Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:41 AM - Tim Olso for Hall of Fame (Russell Daves)
2. 03:46 AM - Tim Olson Nomination (Russell Daves)
3. 03:52 AM - Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? (Russell Daves)
4. 04:36 AM - Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
5. 04:37 AM - Re: Used Cylinders (Phillips, Jack)
6. 05:07 AM - Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? (Jesse Saint)
7. 06:34 AM - Re: Tim Olso for Hall of Fame (ddddsp1@juno.com)
8. 07:36 AM - Re: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order (James K Hovis)
9. 08:53 AM - Re: Used Cylinders (Mike Lauritsen - Work)
10. 08:53 AM - Re: Tailcone question (Michael D Chase)
11. 08:55 AM - Crazy Nomination thing - Don't forget the others - esp. Randy (Tim Olson)
12. 09:54 AM - Re: Tailcone question (James Hein)
13. 10:07 AM - Re: Tailcone question (James K Hovis)
14. 10:37 AM - Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? (pilotdds@aol.com)
15. 10:51 AM - Rollling the Rudder skins leading edge - Building note (KiloPapa)
16. 11:13 AM - Re: NPRM Process (Dave Saylor)
17. 11:41 AM - Re: NPRM Process (Pascal)
18. 11:44 AM - Re: NPRM Process (JOHN STARN)
19. 11:46 AM - Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? (Pascal)
20. 12:21 PM - Re: NPRM Process (John W. Cox)
21. 02:16 PM - Nav Lights (Deems Davis)
22. 03:02 PM - Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Chris Johnston)
23. 03:05 PM - Performance Comparison ()
24. 03:06 PM - Re: NPRM Process (Tim Olson)
25. 03:14 PM - Transparencies (McGANN, Ron)
26. 03:54 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Rob Kermanj)
27. 04:04 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Michael Schipper)
28. 05:20 PM - Re: Transparencies (John Gonzalez)
29. 05:42 PM - Re: Transparencies (McGANN, Ron)
30. 08:17 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Matt Reeves)
31. 08:18 PM - Re: Performance Comparison (JOHN STARN)
32. 08:29 PM - Re: elevator control horn drilling (MauleDriver)
33. 09:51 PM - Re: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked version (John Gonzalez)
34. 11:09 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (DejaVu)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Tim Olso for Hall of Fame |
I will be nominating Tim Olson for the EAA Homebuilders Hall of Fame for
2007 and wanted to announce it right here (for his selfless
generosity,
tireless efforts and investment in time and the sharing of
knowledge for
safer OBAM aircraft and the safe growth of our remarkable group)
and I
am declaring it right now. Get back to Work.
John Cox
#40600
Being an attorney and sometimes being called a professional, I will
leave John's rant about professionals alone.
However I do want to say that I would certainly second his motion
regarding Tim. While I have no doubt that I could have finished N710RV
and got it flying without Tim's help it wouldn't have occurred in 33
months and probably would not have turned out as good.
Russ Daves
N710RV- First Flight 7/28/06
Message 2
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| Subject: | Tim Olson Nomination |
Al Gore, Michael Moore, Franken, Limbaugh, King and O'Reilly... oh,
lord, what have I started.
John Cox
#40600
Just so I am on the record, Tim does not deserve to be put into the same
group as above. He is lots better than that.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?Which certified |
comes closest to the RV-10?
You are going to love the RV-10 and have a 40 year + newer airplane to
boot for less than the cost of the J-35 and upgrading the panel of the
J-35 to be in the general price range of your RV-10.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
I own and fly a 4 seat 1958 J-35 Bonanza. It has a 260 hp Continental
IO-470-N and is a good airplane. BUT, with four adults and 20 lbs
of
luggage each, I can only carry about 25 gallons of fuel! Gross
weight
and aft CG problem. I have GAMI injectors and run LOP and can get
about 165 knots TAS on 11.5 gph. I think the RV-10 handily beats
the
Bonanza on all of those counts. The complexity and expense of
retractable gear, the time consuming annual (we do our own
annuals),
and the expense of Raytheon parts are another downside. It has
been a
great airplane and my wife and I have traveled to both coasts and
lots of places in between in it, but we are really looking forward
to
our RV-10.
David and Mary Maib
#40559
QB wings
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? |
I own a PA 28-235...it is certainly slower--130 kts or so, fixed gear, O
540, will haul more than 1/2 metric ton, with 84 gallons on board, 4 seat albeit
smaller cabin and will go for a long distance whether with 4 on board or lots
of stuff, burn about the same amount of fuel per hour at the RV 10 but doing
40-50 kts less per hour, this is also true for the C 182 but it's a good
hauler but breezy due to the door and seals, generally.
I don't see the Tiger as in the same class at the RV 10...good speed but
useful load and distance are not in the same area...plus you've got the purple
goop issue to consider on the early laminate wings. Both Piper's, Van's and
Cessna are all metal and riveted fixed gear products...Bo's, Mooney's,
Commander's, Arrow's etc in the higher performance planes have retractable
legs...increasing annual costs and maintenance issues. Leg's down keeps it simpler
but usually slower.
Patrick
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http://www.aol.com.
Message 5
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Put 'em on ebay and see what they'll bring. I sold a set of jugs off a
65 Continental that were worn beyond limits and would require chroming
to bring them back into spec. Still got $100 apiece for them, even
though I had accurately described their condition.
Otherwise, make bookends out of them. I've got some nice bookends made
from a couple of C-85 cylinders that cracked on my old Cessna 140 and
were replaced.
Jack Phillips
#40610
Trying to get the ProSeal off my fingers after gluing in my elevator
trailing edges
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Lauritsen - Work
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:22 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Used Cylinders
Anybody have an idea what to do with the used cylinders off of my IO540?
Replaced them all when rebuilt now they are sitting around. 5 of the 6
are within new limits. Has anyone sold theirs? What are they worth?
Thanks,
Mike
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? |
I agree, but he said "closest". My uncle flies a Bonanza and we stopped by
to see him recently. The cruise numbers were as close and efficient as the
-10 of any plane I have seen. Yes, the complexity and cost of the retract
makes this possible yet let desirable. With 4 adults, 80lbs of baggage and
only 25 gallons you will likely be close to an AFT CG problem in any 4-seat
plane, even the -10. Again, it is not as great a plane, IMHO, as the RV-10,
but is as close as they come. When you look at a Cirrus with all of it's
fame, you get a full-fuel useful load of around 650 Lbs, which really makes
it a 3-seat plane to get the same range, and it needs a LOT more airfield to
get that. The 182 carries a lot, but doesn't go as fast. Both of these
will burn a lot more fuel getting the same distance. The only thing I hear
people say about a Mooney is that the cabin is very tight/small, but I know
very little about them.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Maib
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
I own and fly a 4 seat 1958 J-35 Bonanza. It has a 260 hp Continental
IO-470-N and is a good airplane. BUT, with four adults and 20 lbs of luggage
each, I can only carry about 25 gallons of fuel! Gross weight and aft CG
problem. I have GAMI injectors and run LOP and can get about 165 knots TAS
on 11.5 gph. I think the RV-10 handily beats the Bonanza on all of those
counts. The complexity and expense of retractable gear, the time consuming
annual (we do our own annuals), and the expense of Raytheon parts are
another downside. It has been a great airplane and my wife and I have
traveled to both coasts and lots of places in between in it, but we are
really looking forward to our RV-10.
David and Mary Maib
#40559
QB wings
On Mar 12, 2007, at 8:36 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:
4-seat Bonanza, from everything I have heard and seen.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
<mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com> jesse@saintaviation.com
<http://www.saintaviation.com> www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
A question came up one day while hanger flying. Which certified, old or new,
comes closest to the RV-10, all around? Seating, performance, handling,
payload, comfort, etc etc. Waddya think? Hmmmm?
John Jessen
40328
do not archive
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space">
--> <http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Tim Olso for Hall of Fame |
I must be drinking the wrong colored KOOL Aid again.............Tim, Wha
t color we suppose to be drinking this month?
DEAN 40449
Paint fumes must be getting to me
________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f
ront.htm?csp=24
<html><P>I must be drinking the wrong colored KOOL Aid again............
.Tim, What color we suppose to be drinking this month?
</P>
<P><IMG src="http://webmail.juno.com/RTE/HTMLRTAImages/Emoticons/75_75
.gif"></P>
<P>DEAN 40449</P>
<P>Paint fumes must be getting to me</P>
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Click here to checkout <B>USA TODAY Headlines</B>.</a><br></font>
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order |
John,
Great post and well reasoned approach, keeps the OBAM principle
pretty much as is while eliminating a part of the "hired gun" problem.
As a wanna-be builder (hopefully will be turning that into builder
status soon), I support TIm Olson's nomination. He's probably done
more to inspire future RV-10 builders than any single person by doing
a simple, sometimes daunting task of collecting and diseminating
relavent infromation about building his and other great RV-10's.
Without his webpages (and those of others he links to), I think my
preparatory work and insiration would be rather lacking.
Kevin Hovis
builder soon!!
On 3/12/07, John W. Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
> Let me go on record that ever since (actually before) biblical times,
> women began providing services to men "outside of marriage" and the word
> "professional " has been bastardized for the monetary benefit of the
> few.
>
> We now have people claiming "Professional Build". Offering to build or
> sell you "Professionally Built Aircraft". "Choose which flavor of the
> month we can offer which will motivate you to pay us money for our
> services - We will provide you that service - We promise". A profession
> should be a group of people following a line of conduct as though it was
> Professional, or a calling requiring Specialized Knowledge and training
> often long and Intensive Academic Preparation, or engaged in one of the
> learned professions such a my doctors, lawyer, accountant, structural
> engineer, architect and real estate broker or better yet "conforming to
> ethically standards of a profession". I am all for a method to
> establish who is a professional builder out their. Are You? Do we want
> a Professional Build Program? Do we quietly look the other way while the
> working guys and gals claim "professional" and take the money and run.
>
> There are few builders who could meet such a definition, Dave Saylor may
> just be one who by his body of work, ethic and training might establish
> a benchmark. He is the only voice we have in the sea of manufacturers
> trying to sell more product and make more dollars for themselves who
> also serves our interest on the ARC. Builders who ethically manipulate
> the 51% rule to "Build to Order" are not such Professionals they are
> prostitutes (IMHO).
>
> The result of such work may (I think - Will) lead to statistically
> adulterated insurance rates for the individual OBAM aircraft which have
> benefited by the 51% directive. It should come as no surprise with the
> increased sophistication of our aircraft systems that someone building
> them (Us RV-10 builders) needed training, academic preparation and some
> modicum of ethics. Paying for IT, does not make it Professional, it
> makes it a bastardized product. Before I answer Paul's request for
> clarification on what I think of the ARC, I thought I would clear the
> air before wasting more bandwidth.
>
> We are about to get what we deserve from the 51% Committee, I would like
> to think that as a group, we would like to see the private individuals
> who build, continue to do so and prosper. I hold a lot of respect for
> Real Builders. I would like to think we all would be willing to
> contribute to helping increase the margin of safety with our product. To
> use that redneck media guy's tagline from the "Fair and Balanced
> Network" - "What say You?"
>
> Here is a teaser as to where I am going, Paul. Builder's who build
> should be allowed to continue to modify, maintain and inspection for the
> confirmation of continued safe operation their own personally registered
> and personally built aircraft - not that of any others. Certainly not
> "Build to Order". Builder's who sell, loose that specific Repairman
> Certificate upon the Sale, but they retain the right to sell it and to
> continue to build future OBAM. When individual's who did not build it
> buy it, they would have to get a professionally qualified A & P mechanic
> with current IA endorsement to complete the inspection for continued
> safe operation and for the protection of the General Public - oh yeh,
> and they cannot maintain it either cause they are not of sufficient
> knowledge and training. We do not need increased insurance rates. We
> do not need more restrictive regulations. We need more and higher
> ethics in the Build process. We need to support guys like Tim Olson and
> the sharing of information to improve our own group, from within.
>
> I will be nominating Tim Olson for the EAA Homebuilders Hall of Fame for
> 2007 and wanted to announce it right here (for his selfless generosity,
> tireless efforts and investment in time and the sharing of knowledge for
> safer OBAM aircraft and the safe growth of our remarkable group) and I
> am declaring it right now. Get back to Work.
>
>
> John Cox
> #40600
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Used Cylinders |
I decided to try them on ebay. I also listed some other parts some only
good for airboats, but if anyone needs prop gov. gears and is not zero
timing their engine you might be interested.
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZclevtool
On 3/13/07, Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com> wrote:
>
> Put 'em on ebay and see what they'll bring. I sold a set of jugs off a
> 65 Continental that were worn beyond limits and would require chroming to
> bring them back into spec. Still got $100 apiece for them, even though I
> had accurately described their condition.
>
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Tailcone question |
John,
Sorry no pictures as I am on the road, but I can give you a dimension. I
am looking at 1/16 miss alignment over a 4-6 inch length around the bend
location.
Any thoughts?
Michael Chase
General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products
802-657-6029 Office
802-922-5930 Cell
mchase@gdatp.com
This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is for the sole use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is private,
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copying, printing, disclosure, retention, or distribution is strictly
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
sender by reply to this e-mail, and delete all copies without disclosing
this message to others. Thank you.
"John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
Sent by: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
03/12/2007 11:00 AM
Please respond to
rv10-list@matronics.com
To
<rv10-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: RV10-List: Tailcone question
Michael, some pictures would help.
If you looked at my website, and my discussion of the process, I didn't
have alignment problems, but only because I snuck up on the final bend.
You also have to be a little careful not to put a twist into it, so when
you whack it, you really want the pressure you're putting on it to be in
the final bend direction. Anyway, send some pictures of what the
alignment problem is. And get some heat!
John Jessen
#40328
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Chase
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:33 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Tailcone question
OK so here I am back with questions about the tail cone and that darn
F-1032 Longerion? Anyway I think I am past the point of breaking them,
but how about alignment with the skin. I see in the instructions that
they want me us to line up the edges, did anyone else have an issue or
have to work at this? Looking at a bunch of websites I don't see anyone
who even talks about this effort. I am trying to figure out if I messed
up my bend or if it is just because it was so cold in my shop when I tried
to line everything up. I question more then the bend just because my
alignment issues were not just limited to near the bend, but also existing
forward of the bend with good alignment the first 1-2 feet then 1 foot off
then back on just before the bend ect. This may be just the cold
contributing to my issues as it was -28F that AM, I am definitely in the
market for a small wood stove before next winter:-)
thanks for the help
Michael Chase
General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products
802-657-6029 Office
802-922-5930 Cell
mchase@gdatp.com
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sender by reply to this e-mail, and delete all copies without disclosing
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Crazy Nomination thing - Don't forget the others - esp. Randy |
You guys, I really appreciate your compliments. But, it gets
me a bit squeamish because I don't want to let you all forget
where this all started.
When I was building, I *felt* like I was a latecomer and behind
the curve. There were many people (169 to be exact) in front of
me with kits. Somehow I ended up as probably the 24th customer
to fly though. I had many questions, and zero experience. I
didn't get a demo flight until I was well into my wings, so I
was building without hardly even any cool stories from people
had flown them. You just had to hope it was going to be
everything you intended. Along the way, I met Randy, who ended
up being the 2nd one that we know of that flew his own RV-10.
He's the one to who we really owe the most for his pioneering.
He *allowed* me to post his pictures, which became the base
for the resource that is now my site. He spent countless
hours on the phone with me and many others, giving tips to
get through the snags. That's what my site originally
was founded on...tips from him and others who were ahead
of me....things I learned along the way. There are others
like Anh Vu who provided lots of insight to me before
flight, and then I got to pay them back a bit after I
sped up my build and got ahead. Vic Syracuse, who was
very helpful many times throughout the 2nd half of the
build preocess for me. Bob Condrey...he was there
for lots of people, and still is...same with Rick Sked.
I thought for sure many/most of the 169 people who have
kits before me would be flying before me too, but it just
didn't work out that way...mainly because they're slackers.
(just kidding!)
Anyway, don't forget that those people and many more are really
where it all began, way back on the Yahoo group of old. We've
grown to a number of more than 4X the kits since I started
building, and there have been countless examples of very
ingenious ideas and people who've stepped forth on the list to
share their knowledge and experiences. They all play a
part in our success. If you've ever read something on
this list and pondered it, you not only are a part of
the community, but you're gaining resources from it. It's
what improves our quality of build experience, for many of
us.
At present, I am head-over-heels in love with the plane that I
built, and I do far too little tinkering with it, as I enjoy
flying it too much. I've turned over 200 hours on the plane
with nothing but minor squaks. My family has gotten used to
flying places, and my wife likes it almost as much as I do
now....this weekend SHE was the one who didn't want to quit
flying, so we headed out for another leg.
I do intend to keep the info coming as time permits.
It's been tougher lately, for some reason. If people
have info to submit to the tips area, I just ask one
thing....please help with the content as much as possible.
I've got some tips from people that have great 1,2,3, step
by steps, and those are easy to just slap on the site with
a photo. The ones that are hard are the "here's something
you should share" ones that I have to take the time to
write up. I don't mind doing it, but it does take more
dedicated time to get that stuff out.
So anyway, I appreciate everyone's participation in the
community as a whole, and I don't think I deserve any
more recognition than any of the other people who do their
best to pass on what they've learned. There are some
out there who build their entire plane without sharing
any info on a forum. That's fine, but really I think it's
nice to give back how and when you can.
Thanks again, and I'd like to vote myself down a notch,
and maybe give a better nomination of Randy DeBauw. Without
him I wouldn't have had it so good.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
James K Hovis wrote:
>
> John,
> Great post and well reasoned approach, keeps the OBAM principle
> pretty much as is while eliminating a part of the "hired gun" problem.
>
> As a wanna-be builder (hopefully will be turning that into builder
> status soon), I support TIm Olson's nomination. He's probably done
> more to inspire future RV-10 builders than any single person by doing
> a simple, sometimes daunting task of collecting and diseminating
> relavent infromation about building his and other great RV-10's.
> Without his webpages (and those of others he links to), I think my
> preparatory work and insiration would be rather lacking.
>
> Kevin Hovis
>
> builder soon!!
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Tailcone question |
Mike,
I'm not the intended recipent.... But not to worry, I haven't told
anyone :)
But as for deleting the copies... Or retention... My memory isn't
that switchable... Sorry :)
-Jim
do not archive... Lawyer-based humor involved
Michael D Chase wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Sorry no pictures as I am on the road, but I can give you a dimension.
> I am looking at 1/16 miss alignment over a 4-6 inch length around the
> bend location.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Michael Chase
> General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products
> 802-657-6029 Office
> 802-922-5930 Cell
> mchase@gdatp.com
>
>
> This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is for the sole
> use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is
> private, confidential, or exempt from disclosure. Any unauthorized
> review, use, copying, printing, disclosure, retention, or distribution
> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender by reply to this e-mail, and delete all copies
> without disclosing this message to others. Thank you.
>
>
> *"John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>*
> Sent by: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>
> 03/12/2007 11:00 AM
> Please respond to
> rv10-list@matronics.com
>
>
>
> To
> <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> cc
>
> Subject
> RE: RV10-List: Tailcone question
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael, some pictures would help.
>
> If you looked at my website, and my discussion of the process, I
> didn't have alignment problems, but only because I snuck up on the
> final bend. You also have to be a little careful not to put a twist
> into it, so when you whack it, you really want the pressure you're
> putting on it to be in the final bend direction. Anyway, send some
> pictures of what the alignment problem is. And get some heat!
>
> John Jessen
> #40328
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael D
> Chase*
> Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2007 7:33 AM*
> To:* rv10-list@matronics.com*
> Subject:* RV10-List: Tailcone question
>
>
> OK so here I am back with questions about the tail cone and that darn
> F-1032 Longerion? Anyway I think I am past the point of breaking
> them, but how about alignment with the skin. I see in the
> instructions that they want me us to line up the edges, did anyone
> else have an issue or have to work at this? Looking at a bunch of
> websites I don't see anyone who even talks about this effort. I am
> trying to figure out if I messed up my bend or if it is just because
> it was so cold in my shop when I tried to line everything up. I
> question more then the bend just because my alignment issues were not
> just limited to near the bend, but also existing forward of the bend
> with good alignment the first 1-2 feet then 1 foot off then back on
> just before the bend ect. This may be just the cold contributing to
> my issues as it was -28F that AM, I am definitely in the market for a
> small wood stove before next winter:-)
>
> thanks for the help
>
>
> Michael Chase
> General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products
> 802-657-6029 Office
> 802-922-5930 Cell
> mchase@gdatp.com
>
>
> This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is for the sole
> use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is
> private, confidential, or exempt from disclosure. Any unauthorized
> review, use, copying, printing, disclosure, retention, or distribution
> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender by reply to this e-mail, and delete all copies
> without disclosing this message to others. Thank you.
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
> *
>
> FORUMS -
>
> *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tailcone question |
Be glad I don't attach the ITAR warning on my e-mail to this list.....
Kevin H.
On 3/13/07, James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> I'm not the intended recipent.... But not to worry, I haven't told
> anyone :)
>
> But as for deleting the copies... Or retention... My memory isn't
> that switchable... Sorry :)
>
> -Jim
> do not archive... Lawyer-based humor involved
>
>
> Michael D Chase wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Sorry no pictures as I am on the road, but I can give you a dimension.
> > I am looking at 1/16 miss alignment over a 4-6 inch length around the
> > bend location.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Michael Chase
> > General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products
> > 802-657-6029 Office
> > 802-922-5930 Cell
> > mchase@gdatp.com
> >
> >
> > This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is for the sole
> > use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is
> > private, confidential, or exempt from disclosure. Any unauthorized
> > review, use, copying, printing, disclosure, retention, or distribution
> > is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> > contact the sender by reply to this e-mail, and delete all copies
> > without disclosing this message to others. Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
> > *"John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>*
> > Sent by: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> >
> > 03/12/2007 11:00 AM
> > Please respond to
> > rv10-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> >
> > To
> > <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > cc
> >
> > Subject
> > RE: RV10-List: Tailcone question
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael, some pictures would help.
> >
> > If you looked at my website, and my discussion of the process, I
> > didn't have alignment problems, but only because I snuck up on the
> > final bend. You also have to be a little careful not to put a twist
> > into it, so when you whack it, you really want the pressure you're
> > putting on it to be in the final bend direction. Anyway, send some
> > pictures of what the alignment problem is. And get some heat!
> >
> > John Jessen
> > #40328
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael D
> > Chase*
> > Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2007 7:33 AM*
> > To:* rv10-list@matronics.com*
> > Subject:* RV10-List: Tailcone question
> >
> >
> > OK so here I am back with questions about the tail cone and that darn
> > F-1032 Longerion? Anyway I think I am past the point of breaking
> > them, but how about alignment with the skin. I see in the
> > instructions that they want me us to line up the edges, did anyone
> > else have an issue or have to work at this? Looking at a bunch of
> > websites I don't see anyone who even talks about this effort. I am
> > trying to figure out if I messed up my bend or if it is just because
> > it was so cold in my shop when I tried to line everything up. I
> > question more then the bend just because my alignment issues were not
> > just limited to near the bend, but also existing forward of the bend
> > with good alignment the first 1-2 feet then 1 foot off then back on
> > just before the bend ect. This may be just the cold contributing to
> > my issues as it was -28F that AM, I am definitely in the market for a
> > small wood stove before next winter:-)
> >
> > thanks for the help
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Chase
> > General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products
> > 802-657-6029 Office
> > 802-922-5930 Cell
> > mchase@gdatp.com
> >
> >
> > This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is for the sole
> > use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is
> > private, confidential, or exempt from disclosure. Any unauthorized
> > review, use, copying, printing, disclosure, retention, or distribution
> > is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> > contact the sender by reply to this e-mail, and delete all copies
> > without disclosing this message to others. Thank you.
> > *
> >
> >
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >
> > *
> > *
> >
> > FORUMS -
> >
> > *
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? |
I can handily outclimb the cirus sr22,proven on sunday.I think they are abou
t 10 mph faster in cruise-not more than that.They have more amenities and co
st350-400 thousand more.
-----Original Message-----
From: jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 5:06 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
I agree, but he said =9Cclosest=9D. My uncle flies a Bonanza an
d we stopped by to see him recently. The cruise numbers were as close and e
fficient as the -10 of any plane I have seen. Yes, the complexity and cost
of the retract makes this possible yet let desirable. With 4 adults, 80lbs
of baggage and only 25 gallons you will likely be close to an AFT CG problem
in any 4-seat plane, even the -10. Again, it is not as great a plane, IMHO
, as the RV-10, but is as close as they come. When you look at a Cirrus wit
h all of it=99s fame, you get a full-fuel useful load of around 650 Lb
s, which really makes it a 3-seat plane to get the same range, and it needs
a LOT more airfield to get that. The 182 carries a lot, but doesn=99t
go as fast. Both of these will burn a lot more fuel getting the same dista
nce. The only thing I hear people say about a Mooney is that the cabin is v
ery tight/small, but I know very little about them.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of David Maib
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
I own and fly a 4 seat 1958 J-35 Bonanza. It has a 260 hp Continental IO-470
-N and is a good airplane. BUT, with four adults and 20 lbs of luggage each,
I can only carry about 25 gallons of fuel! Gross weight and aft CG problem.
I have GAMI injectors and run LOP and can get about 165 knots TAS on 11.5 g
ph. I think the RV-10 handily beats the Bonanza on all of those counts. The
complexity and expense of retractable gear, the time consuming annual (we do
our own annuals), and the expense of Raytheon parts are another downside. I
t has been a great airplane and my wife and I have traveled to both coasts a
nd lots of places in between in it, but we are really looking forward to our
RV-10.
David and Mary Maib
#40559
QB wings
On Mar 12, 2007, at 8:36 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:
4-seat Bonanza, from everything I have heard and seen.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
A question came up one day while hanger flying. Which certified, old or new,
comes closest to the RV-10, all around? Seating, performance, handling, pay
load, comfort, etc etc. Waddya think? Hmmmm?
John Jessen
40328
do not archive
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space">
--> http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at AOL.com.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Rollling the Rudder skins leading edge - Building note |
For the Archives:
Rolling the Rudder skins leading edge - Section 7-11
I have collected various builder's techniques/tips on rolling the Rudder
skin leading
edge and found what worked best for us was a combination of some of
them.
We found that the upper and mid skin sections being narrower in
protruding length
and Rudder width were better suited to rolling with 1" OD pipe. This
produced a
radius in which the rivet holes lined up well. When first trying to use
the 1-1/4" OD
pipe on the upper section we found that we ran out of turn - the pipe
bumped into the
spar - before the appropriate radius was produced. Using 1" on the mid
section led
to a slightly too tight radius on the bottom half of the mid section so
the caution here
is to bend and then check to find a compromise. This tighter than
needed radius on
the bottom half of the mid section was easy enough to reduce by hand.
The lower
section worked best when rolled with the 1-1/4" OD pipe as listed in the
builders
manual section 7-11 producing the bend with an appropriate radius and
skin lap for
the wider length and width of the skin at the bottom of the rudder.
We also found duct tape worked OK and this is definitely a two-man job.
One person
with good arm strength needs to hold the pipe (taped to the skin) flat
on the bench to
keep the bend from occurring at the skin/spar rivet line but rather
produce a nice
smooth radius. The other person rolls the pipe with a pipe wrench. A
fair amount of
leverage is required on the lower sections. I think the mass of the
pipe is an advantage
over using a wood dowel.
Also, don't forget to put the bend in the skin edge for smooth overlap
before rolling the skins.
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
Message 16
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|
I had to miss the second day of the last 51% meeting. When I get some
details as to what was discussed I'll pass along everything I know.
The first day was spent painstakingly reviewing all proposed changes to FAA
forms and orders. This consists largely of 15 people (5 of which are
attorneys) sitting around arguing over whether a sentence should contain the
verb "shall" or "will" instead of "may". The poor typist, who makes the
changes in MS Word on the fly, has to listen to people call out their
favorite keyboard shortcuts amongst all the substantial changes.
We also toured the Epic factory. That was cool.
The process is boring and tedious, but necessary. Kind of like deburring
the words.
The committee
<http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/ef
e4866385f304a0862571b800535d7a/$FILE/Order1110.143.pdf> charter says:
11. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. Interested persons or organizations who are not
committee members but plan to attend a meeting must first acquire approval
from the Director of the Aircraft Certification Service, or his/her
delegate. The committee's meetings are generally not open to the public,
however anyone in attendance may make comments or provide input, but such
comments or input must be made through one of the committee members.
And if you really want to see the sausage before it goes in the grinder you
could do a FOI request. I'm not trying to be difficult, just playing by the
rules. We were asked not to show the changes around before our proposal is
done in order to speed up the process. Keep in mind we are working on
proposed changes, which will not be finalized before the public gets a
chance to comment.
We are meeting next in Milwaukee on May 8 and 9. I know Don Lausman at FAA
in Washington monitors this list and could probably give some pointers as to
how to attend.
As for the 51% rule and what the public wants, as far as I can tell, there
is no clear majority opinion. Half want the rule to stay the same and half
want to allow more builder assistance. What is clear is that no one wants
more government intrusion into how we go about building our planes. The FAA
is clear: the rule is has been allowed to slip. The committee thinks
that's because no one knows how to interpret it. Our goal right now is to
provide guidance that gives DARs and inspectors very clear tools to make a
51% determination.
Later, we will take up the question as to whether or not we want an official
way around "amatuer built" but for now we are firming up the rules we now
have in place.
Please let me know what you think.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: re: RV10-List: NPRM Process
>>The members met in secret session last week. Notes of the meetings are
closed to the aviation public.
It should always be a concern in a free society when any "public" body meets
in "secret sessions" about matters that will affect the public. I for one
don't think anything was broken with the 51% rule so why are folks tinkering
with it trying to "fix" it. While it is not perfect, any tinkering by the
government and special interest parties will just create a bureaucracy of
additional paperwork benefiting the few and annoying the many.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: NPRM Process |
Dave;
Thanks for dealing with all this boredom to assure we are doing the
right this for the right people.
Our goal right now is to provide guidance that gives DARs and inspectors
very clear tools to make a 51% determination
I like this approach. If we can educate the inspectors and leave the
builders "as is" we are doing everything I would hope for; Changing the
way I have to get my plane inspected. By providing detailed questions
from the DAR or FAA about the plane will certainly put a builder on the
spot to know their plane, but a real builder should know it or they
missed something critical in the building.
Thanks again!
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Saylor
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: NPRM Process
I had to miss the second day of the last 51% meeting. When I get some
details as to what was discussed I'll pass along everything I know.
The first day was spent painstakingly reviewing all proposed changes
to FAA forms and orders. This consists largely of 15 people (5 of which
are attorneys) sitting around arguing over whether a sentence should
contain the verb "shall" or "will" instead of "may". The poor typist,
who makes the changes in MS Word on the fly, has to listen to people
call out their favorite keyboard shortcuts amongst all the substantial
changes.
We also toured the Epic factory. That was cool.
The process is boring and tedious, but necessary. Kind of like
deburring the words.
The committee charter says:
11. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. Interested persons or organizations who are
not committee members but plan to attend a meeting must first acquire
approval from the Director of the Aircraft Certification Service, or
his/her delegate. The committee's meetings are generally not open to the
public, however anyone in attendance may make comments or provide input,
but such comments or input must be made through one of the committee
members.
And if you really want to see the sausage before it goes in the
grinder you could do a FOI request. I'm not trying to be difficult,
just playing by the rules. We were asked not to show the changes around
before our proposal is done in order to speed up the process. Keep in
mind we are working on proposed changes, which will not be finalized
before the public gets a chance to comment.
We are meeting next in Milwaukee on May 8 and 9. I know Don Lausman
at FAA in Washington monitors this list and could probably give some
pointers as to how to attend.
As for the 51% rule and what the public wants, as far as I can tell,
there is no clear majority opinion. Half want the rule to stay the same
and half want to allow more builder assistance. What is clear is that
no one wants more government intrusion into how we go about building our
planes. The FAA is clear: the rule is has been allowed to slip. The
committee thinks that's because no one knows how to interpret it. Our
goal right now is to provide guidance that gives DARs and inspectors
very clear tools to make a 51% determination.
Later, we will take up the question as to whether or not we want an
official way around "amatuer built" but for now we are firming up the
rules we now have in place.
Please let me know what you think.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Curtis
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 9:45 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com; rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: re: RV10-List: NPRM Process
>>The members met in secret session last week. Notes of the meetings
are closed to the aviation public.
It should always be a concern in a free society when any "public" body
meets in "secret sessions" about matters that will affect the public. I
for one don't think anything was broken with the 51% rule so why are
folks tinkering with it trying to "fix" it. While it is not perfect,
any tinkering by the government and special interest parties will just
create a bureaucracy of additional paperwork benefiting the few and
annoying the many.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: NPRM Process |
If I read the ten commandments correctly there really is a HUGE
difference between SHALL & MAY. Keep up the good work, it's important
(IMNSHO) to get it right the first time. KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Saylor
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: NPRM Process
I had to miss the second day of the last 51% meeting. When I get some
details as to what was discussed I'll pass along everything I know.
The first day was spent painstakingly reviewing all proposed changes
to FAA forms and orders. This consists largely of 15 people (5 of which
are attorneys) sitting around arguing over whether a sentence should
contain the verb "shall" or "will" instead of "may". The poor typist,
who makes the changes in MS Word on the fly, has to listen to people
call out their favorite keyboard shortcuts amongst all the substantial
changes.
We also toured the Epic factory. That was cool.
The process is boring and tedious, but necessary. Kind of like
deburring the words.
The committee charter says:
11. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. Interested persons or organizations who are
not committee members but plan to attend a meeting must first acquire
approval from the Director of the Aircraft Certification Service, or
his/her delegate. The committee's meetings are generally not open to the
public, however anyone in attendance may make comments or provide input,
but such comments or input must be made through one of the committee
members.
And if you really want to see the sausage before it goes in the
grinder you could do a FOI request. I'm not trying to be difficult,
just playing by the rules. We were asked not to show the changes around
before our proposal is done in order to speed up the process. Keep in
mind we are working on proposed changes, which will not be finalized
before the public gets a chance to comment.
We are meeting next in Milwaukee on May 8 and 9. I know Don Lausman
at FAA in Washington monitors this list and could probably give some
pointers as to how to attend.
As for the 51% rule and what the public wants, as far as I can tell,
there is no clear majority opinion. Half want the rule to stay the same
and half want to allow more builder assistance. What is clear is that
no one wants more government intrusion into how we go about building our
planes. The FAA is clear: the rule is has been allowed to slip. The
committee thinks that's because no one knows how to interpret it. Our
goal right now is to provide guidance that gives DARs and inspectors
very clear tools to make a 51% determination.
Later, we will take up the question as to whether or not we want an
official way around "amatuer built" but for now we are firming up the
rules we now have in place.
Please let me know what you think.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Curtis
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 9:45 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com; rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: re: RV10-List: NPRM Process
>>The members met in secret session last week. Notes of the meetings
are closed to the aviation public.
It should always be a concern in a free society when any "public" body
meets in "secret sessions" about matters that will affect the public. I
for one don't think anything was broken with the 51% rule so why are
folks tinkering with it trying to "fix" it. While it is not perfect,
any tinkering by the government and special interest parties will just
create a bureaucracy of additional paperwork benefiting the few and
annoying the many.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10? |
The SR22 in cruise and not the SR20. The RV10 will certainly outdo the
SR20 in performance. Jesse mentions Cirrus, specific to airfield, in
either plane he's right about the airfield needed- RV-10 has the Cirrus
beaten.
----- Original Message -----
From: pilotdds@aol.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
I can handily outclimb the cirus sr22,proven on sunday.I think they
are about 10 mph faster in cruise-not more than that.They have more
amenities and cost350-400 thousand more.
-----Original Message-----
From: jesse@saintaviation.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 5:06 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
I agree, but he said =9Cclosest=9D. My uncle flies a
Bonanza and we stopped by to see him recently. The cruise numbers were
as close and efficient as the -10 of any plane I have seen. Yes, the
complexity and cost of the retract makes this possible yet let
desirable. With 4 adults, 80lbs of baggage and only 25 gallons you will
likely be close to an AFT CG problem in any 4-seat plane, even the -10.
Again, it is not as great a plane, IMHO, as the RV-10, but is as close
as they come. When you look at a Cirrus with all of it=99s fame,
you get a full-fuel useful load of around 650 Lbs, which really makes it
a 3-seat plane to get the same range, and it needs a LOT more airfield
to get that. The 182 carries a lot, but doesn=99t go as fast.
Both of these will burn a lot more fuel getting the same distance. The
only thing I hear people say about a Mooney is that the cabin is very
tight/small, but I know very little about them.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Maib
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 11:18 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
I own and fly a 4 seat 1958 J-35 Bonanza. It has a 260 hp Continental
IO-470-N and is a good airplane. BUT, with four adults and 20 lbs of
luggage each, I can only carry about 25 gallons of fuel! Gross weight
and aft CG problem. I have GAMI injectors and run LOP and can get about
165 knots TAS on 11.5 gph. I think the RV-10 handily beats the Bonanza
on all of those counts. The complexity and expense of retractable gear,
the time consuming annual (we do our own annuals), and the expense of
Raytheon parts are another downside. It has been a great airplane and my
wife and I have traveled to both coasts and lots of places in between in
it, but we are really looking forward to our RV-10.
David and Mary Maib
#40559
QB wings
On Mar 12, 2007, at 8:36 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:
4-seat Bonanza, from everything I have heard and seen.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:44 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Which certified comes closest to the RV-10?
A question came up one day while hanger flying. Which certified, old
or new, comes closest to the RV-10, all around? Seating, performance,
handling, payload, comfort, etc etc. Waddya think? Hmmmm?
John Jessen
40328
do not archive
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com
et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
://forums.matronics.com
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from82137/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com" target="_blank">AOL.com.
Message 20
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Sounds like my Oregon Department of Aviation meeting scheduled for
tomorrow AM after 10 hours of Graves at Horizon.
I can relate. I enjoyed Epic as well. Thanks for the post.
John Cox
#40600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: NPRM Process
I had to miss the second day of the last 51% meeting. When I get some
details as to what was discussed I'll pass along everything I know.
The first day was spent painstakingly reviewing all proposed changes to
FAA forms and orders. This consists largely of 15 people (5 of which
are attorneys) sitting around arguing over whether a sentence should
contain the verb "shall" or "will" instead of "may". The poor typist,
who makes the changes in MS Word on the fly, has to listen to people
call out their favorite keyboard shortcuts amongst all the substantial
changes.
We also toured the Epic factory. That was cool.
The process is boring and tedious, but necessary. Kind of like
deburring the words.
The committee charter
<http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/
0/efe4866385f304a0862571b800535d7a/$FILE/Order1110.143.pdf> says:
11. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. Interested persons or organizations who are
not committee members but plan to attend a meeting must first acquire
approval from the Director of the Aircraft Certification Service, or
his/her delegate. The committee's meetings are generally not open to the
public, however anyone in attendance may make comments or provide input,
but such comments or input must be made through one of the committee
members.
And if you really want to see the sausage before it goes in the grinder
you could do a FOI request. I'm not trying to be difficult, just
playing by the rules. We were asked not to show the changes around
before our proposal is done in order to speed up the process. Keep in
mind we are working on proposed changes, which will not be finalized
before the public gets a chance to comment.
We are meeting next in Milwaukee on May 8 and 9. I know Don Lausman at
FAA in Washington monitors this list and could probably give some
pointers as to how to attend.
As for the 51% rule and what the public wants, as far as I can tell,
there is no clear majority opinion. Half want the rule to stay the same
and half want to allow more builder assistance. What is clear is that
no one wants more government intrusion into how we go about building our
planes. The FAA is clear: the rule is has been allowed to slip. The
committee thinks that's because no one knows how to interpret it. Our
goal right now is to provide guidance that gives DARs and inspectors
very clear tools to make a 51% determination.
Later, we will take up the question as to whether or not we want an
official way around "amatuer built" but for now we are firming up the
rules we now have in place.
Please let me know what you think.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Curtis
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: re: RV10-List: NPRM Process
>>The members met in secret session last week. Notes of the meetings are
closed to the aviation public.
It should always be a concern in a free society when any "public" body
meets in "secret sessions" about matters that will affect the public. I
for one don't think anything was broken with the 51% rule so why are
folks tinkering with it trying to "fix" it. While it is not perfect,
any tinkering by the government and special interest parties will just
create a bureaucracy of additional paperwork benefiting the few and
annoying the many.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 21
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*Michael Wollenzohn wrote me off line aksing a question re the Nav
lights, I've been unable to reply as his mail system thinks my message
is spam, so I'm replying online in the hope he will read it.
His inquiry:
*
Hello Deems,
just a quick question did you just bolt the NAV light plates to the wing
tip with the existing 2 bolts (Strobe plate) or did you also glue it?
Best Regrads from Switzerland
Michael
And my reply
Mike, I didn't glue any of the pieces I just attached them using the
hardware.
Deems
Do Not Archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
Hey all -
Just thought I'd take an informal poll to see whether people were having
troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what people think
of them? More and more I get the sense that the Vans design on some
stuff can be summed up as simple, light, and effective when it works.
Plastic brake lines? The race car builder in me says "nope". The
airplane builder in me says "I have no clue whether this will break or
not". Somebody got the straight poop out there?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
Message 23
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| Subject: | Performance Comparison |
Regarding the comparison to other aircraft:
Here is a performance comparison someone put together a long time ago. I have
the original power point and would add to it if someone has the specific data
points for other aircraft of interest. (Bonanza, etc).
I don't know who did this originally, but I did keep a copy.
The points used:
Price, wingspan, length, wing area, empty weight, gross weight, useful load, useful
load - full fuel, wing loading, power loading, engine horsepower, fuel capacity,
cruise speed, takeoff performance, landing performance, range, climb rate.
Jim Combs
N312F (40192)
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: NPRM Process |
There's a very well written article in this month's Kitiplanes by Ed
Wischmeyer. It's called "Builder Assistance - Options abound, but
what kind of help is legal?" I'd have to say, I think he hit the
nail on the head. (or is it the rivet?)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 25
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G'day all,
I would be interested in hearing opinions about the optimum shop
temperature for glueing the transparenices. I believe it is wise to
cut/drill/work plexi while the shop temperature is fairly warm. The
recent weather in South Oz has topped 40deg C, and I have had NO trouble
trimming the windscreen and side windows. The higher temperature
clearly makes the plexi more flexible/pliable.
I was wondering whether there is a down side to installing the
transparencies when it is too hot - other than the adhesive going off
too quickly.
Because the plexi will be very flexible, it could be possible to install
the transparency with a warp or twist (eg not enough has been trimmed
and it can be forced into the recess.) When the temperature drops, the
plexi will tend to its original formed shape and introduce stress in
both the plexi and the joint. Consequences are obvious.
I guess an advantage of glueing in the hotter temperatures is that the
plexi has expanded and should be a better fit to the recess. If glued
in cold weather the plexi would expand in the heat with the potential to
'pop out' of the recess.
Not a big issue for sure. But as others have said - 'enquiring minds
need to know'. Would it be better to wait for some cooler weather
before glueing the transparencies?
In writing this, it occurs that the same question could be asked of
glueing/fitting the doors - jeez my head hurts ;-)
Cheers,
Ron
187 finishing
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
Have had them in an RV6 for 13 years without any problems. Using
them on the RV10 expecting the same. If it is not broken, don't fix it!
Do not archive.
On Mar 13, 2007, at 6:02 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:
> Hey all '
>
>
> Just thought I=92d take an informal poll to see whether people were
> having troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what
> people think of them? More and more I get the sense that the Vans
> design on some stuff can be summed up as simple, light, and
> effective when it works. Plastic brake lines? The race car
> builder in me says =93nope=94. The airplane builder in me says =93I
have
> no clue whether this will break or not=94. Somebody got the straight
> poop out there?
>
>
> cj
>
> #40410
>
> fuse
>
> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
List
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
I'm not sure of the long-term durability of the plastic brake lines,
but they do serve as one important safety feature. Because they are
opaque you can see the red brake fluid inside and you can tell if you
have air in the system.
Regards,
Mike Schipper
#40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com
RV-9A - N63MS - Flying
On Mar 13, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:
> Hey all '
>
>
> Just thought I=92d take an informal poll to see whether people were
> having troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what
> people think of them? More and more I get the sense that the Vans
> design on some stuff can be summed up as simple, light, and
> effective when it works. Plastic brake lines? The race car
> builder in me says =93nope=94. The airplane builder in me says =93I
have
> no clue whether this will break or not=94. Somebody got the straight
> poop out there?
>
>
> cj
>
> #40410
>
> fuse
>
> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
List
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 28
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For all the reasons that you mention, I would plan on glueing these in when
the temperature is the most similair to the temperature that the plane will
be spending most of its time in. The plexiglass really expands in the warm
weather...a lot!.
Consider summer temperatures vs winter temperatures in your area and whether
the plane will be in a hanger or outside in the sun.
My experience is based on my sailplane plexiglass canopy which is atleast
four feet long. It can be way over 110 degrees F while flying low or on the
ground and below freezing at 18K even on the same say in the summer months.
Oh, one more thing to consider, things will be getting hotter regardless of
how much weight Al Gore has put on or how much he is not practicing what he
preaches. Saying no, don't make it so.
After all, I hope I am wrong...rather error on the cautious side. Then again
Ron, maybe the temperatures you are experiencing are the new average
temperature for your area.
John G.
93 degrees F in Los Angeles in March, Santa Ana winds should have stopped
two months ago and almost no rain this year.
>From: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV10-List: Transparencies
>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:43:15 +1030
>
>G'day all,
>
>I would be interested in hearing opinions about the optimum shop
>temperature for glueing the transparenices. I believe it is wise to
>cut/drill/work plexi while the shop temperature is fairly warm. The
>recent weather in South Oz has topped 40deg C, and I have had NO trouble
>trimming the windscreen and side windows. The higher temperature
>clearly makes the plexi more flexible/pliable.
>
>I was wondering whether there is a down side to installing the
>transparencies when it is too hot - other than the adhesive going off
>too quickly.
>
>Because the plexi will be very flexible, it could be possible to install
>the transparency with a warp or twist (eg not enough has been trimmed
>and it can be forced into the recess.) When the temperature drops, the
>plexi will tend to its original formed shape and introduce stress in
>both the plexi and the joint. Consequences are obvious.
>
>I guess an advantage of glueing in the hotter temperatures is that the
>plexi has expanded and should be a better fit to the recess. If glued
>in cold weather the plexi would expand in the heat with the potential to
>'pop out' of the recess.
>
>Not a big issue for sure. But as others have said - 'enquiring minds
>need to know'. Would it be better to wait for some cooler weather
>before glueing the transparencies?
>
>In writing this, it occurs that the same question could be asked of
>glueing/fitting the doors - jeez my head hurts ;-)
>
>Cheers,
>Ron
>187 finishing
Message 29
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Thanks John, I like your logic. With a max temp of 45-50C (outside on
hardstand) and min temp of say -20C @ 15K feet, a good bet is 15-20C
(60-70F). Probably close to what everyone would have done anyway, but
I'll need to wait for the wx to cool down a tad.
Cheers,
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Transparencies
--> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
For all the reasons that you mention, I would plan on glueing these in
when the temperature is the most similair to the temperature that the
plane will be spending most of its time in. The plexiglass really
expands in the warm weather...a lot!.
Consider summer temperatures vs winter temperatures in your area and
whether the plane will be in a hanger or outside in the sun.
My experience is based on my sailplane plexiglass canopy which is
atleast four feet long. It can be way over 110 degrees F while flying
low or on the ground and below freezing at 18K even on the same say in
the summer months.
Oh, one more thing to consider, things will be getting hotter regardless
of how much weight Al Gore has put on or how much he is not practicing
what he preaches. Saying no, don't make it so.
After all, I hope I am wrong...rather error on the cautious side. Then
again Ron, maybe the temperatures you are experiencing are the new
average temperature for your area.
John G.
93 degrees F in Los Angeles in March, Santa Ana winds should have
stopped two months ago and almost no rain this year.
>From: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV10-List: Transparencies
>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:43:15 +1030
>
>G'day all,
>
>I would be interested in hearing opinions about the optimum shop
>temperature for glueing the transparenices. I believe it is wise to
>cut/drill/work plexi while the shop temperature is fairly warm. The
>recent weather in South Oz has topped 40deg C, and I have had NO
trouble
>trimming the windscreen and side windows. The higher temperature
>clearly makes the plexi more flexible/pliable.
>
>I was wondering whether there is a down side to installing the
>transparencies when it is too hot - other than the adhesive going off
>too quickly.
>
>Because the plexi will be very flexible, it could be possible to
install
>the transparency with a warp or twist (eg not enough has been trimmed
>and it can be forced into the recess.) When the temperature drops, the
>plexi will tend to its original formed shape and introduce stress in
>both the plexi and the joint. Consequences are obvious.
>
>I guess an advantage of glueing in the hotter temperatures is that the
>plexi has expanded and should be a better fit to the recess. If glued
>in cold weather the plexi would expand in the heat with the potential
to
>'pop out' of the recess.
>
>Not a big issue for sure. But as others have said - 'enquiring minds
>need to know'. Would it be better to wait for some cooler weather
>before glueing the transparencies?
>
>In writing this, it occurs that the same question could be asked of
>glueing/fitting the doors - jeez my head hurts ;-)
>
>Cheers,
>Ron
>187 finishing
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
Lancair Boy's input,
Several documented Lancair cases of plastic brake lines MELTING because of excessive
heat at the wheels. Causes bad steering problems and a few wrecks. I
used braided SSteel flex lines for the last 2 feet to the wheel itself and have
had no problems with the plastic. I do use a polyurethane fuel tubing over
the plastic tube where it might chafe (like on a hot day at Oshkosh in my underpants)!
Just a protective tube over it where you feel it's necessary or might rub on
something. Other than that, use it - it's easy, cheap and works. Some people
say that after ten years or so, you it might crumble but I've had mine for ten
years with no problems.
My brother, in his RV-7A, uses braided SSteel through and through. Whatever
makes you happy.
Matt Reeves
Rochester, NY
Michael Schipper <mike@learningplanet.com> wrote:
I'm not sure of the long-term durability of the plastic brake lines, but they
do serve as one important safety feature. Because they are opaque you can see
the red brake fluid inside and you can tell if you have air in the system.
Regards,
Mike Schipper
#40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com
RV-9A - N63MS - Flying
On Mar 13, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:
Hey all
Just thought Id take an informal poll to see whether people were having troubles
with their plastic brake lines, or in general what people think of them?
More and more I get the sense that the Vans design on some stuff can be summed
up as simple, light, and effective when it works. Plastic brake lines? The
race car builder in me says nope. The airplane builder in me says I have no clue
whether this will break or not. Somebody got the straight poop out there?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
- The RV10-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: Performance Comparison |
AWW..ya forgot the TBM. Carries 6 people, 1000 mile range at better then
300MPH (more than that if they have removed the armor plating & the "Fish")
Short field & climbs out are smartly. Can carry a ton and is fully aerobatic
too. (for a bomber).
KABONG Do Not Archive BUT I agree the RV-10 is the pick of the litter in
it's class. 8*)
----- Original Message -----
From: <jim@CombsFive.Com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:04 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Performance Comparison
> Regarding the comparison to other aircraft:
>
> Here is a performance comparison someone put together a long time ago. I
> have the original power point and would add to it if someone has the
> specific data points for other aircraft of interest. (Bonanza, etc).
>
> I don't know who did this originally, but I did keep a copy.
>
> The points used:
>
> Price, wingspan, length, wing area, empty weight, gross weight, useful
> load, useful load - full fuel, wing loading, power loading, engine
> horsepower, fuel capacity, cruise speed, takeoff performance, landing
> performance, range, climb rate.
>
> Jim Combs
> N312F (40192)
>
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: elevator control horn drilling |
John, looks like I'm going down a route similar to yours. Thanks for
the pics. What rivets did you use?
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
> I had the additional requirement of needing to align my counter
> balance arms, my horn hole was slightly less than 90 degrees itrue in
> all dimensions. I ended doing the plate and riveting it on to the horn.
>
> I"ll send picture tomorrow if you are interested.
>
> JOhn G.
>
>
>> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
>> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:25:58 -0500
>>
>>
>> John (or anyone), what was Vans final advice regarding this
>> situation? I may be facing a similar situation with reduced material
>> between the hole and the end of the horn.
>>
>> I've searched the forum but can't find additional references.
>>
>> Thanks
>> do not archive
>>
>> John Gonzalez wrote:
>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Richard,
>>>
>>> I just got off the phone with Van's and asked them to have the
>>> powers that be review the building manual and make a comment about
>>> being careful to respect the up/down dimension of where the drill
>>> will exit out of the second hole on the second horn. Not jus tbe
>>> concerned about the most aft horn being the designated guide.
>>>
>>> I wanted to ask you the minimum edge distance as you stated, is that
>>> in steel or in alluminum?
>>>
>>> I discussed the issue of welding on a plate and and he did not
>>> think that was necessary, there also could be a weakening of the
>>> original material at the intersection of the new plate and the horn.
>>>
>>> Just for discussion, (If I could not sleep because of this) he
>>> discussed an alternate remedy, riveting another plate of similair
>>> material(4130 steel) with say 6 rivets using the same hole, just to
>>> extend the gap between the hole edge and the bottom edge of the horn.
>>>
>>> As I have stated, I have 6/32 of material on the bottom edge from
>>> hole edge to horn bottom edge, and when this is all torqued down
>>> with washers pinching this together I wonder how exposed to stresses
>>> this 6/32" of material will be. still need to review the
>>> connection, but alteast there are a couple of alternative remedies
>>> other than rework
>>>
>>> JOhn G. 409
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked version |
I used six 470-4 of the correct length. Daniel Lloyd might be willing to
send on an extra 4130 steel plate I fabricated after he takes his from the
two I sent him.
Again, I'll try to explain the basics:
1) Chose the best hole: usually the one you drilled first.
2) Line up you counterbalance arms with the end of the HS. Lock them down
with clamps, not just Duct tape.
3) put your fabricated indexing block that you drilled(Make sure this is
perfectly 90 degrees in all directions, in other words not the cause of the
original problem) with a drill press between the two horns.
4) Put your drill bit or bolt through the correct hole and through the block
and see where the second hole is out of alignment.
5) slightly enlarge the second hole only where needed.
6) Temporarily put the plate you get from Daniel on the outside of the
elevator horn (the one with the slightly enlarged hole) and mark the hole
location on the 4130 steel plate.
7) Remove the plate and Drill the plate to the correct hole size.
8) With the plate off, Drill the plate undersize, say #40 for the six
rivets where the meat of the horn and the plate is thickest(Away from the
lightening holes)
9) put the plate back on the elevator horn with the nut going through both
horns and the center drilling block and lock both together with c clamps.
10) with everything locked down perfectly true(Counterbalance arms, etc)
thru drill as many of the #40 holes as possible from the plate into the
elevator horn to size #30. cleco as you go.
11) Now that the everything has been indexed while everything is locked
tight, you can always drill the last remaining hole(s) you can't get to by
removing the elevator.
12) Prime and paint your plate...I used Tempo primer and Tempo Propeller
paint out the the can.
13) Rivet you plate on.
14) No reason the six rivets should fail(remember the horns are riveted to
the ribs and those don't fail), but even if they did the original hole is
still there in the elevator horn and it is only slightly enlarged...you
should be able to land and you might not even experience any
flutter...basically you might not even know.
15) I liked this fix better than welding the plate because the welds screw
up the powder coat and the heat might weaken the part. Welding the hole
closed and re-drilling...don't like re-drilling into non original material.
15 points that might help, but promise me you will not vote for me for
anything except President.
Got to finish this plane before I announce my candacy.
John G.
>From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:29:27 -0400
>
>
>John, looks like I'm going down a route similar to yours. Thanks for the
>pics. What rivets did you use?
>
>John Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>>I had the additional requirement of needing to align my counter balance
>>arms, my horn hole was slightly less than 90 degrees itrue in all
>>dimensions. I ended doing the plate and riveting it on to the horn.
>>
>>I"ll send picture tomorrow if you are interested.
>>
>>JOhn G.
>>
>>
>>>From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
>>>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:25:58 -0500
>>>
>>>
>>>John (or anyone), what was Vans final advice regarding this situation? I
>>>may be facing a similar situation with reduced material between the hole
>>>and the end of the horn.
>>>
>>>I've searched the forum but can't find additional references.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>do not archive
>>>
>>>John Gonzalez wrote:
>>>><indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi Richard,
>>>>
>>>>I just got off the phone with Van's and asked them to have the powers
>>>>that be review the building manual and make a comment about being
>>>>careful to respect the up/down dimension of where the drill will exit
>>>>out of the second hole on the second horn. Not jus tbe concerned about
>>>>the most aft horn being the designated guide.
>>>>
>>>>I wanted to ask you the minimum edge distance as you stated, is that in
>>>>steel or in alluminum?
>>>>
>>>>I discussed the issue of welding on a plate and and he did not think
>>>>that was necessary, there also could be a weakening of the original
>>>>material at the intersection of the new plate and the horn.
>>>>
>>>>Just for discussion, (If I could not sleep because of this) he discussed
>>>>an alternate remedy, riveting another plate of similair material(4130
>>>>steel) with say 6 rivets using the same hole, just to extend the gap
>>>>between the hole edge and the bottom edge of the horn.
>>>>
>>>>As I have stated, I have 6/32 of material on the bottom edge from hole
>>>>edge to horn bottom edge, and when this is all torqued down with washers
>>>>pinching this together I wonder how exposed to stresses this 6/32" of
>>>>material will be. still need to review the connection, but alteast
>>>>there are a couple of alternative remedies other than rework
>>>>
>>>>JOhn G. 409
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
Had them in my -6 since 1998 with no problems and having them in the 10 fly
ing. I think the design was fairly well thought out. The lines on the pil
ot pedals are braided. Also the lines going to the wheels are not plastic.
Anh
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Johnston
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:02 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
Hey all -
Just thought I'd take an informal poll to see whether people were having
troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what people think of
them? More and more I get the sense that the Vans design on some stuff ca
n be summed up as simple, light, and effective when it works. Plastic brak
e lines? The race car builder in me says "nope". The airplane builder in
me says "I have no clue whether this will break or not". Somebody got the
straight poop out there?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
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