Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:16 AM - Re: Hole plugs for the baggage door (Jesse Saint)
2. 05:22 AM - Re: Lycoming IO-540 C4B5 (Russell Daves)
3. 05:27 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming IO-540 C4B5 (Russell Daves)
4. 05:41 AM - Re: Hole plugs for the baggage door (dogsbark@comcast.net)
5. 06:39 AM - Re: Hole plugs for the baggage door (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
6. 06:52 AM - Re: fiberglass course (Jay Rowe)
7. 08:34 AM - Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 (Niko)
8. 08:39 AM - Rolling and fitting of fuselage side skins (Vern W. Smith)
9. 08:57 AM - Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 (Rob Kermanj)
10. 09:23 AM - Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 (John Jessen)
11. 09:31 AM - Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 (David Maib)
12. 11:25 AM - Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 (Niko)
13. 11:58 AM - GPS Antenna (Albert Gardner)
14. 12:23 PM - FW: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (Albert Gardner)
15. 12:27 PM - Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
16. 12:49 PM - Re: FW: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (Jesse Saint)
17. 12:49 PM - Re: GPS Antenna (Dennis Brown)
18. 01:12 PM - Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (Albert Gardner)
19. 01:36 PM - Re: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (McGANN, Ron)
20. 02:03 PM - Re: GPS Antenna (bruce breckenridge)
21. 02:20 PM - Re: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (Jesse Saint)
22. 02:25 PM - FW: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (Albert Gardner)
23. 04:58 PM - Re: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
24. 05:37 PM - Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
25. 06:03 PM - Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
26. 06:04 PM - Re: GPS Antenna (Michael Schipper)
27. 06:20 PM - Re: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (Chris Johnston)
28. 06:23 PM - Re: GPS Antenna (JOHN STARN)
29. 06:41 PM - Re: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel (McGANN, Ron)
30. 09:12 PM - Fiberglass Course (Dave Saylor)
31. 09:19 PM - PIPREP at 34 Hours (DejaVu)
32. 10:05 PM - Re: GPS Antenna (Perry Casson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Hole plugs for the baggage door |
I imagine most people are either leaving them open or covering them with the
upholstery that covers the whole door. That's what we have done. When the
door is closed and locked, nobody can get at the lock anyway, so the only
benefit would be looks. If you are going to cover the door with something,
just let it cover that area, but with a way to pull it back to get at it if
you ever need to.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nick Leonard
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 1:18 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Hole plugs for the baggage door
What is everyone doing for filling the 1.5" hole in the baggage door behind
the lock. Did someone have to buy a bag of 50 snap caps and needs to get
rid of them one at a time or did you just found a convenient source locally
for snap caps? Please don't tell me that one came with your kit.
Nick (#40015, starting on cabin top)
nick@nleonard.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming IO-540 C4B5 |
The RV-10 uses Engine Mount Ears #70456.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Lycoming IO-540 C4B5 |
You cannot go by the Lycoming Parts Catalog regarding which engine uses
which ears. You have to use the small ears #70456 on either the C4B5,
or D4A5 or any other variant of the IO-540 when it is mounted on the
Van's engine mount. It is not the engine that controls the ears needed
but the engine mount.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Hole plugs for the baggage door |
Would this work?
http://www.heyco.com/pages/products/section_3/3-09.html
Sean Blair
#40225
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Nick Leonard" <Nick@NLeonard.com>
What is everyone doing for filling the 1.5" hole in the baggage door behind the
lock. Did someone have to buy a bag of 50 snap caps and needs to get rid of
them one at a time or did you just found a convenient source locally for snap
caps? Please don't tell me that one came with your kit.
Nick (#40015, starting on cabin top)
nick@nleonard.com
<html><body>
<DIV><BR>Would this work?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.heyco.com/pages/products/section_3/3-09.html">http://www.heyco.com/pages/products/section_3/3-09.html</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sean Blair</DIV>
<DIV>#40225</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Nick Leonard"
<Nick@NLeonard.com> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1589" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=562341206-27022007>What is everyone doing
for filling the 1.5" hole in the baggage door behind the lock. Did someone
have to buy a bag of 50 snap caps and needs to get rid of them one at a
time or did you just found a convenient source locally for snap caps? Please
don't tell me that one came with your kit.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: -0.1in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <SPAN class=562341206-27022007>Nick
(#40015, starting on cabin top)</SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: -0.1in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN class=562341206-27022007><A href="mailto:nick@nleonard.com">nick@nleonard.com</A></SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV><PRE><B><FONT face="courier new,courier" size=2 color000000?>
</B></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Hole plugs for the baggage door |
My local Westlake Hardware has nickel plated hole plugs with one that
fit the hole exactly.
Bob #40105
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nick Leonard
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:18 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Hole plugs for the baggage door
What is everyone doing for filling the 1.5" hole in the baggage door
behind the lock. Did someone have to buy a bag of 50 snap caps and
needs to get rid of them one at a time or did you just found a
convenient source locally for snap caps? Please don't tell me that one
came with your kit.
Nick (#40015, starting on cabin top)
nick@nleonard.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass course |
Sign me up but I would appreciate if you could let me know right off if
you have enough bodies as otherwise I would take the composite course.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Saylor
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: fiberglass course
Jay and All,
The SportAir workshops are worthwhile. The composite workshop will
give you an overview of the two types of resin used on RVs and a chance
to work with at least the most common one if not both.
If there is sufficient interest, I would be happy to put together a
more advanced 2 day course that is specific to RV10s, particularly
fitting the top, bonding the door skins, fitting the windows, etc.
Any takers for late April? I'd need at least 8. Cost would be $300,
Saturday and Sunday, in Watsonville (KWVI).
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rowe
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 5:54 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: fiberglass course
Just about to put the cabin on and without any skills or knowledge re.
fiberglass. I see that EAA has a "Composite Course" weekend
instruction class. Is that only for those building glass planes or
would it be something useful to the RV group? Or is there other sources
of instruction out there. Help!! Jay Rowe 40301.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
2/26/2007
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 |
The word cheap is funny in conjuction with current EFIS systems. The curre
nt supposedly "good" EFIS systems run in the high 20's for a 2 screen syste
m. Thats about what I paid for my VW GPS, but it came with a with 200hp ca
r with leather interior and lots of options, attached to it. Amazingly it
also works inside the entire tunnel in Baltimore harbor where my Garmin 196
would stop working as soon as I entered the tunnel. Dynon can make a unit
for about 2K, yes its the low end but 1/4 of the cost of some of the other
ones.. OP, and Chelton want more than two complete Dynon systems just for
a screen to be used as an MFD with no AHRS, or software or anything else.
Thats actuall more than Garmin charges for their GMX200 and its certified
. In fact a single Chelton screen without anything else costs about the sa
me as a complete GRT system with 2 screens and an EIS. Now Garmin has a 90
0 which is going into panels that are going to approach 6 figures. For th
at amount of
money you will be able to get one of the new Cessna LSA, instruments, engi
ne and airframe prebuilt for you and certified although I think I will go f
or a SuperCub or a Maule or maybe even 2 RV12. I saw a Maule taking off at
our airport last year and it was amazing. The angle of attack was so high
that I was sure he was going to stall. But the airplane kept on hanging i
n there and the pilot kept on doing touch and goes at the same high angle o
f attack. =0A=0AThere are too many EFIS companies right now and the indust
ry will consolidate. The Garmin 600 is coming in at $28K and I am guessing
one can get it for about $25K and its certified. That will set a benchmar
k at the high end. Dynon has set the benchmark at the low end and they are
constantly adding more features with moving map being another item they wi
ll add and they will be pushing the low end bar higher and higher. Someone
should be able to comen in at $15K for a non-certified dual screen compara
ble to the G600/Chelton/OP. If someone comes in at that price with a produ
ct comperable to the Cheltons then they will dominate the market.. Maybe w
e need the Japanese to come in and show us how to produce quality affordabl
e products. This company needs to plan on high quality, high volume, and
low cost and price their products accordingly. Now we have more than hal
f a dozen companies competing in the experimental market. Especially at th
e high end there appear to be
too many players. =0A=0AAs far as being able to see under low light and t
urbulence, a concern I also share, the solution has existed for many years
. Its round gauges. Back to basic no frills flying. On a standard altime
ter you can take all the number markings away and you can still tell your a
ltitude to within about 50ft. If you want to maintain 3000ft or 4000ft or
5000ft once there you only have to make sure the big needle is pointing st
raight up no number reading. Thats as simple as it gets.=0A=0ANiko=0A40188
=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: William Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10
.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com; rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday
, February 26, 2007 8:20:24 PM=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flig
ht Displays for RV-10=0A=0A=0AJohn,=0A=0AFirstly, thank you for categorizin
g me as "our Devil's advocate." I'll make sure to update my signature with
that title! =0A=0ASecondly, what does "Turbulence and Unreported Icing co
upled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing
pilot age) in a low light situation=85. " have to do with an EFIS? I alwa
ys feel I need a Rosetta stone and a decoder ring to decipher you messages-
-I guess I'm a little slow with them.=0A=0AAnyway, any cheap gyro can handl
e turbulence, rolls and pitch, what they can't handle is a very slow consta
nt bank turn or speedily erect after power up. None (cheap, expensive, cer
tified or not) will do anything about =93unreported icing, strong headwinds
=94 or lessen you reliance on the =93use of corrective lenses=94=97those fe
atures WOULD indeed be worth considerable more that the $10,000 price diffe
rential. Cheaper does not automatically make an EFIS "VFR" nor does expens
ive make it "IFR." From the FAA=92s perspective there is no such thing as
a VFR or IFR EFIS. All these units, Grand Rapids , Chelton (Sport), BMA, a
nd now WTD ALL use uncertified gyros. Some of these gyros are better than
others but NONE are certified and only individual opinions make one "VFR" a
nd another "IFR." All indications are that WTC will be using the Crossbow
425EX not the certified 500GA gyro.=0A =0A =0ABill,=0A =0AThanks again for
the information. I=92ll look forward to seeing your EFIS at Sun-N-Fun or O
SH . Let us know when you have an installation manual and wiring diagrams
on your website. I assume you will be using the ARINC 429 bus connection t
o/from the 4/530 and the autopilot?=0A =0A =0AWilliam - "our Devil=92s Advo
cate"=0Ahttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ATurbulence and Unreport
ed Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due t
o advancing pilot age) in a low light situation=85. Now that gets my attent
ion. I think your thought process, research, design background and final d
ecisions will prove to offer the RV-10 builders a great option to Butt up a
gainst Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin. I ruled out the cheaper VFR of
ferings long ago. It is down to painfully thoughtful and analytic evaluati
on at this point. I also look forward to Deems=92 report flying behind his
OP Tech screens.=0A =0ABill, Thanks for the investment and the answer to o
ur Devil=92s Advocate.=0A =0AJohn Cox =0A#40600 =0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-rv1
0-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] O
n Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey=0ASent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:07 PM=0ATo:
rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: re: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Disp
lays for RV-10=0A =0AHi William-=0AThanks for the good question. It require
d me to remember all the reasons for each decision of each step over the la
st 3.5 years. Its not a short answer.=0A =0AWhy is it so expensive?=0A =0AI
, more than any other, would like our primary flight display "PFD" to be le
ss expensive. However, if you look at the complete panel prices you will se
e that you receive all the high end features without the high end pricing.
In the end, our price was determined by our objective: provide a high quali
ty, solid IFR platform. Kindly understand that "solid" means with and witho
ut turbulence. Lets disect this objective.=0A =0AWe started with the best c
omponents available, integrated a display computer, and filled in the holes
. Garmin 430/530 was chosen as one cornerstone. This unit has certification
s that allow you to file /G, an easy map update process, Glideslope, Locali
zer, GPS, and COM receivers. Its a mature product that you can afford. Note
that most Chelton owners have a G430 installed. TIP: for $500 you can get
the G430 downloaded with terrain capability - not TAWS, just terrain warnin
g. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we show the numbers that you typically see on th
e right side of the G430 display with map selected. Use the menu button and
remove this area from the G430 increasing your map size by 50%!=0A =0AAll
the suggested panels are FAA legal.=0A =0AMission is cross country IFR. Thi
s is the rule, not the exception. Many innovations were added to support th
is mission, such as, fuel management, wind, prop setting, etc. We don't app
roach IFR as a challenge. With proper instrumentation, we expect it to be c
omfortable with the grandkids (or if your ahead of the game - kids) in the
back.=0A =0AWe allowed for a robust backup plan with more than one layer. I
f you look closely at the suggested panels you will see 2 & 1/2 levels of b
ackup. The independently sensored autopilot is the half level. Note that ea
ch subsequent level becomes simplier. My objective to the all-in-one glass
PFD is the backup becomes more complex. Typically, one choses another simi
lar unit as backup with the advertised swap displays in case of failure. It
requires very complex logic to do this automatically, and there are hardwa
re and software components added to support this functionality which makes
it less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the engineering depar
tment would call "scope". They would list all the things that could go wron
g with their component and provide a recovery procedure. The fault with thi
s scope is the pilot is subject to any problem that occurs - not just a pre
defined set of PFD problems. =0A =0ANowhere can you purchase a glass panel
that is as deeply integrated into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel l
evels, flaps, door sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, a
nd additional components.=0A =0AThe price of our product would be much more
appealing if we removed the gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only manu
facturer of solid state gyros that meets our objective of a "solid IFR plat
form". Since there is only one qualifying choice I did not want our custome
rs to shop the gyro and attempt to save money thinking they were still purc
hasing a "solid IFR platform". Perhaps, in the future there will be other s
uitable choices and we could provide options. Now I must talk about gyros s
o you won't believe that this is an arbitrary judgement.=0A =0ABefore I ord
ered the RV10 kit (and I am kit #29), I swore that I would never put a blan
kity, blank vacuum system in another plane ... ever. So, my approach was to
create a solid state gyro that would be the crux of an IFR panel. I purcha
sed the magnetic sensors, accelerometers, and rate gyros necessary to build
my own gyro. After prototyping each of the components and thinking what wo
uld be required to produce a reliable 360 degree, accurate and inexpensive
gyro the answer was it is simply not possible because of the cost of the en
gineering test equipment required. You need a very accurate rate table, a t
emperature chamber to characterize sensor behavior, calibrated orientation,
tight production controls, and the ability to measure and calibrate each u
nit shipped. It was clearly a product for a very serious engineering compan
y dedicated to this purpose. This was not my intended business, so I abando
ned this effort and began shopping.=0A =0AMy criteria for purchase was/is:
=0A 1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing cabability
=0A 2. Published acuracy specifications.=0A 3. Experi
enced with aircraft applications=0A 4. Birth certificate (calibr
ation) for each unit=0A 5. Price=0A =0ANeedless to say, only Cro
ssbow met these requirements.=0A =0ALooking to the PFD's future, we offer m
ultiple, defined components rather than a single box. Software upgrades are
simple, changing out the entire cpu is simple, updating the display is sim
ple, etc. Since the purchased components have clearly defined interfaces an
d our manufactured components have standard, extensible protocol links with
the display computer its relatively easy to keep improving the product. We
don't ever want to be in the position of squeezing life out of a 6.4" disp
lay long after the market has moved on.=0A =0ARegarding your specific quest
ion about the competition $10,000 under our price: Look close, they are all
VFR components. The major reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, an
d do not meet the first four purchase requirements (above). Most of these m
anufacturers clearly state that they are for VFR usage - its the purchasers
that streach the usage into IFR situations. Trading money on the ground fo
r a challenge in the air is a bad idea.=0A =0ARegarding your question about
the Garmin 600 $10,000 over our price: This package was designed to direct
ly compete with Chelton. Its not the best of everything, just better than C
helton. Choose a display you will be comfortable looking at for many hours.
They tilted two 6.4" displays on end with low resolution and unknown brigh
tness. Our display is 10.4" with 1024 x 768 resolution and 1200 nits of bri
ghtness. These are engineering numbers and cannot be compared with a "sunli
ght bright" phase the marketing weenie penned. The visibility from an RV10
is wonderful - but the downside is it lets in a lot of sun.=0A =0AWhat comp
uter are you purchasing? Does it have extra capacity for future upgrades, o
r is it an economical implementation that needs a hardware upgrade for futu
re improvements?=0A =0AI looked once again for the accuracy specifications
of the Garmin gyro with no luck. Nothing is published. I have become very h
ard headed on this subject because I view the gyro as the crux of an IFR fl
ight. Remember that our IFR mission includes turbulence. This is when I exp
ect to feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if this is a lucky day or not
.=0A =0ABill DeRouchey=0AN939SB, flying=0Abill@wtdaviationtechnology.com=0A
=0A=0A=0AWilliam Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10.com> wrote:=0ABill,=0A=0AIf you do
n't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a moment. Looki
ng through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro EFIS system
is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display. What additional
does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent more established
Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type certificated Gar
min G600 system? Please don't take this question the wrong way, only it se
ems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an equivalent experi
mental system that does not yet have any track record.=0A=0AWilliam=0Ahttp:
===========
Message 8
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| Subject: | Rolling and fitting of fuselage side skins |
William,
Thanks for posting the pictures and idea of using 1 =BD" angle iron for
rolling the fuselage side skins on your web site. I used this method the
past weekend in place of the hardwood form called out in the plans. It
worked great! I did leave the blue plastic in place until after the
rolling process was complete (on the forward skins the plans say peal it
off before rolling them.)
If anyone else is interested in this, it can be found at the following
link.RV-10 Fuselage Construction - Fuselage Side Skins
<http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/08fuselage/index29.html>
Thanks again,
Vern Smith (#324 fuselage skins fitted:)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 |
Things put in perspective! I enjoyed the reading.
Do not archive
On Feb 27, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Niko wrote:
> The word cheap is funny in conjuction with current EFIS systems.
> The current supposedly "good" EFIS systems run in the high 20's for
> a 2 screen system. Thats about what I paid for my VW GPS, but it
> came with a with 200hp car with leather interior and lots of
> options, attached to it. Amazingly it also works inside the entire
> tunnel in Baltimore harbor where my Garmin 196 would stop working
> as soon as I entered the tunnel. Dynon can make a unit for about
> 2K, yes its the low end but 1/4 of the cost of some of the other
> ones.. OP, and Chelton want more than two complete Dynon systems
> just for a screen to be used as an MFD with no AHRS, or software
> or anything else. Thats actuall more than Garmin charges for their
> GMX200 and its certified. In fact a single Chelton screen without
> anything else costs about the same as a complete GRT system with 2
> screens and an EIS. Now Garmin has a 900 which is going into
> panels that are going to approach 6 figures. For that amount of
> money you will be able to get one of the new Cessna LSA,
> instruments, engine and airframe prebuilt for you and certified
> although I think I will go for a SuperCub or a Maule or maybe even
> 2 RV12. I saw a Maule taking off at our airport last year and it
> was amazing. The angle of attack was so high that I was sure he
> was going to stall. But the airplane kept on hanging in there and
> the pilot kept on doing touch and goes at the same high angle of
> attack.
>
> There are too many EFIS companies right now and the industry will
> consolidate. The Garmin 600 is coming in at $28K and I am guessing
> one can get it for about $25K and its certified. That will set a
> benchmark at the high end. Dynon has set the benchmark at the low
> end and they are constantly adding more features with moving map
> being another item they will add and they will be pushing the low
> end bar higher and higher. Someone should be able to comen in at
> $15K for a non-certified dual screen comparable to the G600/Chelton/
> OP. If someone comes in at that price with a product comperable to
> the Cheltons then they will dominate the market.. Maybe we need
> the Japanese to come in and show us how to produce quality
> affordable products. This company needs to plan on high quality,
> high volume, and low cost and price their products accordingly.
> Now we have more than half a dozen companies competing in the
> experimental market. Especially at the high end there appear to be
> too many players.
>
> As far as being able to see under low light and turbulence, a
> concern I also share, the solution has existed for many years.
> Its round gauges. Back to basic no frills flying. On a standard
> altimeter you can take all the number markings away and you can
> still tell your altitude to within about 50ft. If you want to
> maintain 3000ft or 4000ft or 5000ft once there you only have to
> make sure the big needle is pointing straight up no number reading.
> Thats as simple as it gets.
>
> Niko
> 40188
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: William Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com; rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 8:20:24 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10
>
> John,
>
> Firstly, thank you for categorizing me as "our Devil's advocate."
> I'll make sure to update my signature with that title!
>
> Secondly, what does "Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with
> strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing
> pilot age) in a low light situation=85. " have to do with an EFIS? I
> always feel I need a Rosetta stone and a decoder ring to decipher
> you messages--I guess I'm a little slow with them.
>
> Anyway, any cheap gyro can handle turbulence, rolls and pitch, what
> they can't handle is a very slow constant bank turn or speedily
> erect after power up. None (cheap, expensive, certified or not)
> will do anything about =93unreported icing, strong headwinds=94 or
> lessen you reliance on the =93use of corrective lenses=94=97those
> features WOULD indeed be worth considerable more that the $10,000
> price differential. Cheaper does not automatically make an EFIS
> "VFR" nor does expensive make it "IFR." =46rom the FAA=92s
perspective
> there is no such thing as a VFR or IFR EFIS. All these units,
> Grand Rapids , Chelton (Sport), BMA, and now WTD ALL use
> uncertified gyros. Some of these gyros are better than others but
> NONE are certified and only individual opinions make one "VFR" and
> another "IFR." All indications are that WTC will be using the
> Crossbow 425EX not the certified 500GA gyro.
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Thanks again for the information. I=92ll look forward to seeing your
> EFIS at Sun-N-Fun or OSH . Let us know when you have an
> installation manual and wiring diagrams on your website. I assume
> you will be using the ARINC 429 bus connection to/from the 4/530
> and the autopilot?
>
>
> William - "our Devil=92s Advocate"
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
>
>
> Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and
> my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low
> light situation=85. Now that gets my attention. I think your thought
> process, research, design background and final decisions will prove
> to offer the RV-10 builders a great option to Butt up against
> Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin. I ruled out the cheaper VFR
> offerings long ago. It is down to painfully thoughtful and
> analytic evaluation at this point. I also look forward to Deems=92
> report flying behind his OP Tech screens.
>
>
> Bill, Thanks for the investment and the answer to our Devil=92s
> Advocate.
>
>
> John Cox
> #40600
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:07 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: re: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10
>
>
> Hi William-
>
> Thanks for the good question. It required me to remember all the
> reasons for each decision of each step over the last 3.5 years. Its
> not a short answer.
>
>
> Why is it so expensive?
>
>
> I, more than any other, would like our primary flight display "PFD"
> to be less expensive. However, if you look at the complete panel
> prices you will see that you receive all the high end features
> without the high end pricing. In the end, our price was determined
> by our objective: provide a high quality, solid IFR platform.
> Kindly understand that "solid" means with and without turbulence.
> Lets disect this objective.
>
>
> We started with the best components available, integrated a display
> computer, and filled in the holes. Garmin 430/530 was chosen as one
> cornerstone. This unit has certifications that allow you to file /
> G, an easy map update process, Glideslope, Localizer, GPS, and COM
> receivers. Its a mature product that you can afford. Note that most
> Chelton owners have a G430 installed. TIP: for $500 you can get the
> G430 downloaded with terrain capability - not TAWS, just terrain
> warning. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we show the numbers that you
> typically see on the right side of the G430 display with map
> selected. Use the menu button and remove this area from the G430
> increasing your map size by 50%!
>
>
> All the suggested panels are FAA legal.
>
>
> Mission is cross country IFR. This is the rule, not the exception.
> Many innovations were added to support this mission, such as, fuel
> management, wind, prop setting, etc. We don't approach IFR as a
> challenge. With proper instrumentation, we expect it to be
> comfortable with the grandkids (or if your ahead of the game -
> kids) in the back.
>
>
> We allowed for a robust backup plan with more than one layer. If
> you look closely at the suggested panels you will see 2 & 1/2
> levels of backup. The independently sensored autopilot is the half
> level. Note that each subsequent level becomes simplier. My
> objective to the all-in-one glass PFD is the backup becomes more
> complex. Typically, one choses another similar unit as backup with
> the advertised swap displays in case of failure. It requires very
> complex logic to do this automatically, and there are hardware and
> software components added to support this functionality which makes
> it less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the
> engineering department would call "scope". They would list all the
> things that could go wrong with their component and provide a
> recovery procedure. The fault with this scope is the pilot is
> subject to any problem that occurs - not just a predefined set of
> PFD problems.
>
>
> Nowhere can you purchase a glass panel that is as deeply integrated
> into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel levels, flaps, door
> sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, and
> additional components.
>
>
> The price of our product would be much more appealing if we removed
> the gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only manufacturer of solid
> state gyros that meets our objective of a "solid IFR platform".
> Since there is only one qualifying choice I did not want our
> customers to shop the gyro and attempt to save money thinking they
> were still purchasing a "solid IFR platform". Perhaps, in the
> future there will be other suitable choices and we could provide
> options. Now I must talk about gyros so you won't believe that this
> is an arbitrary judgement.
>
>
> Before I ordered the RV10 kit (and I am kit #29), I swore that I
> would never put a blankity, blank vacuum system in another
> plane ... ever. So, my approach was to create a solid state gyro
> that would be the crux of an IFR panel. I purchased the magnetic
> sensors, accelerometers, and rate gyros necessary to build my own
> gyro. After prototyping each of the components and thinking what
> would be required to produce a reliable 360 degree, accurate and
> inexpensive gyro the answer was it is simply not possible because
> of the cost of the engineering test equipment required. You need a
> very accurate rate table, a temperature chamber to characterize
> sensor behavior, calibrated orientation, tight production controls,
> and the ability to measure and calibrate each unit shipped. It was
> clearly a product for a very serious engineering company dedicated
> to this purpose. This was not my intended business, so I abandoned
> this effort and began shopping.
>
>
> My criteria for purchase was/is:
>
> 1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing
> cabability
>
> 2. Published acuracy specifications.
>
> 3. Experienced with aircraft applications
>
> 4. Birth certificate (calibration) for each unit
>
> 5. Price
>
>
> Needless to say, only Crossbow met these requirements.
>
>
> Looking to the PFD's future, we offer multiple, defined components
> rather than a single box. Software upgrades are simple, changing
> out the entire cpu is simple, updating the display is simple, etc.
> Since the purchased components have clearly defined interfaces and
> our manufactured components have standard, extensible protocol
> links with the display computer its relatively easy to keep
> improving the product. We don't ever want to be in the position of
> squeezing life out of a 6.4" display long after the market has
> moved on.
>
>
> Regarding your specific question about the competition $10,000
> under our price: Look close, they are all VFR components. The major
> reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, and do not meet the
> first four purchase requirements (above). Most of these
> manufacturers clearly state that they are for VFR usage - its the
> purchasers that streach the usage into IFR situations. Trading
> money on the ground for a challenge in the air is a bad idea.
>
>
> Regarding your question about the Garmin 600 $10,000 over our
> price: This package was designed to directly compete with Chelton.
> Its not the best of everything, just better than Chelton. Choose a
> display you will be comfortable looking at for many hours. They
> tilted two 6.4" displays on end with low resolution and unknown
> brightness. Our display is 10.4" with 1024 x 768 resolution and
> 1200 nits of brightness. These are engineering numbers and cannot
> be compared with a "sunlight bright" phase the marketing weenie
> penned. The visibility from an RV10 is wonderful - but the downside
> is it lets in a lot of sun.
>
>
> What computer are you purchasing? Does it have extra capacity for
> future upgrades, or is it an economical implementation that needs a
> hardware upgrade for future improvements?
>
>
> I looked once again for the accuracy specifications of the Garmin
> gyro with no luck. Nothing is published. I have become very hard
> headed on this subject because I view the gyro as the crux of an
> IFR flight. Remember that our IFR mission includes turbulence. This
> is when I expect to feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if this
> is a lucky day or not.
>
>
> Bill DeRouchey
>
> N939SB, flying
>
> bill@wtdaviationtechnology.com
>
>
> William Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10.com> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> If you don't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for
> a moment. Looking through your site I see that your single panel,
> single gyro EFIS system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an
> second display. What additional does you system offer at $10,000
> more than an equivalent more established Grand Rapids system or
> only $10,000 less than a fully type certificated Garmin G600
> system? Please don't take this question the wrong way, only it
> seems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an
> equivalent experimental system that does not yet have any track
> record.
>
> William
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List==
>
List
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 |
I actually like this post (thanks Niko). Normally I'm stupid, but when it
comes to this topic, I'm really stupid.
For example, someone described to me the beautiful AF-3000 series (and I'm
just using Rob's stuff as an one example) as simply a replacement for the
normal six pack. Well, okay. Now, add to that some "normal" certified
gps/nav/com, and don't we have an IFR capable system? You will want some
round gauges in there for backup, or even an MX20/200 for terrain, traffic,
weather display. I'm not sure what that prices out to be, but other than
HITS, what am I missing here? Garmin says they are fully integrated. Ok.
But I'm not quite sure what that means, and if that is better, why is it
better? And, does the extra functionality or convenience you get justify
the cost?
Not too long ago, a beautifully laid out fully IFR panel would not be much
more. And why do we need two screens? You get all the engine gauges you
need with the AF-3000 series. If you want your passenger to fly, fine, but
is there a requirement? You might need a couple backup standard engine
gauges if you lack the second screen, but other than enabling the passenger
to fly....? Again, I'm really stupid about this stuff.
Anyway, do not archive
John Jessen
328
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10
The word cheap is funny in conjuction with current EFIS systems. The
current supposedly "good" EFIS systems run in the high 20's for a 2 screen
system. Thats about what I paid for my VW GPS, but it came with a with
200hp car with leather interior and lots of options, attached to it.
Amazingly it also works inside the entire tunnel in Baltimore harbor where
my Garmin 196 would stop working as soon as I entered the tunnel. Dynon can
make a unit for about 2K, yes its the low end but 1/4 of the cost of some of
the other ones.. OP, and Chelton want more than two complete Dynon systems
just for a screen to be used as an MFD with no AHRS, or software or
anything else. Thats actuall more than Garmin charges for their GMX200 and
its certified. In fact a single Chelton screen without anything else costs
about the same as a complete GRT system with 2 screens and an EIS. Now
Garmin has a 900 which is going into panels that are going to approach 6
figures. For that amount of money you will be able to get one of the new
Cessna LSA, instruments, engine and airframe prebuilt for you and certified
although I think I will go for a SuperCub or a Maule or maybe even 2 RV12.
I saw a Maule taking off at our airport last year and it was amazing. The
angle of attack was so high that I was sure he was going to stall. But the
airplane kept on hanging in there and the pilot kept on doing touch and goes
at the same high angle of attack.
There are too many EFIS companies right now and the industry will
consolidate. The Garmin 600 is coming in at $28K and I am guessing one can
get it for about $25K and its certified. That will set a benchmark at the
high end. Dynon has set the benchmark at the low end and they are
constantly adding more features with moving map being another item they will
add and they will be pushing the low end bar higher and higher. Someone
should be able to comen in at $15K for a non-certified dual screen
comparable to the G600/Chelton/OP. If someone comes in at that price with a
product comperable to the Cheltons then they will dominate the market..
Maybe we need the Japanese to come in and show us how to produce quality
affordable products. This company needs to plan on high quality, high
volume, and low cost and price their products accordingly. Now we have
more than half a dozen companies competing in the experimental market.
Especially at the high end there appear to be too many players.
As far as being able to see under low light and turbulence, a concern I also
share, the solution has existed for many years. Its round gauges. Back to
basic no frills flying. On a standard altimeter you can take all the number
markings away and you can still tell your altitude to within about 50ft. If
you want to maintain 3000ft or 4000ft or 5000ft once there you only have to
make sure the big needle is pointing straight up no number reading. Thats as
simple as it gets.
Niko
40188
----- Original Message ----
From: William Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 8:20:24 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10
John,
Firstly, thank you for categorizing me as "our Devil's advocate." I'll make
sure to update my signature with that title!
Secondly, what does "Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong
headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a
low light situation.. " have to do with an EFIS? I always feel I need a
Rosetta stone and a decoder ring to decipher you messages--I guess I'm a
little slow with them.
Anyway, any cheap gyro can handle turbulence, rolls and pitch, what they
can't handle is a very slow constant bank turn or speedily erect after power
up. None (cheap, expensive, certified or not) will do anything about
"unreported icing, strong headwinds" or lessen you reliance on the "use of
corrective lenses"-those features WOULD indeed be worth considerable more
that the $10,000 price differential. Cheaper does not automatically make an
EFIS "VFR" nor does expensive make it "IFR." From the FAA's perspective
there is no such thing as a VFR or IFR EFIS. All these units, Grand Rapids
, Chelton (Sport), BMA, and now WTD ALL use uncertified gyros. Some of
these gyros are better than others but NONE are certified and only
individual opinions make one "VFR" and another "IFR." All indications are
that WTC will be using the Crossbow 425EX not the certified 500GA gyro.
Bill,
Thanks again for the information. I'll look forward to seeing your EFIS at
Sun-N-Fun or OSH . Let us know when you have an installation manual and
wiring diagrams on your website. I assume you will be using the ARINC 429
bus connection to/from the 4/530 and the autopilot?
William - "our Devil's Advocate"
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
_____
Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of
Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation.. Now
that gets my attention. I think your thought process, research, design
background and final decisions will prove to offer the RV-10 builders a
great option to Butt up against Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin. I
ruled out the cheaper VFR offerings long ago. It is down to painfully
thoughtful and analytic evaluation at this point. I also look forward to
Deems' report flying behind his OP Tech screens.
Bill, Thanks for the investment and the answer to our Devil's Advocate.
John Cox
#40600
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:07 PM
Subject: re: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10
Hi William-
Thanks for the good question. It required me to remember all the reasons for
each decision of each step over the last 3.5 years. Its not a short answer.
Why is it so expensive?
I, more than any other, would like our primary flight display "PFD" to be
less expensive. However, if you look at the complete panel prices you will
see that you receive all the high end features without the high end pricing.
In the end, our price was determined by our objective: provide a high
quality, solid IFR platform. Kindly understand that "solid" means with and
without turbulence. Lets disect this objective.
We started with the best components available, integrated a display
computer, and filled in the holes. Garmin 430/530 was chosen as one
cornerstone. This unit has certifications that allow you to file /G, an easy
map update process, Glideslope, Localizer, GPS, and COM receivers. Its a
mature product that you can afford. Note that most Chelton owners have a
G430 installed. TIP: for $500 you can get the G430 downloaded with terrain
capability - not TAWS, just terrain warning. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we show
the numbers that you typically see on the right side of the G430 display
with map selected. Use the menu button and remove this area from the G430
increasing your map size by 50%!
All the suggested panels are FAA legal.
Mission is cross country IFR. This is the rule, not the exception. Many
innovations were added to support this mission, such as, fuel management,
wind, prop setting, etc. We don't approach IFR as a challenge. With proper
instrumentation, we expect it to be comfortable with the grandkids (or if
your ahead of the game - kids) in the back.
We allowed for a robust backup plan with more than one layer. If you look
closely at the suggested panels you will see 2 & 1/2 levels of backup. The
independently sensored autopilot is the half level. Note that each
subsequent level becomes simplier. My objective to the all-in-one glass PFD
is the backup becomes more complex. Typically, one choses another similar
unit as backup with the advertised swap displays in case of failure. It
requires very complex logic to do this automatically, and there are hardware
and software components added to support this functionality which makes it
less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the engineering
department would call "scope". They would list all the things that could go
wrong with their component and provide a recovery procedure. The fault with
this scope is the pilot is subject to any problem that occurs - not just a
predefined set of PFD problems.
Nowhere can you purchase a glass panel that is as deeply integrated into the
RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel levels, flaps, door sensors, and stall
warning to minimize weight, wiring, and additional components.
The price of our product would be much more appealing if we removed the
gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only manufacturer of solid state gyros
that meets our objective of a "solid IFR platform". Since there is only one
qualifying choice I did not want our customers to shop the gyro and attempt
to save money thinking they were still purchasing a "solid IFR platform".
Perhaps, in the future there will be other suitable choices and we could
provide options. Now I must talk about gyros so you won't believe that this
is an arbitrary judgement.
Before I ordered the RV10 kit (and I am kit #29), I swore that I would never
put a blankity, blank vacuum system in another plane ... ever. So, my
approach was to create a solid state gyro that would be the crux of an IFR
panel. I purchased the magnetic sensors, accelerometers, and rate gyros
necessary to build my own gyro. After prototyping each of the components and
thinking what would be required to produce a reliable 360 degree, accurate
and inexpensive gyro the answer was it is simply not possible because of the
cost of the engineering test equipment required. You need a very accurate
rate table, a temperature chamber to characterize sensor behavior,
calibrated orientation, tight production controls, and the ability to
measure and calibrate each unit shipped. It was clearly a product for a very
serious engineering company dedicated to this purpose. This was not my
intended business, so I abandoned this effort and began shopping.
My criteria for purchase was/is:
1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing cabability
2. Published acuracy specifications.
3. Experienced with aircraft applications
4. Birth certificate (calibration) for each unit
5. Price
Needless to say, only Crossbow met these requirements.
Looking to the PFD's future, we offer multiple, defined components rather
than a single box. Software upgrades are simple, changing out the entire cpu
is simple, updating the display is simple, etc. Since the purchased
components have clearly defined interfaces and our manufactured components
have standard, extensible protocol links with the display computer its
relatively easy to keep improving the product. We don't ever want to be in
the position of squeezing life out of a 6.4" display long after the market
has moved on.
Regarding your specific question about the competition $10,000 under our
price: Look close, they are all VFR components. The major reason is their
gyros are of dubious quality, and do not meet the first four purchase
requirements (above). Most of these manufacturers clearly state that they
are for VFR usage - its the purchasers that streach the usage into IFR
situations. Trading money on the ground for a challenge in the air is a bad
idea.
Regarding your question about the Garmin 600 $10,000 over our price: This
package was designed to directly compete with Chelton. Its not the best of
everything, just better than Chelton. Choose a display you will be
comfortable looking at for many hours. They tilted two 6.4" displays on end
with low resolution and unknown brightness. Our display is 10.4" with 1024 x
768 resolution and 1200 nits of brightness. These are engineering numbers
and cannot be compared with a "sunlight bright" phase the marketing weenie
penned. The visibility from an RV10 is wonderful - but the downside is it
lets in a lot of sun.
What computer are you purchasing? Does it have extra capacity for future
upgrades, or is it an economical implementation that needs a hardware
upgrade for future improvements?
I looked once again for the accuracy specifications of the Garmin gyro with
no luck. Nothing is published. I have become very hard headed on this
subject because I view the gyro as the crux of an IFR flight. Remember that
our IFR mission includes turbulence. This is when I expect to feel
comfortable and it doesn't matter if this is a lucky day or not.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
bill@wtdaviationtechnology.com
William Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10.com> wrote:
Bill,
If you don't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a
moment. Looking through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro
EFIS system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display. What
additional does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent more
established Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type
certificated Garmin G600 system? Please don't take this question the wrong
way, only it seems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an
equivalent experimental system that does not yet have any track record.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List==
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 |
On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:
This company needs to plan on high quality, high volume, and low cost
I imagine the "high volume" could be the problem. The amateur built
market is very healthy, but I doubt if the numbers will constitute
anything approaching what a manufacturer would consider high volume.
do not archive
David Maib
40559
QB wings
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 |
Understood David, however, at truly high volumes the equivalent of a G600 w
ould probably be something like $2K or $3K or even less. I am talking abo
ut $15K here which is still a lot of money for two screens a software and s
ome gizmos. If you double triple or quadruple your volume there is a very
significant drop to the development cost per unit and that will be done thr
ough consolidation of all the small players. Additionally, the lower pri
ce will itself increase demand. =0A=0ANiko=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A----
- Original Message ----=0AFrom: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@
matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:31:59 PM=0ASubject: Re:
RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Feb 27, 2
007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:=0A=0AThis company needs to plan on high quali
ty, high volume, and low cost =0A=0A=0AI imagine the "high volume" could
be the problem. The amateur built market is very healthy, but I doubt if th
e numbers will constitute anything approaching what a manufacturer would co
nsider high volume.=0A=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0ADavid Maib=0A40559=0AQB
======
Message 13
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I'm planning on using a 496 for a GPS unit. Has anyone else flying with
this
GPS? If so, did you use an external antenna, where did you mount it and
what
model antenna is it? Or, is the internal antenna OK?
Thanks in advance,
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | FW: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel that are still empty.
They are located near the flap motor, near the top of the tunnel and are
arranged in a vertical pattern. They show up in the plans from place to
place but I can't see what they are for. Early on I thought they would be
for rudder cable guides but if they are I have overlooked installing them
and they don't seem to be lined up correctly if that is the intended use.
Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 15
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| Subject: | Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 |
Which will increase liability and cause the vendors insurance rates to
increase, not only is there a cost of development and the product, but
the offset for liability must also be considered and in the day and age
of $10.5 mill lawsuits for killing yourself, a vendor must carry huge
amounts of insurance.
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10
Understood David, however, at truly high volumes the equivalent of a
G600 would probably be something like $2K or $3K or even less. I am
talking about $15K here which is still a lot of money for two screens a
software and some gizmos. If you double triple or quadruple your volume
there is a very significant drop to the development cost per unit and
that will be done through consolidation of all the small players.
Additionally, the lower price will itself increase demand.
Niko
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:31:59 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10
On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:
This company needs to plan on high quality, high volume, and low cost
I imagine the "high volume" could be the problem. The amateur built
market is very healthy, but I doubt if the numbers will constitute
anything approaching what a manufacturer would consider high volume.
do not archive
David Maib
40559
QB wings
Message 16
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| Subject: | FW: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
I would need a little more detail. The rudder cable holes are in the top
corners of that area, and side by side, not vertically aligned. Do you have
a picture? What size are the holes? Someone with that part open will
probably be able to help more.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: RV10-List: FW: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel that are still empty.
They are located near the flap motor, near the top of the tunnel and are
arranged in a vertical pattern. They show up in the plans from place to
place but I can't see what they are for. Early on I thought they would be
for rudder cable guides but if they are I have overlooked installing them
and they don't seem to be lined up correctly if that is the intended use.
Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 17
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Yes, the remote antenna that comes with it work fine just put it up on
top of the glare shield.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Albert Gardner
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RV10-List: GPS Antenna
I'm planning on using a 496 for a GPS unit. Has anyone else flying
with this GPS? If so, did you use an external antenna, where did you
mount it and what model antenna is it? Or, is the internal antenna OK?
Thanks in advance,
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 18
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| Subject: | Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel on each side that are
still empty as I well along in construction. They are located near the flap
motor, near the top of the tunnel and are arranged in a vertical pattern.
They show up in the plans from place to place but I can't see what they are
for. Early on I thought they would be for rudder cable guides but if they
are I have overlooked installing them and they don't seem to be lined up
correctly if that is the intended use. Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 19
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| Subject: | Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
Albert,
The holes are for rudder cable guides - See page 38-9. Installation is
not mentioned in the instructions, but they are in the drawings. I have
seen several web sites with these guides missing.
cheers,
Ron
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:42 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel on each
side that are still empty as I well along in construction. They are
located near the flap motor, near the top of the tunnel and are arranged
in a vertical pattern. They show up in the plans from place to place but
I can't see what they are for. Early on I thought they would be for
rudder cable guides but if they are I have overlooked installing them
and they don't seem to be lined up correctly if that is the intended
use. Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 20
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Albert;
My wife and I have been using the 396 with both external antennas, one being
XM Weather/Radio. We learned right away that when flying northerly, the GPS
antenna was best mounted in the back window of our C172, because it lost
signal quite often. Maybe it was due to the high wings. Once we learned
the game, we've been very pleased with the performance of the unit.
Ideally, a permanent GPS antenna on top of the aircraft would give the best
coverage.
Bruce
40018 Wings
Message 21
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| Subject: | Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
OK, now I see. Little holes, like #40 holes, on the side of the tunnel, not
on the bulkhead. They are being riveted in the attached picture. The part
is F-1016H and can be found in the plans on page 38-9.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
Albert,
The holes are for rudder cable guides - See page 38-9. Installation is not
mentioned in the instructions, but they are in the drawings. I have seen
several web sites with these guides missing.
cheers,
Ron
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:42 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel on each side that are
still empty as I well along in construction. They are located near the flap
motor, near the top of the tunnel and are arranged in a vertical pattern.
They show up in the plans from place to place but I can't see what they are
for. Early on I thought they would be for rudder cable guides but if they
are I have overlooked installing them and they don't seem to be lined up
correctly if that is the intended use. Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | FW: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
OK, I've attached a pic and circled the holes in question.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
I would need a little more detail. The rudder cable holes are in the
top
corners of that area, and side by side, not vertically aligned. Do you
have
a picture? What size are the holes? Someone with that part open will
probably be able to help more.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: RV10-List: FW: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel that are still
empty.
They are located near the flap motor, near the top of the tunnel and are
arranged in a vertical pattern. They show up in the plans from place to
place but I can't see what they are for. Early on I thought they would
be
for rudder cable guides but if they are I have overlooked installing
them
and they don't seem to be lined up correctly if that is the intended
use.
Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
Yep, one of those sites would be mine darn it. Nothing worse than
having everything all hooked up and realizing you forgot them. :-)
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
Albert,
The holes are for rudder cable guides - See page 38-9. Installation is
not mentioned in the instructions, but they are in the drawings. I have
seen several web sites with these guides missing.
cheers,
Ron
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:42 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel on each
side that are still empty as I well along in construction. They are
located near the flap motor, near the top of the tunnel and are arranged
in a vertical pattern. They show up in the plans from place to place but
I can't see what they are for. Early on I thought they would be for
rudder cable guides but if they are I have overlooked installing them
and they don't seem to be lined up correctly if that is the intended
use. Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 |
In a message dated 2/27/07 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dmaib@mac.com writes:
On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:
This company needs to plan on high quality, high volume, and low cost
I imagine the "high volume" could be the problem. The amateur built market
is very healthy, but I doubt if the numbers will constitute anything
approaching what a manufacturer would consider high volume.
I believe if you check the numbers, Vans is out selling Mooney, Piper,
Commander, Cessna and all the others put together each year except Cirrus...
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10 |
He wishes! Textron's Cessna unit last year delivered 1239 fully
outfitted aircraft, 850 of which were piston.
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
GRANSCOTT@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10
In a message dated 2/27/07 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dmaib@mac.com writes:
On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:
This company needs to plan on high quality, high volume, and
low cost
I imagine the "high volume" could be the problem. The amateur
built market is very healthy, but I doubt if the numbers will constitute
anything approaching what a manufacturer would consider high volume.
I believe if you check the numbers, Vans is out selling Mooney,
Piper, Commander, Cessna and all the others put together each year
except Cirrus...
________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Message 26
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|
I put the antenna under the cowl. It works great.
http://www.my9a.com/img/finish/misc4/gpsantenna.jpg
Regards,
Mike Schipper
RV-10 #40576 - www.rvten.com
RV-9A - N63MS - www.my9a.com
On Feb 27, 2007, at 1:57 PM, Albert Gardner wrote:
> I=92m planning on using a 496 for a GPS unit. Has anyone else flying
> with this GPS? If so, did you use an external antenna, where did
> you mount it and what model antenna is it? Or, is the internal
> antenna OK?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Albert Gardner
>
> Yuma, AZ
>
>
List
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
Hahahaha. It's funny because those little aluminum pieces for the snap
bushings are the ONLY pieces in my entire aircraft that weren't primed
with AKZO primer because it was late, and I discovered it as you did in
the plans picture only, and I had already run the cables, so I cheated
and shot it with a lesser rattle can primer. The only grey primer on
the aircraft. Probably one for the gotcha page.
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net <http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/>
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
Yep, one of those sites would be mine darn it. Nothing worse than
having everything all hooked up and realizing you forgot them. :-)
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
Albert,
The holes are for rudder cable guides - See page 38-9. Installation is
not mentioned in the instructions, but they are in the drawings. I have
seen several web sites with these guides missing.
cheers,
Ron
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:42 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel on each
side that are still empty as I well along in construction. They are
located near the flap motor, near the top of the tunnel and are arranged
in a vertical pattern. They show up in the plans from place to place but
I can't see what they are for. Early on I thought they would be for
rudder cable guides but if they are I have overlooked installing them
and they don't seem to be lined up correctly if that is the intended
use. Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 28
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We mounted the front GPS on the front crossbow & the rear one on the
rear cross support bar. Ain't "fighter" type canopies grand... 8*)
KABONG HRII Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Schipper
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: GPS Antenna
I put the antenna under the cowl. It works great.
http://www.my9a.com/img/finish/misc4/gpsantenna.jpg
Regards,
Mike Schipper
RV-10 #40576 - www.rvten.com
RV-9A - N63MS - www.my9a.com
On Feb 27, 2007, at 1:57 PM, Albert Gardner wrote:
I=92m planning on using a 496 for a GPS unit. Has anyone else flying
with this GPS? If so, did you use an external antenna, where did you
mount it and what model antenna is it? Or, is the internal antenna OK?
Thanks in advance,
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel |
They almost 'got' me (and Tim O) too - see
<http://www.myrv10.com/tips/gotchas.html>
BTW Mine don't have the BMS 10-11 Super Anzapon green primer either -
they have rattle can grey :-)
Ron
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2007 12:50 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
Hahahaha. It's funny because those little aluminum pieces for
the snap bushings are the ONLY pieces in my entire aircraft that weren't
primed with AKZO primer because it was late, and I discovered it as you
did in the plans picture only, and I had already run the cables, so I
cheated and shot it with a lesser rattle can primer. The only grey
primer on the aircraft. Probably one for the gotcha page.
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
<http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/>
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:58 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
Yep, one of those sites would be mine darn it. Nothing worse
than having everything all hooked up and realizing you forgot them. :-)
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:35 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
Albert,
The holes are for rudder cable guides - See page 38-9.
Installation is not mentioned in the instructions, but they are in the
drawings. I have seen several web sites with these guides missing.
cheers,
Ron
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:42 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Extra Holes in Aft Tunnel
There are 2 small holes in the aft part of the tunnel on
each side that are still empty as I well along in construction. They are
located near the flap motor, near the top of the tunnel and are arranged
in a vertical pattern. They show up in the plans from place to place but
I can't see what they are for. Early on I thought they would be for
rudder cable guides but if they are I have overlooked installing them
and they don't seem to be lined up correctly if that is the intended
use. Any help would be appreciated.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
--> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 30
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| Subject: | Fiberglass Course |
Regarding an RV-10-specific composite course:
Thanks for your responses! It looks like a go. The date was unresolved
until now but it looks like the last weekend in April will work best for the
most people.
I will finalize the date and other details by the end of the week but plan
tenatively for Saturday and Sunday, April 28 and 29.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
Message 31
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| Subject: | PIPREP at 34 Hours |
There are plenty of aerodynamic performance posted already, especially on T
im Olson's site so I won't go there much. Below are my notes/squawks/comme
nts/lessons learned at 34 hours. Slightly long post but hope there's someth
ing here for everyone. There are also a question or two. Maybe you can h
elp me out.
Handling/Flying qualities:
RV-10 is a joy to fly. No new news here. Casual observers tell me the IO-
540 sounds manly - very throaty.
Controls are at least twice as heavy as my old RV-6. Still light. Well ba
lanced feel.
With one soul onboard and 40-80lbs ballast in the baggage area... takeoffs
require a slight nose down trim irregardless of fuel level, perhaps a =BC i
nch trim tabs up or about a full one second push on the coolie hat. In cru
ise I can see a slight (1/8 in) elevator leading edge (where the counter ba
lance arms are) protruding above the trailing edge of the horizontal stab.
Pitch trim band is narrow. Slight power adjustment will require you to re-
trim. Not really a problem here. Have not ever ran out of pitch trim author
ity.
If you fight with the controls while the Trutrak is engaged, it WILL give i
n to you - only once. Replacing the shear screw fixed the problem.
Still getting used to differential braking. Tail wheel seems much more nat
ural, sorry.
Aircraft is too easy to land. Takes two hands to pull the stick all the wa
y aft on roll out. Don't take me literally. Take transition training befor
e flying yours.
Engine:
Engine burns about 1qt of straight mineral oil every 5 hours. I keep it at
9qts. Tim Olson mentioned his stabilizes around 8qts. Maybe I let it bre
athe out too much. Will let it go down to 8qts and see what happens. I do
n't expect full break in for at least 50 hours.
Cylinders #2 and #4 running hot compared to others prior to maiden flight.
Fuel flow test indicated that they got 50% amount of fuel compared to cyli
nders. Found out port on spider faintly labeled "METER" was used for #2 (m
y bad). Fuel for this port is shared with port for #4. Thus, they each go
t 50% of fuel. Moving fuel lines around on the spider and plugged the METER
port fixed the problem. Use
CHT 's1 and 2 are hottest. 410degF on climb out at 105kts. Definitely nee
d to cut down the air dams if nothing else. They are around 380degF in cru
ise while others are around 360. See what's all Tim Olson did on his site.
I think he's cruising around 320deg now.
Vetterman exhaust discolors bottom cowl in areas closest to the exhaust. N
ot sure how close they are to the cowl. You'll want to protect the inside
of the bottom cowl with aluminum sheets that Van's sell or something simila
r. Smooth the cowl first with a layer of resin.
Prop governor arm slightly interfered with top cowl in flight but not on th
e ground at the area of the bolt attaching the clevis to the governor arm.
The cowls move slightly in flight. Give a good =BC" clearance fixed the p
roblem.
Airframe:
Noticed bottom left cowl hinge had one broken eyelet on the cowl half at 25
hours. At 34 hours 5 out of 6 eyelets were broken. Replaced hinge half o
n cowl. Will throw away bottoms hinges and use nutplates/screws like what
Tim Olson did at the next opportunity. He uses 0.063 tab and five nutplates
(appear to be K1000-08) per side.
Stress crack around the bottom most rivet on the oil cooler hose flange on
the baffle. The weldment on the flange itself appears ok. Will add double
r and re-rivet the flange in place. Will also reinforce the weldment as so
meone else suggested. Will have to search the archive on how this person d
id it.
No excessive heat in tunnel. I insulated the bottom of the tunnel from fir
ewall to spar, and around fuel lines immediately below the fuel selector va
lve. I also routed one port from the avionics cooling fan to the tunnel to
keep the air moving inside the tunnel.
NACA air vents as designed are cold on the knees in the winter time with a
slight leak. Route them to your panel or somewhere else if I were you.
No problems with the nose wheel spacers. I added screws through the nose f
ork to make sure the spacers don't move.
Small short "cracks" around rear windows due to flexing. Not sure what to
do here. Feels like you need to allow it to flex. Any suggestions? I'd l
ike to fix it before painting.
Need to install the upper intersection fairings so I can fly with wheel pan
ts on and gain a few knots.
Avionics:
Satisfied with the GRT EFIS's. No problems switching from standard six-pac
k to glass panel. I enjoy the readily available true airspeed, wind velocit
y, flight path vector, g-meter, electronic checklists, etc.
Love the Mode-S. Aerocrapper (pun intended) suggested a "Mute" switch for t
he Mode-S in case b*tching Betty gets too annoying around the pattern. Don
't need this switch. B*tching Betty is not annoying at all. She comes on
only once when the traffic first shows up.
GRT EIS 6000 fuel levels are inop. Found out Aerocrapper did not provide t
he 4.8V input or via 470ohm resistors to the sensor inputs. Hate to think
of mucking behind the panel at this point.
Garmin 430 is powerful. Learning curve is still steep at this point.
Human factors:
Infinity stick grips are awesome. I make shoot-em-up noises while flyingJ.
Only complaint is coolie hat does not engage until it almost hits the sto
ps.
Seats with wonder-cushions are uncomfortable for me, at least for my weight
(170lbs). Feels like I'm sitting on a rock. After the foam is warmed up i
t really conforms to your curves, like slightly up your crack. Wear jeans
so this doesn't happen.
Don't have a good way to stow the fwd harnesses. Don't like to see "hooks"
above my head or on the center bar above the glare shield right in front o
f my eyes.
Keep pounding those rivets..
Anh
N591VU
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I installed both the el-cheapo external Garmin GPS antenna included with the x96/x96's
and Sat Radio
Antenna on the glareshield, I considered putting them under the cowl but didn't
like sat radio
electronics in that environment. For the GPS antenna we flush mounted it using
an instrument blank
cover and simple bracket and for the Sat Radio we used the Air Gizmos mount but
built a small
bracket to lower it a bit. Seems to work great in the shop, but not yet flying.
Photos of what we did start here
<http://casson.2y.net/yappa-ng/index.php?album=%2FRV-10%2F&image=IMG_1019.JPG> and use "Next Image"
to look at the next 5 for details if you wish.
Perry Casson
Regina, Canada
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