Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:56 AM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Phillips, Jack)
2. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: Performance Comparison (Jesse Saint)
3. 05:24 AM - Re: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked version (Jesse Saint)
4. 06:27 AM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
5. 07:54 AM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (John Gonzalez)
6. 07:59 AM - Re: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked version (John Gonzalez)
7. 08:25 AM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (William Curtis)
8. 08:36 AM - Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Niko)
9. 08:41 AM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Tim Olson)
10. 08:47 AM - Re: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked version (Jesse Saint)
11. 09:18 AM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (John Gonzalez)
12. 09:32 AM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Jesse Saint)
13. 10:45 AM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Niko)
14. 11:24 AM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
15. 12:05 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (John Gonzalez)
16. 12:18 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
17. 12:27 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Rick)
18. 12:27 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Dj Merrill)
19. 12:30 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Tim Olson)
20. 12:49 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
21. 12:49 PM - Nose wheel (John Dunne)
22. 01:17 PM - Re: Nose wheel (Tim Olson)
23. 01:42 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (John Gonzalez)
24. 01:53 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Rick)
25. 01:59 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Rick)
26. 02:18 PM - Re: six dimples molded into door shells not there? (PJ Seipel)
27. 02:34 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (The McGough Family)
28. 02:37 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
29. 03:20 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (John Gonzalez)
30. 03:26 PM - Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method (Niko)
31. 03:28 PM - Figure for Axle Extension email (Niko)
32. 03:45 PM - Re: Nose wheel (Jesse Saint)
33. 04:39 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (gary)
34. 05:09 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Jesse Saint)
35. 06:35 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (William Curtis)
36. 06:53 PM - Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? (Chris Johnston)
37. 08:03 PM - Dentist on the run...was brute force axle (Rick)
38. 08:04 PM - Re: Figure for Axle Extension email (Rick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
John,
It might benefit you to buy the four Tony Bingelis books from EAA. Tony Bingelis
was a master aircraft builder and had a knack for explaining aircraft systems
in language anyone can understand. He built a number of aircraft in his life,
including an RV-3, RV-4, and RV-6. He wrote four books: The Sportplane Builder,
Sportplane Construction techniques, Firewall Forward, and Tony Bingelis
on Engines. All are worth reading (and are enjoyable to read). They should
be required reading for anyone building an airplane, and pretty much ARE required
for anyone building a plane from scratch, rather than from a nice kit like
our RV-10's. There are a couple of chapters in one of them on aircraft brake
systems, how to install them, how to bleed them and how to maintain them.
I would recommend that anyone building an airplane should own these four books,
as well as a copy of AC43-13.
Jack Phillips
40610
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
I was trying to figure out how the brake fluid comes only in on the top
threaded insert and does not go back out from the same insert. It must be
that the actuation of the inside piston must allow fluid to only go out the
bottom insert when the pedal is pushed.. Basically the plastic breaklines
leading back to the reservoir are not under pressure, but the plastic lines
going to the pilot's side are under pressure when the co pilot pushes the
pedal(s). The piston in action on said cylinder no longer give access of
fluid to the upper insert. The actuation of the pedal itself, acts as the
gate.
Sorry, in the instructions there was so much talk about right and left
master cylinders I had to understand it because on three of the cylinder I
took them out of their bags and could not be sure there wasn't something
different about each cylinder. UNderstanding the mechanism and looking at
the flat spot on the bottom of the outside of the cylinder is enough
information in itself. My setup is fine now that I have thoroughly confused
you all.
JOhn G.
>From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>, <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:40:39 -0500
>
> Not sure I understand your question but here is a schematic of the Matco
>brake master cylinder.
>http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/MC-4A_install.jpg This is
>roughly the RV-10 system, just with the pilot and co-pilot position
>reversed. No check valves (anti "backflow device").
>http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/mastercylinder20a.jpg If
>the plastic portion was to break, as long as there was some fluid in them,
>they would effectively become mini-individual fluid reservoirs. The
>important lines are the last lines leaving the cylinders to the calipers.
>In our kits, these are steel braded. Everything above them can be
>considered reservoir. Remember aircraft brake systems are not like auto
>brake systems which is why you bleed by pumping from the "bottom" or
>sucking from the "top" From the top
>http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/VACUUMBLEED.jpg From the
>bottom http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/PRESS_BLEED.jpg
>
>William
>http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
>
>----------------------------------------
>
>Where in this system is the one way valve located(Backflow device)?
>
>In otherwards, when the pedal is pressed does the pressure only go out of
>the the bottom fitting in the cylinder or is the backflow valve in the base
>of the brake fluid reservior.
>
>John G.
>
>Do NOt Archive
>
> >From: "William Curtis"
> >To: ,
> >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
> >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:28:05 -0500
> >
> >
> >
> >Guys,
> >
> >Ask yourself, what is the worst case scenario if the plastic portion of
>the
> >brake system broke? Unless it broke at the pilot side tubes, only the
> >co-pilot will not be able to brake and you would have a mess of red
>fluid.
> >Even if it broke at the pilot side tubes you should still have enough
>fluid
> >for at least one brake application from the pilot position. The plastic
> >portion is relatively low pressure and a break there should not cause a
> >failure of the entire system. Certainly other than plastic tube is
>great,
> >but worth the change from the stock design? Ah?
> >
> >Unlike our recent axle support re-design, this would be of dubious added
> >value.
> >
> >William
> >http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> >
> >----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >Chris,
> >
> >I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you
> >stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3
> >brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind
>to
> >me to do this upgrade.
> >
> >go to www.anplumbing.com
> >
> >type this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take
>you
> >to the page for these lines. "63010112"
> >
> >After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled
> >makes my finger tips happy!!
> >
> >Rick S================
>
>
_________________________________________________
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Performance Comparison |
Yeah, and if they follow the pattern of Van's, it will actually cost
$300,000-350,000.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim@CombsFive.Com
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Re: RV10-List: Performance Comparison
Did you see the cost of the kit? 90K
and the estimate of a finished airplane? 250K
Jim C
Do Not Archive
===========================================================
From: jesse@saintaviation.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Performance Comparison
I have also compiled a comparison chart on my website comparing
performance of the RV-10 and several others, both certified and
experimental. It can be seen at www.saintaviation.com/perf.htm. This is
all data that I got from the respective websites.
Speaking of which, has anybody seen the article in Kitplanes about the
Raven 500? They are claiming a max gross 900 lbs over the RV-10, yet
still a 650ft takeoff roll and 1500fpm climb, with the same engine. If
they can do it and still get 197Kts, then more power to them, but I highly
doubt it. Any other thoughts on that? Oh yeah, and how about a
500-600hour build. That would be, no doubt, without finishing (paint,
interior, etc.).
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
> Regarding the comparison to other aircraft:
>
> Here is a performance comparison someone put together a long time ago. I
> have the original power point and would add to it if someone has the
> specific data points for other aircraft of interest. (Bonanza, etc).
>
> I don't know who did this originally, but I did keep a copy.
>
> The points used:
>
> Price, wingspan, length, wing area, empty weight, gross weight, useful
> load, useful load - full fuel, wing loading, power loading, engine
> horsepower, fuel capacity, cruise speed, takeoff performance, landing
> performance, range, climb rate.
>
> Jim Combs
> N312F (40192)
>
===========================================================
--
4:51 PM
Message 3
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| Subject: | elevator control horn drilling, spell checked version |
I have seen a little variation in this and I can't explain it. For looks,
having the counterbalance arms both lined up with the horizontal is more
important, For performance, probably having them somewhere in the middle of
any variation would give you the best performance. With the rudder on, you
cannot see from one elevator to the other, so performance is the only issue
if they are not perfect. The weldments definitely do vary a fair bit, but
this is not seen and the plans have instructions for handling any variation.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MauleDriver
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
version
Hmmm. I will check it with a string (perhaps there's a laser in there
somewhere). Eyeballing it seems pretty clear but I'm all learning curve
at this point. It should all line up (weldments excepted).
Thanks for the extra plate.
Bill "Fix the elevator horn" Watson
'605
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> I would not be so sure your trailing edges are perfectly aligned if
> the counterbalance arms are off.
>
> I would lock up the counterbalance arms, truing them to the ends of
> the HS and then pull a string line between the trailing edges of the
> two elevators. When you think about it, because everything was
> designed by computer and fabricated by machine the only way I can
> figure it would be out of wack was if there is a twist in the elevator
> spars, which is very possible.
>
> I think more likely there was an issue with the drilling of the second
> horn, my drilling block was made by using a shopsmith in drill press
> mode and the drill bit creeps and the table was not perfectly true in
> all directions. Hence, I since purchased a very nice drill press.
>
> My feeling, see what the string line shows, but I trued the
> counterbalance arms based on my thoughts spelled out above. oh, I also
> had the hole distance issue on the second horn.
>
> JOhn G.
>
>
>> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
>> version
>> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:40:22 -0400
>>
>>
>> Very much appreciated John!
>>
>> Like others, my counterbalances are not perfectly aligned when the
>> trailing edges are aligned, but oh well.
>>
>> Bill "Empennage complete except for ##@% elevator horn, starting QB
>> wings" Watson
>> 40605
>>
>> John Gonzalez wrote:
>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>
>>> I used six 470-4 of the correct length. Daniel Lloyd might be
>>> willing to send on an extra 4130 steel plate I fabricated after he
>>> takes his from the two I sent him.
>>>
>>> Again, I'll try to explain the basics:
>>>
>>> 1) Chose the best hole: usually the one you drilled first.
>>> 2) Line up you counterbalance arms with the end of the HS. Lock them
>>> down with clamps, not just Duct tape.
>>> 3) put your fabricated indexing block that you drilled(Make sure
>>> this is perfectly 90 degrees in all directions, in other words not
>>> the cause of the original problem) with a drill press between the
>>> two horns.
>>> 4) Put your drill bit or bolt through the correct hole and through
>>> the block and see where the second hole is out of alignment.
>>> 5) slightly enlarge the second hole only where needed.
>>> 6) Temporarily put the plate you get from Daniel on the outside of
>>> the elevator horn (the one with the slightly enlarged hole) and mark
>>> the hole location on the 4130 steel plate.
>>> 7) Remove the plate and Drill the plate to the correct hole size.
>>> 8) With the plate off, Drill the plate undersize, say #40 for the
>>> six rivets where the meat of the horn and the plate is thickest(Away
>>> from the lightening holes)
>>> 9) put the plate back on the elevator horn with the nut going
>>> through both horns and the center drilling block and lock both
>>> together with c clamps.
>>> 10) with everything locked down perfectly true(Counterbalance arms,
>>> etc) thru drill as many of the #40 holes as possible from the plate
>>> into the elevator horn to size #30. cleco as you go.
>>> 11) Now that the everything has been indexed while everything is
>>> locked tight, you can always drill the last remaining hole(s) you
>>> can't get to by removing the elevator.
>>> 12) Prime and paint your plate...I used Tempo primer and Tempo
>>> Propeller paint out the the can.
>>> 13) Rivet you plate on.
>>> 14) No reason the six rivets should fail(remember the horns are
>>> riveted to the ribs and those don't fail), but even if they did the
>>> original hole is still there in the elevator horn and it is only
>>> slightly enlarged...you should be able to land and you might not
>>> even experience any flutter...basically you might not even know.
>>> 15) I liked this fix better than welding the plate because the welds
>>> screw up the powder coat and the heat might weaken the part. Welding
>>> the hole closed and re-drilling...don't like re-drilling into non
>>> original material.
>>>
>>> 15 points that might help, but promise me you will not vote for me
>>> for anything except President.
>>> Got to finish this plane before I announce my candacy.
>>>
>>> John G.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:29:27 -0400
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John, looks like I'm going down a route similar to yours. Thanks
>>>> for the pics. What rivets did you use?
>>>>
>>>> John Gonzalez wrote:
>>>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> I had the additional requirement of needing to align my counter
>>>>> balance arms, my horn hole was slightly less than 90 degrees itrue
>>>>> in all dimensions. I ended doing the plate and riveting it on to
>>>>> the horn.
>>>>>
>>>>> I"ll send picture tomorrow if you are interested.
>>>>>
>>>>> JOhn G.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>>>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:25:58 -0500
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John (or anyone), what was Vans final advice regarding this
>>>>>> situation? I may be facing a similar situation with reduced
>>>>>> material between the hole and the end of the horn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've searched the forum but can't find additional references.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> do not archive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Gonzalez wrote:
>>>>>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just got off the phone with Van's and asked them to have the
>>>>>>> powers that be review the building manual and make a comment
>>>>>>> about being careful to respect the up/down dimension of where
>>>>>>> the drill will exit out of the second hole on the second horn.
>>>>>>> Not jus tbe concerned about the most aft horn being the
>>>>>>> designated guide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wanted to ask you the minimum edge distance as you stated, is
>>>>>>> that in steel or in alluminum?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I discussed the issue of welding on a plate and and he did not
>>>>>>> think that was necessary, there also could be a weakening of the
>>>>>>> original material at the intersection of the new plate and the
>>>>>>> horn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just for discussion, (If I could not sleep because of this) he
>>>>>>> discussed an alternate remedy, riveting another plate of
>>>>>>> similair material(4130 steel) with say 6 rivets using the same
>>>>>>> hole, just to extend the gap between the hole edge and the
>>>>>>> bottom edge of the horn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I have stated, I have 6/32 of material on the bottom edge
>>>>>>> from hole edge to horn bottom edge, and when this is all torqued
>>>>>>> down with washers pinching this together I wonder how exposed to
>>>>>>> stresses this 6/32" of material will be. still need to review
>>>>>>> the connection, but alteast there are a couple of alternative
>>>>>>> remedies other than rework
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JOhn G. 409
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
4:51 PM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying RV's
are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
as you imply.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:03 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
As a result of so many other aircraft having problems with the plastic
lines provided, I am following the path to safety of the plastic
aircraft builders and choosing the prudent course. Non-plastic.
Is seems easier to learn from the practices of those with real field
experience than trust an untrained path of technical help that they
might be okay.. but try them anyway. Converting speed and momentum into
a motion at rest in a short distance and interval of time is my final
goal after a great flight.
John Cox
#40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
Chris,
I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you
stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3
brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind
to me to do this upgrade.
go to www.anplumbing.com
type this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take
you to the page for these lines. "63010112"
After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled
makes my finger tips happy!!
Rick S.
40185
Message 5
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
Thanks Jack,
I have the books and have read them. Only that I read them back before I
started building. If you re- read Van'd directions on the breakline
installation, you'll understand why I had to understand the system rather
than simply following a receipe. I took three of the cylinders out of their
bags and threw the bags away. There are no makings on the cylinders
themselves, only the bottom attatchment points are different.
JOhn G.
Do nOt Archive
>From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:55:00 -0400
>
><Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
>
>John,
>
>It might benefit you to buy the four Tony Bingelis books from EAA. Tony
>Bingelis was a master aircraft builder and had a knack for explaining
>aircraft systems in language anyone can understand. He built a number of
>aircraft in his life, including an RV-3, RV-4, and RV-6. He wrote four
>books: The Sportplane Builder, Sportplane Construction techniques,
>Firewall Forward, and Tony Bingelis on Engines. All are worth reading (and
>are enjoyable to read). They should be required reading for anyone
>building an airplane, and pretty much ARE required for anyone building a
>plane from scratch, rather than from a nice kit like our RV-10's. There
>are a couple of chapters in one of them on aircraft brake systems, how to
>install them, how to bleed them and how to maintain them.
>
>I would recommend that anyone building an airplane should own these four
>books, as well as a copy of AC43-13.
>
>Jack Phillips
>40610
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
>Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:54 AM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
>
>
>I was trying to figure out how the brake fluid comes only in on the top
>threaded insert and does not go back out from the same insert. It must be
>that the actuation of the inside piston must allow fluid to only go out the
>bottom insert when the pedal is pushed.. Basically the plastic breaklines
>leading back to the reservoir are not under pressure, but the plastic lines
>going to the pilot's side are under pressure when the co pilot pushes the
>pedal(s). The piston in action on said cylinder no longer give access of
>fluid to the upper insert. The actuation of the pedal itself, acts as the
>gate.
>
>Sorry, in the instructions there was so much talk about right and left
>master cylinders I had to understand it because on three of the cylinder I
>took them out of their bags and could not be sure there wasn't something
>different about each cylinder. UNderstanding the mechanism and looking at
>the flat spot on the bottom of the outside of the cylinder is enough
>information in itself. My setup is fine now that I have thoroughly confused
>you all.
>
>JOhn G.
>
> >From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
> >To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>, <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
> >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:40:39 -0500
> >
> > Not sure I understand your question but here is a schematic of the
>Matco
> >brake master cylinder.
> >http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/MC-4A_install.jpg This
>is
> >roughly the RV-10 system, just with the pilot and co-pilot position
> >reversed. No check valves (anti "backflow device").
> >http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/mastercylinder20a.jpg If
> >the plastic portion was to break, as long as there was some fluid in
>them,
> >they would effectively become mini-individual fluid reservoirs. The
> >important lines are the last lines leaving the cylinders to the
>calipers.
> >In our kits, these are steel braded. Everything above them can be
> >considered reservoir. Remember aircraft brake systems are not like auto
> >brake systems which is why you bleed by pumping from the "bottom" or
> >sucking from the "top" From the top
> >http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/VACUUMBLEED.jpg From the
> >bottom http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/PRESS_BLEED.jpg
> >
> >William
> >http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> >
> >----------------------------------------
> >
> >Where in this system is the one way valve located(Backflow device)?
> >
> >In otherwards, when the pedal is pressed does the pressure only go out of
> >the the bottom fitting in the cylinder or is the backflow valve in the
>base
> >of the brake fluid reservior.
> >
> >John G.
> >
> >Do NOt Archive
> >
> > >From: "William Curtis"
> > >To: ,
> > >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
> > >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:28:05 -0500
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Guys,
> > >
> > >Ask yourself, what is the worst case scenario if the plastic portion of
> >the
> > >brake system broke? Unless it broke at the pilot side tubes, only the
> > >co-pilot will not be able to brake and you would have a mess of red
> >fluid.
> > >Even if it broke at the pilot side tubes you should still have enough
> >fluid
> > >for at least one brake application from the pilot position. The
>plastic
> > >portion is relatively low pressure and a break there should not cause a
> > >failure of the entire system. Certainly other than plastic tube is
> >great,
> > >but worth the change from the stock design? Ah?
> > >
> > >Unlike our recent axle support re-design, this would be of dubious
>added
> > >value.
> > >
> > >William
> > >http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> > >
> > >----------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >Chris,
> > >
> > >I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you
> > >stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon
>-3
> > >brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of
>mind
> >to
> > >me to do this upgrade.
> > >
> > >go to www.anplumbing.com
> > >
> > >type this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take
> >you
> > >to the page for these lines. "63010112"
> > >
> > >After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled
> > >makes my finger tips happy!!
> > >
> > >Rick S================
> >
> >
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | elevator control horn drilling, spell checked version |
The weldments don't effect the way the elevators hang, it is only when you
tie the two elevators together that it makes things possibly out of
alignment.
Thats why the descrepency is either due to the a twist in the elevator
spar(s), twist in the HS or when you join the two horns together to make
them as one.
John G.
Do not archive
>From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@saintaviation.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
>version
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:23:54 -0400
>
>
>I have seen a little variation in this and I can't explain it. For looks,
>having the counterbalance arms both lined up with the horizontal is more
>important, For performance, probably having them somewhere in the middle
>of
>any variation would give you the best performance. With the rudder on, you
>cannot see from one elevator to the other, so performance is the only issue
>if they are not perfect. The weldments definitely do vary a fair bit, but
>this is not seen and the plans have instructions for handling any
>variation.
>
>Jesse Saint
>Saint Aviation, Inc.
>jesse@saintaviation.com
>www.saintaviation.com
>Cell: 352-427-0285
>Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MauleDriver
>Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:35 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
>version
>
>
>Hmmm. I will check it with a string (perhaps there's a laser in there
>somewhere). Eyeballing it seems pretty clear but I'm all learning curve
>at this point. It should all line up (weldments excepted).
>
>Thanks for the extra plate.
>
>Bill "Fix the elevator horn" Watson
>'605
>
>John Gonzalez wrote:
><indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I would not be so sure your trailing edges are perfectly aligned if
> > the counterbalance arms are off.
> >
> > I would lock up the counterbalance arms, truing them to the ends of
> > the HS and then pull a string line between the trailing edges of the
> > two elevators. When you think about it, because everything was
> > designed by computer and fabricated by machine the only way I can
> > figure it would be out of wack was if there is a twist in the elevator
> > spars, which is very possible.
> >
> > I think more likely there was an issue with the drilling of the second
> > horn, my drilling block was made by using a shopsmith in drill press
> > mode and the drill bit creeps and the table was not perfectly true in
> > all directions. Hence, I since purchased a very nice drill press.
> >
> > My feeling, see what the string line shows, but I trued the
> > counterbalance arms based on my thoughts spelled out above. oh, I also
> > had the hole distance issue on the second horn.
> >
> > JOhn G.
> >
> >
> >> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
> >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
> >> version
> >> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:40:22 -0400
> >>
> >>
> >> Very much appreciated John!
> >>
> >> Like others, my counterbalances are not perfectly aligned when the
> >> trailing edges are aligned, but oh well.
> >>
> >> Bill "Empennage complete except for ##@% elevator horn, starting QB
> >> wings" Watson
> >> 40605
> >>
> >> John Gonzalez wrote:
> >>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >>>
> >>> I used six 470-4 of the correct length. Daniel Lloyd might be
> >>> willing to send on an extra 4130 steel plate I fabricated after he
> >>> takes his from the two I sent him.
> >>>
> >>> Again, I'll try to explain the basics:
> >>>
> >>> 1) Chose the best hole: usually the one you drilled first.
> >>> 2) Line up you counterbalance arms with the end of the HS. Lock them
> >>> down with clamps, not just Duct tape.
> >>> 3) put your fabricated indexing block that you drilled(Make sure
> >>> this is perfectly 90 degrees in all directions, in other words not
> >>> the cause of the original problem) with a drill press between the
> >>> two horns.
> >>> 4) Put your drill bit or bolt through the correct hole and through
> >>> the block and see where the second hole is out of alignment.
> >>> 5) slightly enlarge the second hole only where needed.
> >>> 6) Temporarily put the plate you get from Daniel on the outside of
> >>> the elevator horn (the one with the slightly enlarged hole) and mark
> >>> the hole location on the 4130 steel plate.
> >>> 7) Remove the plate and Drill the plate to the correct hole size.
> >>> 8) With the plate off, Drill the plate undersize, say #40 for the
> >>> six rivets where the meat of the horn and the plate is thickest(Away
> >>> from the lightening holes)
> >>> 9) put the plate back on the elevator horn with the nut going
> >>> through both horns and the center drilling block and lock both
> >>> together with c clamps.
> >>> 10) with everything locked down perfectly true(Counterbalance arms,
> >>> etc) thru drill as many of the #40 holes as possible from the plate
> >>> into the elevator horn to size #30. cleco as you go.
> >>> 11) Now that the everything has been indexed while everything is
> >>> locked tight, you can always drill the last remaining hole(s) you
> >>> can't get to by removing the elevator.
> >>> 12) Prime and paint your plate...I used Tempo primer and Tempo
> >>> Propeller paint out the the can.
> >>> 13) Rivet you plate on.
> >>> 14) No reason the six rivets should fail(remember the horns are
> >>> riveted to the ribs and those don't fail), but even if they did the
> >>> original hole is still there in the elevator horn and it is only
> >>> slightly enlarged...you should be able to land and you might not
> >>> even experience any flutter...basically you might not even know.
> >>> 15) I liked this fix better than welding the plate because the welds
> >>> screw up the powder coat and the heat might weaken the part. Welding
> >>> the hole closed and re-drilling...don't like re-drilling into non
> >>> original material.
> >>>
> >>> 15 points that might help, but promise me you will not vote for me
> >>> for anything except President.
> >>> Got to finish this plane before I announce my candacy.
> >>>
> >>> John G.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
> >>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
> >>>> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:29:27 -0400
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> John, looks like I'm going down a route similar to yours. Thanks
> >>>> for the pics. What rivets did you use?
> >>>>
> >>>> John Gonzalez wrote:
> >>>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I had the additional requirement of needing to align my counter
> >>>>> balance arms, my horn hole was slightly less than 90 degrees itrue
> >>>>> in all dimensions. I ended doing the plate and riveting it on to
> >>>>> the horn.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I"ll send picture tomorrow if you are interested.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> JOhn G.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
> >>>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
> >>>>>> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:25:58 -0500
> >>>>>>
><MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John (or anyone), what was Vans final advice regarding this
> >>>>>> situation? I may be facing a similar situation with reduced
> >>>>>> material between the hole and the end of the horn.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've searched the forum but can't find additional references.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>> do not archive
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John Gonzalez wrote:
> >>>>>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Richard,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I just got off the phone with Van's and asked them to have the
> >>>>>>> powers that be review the building manual and make a comment
> >>>>>>> about being careful to respect the up/down dimension of where
> >>>>>>> the drill will exit out of the second hole on the second horn.
> >>>>>>> Not jus tbe concerned about the most aft horn being the
> >>>>>>> designated guide.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I wanted to ask you the minimum edge distance as you stated, is
> >>>>>>> that in steel or in alluminum?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I discussed the issue of welding on a plate and and he did not
> >>>>>>> think that was necessary, there also could be a weakening of the
> >>>>>>> original material at the intersection of the new plate and the
> >>>>>>> horn.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Just for discussion, (If I could not sleep because of this) he
> >>>>>>> discussed an alternate remedy, riveting another plate of
> >>>>>>> similair material(4130 steel) with say 6 rivets using the same
> >>>>>>> hole, just to extend the gap between the hole edge and the
> >>>>>>> bottom edge of the horn.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As I have stated, I have 6/32 of material on the bottom edge
> >>>>>>> from hole edge to horn bottom edge, and when this is all torqued
> >>>>>>> down with washers pinching this together I wonder how exposed to
> >>>>>>> stresses this 6/32" of material will be. still need to review
> >>>>>>> the connection, but alteast there are a couple of alternative
> >>>>>>> remedies other than rework
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> JOhn G. 409
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>4:51 PM
>
>
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
=0A=0A>As a result of so many other aircraft having problems with the
plastic=0A>lines provided, I am following the path to safety of the pla
stic=0A>aircraft builders and choosing the prudent course. Non-plastic.
=0A=0AJohn,=0A=0ACan you cite these many aircraft with problem
s, or specifically, a problem with the Van's design? =0A=0A>Is seems
easier to learn from the practices of those with real =0A>field experie
nce than trust an untrained path of technical help =0A>that they might b
e okay.. but try them anyway. =0A=0ASeems you have confirmed why one
should stick to the plans/kit configuration since Van's with 5000+ airplan
es flying has "real field experience."- How many of those "plastic" airpl
anes are flying?=0A=0A>Converting speed and momentum into a motion at
rest =0A>in a short distance and interval of time =0A>is my final go
al after a great flight. =0A=0ALet me break out my Rosetta stone.
=0A=0ACaveman:"Uhh, what!?" =0A=0ADo not archive.=0A=0AWilli
am=0Ahttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ =0A=0A----------------------------
=0A=0AAs a result of so many other aircraft having problems with the pla
stic=0Alines provided, I am following the path to safety of the plastic
=0Aaircraft builders and choosing the prudent course. Non-plastic.=0A
=0AIs seems easier to learn from the practices of those with real field
=0Aexperience than trust an untrained path of technical help that they
=0Amight be okay.. but try them anyway. Converting speed and momentum in
to=0Aa motion at rest in a short distance and interval of time is my fin
al=0Agoal after a great flight.=0A=0AJohn Cox=0A#40600=0A
=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.c
om=0A[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
=0ASent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:07 AM=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com
=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?=0A=0A-
the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you=0Astated.
I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3=0Abrake
lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind=0Ato
me to do this upgrade.=0A=0Ago to www.anplumbing.com=0A=0Atype
this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take=0Ayou
to the page for these lines. "63010112"=0A=0AAfter making up my fuel
lines, buying the brake lines already assembled=0Amakes my finger tips
=================0A=0A
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got very
large and I was thinking that we could put another group buy at a later date.
These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up working on this
part earlier than I had anticipated. Being a bit early for another group buy
I brute forced it and got another solution.
I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a 3/4 inch
diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt. I have attached a few pictures for those
interested in trying the same modification.
I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.
Niko
40188
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
Dan,
John frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van's
kits...but Lancairs. It was a recent topic of discussion along with
some alternatives. It did get me thinking about it and at one point
I was going to rework my lines. I'm currently sitting on the fence
though. Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think
that the issue is very grey in that:
* Not many fail
* Yes, there are better materials to use
* Yes, it is nice that you can see when the tubes are filling with air
rather than fluid (at the end of my brake life, mine had
some air in them at the top, so my reservoir was so small
that it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid
to push the calipers out WAAAY out.
* Yes, the plastic is strong enough to do the job
* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plastic down to the
brakes. In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humble
opinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the
fuselage to the wheel. Then either teflon or aluminum
in the tunnel.
* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives
* No, nobody even mentions service life
So currently, although I would like to have a good alternative that
is easy and affordable, I'm not yet motivated enough to want to
scrap them out. The thing is, ours are protected from UV, under
the firewall, and they're so cheap that what builders SHOULD do
(that they never seem to address) is replace them on a shorter
timeframe. There's no reason, at the low cost of that poly, that
you shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them. Why stretch
it to 10 or more just because they are still working. They aren't
as good as day 1, so why try. If protect them well from heat and
chafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,
and other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to
use the plastic. But if you install them in a questionable way,
and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for
trouble. And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,
yes, there are alternative lines available that do make some sense.
I just don't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,
because there's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer
diligence. With the more expensive lines, you'd still need to
do a good install if you want to expect them to be "permanent"
and give good service.
That's just my 3 cents. As I inspect them and find anything
questionable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them
for plastic, or look for good alternatives at that time.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
>
> So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying RV's
> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
> as you imply.
> Dan
> N289DT
Message 10
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| Subject: | elevator control horn drilling, spell checked version |
Right.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
version
The weldments don't effect the way the elevators hang, it is only when you
tie the two elevators together that it makes things possibly out of
alignment.
Thats why the descrepency is either due to the a twist in the elevator
spar(s), twist in the HS or when you join the two horns together to make
them as one.
John G.
Do not archive
>From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@saintaviation.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
>version
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:23:54 -0400
>
>
>I have seen a little variation in this and I can't explain it. For looks,
>having the counterbalance arms both lined up with the horizontal is more
>important, For performance, probably having them somewhere in the middle
>of
>any variation would give you the best performance. With the rudder on, you
>cannot see from one elevator to the other, so performance is the only issue
>if they are not perfect. The weldments definitely do vary a fair bit, but
>this is not seen and the plans have instructions for handling any
>variation.
>
>Jesse Saint
>Saint Aviation, Inc.
>jesse@saintaviation.com
>www.saintaviation.com
>Cell: 352-427-0285
>Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MauleDriver
>Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:35 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
>version
>
>
>Hmmm. I will check it with a string (perhaps there's a laser in there
>somewhere). Eyeballing it seems pretty clear but I'm all learning curve
>at this point. It should all line up (weldments excepted).
>
>Thanks for the extra plate.
>
>Bill "Fix the elevator horn" Watson
>'605
>
>John Gonzalez wrote:
><indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I would not be so sure your trailing edges are perfectly aligned if
> > the counterbalance arms are off.
> >
> > I would lock up the counterbalance arms, truing them to the ends of
> > the HS and then pull a string line between the trailing edges of the
> > two elevators. When you think about it, because everything was
> > designed by computer and fabricated by machine the only way I can
> > figure it would be out of wack was if there is a twist in the elevator
> > spars, which is very possible.
> >
> > I think more likely there was an issue with the drilling of the second
> > horn, my drilling block was made by using a shopsmith in drill press
> > mode and the drill bit creeps and the table was not perfectly true in
> > all directions. Hence, I since purchased a very nice drill press.
> >
> > My feeling, see what the string line shows, but I trued the
> > counterbalance arms based on my thoughts spelled out above. oh, I also
> > had the hole distance issue on the second horn.
> >
> > JOhn G.
> >
> >
> >> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
> >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling, spell checked
> >> version
> >> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:40:22 -0400
> >>
> >>
> >> Very much appreciated John!
> >>
> >> Like others, my counterbalances are not perfectly aligned when the
> >> trailing edges are aligned, but oh well.
> >>
> >> Bill "Empennage complete except for ##@% elevator horn, starting QB
> >> wings" Watson
> >> 40605
> >>
> >> John Gonzalez wrote:
> >>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >>>
> >>> I used six 470-4 of the correct length. Daniel Lloyd might be
> >>> willing to send on an extra 4130 steel plate I fabricated after he
> >>> takes his from the two I sent him.
> >>>
> >>> Again, I'll try to explain the basics:
> >>>
> >>> 1) Chose the best hole: usually the one you drilled first.
> >>> 2) Line up you counterbalance arms with the end of the HS. Lock them
> >>> down with clamps, not just Duct tape.
> >>> 3) put your fabricated indexing block that you drilled(Make sure
> >>> this is perfectly 90 degrees in all directions, in other words not
> >>> the cause of the original problem) with a drill press between the
> >>> two horns.
> >>> 4) Put your drill bit or bolt through the correct hole and through
> >>> the block and see where the second hole is out of alignment.
> >>> 5) slightly enlarge the second hole only where needed.
> >>> 6) Temporarily put the plate you get from Daniel on the outside of
> >>> the elevator horn (the one with the slightly enlarged hole) and mark
> >>> the hole location on the 4130 steel plate.
> >>> 7) Remove the plate and Drill the plate to the correct hole size.
> >>> 8) With the plate off, Drill the plate undersize, say #40 for the
> >>> six rivets where the meat of the horn and the plate is thickest(Away
> >>> from the lightening holes)
> >>> 9) put the plate back on the elevator horn with the nut going
> >>> through both horns and the center drilling block and lock both
> >>> together with c clamps.
> >>> 10) with everything locked down perfectly true(Counterbalance arms,
> >>> etc) thru drill as many of the #40 holes as possible from the plate
> >>> into the elevator horn to size #30. cleco as you go.
> >>> 11) Now that the everything has been indexed while everything is
> >>> locked tight, you can always drill the last remaining hole(s) you
> >>> can't get to by removing the elevator.
> >>> 12) Prime and paint your plate...I used Tempo primer and Tempo
> >>> Propeller paint out the the can.
> >>> 13) Rivet you plate on.
> >>> 14) No reason the six rivets should fail(remember the horns are
> >>> riveted to the ribs and those don't fail), but even if they did the
> >>> original hole is still there in the elevator horn and it is only
> >>> slightly enlarged...you should be able to land and you might not
> >>> even experience any flutter...basically you might not even know.
> >>> 15) I liked this fix better than welding the plate because the welds
> >>> screw up the powder coat and the heat might weaken the part. Welding
> >>> the hole closed and re-drilling...don't like re-drilling into non
> >>> original material.
> >>>
> >>> 15 points that might help, but promise me you will not vote for me
> >>> for anything except President.
> >>> Got to finish this plane before I announce my candacy.
> >>>
> >>> John G.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
> >>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
> >>>> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:29:27 -0400
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> John, looks like I'm going down a route similar to yours. Thanks
> >>>> for the pics. What rivets did you use?
> >>>>
> >>>> John Gonzalez wrote:
> >>>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I had the additional requirement of needing to align my counter
> >>>>> balance arms, my horn hole was slightly less than 90 degrees itrue
> >>>>> in all dimensions. I ended doing the plate and riveting it on to
> >>>>> the horn.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I"ll send picture tomorrow if you are interested.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> JOhn G.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
> >>>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
> >>>>>> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:25:58 -0500
> >>>>>>
><MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John (or anyone), what was Vans final advice regarding this
> >>>>>> situation? I may be facing a similar situation with reduced
> >>>>>> material between the hole and the end of the horn.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've searched the forum but can't find additional references.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>> do not archive
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John Gonzalez wrote:
> >>>>>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Richard,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I just got off the phone with Van's and asked them to have the
> >>>>>>> powers that be review the building manual and make a comment
> >>>>>>> about being careful to respect the up/down dimension of where
> >>>>>>> the drill will exit out of the second hole on the second horn.
> >>>>>>> Not jus tbe concerned about the most aft horn being the
> >>>>>>> designated guide.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I wanted to ask you the minimum edge distance as you stated, is
> >>>>>>> that in steel or in alluminum?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I discussed the issue of welding on a plate and and he did not
> >>>>>>> think that was necessary, there also could be a weakening of the
> >>>>>>> original material at the intersection of the new plate and the
> >>>>>>> horn.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Just for discussion, (If I could not sleep because of this) he
> >>>>>>> discussed an alternate remedy, riveting another plate of
> >>>>>>> similair material(4130 steel) with say 6 rivets using the same
> >>>>>>> hole, just to extend the gap between the hole edge and the
> >>>>>>> bottom edge of the horn.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As I have stated, I have 6/32 of material on the bottom edge
> >>>>>>> from hole edge to horn bottom edge, and when this is all torqued
> >>>>>>> down with washers pinching this together I wonder how exposed to
> >>>>>>> stresses this 6/32" of material will be. still need to review
> >>>>>>> the connection, but alteast there are a couple of alternative
> >>>>>>> remedies other than rework
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> JOhn G. 409
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>4:51 PM
>
>
--
11:27 AM
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
Tim will tell you, I'll bet that even the AN6 bolt will shear.
The vibration and the fulcrum point of the edge of the hex extension on the
vertical face of the axle mount, cycled thousands and thousands of time will
snap that bolt.
I like to think of this design as the way early dental implants were
designed. The screws used to snap of inside the implant or bend before
snapping.
This is why I love to understand the physics in everything including
dentistry.
John G
Do not archive
>From: Niko <owl40188@yahoo.com>
>To: Matronics <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:35:45 -0700 (PDT)
>
>When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got
>very large and I was thinking that we could put another group buy at a
>later date. These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up
>working on this part earlier than I had anticipated. Being a bit early for
>another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.
>
>I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a 3/4
>inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt. I have attached a few pictures
>for those interested in trying the same modification.
>
>I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.
>
>Niko
>40188
><< AxleExtensionSml1.jpg >>
><< AxleExtensionSml2.jpg >>
><< AxleExtension3Sml.jpg >>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
Looks like a good option also. Thanks for the pics.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:36 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got
very large and I was thinking that we could put another group buy at a
later date. These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up
working on this part earlier than I had anticipated. Being a bit early for
another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.
I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a 3/4
inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt. I have attached a few pictures
for those interested in trying the same modification.
I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.
Niko
40188
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
I am not sure why you are saying this John. An AN6 bolt, has a tensile strength
of 10100lb where as an AN4 bolt has a tensile strength of 4000lb. Additionally
the larger hex extension reduces the load on the bolt. I haven't done any
analysis on this particular design so I can't tell you for sure if the original
design was grossly undersized, however, being that not everyone is having
problems I would think that Vans design is not that far off. And this design
would have less than a third of the stress in the bolt that Vans design has.
I guess time will tell.
One item that might be coming into play is the torque values. If one under torques
a bolt its fatigue life may be reduced drastically. Thats because the bolt
typically sees only a fraction of the applied load as the rest is going to
relieve some of the preload in the joint. If the applied load is higher than
the preload due to torque the joint will open up and drastically reduce the life
of the bolt. Yes, this does mean the higher the torque the better up to
the point where significant deformation of the threads occurs. Although this
is just a guess it could very well be that the people having problems with Vans
design at this location have not applied enough torque. I do realize that the
bolt is being threaded into aluminum and one has to be more carefull
Thousands of cycles by themselves are not a problem. In fact even aluminum (2024)
can take more than 100 million cycles if you keep the peak stress below 10
ksi.
Niko
40188
----- Original Message ----
From: John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:18:18 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
Tim will tell you, I'll bet that even the AN6 bolt will shear.
The vibration and the fulcrum point of the edge of the hex extension on the
vertical face of the axle mount, cycled thousands and thousands of time will
snap that bolt.
I like to think of this design as the way early dental implants were
designed. The screws used to snap of inside the implant or bend before
snapping.
This is why I love to understand the physics in everything including
dentistry.
John G
Do not archive
>From: Niko <owl40188@yahoo.com>
>To: Matronics <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:35:45 -0700 (PDT)
>
>When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got
>very large and I was thinking that we could put another group buy at a
>later date. These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up
>working on this part earlier than I had anticipated. Being a bit early for
>another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.
>
>I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a 3/4
>inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt. I have attached a few pictures
>for those interested in trying the same modification.
>
>I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.
>
>Niko
>40188
><< AxleExtensionSml1.jpg >>
><< AxleExtensionSml2.jpg >>
><< AxleExtension3Sml.jpg >>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
And my point still stands regardless of what list he is referring too,
there are many more RV's flying than Lancairs, and this equals tried and
true in the field testing. If this was an issue it would have been
addressed. I am not saying there is not a better, more expensive way to
do it. Heck, even I bought Kevlar break lines for my motorcycle because
they looked cool, and maybe even gave me 15-20 pounds of additional
stopping force, but that was my choice not Honda's, and I would not say
as a manufacturer they did any thing wrong in providing the type they
did. As such, I do not think there is an issue with the lines, and the
install instructions that Vans puts out, as long as they are followed.
My discussion point was that John was making a sky is falling type
comment that if you do not upgrade your brake lines the originals will
not cut it and that is just not true, rather it is just the opposite, as
has been proven by a large fleet of airplanes. While a Lancair is a
great plane, there are not as many in their fleet so I would question
the number of issues that are in fact happening.
It is the same thing that happens here, one of us mention an issue and
several months later it is widely touted as being more widespread than
actual. So I am just trying to set the record straight that there is not
an issue with the break lines, rather you can spend money upgrading the
lines if you want to. Just like any other part of this plane, there are
plenty of people out there willing to take your money for something that
may or may not add additional benefit.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
Dan,
John frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van's
kits...but Lancairs. It was a recent topic of discussion along with
some alternatives. It did get me thinking about it and at one point
I was going to rework my lines. I'm currently sitting on the fence
though. Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think
that the issue is very grey in that:
* Not many fail
* Yes, there are better materials to use
* Yes, it is nice that you can see when the tubes are filling with air
rather than fluid (at the end of my brake life, mine had
some air in them at the top, so my reservoir was so small
that it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid
to push the calipers out WAAAY out.
* Yes, the plastic is strong enough to do the job
* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plastic down to the
brakes. In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humble
opinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the
fuselage to the wheel. Then either teflon or aluminum
in the tunnel.
* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives
* No, nobody even mentions service life
So currently, although I would like to have a good alternative that
is easy and affordable, I'm not yet motivated enough to want to
scrap them out. The thing is, ours are protected from UV, under
the firewall, and they're so cheap that what builders SHOULD do
(that they never seem to address) is replace them on a shorter
timeframe. There's no reason, at the low cost of that poly, that
you shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them. Why stretch
it to 10 or more just because they are still working. They aren't
as good as day 1, so why try. If protect them well from heat and
chafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,
and other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to
use the plastic. But if you install them in a questionable way,
and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for
trouble. And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,
yes, there are alternative lines available that do make some sense.
I just don't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,
because there's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer
diligence. With the more expensive lines, you'd still need to
do a good install if you want to expect them to be "permanent"
and give good service.
That's just my 3 cents. As I inspect them and find anything
questionable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them
for plastic, or look for good alternatives at that time.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying
RV's
> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
> as you imply.
> Dan
> N289DT
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
First let me state I am not trying to be a know it all or a smart ass. Nor
am I clairvoyant.
Think about how those rocks were moved to build the pyramids. Think about
how after a tornado or hurricane they find a plastic straw embedded in a
telephone pole. How about how a 110 pound Japanese Aikido practitioner can
bring down a 350 pound muscle man with the greatest of ease.
What the hell am I talking about?
Brute force, or as you state, the thickest of metal, not designed well, will
shatter. The problem is that you need to think of the hex extension as a
lever. The fulcrum point is the edge of the hex where it touches the flat
face of the axle adapter. The other lever arm is the distance between the
bolt and the outside edge of the hex extension(in other wards, the distance
between the fulcrum point back to the bolt.) Think of this also in 360
degrees(this is realy bad)
Now you will true your fairing as best you can so it flies cleanly through
the air, but these reciprocating engines, even the Eggenfellner, will cause
a vibration. Translate that vibration on to the wheel fairing and you will
get a harmonic cycle acting on that long lever arm(The hex extension). The
longer the hex extension the worse the problem. The more mass at the end of
that extension, the worse the problem. The more vibration, worse yet.
Millions of cycles possibly over a single flight. In my opinion, that bolt
doesn't stand a chance. No matter how you torque it.
Here is a little better way. Tim's design for one. After that, where the hex
extension meets the axle adapter, you need a female receptor lathed into the
axle adapter. It needs to have a Morse Taper. The Hex extension needs to
have a corresponding Male, Morse taper. The bolt, properly torqued will
transfer the load to the two tapers and relieve the lateral forces which the
bolt's shaft is subjected to. The bolt will now only serve to hold the two
pieces together. The machining needs to be really clean with no internal
blips or hangups, otherwise these will act as fulcrum points.
Damm, you all better hope that my schedule starts getting busy again,
otherwise I'll drive you crazy.
John G. #409
Do archive this. I think this is an appropriate time for a Yoda qoute.
Suggestions?
Wagers anyone????
>From: Niko <owl40188@yahoo.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:43:08 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I am not sure why you are saying this John. An AN6 bolt, has a tensile
>strength of 10100lb where as an AN4 bolt has a tensile strength of 4000lb.
>Additionally the larger hex extension reduces the load on the bolt. I
>haven't done any analysis on this particular design so I can't tell you for
>sure if the original design was grossly undersized, however, being that
>not everyone is having problems I would think that Vans design is not that
>far off. And this design would have less than a third of the stress in the
>bolt that Vans design has. I guess time will tell.
>
> One item that might be coming into play is the torque values. If one
>under torques a bolt its fatigue life may be reduced drastically. Thats
>because the bolt typically sees only a fraction of the applied load as the
>rest is going to relieve some of the preload in the joint. If the applied
>load is higher than the preload due to torque the joint will open up and
>drastically reduce the life of the bolt. Yes, this does mean the higher
>the torque the better up to the point where significant deformation of the
>threads occurs. Although this is just a guess it could very well be that
>the people having problems with Vans design at this location have not
>applied enough torque. I do realize that the bolt is being threaded into
>aluminum and one has to be more carefull
>
> Thousands of cycles by themselves are not a problem. In fact even
>aluminum (2024) can take more than 100 million cycles if you keep the peak
>stress below 10 ksi.
>
>
>Niko
>40188
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:18:18 AM
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>
>
>
>Tim will tell you, I'll bet that even the AN6 bolt will shear.
>
>The vibration and the fulcrum point of the edge of the hex extension on the
>vertical face of the axle mount, cycled thousands and thousands of time
>will
>snap that bolt.
>
>I like to think of this design as the way early dental implants were
>designed. The screws used to snap of inside the implant or bend before
>snapping.
>
>This is why I love to understand the physics in everything including
>dentistry.
>
>John G
>
>Do not archive
>
>
> >From: Niko <owl40188@yahoo.com>
> >To: Matronics <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
> >Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:35:45 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got
> >very large and I was thinking that we could put another group buy at a
> >later date. These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up
> >working on this part earlier than I had anticipated. Being a bit early
>for
> >another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.
> >
> >I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a
>3/4
> >inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt. I have attached a few
>pictures
> >for those interested in trying the same modification.
> >
> >I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.
> >
> >Niko
> >40188
>
>
> ><< AxleExtensionSml1.jpg >>
>
>
> ><< AxleExtensionSml2.jpg >>
>
>
> ><< AxleExtension3Sml.jpg >>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
To reinforce Tim's comments - I used to follow the Lancair mail lists
daily (before I got some learnin') and the issue of plastic brake lines
is a frequently discussed item there. Apparently they run the plastic
lines all the way to the calipers and there have been at least a couple
of fires as a result of brakes heating up. Since it may be sometime in
2019 before John actually gets to that point in his kit, it's possible
that he didn't know that the RVs have aluminum lines except for the
reservoir plumbing. Of course, he knows now...
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
And my point still stands regardless of what list he is referring too,
there are many more RV's flying than Lancairs, and this equals tried and
true in the field testing. If this was an issue it would have been
addressed. I am not saying there is not a better, more expensive way to
do it. Heck, even I bought Kevlar break lines for my motorcycle because
they looked cool, and maybe even gave me 15-20 pounds of additional
stopping force, but that was my choice not Honda's, and I would not say
as a manufacturer they did any thing wrong in providing the type they
did. As such, I do not think there is an issue with the lines, and the
install instructions that Vans puts out, as long as they are followed.
My discussion point was that John was making a sky is falling type
comment that if you do not upgrade your brake lines the originals will
not cut it and that is just not true, rather it is just the opposite, as
has been proven by a large fleet of airplanes. While a Lancair is a
great plane, there are not as many in their fleet so I would question
the number of issues that are in fact happening.
It is the same thing that happens here, one of us mention an issue and
several months later it is widely touted as being more widespread than
actual. So I am just trying to set the record straight that there is not
an issue with the break lines, rather you can spend money upgrading the
lines if you want to. Just like any other part of this plane, there are
plenty of people out there willing to take your money for something that
may or may not add additional benefit.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
Dan,
John frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van's
kits...but Lancairs. It was a recent topic of discussion along with
some alternatives. It did get me thinking about it and at one point
I was going to rework my lines. I'm currently sitting on the fence
though. Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think
that the issue is very grey in that:
* Not many fail
* Yes, there are better materials to use
* Yes, it is nice that you can see when the tubes are filling with air
rather than fluid (at the end of my brake life, mine had
some air in them at the top, so my reservoir was so small
that it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid
to push the calipers out WAAAY out.
* Yes, the plastic is strong enough to do the job
* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plastic down to the
brakes. In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humble
opinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the
fuselage to the wheel. Then either teflon or aluminum
in the tunnel.
* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives
* No, nobody even mentions service life
So currently, although I would like to have a good alternative that
is easy and affordable, I'm not yet motivated enough to want to
scrap them out. The thing is, ours are protected from UV, under
the firewall, and they're so cheap that what builders SHOULD do
(that they never seem to address) is replace them on a shorter
timeframe. There's no reason, at the low cost of that poly, that
you shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them. Why stretch
it to 10 or more just because they are still working. They aren't
as good as day 1, so why try. If protect them well from heat and
chafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,
and other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to
use the plastic. But if you install them in a questionable way,
and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for
trouble. And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,
yes, there are alternative lines available that do make some sense.
I just don't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,
because there's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer
diligence. With the more expensive lines, you'd still need to
do a good install if you want to expect them to be "permanent"
and give good service.
That's just my 3 cents. As I inspect them and find anything
questionable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them
for plastic, or look for good alternatives at that time.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying
RV's
> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
> as you imply.
> Dan
> N289DT
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
In the time it took to type that response you could have mounted the delron blocks
into the door pockets.
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
>
> Do archive this. I think this is an appropriate time for a Yoda
> qoute. Suggestions?
>
"This is not the axle extension you are looking for..."
;-)
-Dj
do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
Personally, I think that what Niko did is going to work great. The
old one had it's weaknesses, and any enlargement or improvement
will help a great deal and likely make it a non-issue. He's going
with a huge bolt, but not quite as much base on the stem, but
relative to what was kit-supplied, he's quite a bit better. The
hex bar may make it easier to rock in one specific direction,
whereas a rounded piece would be like having that width
throughout an infinite number of corners like on the hex. (hard
to explain that one...but I'm basically saying that he's only got
that huge OD on the corners, and it's lesser on the flats)
So, in the end, I don't see that it'll be a big problem if the
originals worked OK for some people for a while. It may
not be quite as strong, or maybe with the larger bolt he may
be as strong. Either way, he's well over what it originally
was so I sure wouldn't lose any sleep over it at this point.
I do agree with you though John, that the fulcrum point is not only
closer to the bolt, but with the flats it can be even more
close than at the hex corners. Is it a big deal? as long a
the piece has some huge-ness, it will help. On those that we
had made, I just went for the widest base, with a thin enough tip
so that it would easily retrofit and work for anyone....and taper
to save weight.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Niko wrote:
> I am not sure why you are saying this John. An AN6 bolt, has a tensile
> strength of 10100lb where as an AN4 bolt has a tensile strength of
> 4000lb. Additionally the larger hex extension reduces the load on the
> bolt. I haven't done any analysis on this particular design so I can't
> tell you for sure if the original design was grossly undersized,
> however, being that not everyone is having problems I would think that
> Vans design is not that far off. And this design would have less than a
> third of the stress in the bolt that Vans design has. I guess time will
> tell.
>
> One item that might be coming into play is the torque values. If one
> under torques a bolt its fatigue life may be reduced drastically. Thats
> because the bolt typically sees only a fraction of the applied load as
> the rest is going to relieve some of the preload in the joint. If the
> applied load is higher than the preload due to torque the joint will
> open up and drastically reduce the life of the bolt. Yes, this does
> mean the higher the torque the better up to the point where significant
> deformation of the threads occurs. Although this is just a guess it
> could very well be that the people having problems with Vans design at
> this location have not applied enough torque. I do realize that the
> bolt is being threaded into aluminum and one has to be more carefull
>
> Thousands of cycles by themselves are not a problem. In fact even
> aluminum (2024) can take more than 100 million cycles if you keep the
> peak stress below 10 ksi.
>
>
> Niko
> 40188
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:18:18 AM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>
>
> Tim will tell you, I'll bet that even the AN6 bolt will shear.
>
> The vibration and the fulcrum point of the edge of the hex extension on the
> vertical face of the axle mount, cycled thousands and thousands of time
> will
> snap that bolt.
>
> I like to think of this design as the way early dental implants were
> designed. The screws used to snap of inside the implant or bend before
> snapping.
>
> This is why I love to understand the physics in everything including
> dentistry.
>
> John G
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> >From: Niko <owl40188@yahoo.com>
> >To: Matronics <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
> >Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:35:45 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got
> >very large and I was thinking that we could put another group buy at a
> >later date. These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up
> >working on this part earlier than I had anticipated. Being a bit
> early for
> >another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.
> >
> >I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with
> a 3/4
> >inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt. I have attached a few
> pictures
> >for those interested in trying the same modification.
> >
> >I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.
> >
> >Niko
> >40188
>
>
> ><< AxleExtensionSml1.jpg >>
>
>
> ><< AxleExtensionSml2.jpg >>
>
>
> ><< AxleExtension3Sml.jpg
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 20
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
And I could see this being a problem down low on the gear leg,
especially since they stall about 15% higher speed than a 10 and have to
dissipate that much more energy as heat.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob
(US SSA)
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:18 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
To reinforce Tim's comments - I used to follow the Lancair mail lists
daily (before I got some learnin') and the issue of plastic brake lines
is a frequently discussed item there. Apparently they run the plastic
lines all the way to the calipers and there have been at least a couple
of fires as a result of brakes heating up. Since it may be sometime in
2019 before John actually gets to that point in his kit, it's possible
that he didn't know that the RVs have aluminum lines except for the
reservoir plumbing. Of course, he knows now...
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
And my point still stands regardless of what list he is referring too,
there are many more RV's flying than Lancairs, and this equals tried and
true in the field testing. If this was an issue it would have been
addressed. I am not saying there is not a better, more expensive way to
do it. Heck, even I bought Kevlar break lines for my motorcycle because
they looked cool, and maybe even gave me 15-20 pounds of additional
stopping force, but that was my choice not Honda's, and I would not say
as a manufacturer they did any thing wrong in providing the type they
did. As such, I do not think there is an issue with the lines, and the
install instructions that Vans puts out, as long as they are followed.
My discussion point was that John was making a sky is falling type
comment that if you do not upgrade your brake lines the originals will
not cut it and that is just not true, rather it is just the opposite, as
has been proven by a large fleet of airplanes. While a Lancair is a
great plane, there are not as many in their fleet so I would question
the number of issues that are in fact happening.
It is the same thing that happens here, one of us mention an issue and
several months later it is widely touted as being more widespread than
actual. So I am just trying to set the record straight that there is not
an issue with the break lines, rather you can spend money upgrading the
lines if you want to. Just like any other part of this plane, there are
plenty of people out there willing to take your money for something that
may or may not add additional benefit.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
Dan,
John frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van's
kits...but Lancairs. It was a recent topic of discussion along with
some alternatives. It did get me thinking about it and at one point
I was going to rework my lines. I'm currently sitting on the fence
though. Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think
that the issue is very grey in that:
* Not many fail
* Yes, there are better materials to use
* Yes, it is nice that you can see when the tubes are filling with air
rather than fluid (at the end of my brake life, mine had
some air in them at the top, so my reservoir was so small
that it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid
to push the calipers out WAAAY out.
* Yes, the plastic is strong enough to do the job
* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plastic down to the
brakes. In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humble
opinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the
fuselage to the wheel. Then either teflon or aluminum
in the tunnel.
* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives
* No, nobody even mentions service life
So currently, although I would like to have a good alternative that
is easy and affordable, I'm not yet motivated enough to want to
scrap them out. The thing is, ours are protected from UV, under
the firewall, and they're so cheap that what builders SHOULD do
(that they never seem to address) is replace them on a shorter
timeframe. There's no reason, at the low cost of that poly, that
you shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them. Why stretch
it to 10 or more just because they are still working. They aren't
as good as day 1, so why try. If protect them well from heat and
chafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,
and other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to
use the plastic. But if you install them in a questionable way,
and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for
trouble. And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,
yes, there are alternative lines available that do make some sense.
I just don't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,
because there's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer
diligence. With the more expensive lines, you'd still need to
do a good install if you want to expect them to be "permanent"
and give good service.
That's just my 3 cents. As I inspect them and find anything
questionable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them
for plastic, or look for good alternatives at that time.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying
RV's
> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
> as you imply.
> Dan
> N289DT
Message 21
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Further to the archived info on nose wheel valve stem clearance and the
different wheel you can use, have the flying tens had any further issues
with the turning of the axle spacers and axle?
Using the stock parts as supplied by Vans, including the original
stainless spacers, my wheel won't turn by hand at all. Correct torque
applied. Also, I noticed Vans still say it's o.k to use either of their
spacer designs although they are shipping the alloy version with their
later kits. Given that Tims fix is well documented on his site, how have
other builders addressed this?
John 40315 (finishing misnomers)
Message 22
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I still haven't gotten around to replacing my parts, but right now
they're keyed so they can't spin. I would absolutely 100%
without a doubt, with zero reservations say that people should
not use the stainless ones unless they both protect their forks,
and prevent them from spinning. You will *think* that all
will be well, because upon first assembly it all just seems
ok. But, with those stainless parts you will eventually have
a problem and when you do, you'll wreck your fork like I did.
That's the single worst flaw I've had to deal with in the 200
hours I've flown. Having not installed the new parts yet,
I can't say that they'll be better, but they sure as heck can't
be worse....so I'd use the new ones.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Dunne wrote:
> Further to the archived info on nose wheel valve stem clearance and the
> different wheel you can use, have the flying tens had any further issues
> with the turning of the axle spacers and axle?
> Using the stock parts as supplied by Vans, including the original
> stainless spacers, my wheel won't turn by hand at all. Correct torque
> applied. Also, I noticed Vans still say it's o.k to use either of their
> spacer designs although they are shipping the alloy version with their
> later kits. Given that Tims fix is well documented on his site, how have
> other builders addressed this?
>
> John 40315 (finishing misnomers)
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
Unfortunately I work far away from my plane and when I am not working with
my hands in my job, I often waist time.
Hoping you all don't all feel it was a waist of my time writing it or yours
reading it.
I still counter, hugeness only goes so far. I will hope it lasts until the
time Tim offers another order.
Did anyone visit the GE 1.5MW fan site? Please don't say a waist of time.
Send patients so I shut up.
John G. Do not archive
>From: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:27:13 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>In the time it took to type that response you could have mounted the delron
>blocks into the door pockets.
>
>Rick S.
>40185
>
>do not archive
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
John,
Keep them posts coming!!!
I went to the GE site.....I thought it sucked wind!! :)
Now for a good olympic event we could have a mass parachute drop into that area
and see who makes the best spot landings...
Sorry CJ!!
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
"I still counter, hugeness only goes so far."
So are you saying that size matters or doesn't matter? Or maybe big is good but
ya gotta kiss her too?
"Did anyone visit the GE 1.5MW fan site? Please don't say a waist of time".
I agree...not taking advantage of free air is a big "WAIST" which goes back to
that hugeness you keep referring too!!
:) Quitting time for me must be getting punchy...time to go sand, again, and again.
All in fun Doc!!
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: six dimples molded into door shells not there? |
I had a similar problem; I was missing a couple of dimples. I just
lined up what I had and made sure the doors were together firmly and it
turned out ok.
PJ
RV-10 #40032
Chris Johnston wrote:
> hey all -
>
> i know, i know... i just ask question after question, all seemingly unrelated...
i'm skipping around a bunch, but i promise, it all makes sense! here's
the question of the evening - i'm looking at my left outer door shell, and i'm
missing the upper right corner window dimple, and the aft edge dimple, and in
the right outer door shell, i'm missing one of the window dimples. anyone else
have this problem? any ideas? this fiberglass stuff is a little frustrating!
>
> cj
> #40410
> wings/fuse/finishing!
> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
RV6 VH-MUM 500++ hours plastic lines and loving them. No need to waist money
here. Just install like the plans say.
chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:26 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
>
> So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying RV's
> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
> as you imply.
> Dan
> N289DT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:03 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
>
>
> As a result of so many other aircraft having problems with the plastic
> lines provided, I am following the path to safety of the plastic
> aircraft builders and choosing the prudent course. Non-plastic.
>
> Is seems easier to learn from the practices of those with real field
> experience than trust an untrained path of technical help that they
> might be okay.. but try them anyway. Converting speed and momentum into
> a motion at rest in a short distance and interval of time is my final
> goal after a great flight.
>
> John Cox
> #40600
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:07 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you
> stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3
> brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind
> to me to do this upgrade.
>
> go to www.anplumbing.com
>
> type this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take
> you to the page for these lines. "63010112"
>
>
> After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled
> makes my finger tips happy!!
>
> Rick S.
> 40185
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
Ah, but if you do not view the problem directly it is both there and not there
at the same time.
Sorry, couldn't help it. :-D As Dan says, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Anyone actually look at what the burst pressure is of that line and what the
maximum pressure of the cylinders are?
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
And my point still stands regardless of what list he is referring too,
there are many more RV's flying than Lancairs, and this equals tried and
true in the field testing. If this was an issue it would have been
addressed. I am not saying there is not a better, more expensive way to
do it. Heck, even I bought Kevlar break lines for my motorcycle because
they looked cool, and maybe even gave me 15-20 pounds of additional
stopping force, but that was my choice not Honda's, and I would not say
as a manufacturer they did any thing wrong in providing the type they
did. As such, I do not think there is an issue with the lines, and the
install instructions that Vans puts out, as long as they are followed.
My discussion point was that John was making a sky is falling type
comment that if you do not upgrade your brake lines the originals will
not cut it and that is just not true, rather it is just the opposite, as
has been proven by a large fleet of airplanes. While a Lancair is a
great plane, there are not as many in their fleet so I would question
the number of issues that are in fact happening.
It is the same thing that happens here, one of us mention an issue and
several months later it is widely touted as being more widespread than
actual. So I am just trying to set the record straight that there is not
an issue with the break lines, rather you can spend money upgrading the
lines if you want to. Just like any other part of this plane, there are
plenty of people out there willing to take your money for something that
may or may not add additional benefit.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
Dan,
John frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van's
kits...but Lancairs. It was a recent topic of discussion along with
some alternatives. It did get me thinking about it and at one point
I was going to rework my lines. I'm currently sitting on the fence
though. Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think
that the issue is very grey in that:
* Not many fail
* Yes, there are better materials to use
* Yes, it is nice that you can see when the tubes are filling with air
rather than fluid (at the end of my brake life, mine had
some air in them at the top, so my reservoir was so small
that it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid
to push the calipers out WAAAY out.
* Yes, the plastic is strong enough to do the job
* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plastic down to the
brakes. In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humble
opinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the
fuselage to the wheel. Then either teflon or aluminum
in the tunnel.
* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives
* No, nobody even mentions service life
So currently, although I would like to have a good alternative that
is easy and affordable, I'm not yet motivated enough to want to
scrap them out. The thing is, ours are protected from UV, under
the firewall, and they're so cheap that what builders SHOULD do
(that they never seem to address) is replace them on a shorter
timeframe. There's no reason, at the low cost of that poly, that
you shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them. Why stretch
it to 10 or more just because they are still working. They aren't
as good as day 1, so why try. If protect them well from heat and
chafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,
and other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to
use the plastic. But if you install them in a questionable way,
and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for
trouble. And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,
yes, there are alternative lines available that do make some sense.
I just don't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,
because there's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer
diligence. With the more expensive lines, you'd still need to
do a good install if you want to expect them to be "permanent"
and give good service.
That's just my 3 cents. As I inspect them and find anything
questionable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them
for plastic, or look for good alternatives at that time.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying
RV's
> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
> as you imply.
> Dan
> N289DT
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
Okay Rick,
Well, without tools I can't lift a really fat guy off the ground. Big guys
are better on the front line for blocking and filling in open spaces. In
these cases, hugeness matters, but here is one for you...
"Size matters not, look at me. judge me by size, do you"
As Yoda lifts the RV10(X wing fighter) out of the swamp, Luke says,"I can't
believe it."
Yoda:"That is why you fail"
Basically, don't under estimate the laws of physics or the 'Force'
Remember, shear is different from tensil and compression. I think in this
case, you have all three working on that bolt.
I am leaving work and going for a run. Have fun guys, gals
Dr. G
>From: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:59:03 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>"I still counter, hugeness only goes so far."
>
>So are you saying that size matters or doesn't matter? Or maybe big is good
>but ya gotta kiss her too?
>
>"Did anyone visit the GE 1.5MW fan site? Please don't say a waist of time".
>
>I agree...not taking advantage of free air is a big "WAIST" which goes back
>to that hugeness you keep referring too!!
>
>:) Quitting time for me must be getting punchy...time to go sand, again,
>and again.
>
>All in fun Doc!!
>
>Rick S.
>40185
>
>do not archive
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method |
Well John, I don't think you are being a smart ass and you have not offended me
in any way. I am just writing this for an informational point of view as I
have gotten a lot of usefull information from this group and I am trying to give
back a little.
There is a big difference between a "poor" design and margin of safety. A poor
structural design simply means its inefficient in carrying loads it does not
mean that it will fail. The RV10s, small Cessnas, and small Pipers are filled
with design details which are considered "poor" because they are structurally
inefficient but they have adequate margins of safety and they work. They are
just heavy but they are simple cheap methods of doing a task and frankly I believe
in most cases appropriate for the aircraft they are being used in.
The current axle extension design that Van's has is not a bad design its simply
a bit undersized. It works in heel-toe action what you are calling a fulcrum.
This is not a mystical design. The load on the bolt for a given configuration
can be easily calculated and sized appropriately. By the way this same concept
is being used to carry the horizontal stabilizer vertical load at the front
spar location in the RV10. If you look at the joint closely you will notice
that the two angle fittings will have heel toe action at the base. This by
the way identical to design Piper uses on some of its aircraft and it works.
I can only surmise that its one of the many details Vans has copied from someone
else. Its not the lightest or most elegant solution but it gets the job
done, its simple and its cheap. Another example is the use of 6061 aluminum which
is considered very weak not typically not used in more advanced aircraft.
the AN3 bolts we use are also not used in more
advanced designs as they are at the low end of steels capability and there are
much stronger bolts for the same weight.
In the design change I made I increased the diameter of the hex extension by 50%
which inturn lowered the heel toe load by the same amount as the moment arm
has increased. This results in about a 30% decrease in stress in the bolt. Increasing
the diameter of the bolt increased the bolt area by 2.25 times and resulted
in a corresponding decrease in the bolt stress. If you take these two
changes together the operating stress in the new bolt is about 30% of Van's design
(70% reduction in stress.) This is not a guess or heresay, this is the
rough number using a simplistic analysis method. Since in general a 10% decrease
in stess will double the fatigue life this should result in approximately
2000 fold increase in fatigue life. You can see this from a typical steel fatigue
curve. See attached figure for 4130 steel which indicates much more than
3 orders of magnitude improvement in life for a 70% reduction in stress (red
vs blue line.) In fact it appears that for 4130 we
would be operating below its endurance limit so we would be approaching infinite
life. What I haven't considered here is the preload in the bolt which also
tilts the scale on the side of the larger bolt.
Lets conservatively say that these bolts fail in 50 hrs of flying, then a 2000
fold increase will give me a life of 100,000hrs using a scatter factor of 3 which
is typicall for aircraft I would expect at least a 33000hr life which I believe
is adequate. And there are aircraft flying with the original design with
hundereds of hours with no failures. Truth of the matter is that this design
is probably adequate with a 3/4" hex extension and only an AN5 bolt.
My conclusion is that the revised design is adequate. If someone doesn't think
so that's okay too.
Niko
40188
----- Original Message ----
From: John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:04:47 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
First let me state I am not trying to be a know it all or a smart ass. Nor
am I clairvoyant.
Think about how those rocks were moved to build the pyramids. Think about
how after a tornado or hurricane they find a plastic straw embedded in a
telephone pole. How about how a 110 pound Japanese Aikido practitioner can
bring down a 350 pound muscle man with the greatest of ease.
What the hell am I talking about?
Brute force, or as you state, the thickest of metal, not designed well, will
shatter. The problem is that you need to think of the hex extension as a
lever. The fulcrum point is the edge of the hex where it touches the flat
face of the axle adapter. The other lever arm is the distance between the
bolt and the outside edge of the hex extension(in other wards, the distance
between the fulcrum point back to the bolt.) Think of this also in 360
degrees(this is realy bad)
Now you will true your fairing as best you can so it flies cleanly through
the air, but these reciprocating engines, even the Eggenfellner, will cause
a vibration. Translate that vibration on to the wheel fairing and you will
get a harmonic cycle acting on that long lever arm(The hex extension). The
longer the hex extension the worse the problem. The more mass at the end of
that extension, the worse the problem. The more vibration, worse yet.
Millions of cycles possibly over a single flight. In my opinion, that bolt
doesn't stand a chance. No matter how you torque it.
Here is a little better way. Tim's design for one. After that, where the hex
extension meets the axle adapter, you need a female receptor lathed into the
axle adapter. It needs to have a Morse Taper. The Hex extension needs to
have a corresponding Male, Morse taper. The bolt, properly torqued will
transfer the load to the two tapers and relieve the lateral forces which the
bolt's shaft is subjected to. The bolt will now only serve to hold the two
pieces together. The machining needs to be really clean with no internal
blips or hangups, otherwise these will act as fulcrum points.
Damm, you all better hope that my schedule starts getting busy again,
otherwise I'll drive you crazy.
John G. #409
Do archive this. I think this is an appropriate time for a Yoda qoute.
Suggestions?
Wagers anyone????
>From: Niko <owl40188@yahoo.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:43:08 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I am not sure why you are saying this John. An AN6 bolt, has a tensile
>strength of 10100lb where as an AN4 bolt has a tensile strength of 4000lb.
>Additionally the larger hex extension reduces the load on the bolt. I
>haven't done any analysis on this particular design so I can't tell you for
>sure if the original design was grossly undersized, however, being that
>not everyone is having problems I would think that Vans design is not that
>far off. And this design would have less than a third of the stress in the
>bolt that Vans design has. I guess time will tell.
>
> One item that might be coming into play is the torque values. If one
>under torques a bolt its fatigue life may be reduced drastically. Thats
>because the bolt typically sees only a fraction of the applied load as the
>rest is going to relieve some of the preload in the joint. If the applied
>load is higher than the preload due to torque the joint will open up and
>drastically reduce the life of the bolt. Yes, this does mean the higher
>the torque the better up to the point where significant deformation of the
>threads occurs. Although this is just a guess it could very well be that
>the people having problems with Vans design at this location have not
>applied enough torque. I do realize that the bolt is being threaded into
>aluminum and one has to be more carefull
>
> Thousands of cycles by themselves are not a problem. In fact even
>aluminum (2024) can take more than 100 million cycles if you keep the peak
>stress below 10 ksi.
>
>
>Niko
>40188
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:18:18 AM
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
>
>
>
>Tim will tell you, I'll bet that even the AN6 bolt will shear.
>
>The vibration and the fulcrum point of the edge of the hex extension on the
>vertical face of the axle mount, cycled thousands and thousands of time
>will
>snap that bolt.
>
>I like to think of this design as the way early dental implants were
>designed. The screws used to snap of inside the implant or bend before
>snapping.
>
>This is why I love to understand the physics in everything including
>dentistry.
>
>John G
>
>Do not archive
>
>
> >From: Niko <owl40188@yahoo.com>
> >To: Matronics <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RV10-List: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method
> >Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:35:45 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got
> >very large and I was thinking that we could put another group buy at a
> >later date. These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up
> >working on this part earlier than I had anticipated. Being a bit early
>for
> >another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.
> >
> >I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a
>3/4
> >inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt. I have attached a few
>pictures
> >for those interested in trying the same modification.
> >
> >I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.
> >
> >Niko
> >40188
>
>
> ><< AxleExtensionSml1.jpg >>
>
>
> ><< AxleExtensionSml2.jpg >>
>
>
> ><< AxleExtension3Sml.jpg >>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Figure for Axle Extension email |
Message 32
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I have replaced them on 3 planes. The steel parts had worn down under the
bearing and we shorter and doing absolutely nothing. The wheel actually
wiggled back and forth. Fortunately they wore out on the steel flange on
the bearing and didn't wear into the fork, so the fork didn't need to be
replaced. I had to turn the axle down a little bit on all 3 planes, but
they seem to work great now. The big deal is the contact surface on the
bearing, but it also helps to have that much surface on the fork as well.
Having the axle the right length is crucial also.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Nose wheel
I still haven't gotten around to replacing my parts, but right now
they're keyed so they can't spin. I would absolutely 100%
without a doubt, with zero reservations say that people should
not use the stainless ones unless they both protect their forks,
and prevent them from spinning. You will *think* that all
will be well, because upon first assembly it all just seems
ok. But, with those stainless parts you will eventually have
a problem and when you do, you'll wreck your fork like I did.
That's the single worst flaw I've had to deal with in the 200
hours I've flown. Having not installed the new parts yet,
I can't say that they'll be better, but they sure as heck can't
be worse....so I'd use the new ones.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Dunne wrote:
> Further to the archived info on nose wheel valve stem clearance and the
> different wheel you can use, have the flying tens had any further issues
> with the turning of the axle spacers and axle?
> Using the stock parts as supplied by Vans, including the original
> stainless spacers, my wheel won't turn by hand at all. Correct torque
> applied. Also, I noticed Vans still say it's o.k to use either of their
> spacer designs although they are shipping the alloy version with their
> later kits. Given that Tims fix is well documented on his site, how have
> other builders addressed this?
>
> John 40315 (finishing misnomers)
>
--
11:27 AM
Message 33
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
One of the largest problems in the homebuilding circles IMHO is that of
solving problems that do not exist. Having built a few myself and being a
Technical counselor I see it over and over. Much time and energy spent on
thing that are not an issue. Wait until there are reports of a problem
before you spend the time and $$ to fix it.
Just my $.02
Gary
40274
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Ah, but if you do not view the problem directly it is both there and not
there at the same time.
Sorry, couldn't help it. :-D As Dan says, if it ain't broke, don't fix
it. Anyone actually look at what the burst pressure is of that line and
what the maximum pressure of the cylinders are?
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
And my point still stands regardless of what list he is referring too,
there are many more RV's flying than Lancairs, and this equals tried and
true in the field testing. If this was an issue it would have been
addressed. I am not saying there is not a better, more expensive way to
do it. Heck, even I bought Kevlar break lines for my motorcycle because
they looked cool, and maybe even gave me 15-20 pounds of additional
stopping force, but that was my choice not Honda's, and I would not say
as a manufacturer they did any thing wrong in providing the type they
did. As such, I do not think there is an issue with the lines, and the
install instructions that Vans puts out, as long as they are followed.
My discussion point was that John was making a sky is falling type
comment that if you do not upgrade your brake lines the originals will
not cut it and that is just not true, rather it is just the opposite, as
has been proven by a large fleet of airplanes. While a Lancair is a
great plane, there are not as many in their fleet so I would question
the number of issues that are in fact happening.
It is the same thing that happens here, one of us mention an issue and
several months later it is widely touted as being more widespread than
actual. So I am just trying to set the record straight that there is not
an issue with the break lines, rather you can spend money upgrading the
lines if you want to. Just like any other part of this plane, there are
plenty of people out there willing to take your money for something that
may or may not add additional benefit.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
Dan,
John frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van's
kits...but Lancairs. It was a recent topic of discussion along with
some alternatives. It did get me thinking about it and at one point
I was going to rework my lines. I'm currently sitting on the fence
though. Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think
that the issue is very grey in that:
* Not many fail
* Yes, there are better materials to use
* Yes, it is nice that you can see when the tubes are filling with air
rather than fluid (at the end of my brake life, mine had
some air in them at the top, so my reservoir was so small
that it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid
to push the calipers out WAAAY out.
* Yes, the plastic is strong enough to do the job
* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plastic down to the
brakes. In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humble
opinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the
fuselage to the wheel. Then either teflon or aluminum
in the tunnel.
* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives
* No, nobody even mentions service life
So currently, although I would like to have a good alternative that
is easy and affordable, I'm not yet motivated enough to want to
scrap them out. The thing is, ours are protected from UV, under
the firewall, and they're so cheap that what builders SHOULD do
(that they never seem to address) is replace them on a shorter
timeframe. There's no reason, at the low cost of that poly, that
you shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them. Why stretch
it to 10 or more just because they are still working. They aren't
as good as day 1, so why try. If protect them well from heat and
chafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,
and other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to
use the plastic. But if you install them in a questionable way,
and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for
trouble. And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,
yes, there are alternative lines available that do make some sense.
I just don't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,
because there's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer
diligence. With the more expensive lines, you'd still need to
do a good install if you want to expect them to be "permanent"
and give good service.
That's just my 3 cents. As I inspect them and find anything
questionable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them
for plastic, or look for good alternatives at that time.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying
RV's
> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
> as you imply.
> Dan
> N289DT
Message 34
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
I agree completely. A perfect example is the axle extender buy that Tim
orchestrated.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
One of the largest problems in the homebuilding circles IMHO is that of
solving problems that do not exist. Having built a few myself and being a
Technical counselor I see it over and over. Much time and energy spent on
thing that are not an issue. Wait until there are reports of a problem
before you spend the time and $$ to fix it.
Just my $.02
Gary
40274
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Ah, but if you do not view the problem directly it is both there and not
there at the same time.
Sorry, couldn't help it. :-D As Dan says, if it ain't broke, don't fix
it. Anyone actually look at what the burst pressure is of that line and
what the maximum pressure of the cylinders are?
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
And my point still stands regardless of what list he is referring too,
there are many more RV's flying than Lancairs, and this equals tried and
true in the field testing. If this was an issue it would have been
addressed. I am not saying there is not a better, more expensive way to
do it. Heck, even I bought Kevlar break lines for my motorcycle because
they looked cool, and maybe even gave me 15-20 pounds of additional
stopping force, but that was my choice not Honda's, and I would not say
as a manufacturer they did any thing wrong in providing the type they
did. As such, I do not think there is an issue with the lines, and the
install instructions that Vans puts out, as long as they are followed.
My discussion point was that John was making a sky is falling type
comment that if you do not upgrade your brake lines the originals will
not cut it and that is just not true, rather it is just the opposite, as
has been proven by a large fleet of airplanes. While a Lancair is a
great plane, there are not as many in their fleet so I would question
the number of issues that are in fact happening.
It is the same thing that happens here, one of us mention an issue and
several months later it is widely touted as being more widespread than
actual. So I am just trying to set the record straight that there is not
an issue with the break lines, rather you can spend money upgrading the
lines if you want to. Just like any other part of this plane, there are
plenty of people out there willing to take your money for something that
may or may not add additional benefit.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
Dan,
John frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van's
kits...but Lancairs. It was a recent topic of discussion along with
some alternatives. It did get me thinking about it and at one point
I was going to rework my lines. I'm currently sitting on the fence
though. Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think
that the issue is very grey in that:
* Not many fail
* Yes, there are better materials to use
* Yes, it is nice that you can see when the tubes are filling with air
rather than fluid (at the end of my brake life, mine had
some air in them at the top, so my reservoir was so small
that it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid
to push the calipers out WAAAY out.
* Yes, the plastic is strong enough to do the job
* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plastic down to the
brakes. In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humble
opinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the
fuselage to the wheel. Then either teflon or aluminum
in the tunnel.
* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives
* No, nobody even mentions service life
So currently, although I would like to have a good alternative that
is easy and affordable, I'm not yet motivated enough to want to
scrap them out. The thing is, ours are protected from UV, under
the firewall, and they're so cheap that what builders SHOULD do
(that they never seem to address) is replace them on a shorter
timeframe. There's no reason, at the low cost of that poly, that
you shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them. Why stretch
it to 10 or more just because they are still working. They aren't
as good as day 1, so why try. If protect them well from heat and
chafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,
and other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to
use the plastic. But if you install them in a questionable way,
and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for
trouble. And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,
yes, there are alternative lines available that do make some sense.
I just don't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,
because there's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer
diligence. With the more expensive lines, you'd still need to
do a good install if you want to expect them to be "permanent"
and give good service.
That's just my 3 cents. As I inspect them and find anything
questionable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them
for plastic, or look for good alternatives at that time.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying
RV's
> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If
> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans
> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread
> as you imply.
> Dan
> N289DT
--
11:27 AM
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
Amen!=0A=0AOr fixes that make things worse than the perceived problem
they are trying to avoid.- The AFP fuel servo with purge valve that is s
uppose to make hot starts easier comes to mind.- People install them and
then do not safety wire the set screws on the stops which leads to engine f
ailure.=0A=0ADo not archive.=0A=0AWilliam=0Ahttp://wcurtis.n
erv10.com/ =0A=0A----------------------------------------=0A -->
RV10-List message posted by: "gary" =0A=0AOne of the largest problems
in the homebuilding circles IMHO is that of=0Asolving problems that do
not exist. Having built a few myself and being a=0ATechnical counselor I
see it over and over. Much time and energy spent on=0Athing that are no
t an issue. Wait until there are reports of a problem=0Abefore you spend
the time and $$ to fix it.=0A=0AJust my $.02=0AGary=0A40274
=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server@matro
nics.com=0A[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV
Builder=0A(Michael Sausen)=0ASent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:37 PM
=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: Do the plast
r (Michael Sausen)"=0A=0AAh, but if you do not view the problem direc
tly it is both there and not=0Athere at the same time.=0A=0ASorry,
couldn't help it. :-D As Dan says, if it ain't broke, don't fix=0Ait. A
nyone actually look at what the burst pressure is of that line and=0Awha
t the maximum pressure of the cylinders are?=0A=0AMichael=0ADo not
archive=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-s
erver@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On B
ehalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.=0ASent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:22 PM=0A
." =0A=0AAnd my point still stands regardless of what list he is refe
rring too,=0Athere are many more RV's flying than Lancairs, and this equ
als tried and=0Atrue in the field testing. If this was an issue it would
have been=0Aaddressed. I am not saying there is not a better, more expe
nsive way to=0Ado it. Heck, even I bought Kevlar break lines for my moto
rcycle because=0Athey looked cool, and maybe even gave me 15-20 pounds o
f additional=0Astopping force, but that was my choice not Honda's, and I
would not say=0Aas a manufacturer they did any thing wrong in providing
the type they=0Adid. As such, I do not think there is an issue with the
lines, and the=0Ainstall instructions that Vans puts out, as long as th
ey are followed.=0AMy discussion point was that John was making a sky is
falling type=0Acomment that if you do not upgrade your brake lines the
originals will=0Anot cut it and that is just not true, rather it is just
the opposite, as=0Ahas been proven by a large fleet of airplanes. While
a Lancair is a=0Agreat plane, there are not as many in their fleet so I
would question=0Athe number of issues that are in fact happening.=0A
It is the same thing that happens here, one of us mention an issue and
=0Aseveral months later it is widely touted as being more widespread than
=0Aactual. So I am just trying to set the record straight that there is
not=0Aan issue with the break lines, rather you can spend money upgradin
g the=0Alines if you want to. Just like any other part of this plane, th
ere are=0Aplenty of people out there willing to take your money for some
thing that=0Amay or may not add additional benefit.=0ADan=0AN289DT
=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Tim Olson=0ASent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:41 AM=0ATo: rv10-list@
matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: Do the plastic brake lines leak?
=0A=0AJohn frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van'
s=0Akits...but Lancairs. It was a recent topic of discussion along with
=0Asome alternatives. It did get me thinking about it and at one point
=0AI was going to rework my lines. I'm currently sitting on the fence
=0Athough. Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think=0Ath
at the issue is very grey in that:=0A=0A* Not many fail=0A* Yes, t
here are better materials to use=0A* Yes, it is nice that you can see wh
en the tubes are filling with air=0Arather than fluid (at the end of my
brake life, mine had=0Asome air in them at the top, so my reservoir was
so small=0Athat it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid
=0Ato push the calipers out WAAAY out.=0A* Yes, the plastic is strong en
ough to do the job=0A* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plast
ic down to the=0Abrakes. In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humb
le=0Aopinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the=0Af
uselage to the wheel. Then either teflon or aluminum=0Ain the tunnel.
=0A* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives=0A* No,
nobody even mentions service life=0A=0ASo currently, although I would
like to have a good alternative that=0Ais easy and affordable, I'm not
yet motivated enough to want to=0Ascrap them out. The thing is, ours are
protected from UV, under=0Athe firewall, and they're so cheap that what
builders SHOULD do=0A(that they never seem to address) is replace them
on a shorter=0Atimeframe. There's no reason, at the low cost of that pol
y, that=0Ayou shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them. Why
stretch=0Ait to 10 or more just because they are still working. They are
n't=0Aas good as day 1, so why try. If protect them well from heat and
=0Achafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,
=0Aand other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to
=0Ause the plastic. But if you install them in a questionable way,=0A
and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for=0Atroub
le. And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,=0Ayes, the
re are alternative lines available that do make some sense.=0AI just don
't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,=0Abecause there
's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer=0Adiligence. With
the more expensive lines, you'd still need to=0Ado a good install if you
want to expect them to be "permanent"=0Aand give good service.=0A
=0AThat's just my 3 cents. As I inspect them and find anything=0Aquestio
nable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them=0Afor plastic,
or look for good alternatives at that time.=0A=0ATim Olson - RV-10 N1
04CD - Flying=0Ado not archive=0A=0ALloyd, Daniel R. wrote:=0A>
John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying=0ARV's
=0A> are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit?
If=0A> there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure V
ans=0A> with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide
=======================0A
=0A
Message 36
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| Subject: | Do the plastic brake lines leak? |
hi guys -
I believe I started all this plastic brake line business by asking the
simple question: do any of you out there have experience with these
lines leaking. apparently the answer has been mostly "nope". That's
good to hear. From many, the answer is "nope, but they might someday".
Then there's the "nope, and why fix something that isn't broken". I
thought since I began this discussion, I might sum up the responses a
bit, and point out that the constant in all the answers is that "nope.
they don't leak". And just to be clear, it's only lines under the
forward fuse deck, not lines going down to the wheels (which apparently
catch fire).
I was mostly asking about leaks because it kind of seems like passengers
could kick and kind of beat up the lines, and create a problem. Also if
it gets warm down there next to the firewall, I thought the compression
fittings might do something weird. I don't really have any experience
with this type of fitting, but I have a ton of experience with braided
steel and AN type fittings. Hence the question. I haven't decided if
I'll have some lines made, or if I'll just build em like it says in the
plans, but it's nice to know they work as designed. I'd just be bummed
not to have brakes in a non-steerable nosewheel plane. i think... it's
not like i've ever flown one before...
thanks for all the input guys!
cj
#40410
wings/fuse/finishing
do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | Dentist on the run...was brute force axle |
Lol......OK...I knew it was coming
"Size matters not, look at me. judge me by size, do you"
As Yoda lifts the RV10(X wing fighter) out of the swamp, Luke says,"I can't
believe it."
Yoda:"That is why you fail"
OK OK you win, nothing worse than a dentist without steady supply of work who starts
quoting Starwars!!!!!
How come your running?......big guy chasing ya? ;)
Seriously...I'm waiting for Niko to put up the calculation and shout out with a
big NANERNANANER!!
Cause if I done finished school...that's what I'd be doing! :) (Actually I did
and it does but involves all sorts of screwy symbols and figures, but he should
be OK)
Hope your lobby fills up Doc, (really, not being a smartass) in the words of another
great dentist..."I'll be your huckleberry" More of a western fan than Sci-Fi.
Rick S.
40185
Big misnomer bout the finishing part
And also know for not knowing when to just shut up!!
do not archive
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Figure for Axle Extension email |
Outstanding...um...that's a NANERNANERNANER..
do not archive
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