Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:37 AM - Dynon releases heated pitot (Vern W. Smith)
2. 09:18 AM - Flap positioning system (Eric_Kallio)
3. 09:53 AM - Fuel Tank Leaks (Kent Forsythe)
4. 10:41 AM - Battery choices and experience (John Testement)
5. 11:28 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Leaks (Jesse Saint)
6. 11:54 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Leaks (linn Walters)
7. 12:04 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Leaks (James K Hovis)
8. 12:54 PM - Re: Flap positioning system (Rick)
9. 02:34 PM - Working with Composites: RV-10 (Dave Saylor)
10. 02:44 PM - Fuel tank leaks (Fred Williams, M.D.)
11. 03:22 PM - Re: Fuel tank leaks (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
12. 03:59 PM - IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight (Scott Schmidt)
13. 07:05 PM - Re: Fuel tank leaks (John W. Cox)
14. 07:15 PM - FW: Fuel tank leaks (John W. Cox)
15. 07:42 PM - Re: Fuel tank leaks (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
16. 08:22 PM - ProSeal for the archives (Robin Marks)
17. 08:37 PM - Re: Flap positioning system (Tim Olson)
18. 09:42 PM - Re: Battery choices and experience (Steven DiNieri)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Dynon releases heated pitot |
It's a little too quite, so I thought I would pass this along. It was on
the Dynon's website. This has been an Achilles heal for Dynon as the
EFIS needs a pitot/static reference for correct attitude display. Get
them while they're hot (pun intended)!
Dynon Avionics is pleased to announce the much-anticipated heated
version of its popular AOA/Pitot design
<http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_AOA.html> . This all-new
design integrates a nichrome heating element into a pitot that is the
same form factor as the unheated version. This approach preserves the
original wind tunnel-tested aerodynamic angle of attack design and
facilitates replacement of Dynon's unheated AOA/Pitot for all those
seeking added protection.
The heated AOA/Pitot includes a separate pitot heater controller that
regulates the power to conserve energy and prevent dangerous
temperatures. The controller also outputs a signal that can be wired to
a warning light in the cockpit to indicate an inoperable or switched-off
pitot heater.
Dynon is accepting orders beginning February 23, 2007. The part number
for the Heated AOA/Pitot is 100677-000. The price is $450 and represents
an excellent value when compared to other heated pitots and is still
significantly less than competitive AOA systems.
Do not archive
Vern Smith (#324)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Flap positioning system |
Getting ready to order standard build fuse kit. Is the flap positioning system
that Vans offers on the order form sufficient, or should I go with some of the
other one-touch flap positioning systems? What are those of you flying using?
Thanks.
Eric Kallio
40518 Fuel tanks (which I waited until last to do)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98314#98314
Message 3
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I have completed my tanks and during testing have noticed some leaks
along the rear baffle and the tank skins. No doubt I did not get
enough or good placement of the tank sealant. Does anyone have any
tricks for getting into the tank to get more sealant along that those
edges? I thought about taking the fuel senders out so that I could get
in through that hole. On the outer edges, I can get in through the fuel
cap area. I am having trouble getting to the middle of the tanks
though. Is it acceptable to seal on the outside of the tank where the
baffle meets the skins?
Thanks,
Kent
Kent Forsythe
40338 - Wings
Slow Build All The Way!
Message 4
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| Subject: | Battery choices and experience |
Tim O has raised some good questions with my battery choices, and I would
like to hear from those of you who are flying with the Odyssey PC680. What
has been your experience in cranking ability with 1 PC680? Do you think it
is enough to start under most conditions? Would you strongly recommend
starting with the PC925?
My plan is to use 2 PC680s - one for cranking and the other for the avionics
during start up and as a backup for the ebus.
Thanks for your comments and suggestions.
John Testement
HYPERLINK "mailto:jwt@roadmapscoaching.com"jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
do not archive
--
2:43 PM
Message 5
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Kent,
I think the biggest issue would be the size of the leak. Ideally, you want
a good seal of Proseal on the inside of the tank so the pressure would be
wanting to make it seal more, rather than push it out, which is what you
would get if you put it on the outside. It might not make a huge
difference, so with the tank already sealed up, you could probably try a
little along the outside of that area. Van's, I believe, has mentioned
using some kind of locktite that will wick into the hole to seal little
holes, especially around a rivet or something like that. Van's also has a
kit that you can get to put an access panel in the rear bulkhead, which
would allow you to get your hand inside, but that puts that much bigger hole
in your tank which could allow other leaks. Again, it comes down to how bad
the leak is. If it is leaking along that whole joint, you might even
consider drilling it out and redoing the bulkhead. Use plenty of proseal
when you do that part.
Hope this helps.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kent Forsythe
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:53 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Leaks
I have completed my tanks and during testing have noticed some leaks
along the rear baffle and the tank skins. No doubt I did not get
enough or good placement of the tank sealant. Does anyone have any
tricks for getting into the tank to get more sealant along that those
edges? I thought about taking the fuel senders out so that I could get
in through that hole. On the outer edges, I can get in through the fuel
cap area. I am having trouble getting to the middle of the tanks
though. Is it acceptable to seal on the outside of the tank where the
baffle meets the skins?
Thanks,
Kent
Kent Forsythe
40338 - Wings
Slow Build All The Way!
--
2:43 PM
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Leaks |
I really can't answer your question ... but acceptable to whom??? My
knowledge about pro-sealed Grumman AA-5 series tanks says ...... no. On
those tanks you have to remove all the sealant near the leak and re-seal
.... from the inside. I have heard of some leaks being stopped with
Loctite (green, I think) which will wick into a crack, and it expands as
it 'cures'. You can stick a vacuum cleaner hose into the filler and
seal the vents to get a little negative pressure to help the locktite
along. Don't seal the hose in the opening .... some good shop-vacs will
deform the skins.
Linn
do not archive
Kent Forsythe wrote:
>
>I have completed my tanks and during testing have noticed some leaks
>along the rear baffle and the tank skins. No doubt I did not get
>enough or good placement of the tank sealant. Does anyone have any
>tricks for getting into the tank to get more sealant along that those
>edges? I thought about taking the fuel senders out so that I could get
>in through that hole. On the outer edges, I can get in through the fuel
>cap area. I am having trouble getting to the middle of the tanks
>though. Is it acceptable to seal on the outside of the tank where the
>baffle meets the skins?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Kent
>
>Kent Forsythe
>40338 - Wings
>Slow Build All The Way!
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Leaks |
Kent & Jesse,
In the production world, we've used thinned sealer (I'm not sure how
similar the sealer we use is to Proseal) and apply a slight vacuum to
the tank. This helps get the sealer wicked into the gap. Will Proseal
thin with MEK or Acetone?
Kevin H.
On 3/2/07, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
>
> Kent,
>
> I think the biggest issue would be the size of the leak. Ideally, you want
> a good seal of Proseal on the inside of the tank so the pressure would be
> wanting to make it seal more, rather than push it out, which is what you
> would get if you put it on the outside. It might not make a huge
> difference, so with the tank already sealed up, you could probably try a
> little along the outside of that area. Van's, I believe, has mentioned
> using some kind of locktite that will wick into the hole to seal little
> holes, especially around a rivet or something like that. Van's also has a
> kit that you can get to put an access panel in the rear bulkhead, which
> would allow you to get your hand inside, but that puts that much bigger hole
> in your tank which could allow other leaks. Again, it comes down to how bad
> the leak is. If it is leaking along that whole joint, you might even
> consider drilling it out and redoing the bulkhead. Use plenty of proseal
> when you do that part.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> www.saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kent Forsythe
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:53 PM
> To: RV10List
> Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Leaks
>
>
> I have completed my tanks and during testing have noticed some leaks
> along the rear baffle and the tank skins. No doubt I did not get
> enough or good placement of the tank sealant. Does anyone have any
> tricks for getting into the tank to get more sealant along that those
> edges? I thought about taking the fuel senders out so that I could get
> in through that hole. On the outer edges, I can get in through the fuel
> cap area. I am having trouble getting to the middle of the tanks
> though. Is it acceptable to seal on the outside of the tank where the
> baffle meets the skins?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kent
>
> Kent Forsythe
> 40338 - Wings
> Slow Build All The Way!
>
>
> --
> 2:43 PM
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Flap positioning system |
Eric,
ALthough not quite ready for flight I would reconsider the Van's offering which is made by showplanes, a well made product and does exactly what you want it to do but the FPS from Aircraft Extras: www.aircraftextras.com has a lot more features, if I had know about it before I would have used Aircraft Extras.
Just the normal 2 cents worth.
Rick S.
40185
Message 9
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| Subject: | Working with Composites: RV-10 |
Working with Composites: RV-10
This course will provide an overview of the composite parts and techniques
used on Van's Aircraft RV-10 kits. We will focus on correct materials and
processes, fitting the composite top and doors, cowl, spinner, fairings, and
other composite parts. You will recieve hands-on training to identify and
use all necessary materials. Examples of completed and in-process
assemblies will be available to view.
Who:
Harold Bunyi and Dave Saylor. Harold holds a BS in Aeronautical Engineering
and built kitplane parts in the Phillipines for many years. He has worked
at AirCrafters for 4 years and spends nearly all his time working with
composites.
I started working with composite kitplanes in 1998. I am an A&P/IA, and I
have finished the composite sections of my personal RV-10 project, along
with many other composite and aluminum projects. I recieved my BS in
Aeronautics from San Jose State.
When:
April 28 & 29, 2007 (Saturday & Sunday)
8AM-4PM Saturday
8AM-3PM Sunday
Where:
AirCrafters LLC
Watsonville Airport (KWVI)
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141
www.AirCraftersLLC.com <http://www.aircraftersllc.com/>
Class size is limited to 15 builders
$300 payable by cash, check or credit card
Please call or email to register, even if you have emailed expressing
interst in the last few days. 50% deposit is required before April 2nd.
Balance due before class starts.
"Sunday Only" availble for those completing the SportAir Composite course
March 24/25, 2007. Cost for Sunday Only is $150.
Nearest major airport is San Jose International. 45 minute drive to KWVI.
Best Lodging is Watsonville Comfort Inn: 831-728-2300. 10 rooms are
reserved under "AirCrafters". Ask for one of those rooms and use your
credit card to reserve it. Other lodging is available nearby but the Big
Sur Marathon is the same weekend and most local lodging will fill up.
Aircraft parking is available at the class site. Please call if we can help
with logistics.
Many thanks for your interest,
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
Message 10
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Pro seal will dissolve in MEK.
Fred Williams 40515
Message 11
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True, however Toluene is the correct solvent to carry Proseal.
Not beating the archive drum here but it's been discussed several times
before. There is a wealth of information in dem dar archives. Heh
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
Williams, M.D.
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 4:38 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel tank leaks
<drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
Pro seal will dissolve in MEK.
Fred Williams 40515
Message 12
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| Subject: | IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight |
Well, I just finished flying some good hard IFR last week in the -10.
My wife and I packed up our bags and left Salt Lake City for the
Bahamas. Once we hit Texas I flew IFR all the way to the Bahamas. No
big storms just low ceilings and clouds at all levels. The RV-10 did
awesome and the Cheltons were amazing. I really learned how to quickly
modify my flight plan on the Cheltons. I still do have some issues with
the altitude wandering from the Chelton and there is a little bit of
side to side motion from the Cheltons as well. I would typically let
the Cheltons handle the lateral steering and just let the Digiflight
handle the altitude. That Digiflight autopilot is great. Out of Jasper
TX. I had ceilings at 500 feet and didn't break until 4500 feet. I
just took off, hit the autopilot button with a 800 fpm climb with my
assigned heading of 090 and it did a great job. I could not be happier.
I would have loved to have inflight weather but can't decide which way
to go.
You can get away without many of the extras but the Digiflight linked
with IFR GPS would be a great way to go and it wouldn't break the bank.
Unfortunately, we arrived in the Bahamas on Saturday night and received
a call within 20 minutes of checking into our hotel that her dad who had
been fighting cancer over the last year took a turn for the worse. I
put her on a flight first thing Sunday morning and I left Freeport at
noon on Sunday and headed to Fort Peirce for customs. Then I left Fort
Peirce IFR up the east side of Florida and was vectored right over the
Cape Canaveral and Daytona Raceway and cruised in between some big
storms. I then landed at Albany Georgia for fuel and then flew to
Layfette Louisiania for the night. The next morning I flew to Burnet TX
for fuel, then Sante Fe for fuel, then home to Salt Lake City. The
RV-10 is a great cross country machine. From Salt Lake to the Bahamas
in less than 36 hours including 10 hours of sleep, dinner, and breakfast
at Layfette. Fortunately I landed in Salt Lake City at 6:30pm and was
able to be there when my father-in-law passed away with all of us by his
side Monday night. He was also a pilot and luckily was able to fly in
the RV-10 before he passed away.
So make sure you all have fun this weekend and take a flight for Randy!
He will be greatly missed!
http://www.legacy.com/saltlaketribune/Obituaries.asp?Page=LifeStory&Per
sonID=86653425
-Scott Schmidt
N104XP
Message 13
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You guys are killing me with your butchered description of my Beloved
ProSeal. ProSeal is a high quality PolySulfite Thixotrophic (Sticky
Shit) made exclusively by DeSoto, a division of PPG (and unfortunately
for my cloths a staple of the Air Carrier Industry - part 121). Van and
their Flame Master Product though a "Knock off" form of such a quality
product is not and will never be my ProSeal. Like Charleston (Ben Hur
and Moses) said "you will have to pry it from my dead hand".
There are four distinct reasons for failure in application.
1. Expired product.
2. Improper mix procedure... John G. you can chime in here.
3. Improper atmospherics like humidity or extreme temperatures.
4. Operator error in the installation/application.
This is the glue that holds airliners together.
The product you are using, (which I would venture to say is not my
beloved Proseal) comes in paintable "A" (like syrup) and extrudable "B"
(like old toothpaste). Properly applied I can create a convex 1/4
fillet as small as 3/32" of an inch, and then apply a fillet spoon to
convert it to a near flawless concave seam of beauty. In bead sizes
larger than 3/8" in the hands of an epileptic (no offence intended) I
can take a disgusting irregular "sloppy" bead, Mist it with Isopropyl
Alcohol and while using a cheap latex glove convert it into a smooth
final product. The alcohol evaporates without altering the catalyzed
bead.
Within minutes it can be cleaned with alcohol. Within hours it requires
MEK (which you better know what you are doing). We NEVER ever use
Toluene although we have it cause it alters and adulterates the final
chemical, cured composition. My beloved Proseal is paintable, it is
removable (but a real BITCH) and sticks to any and everything that is
clean.
Now as to pulling a vacuum, nothing could be further from proper
technique. A vacuum (negative pressure) causes atmospherics to enter
from outside of a tank. It leads to bead failure. I guess a slight
positive pressure could help wick Polysulphite into a fayed seam from
within the tank but using correct procedure is always recommended. The
slightest excess in either Negative or Positive is going to reform your
pristine tank into a new beast. Proseal can be laid over clean,
previously applied and cured substrate. The secret is getting it to the
specific area of the leak.
This is Experimental Aircraft Manufacture so you boys and girls have fun
playing with chemicals and toys of dubious result from your chemistry
cabinet.
John Cox
the Turbanator #40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel tank leaks
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
True, however Toluene is the correct solvent to carry Proseal.
Not beating the archive drum here but it's been discussed several times
before. There is a wealth of information in dem dar archives. Heh
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
Williams, M.D.
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 4:38 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel tank leaks
<drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
Pro seal will dissolve in MEK.
Fred Williams 40515
Message 14
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http://corporate.ppg.com/ppg/aerospace/default.htm
http://www.ppg.com/prc-desoto/pdf/sglssary.pdf
Simply the facts. Flame-Master is not "ProSeal". It is a knockoff copy
of the product spec. Think of facial tissue and "Kleenex". Cellophane
tape and 3M "Scotchtape".
Every good Sheetmetal Instructor can give you a complete lesson in 10
minutes. Mediocre ones never do. Now installing Wet Rivets (those with
rivets coated in this damn stuff) takes a little longer. Every good
riveter can do wet rivets. Great riveters do it faster and cleaner.
John Cox
Message 15
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You say polysulfide, I say tomato. Seriously though, my Toluene comment
comes from many past rounds of this and doing some of my own looking.
But of course I always bow to a properly trained A&P who likes his
polysulfide's a bit too much. :-D My reference point is this:
http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/tank_sealant.pdf
Fortunately our little airplanes aren't held together with this stuff,
just end up with a PITA messy leak. Personally I wouldn't thin it but I
would rather see people at least use the proper solvents if they feel
the need. Seems that the article above was well written with a fair
amount of research. But as the old saying goes, I'm no expert and
always do your own due diligence when it comes to information "heard" on
an Internet mailing list.
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: FW: RV10-List: Fuel tank leaks
http://corporate.ppg.com/ppg/aerospace/default.htm
http://www.ppg.com/prc-desoto/pdf/sglssary.pdf
Simply the facts. Flame-Master is not "ProSeal". It is a knockoff copy
of the product spec. Think of facial tissue and "Kleenex". Cellophane
tape and 3M "Scotchtape".
Every good Sheetmetal Instructor can give you a complete lesson in 10
minutes. Mediocre ones never do. Now installing Wet Rivets (those with
rivets coated in this damn stuff) takes a little longer. Every good
riveter can do wet rivets. Great riveters do it faster and cleaner.
John Cox
Message 16
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| Subject: | ProSeal for the archives |
You guys are killing me with your butchered description of my Beloved
ProSeal. ProSeal is a high quality PolySulfite Thixotrophic (Sticky
Shit) made exclusively by DeSoto, a division of PPG (and unfortunately
for my cloths a staple of the Air Carrier Industry - part 121). Van and
their Flame Master Product though a "Knock off" form of such a quality
product is not and will never be my ProSeal. Like Charleston (Ben Hur
and Moses) said "you will have to pry it from my dead hand".
There are four distinct reasons for failure in application.
1. Expired product.
2. Improper mix procedure... John G. you can chime in here.
3. Improper atmospherics like humidity or extreme temperatures.
4. Operator error in the installation/application.
This is the glue that holds airliners together.
The product you are using, (which I would venture to say is not my
beloved Proseal) comes in paintable "A" (like syrup) and extrudable "B"
(like old toothpaste). Properly applied I can create a convex 1/4
fillet as small as 3/32" of an inch, and then apply a fillet spoon to
convert it to a near flawless concave seam of beauty. In bead sizes
larger than 3/8" in the hands of an epileptic (no offence intended) I
can take a disgusting irregular "sloppy" bead, Mist it with Isopropyl
Alcohol and while using a cheap latex glove convert it into a smooth
final product. The alcohol evaporates without altering the catalyzed
bead.
Within minutes it can be cleaned with alcohol. Within hours it requires
MEK (which you better know what you are doing). We NEVER ever use
Toluene although we have it cause it alters and adulterates the final
chemical, cured composition. My beloved Proseal is paintable, it is
removable (but a real BITCH) and sticks to any and everything that is
clean.
Now as to pulling a vacuum, nothing could be further from proper
technique. A vacuum (negative pressure) causes atmospherics to enter
from outside of a tank. It leads to bead failure. I guess a slight
positive pressure could help wick Polysulphite into a fayed seam from
within the tank but using correct procedure is always recommended. The
slightest excess in either Negative or Positive is going to reform your
pristine tank into a new beast. Proseal can be laid over clean,
previously applied and cured substrate. The secret is getting it to the
specific area of the leak.
This is Experimental Aircraft Manufacture so you boys and girls have fun
playing with chemicals and toys of dubious result from your chemistry
cabinet.
John Cox
the Turbanator #40600
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Flap positioning system |
Just have the standard one from showplanes. No complaints. I was
skeptical at first since you only get 2 "real" notches of flaps,
but as it turns out, it's plenty good for what the plane needs.
Don't know about any other ones from any experience.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Eric_Kallio wrote:
>
> Getting ready to order standard build fuse kit. Is the flap positioning system
that Vans offers on the order form sufficient, or should I go with some of the
other one-touch flap positioning systems? What are those of you flying using?
Thanks.
>
> Eric Kallio
> 40518 Fuel tanks (which I waited until last to do)
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Battery choices and experience |
The pc 680 has whipped up my rv6a after two weeks of sitting at freezing
temps, and being almost 5 years old..I've left the master on a few times and
the recharge (jump start) takes a bit longer than a wet cell, but nothing
comes without a tradeoff.. Fwiw, I had an alternator field fuse open in
flight and continued for 1.5 hrs without an ebus. It was vfr so no worries
but I left transponder,gns430 and backup radios on..
My rv10 will have a pc 1200 in rear and a pc680 up front. I figure with
some video products installed for the kids and some preflight planning with
the gadgets on the ground I could use a little extra capacity.
.02
Steve
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Testement
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:33 PMpacity
Subject: RV10-List: Battery choices and experience
Tim O has raised some good questions with my battery choices, and I would
like to hear from those of you who are flying with the Odyssey PC680. What
has been your experience in cranking ability with 1 PC680? Do you think it
is enough to start under most conditions? Would you strongly recommend
starting with the PC925?
My plan is to use 2 PC680s - one for cranking and the other for the avionics
during start up and as a backup for the ebus.
Thanks for your comments and suggestions
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
do not archive
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