Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:46 AM - Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (Michael Wellenzohn)
2. 04:01 AM - Re: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (Jack Sargeant)
3. 04:14 AM - Re: Packing Lists (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
4. 04:22 AM - Re: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (Carl Froehlich)
5. 04:42 AM - Re: Packing Lists (Jim Beyer)
6. 04:52 AM - Re: Packing Lists (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
7. 05:18 AM - Re: S-N-F RV 10 Builder (Jesse Saint)
8. 06:01 AM - Re: High Altitude Performance (Jesse Saint)
9. 06:43 AM - Re: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (Jesse Saint)
10. 06:43 AM - Re: Packing Lists (Jesse Saint)
11. 06:51 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Jesse Saint)
12. 06:51 AM - Re: High Altitude Performance (Rob Kermanj)
13. 06:56 AM - Re: High Altitude Performance (Doerr, Ray R [NTK])
14. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: Sun-N-Fun (Jesse Saint)
15. 07:08 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Jesse Saint)
16. 07:25 AM - Rosen Visors (Jesse Saint)
17. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: AF3500 whoopiee! (Rick)
18. 07:53 AM - Re: New--CNC aluminum cabin top. (James K Hovis)
19. 08:06 AM - Re: Packing Lists (John W. Cox)
20. 08:17 AM - Re: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (John W. Cox)
21. 08:33 AM - EFIS Bewilderment (Phillips, Jack)
22. 08:33 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (John Gonzalez)
23. 08:36 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
24. 08:42 AM - Re: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
25. 08:49 AM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
26. 08:53 AM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
27. 09:36 AM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (Tim Olson)
28. 09:52 AM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (Jesse Saint)
29. 09:53 AM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (Jesse Saint)
30. 10:32 AM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (John Jessen)
31. 11:19 AM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (Tim Olson)
32. 11:30 AM - Re: Rosen Visors (jerry petersen)
33. 12:17 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (Jesse Saint)
34. 12:25 PM - Re: Rosen Visors (Larry Rosen)
35. 12:40 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (Phillips, Jack)
36. 01:01 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment (Tim Olson)
37. 01:56 PM - Re: Rosen Visors (Jesse Saint)
38. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Engine Mount Question ()
39. 02:09 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions (rtitsworth)
40. 02:41 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions (Jesse Saint)
41. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: Engine Mount Question (Jesse Saint)
42. 03:21 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions (rtitsworth)
43. 03:50 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions (Tim Olson)
44. 05:59 PM - Re: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (John W. Cox)
45. 06:54 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions (GenGrumpy@aol.com)
46. 06:58 PM - Re: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
47. 06:59 PM - Re: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? (Jesse Saint)
48. 07:04 PM - Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions (MauleDriver)
49. 08:45 PM - Re: Packing Lists (Deems Davis)
50. 08:50 PM - Inside of cabin top. (John Gonzalez)
51. 09:01 PM - Re: Rosen Visors (Deems Davis)
52. 11:28 PM - Re: Rosen Visors (ddddsp1@juno.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the VOR in the
wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
Message 2
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| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
YES!
But I won't attempt to guess how much. It will depend on the exact
composition of the paint, the thickness of the application, how well bonded
to the airplane structure, etc. It could range from a barely detectable
effect to no signal received.
Jack Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 2:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the VOR in
the wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Packing Lists |
In a message dated 4/22/2007 10:39:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fehdxl@gmail.com writes:
My guess it it should be 14-15 kits per month
Jim they could not live on 14-15 kits per month...
P
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
Not sure how much metal is in metallic paint. When I painted my plane, the
"metallic" additive to the paint mix was not metal.
Try it and see. I would guess you would not be able to measure the
difference in performance. I have a homemade wingtip comm. antenna and it
works fine. It is not as good as the belly bent whip comm antenna, but good
enough for a backup comm and fine for as a primary VOR antenna.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (325 hrs)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the VOR in
the wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Packing Lists |
How about 14-15 RV-10 kits per month? Sure, they sell other models too.
Here's my thought process... RV-10 builder numbers are in the 700's
(Patrick is 40715...drop the 4 and the rest is a sequential number), the
RV-10 has been out for ~36 months, that comes up to ~19 per month. I
figured Deems has more precise numbers, so 14-15 is the same order of
magnitude to 19. At least that's how I understood this whole builder number
thing works. Lets ask the source...
Deems, Did you mean to type "1415" per month or "14-15" RV-10 kits per
month?
-Jim
do not archive
On 4/23/07, GRANSCOTT@aol.com <GRANSCOTT@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Jim they could not live on 14-15 kits per month...
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Packing Lists |
Sorry I thought Jim was talking about over all kits...I'm sure they are
shipping more RV 8 and 9's that 10's or at least there were last year...Van's is
shipping more kits per year than any of the Certified aircraft producers are
delivering...so if one assumes that 80% of the kits are built then eventually
they, Van's will be one of the leading built planes in the market place.
P
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: S-N-F RV 10 Builder |
I didn't pay much attention to headset deals at Sun-N-Fun, but I will offer
my opinion on what is available. I personally am quite taken with the EM-1
headset by Headsets, Inc. I have purchased a total of 11 of these headsets
and the sound quality and comfort of the headsets is very good for the cost
(I think they are under $400 each). Customer service is quite good. They
were not at Sun-N-Fun, but their website is http://www.headsetsinc.com/.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: MB86967@aol.com [mailto:MB86967@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:15 PM
Subject: S-N-F RV 10 Builder
Hi Jesse
Thanks for all your input to the RV10 list. I am looking for a good buy on
a noise canceling headset.
Please reply to the RV 10 List if you see any specials at S-N-F in the
$500.00 +/- range. Would also appreciate your input on headsets.
Thanks
Mike Bantz
RV 40196
_____
See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
Message 8
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| Subject: | High Altitude Performance |
Bruce,
N256H has flown as high as 22,000ft, but it didn't like it that high
(indicated airspeed was almost at the stall speed). It likes flying as high
as 18,000ft very much, and it is easier not going over that anyway for
Oxygen and IFR reasons. If I were to pick a flight altitude for a long
flight, with no wind or a constant tailwind, I would go 17,000-18,000
because you can get really nice fuel economy (7.5gph with TAS around 155Kts
- over 20Nmpg). With a constant headwind, I would probably go a little
lower and a little faster (maybe 12,000-14,000ft) so I would not be pushing
the wind for as long.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bruce
breckenridge
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:27 AM
Subject: RV10-List: High Altitude Performance
<bbreckenridge@gmail.com>
With the RV-10's estimated Ceiling at 24,000ft with the 260hp
(non-turbonormalized of course), I'm just wondering what altitudes
many of you flyers are cruising at on long trips? And, do you notice
a peak in response, handling or performance at a certain altitudes?
Given a long 4 hour leg and the perfect day (ok, a nice tail wind at
all altitudes), would you pick a certain flight altitude and why?
Curious in Clackamas,
Bruce
40018 Wings forever
Message 9
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| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
I don't know the difference between a metallic paint and a pearled paint,
but we have noticed no lack of signal strength in the planes that have been
painted with a pearled paint on the wingtips. We haven't actually compared
the distance that a signal is received from, but it is certainly not a
noticeable difference.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sargeant
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:00 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
YES!
But I won't attempt to guess how much. It will depend on the exact
composition of the paint, the thickness of the application, how well bonded
to the airplane structure, etc. It could range from a barely detectable
effect to no signal received.
Jack Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 2:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the VOR in
the wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
Message 10
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They are now down to 5-10 RV-10 kits/month according to them.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Packing Lists
In a message dated 4/22/2007 10:39:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fehdxl@gmail.com writes:
My guess it it should be 14-15 kits per month
Jim they could not live on 14-15 kits per month...
P
_____
See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
Message 11
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You mean this beautiful engine? I can take pictures of it, but Egg is going
to have to send it to you. :-)
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
In addition, I hope Jesse can take pictures of it and send it to me?
PLEASE!!!
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
Is Eggenfellner there and has is he shipped any of his E6 turbos. Thanks.
Dave Leikam
40496
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com> Saint
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 8:15 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
We're down here in the camper now and are getting ready for a great week.
We have N416EC here and I will be hanging around it a fair bit as well as
going through the vendor tents. If there is anybody who isn't able to be
here and really wants to hear the updates on a certain product, let me know
and I will see what I can do. I have internet here, so will plan to keep up
on the list stuff in the evenings.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: High Altitude Performance |
Good info. Thanks.
do not archive.
On Apr 23, 2007, at 9:01 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
> <jesse@saintaviation.com>
>
> Bruce,
>
> N256H has flown as high as 22,000ft, but it didn't like it that high
> (indicated airspeed was almost at the stall speed). It likes
> flying as high
> as 18,000ft very much, and it is easier not going over that anyway for
> Oxygen and IFR reasons. If I were to pick a flight altitude for a
> long
> flight, with no wind or a constant tailwind, I would go 17,000-18,000
> because you can get really nice fuel economy (7.5gph with TAS
> around 155Kts
> - over 20Nmpg). With a constant headwind, I would probably go a
> little
> lower and a little faster (maybe 12,000-14,000ft) so I would not be
> pushing
> the wind for as long.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> www.saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bruce
> breckenridge
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:27 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: High Altitude Performance
>
> <bbreckenridge@gmail.com>
>
> With the RV-10's estimated Ceiling at 24,000ft with the 260hp
> (non-turbonormalized of course), I'm just wondering what altitudes
> many of you flyers are cruising at on long trips? And, do you notice
> a peak in response, handling or performance at a certain altitudes?
> Given a long 4 hour leg and the perfect day (ok, a nice tail wind at
> all altitudes), would you pick a certain flight altitude and why?
>
> Curious in Clackamas,
> Bruce
> 40018 Wings forever
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | High Altitude Performance |
I flew from Kansas City to Sun N Fun at 11,500. MAP was 19.5" and ran 2200 RPM
burning 9 GPH, OAT was 38 F. True airspeed was 140 Kts and with the 50 Kts
tail wind, I was getting 190 kts ground speed. I still don't have my main wheel
fairings and gear legs. This was a nice super econ cruise. Made the 920 nm
trip in 5.5 hours, one stop.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250
N519RV (242 on the Hobbs)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bruce breckenridge
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: High Altitude Performance
With the RV-10's estimated Ceiling at 24,000ft with the 260hp
(non-turbonormalized of course), I'm just wondering what altitudes
many of you flyers are cruising at on long trips? And, do you notice
a peak in response, handling or performance at a certain altitudes?
Given a long 4 hour leg and the perfect day (ok, a nice tail wind at
all altitudes), would you pick a certain flight altitude and why?
Curious in Clackamas,
Bruce
40018 Wings forever
Message 14
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I didn't get any info on Great Plains, but Dynon's new HSI add-on unit is very
nice. Also, I really like the new options in the software update coming up soon
(which is and always will be free to anybody who owns a Dynon). The HSI gives
a knob that defaults to baro adjustment, which eliminates the need to use
the menu, and it also gives verbal warnings instead of just a beep. It also accepts
just about any input from a NAV radio or GPS, so you are not limited to
just the SL-30 for glideslope anymore, and it will give the glideslope info on
a WAAS approach also, if the GPS has that info. It could actually serve as
an HSI and a 2nd CDI at the same time because it has enough inputs, that it can
have the HSI display and have another marker that will point to another VOR.
Now the problem is that there is so much information that one 7" screen isn't
big enough. They are pushing for the option to turn the screens vertical, which
would allow for 2 of them side-by-side on the left side of the panel while
keeping the radio stack left of center (where it should be, IMHO). They are
talking about bigger screens, GPS moving map, and Auto Pilot functions, but there
is nothing to report.
Oh yeah, and they have a heated AOA pitot now, that has a controller similar to
that of the Gretz pitot, so you can just turn it on and leave it on. The AOA
display looks really good in the new software (although I don't remember what
it looked like before).
Also, there is the option to display a couple of pieces of engine info on the efis
page (the display was showing RPM and MAP) for when you are showing the EFIS
and HSI pages and no engine monitor (this is mainly a plus for the FlightDEK
people).
DSAB is soon to be fully utilized, so only 2 wires connecting all Dynon units will
share all info. I really like that. The best setup, IMHO, is a FlightDEK
and an EFIS to get 2 screens, redundancy and battery backup on the engine monitor
info.
Yes, the AFS stuff looked great, but I continue to like the Dynon price point and
stability.
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:04 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Sun-N-Fun
jesse(at)saintaviation.co wrote:
> If there is anybody who isnt able to be here and really wants to hear the updates
on a certain product, let me know and I will see what I can do.
If you run across any EFIS info, right now the 2 things I am most interested in
is Great Plains new addition to its EFIS and if Dynon is going to match it in
the next by next summer when I plan on placing my order for the main unit, which
ever brand I go with.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N410GB reserved)
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107474#107474
Message 15
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I couldn't tell a lot of difference, but the physical unit looked different
on the front, with the hi-res screen sunken in instead of flush on the front
like the earlier screens. They mentioned that it is now anti-aliased, so a
line like the horizon that is not perfectly horizontal would appear as a
perfect non-horizontal line, instead of an array of short offset horizontal
lines. I did notice, however, that this is not completely true, as at least
one line that I looked at was not anti-aliased. I do like the GRT system
and the amount of information that it offers, but I am not crazy about the
graphics. I think they leave a lot to be desired. Also, with so many
functions in the same unit, there is just TONS of menu/submenu structure
that seems to quite surpass even the Dynon, which has a fair bit of menu
structure.
That is one thing that TruTrak's EFIS is combating, with very little menu
structure and very little "extra" info on the screen. The downside of the
TruTrak is that even the Engine Monitor will have to be a separate screen.
I like the option of having an auto pilot built into the EFIS, but not even
giving a TAS calculation or any engine info seems to be quite limited,
especially since it is starting at $4,000. It will be a perfect fit for a
specific market, but I think the -10 needs more info front and center
instead of just a 7" screen that combines 4-5 of the 6-pack instruments in
the same amount of space. What is has going for it is the clean and super
easy function, which some will definitely go for.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ritter
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:25 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
Info on new GRT Hi Res screens.
Mark
>From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@saintaviation.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:15:55 -0400
>
>We're down here in the camper now and are getting ready for a great week.
>We have N416EC here and I will be hanging around it a fair bit as well as
>going through the vendor tents. If there is anybody who isn't able to be
>here and really wants to hear the updates on a certain product, let me know
>and I will see what I can do. I have internet here, so will plan to keep
>up
>on the list stuff in the evenings.
>
>
>Do not archive.
>
>
>Jesse Saint
>
>Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
>jesse@saintaviation.com
>
>www.saintaviation.com
>
>Cell: 352-427-0285
>
>Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3
Message 16
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I am waiting on a quote from Rosen on a group buy for their visors. My
opinion is that the Cirrus lense (8x15.5") is the right lense and a
combination of the Cessna 310 and the Piper base is the way to go. They are
going to quote me on the combination soon, hopefully. I told them that I
estimated a group buy of 50 sets, which hopefully won't be too far off. The
only thing I'm not crazy about is the gap (as seen in the attached picture)
between the base and the curved portion of the door channel. For those who
are not finished yet, this would be an easy fix, just filling that with flox
as was mentioned in another post, but for those with a finished cabin top,
this will be more difficult, and many will probably end up just putting it
in an leaving the gap, which would not make a big structural difference
MAYBE, but would certainly be weaker and more likely to break with continued
use. I am still thinking about having the CNC shop make the "perfect base"
is such is possible. I will let you know what I find out. Also, for those
who purchased a visor at SNF, please post pictures and dimensions of your
mount.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: AF3500 whoopiee! |
I think the AFS system is great, that's why I went with them. Rob has always been
upgrading his products so the weather and moving map stuff comes as no surprise.
Heres my panel with the two 3500 screens, 480/MX-20/SL-30/TT RV-10 AP/PMA-8000
plus the IFR backups assembled by Accuracy Avionics...If your considering
an avionics company check them out, I highly recommend them.
Heres the link to a photo of my panel in their booth last week.
http://www.vansairforce.net/delete_eventually/DSCF0034.jpg
Rick S.
40185
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: New--CNC aluminum cabin top. |
You joke, but it CAN be done if you're willing to pay for it. In my real
life, I've been heavily involved in large monolithic machined aircraft
structures (both Ti and Al). I even designed a four seat airplane 10 years
ago around the use of large monolithic machinings to cut build time, ended
up looking like an RV-10, but was based on AA-1A and AA-5C (I had an AA-1A
then). The RV-10 fiberglass could be replaced with maybe five or six
aluminum machinings (top (might need to divide into two pieces), 2 parts for
forward windshield arch, and two each for rear window panels). Using tab and
slot and match holes, assembly wouldn't be that much and maybe some body
putty to fill some gaps. At today's prices, machining from 2124-T7351 plate
would probably mean the cost would be every bit of $10,000, not counting
design costs. Using 7075 or 7050 Al will lower the cost a little. Of course,
if you could order 1000 parts from a machine house, you get better deals on
cost....
Kevin Hovis
On 4/21/07, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
>
> And now you know, for those of you who laughed way back when, how I got
> that grumpy looking face in one of those photos while I was working on
> the fuselage canopy and painting prep. ;)
>
> I feel for ya Johnny!
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> John Gonzalez wrote:
> >
> >
> > It took me twenty minutes to install this new option. It is surprisingly
> > light. The fit was unbelievable, it dropped right in. This thing even
> > has optional windows on the top with sweet hinges and levered locks
> > which pull the plexi glass sunroofs down tight onto rubber seals. The
> > best part is the outside surface finish. There is no un-wetted
> > fiberglass which stands out, showing thousands and thousands of tiny
> > bubbles, little bubbles, all over the entire top. No blue painters tape
> > embedded in the first layers of glass. Oh, and the door hinge recesses,
> > they are perfectly sized and there are no saw and grinder marks and long
> > voids where the resin and cotton flox mixture didn't get into the tight
> > corners of the recesses
> >
> > If anyone is interested let me know and I'll forward the link.
> >
> > I think this option by the looks of my fiberglass canopy top should save
> > about fifty to sixty hours of work both in fitting and then prepping the
> > inside and then the outside for paint.
> >
> > I've seen fiberglass sewage holding tanks that were made better then my
> > canopy top.
> >
> > ITS SHAMEFUL!
> >
> > OPPS!!!_______________ there is no such top and no such link.
> >
> > Thirteen hours in and I'm afraid the fitting will not be the hard part,
> > it will be filling in all the voids, on the skin and in the corners and
> > flanges. Oh does my back**&*&*%$#$@#$%ing hurt.
> >
> > They really could do a much better job with these tops.
> >
> > Sorry for the sarcasm.
> >
> > JOhn G.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 19
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January 22 the shipment was kit #692, April 20th kit #715. That is 23
kits in 90 days and consistent with shipments in 2006 and 2005. I think
the number will go up as OSH '07 approaches (with or without Deems
hyphen - - - ). The next question would be, "Will VAN announce the
RV-12 at OSH and will it have any impact on sales of the RV10?" Will
Cessna use the heavier Continental or swing back to the ROTAX?
John Cox
3600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 6:43 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Packing Lists
They are now down to 5-10 RV-10 kits/month according to them.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
GRANSCOTT@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Packing Lists
In a message dated 4/22/2007 10:39:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fehdxl@gmail.com writes:
My guess it it should be 14-15 kits per month
Jim they could not live on 14-15 kits per month...
P
________________________________
See what's free at AOL.com
<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
YES.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
<rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the
VOR in the wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
Message 21
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment |
OK, group. I'm going to expose my ignorance about avionics. I went
down to SNF with my primary goal being learning about the various
options for EFIS. What I found was a bewildering array of choices at
prices ranging from $3,000 to $50,000.
Without knowing much about the units and their capabilities, I went to
the following vendors, Dynon, Chelton, Avidyne, Grand Rapids Technology
(GRT), AFS, and Blue Mountain. I asked each of them to show me how an
ILS approach would look on their system. Since I'm instrument rated and
learned to fly ILS approaches using convential VOR/GS equipement, I
wanted to see how much better the new technology would work.
What I found was that no one system has everything I want. Except for
GRT, every system I looked at either didn't have a suitable demo
configured to show an ILS approach (what are they thinking?), or they
could do it, but the Localizer just showed as a small pip on the bottom
of the screen, with the Glideslope an equally small pip on the side of
the screen.
When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the
localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with a
"doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross. In
addition I want airspeed (or AOA), altitude and an artifical horizon.
The GRT system did this very well. At around $13,000 for a two panel
system it is also at about the upper end of what I can afford to pay (I
liked the Chelton and Avidyne systems, but at $31,000 and $50,000
respectively, they are out of my price range). I talked with a couple
of RV-10 builders at the Van's tent and they mostly seemed to favor
either the GRT system or the Dynon.
I did like the engine monitor panel that AFS provides, like Van's put on
N410RV. I wonder how well it would work to have their engine panel with
GRT's EFIS?
At the risk of starting a huge thread, I would like to see a discussion
of the strong points and weak points of the systems that are in my
limited price range, which includes AFS, Dynon, Blue Mountain and GRT.
Anyone have actual flying experience (including actual instrument
approaches) that they would like to share?
Jack Phillips
#40610
Raleigh, NC
_________________________________________________
Message 22
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Even though he adopted this one and it was not of a natural birth, I am sure
Dan is suffering some serious seperation anxeity at this point.
John G.
Do Not Archive
>From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@saintaviation.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
>Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:49:14 -0400
>
>You mean this beautiful engine? I can take pictures of it, but Egg is
>going
>to have to send it to you. :-)
>
>
>Jesse Saint
>
>Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
>jesse@saintaviation.com
>
>www.saintaviation.com
>
>Cell: 352-427-0285
>
>Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
>Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:12 AM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
>
>
>In addition, I hope Jesse can take pictures of it and send it to me?
>
>PLEASE!!!
>
>Dan
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
>Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:49 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
>
>Is Eggenfellner there and has is he shipped any of his E6 turbos. Thanks.
>
>
>Dave Leikam
>
>40496
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: Jesse <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com> Saint
>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>
>Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 8:15 PM
>
>Subject: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
>
>
>We're down here in the camper now and are getting ready for a great week.
>We have N416EC here and I will be hanging around it a fair bit as well as
>going through the vendor tents. If there is anybody who isn't able to be
>here and really wants to hear the updates on a certain product, let me know
>and I will see what I can do. I have internet here, so will plan to keep
>up
>on the list stuff in the evenings.
>
>
>Do not archive.
>
>
>Jesse Saint
>
>Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
>jesse@saintaviation.com
>
>www.saintaviation.com
>
>Cell: 352-427-0285
>
>Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
>/Navigator?RV10-List
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
>/Navigator?RV10-List
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
><< DSC_9172.JPG >>
><< DSC_9175.JPG >>
><< DSC_9176.JPG >>
><< DSC_9177.JPG >>
><< DSC_9178.JPG >>
Message 23
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THX for the pics, I am getting a good collection from people who have
seen my engine at the booth. It is supposed to ship as soon as they get
back from S&F, so hopefully it will be mounted and running shortly
thereafter!
Dan
N289DT RV10E, waiting to hang the "E" portion
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
You mean this beautiful engine? I can take pictures of it, but Egg is
going to have to send it to you. :-)
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
In addition, I hope Jesse can take pictures of it and send it to me?
PLEASE!!!
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
Is Eggenfellner there and has is he shipped any of his E6 turbos.
Thanks.
Dave Leikam
40496
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 8:15 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
We're down here in the camper now and are getting ready for a
great week. We have N416EC here and I will be hanging around it a fair
bit as well as going through the vendor tents. If there is anybody who
isn't able to be here and really wants to hear the updates on a certain
product, let me know and I will see what I can do. I have internet
here, so will plan to keep up on the list stuff in the evenings.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 24
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| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
That has got to be the shortest answer I have ever seen from John! You feeling
ok? Got me a little worried! :-D
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
YES.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
<rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the
VOR in the wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Bewilderment |
In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:34:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com writes:
When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the
localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with a
"doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross.
Jack,
I've flown the G 1000 several times in actual...and the presentation for the
new equipment is not going to be like steam guages...you've got to learn a new
system. You can hand fly the G 1000 down the slope using the tapes or one
can monitor the approach on the auto pilot as you control pitch and power. As
far as I know, no one is replicating a steam guage face in modern avionics, not
the airlines, corp or ga...Once you get with the tapes and an EFIS they are
all in one place right infront of you...you don't need to scan side to side and
up and down...it's all bacially straight a head of you...and if you want to
glance at the MFD you can see how you are progressing...the Chilton will even
give you a wind correction angle to fly on the EFIS...I don't see how it can be
any simpler...some of us ol' dogs got to learn new tricks.
P
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Bewilderment |
In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:51:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
GRANSCOTT@aol.com writes:
...the Chilton will even give you a wind correction angle to fly on the EFIS..
correction...I meant to say EHSI...to many initials an so little time!!!
P
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Bewilderment |
Jack,
Welcome to the agony of the EFIS decision process. ;)
I think you have a mixed-bag in your question. On one hand, there
are systems in those that you listed that definitely have
some limitations as to how they present info or how well
they drive autopilots to do approaches, but on the other hand,
I think a majority of them would fly an ILS very nicely.
That said, how well you can display an CDI for flying an
ILS is just a tiny fraction of the many features that you
need to compare, and educating yourself as to the overall
features/advantages/benefits of each system can be one of
the hardest things to do. I will say it again, as I've
said before....if someone is seriously considering buying
an EFIS, especially for IFR flight, you will do yourself
a big favor and the money will be well spent if you
will just take the time to do a demo flight with a flying
system. Not a demo software app, but a real demo flight,
where you can push buttons and ask questions.
Each of the vendors below has progressed in the past 1-2
years, with new equipment or new features being added.
They just keep getting nicer, as we're seeing with
the AFS system adding weather, and the Dynon adding
more NAV functions, the GRT's screens that are soon to
come, and more. Finding the right EFIS for you though,
will still be as hard of a decision as ever, as no matter
how you slice it, EVERY system has a list of negatives
that go along with it's list of positives.
The subject gets into too much depth to do in one email, and
unless you're asking about one function in particular, it's
just going to start a flurry of "mine is best" emails if
you ask the list to tell you what to decide. In the
end, I believe the best way to decide is to read all
of the feature lists, and develop your own feature
requirements. Then find a match, and toss out all the
other choices. Once you make it that far, you probably
have a short list, and you should contact people to try
to get a demo flight with the unit. Also, unless you
have a lot of trust, buy a unit based on the feature
set that it has at the time you spend your money. Often
times the vendors will pre-sell these features that
really don't exist for months or even years afterwards
in production.
Most of the major players in the EFIS market are doing
a good job at making strides in product improvement,
and depending on your other radio and instrument choices,
and your feature requirements, it could be very possible
to meet your goals without totally smashing your budget.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Phillips, Jack wrote:
>
> OK, group. I'm going to expose my ignorance about avionics. I went
> down to SNF with my primary goal being learning about the various
> options for EFIS. What I found was a bewildering array of choices at
> prices ranging from $3,000 to $50,000.
>
> Without knowing much about the units and their capabilities, I went to
> the following vendors, Dynon, Chelton, Avidyne, Grand Rapids Technology
> (GRT), AFS, and Blue Mountain. I asked each of them to show me how an
> ILS approach would look on their system. Since I'm instrument rated and
> learned to fly ILS approaches using convential VOR/GS equipement, I
> wanted to see how much better the new technology would work.
>
> What I found was that no one system has everything I want. Except for
> GRT, every system I looked at either didn't have a suitable demo
> configured to show an ILS approach (what are they thinking?), or they
> could do it, but the Localizer just showed as a small pip on the bottom
> of the screen, with the Glideslope an equally small pip on the side of
> the screen.
>
> When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the
> localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with a
> "doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross. In
> addition I want airspeed (or AOA), altitude and an artifical horizon.
> The GRT system did this very well. At around $13,000 for a two panel
> system it is also at about the upper end of what I can afford to pay (I
> liked the Chelton and Avidyne systems, but at $31,000 and $50,000
> respectively, they are out of my price range). I talked with a couple
> of RV-10 builders at the Van's tent and they mostly seemed to favor
> either the GRT system or the Dynon.
>
> I did like the engine monitor panel that AFS provides, like Van's put on
> N410RV. I wonder how well it would work to have their engine panel with
> GRT's EFIS?
>
> At the risk of starting a huge thread, I would like to see a discussion
> of the strong points and weak points of the systems that are in my
> limited price range, which includes AFS, Dynon, Blue Mountain and GRT.
> Anyone have actual flying experience (including actual instrument
> approaches) that they would like to share?
>
> Jack Phillips
> #40610
> Raleigh, NC
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment |
The Dynon with a Garmin stack including a 430 and a GDL106A NAV display is
what N256H, N415EC and N416EC have and all have done actual IFR approaches
on this system and it works fine. It really is a great combination of the
old (NAV display) and the new (EFIS and IFR GPS). Not all your eggs are in
one basket, and it is probably the cheapest good IFR system you can buy.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment
<Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
OK, group. I'm going to expose my ignorance about avionics. I went
down to SNF with my primary goal being learning about the various
options for EFIS. What I found was a bewildering array of choices at
prices ranging from $3,000 to $50,000.
Without knowing much about the units and their capabilities, I went to
the following vendors, Dynon, Chelton, Avidyne, Grand Rapids Technology
(GRT), AFS, and Blue Mountain. I asked each of them to show me how an
ILS approach would look on their system. Since I'm instrument rated and
learned to fly ILS approaches using convential VOR/GS equipement, I
wanted to see how much better the new technology would work.
What I found was that no one system has everything I want. Except for
GRT, every system I looked at either didn't have a suitable demo
configured to show an ILS approach (what are they thinking?), or they
could do it, but the Localizer just showed as a small pip on the bottom
of the screen, with the Glideslope an equally small pip on the side of
the screen.
When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the
localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with a
"doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross. In
addition I want airspeed (or AOA), altitude and an artifical horizon.
The GRT system did this very well. At around $13,000 for a two panel
system it is also at about the upper end of what I can afford to pay (I
liked the Chelton and Avidyne systems, but at $31,000 and $50,000
respectively, they are out of my price range). I talked with a couple
of RV-10 builders at the Van's tent and they mostly seemed to favor
either the GRT system or the Dynon.
I did like the engine monitor panel that AFS provides, like Van's put on
N410RV. I wonder how well it would work to have their engine panel with
GRT's EFIS?
At the risk of starting a huge thread, I would like to see a discussion
of the strong points and weak points of the systems that are in my
limited price range, which includes AFS, Dynon, Blue Mountain and GRT.
Anyone have actual flying experience (including actual instrument
approaches) that they would like to share?
Jack Phillips
#40610
Raleigh, NC
_________________________________________________
Message 29
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment |
Oh, and don't forget the TruTrak Sorcerer, which will fly the approach for
you on the ILS or GPA WAAS. Just remember that it won't flare for you.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment
<Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
OK, group. I'm going to expose my ignorance about avionics. I went
down to SNF with my primary goal being learning about the various
options for EFIS. What I found was a bewildering array of choices at
prices ranging from $3,000 to $50,000.
Without knowing much about the units and their capabilities, I went to
the following vendors, Dynon, Chelton, Avidyne, Grand Rapids Technology
(GRT), AFS, and Blue Mountain. I asked each of them to show me how an
ILS approach would look on their system. Since I'm instrument rated and
learned to fly ILS approaches using convential VOR/GS equipement, I
wanted to see how much better the new technology would work.
What I found was that no one system has everything I want. Except for
GRT, every system I looked at either didn't have a suitable demo
configured to show an ILS approach (what are they thinking?), or they
could do it, but the Localizer just showed as a small pip on the bottom
of the screen, with the Glideslope an equally small pip on the side of
the screen.
When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the
localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with a
"doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross. In
addition I want airspeed (or AOA), altitude and an artifical horizon.
The GRT system did this very well. At around $13,000 for a two panel
system it is also at about the upper end of what I can afford to pay (I
liked the Chelton and Avidyne systems, but at $31,000 and $50,000
respectively, they are out of my price range). I talked with a couple
of RV-10 builders at the Van's tent and they mostly seemed to favor
either the GRT system or the Dynon.
I did like the engine monitor panel that AFS provides, like Van's put on
N410RV. I wonder how well it would work to have their engine panel with
GRT's EFIS?
At the risk of starting a huge thread, I would like to see a discussion
of the strong points and weak points of the systems that are in my
limited price range, which includes AFS, Dynon, Blue Mountain and GRT.
Anyone have actual flying experience (including actual instrument
approaches) that they would like to share?
Jack Phillips
#40610
Raleigh, NC
_________________________________________________
Message 30
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment |
Yes, it may be too broad a topic for this list to get into in detail, but it
might be possible for those who are flying and have flown their systems IFR
to do the following:
1. What is the one thing you have discovered about your system that is an
absolute joy and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you bought
what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what you did);
2. Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have found that
you do not like about your system, either because something is lacking or
because the implementation could have been better.
For example, I'm just beginning to understand what "fully integrated" means
and why it might be worthwhile to consider, even though such systems are
rather spendy.
John (in buildus interruptus purgatory) Jessen
#40328
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment
Jack,
Welcome to the agony of the EFIS decision process. ;) I think you have a
mixed-bag in your question. On one hand, there are systems in those that
you listed that definitely have some limitations as to how they present info
or how well they drive autopilots to do approaches, but on the other hand, I
think a majority of them would fly an ILS very nicely.
That said, how well you can display an CDI for flying an ILS is just a tiny
fraction of the many features that you need to compare, and educating
yourself as to the overall features/advantages/benefits of each system can
be one of the hardest things to do. I will say it again, as I've said
before....if someone is seriously considering buying an EFIS, especially for
IFR flight, you will do yourself a big favor and the money will be well
spent if you will just take the time to do a demo flight with a flying
system. Not a demo software app, but a real demo flight, where you can push
buttons and ask questions.
Each of the vendors below has progressed in the past 1-2 years, with new
equipment or new features being added.
They just keep getting nicer, as we're seeing with the AFS system adding
weather, and the Dynon adding more NAV functions, the GRT's screens that are
soon to come, and more. Finding the right EFIS for you though, will still
be as hard of a decision as ever, as no matter how you slice it, EVERY
system has a list of negatives that go along with it's list of positives.
The subject gets into too much depth to do in one email, and unless you're
asking about one function in particular, it's just going to start a flurry
of "mine is best" emails if you ask the list to tell you what to decide. In
the end, I believe the best way to decide is to read all of the feature
lists, and develop your own feature requirements. Then find a match, and
toss out all the other choices. Once you make it that far, you probably
have a short list, and you should contact people to try to get a demo flight
with the unit. Also, unless you have a lot of trust, buy a unit based on
the feature set that it has at the time you spend your money. Often times
the vendors will pre-sell these features that really don't exist for months
or even years afterwards in production.
Most of the major players in the EFIS market are doing a good job at making
strides in product improvement, and depending on your other radio and
instrument choices, and your feature requirements, it could be very possible
to meet your goals without totally smashing your budget.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Phillips, Jack wrote:
> --> <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
>
> OK, group. I'm going to expose my ignorance about avionics. I went
> down to SNF with my primary goal being learning about the various
> options for EFIS. What I found was a bewildering array of choices at
> prices ranging from $3,000 to $50,000.
>
> Without knowing much about the units and their capabilities, I went to
> the following vendors, Dynon, Chelton, Avidyne, Grand Rapids
> Technology (GRT), AFS, and Blue Mountain. I asked each of them to
> show me how an ILS approach would look on their system. Since I'm
> instrument rated and learned to fly ILS approaches using convential
> VOR/GS equipement, I wanted to see how much better the new technology
would work.
>
> What I found was that no one system has everything I want. Except for
> GRT, every system I looked at either didn't have a suitable demo
> configured to show an ILS approach (what are they thinking?), or they
> could do it, but the Localizer just showed as a small pip on the
> bottom of the screen, with the Glideslope an equally small pip on the
> side of the screen.
>
> When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the
> localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with
> a "doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross. In
> addition I want airspeed (or AOA), altitude and an artifical horizon.
> The GRT system did this very well. At around $13,000 for a two panel
> system it is also at about the upper end of what I can afford to pay
> (I liked the Chelton and Avidyne systems, but at $31,000 and $50,000
> respectively, they are out of my price range). I talked with a couple
> of RV-10 builders at the Van's tent and they mostly seemed to favor
> either the GRT system or the Dynon.
>
> I did like the engine monitor panel that AFS provides, like Van's put
> on N410RV. I wonder how well it would work to have their engine panel
> with GRT's EFIS?
>
> At the risk of starting a huge thread, I would like to see a
> discussion of the strong points and weak points of the systems that
> are in my limited price range, which includes AFS, Dynon, Blue Mountain
and GRT.
> Anyone have actual flying experience (including actual instrument
> approaches) that they would like to share?
>
> Jack Phillips
> #40610
> Raleigh, NC
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Bewilderment |
Shooting from the hip on this one, without much thought, but my
answers to 1 and 2 might be:
1) I previously after only seeing HITS on MS Flight Sim, thought that
such systems were gimicks and HITS was cheesy at best. I've found in
practice though that when you take the HITS, and combine it with
a full IFR approach database that even includes SIDS and STARS,
and then couple it to an overhead map that displays WX/TIS/Terrain
data, and draws the full approaches, AND, to top it all off, it can
control your autopilot, that the HITS and everything else can be a huge,
or maybe put that in caps....HUGE...benefit to ease of flying
in IMC. I went from being a person who very often and easily got
"the leans" in IMC flight, to a person who hasn't experienced them
once since flying with a synthetic vision EFIS. It's been truly
amazing. If you have to load and manage your approach using an
external box, then you don't know what you're missing. For me,
the GNS480 is really truly just a backup instrument.
2) This question gets to be much harder for me personally.
I think the sport system could use more ARINC ports like the
pro systems, and if they then would decode the Garmin
proprietary stuff they could drop the ARINC converter
from the system and get TIS directly via ARINC from a GTX330.
That would be nice, and save some money and wiring, and
with some additional decoding, it would be nice to have
auto-tuning of the GNS480 as my #2 comm....At least though when
you have an SL-30 (the worlds ultimate radio, IMHO) you can
do a MONitor of the 2nd NAV Freq. on the SL-30 and display both
CDI's on the screen simultaneously, so it could be worse
if that weren't the case.
Oh, and a negative for most any of the systems, including
mine....it's too bad that WX data has to be such a paid-for
subscription thing. Doesn't matter if you have XM or WSI,
but it sure would be nice to have that cost be $10/mo.
Had some good storms on my screen 50 miles distant this
weekend and it was nice to know where they were all
the time though, so I'll just keep paying up.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Jessen wrote:
>
> Yes, it may be too broad a topic for this list to get into in detail, but it
> might be possible for those who are flying and have flown their systems IFR
> to do the following:
>
> 1. What is the one thing you have discovered about your system that is an
> absolute joy and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you bought
> what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what you did);
>
> 2. Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have found that
> you do not like about your system, either because something is lacking or
> because the implementation could have been better.
>
> For example, I'm just beginning to understand what "fully integrated" means
> and why it might be worthwhile to consider, even though such systems are
> rather spendy.
>
> John (in buildus interruptus purgatory) Jessen
> #40328
>
> do not archive
>
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rosen Visors |
If you look to the left and below the mount you will
notice we prepared a flat area for the mount. When
the time came to install the visor we determined it
needed to be higher on the door channel. It was too
late in the process to make a change but it would be
easy to modify the area or form a type of washer or
gasket if it looked like it was needed. The visor is
very helpful flying into the sun and is a very easy
and straitforward solution.
Jerry
--- Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
> I am waiting on a quote from Rosen on a group buy
> for their visors. My
> opinion is that the Cirrus lense (8x15.5") is the
> right lense and a
> combination of the Cessna 310 and the Piper base is
> the way to go. They are
> going to quote me on the combination soon,
> hopefully. I told them that I
> estimated a group buy of 50 sets, which hopefully
> won't be too far off. The
> only thing I'm not crazy about is the gap (as seen
> in the attached picture)
> between the base and the curved portion of the door
> channel. For those who
> are not finished yet, this would be an easy fix,
> just filling that with flox
> as was mentioned in another post, but for those with
> a finished cabin top,
> this will be more difficult, and many will probably
> end up just putting it
> in an leaving the gap, which would not make a big
> structural difference
> MAYBE, but would certainly be weaker and more likely
> to break with continued
> use. I am still thinking about having the CNC shop
> make the "perfect base"
> is such is possible. I will let you know what I
> find out. Also, for those
> who purchased a visor at SNF, please post pictures
> and dimensions of your
> mount.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
> jesse@saintaviation.com
>
> www.saintaviation.com
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 33
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment |
Well, since we're making this official and Tim has already reposted, I guess
I will too.
1. I think with the panel that we have the answer to this one would be COST
(Dynon FlightDEK, TruTrak ADI, Garmin GMA340, GNS430, SL40, GTX327, GI106A,
GPS396 and TruTrak Sorcerer). Everything is a nice huge step up from the
historical 6-pack with dual nav radios and so on. The IFR GPS is a very
solid platform for today's flying, so getting all of the flight instruments
consolidated onto a single screen and adding all of the engine monitoring
equipment makes for nice flying.
2. I can't think of anything I would change. The system keeps getting
better with software updates, but I would say that having the Dynon heated
Pitot would be nice add-on to get the AOA information, but that wasn't
available until very recently.
3. How much did it cost (a very big part of the equation for some)?
$30,000.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment
Yes, it may be too broad a topic for this list to get into in detail, but it
might be possible for those who are flying and have flown their systems IFR
to do the following:
1. What is the one thing you have discovered about your system that is an
absolute joy and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you bought
what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what you did);
2. Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have found that
you do not like about your system, either because something is lacking or
because the implementation could have been better.
For example, I'm just beginning to understand what "fully integrated" means
and why it might be worthwhile to consider, even though such systems are
rather spendy.
John (in buildus interruptus purgatory) Jessen
#40328
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment
Jack,
Welcome to the agony of the EFIS decision process. ;) I think you have a
mixed-bag in your question. On one hand, there are systems in those that
you listed that definitely have some limitations as to how they present info
or how well they drive autopilots to do approaches, but on the other hand, I
think a majority of them would fly an ILS very nicely.
That said, how well you can display an CDI for flying an ILS is just a tiny
fraction of the many features that you need to compare, and educating
yourself as to the overall features/advantages/benefits of each system can
be one of the hardest things to do. I will say it again, as I've said
before....if someone is seriously considering buying an EFIS, especially for
IFR flight, you will do yourself a big favor and the money will be well
spent if you will just take the time to do a demo flight with a flying
system. Not a demo software app, but a real demo flight, where you can push
buttons and ask questions.
Each of the vendors below has progressed in the past 1-2 years, with new
equipment or new features being added.
They just keep getting nicer, as we're seeing with the AFS system adding
weather, and the Dynon adding more NAV functions, the GRT's screens that are
soon to come, and more. Finding the right EFIS for you though, will still
be as hard of a decision as ever, as no matter how you slice it, EVERY
system has a list of negatives that go along with it's list of positives.
The subject gets into too much depth to do in one email, and unless you're
asking about one function in particular, it's just going to start a flurry
of "mine is best" emails if you ask the list to tell you what to decide. In
the end, I believe the best way to decide is to read all of the feature
lists, and develop your own feature requirements. Then find a match, and
toss out all the other choices. Once you make it that far, you probably
have a short list, and you should contact people to try to get a demo flight
with the unit. Also, unless you have a lot of trust, buy a unit based on
the feature set that it has at the time you spend your money. Often times
the vendors will pre-sell these features that really don't exist for months
or even years afterwards in production.
Most of the major players in the EFIS market are doing a good job at making
strides in product improvement, and depending on your other radio and
instrument choices, and your feature requirements, it could be very possible
to meet your goals without totally smashing your budget.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Phillips, Jack wrote:
> --> <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
>
> OK, group. I'm going to expose my ignorance about avionics. I went
> down to SNF with my primary goal being learning about the various
> options for EFIS. What I found was a bewildering array of choices at
> prices ranging from $3,000 to $50,000.
>
> Without knowing much about the units and their capabilities, I went to
> the following vendors, Dynon, Chelton, Avidyne, Grand Rapids
> Technology (GRT), AFS, and Blue Mountain. I asked each of them to
> show me how an ILS approach would look on their system. Since I'm
> instrument rated and learned to fly ILS approaches using convential
> VOR/GS equipement, I wanted to see how much better the new technology
would work.
>
> What I found was that no one system has everything I want. Except for
> GRT, every system I looked at either didn't have a suitable demo
> configured to show an ILS approach (what are they thinking?), or they
> could do it, but the Localizer just showed as a small pip on the
> bottom of the screen, with the Glideslope an equally small pip on the
> side of the screen.
>
> When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the
> localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with
> a "doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross. In
> addition I want airspeed (or AOA), altitude and an artifical horizon.
> The GRT system did this very well. At around $13,000 for a two panel
> system it is also at about the upper end of what I can afford to pay
> (I liked the Chelton and Avidyne systems, but at $31,000 and $50,000
> respectively, they are out of my price range). I talked with a couple
> of RV-10 builders at the Van's tent and they mostly seemed to favor
> either the GRT system or the Dynon.
>
> I did like the engine monitor panel that AFS provides, like Van's put
> on N410RV. I wonder how well it would work to have their engine panel
> with GRT's EFIS?
>
> At the risk of starting a huge thread, I would like to see a
> discussion of the strong points and weak points of the systems that
> are in my limited price range, which includes AFS, Dynon, Blue Mountain
and GRT.
> Anyone have actual flying experience (including actual instrument
> approaches) that they would like to share?
>
> Jack Phillips
> #40610
> Raleigh, NC
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rosen Visors |
I flew to SNF in a Cessna 310 with Rosen visors and they are a quality
piece. I liked the feature on the 310 version where the lens would slide
across by loosening a thumb screw. I noticed on one of your pictures
that the Cirrus lens had that feature, but I do not see that feature in
the information on the Rosen site. What are you planning? do you think
the 310 setup is just too large, too expensive or too square?
As for a machined mount, I would think that there is a lot or
variability in that area depending on how much shaping and sanding you
do on the cabin top. I would think the flox build up would be the best
way to go.
Larry Rosen
(no relation to Rosen visors)
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> I am waiting on a quote from Rosen on a group buy for their visors. My
> opinion is that the Cirrus lense (8x15.5) is the right lense and a
> combination of the Cessna 310 and the Piper base is the way to go.
> They are going to quote me on the combination soon, hopefully. I told
> them that I estimated a group buy of 50 sets, which hopefully wont be
> too far off. The only thing Im not crazy about is the gap (as seen in
> the attached picture) between the base and the curved portion of the
> door channel. For those who are not finished yet, this would be an
> easy fix, just filling that with flox as was mentioned in another
> post, but for those with a finished cabin top, this will be more
> difficult, and many will probably end up just putting it in an leaving
> the gap, which would not make a big structural difference MAYBE, but
> would certainly be weaker and more likely to break with continued use.
> I am still thinking about having the CNC shop make the perfect base
> is such is possible. I will let you know what I find out. Also, for
> those who purchased a visor at SNF, please post pictures and
> dimensions of your mount.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
> jesse@saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
>
> www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com>
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment |
Thanks for this and all the other responses on this issue. I'm sure I
can learn to fly a different system, and really look forward to my
"scan" being limited to one nice easy to ready screen, rather than the
usual "6-pack", but until I try it I don't know which one I would like
best, and hate to make a multi-thousand dollar mistake. There has
already been some useful discussion on this subject. Thanks to all who
have replied.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
GRANSCOTT@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment
In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:34:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com writes:
When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is
the
localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines,
with a
"doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross.
Jack,
I've flown the G 1000 several times in actual...and the presentation for
the new equipment is not going to be like steam guages...you've got to
learn a new system. You can hand fly the G 1000 down the slope using
the tapes or one can monitor the approach on the auto pilot as you
control pitch and power. As far as I know, no one is replicating a
steam guage face in modern avionics, not the airlines, corp or ga...Once
you get with the tapes and an EFIS they are all in one place right
infront of you...you don't need to scan side to side and up and
down...it's all bacially straight a head of you...and if you want to
glance at the MFD you can see how you are progressing...the Chilton will
even give you a wind correction angle to fly on the EFIS...I don't see
how it can be any simpler...some of us ol' dogs got to learn new tricks.
P
_____
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<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
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Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Bewilderment |
This reply was one I wrote off-list accidently to someone
who responded to me, but I figured I'd post it on-list
in case someone cared.
----
Yes, on that first post I was very much trying not to make it a
specific reply on MY choice, because there are many very nice
EFIS players in the market these days. I'm impressed with
the AFS stuff, for example. There is no one system that will
satisfy any person. As you can tell, I like the Chelton, Jesse
plugs the Dynon, Russ loves his GRT, Deems loves the OP. Everyone
has very valid reason why they like theirs. To me, pricing
is not one of the major decision points, but features are. As
you saw in Jesse's post, a very suitable IFR panel can be put
together even if "COST" is your major factor. But, each and every
system you have to choose from does have a very different set of
features/advantages/benefits, and there's a lot of personal
choice in there. I myself would have a hard time with some
of the compromises had I gone another route, although those
compromises wouldn't necessarily be as large if I stuck with
the higher-end systems like G900's or OP Tech. Besides that,
the there are other things such as the G900's ease of wiring
that other systems can hardly touch. There is no one-size-fits-all
in the EFIS world. For instance, living in the mountainous
West, Terrain on the PFD would be a very big benefit.
Finding your wants and needs is all part of the process.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 37
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Thanks for the feedback. In regards to your questions, I think the 310
visor is all 3 (too large, too expensive and too square). The Cirrus visor
is more rounded (fitting the style of the plane), plenty big IMHO for both
the Cirrus and the RV-10, and cheaper (for whatever reason) than the 310
visor. I probably won't hear back until later this week at the earliest on
the price, but I hope to have it come in close to the show special price for
the setup that David got.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Visors
I flew to SNF in a Cessna 310 with Rosen visors and they are a quality
piece. I liked the feature on the 310 version where the lens would slide
across by loosening a thumb screw. I noticed on one of your pictures
that the Cirrus lens had that feature, but I do not see that feature in
the information on the Rosen site. What are you planning? do you think
the 310 setup is just too large, too expensive or too square?
As for a machined mount, I would think that there is a lot or
variability in that area depending on how much shaping and sanding you
do on the cabin top. I would think the flox build up would be the best
way to go.
Larry Rosen
(no relation to Rosen visors)
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> I am waiting on a quote from Rosen on a group buy for their visors. My
> opinion is that the Cirrus lense (8x15.5") is the right lense and a
> combination of the Cessna 310 and the Piper base is the way to go.
> They are going to quote me on the combination soon, hopefully. I told
> them that I estimated a group buy of 50 sets, which hopefully won't be
> too far off. The only thing I'm not crazy about is the gap (as seen in
> the attached picture) between the base and the curved portion of the
> door channel. For those who are not finished yet, this would be an
> easy fix, just filling that with flox as was mentioned in another
> post, but for those with a finished cabin top, this will be more
> difficult, and many will probably end up just putting it in an leaving
> the gap, which would not make a big structural difference MAYBE, but
> would certainly be weaker and more likely to break with continued use.
> I am still thinking about having the CNC shop make the "perfect base"
> is such is possible. I will let you know what I find out. Also, for
> those who purchased a visor at SNF, please post pictures and
> dimensions of your mount.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
> jesse@saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
>
> www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com>
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Mount Question |
Ahhh.....
Thanks, I had not considered the different angles.
I will get the different engine mounts.
Thanks, Jim C
Do Not Archive.
===========================================================
From: "Kevin Belue" <kdbelue@charter.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine Mount Question
Jim,
Been there, done that - won't work. The large mounts are at a different
angle (not the same dynafocal angle), so it won't work with Van's engine
mount. You have to get the correct mounting ears and the rubber mounts
specified by Van or build another engine mount.
Kevin Belue
RV-6A flying
RV-10 finish kit
----- Original Message -----
From: <jim@CombsFive.Com>
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:58 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Engine Mount Question
>
> I have an IO-540-C4B5 which has the large mounting holes. Has anyone
> considered using different "Lord" mounts for the large mounting holes vs
> changing the mounts on the engine to the D4A5 configuration.
>
> I have looked and I can purchase the "Lord" mounts for the Piper Aztec.
>
> Or should I just go ahead and replace the C4B5 mounts with the "Correct"
> ones?
>
> Just curious, I don't know a lot about the "lord" mounts.
>
> Jim C
> N312F
> 40192 - Finish Kit.
>
> Ready and waiting for the AF-3500EE!
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
>
===========================================================
Message 39
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
Tim,
I'm considering a Chelton (dual sport) as I am sold on the concepts of
synthetic vision, flight path/vector, dynamic glide range, etc, and on the
stability of Chelton in the market place (D2A fiasco not withstanding).
But, I want to make sure I'm not surprised by it's quirks/limitations.
1. Am I right that it doesn't sync flight plans with the 480? Where do you
enter you flight plans, amendments, and approach selections - directly on
the Chelton only? If so, why have a 480 vs a 430 or vs a bare bones GPS-155
(basic IFR GPS backup) and an SL30? Do you EVER use ANY of the flight
planning features of the 480?
2. My understanding is that the 480 allows Victor Airway flight planning. I
believe that is not available when planning on the Cheltons - correct?
3. Your earlier post mentioned a potential shortage of ARINC inputs? I'm
perhaps a bit ignorant of what's handled via RS232 vs Arinc? etc. Is there
any insight/education you can offer here? How is TIS wired to the Chelton?
How is a Ryan TCAD wired to a Chelton? How does the Chelton connect to a TT
A/P?, etc
4. If I have an SL30 and a 480 how do I decide which radio's NAV signal is
used for NAV indications on a) the Chelton, b) the autopilot (Sorcerer), c)
a single backup CDI? Does the Chelton accept dual NAV feeds? Or do I need
external switches for that - or is it common to hardwire specific radios to
each i.e. #1 480 to the Chelton and Sorcerer and #2 SL30 to backup CDI?
5. Am I correct that the only WX available on the Chelton is WSI (not XM)?
6. It seems a drawback of many/most/all of the EFIS systems is their
in-capability to display a std approach chart. While the approach may be
built-into the DB's for inclusion to the GPS flight plan, I'm still "stuck"
on having the std plate view available in the cockpit - so I can
see/follow/check it and for min altitudes for circling approaches etc - or
to easily look up the ILS/LOC freq. It seems ironic that the info that is
being made available for free by the Gov (terps PDF's), is not readily
available on anything (except perhaps a laptop in the copilot seat). JEPP
View on the GMX200 is perhaps the best alternative - but so much for the gov
PDF's.
7. Is there any reason (to your knowledge) to be considering a GMX200 with a
Chelton (dual sport) setup. If I had a Chelton dual sport, it seems the
GMX200 is just a "nicer" moving map - more surface detail, profile view,
etc.
8. One of Garmin's G900 selling points/questions is. "Wonder why few/none of
the popular certified GA companies aren't using CFS (which is certified)."
Having Cessna, Piper, Cirrus, Columbia, Diamond, Mooney, etc all behind
Garmin is perhaps a compelling argument to go with Garmin and wait for them
to "catch-up" on synthetic vision. Thoughts/comments?
Sorry for all the "rookie" questions.
Rick
Message 40
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
If you want plates in the panel, then you might consider looking into
trueflight's software and possibly either a Flight Cheetah or similar system
to display weather and charts. The nice thing there is that the updates for
all map data and approach plates is $200/year. Another option would be a
pocket PC with anywhere plates on it or something like that. The updates
are a little bit more, but not even approaching anywhere near the cost of
Jepp plates. It's kinda nice to know you have plates for everywhere no
matter where you are going or where you want to divert to.
The problem with going Garmin and waiting for them to "catch up" is that
they have almost no incentive to catch up. They have such a huge market
share, and don't seem to stand much risk of losing it, that they can keep
spitting out the same stuff at the same or higher price and the market just
bucks up and deals with it. Look how long it took to get WAAS on the 430
and 530, and how much it costs. Don't expect Garmin to jump on new things
very fast. They got into the weather business because they knew they needed
something for that to keep their handheld market, but have you tried to read
a 396 screen in sunlight? It reflects like a mirror. Can't see a thing in
the sunlight, hardly, although that is the time when you least need to see
the weather also, in most cases.
I will still go Garmin for my stack, but that's because everybody knows how
to use them, which is worth a lot.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rtitsworth
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions
Tim,
I'm considering a Chelton (dual sport) as I am sold on the concepts of
synthetic vision, flight path/vector, dynamic glide range, etc, and on the
stability of Chelton in the market place (D2A fiasco not withstanding).
But, I want to make sure I'm not surprised by it's quirks/limitations.
1. Am I right that it doesn't sync flight plans with the 480? Where do you
enter you flight plans, amendments, and approach selections - directly on
the Chelton only? If so, why have a 480 vs a 430 or vs a bare bones GPS-155
(basic IFR GPS backup) and an SL30? Do you EVER use ANY of the flight
planning features of the 480?
2. My understanding is that the 480 allows Victor Airway flight planning. I
believe that is not available when planning on the Cheltons - correct?
3. Your earlier post mentioned a potential shortage of ARINC inputs? I'm
perhaps a bit ignorant of what's handled via RS232 vs Arinc? etc. Is there
any insight/education you can offer here? How is TIS wired to the Chelton?
How is a Ryan TCAD wired to a Chelton? How does the Chelton connect to a TT
A/P?, etc
4. If I have an SL30 and a 480 how do I decide which radio's NAV signal is
used for NAV indications on a) the Chelton, b) the autopilot (Sorcerer), c)
a single backup CDI? Does the Chelton accept dual NAV feeds? Or do I need
external switches for that - or is it common to hardwire specific radios to
each i.e. #1 480 to the Chelton and Sorcerer and #2 SL30 to backup CDI?
5. Am I correct that the only WX available on the Chelton is WSI (not XM)?
6. It seems a drawback of many/most/all of the EFIS systems is their
in-capability to display a std approach chart. While the approach may be
built-into the DB's for inclusion to the GPS flight plan, I'm still "stuck"
on having the std plate view available in the cockpit - so I can
see/follow/check it and for min altitudes for circling approaches etc - or
to easily look up the ILS/LOC freq. It seems ironic that the info that is
being made available for free by the Gov (terps PDF's), is not readily
available on anything (except perhaps a laptop in the copilot seat). JEPP
View on the GMX200 is perhaps the best alternative - but so much for the gov
PDF's.
7. Is there any reason (to your knowledge) to be considering a GMX200 with a
Chelton (dual sport) setup. If I had a Chelton dual sport, it seems the
GMX200 is just a "nicer" moving map - more surface detail, profile view,
etc.
8. One of Garmin's G900 selling points/questions is. "Wonder why few/none of
the popular certified GA companies aren't using CFS (which is certified)."
Having Cessna, Piper, Cirrus, Columbia, Diamond, Mooney, etc all behind
Garmin is perhaps a compelling argument to go with Garmin and wait for them
to "catch-up" on synthetic vision. Thoughts/comments?
Sorry for all the "rookie" questions.
Rick
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Mount Question |
You should have seem my face when I tried to mount the Aztec engine on N256H
with the wrong ears. Man, it got close, and I had never mounted an engine
before, so I couldn't figure out what the problem was, until I realized that
something had to be wrong because the Lord mounts didn't fit and the angle
seemed to be wrong. I think that's when the engine mount ear issue first
came to the list. I went into scramble mode and found a used set of ears.
330 hours later and they seem to be holding up just fine.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim@combsfive.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Re: RV10-List: Engine Mount Question
Ahhh.....
Thanks, I had not considered the different angles.
I will get the different engine mounts.
Thanks, Jim C
Do Not Archive.
===========================================================
From: "Kevin Belue" <kdbelue@charter.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine Mount Question
Jim,
Been there, done that - won't work. The large mounts are at a different
angle (not the same dynafocal angle), so it won't work with Van's engine
mount. You have to get the correct mounting ears and the rubber mounts
specified by Van or build another engine mount.
Kevin Belue
RV-6A flying
RV-10 finish kit
----- Original Message -----
From: <jim@CombsFive.Com>
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:58 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Engine Mount Question
>
> I have an IO-540-C4B5 which has the large mounting holes. Has anyone
> considered using different "Lord" mounts for the large mounting holes vs
> changing the mounts on the engine to the D4A5 configuration.
>
> I have looked and I can purchase the "Lord" mounts for the Piper Aztec.
>
> Or should I just go ahead and replace the C4B5 mounts with the "Correct"
> ones?
>
> Just curious, I don't know a lot about the "lord" mounts.
>
> Jim C
> N312F
> 40192 - Finish Kit.
>
> Ready and waiting for the AF-3500EE!
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
>
===========================================================
Message 42
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| Subject: | EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
Thanks!
My (personal) opinion is the pocket plates are pretty small when it comes to
actually trying to read them in real IMC conditions/workloads (especially
single pilot).
Your Garmin (little motivation) view is interesting/plausible. The
430W/530W upgrade delays certainly were a black eye for them. It wouldn't
be hard to imagine a similar issue with the G1000/G900's and synthetic
vision. If it's "just software" why isn't it already there in the first
place?
Rick
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions
If you want plates in the panel, then you might consider looking into
trueflight's software and possibly either a Flight Cheetah or similar system
to display weather and charts. The nice thing there is that the updates for
all map data and approach plates is $200/year. Another option would be a
pocket PC with anywhere plates on it or something like that. The updates
are a little bit more, but not even approaching anywhere near the cost of
Jepp plates. It's kinda nice to know you have plates for everywhere no
matter where you are going or where you want to divert to.
The problem with going Garmin and waiting for them to "catch up" is that
they have almost no incentive to catch up. They have such a huge market
share, and don't seem to stand much risk of losing it, that they can keep
spitting out the same stuff at the same or higher price and the market just
bucks up and deals with it. Look how long it took to get WAAS on the 430
and 530, and how much it costs. Don't expect Garmin to jump on new things
very fast. They got into the weather business because they knew they needed
something for that to keep their handheld market, but have you tried to read
a 396 screen in sunlight? It reflects like a mirror. Can't see a thing in
the sunlight, hardly, although that is the time when you least need to see
the weather also, in most cases.
I will still go Garmin for my stack, but that's because everybody knows how
to use them, which is worth a lot.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rtitsworth
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions
Tim,
I'm considering a Chelton (dual sport) as I am sold on the concepts of
synthetic vision, flight path/vector, dynamic glide range, etc, and on the
stability of Chelton in the market place (D2A fiasco not withstanding).
But, I want to make sure I'm not surprised by it's quirks/limitations.
1. Am I right that it doesn't sync flight plans with the 480? Where do you
enter you flight plans, amendments, and approach selections - directly on
the Chelton only? If so, why have a 480 vs a 430 or vs a bare bones GPS-155
(basic IFR GPS backup) and an SL30? Do you EVER use ANY of the flight
planning features of the 480?
2. My understanding is that the 480 allows Victor Airway flight planning. I
believe that is not available when planning on the Cheltons - correct?
3. Your earlier post mentioned a potential shortage of ARINC inputs? I'm
perhaps a bit ignorant of what's handled via RS232 vs Arinc? etc. Is there
any insight/education you can offer here? How is TIS wired to the Chelton?
How is a Ryan TCAD wired to a Chelton? How does the Chelton connect to a TT
A/P?, etc
4. If I have an SL30 and a 480 how do I decide which radio's NAV signal is
used for NAV indications on a) the Chelton, b) the autopilot (Sorcerer), c)
a single backup CDI? Does the Chelton accept dual NAV feeds? Or do I need
external switches for that - or is it common to hardwire specific radios to
each i.e. #1 480 to the Chelton and Sorcerer and #2 SL30 to backup CDI?
5. Am I correct that the only WX available on the Chelton is WSI (not XM)?
6. It seems a drawback of many/most/all of the EFIS systems is their
in-capability to display a std approach chart. While the approach may be
built-into the DB's for inclusion to the GPS flight plan, I'm still "stuck"
on having the std plate view available in the cockpit - so I can
see/follow/check it and for min altitudes for circling approaches etc - or
to easily look up the ILS/LOC freq. It seems ironic that the info that is
being made available for free by the Gov (terps PDF's), is not readily
available on anything (except perhaps a laptop in the copilot seat). JEPP
View on the GMX200 is perhaps the best alternative - but so much for the gov
PDF's.
7. Is there any reason (to your knowledge) to be considering a GMX200 with a
Chelton (dual sport) setup. If I had a Chelton dual sport, it seems the
GMX200 is just a "nicer" moving map - more surface detail, profile view,
etc.
8. One of Garmin's G900 selling points/questions is. "Wonder why few/none of
the popular certified GA companies aren't using CFS (which is certified)."
Having Cessna, Piper, Cirrus, Columbia, Diamond, Mooney, etc all behind
Garmin is perhaps a compelling argument to go with Garmin and wait for them
to "catch-up" on synthetic vision. Thoughts/comments?
Sorry for all the "rookie" questions.
Rick
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
Sorry if this reply seems to be a bandwidth waster to some. If you have
no interest in the reply, just delete now.
Rick, I'll reply inline so I can go step by step through it.
rtitsworth wrote:
> Tim,
> I'm considering a Chelton (dual sport) as I am sold on the concepts of
> synthetic vision, flight path/vector, dynamic glide range, etc, and on
> the stability of Chelton in the market place (D2A fiasco not
> withstanding). But, I want to make sure I'm not surprised by it's
> quirks/limitations.
>
> 1. Am I right that it doesnt sync flight plans with the 480? Where do
> you enter you flight plans, amendments, and approach selections -
> directly on the Chelton only? If so, why have a 480 vs a 430 or vs a
> bare bones GPS-155 (basic IFR GPS backup) and an SL30? Do you EVER use
> ANY of the flight planning features of the 480?
Yes, sync'ing flight plans is not something that it can do. You'd have
to enter the flight plan into the 480 if you want to have it loaded.
You do all of your flight plan entry, your amendments, and approach
selection directly into the Chelton. It has a very powerful and easy
to use flight planning system. For me, it was pretty intuitive. That
said, I'd highly recommend for anyone SERIOUSLY interested in the system
that they read Keith Thomassen's user guide. He shows some of the
power and the features and how to use them, right in the book. It's
one of those things that I finally just got less than a month ago, and
after reading it, I learned even more. It's a great thing that would
push many people over the edge on their decision too, once you see
some of the features it has in use. It's very easy to quickly amend
or reroute, or for that matter do a pop-up approach in an emergency.
You can load it in seconds if you have to.
As for why having the 480/430 or other....I wasn't going to keep myself
on a tight budget while building a dream machine, so since I was going
to spend money on another nav/com, and another GPS (and the 480 gave
me WAAS LPV approaches too), and the price was well under a 530, and
it fit in the panel, I decided not to short myself and just get that.
You ask if I EVER use any of the flight planning features of the 480...
well, actually, I never have and BIG reason to, so I rarely have. It's
been my personal assignment for 2007....to better learn that box. So,
I bought the manual that Keith made for that box now too, and I'm
1/2 way through it. Regardless of its shortcomings in regards to
integrating data with the CFS, it's a very powerful box. It would
give me the ability to fly most any approach, even with full EFIS
failure. In the past I've loaded and watched flight plans go by on
the 480, but it was more just to see if I could do it....not because
I had a big reason to. The CFS flight planner is easier to use,
and it rivals the 480's abilities too.
>
> 2. My understanding is that the 480 allows Victor Airway flight
> planning. I believe that is not available when planning on the Cheltons
> correct?
>
No, that's not correct. On the CFS (you could see this in Keith's
guide on page 6 if you get it) it shows how to file using airways.
You basically can enter your airway just like you'd enter a waypoint
on the flightplan, and when you enter an airway, it will ask you
for an endpoint along that airway....so you just choose the endpoint
and can then hop from there to either another airway or direct to, or
whatever you want to do. Also, one of the cool features for those
who get WSI too, is that on the flight planning page it actually
displays weather too, so you can enter your plan, route your plan
around the weather, and then go call ATC and file it. When you
see the flight planning page in action, you'll see it's MUCH nicer
than a 430 or 480 with that much screen real-estate and color
available...it makes things very clear. If a user was willing
to leave their backup plan as flying somewhere for an ILS in case
of EFIS failure, you really have no need at all for a 430 or
480....and a SL-30 would do just fine. Also, with the autopilot,
if you fly the CFS, you don't really NEED a sorcerer, so you'll
save a few thousand there. Where the sorcerer adds function is
that it will allow you to fly some approaches with something like
a 430, if you have a full EFIS failure. The GNS480 though also
integrates to the DFIIVSGV much like the CFS, so except for
ILS type approaches, you're really not missing much if you skip
the sorcerer.
>
>
> 3. Your earlier post mentioned a potential shortage of ARINC inputs?
> I'm perhaps a bit ignorant of what's handled via RS232 vs Arinc? etc.
> Is there any insight/education you can offer here? How is TIS wired to
> the Chelton? How is a Ryan TCAD wired to a Chelton? How does the
> Chelton connect to a TT A/P?, etc
>
I can speak for the GTX330 for TIS...that's wired by using an ARINC to
serial converter. The ARINC comes out of the 330 and gets converted
to serial for the CFS. The converter box is around $1200, and it adds
one ARINC Tx circuit, and 2 ARINC Rx circuits to the Chelton Sport.
The Pro already has more ARINC ports than the Sport. If you have that
converter box, you really don't need more ports at all, but you will
want that converter if you have a 330 for TIS. The Ryan TCAD, from
what I understand, is wired RS-232, so that should need no extras,
but I haven't wired one to give verification of that. The chelton talks
to the TT AP using ARINC and RS-232 both. The ARINC is required for
GPSV functionality, and the RS-232 provides basic GPS track info
and things like that, so you can do GPSS too. The only fly in that
ointment is that the TT AP only can do low speed ARINC, unless there
is something they don't say in the manual....but that doesn't mean
it doesn't work fine. The shortage of ARINC inputs though, if you
have that converter, isn't really an issue....it's just that it
would be nice not to have to buy the converter. I don't know if
you'd need it or not if you had a pro system with a 330 transponder.
> 4. If I have an SL30 and a 480 how do I decide which radio's NAV signal
> is used for NAV indications on a) the Chelton, b) the autopilot
> (Sorcerer), c) a single backup CDI? Does the Chelton accept dual NAV
> feeds? Or do I need external switches for that - or is it common to
> hardwire specific radios to each i.e. #1 480 to the Chelton and Sorcerer
> and #2 SL30 to backup CDI?
>
I would use your SL30 as your #1 Nav/Com, because that's the one that
integrates best. You'll be able to display BOTH the active and standby
NAV indication from the SL30, so you don't really need a #2 NAV
to do things like triangulation. You can also monitor 2nd NAV and COM
signals on the 480, but not display them on the big screens. If you
then have the sorcerer, you would want to pull ARINC, Serial, and NAV
signals from the 480 to the TruTrak. If you use a DFIIVSGV, you'd
just pull ARINC and Serial. The single backup CDI if you add one would
just tie directly to the 480. For me, I've only used it on some
practice approaches, but I just like having that CDI in case I ever
actually wanted to use it. As for accepting dual NAV feeds, sure,
it could, but you'll already have that with the SL-30, so I don't
think you'd do more that that...and you don't need external switches.
As for your last sentence, I'd change that to: #1 NAV Radio (SL-30)
putting BOTH CDI's on the CFS, and #2 NAV Radio (480) putting NO
CDI's on the CFS, but just to the backup CDI. Your system (the 480)
would then truly be an independent backup.
>
> 5. Am I correct that the only WX available on the Chelton is WSI (not XM)?
>
Yes, other than the CFS actually can do ADS-B's free weather too, if
it's available in your area, and you have the Garmin GDL XXX (whatever)
box that is sold for ADS-B. But I've heard that even Garmin says
not to bother because ADS-B's free weather stinks in comparison to
what the commercial ones offer...very limited feature set. XM isn't
able to be displayed right now. Perhaps in the future, but
I'd just plan to go WSI because anything else would be hopeful
vaporware for some time, and may never happen. The WSI does work
very well though. I can't wait to see how it works when they swap
to Sirius.
>
> 6. It seems a drawback of many/most/all of the EFIS systems is their
> in-capability to display a std approach chart. While the approach may
> be built-into the DBs for inclusion to the GPS flight plan, Im still
> stuck on having the std plate view available in the cockpit - so I can
> see/follow/check it and for min altitudes for circling approaches etc
> or to easily look up the ILS/LOC freq. It seems ironic that the info
> that is being made available for free by the Gov (terps PDFs), is not
> readily available on anything (except perhaps a laptop in the copilot
> seat). JEPP View on the GMX200 is perhaps the best alternative but so
> much for the gov PDFs.
>
I'm 1/2 with you there, and 1/2 not. You're right, having a quick way
to display it would be nice...no disagreement there. But, I would
also not want it taking up my display all of the time during an
approach. Also, in general I actually think I prefer the smaller
screens of the CFS that allow you to locate them differently and have
more of them, to the larger screens on things like a G900, but the
larger screens would be nicer to display those charts. You're right
that it's nice to have the info available though. The info you need
is actually usually available on the CFS, so you can choose NRST - ILS
and get Freq's and stuff no problem, and actually also auto-fill them
into your SL-30. The other downside that so many people forget about
the Chart options on their EFIS is that not only is it an expensive
option, but it's an expensive option that you have to subscribe to.
OUCH! Don't get me started on the "Free" data from the gov't vs. the
super-high-priced Jepp stuff!! It's just WAY too expensive to pay
for all sorts of databases! In general, you could VERY easily fly
most any approach on the CFS without having a paper or electronic
chart in front of you, and you'd have much of the info you'd want.
The things that are lacking are things like the time in seconds for
the approach using Categories A, B, C.... and so on. But with full
vertical guidance on the approach, with stepdowns, you really have
everything you need to survive without a chart. But, that's not to
say I'd ever want to go WITHOUT a chart. What works for me is twofold.
#1, I print paper charts before major trips, of at least a couple
of main approaches at my planned stops. These are your down and dirty
backups, and hey, it's just nice to have paper sometimes so you
can not push buttons, can fold it to a kneeboard, and so you can
leave your EFIS screens set up the way you want during an approach
and not screw with them. Then, #2, I've also bought Golden Eagle
Chart Case Express (and use Golden Eagle's free Flight Prep for
flight planning) on my motion tablet PC. Now THAT is some pretty
cool software! It allows me to do a couple things....A) Take my
tablet on vacations to save weight, and use at the hotel as a PC
for email, and also for flight planning, and B) to use in the cockpit
for not only ALL of my charts, both IFR and VFR, and approaches, but
as a backup GPS. With my little gum packaged sized Bluetooth GPS,
I get full track overlays on all my charts, even Low-alt Enroute,
and on the approach charts. So before the approach, I boot it
up, it has huge buttons to hit with the pen to load the approach,
and then I look at the approach chart and write the critical
data on my kneeboard sheet. Then, I turn the tablet over to
my wife who just watches the approach on that occasionally. Again,
you can see it very well on the CFS screens, so at that point it's
not really needed, but it's pretty cool to see in action. And,
being a tablet, you can put it where you want it, even in the back
seat for the passengers to monitor if you want. The kids use the
tablet to watch our track where we are sometimes. The kicker is,
for ALL of the charts in the US, the price easily beats trying to
buy sectionals, L-A Enroute, and approach plates, plus you get
WAC's and others. So, even if you didn't have an updated database,
you still have all your updated charts and can do what you want.
It's handy for me anyway. Sorry that was such a long topic, but, just
don't forget to add in the cost of the ChartView option and ask
about the subscription price on the charts, if you get it on an
EFIS. If a company did it all with free data, it wouldn't be so
bad, but that's an option that I think catches peoples attention
initially until they realize the cost involved. Database updates
to be legal (and you DO want to be legal, right?) aren't a cheap
thing...and in fact can make WSI weather look like a bargain.
Even paper chart subscriptions add up to hundreds of dollars
a year for IFR/VFR/Approach capability.
>
> 7. Is there any reason (to your knowledge) to be considering a GMX200
> with a Chelton (dual sport) setup. If I had a Chelton dual sport, it
> seems the GMX200 is just a nicer moving map more surface detail,
> profile view, etc.
>
No, if you're getting a CFS, you I would skip the GMX200. It's an
expensive, but sweet and powerful box, but adding the options to your
CFS will be far cheaper than buying a GMX200 and adding the options
there. You're right that the map itself looks nicer on the GMX200...I
won't kid you there, but the CFS does a great job with it, and one of
the reasons the detail isn't there is to declutter. As you ascend,
it declutters obstructions, terrain, and more, just to give you
a more manageable screen. The CFS even has ways to show where radar
coverage is available, without making it a cluttered mess (using
brighter and darker areas). My original panel designs had multiple
GRT screens and an MX-20 with all the options. It was the options
and the costs of going that route that got so high. For those on
a budget, you can EASILY beat the CFS and many others in price, but
when you start to load up on the higher-end features, the amount of
"stuff" you get integrated onto a CFS MFD starts to make it very
cost effective against the other top systems. The question is, do
you really want the capabilities or not. You can fly IFR with a 6-pack,
so you can do it with a far less capable system too...but, some of
these features also add huge amounts of safety. Just read this
issue of Flying mag on Richard Collins's analysis of some Christmas
flying accidents....when I read that, my thought was, "man, with
the screens I'm flying, those same accidents would be pretty darn
hard to have happen unless you had some equipment failure." There's
a LOT helpful data there.
> 8. One of Garmins G900 selling points/questions is Wonder why
> few/none of the popular certified GA companies arent using CFS (which
> is certified). Having Cessna, Piper, Cirrus, Columbia, Diamond,
> Mooney, etc all behind Garmin is perhaps a compelling argument to go
> with Garmin and wait for them to catch-up on synthetic vision.
> Thoughts/comments?
>
Well, for one thing, Garmin is like the Microsoft of the avionics
market. They are very hard for anyone to compete with. In fact, I'd
say that if they ever stuck their nose into the low or mid-end EFIS
market, they'd probably clobber ALL of the low and mid systems right
out of the marketplace. Second, CFS is not at all good at trying to
price their systems into a market. They price them based on their own
formulas. Unfortunately, it seems that means the price is on the higher
side. If you price a certified CFS system, you'll find it isn't cheap
at all. Then, consider the bones in the form of pricing discounts
that Garmin would be able to throw a major airplane manufacturer. Do
you think it's possible Garmin gives a discount to the companies that
agree to stick in their systems? If you've ever heard any info on
the pricing of Garmin systems, I think you'd belive so. I'm not at
all saying it's a bad system, but, companies make their decisions based
heavily on financial reasons, so I'd bet that's a big factor. Also,
I'd bet that's part of why you see a decline in the Avidyne stuff
in recent days...and why Avidyne is starting to think about the low
end market a bit more. IMHO, Avidyne makes a better, sweeter display
than Garmin, but, it seems like they also have trouble competing.
To me, that quote you listed above is just a marketing quote, used
to put FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) into the buyer...it's a great
way to get them to 2nd guess what they're contemplating and just
go with the "safe" choice that everyone else does. CFS is certified,
but it's not a huge company....it's a small specialized company that's
a part of a huge company, and they'll live and die by their own products
successes and failures. To me, it seems that they've not done too bad,
since they have a well working product, that not only has a great
synthetic vision feature set, but managed to become certified while
doing it too. I agree, Garmin will probably catch up some day, but
how many approaches could you have in before that happens? I feel
so much safer flying in IMC over my old vacuum driven six-pack,
it's just ridiculous. I'm sure many people would say the same about
any EFIS system, but the Synthetic vision for some people could be
a huge benefit. I'm sure it'll be a popular future add-on for
most any EFIS vendor that wants to stay viable.
Sorry everyone that this was so long. Please understand that there are
people out there that do care to read it though. I get a lot of
personal emails, and since this was asked on-list, the reply may
benefit a few people who are interested other than just Rick.
Tim
> Sorry for all the rookie questions.
>
> Rick
>
> *
Message 44
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| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
I am suffering from "Echo Bruises". Ever heard a never-ending echo
until the Doppler effect reminds you it is the same chatter just
rehashed and will eventually subside with time.
Oh, how I long for effective archives.
Over? I mean Aye?
Okay... What are "Echo Bruises"? They are the phenomena that good
instructors and great pilot examiner experiences when after a few years,
a new applicant for instructor sends a student who then becomes a second
generation student (pursuing instructor) who then sends you a third
generation applicant some time later. The individual from the third
generation uses the exact same answer to same or similar question from
three generations or more prior. Very little learning took place,
everything was rote learning. Bad habits are reinforced and worse with
each generation of new applicant you think you are losing it (Your
mind). The examiner has to go back to work with new questions or learn
to adapt the review during licensing to a higher level of learning. You
conclude it was poor examination technique from the Examiner (yourself)
with both the first and second generation check ride which led to the
ROTE student applicants.
If each student would regularly question (that's healthy), find their
answer from two separate qualified sources and then understand the
underlying principles - their learning would become invaluable for their
entire lifetime. Hence, safer pilots, safer planes and lower rates for
"Builder Interruptus types". Each generation would move farther down
the path towards true wisdom. This is no reflection on builders in the
#500 or #600 series. I was just feeling familiar bruises from
conversations Long Ago as a pilot examiner. Attorneys advise... Just
give a YES or a NO and don't expound.
Few here want extemporaneous discussion. Now on to my typical rant.
Metallic additive in lacquer, enamel and poly paint is aluminum flake,
it comes in various sizes. Aluminum is a metallic material. Metallic
materials do not improve RF signal propagation except in the ground
plane. In pearl, it is another beast altogether. Carbon fiber in either
canopy construction, wingtips or fairings impedes RF signal propagation.
Metallic paint or a poor ground plane do the same things - negatively
influence the signal.
Now Mr. Sausen are you all happy? I am dreaming of OSH and those cold
beers I owe to last year's group.
Mr. Wellenzohn, your question is excellent and should not discourage the
use of metallics, something that was done to a close friend down in
Phoenix. Just properly tackle RF signal propagation techniques.
Kitplanes (the mag) has done some good work on the subject and it is
available in their archives. Most builders couldn't even explain how
their ELT antennae will work in a typical crash. Now is that learning?
John #600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
That has got to be the shortest answer I have ever seen from John! You
feeling ok? Got me a little worried! :-D
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
YES.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
<rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the
VOR in the wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
For what its worth, my assessment of the Cheltons is pretty much in line with
Tim's.
I am very happy with how it is mechanized (very simple to operate) and with a
lot of prior flying time in uncle Sam's best, these Cheltons come closest to
what the fast guys are using these days......
Only Garmin's I have in my plane are 2 SL-30's and the GTX 327.
grumpy
N184JM
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 46
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| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
As expected you have met and exceeded my expectations! Only a couple months to
go, see you then.
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
I am suffering from "Echo Bruises". Ever heard a never-ending echo
until the Doppler effect reminds you it is the same chatter just
rehashed and will eventually subside with time.
Oh, how I long for effective archives.
Over? I mean Aye?
Okay... What are "Echo Bruises"? They are the phenomena that good
instructors and great pilot examiner experiences when after a few years,
a new applicant for instructor sends a student who then becomes a second
generation student (pursuing instructor) who then sends you a third
generation applicant some time later. The individual from the third
generation uses the exact same answer to same or similar question from
three generations or more prior. Very little learning took place,
everything was rote learning. Bad habits are reinforced and worse with
each generation of new applicant you think you are losing it (Your
mind). The examiner has to go back to work with new questions or learn
to adapt the review during licensing to a higher level of learning. You
conclude it was poor examination technique from the Examiner (yourself)
with both the first and second generation check ride which led to the
ROTE student applicants.
If each student would regularly question (that's healthy), find their
answer from two separate qualified sources and then understand the
underlying principles - their learning would become invaluable for their
entire lifetime. Hence, safer pilots, safer planes and lower rates for
"Builder Interruptus types". Each generation would move farther down
the path towards true wisdom. This is no reflection on builders in the
#500 or #600 series. I was just feeling familiar bruises from
conversations Long Ago as a pilot examiner. Attorneys advise... Just
give a YES or a NO and don't expound.
Few here want extemporaneous discussion. Now on to my typical rant.
Metallic additive in lacquer, enamel and poly paint is aluminum flake,
it comes in various sizes. Aluminum is a metallic material. Metallic
materials do not improve RF signal propagation except in the ground
plane. In pearl, it is another beast altogether. Carbon fiber in either
canopy construction, wingtips or fairings impedes RF signal propagation.
Metallic paint or a poor ground plane do the same things - negatively
influence the signal.
Now Mr. Sausen are you all happy? I am dreaming of OSH and those cold
beers I owe to last year's group.
Mr. Wellenzohn, your question is excellent and should not discourage the
use of metallics, something that was done to a close friend down in
Phoenix. Just properly tackle RF signal propagation techniques.
Kitplanes (the mag) has done some good work on the subject and it is
available in their archives. Most builders couldn't even explain how
their ELT antennae will work in a typical crash. Now is that learning?
John #600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
That has got to be the shortest answer I have ever seen from John! You
feeling ok? Got me a little worried! :-D
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
YES.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
<rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the
VOR in the wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
Message 47
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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|
| Subject: | Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength? |
Aaaaah, he's back.... Welcome back, John. The list has been so (read easy to
understand/follow) without you.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
-----Original Message-----
From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Sent: 4/23/2007 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
I am suffering from "Echo Bruises". Ever heard a never-ending echo
until the Doppler effect reminds you it is the same chatter just
rehashed and will eventually subside with time.
Oh, how I long for effective archives.
Over? I mean Aye?
Okay... What are "Echo Bruises"? They are the phenomena that good
instructors and great pilot examiner experiences when after a few years,
a new applicant for instructor sends a student who then becomes a second
generation student (pursuing instructor) who then sends you a third
generation applicant some time later. The individual from the third
generation uses the exact same answer to same or similar question from
three generations or more prior. Very little learning took place,
everything was rote learning. Bad habits are reinforced and worse with
each generation of new applicant you think you are losing it (Your
mind). The examiner has to go back to work with new questions or learn
to adapt the review during licensing to a higher level of learning. You
conclude it was poor examination technique from the Examiner (yourself)
with both the first and second generation check ride which led to the
ROTE student applicants.
If each student would regularly question (that's healthy), find their
answer from two separate qualified sources and then understand the
underlying principles - their learning would become invaluable for their
entire lifetime. Hence, safer pilots, safer planes and lower rates for
"Builder Interruptus types". Each generation would move farther down
the path towards true wisdom. This is no reflection on builders in the
#500 or #600 series. I was just feeling familiar bruises from
conversations Long Ago as a pilot examiner. Attorneys advise... Just
give a YES or a NO and don't expound.
Few here want extemporaneous discussion. Now on to my typical rant.
Metallic additive in lacquer, enamel and poly paint is aluminum flake,
it comes in various sizes. Aluminum is a metallic material. Metallic
materials do not improve RF signal propagation except in the ground
plane. In pearl, it is another beast altogether. Carbon fiber in either
canopy construction, wingtips or fairings impedes RF signal propagation.
Metallic paint or a poor ground plane do the same things - negatively
influence the signal.
Now Mr. Sausen are you all happy? I am dreaming of OSH and those cold
beers I owe to last year's group.
Mr. Wellenzohn, your question is excellent and should not discourage the
use of metallics, something that was done to a close friend down in
Phoenix. Just properly tackle RF signal propagation techniques.
Kitplanes (the mag) has done some good work on the subject and it is
available in their archives. Most builders couldn't even explain how
their ELT antennae will work in a typical crash. Now is that learning?
John #600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
That has got to be the shortest answer I have ever seen from John! You
feeling ok? Got me a little worried! :-D
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
YES.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Metallic wingtip paint & VOR signal strength?
<rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
Hope that hasn't been discussed before.
Does a metallic paint influence the signal strength reception for the
VOR in the wing tips (Bob Archer antenna) in a negative way?
Thanks
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108576#108576
[truncated by sender]
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> Sorry if this reply seems to be a bandwidth waster to some. If you have
> no interest in the reply, just delete now.
>
Jack, thanks for opening the door here. Rick, thanks for detailing it
out. Tim, thanks for sharing the experience. Everyone, thanks for the
rest of the thread.
Bandwidth is rarely spent so well.
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Packing Lists |
Yup, once again my typing prowess has been uncovered 14-15. My # is 406
I got my emp kit 6/1/05. That's an average of 14-15 kits per month since
then.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Jim Beyer wrote:
> How about 14-15 RV-10 kits per month? Sure, they sell other models too.
>
> Here's my thought process... RV-10 builder numbers are in the 700's
> (Patrick is 40715...drop the 4 and the rest is a sequential number),
> the RV-10 has been out for ~36 months, that comes up to ~19 per
> month. I figured Deems has more precise numbers, so 14-15 is the same
> order of magnitude to 19. At least that's how I understood this whole
> builder number thing works. Lets ask the source...
>
> Deems, Did you mean to type "1415" per month or "14-15" RV-10 kits
> per month?
>
> -Jim
>
> do not archive
>
>
> On 4/23/07, * GRANSCOTT@aol.com <mailto:GRANSCOTT@aol.com>*
> <GRANSCOTT@aol.com <mailto:GRANSCOTT@aol.com>> wrote:
>
> Jim they could not live on 14-15 kits per month...
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 50
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| Subject: | Inside of cabin top. |
Now that my cabin top fit is as good as it is going to get, this coming
weekend will be spent working on the patching up the flaws and doing some
interior refinement.
I have seen the overhead consols which are used for ventilation and
lighting, but has anyone installed anything else up there. It seems that
there is a natural channel directly behind where the windscreen joins to the
top where a 1/4 flexible conduit could be run. I will be putting a few LED
dome lights up on the ceiling, but aside from the above mentioned, did
anyone else put in any switches or flap controls or anything else that one
could imagine (Apollo space craft look)
Jesse, Is there any picture that you could direct me to so that I could see
the proposed Overhead visor extension arm and where you are planning to
mount it. I may have missed an e-mail which showed some info.
It will be posible for me to make my own overheads out of hotwired foam and
glass and then pour acetone on the foam to melt it out before rejoining it
to the top, but I need someting to put in the compartments other than
sunglasses to make it worth the time.
Any suggestions. My creative mind wants to know.
JOhn G.
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Rosen Visors |
Don't get hung up on the size or shape of the plastic visor. I had
Rosen's in my Baron, and For $10 I went to TAP plastic and picked up
tinted plexi and cut it to my 'custom' shape. The mount and the
features are much more important.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> Thanks for the feedback. In regards to your questions, I think the 310
> visor is all 3 (too large, too expensive and too square). The Cirrus visor
> is more rounded (fitting the style of the plane), plenty big IMHO for both
> the Cirrus and the RV-10, and cheaper (for whatever reason) than the 310
> visor.
>
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Rosen Visors |
Deems, Deems, Deems,.,,,............
=2E...You cannot put $10 tinted Plexi in a DREAM plane. You need to go
to Sun N Fun, pay $300+ for this Tinted Plexi .............THEN convince
yourself you just got a great deal. Please don't crush those that feel
the need to spend mucho bucks for Novel items for their plane project f
or which they CLAIM they do not have a budget for.......................
(SARCASM).
I saw my friends Glastar the other day...........He bought some white 1/
4" waffle board, cut two visors out of it (8" x 15"). He then took 3/8"
hollow aluminium tubes and cut a slit in them..........then slid the wa
ffle board onto the aluminium tube slits. Mounted it in his Glastar and
now has 2 visors for $6.99. They are lightweight, can be painted any c
olor, and block the sun nicely. More then one way to build a $250,000 p
lane for under $100,000 and still have nice amenities inside. I realize
some will consider that a blasphemous statement.........but doing your
homework, ignoring the norm whle getting creative, and shopping around c
an be fun when building these Dream Birds.
P.S. The other day I made a few thought generating statements about th
e different EFIS units that are on the market and how they compare WEIGH
T wise. Since then Tim and Jesse have made excellent points on what to
consider when purchasing one. For those who have already decided THEIR
system is the best and have YET to even fly one hour behind it please i
gnore this post. For those that want to consider PROS and CONS of other
units feel free to respond. When you are considering EFIS units there
are several NEEDS, WANTS, and NICE TO HAVES. I think you need to priori
tize your needs first..........also eliminate those units that are budge
t breakers. Once you have done this and have narrowed your choices get
time FLYING behind the ones you are still considering. All other input
from online "experts" will most likely just confuse you and frustrate yo
ur wife/friends with all your agonizing. Mounting ease, SPACE required
(panel AND subpanel) need to be considered, and WEIGHT.
Just my 20 cents worth,
DEAN 40449
<html><P>Deems, Deems, Deems,.,,,............</P>
<P>....You cannot put $10 tinted Plexi in a DREAM plane. You need
to go to Sun N Fun, pay $300+ for this Tinted Plexi .............THEN co
nvince yourself you just got a great deal. Please don't crush thos
e that feel the need to spend mucho bucks for Novel items for their plan
e project for which they CLAIM they do not have a budget for............
...........(SARCASM).</P>
<P>I saw my friends Glastar the other day...........He bought some white
1/4" waffle board, cut two visors out of it (8" x 15"). He then t
ook 3/8" hollow aluminium tubes and cut a slit in them..........then sli
d the waffle board onto the aluminium tube slits. Mounted it in hi
s Glastar and now has 2 visors for $6.99. They are lightweight, ca
n be painted any color, and block the sun nicely. More then o
ne way to build a $250,000 plane for under $100,000 and still have nice
amenities inside. I realize some will consider that a blasphemous
statement.........but doing your homework, ignoring the norm whle gettin
g creative, and shopping around can be fun when building these Drea
m Birds.</P>
<P>P.S. The other day I made a few thought generating statem
ents about the different EFIS units that are on the market and how they
compare WEIGHT wise. Since then Tim and Jesse have made excellent
points on what to consider when purchasing one. For those wh
o have already decided THEIR system is the best and have YET to even fly
one hour behind it please ignore this post. For those that want t
o consider PROS and CONS of other units feel free to respond. When
you are considering EFIS units there are several NEEDS, WANTS, and NICE
TO HAVES. I think you need to prioritize your needs first........
..also eliminate those units that are budget breakers. Once you ha
ve done this and have narrowed your choices get time FLYING behind the o
nes you are still considering. All other input from online "expert
s" will most likely just confuse you and frustrate your wife/friends wit
h all your agonizing. Mounting ease, SPACE required (panel AND sub
panel) need to be considered, and WEIGHT. </P>
<P>Just my 20 cents worth,</P>
<P>DEAN 40449</P>
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