Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:54 AM - Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. (Werner Schneider)
2. 02:11 AM - Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. (Werner Schneider)
3. 07:50 AM - Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. (John Gonzalez)
4. 07:55 AM - Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. (John Gonzalez)
5. 08:51 AM - Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. (William Greenley)
6. 09:17 AM - Re: High Oil Temps (Scott Schmidt)
7. 09:28 AM - Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. (John Gonzalez)
8. 09:51 AM - Re: High Oil Temps (Rick)
9. 10:31 AM - Re: High Oil Temps (KiloPapa)
10. 11:17 AM - Re: High Oil Temps (Deems Davis)
11. 04:38 PM - Re: High Oil Temps (Mark Ritter)
12. 08:06 PM - Re: High Oil Temps (John W. Cox)
13. 08:47 PM - UAVs ()
14. 08:52 PM - Re: High Oil Temps (Scott Schmidt)
15. 09:28 PM - Re: High Oil Temps (Tim Olson)
16. 10:06 PM - Re: UAVs (Scott Schmidt)
17. 11:34 PM - Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
18. 11:39 PM - Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. |
Hello John,
on the GlaStar which has a fibreglass shell over a steel cage we did
have plenty of hard points (64) to make. How was it done, first we had
to drill a #10 hole with the tabs as guide trough both layers of the
laminate. Next we did bent a wire (0.050) in an L-shape by 3/8" with
that L shape wire it was possible to ream all the foam out of the space
between inner and outer laminate, a shop vacuum should get all the
particles out. A mixture of Q-cell and epoxy then was pushed into that
void (covered on one side with a tape) do that slowly to fill it in
order to get all air out or drill another 1/16" vent hole in about half
way of the hole. that leaves you at the end with a 3/4 inch hard point.
Hope it helps, I could otherwise scan you the GlaStar Manual pages.
br Werner
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
> Again, the idea is to have as much of the lamination(s) covering over
> the hardpoint. It needs to really be inside the lamination, not cut
> into it.
>
> Your suggestion would be 50% correct if you didn't drill throught the
> outside lamination.
>
> I don't know a way to remove a large enough block of foam through four
> holes without the use of solvents which will effect the integrity of
> the surrounding foam.
>
> When I drilled my four holes the drill absolutely popped into foam,
> not wood, unless it was balsa.
>
> Did others really find wood???? I might have something missing. Maybe
> a call to Van's is in order.
>
> John
>
>
>> From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:49:37 -0700
>>
>>
>> You can also just clean out the foam and inject a mixture (resin,
>> cabosil
>> and chopped fibers). Be sure and tape the bottoms of the holes and
>> you will
>> get a nice solid hard point without aluminum spacers.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:40 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>
>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>
>> I have been trimming the windows and working on the cabin top. By the
>> way,
>> an electric high speed grinder with #100 grit works well for
>> finalizing the
>> shape on the windows. It heats up the plexiglass and takes it away
>> all at
>> the same time. Leave the plastic covering on. Outside air temps, as
>> always
>> need to be warm.
>>
>> In section 43 the manual asks you to make aluminum spacers that will
>> house
>> the four screws that through bolt the center brace to the cabin top.
>> I am
>> not one that will normally question the plans, but the aluminum
>> tubes(dowels) I imagine will be bonded into the cabin top and and
>> keep the
>> center brace from pulling out. Being that there are four, it should be
>> fairly strong.
>>
>> What I question however if that there is only so many layers of
>> fiberglass
>> on the outside of the cabin top and so many on the inside. Between
>> there is
>> the usual foam sandwich. These aluminum dowels will get there
>> retension my
>> bonding to both the inside and outside layer of glass, not the foam. The
>> screw head is really not any large in diameter that the O.D. of the
>> aluminum
>>
>> dowel, so it will not provide any retension.
>>
>> Basically, it seems like the cabin top fabricator should have place a
>> hardpoint(Hardwood) in this area instead of the foam or we should be
>> placing
>>
>> a steel plate on the outside to keep these dowels from pulling through.
>> Maybe because there are four it is not a problem, but seeing that
>> they are
>> all in a one inch square spot, my mind thinks it should be made better.
>>
>> John G.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. |
Forgot, use a syringe to fill the void
Werner Schneider wrote:
>
> Hello John,
>
> on the GlaStar which has a fibreglass shell over a steel cage we did
> have plenty of hard points (64) to make. How was it done, first we had
> to drill a #10 hole with the tabs as guide trough both layers of the
> laminate. Next we did bent a wire (0.050) in an L-shape by 3/8" with
> that L shape wire it was possible to ream all the foam out of the
> space between inner and outer laminate, a shop vacuum should get all
> the particles out. A mixture of Q-cell and epoxy then was pushed into
> that void (covered on one side with a tape) do that slowly to fill it
> in order to get all air out or drill another 1/16" vent hole in about
> half way of the hole. that leaves you at the end with a 3/4 inch hard
> point.
>
> Hope it helps, I could otherwise scan you the GlaStar Manual pages.
>
> br Werner
>
> John Gonzalez wrote:
>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>
>> Again, the idea is to have as much of the lamination(s) covering over
>> the hardpoint. It needs to really be inside the lamination, not cut
>> into it.
>>
>> Your suggestion would be 50% correct if you didn't drill throught the
>> outside lamination.
>>
>> I don't know a way to remove a large enough block of foam through
>> four holes without the use of solvents which will effect the
>> integrity of the surrounding foam.
>>
>> When I drilled my four holes the drill absolutely popped into foam,
>> not wood, unless it was balsa.
>>
>> Did others really find wood???? I might have something missing. Maybe
>> a call to Van's is in order.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>> From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
>>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:49:37 -0700
>>>
>>>
>>> You can also just clean out the foam and inject a mixture (resin,
>>> cabosil
>>> and chopped fibers). Be sure and tape the bottoms of the holes and
>>> you will
>>> get a nice solid hard point without aluminum spacers.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
>>> Gonzalez
>>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:40 AM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>>
>>> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>
>>> I have been trimming the windows and working on the cabin top. By
>>> the way,
>>> an electric high speed grinder with #100 grit works well for
>>> finalizing the
>>> shape on the windows. It heats up the plexiglass and takes it away
>>> all at
>>> the same time. Leave the plastic covering on. Outside air temps, as
>>> always
>>> need to be warm.
>>>
>>> In section 43 the manual asks you to make aluminum spacers that will
>>> house
>>> the four screws that through bolt the center brace to the cabin top.
>>> I am
>>> not one that will normally question the plans, but the aluminum
>>> tubes(dowels) I imagine will be bonded into the cabin top and and
>>> keep the
>>> center brace from pulling out. Being that there are four, it should be
>>> fairly strong.
>>>
>>> What I question however if that there is only so many layers of
>>> fiberglass
>>> on the outside of the cabin top and so many on the inside. Between
>>> there is
>>> the usual foam sandwich. These aluminum dowels will get there
>>> retension my
>>> bonding to both the inside and outside layer of glass, not the foam.
>>> The
>>> screw head is really not any large in diameter that the O.D. of the
>>> aluminum
>>>
>>> dowel, so it will not provide any retension.
>>>
>>> Basically, it seems like the cabin top fabricator should have place a
>>> hardpoint(Hardwood) in this area instead of the foam or we should be
>>> placing
>>>
>>> a steel plate on the outside to keep these dowels from pulling through.
>>> Maybe because there are four it is not a problem, but seeing that
>>> they are
>>> all in a one inch square spot, my mind thinks it should be made better.
>>>
>>> John G.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. |
Now, why did I not think about that L-shaped wire and a drill. That is
pretty clever.
Thanks for the information.
JOhn
>From: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 10:53:38 +0200
>
>
>Hello John,
>
>on the GlaStar which has a fibreglass shell over a steel cage we did have
>plenty of hard points (64) to make. How was it done, first we had to drill
>a #10 hole with the tabs as guide trough both layers of the laminate. Next
>we did bent a wire (0.050) in an L-shape by 3/8" with that L shape wire it
>was possible to ream all the foam out of the space between inner and outer
>laminate, a shop vacuum should get all the particles out. A mixture of
>Q-cell and epoxy then was pushed into that void (covered on one side with a
>tape) do that slowly to fill it in order to get all air out or drill
>another 1/16" vent hole in about half way of the hole. that leaves you at
>the end with a 3/4 inch hard point.
>
>Hope it helps, I could otherwise scan you the GlaStar Manual pages.
>
>br Werner
>
>John Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>>Again, the idea is to have as much of the lamination(s) covering over the
>>hardpoint. It needs to really be inside the lamination, not cut into it.
>>
>>Your suggestion would be 50% correct if you didn't drill throught the
>>outside lamination.
>>
>>I don't know a way to remove a large enough block of foam through four
>>holes without the use of solvents which will effect the integrity of the
>>surrounding foam.
>>
>>When I drilled my four holes the drill absolutely popped into foam, not
>>wood, unless it was balsa.
>>
>>Did others really find wood???? I might have something missing. Maybe a
>>call to Van's is in order.
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>>>From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
>>>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:49:37 -0700
>>>
>>>
>>>You can also just clean out the foam and inject a mixture (resin, cabosil
>>>and chopped fibers). Be sure and tape the bottoms of the holes and you
>>>will
>>>get a nice solid hard point without aluminum spacers.
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
>>>Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:40 AM
>>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>>
>>>
>>>I have been trimming the windows and working on the cabin top. By the
>>>way,
>>>an electric high speed grinder with #100 grit works well for finalizing
>>>the
>>>shape on the windows. It heats up the plexiglass and takes it away all at
>>>the same time. Leave the plastic covering on. Outside air temps, as
>>>always
>>>need to be warm.
>>>
>>>In section 43 the manual asks you to make aluminum spacers that will
>>>house
>>>the four screws that through bolt the center brace to the cabin top. I am
>>>not one that will normally question the plans, but the aluminum
>>>tubes(dowels) I imagine will be bonded into the cabin top and and keep
>>>the
>>>center brace from pulling out. Being that there are four, it should be
>>>fairly strong.
>>>
>>>What I question however if that there is only so many layers of
>>>fiberglass
>>>on the outside of the cabin top and so many on the inside. Between there
>>>is
>>>the usual foam sandwich. These aluminum dowels will get there retension
>>>my
>>>bonding to both the inside and outside layer of glass, not the foam. The
>>>screw head is really not any large in diameter that the O.D. of the
>>>aluminum
>>>
>>>dowel, so it will not provide any retension.
>>>
>>>Basically, it seems like the cabin top fabricator should have place a
>>>hardpoint(Hardwood) in this area instead of the foam or we should be
>>>placing
>>>
>>>a steel plate on the outside to keep these dowels from pulling through.
>>>Maybe because there are four it is not a problem, but seeing that they
>>>are
>>>all in a one inch square spot, my mind thinks it should be made better.
>>>
>>>John G.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Center cabin top brace. |
A Monojet syringe, you can buy a box of them through a dental supply house
for a lot cheeper than Aircraft Spruce sells them. Fill from the bottom so
the airspace is pushed out by the raising level of epoxy cotton flox mix.
Thanks,
John
>From: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 11:10:54 +0200
>
>
>Forgot, use a syringe to fill the void
>
>Werner Schneider wrote:
>>
>>Hello John,
>>
>>on the GlaStar which has a fibreglass shell over a steel cage we did have
>>plenty of hard points (64) to make. How was it done, first we had to drill
>>a #10 hole with the tabs as guide trough both layers of the laminate.
>>Next we did bent a wire (0.050) in an L-shape by 3/8" with that L shape
>>wire it was possible to ream all the foam out of the space between inner
>>and outer laminate, a shop vacuum should get all the particles out. A
>>mixture of Q-cell and epoxy then was pushed into that void (covered on one
>>side with a tape) do that slowly to fill it in order to get all air out or
>>drill another 1/16" vent hole in about half way of the hole. that leaves
>>you at the end with a 3/4 inch hard point.
>>
>>Hope it helps, I could otherwise scan you the GlaStar Manual pages.
>>
>>br Werner
>>
>>John Gonzalez wrote:
>>>
>>>Again, the idea is to have as much of the lamination(s) covering over the
>>>hardpoint. It needs to really be inside the lamination, not cut into it.
>>>
>>>Your suggestion would be 50% correct if you didn't drill throught the
>>>outside lamination.
>>>
>>>I don't know a way to remove a large enough block of foam through four
>>>holes without the use of solvents which will effect the integrity of the
>>>surrounding foam.
>>>
>>>When I drilled my four holes the drill absolutely popped into foam, not
>>>wood, unless it was balsa.
>>>
>>>Did others really find wood???? I might have something missing. Maybe a
>>>call to Van's is in order.
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
>>>>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>>>Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>>>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:49:37 -0700
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You can also just clean out the foam and inject a mixture (resin,
>>>>cabosil
>>>>and chopped fibers). Be sure and tape the bottoms of the holes and you
>>>>will
>>>>get a nice solid hard point without aluminum spacers.
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:40 AM
>>>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>>Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>>>
>>>><indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>>
>>>>I have been trimming the windows and working on the cabin top. By the
>>>>way,
>>>>an electric high speed grinder with #100 grit works well for finalizing
>>>>the
>>>>shape on the windows. It heats up the plexiglass and takes it away all
>>>>at
>>>>the same time. Leave the plastic covering on. Outside air temps, as
>>>>always
>>>>need to be warm.
>>>>
>>>>In section 43 the manual asks you to make aluminum spacers that will
>>>>house
>>>>the four screws that through bolt the center brace to the cabin top. I
>>>>am
>>>>not one that will normally question the plans, but the aluminum
>>>>tubes(dowels) I imagine will be bonded into the cabin top and and keep
>>>>the
>>>>center brace from pulling out. Being that there are four, it should be
>>>>fairly strong.
>>>>
>>>>What I question however if that there is only so many layers of
>>>>fiberglass
>>>>on the outside of the cabin top and so many on the inside. Between there
>>>>is
>>>>the usual foam sandwich. These aluminum dowels will get there retension
>>>>my
>>>>bonding to both the inside and outside layer of glass, not the foam. The
>>>>screw head is really not any large in diameter that the O.D. of the
>>>>aluminum
>>>>
>>>>dowel, so it will not provide any retension.
>>>>
>>>>Basically, it seems like the cabin top fabricator should have place a
>>>>hardpoint(Hardwood) in this area instead of the foam or we should be
>>>>placing
>>>>
>>>>a steel plate on the outside to keep these dowels from pulling through.
>>>>Maybe because there are four it is not a problem, but seeing that they
>>>>are
>>>>all in a one inch square spot, my mind thinks it should be made better.
>>>>
>>>>John G.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RV10 Center cabin top brace. |
Not to be picky but if you are searching for these the spelling is Monoject.
:)
Bill Greenley
Soon to be RV-10 builder
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
--> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
A Monojet syringe, you can buy a box of them through a dental supply house
for a lot cheeper than Aircraft Spruce sells them. Fill from the bottom so
the airspace is pushed out by the raising level of epoxy cotton flox mix.
Thanks,
John
>From: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 11:10:54 +0200
>
>
>Forgot, use a syringe to fill the void
>
>Werner Schneider wrote:
>>
>>Hello John,
>>
>>on the GlaStar which has a fibreglass shell over a steel cage we did
>>have
>>plenty of hard points (64) to make. How was it done, first we had to drill
>>a #10 hole with the tabs as guide trough both layers of the laminate.
>>Next we did bent a wire (0.050) in an L-shape by 3/8" with that L shape
>>wire it was possible to ream all the foam out of the space between inner
>>and outer laminate, a shop vacuum should get all the particles out. A
>>mixture of Q-cell and epoxy then was pushed into that void (covered on one
>>side with a tape) do that slowly to fill it in order to get all air out or
>>drill another 1/16" vent hole in about half way of the hole. that leaves
>>you at the end with a 3/4 inch hard point.
>>
>>Hope it helps, I could otherwise scan you the GlaStar Manual pages.
>>
>>br Werner
>>
>>John Gonzalez wrote:
>>>--> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>
>>>Again, the idea is to have as much of the lamination(s) covering over
>>>the
>>>hardpoint. It needs to really be inside the lamination, not cut into it.
>>>
>>>Your suggestion would be 50% correct if you didn't drill throught the
>>>outside lamination.
>>>
>>>I don't know a way to remove a large enough block of foam through
>>>four
>>>holes without the use of solvents which will effect the integrity of the
>>>surrounding foam.
>>>
>>>When I drilled my four holes the drill absolutely popped into foam,
>>>not
>>>wood, unless it was balsa.
>>>
>>>Did others really find wood???? I might have something missing. Maybe
>>>a
>>>call to Van's is in order.
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
>>>>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>>>Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>>>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:49:37 -0700
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You can also just clean out the foam and inject a mixture (resin,
>>>>cabosil
>>>>and chopped fibers). Be sure and tape the bottoms of the holes and you
>>>>will
>>>>get a nice solid hard point without aluminum spacers.
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
>>>>Gonzalez
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:40 AM
>>>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>>Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>>>>
>>>><indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>>>>
>>>>I have been trimming the windows and working on the cabin top. By
>>>>the
>>>>way,
>>>>an electric high speed grinder with #100 grit works well for finalizing
>>>>the
>>>>shape on the windows. It heats up the plexiglass and takes it away all
>>>>at
>>>>the same time. Leave the plastic covering on. Outside air temps, as
>>>>always
>>>>need to be warm.
>>>>
>>>>In section 43 the manual asks you to make aluminum spacers that will
>>>>house
>>>>the four screws that through bolt the center brace to the cabin top. I
>>>>am
>>>>not one that will normally question the plans, but the aluminum
>>>>tubes(dowels) I imagine will be bonded into the cabin top and and keep
>>>>the
>>>>center brace from pulling out. Being that there are four, it should be
>>>>fairly strong.
>>>>
>>>>What I question however if that there is only so many layers of
>>>>fiberglass
>>>>on the outside of the cabin top and so many on the inside. Between there
>>>>is
>>>>the usual foam sandwich. These aluminum dowels will get there retension
>>>>my
>>>>bonding to both the inside and outside layer of glass, not the foam. The
>>>>screw head is really not any large in diameter that the O.D. of the
>>>>aluminum
>>>>
>>>>dowel, so it will not provide any retension.
>>>>
>>>>Basically, it seems like the cabin top fabricator should have place
>>>>a
>>>>hardpoint(Hardwood) in this area instead of the foam or we should be
>>>>placing
>>>>
>>>>a steel plate on the outside to keep these dowels from pulling
>>>>through. Maybe because there are four it is not a problem, but
>>>>seeing that they are all in a one inch square spot, my mind thinks
>>>>it should be made better.
>>>>
>>>>John G.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
I had quite a long conversation with a gentlemen from Airflow Systems yesterday
(I feel bad because I can't remember his name now). They have developed a new
oil cooler that is apparently more efficient than the one Van's supplies. It
is the same dimensions and should bolt directly to the mount supplied by Van's.
From their findings they have seen a decrease in oil temp of 8-15 degrees.
He is also doing work with an RV-10 out there putting thermal couples all around
the engine and measuring the efficiency of the cooling. He has come to many
of the same conclusions you all have. 1. - Tunnel heat is caused by the exhaust
and not the heating system, and 2. - There needs to be more outlets on the
bottom or side of the cowling. He feels the best location for more louvers would
be on the side of the cowl but the bottom would work as well. He also feels
there is a turbulent area behind the cowl on the bottom on the plane that
is causing some cooling inefficiencies and drag. (Van would be rolling his eyes
if he heard that one. hahaha. He would say yup, who cares)
Like I mentioned yesterday, I also feel the cooling is decreases due to the increase
of angle of attack caused by 4 people in the aircraft. If I climb at 105
knots with 2 and 4 people with the exact same power settings but the oil temp
is higher with 4 people there has to be an effect on cooling. This makes perfect
sense. With a higher angle of attack (I will have to record AOA with 2
and 4 people) there is a slightly higher pressure on the bottom of the aircraft
which will reduce the airflow through the cowl. He agreed this occurs on all
of Van's aircraft. The more weight you have in the aircraft, the faster IAS
you have to fly while climbing to maintain the same oil temps.
I agree with Tim's statement as well concerning being too cool in the winter. My temps in the winter are very close to the 165 range so increasing cooling too much will be bad during those cold months. Seems like the best scenario is to add louvers to the bottom, possibly add the more efficient oil cooler and in the winter I will have to add the oil cooler shutter from Vans. http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1178035620-106-414&browse=engines&product=oil_shutter
The more I talk with people though, the more I am finding lots of people are dealing
this issue. Alex in Texas has 2 oil coolers on his RV-10 and is now switching
to the new oil cooler from Airflow Systems.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Randy DeBauw <Randy@abros.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 4:54:44 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
Well I need to chime in here. On one trip about 4 months after my first
flight Cheryl and I had to make a trip to Redmond Or and pick up two
passengers. We were coming back to the valley. I landed at Redmond with
the air temp about 95 deg. The airport is 3200ft or so field elevation.
We filled up with fuel loaded about 75 lbs of baggage and 4 passengers.
I mean we were at gross. We headed for the runway. At the end of the
runway it was 101 deg. We left the ground at about the 1500 ft. mark.
Now the engine was heat soaked and we were only on the ground for 20 min
(no cool off time at all). On climb out Rob's engine monitor squawked
check oil temp. We were at 235 and climbing. At 500 ft AGL I lowered
the nose so we were climbing at 100ft per minute. The engine temp hit
239 then leveled off before dropping to about 225. I called the engine
rebuilder and he said that it would be ok and the correct solution was
lower the nose and make sure it started to drop. He also has told me
that in order to get the moisture out of an engine in the winter time to
get the oil temp to 180 deg. Below that the moisture that builds sitting
in the hanger for a month or so will not be evaporated. My normal temps
are 185 to 205 most of the time. Good flying. Randy 40006
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
Have you tried climing at 115Kts indicated. That seems to be the most
efficient speed for climging from our testing. On the Sorcerer putting
either 110Kts or 115Kts is standard for us on climb. It should run a
little
cooler that way.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
This changes the story a bit....if you're also seeing high
CHT's on climbout in the winter, then I believe you definitely
have to look at your baffling and there is probably a bit of
improvement that can be done. The temps weren't that hot
that day, and my guess is you'll easily be able to drop
a bunch of temperature by some baffling improvements.
Check those links I sent in one of the last emails on the
list. Especially verify that you have prevented air from
flowing under your upper cowl air ramps, and that you have
sealed your air chamber above the engine well. For CHT's,
also file out the slag between the cylinder fins on the
top of your cylinder below the sparkplugs. If you're seeing
heat in more than just one form....CHT's and Oil temps, especially
the fact that you've seen it in the winter, then there is a
problem somewhere. This weekend it hit 85 degrees by me,
but yet I never hit 400 CHT on climbout except for under the
most extreme of hot days.
Personally, I had thought I did a good job on my baffles and
cowl sealing. It wasn't until I really dug in that I realized
that my original job sucked in comparison to what was possible.
I really doubt that just the additional people load changed
your AOA enough to make a huge difference. I fly a large
percentage of my time with 3-4 seats filled, and even when
it's the kids there, that means I carry lots of baggage too.
The airspeed you climb at will affect the temps a lot more, I
would bet. I climb like you (106kts approx.).
I would seriously dig into the cowling/baffling/cooling.
Check that page I put together. I think there's enough there
to figure it all out. That tips page too has the file type
I used.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> Jack, I typically run my oil around 10 quarts. When I landed I
checked
> it and it was around 9.5. I added two quarts to add more thermal mass
> before taking off.
>
> Tim, I will download the data and take a closer look at it. I sure
> would like to be able to climb out at 24 square without having oil
temp
> issues. In the winter I have had to adjust power because of CHT.
When
> they get to 400 I start pulling power or decreasing climb rate. But
it
> appears the summer brings other issues. When I was climbing out on
> Saturday the oil temps were at 220, my CHT was 394.
>
> I have heard the ducting that feeds the oil cooler is 75% the area of
> the cooler, but with a baffles it would seem there would be enough
> pressure to push as much air as possible through the cooler. I was
> wondering if a slightly higher angle of attack (caused by 4 people)
> increases the pressure on the bottom of the aircraft just slightly
which
> reduces the amount of air flowing out of the cowling. ???????????
>
> Scott Schmidt
> scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 12:40:06 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
>
> <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
>
> Adding some speculation to this thread...
>
> In my RV-4, I can tell to a remarkable degree of accuracy how much oil
I
> have by watching the oil temp on a hot day. If the oil sump gets just
a
> little below 6 qts, the oil temp really starts to climb. I normally
> keep my oil at 6 quarts (capacity of the O-320 is 8 quarts), but in
the
> hottest months I try to keep it at 7 quarts just to keep the temps
down.
> If I put 8 quarts in, I will quickly lose a quart through the
breather.
>
> I'm wondering whether it would be useful to have an air-oil separator
> and keep the oil at max capacity for better cooling. I have such a
> separator on my Pietenpol and since I don't lose any oil through the
> breather, the oil consumption on that engine (Continental A65) is
> running at about a quart every 25 hours. I'm considering putting an
> air-oil separator on the RV-10, but had not considered that it might
> help with oil temperature. Helps keep the belly clean, too.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with an RV-10 with an air-oil
separator,
> and does it still have problems with oil temps?
>
> Jack Phillips
> #40610
> Tailcone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 3:03 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
>
>
> This one will be interesting to follow. It's a tough spot to be in...
> not high enough to seriously scare you, but not nearly as low as
normal.
> Makes it hard to figure out what to do.
>
> For what it's worth, I seem to hold in the 165-180 range in the
winters,
> and pretty much almost always about 185 in the summers here. But, I
> also never saw any alarming oil temps when we were on any of our
trips,
> even though we did fly on some hot days....some of that was even in
the
> SouthWest, and NorthWest in the summer, and some was on extended
climbs.
>
> Looking into some of the logs that I downloaded from my EIS, I do see
> that on the trip to Oregon, (hot), it looks like my highest Oil Temp
was
> 197, and that was just a couple of log
> entries and then it was back in the 180's. Then looking at
> another trip last spring/summer on a hot day (I think that was the
> Yellowstone trip), I do see that on one climbout I hit 208. That same
> flight stabilized in the low to mid
> 190's. But, keep in mind from Deem's post that the
> recommended specs 165-200 in level flight cruise.....so if you peak
out
> on climb at something higher but still well under the 245 degree
range,
> I don't know that I'd worry.
> I guess I myself would reduce that limit from 245 to maybe 220 to get
an
> earlier warning, and maybe have my Chelton EIS
> limit programmed to go yellow at 200 and red at 220. Just
> like the CHT limit is officially 500, but you'd be nuts to run that
> high.....so my yellow is 400 and red is 415 or something like that.
>
> Again though, when I pour over my logs, I don't see anything that
leads
> me to believe that we have anything to worry about from a design
> perspective. The oil temps are usually towards the middle end of that
> temp range and I'd pretty much call them "perfect". I wouldn't want
it
> to run any cooler, and except for those brief peaks during climbs
where
> I topped 200, if you look at my x/c line graph, it's almost never
> anywhere near 200.
>
> Keep watching it for some flights and see how it goes.
> Since you have a Chelton system, I know you can use EGview, which is
> FANTASTIC software....download your logs from all of your flights for
a
> while and you can check out what the
> temps were all the time. It's a great tool for just
> this type of thing. It also includes a GAMI tool so you can flow
match
> your injectors and it will analyze to show you the spread. Good
stuff!
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Scott Schmidt wrote:
> > Need some advise. On Saturday I loaded up the plane and went to
Moab
> > UT for the day (about an hour flight). We hung out for the day,
went
> > to the car show down there, rented a Jeep and did a couple trials
and
> > then headed home.
> > We left around 8:00pm. The outside air temp was around 74 when we
took
>
> > off. Before starting my engine the oil temp was 101 F. I took off
> > flew south over Moab, then down on the Colorado River and began
> > climbing to the north. While climbing I noticed my oil temps at
220
> > F. I have never seen them that high and I was right over the
airport
> > so I landed and thought my ducting had fallen off.
> > I took off the cowl, and everything looked perfect. Thought a bird
or
>
> > something else might have gone down the ducting and covered the oil
> > cooler but it looked perfect when I checked that. Tim took my call
> > late at night while he was watching a movie just so I could have a
> > second head thinking about anything else I might have missed.
> > I put the cowling back on and took off by myself and flew around.
I
> > really had to climb slow to get it to 200 F but everything looked
> > normal. So the four of us loaded up and we were off. I typically
> > climb around 100 to 105. On climb out the temps went to around 205
> > and maxed at 210. Once I was at 9500 they went to 195 to 200 and
then
>
> > seemed to stabilize around 190. These still seem higher than I
have
> > had in the past. I am use to temps around 170 to 180.
> > I typically just fly with my wife and I and most the flying has
been
> > in the winter. My CHT's and EGT's look the same as they normally
did,
> > only my oil temps have changed. This was the warmest weather I
have
> > flown in with 4 people but I was still climbing at 105 knots. Sure
my
>
> > climb rate may be lower but the cooling should be the same. All I
can
>
> > think of is the angle of attack with 4 people changes the cooling
rate
>
> > into the oil cooler.
> >
> > Do many of you in the south go above 200 F very often? Where does
> > your oil temp run with 4 people with an OAT of 70 and power
settings
> > around
> > 19.5 and
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
9:14 AM
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RV10 Center cabin top brace. |
When one says the incorrect name to the assistent and then the asistent does
not correct the doctor, this is the end result. Thanks for the
clarification.
These work very well, one needs to cut the end to the appropriate size
opening depending on the material that is mixed with the resin. Flox
requires the largest opening.
>From: "William Greenley" <greenley@starband.net>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:50:36 -0400
>
>
>Not to be picky but if you are searching for these the spelling is
>Monoject.
>:)
>
>Bill Greenley
>Soon to be RV-10 builder
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
>Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:49 AM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
>
>
>--> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>
>A Monojet syringe, you can buy a box of them through a dental supply house
>for a lot cheeper than Aircraft Spruce sells them. Fill from the bottom so
>the airspace is pushed out by the raising level of epoxy cotton flox mix.
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
>
>
> >From: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
> >To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
> >Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 11:10:54 +0200
> >
> >
> >Forgot, use a syringe to fill the void
> >
> >Werner Schneider wrote:
> >>
> >>Hello John,
> >>
> >>on the GlaStar which has a fibreglass shell over a steel cage we did
> >>have
> >>plenty of hard points (64) to make. How was it done, first we had to
>drill
>
> >>a #10 hole with the tabs as guide trough both layers of the laminate.
> >>Next we did bent a wire (0.050) in an L-shape by 3/8" with that L shape
> >>wire it was possible to ream all the foam out of the space between inner
> >>and outer laminate, a shop vacuum should get all the particles out. A
> >>mixture of Q-cell and epoxy then was pushed into that void (covered on
>one
>
> >>side with a tape) do that slowly to fill it in order to get all air out
>or
>
> >>drill another 1/16" vent hole in about half way of the hole. that leaves
> >>you at the end with a 3/4 inch hard point.
> >>
> >>Hope it helps, I could otherwise scan you the GlaStar Manual pages.
> >>
> >>br Werner
> >>
> >>John Gonzalez wrote:
> >>>--> <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >>>
> >>>Again, the idea is to have as much of the lamination(s) covering over
> >>>the
> >>>hardpoint. It needs to really be inside the lamination, not cut into
>it.
> >>>
> >>>Your suggestion would be 50% correct if you didn't drill throught the
> >>>outside lamination.
> >>>
> >>>I don't know a way to remove a large enough block of foam through
> >>>four
> >>>holes without the use of solvents which will effect the integrity of
>the
> >>>surrounding foam.
> >>>
> >>>When I drilled my four holes the drill absolutely popped into foam,
> >>>not
> >>>wood, unless it was balsa.
> >>>
> >>>Did others really find wood???? I might have something missing. Maybe
> >>>a
> >>>call to Van's is in order.
> >>>
> >>>John
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
> >>>>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >>>>Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
> >>>>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:49:37 -0700
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>You can also just clean out the foam and inject a mixture (resin,
> >>>>cabosil
> >>>>and chopped fibers). Be sure and tape the bottoms of the holes and you
> >>>>will
> >>>>get a nice solid hard point without aluminum spacers.
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> >>>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
> >>>>Gonzalez
> >>>>Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:40 AM
> >>>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >>>>Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Center cabin top brace.
> >>>>
> >>>><indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> >>>>
> >>>>I have been trimming the windows and working on the cabin top. By
> >>>>the
> >>>>way,
> >>>>an electric high speed grinder with #100 grit works well for
>finalizing
> >>>>the
> >>>>shape on the windows. It heats up the plexiglass and takes it away all
> >>>>at
> >>>>the same time. Leave the plastic covering on. Outside air temps, as
> >>>>always
> >>>>need to be warm.
> >>>>
> >>>>In section 43 the manual asks you to make aluminum spacers that will
> >>>>house
> >>>>the four screws that through bolt the center brace to the cabin top. I
> >>>>am
> >>>>not one that will normally question the plans, but the aluminum
> >>>>tubes(dowels) I imagine will be bonded into the cabin top and and keep
> >>>>the
> >>>>center brace from pulling out. Being that there are four, it should be
> >>>>fairly strong.
> >>>>
> >>>>What I question however if that there is only so many layers of
> >>>>fiberglass
> >>>>on the outside of the cabin top and so many on the inside. Between
>there
>
> >>>>is
> >>>>the usual foam sandwich. These aluminum dowels will get there
>retension
> >>>>my
> >>>>bonding to both the inside and outside layer of glass, not the foam.
>The
> >>>>screw head is really not any large in diameter that the O.D. of the
> >>>>aluminum
> >>>>
> >>>>dowel, so it will not provide any retension.
> >>>>
> >>>>Basically, it seems like the cabin top fabricator should have place
> >>>>a
> >>>>hardpoint(Hardwood) in this area instead of the foam or we should be
> >>>>placing
> >>>>
> >>>>a steel plate on the outside to keep these dowels from pulling
> >>>>through. Maybe because there are four it is not a problem, but
> >>>>seeing that they are all in a one inch square spot, my mind thinks
> >>>>it should be made better.
> >>>>
> >>>>John G.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
Heres a mod I saw at Sun N fun to redirect the oil cooler air towards the aft opening
in the cowl, if you look at the front of the oil cooler you will see a
sheet metal curved part that takes the hot air off the cooler air and redirects
it to the bottom of the cowl and out the opening...not sure if it helped, the
builder seemed to think so. He indicated
that the ideal position for the cooler would be 90 degrees from the firewall, not
just tilted down like the stock cooler box.
Rick S.
40185
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
I appreciate the open discussion and brain-storming regarding the oil
temps, oil cooler location, etc.
Keep it going!
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
Ditto That!
and Thanks Scott for the post regarding the Airflow Performance
conversations and findings, particularly since they appear to be
supported with some data and testing. Rick, the pic of the diverter
duct/shield was intriguing, I wonder if it really helps w/ cooling. I'm
not sure what the velocity of the air is exiting the oil cooler, but as
it hits the duct/shield I would expect some backpressure to be created
which might have an adverse effect on 'pulling' cooling air from the
oil cooler. It seems to me that the most optimum location for the oil
cooler would be 'in-line' with the intake and exit air, with some sort
of a 'venturi' downstream of the oil cooler to compensate for any
airflow loss that occurs through the oil cooler itself. Seems that the
more bends that are put into the path of the airflow, the more the
airflow is restricted and the less efficient it becomes. Fluid dynamics
is magic to me so any insight into this topic is educational.
Regarding the 'louvers' in the bottom of the cowl. They appear to help
with the oil cooling, but I wonder what they are doing to the overall
engine cooling/drag equation? this is another area of 'black magic' and
what I've learned so for is that it's not at all intuitive. there is a
post on VAF from the Lancair list of some in-depth looks into this whole
topic of cooling and airflow.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=17398
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
KiloPapa wrote:
> I appreciate the open discussion and brain-storming regarding the oil
> temps, oil cooler location, etc.
> Keep it going!
>
> *
> *
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
Alex does a lot of touch and goes doing transition training in hot Texas
weather. He also has an A/C that probably has some effect on high oil temp.
Mark
N410MR
>From: Scott Schmidt <scottmschmidt@yahoo.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
>Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:16:37 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I had quite a long conversation with a gentlemen from Airflow Systems
>yesterday (I feel bad because I can't remember his name now). They have
>developed a new oil cooler that is apparently more efficient than the one
>Van's supplies. It is the same dimensions and should bolt directly to the
>mount supplied by Van's. From their findings they have seen a decrease in
>oil temp of 8-15 degrees.
>He is also doing work with an RV-10 out there putting thermal couples all
>around the engine and measuring the efficiency of the cooling. He has come
>to many of the same conclusions you all have. 1. - Tunnel heat is caused
>by the exhaust and not the heating system, and 2. - There needs to be more
>outlets on the bottom or side of the cowling. He feels the best location
>for more louvers would be on the side of the cowl but the bottom would work
>as well. He also feels there is a turbulent area behind the cowl on the
>bottom on the plane that is causing some cooling inefficiencies and drag.
>(Van would be rolling his eyes if he heard that one. hahaha. He would say
>yup, who cares)
>Like I mentioned yesterday, I also feel the cooling is decreases due to the
>increase of angle of attack caused by 4 people in the aircraft. If I climb
>at 105 knots with 2 and 4 people with the exact same power settings but the
>oil temp is higher with 4 people there has to be an effect on cooling.
>This makes perfect sense. With a higher angle of attack (I will have to
>record AOA with 2 and 4 people) there is a slightly higher pressure on the
>bottom of the aircraft which will reduce the airflow through the cowl. He
>agreed this occurs on all of Van's aircraft. The more weight you have in
>the aircraft, the faster IAS you have to fly while climbing to maintain the
>same oil temps.
>
>I agree with Tim's statement as well concerning being too cool in the
>winter. My temps in the winter are very close to the 165 range so
>increasing cooling too much will be bad during those cold months. Seems
>like the best scenario is to add louvers to the bottom, possibly add the
>more efficient oil cooler and in the winter I will have to add the oil
>cooler shutter from Vans.
>http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1178035620-106-414&browse=engines&product=oil_shutter
>
>The more I talk with people though, the more I am finding lots of people
>are dealing this issue. Alex in Texas has 2 oil coolers on his RV-10 and
>is now switching to the new oil cooler from Airflow Systems.
>
>Scott Schmidt
>scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Randy DeBauw <Randy@abros.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 4:54:44 PM
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
>
>
>
>Well I need to chime in here. On one trip about 4 months after my first
>flight Cheryl and I had to make a trip to Redmond Or and pick up two
>passengers. We were coming back to the valley. I landed at Redmond with
>the air temp about 95 deg. The airport is 3200ft or so field elevation.
>We filled up with fuel loaded about 75 lbs of baggage and 4 passengers.
>I mean we were at gross. We headed for the runway. At the end of the
>runway it was 101 deg. We left the ground at about the 1500 ft. mark.
>Now the engine was heat soaked and we were only on the ground for 20 min
>(no cool off time at all). On climb out Rob's engine monitor squawked
>check oil temp. We were at 235 and climbing. At 500 ft AGL I lowered
>the nose so we were climbing at 100ft per minute. The engine temp hit
>239 then leveled off before dropping to about 225. I called the engine
>rebuilder and he said that it would be ok and the correct solution was
>lower the nose and make sure it started to drop. He also has told me
>that in order to get the moisture out of an engine in the winter time to
>get the oil temp to 180 deg. Below that the moisture that builds sitting
>in the hanger for a month or so will not be evaporated. My normal temps
>are 185 to 205 most of the time. Good flying. Randy 40006
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
>Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 3:02 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
>
>
>Have you tried climing at 115Kts indicated. That seems to be the most
>efficient speed for climging from our testing. On the Sorcerer putting
>either 110Kts or 115Kts is standard for us on climb. It should run a
>little
>cooler that way.
>
>Do not archive
>
>Jesse Saint
>Saint Aviation, Inc.
>jesse@saintaviation.com
>www.saintaviation.com
>Cell: 352-427-0285
>Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 4:42 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
>
>
>This changes the story a bit....if you're also seeing high
>CHT's on climbout in the winter, then I believe you definitely
>have to look at your baffling and there is probably a bit of
>improvement that can be done. The temps weren't that hot
>that day, and my guess is you'll easily be able to drop
>a bunch of temperature by some baffling improvements.
>Check those links I sent in one of the last emails on the
>list. Especially verify that you have prevented air from
>flowing under your upper cowl air ramps, and that you have
>sealed your air chamber above the engine well. For CHT's,
>also file out the slag between the cylinder fins on the
>top of your cylinder below the sparkplugs. If you're seeing
>heat in more than just one form....CHT's and Oil temps, especially
>the fact that you've seen it in the winter, then there is a
>problem somewhere. This weekend it hit 85 degrees by me,
>but yet I never hit 400 CHT on climbout except for under the
>most extreme of hot days.
>
>Personally, I had thought I did a good job on my baffles and
>cowl sealing. It wasn't until I really dug in that I realized
>that my original job sucked in comparison to what was possible.
>
>I really doubt that just the additional people load changed
>your AOA enough to make a huge difference. I fly a large
>percentage of my time with 3-4 seats filled, and even when
>it's the kids there, that means I carry lots of baggage too.
>The airspeed you climb at will affect the temps a lot more, I
>would bet. I climb like you (106kts approx.).
>
>I would seriously dig into the cowling/baffling/cooling.
>Check that page I put together. I think there's enough there
>to figure it all out. That tips page too has the file type
>I used.
>
>Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>do not archive
>
>
>Scott Schmidt wrote:
> > Jack, I typically run my oil around 10 quarts. When I landed I
>checked
> > it and it was around 9.5. I added two quarts to add more thermal mass
> > before taking off.
> >
> > Tim, I will download the data and take a closer look at it. I sure
> > would like to be able to climb out at 24 square without having oil
>temp
> > issues. In the winter I have had to adjust power because of CHT.
>When
> > they get to 400 I start pulling power or decreasing climb rate. But
>it
> > appears the summer brings other issues. When I was climbing out on
> > Saturday the oil temps were at 220, my CHT was 394.
> >
> > I have heard the ducting that feeds the oil cooler is 75% the area of
> > the cooler, but with a baffles it would seem there would be enough
> > pressure to push as much air as possible through the cooler. I was
> > wondering if a slightly higher angle of attack (caused by 4 people)
> > increases the pressure on the bottom of the aircraft just slightly
>which
> > reduces the amount of air flowing out of the cowling. ???????????
> >
> > Scott Schmidt
> > scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 12:40:06 PM
> > Subject: RE: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
> >
> > <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
> >
> > Adding some speculation to this thread...
> >
> > In my RV-4, I can tell to a remarkable degree of accuracy how much oil
>I
> > have by watching the oil temp on a hot day. If the oil sump gets just
>a
> > little below 6 qts, the oil temp really starts to climb. I normally
> > keep my oil at 6 quarts (capacity of the O-320 is 8 quarts), but in
>the
> > hottest months I try to keep it at 7 quarts just to keep the temps
>down.
> > If I put 8 quarts in, I will quickly lose a quart through the
>breather.
> >
> > I'm wondering whether it would be useful to have an air-oil separator
> > and keep the oil at max capacity for better cooling. I have such a
> > separator on my Pietenpol and since I don't lose any oil through the
> > breather, the oil consumption on that engine (Continental A65) is
> > running at about a quart every 25 hours. I'm considering putting an
> > air-oil separator on the RV-10, but had not considered that it might
> > help with oil temperature. Helps keep the belly clean, too.
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience with an RV-10 with an air-oil
>separator,
> > and does it still have problems with oil temps?
> >
> > Jack Phillips
> > #40610
> > Tailcone
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 3:03 PM
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
> >
> >
> > This one will be interesting to follow. It's a tough spot to be in...
> > not high enough to seriously scare you, but not nearly as low as
>normal.
> > Makes it hard to figure out what to do.
> >
> > For what it's worth, I seem to hold in the 165-180 range in the
>winters,
> > and pretty much almost always about 185 in the summers here. But, I
> > also never saw any alarming oil temps when we were on any of our
>trips,
> > even though we did fly on some hot days....some of that was even in
>the
> > SouthWest, and NorthWest in the summer, and some was on extended
>climbs.
> >
> > Looking into some of the logs that I downloaded from my EIS, I do see
> > that on the trip to Oregon, (hot), it looks like my highest Oil Temp
>was
> > 197, and that was just a couple of log
> > entries and then it was back in the 180's. Then looking at
> > another trip last spring/summer on a hot day (I think that was the
> > Yellowstone trip), I do see that on one climbout I hit 208. That same
> > flight stabilized in the low to mid
> > 190's. But, keep in mind from Deem's post that the
> > recommended specs 165-200 in level flight cruise.....so if you peak
>out
> > on climb at something higher but still well under the 245 degree
>range,
> > I don't know that I'd worry.
> > I guess I myself would reduce that limit from 245 to maybe 220 to get
>an
> > earlier warning, and maybe have my Chelton EIS
> > limit programmed to go yellow at 200 and red at 220. Just
> > like the CHT limit is officially 500, but you'd be nuts to run that
> > high.....so my yellow is 400 and red is 415 or something like that.
> >
> > Again though, when I pour over my logs, I don't see anything that
>leads
> > me to believe that we have anything to worry about from a design
> > perspective. The oil temps are usually towards the middle end of that
> > temp range and I'd pretty much call them "perfect". I wouldn't want
>it
> > to run any cooler, and except for those brief peaks during climbs
>where
> > I topped 200, if you look at my x/c line graph, it's almost never
> > anywhere near 200.
> >
> > Keep watching it for some flights and see how it goes.
> > Since you have a Chelton system, I know you can use EGview, which is
> > FANTASTIC software....download your logs from all of your flights for
>a
> > while and you can check out what the
> > temps were all the time. It's a great tool for just
> > this type of thing. It also includes a GAMI tool so you can flow
>match
> > your injectors and it will analyze to show you the spread. Good
>stuff!
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> > Scott Schmidt wrote:
> > > Need some advise. On Saturday I loaded up the plane and went to
>Moab
> > > UT for the day (about an hour flight). We hung out for the day,
>went
> > > to the car show down there, rented a Jeep and did a couple trials
>and
> > > then headed home.
> > > We left around 8:00pm. The outside air temp was around 74 when we
>took
> >
> > > off. Before starting my engine the oil temp was 101 F. I took off
> > > flew south over Moab, then down on the Colorado River and began
> > > climbing to the north. While climbing I noticed my oil temps at
>220
> > > F. I have never seen them that high and I was right over the
>airport
> > > so I landed and thought my ducting had fallen off.
> > > I took off the cowl, and everything looked perfect. Thought a bird
>or
> >
> > > something else might have gone down the ducting and covered the oil
> > > cooler but it looked perfect when I checked that. Tim took my call
> > > late at night while he was watching a movie just so I could have a
> > > second head thinking about anything else I might have missed.
> > > I put the cowling back on and took off by myself and flew around.
>I
> > > really had to climb slow to get it to 200 F but everything looked
> > > normal. So the four of us loaded up and we were off. I typically
> > > climb around 100 to 105. On climb out the temps went to around 205
> > > and maxed at 210. Once I was at 9500 they went to 195 to 200 and
>then
> >
> > > seemed to stabilize around 190. These still seem higher than I
>have
> > > had in the past. I am use to temps around 170 to 180.
> > > I typically just fly with my wife and I and most the flying has
>been
> > > in the winter. My CHT's and EGT's look the same as they normally
>did,
> > > only my oil temps have changed. This was the warmest weather I
>have
> > > flown in with 4 people but I was still climbing at 105 knots. Sure
>my
> >
> > > climb rate may be lower but the cooling should be the same. All I
>can
> >
> > > think of is the angle of attack with 4 people changes the cooling
>rate
> >
> > > into the oil cooler.
> > >
> > > Do many of you in the south go above 200 F very often? Where does
> > > your oil temp run with 4 people with an OAT of 70 and power
>settings
> > > around
> > > 19.5 and
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
>--
>9:14 AM
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as
$771/month*
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
The archives are full of the posted problem causes and correction
possibilities to this dilemma. I forwarded to Tim a great On Demand
Video series from Lycoming on the importance of oil and its handling to
be placed at RV University. It is worth your time to review. Keep your
oil level UP.
1. There was, is and will remain to be several factors affecting
unusual operating temperatures. The first point is that aluminum engine
components do not like high temperatures. I have a lower threshold for
acceptable operating temperature than several readers so I will not
expound or rehash.
2. The aircraft in a "High Alpha" or High angle of attack
configuration changes the flow (negatively) into the forward cooling
openings and changes the relative airflow over and extraction of
discharged heat in the lower cowl (out the bottom). Draw yourself an
airflow diagram and you will see how bends and contortions make little
sense.
3. The material used in transporting High Pressure /Lower
temperature ambient airflow to the oil heat exchanger is of importance.
I was hopeful that a few HVAC specialist would pipe up on the obvious
area for improvement in the VAN designed Scat system.
4. Dan Checkoway has posted the value in improved flow heat
exchangers and the inherent cracking of exchanger mounts as designed and
plans built - the baffle material takes a tremendous shock - so DSS
balance your engine (and your avionics will love you too). Learn from
Dan's posts too.
Answer to #1. Reduce the number of constricting 90 degree duct bends by
creating your own - improved airflow duct system. Consider leaving the
cheap, available and easy to buy Scat tubing and consider a two BID
composite smooth wall distribution plenum. To keep your temperatures
lower, move to a more temperate locale like one that rains frequently
and has little sunlight. I am a strong proponent of Forsling Exhaust
and ceramic coating them ( ie. Scott Schmidt).
Answer to #2, choose to keep guys like me out of the back seat and keep
your nose low in a low and passive state of climb - under 115 knots.
(that is NOT why I bought the RV-10). I want to climb like a bandit and
get out of Dodge in a hurry. You can design that feature back into your
cowl and your airflow distribution system - Simply.
Answer #3 Insulate your composite duct To and From the heat exchanger.
Answer #4 Get a more efficient exchanger while you are doing mods as Dan
did.
Now back to the diatribe. Three 90 degree elbows (that equals 270
degrees of contortion) and trying to force the Heat Exchanger duct
forward into a direct opposition of high pressure 115 mph air /heated
flow downward and aft from over the cylinder fins is not "brilliant
aerodynamic design". Think about trying to blow into a 2.5" scat tube
sticking out the window of your car at 100 mph. Take it upon yourself to
create a mount bracket and exchanger orientation which works at the most
important time - Climb configuration. Consider studying why the James
High Pressure Induction Plenum can be of value over a plans built
variant. Again, my past posts stated that cooling is enhanced by Delta
P and Delta T. Pressure Differential and Temperature Differential
between the upper and lower decks. I am not a proponent of solely the
louvers but they are a half hearted attempt at a correction for a known
problem. Design the direction and capture of ambient airflow for the
'High Alpha' configuration. Draw a simple cartoon of the airflow path
into and out of your aircraft while in High Alpha - again think about
blowing out the window of your cabin. Cruise configuration will take
care of itself. Assist the flow with logical and smooth curves into and
out of the exchanger. If doing louvers, then make them so they are
designed for High Alpha orientation. Yes, the positive pressure
increases on the bottom (the more reduced pressure of the lower cowl
negates) against the change over the top (when in High Alpha). This
reduces, negates or defeats the affective extraction of convective
airflow in comparison to cruise. Hence - augmenters.
Keep your oil clean and up to the right level. Keep building.
John Cox #600 in 2015 or about. (Oh and I do have a CHT number for
"Houston we have a problem" ) Kelly this is your cue to pipe in here!
PS - the aluminum can talk back and top ends are expensive but that is
what maintenance is for... right? I also like the ability to run LOP so
I can save the fuel for ROP in High Alpha.
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
I appreciate the open discussion and brain-storming regarding the oil
temps, oil cooler location, etc.
Keep it going!
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
"Tim Dawson-Townsend of Avidyne fame is now at Aurora Flight Sciences."
You might like some of the other vehicles that we have in development
(www.aurora.aero <http://www.aurora.aero/> ).
And then there's the vehicles that we can't talk about . . . : )
I'm hoping to find an extra gyro camera ball with laser target
designator at work that I can hang on the RV-10 . . .
But to share the glory, Jim McGrew on the list has first-hand Predator
experience (and F-15s, natch)
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
Aurora Flight Sciences
tdt@aurora.aero
617-401-2522
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
I have also been meaning to ask about synthetic oil. I have read posts on
advrider.com about people switching to synthetic oil and seeing lower oil t
emperatures on their air-cooled BMW bikes. =0AHas anyone had a similar exp
erience? I now have 160 hours on my engine and I am planning on switching
to synthetic on my next change. =0A =0AScott Schmidt=0Ascottmschmidt@yahoo
.com =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: John W. Cox <johnwcox@
pacificnw.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 6
:04:49 PM=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: High Oil Temps=0A=0A=0AThe archives are
full of the posted problem causes and correction possibilities to this dil
emma. I forwarded to Tim a great On Demand Video series from Lycoming on t
he importance of oil and its handling to be placed at RV University. It is
worth your time to review. Keep your oil level UP.=0A =0A1. There
was, is and will remain to be several factors affecting unusual operating t
emperatures. The first point is that aluminum engine components do not lik
e high temperatures. I have a lower threshold for acceptable operating tem
perature than several readers so I will not expound or rehash.=0A =0A2.
The aircraft in a =93High Alpha=94 or High angle of attack configuration
changes the flow (negatively) into the forward cooling openings and change
s the relative airflow over and extraction of discharged heat in the lower
cowl (out the bottom). Draw yourself an airflow diagram and you will see h
ow bends and contortions make little sense.=0A =0A3. The material use
d in transporting High Pressure /Lower temperature ambient airflow to the
oil heat exchanger is of importance. I was hopeful that a few HVAC special
ist would pipe up on the obvious area for improvement in the VAN designed S
cat system. =0A =0A4. Dan Checkoway has posted the value in improved
flow heat exchangers and the inherent cracking of exchanger mounts as desi
gned and plans built ' the baffle material takes a tremendous shock ' s
o DSS balance your engine (and your avionics will love you too). Learn fro
m Dan=92s posts too.=0A =0AAnswer to #1. Reduce the number of constricting
90 degree duct bends by creating your own ' improved airflow duct system
. Consider leaving the cheap, available and easy to buy Scat tubing and co
nsider a two BID composite smooth wall distribution plenum. To keep your t
emperatures lower, move to a more temperate locale like one that rains freq
uently and has little sunlight. I am a strong proponent of Forsling Exhaus
t and ceramic coating them ( ie. Scott Schmidt).=0A =0AAnswer to #2, choose
to keep guys like me out of the back seat and keep your nose low in a low
and passive state of climb - under 115 knots. (that is NOT why I bought th
e RV-10). I want to climb like a bandit and get out of Dodge in a hurry. Y
ou can design that feature back into your cowl and your airflow distributio
n system ' Simply.=0A =0AAnswer #3 Insulate your composite duct To and Fr
om the heat exchanger.=0A =0AAnswer #4 Get a more efficient exchanger while
you are doing mods as Dan did.=0A =0ANow back to the diatribe. Three 90 d
egree elbows (that equals 270 degrees of contortion) and trying to force th
e Heat Exchanger duct forward into a direct opposition of high pressure 115
mph air /heated flow downward and aft from over the cylinder fins is not
=93brilliant aerodynamic design=94. Think about trying to blow into a 2.5
=94 scat tube sticking out the window of your car at 100 mph. Take it upon
yourself to create a mount bracket and exchanger orientation which works at
the most important time ' Climb configuration. Consider studying why th
e James High Pressure Induction Plenum can be of value over a plans built v
ariant. Again, my past posts stated that cooling is enhanced by Delta P an
d Delta T. Pressure Differential and Temperature Differential between the
upper and lower decks. I am not a proponent of solely the louvers but they
are a half hearted attempt at a correction for a known problem. Design th
e direction and capture of ambient airflow for the =91High
Alpha=92 configuration. Draw a simple cartoon of the airflow path into an
d out of your aircraft while in High Alpha ' again think about blowing ou
t the window of your cabin. Cruise configuration will take care of itself.
Assist the flow with logical and smooth curves into and out of the exchan
ger. If doing louvers, then make them so they are designed for High Alpha
orientation. Yes, the positive pressure increases on the bottom (the more
reduced pressure of the lower cowl negates) against the change over the top
(when in High Alpha). This reduces, negates or defeats the affective extr
action of convective airflow in comparison to cruise. Hence ' augmenters
.=0A =0AKeep your oil clean and up to the right level. Keep building.=0A
=0A =0AJohn Cox #600 in 2015 or about. (Oh and I do have a CHT number for
=93Houston we have a problem=94 ) Kelly this is your cue to pipe in here!
=0A =0APS ' the aluminum can talk back and top ends are expensive but tha
t is what maintenance is for=85 right? I also like the ability to run LOP
so I can save the fuel for ROP in High Alpha.=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-rv
10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of KiloPapa=0ASent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:30 AM=0ATo: rv10-lis
t@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: High Oil Temps=0A =0AI appreciate
the open discussion and brain-storming regarding the oil temps, oil cooler
location, etc.=0AKeep it going!=0A =0AKevin=0A40494=0Atail/empennage=0A
=0Ado not archive=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navi
================
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
I did see a slight drop at 100 hours when I went to Exxon Elite from
Philips. I don't think anyone recommends a full synthetic for the
aircraft engines as far as I know, but the synthetic blends have a
good reputation.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> I have also been meaning to ask about synthetic oil. I have read posts
> on advrider.com about people switching to synthetic oil and seeing lower
> oil temperatures on their air-cooled BMW bikes.
> Has anyone had a similar experience? I now have 160 hours on my engine
> and I am planning on switching to synthetic on my next change.
>
> Scott Schmidt
> scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John W. Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 6:04:49 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
>
> The archives are full of the posted problem causes and correction
> possibilities to this dilemma. I forwarded to Tim a great On Demand
> Video series from Lycoming on the importance of oil and its handling to
> be placed at RV University. It is worth your time to review. Keep your
> oil level UP.
>
>
>
> 1. There was, is and will remain to be several factors affecting
> unusual operating temperatures. The first point is that aluminum engine
> components do not like high temperatures. I have a lower threshold for
> acceptable operating temperature than several readers so I will not
> expound or rehash.
>
>
>
> 2. The aircraft in a High Alpha or High angle of attack
> configuration changes the flow (negatively) into the forward cooling
> openings and changes the relative airflow over and extraction of
> discharged heat in the lower cowl (out the bottom). Draw yourself an
> airflow diagram and you will see how bends and contortions make little
> sense.
>
>
>
> 3. The material used in transporting High Pressure /Lower
> temperature ambient airflow to the oil heat exchanger is of importance.
> I was hopeful that a few HVAC specialist would pipe up on the obvious
> area for improvement in the VAN designed Scat system.
>
>
>
> 4. Dan Checkoway has posted the value in improved flow heat
> exchangers and the inherent cracking of exchanger mounts as designed and
> plans built the baffle material takes a tremendous shock so DSS
> balance your engine (and your avionics will love you too). Learn from
> Dans posts too.
>
>
>
> Answer to #1. Reduce the number of constricting 90 degree duct bends by
> creating your own improved airflow duct system. Consider leaving the
> cheap, available and easy to buy Scat tubing and consider a two BID
> composite smooth wall distribution plenum. To keep your temperatures
> lower, move to a more temperate locale like one that rains frequently
> and has little sunlight. I am a strong proponent of Forsling Exhaust
> and ceramic coating them ( ie. Scott Schmidt).
>
>
>
> Answer to #2, choose to keep guys like me out of the back seat and keep
> your nose low in a low and passive state of climb - under 115 knots.
> (that is NOT why I bought the RV-10). I want to climb like a bandit and
> get out of Dodge in a hurry. You can design that feature back into your
> cowl and your airflow distribution system Simply.
>
>
>
> Answer #3 Insulate your composite duct To and From the heat exchanger.
>
>
>
> Answer #4 Get a more efficient exchanger while you are doing mods as Dan
> did.
>
>
>
> Now back to the diatribe. Three 90 degree elbows (that equals 270
> degrees of contortion) and trying to force the Heat Exchanger duct
> forward into a direct opposition of high pressure 115 mph air /heated
> flow downward and aft from over the cylinder fins is not brilliant
> aerodynamic design. Think about trying to blow into a 2.5 scat tube
> sticking out the window of your car at 100 mph. Take it upon yourself to
> create a mount bracket and exchanger orientation which works at the most
> important time _Climb configuration_. Consider studying why the James
> High Pressure Induction Plenum can be of value over a plans built
> variant. Again, my past posts stated that cooling is enhanced by Delta
> P and Delta T. Pressure Differential and Temperature Differential
> between the upper and lower decks. I am not a proponent of solely the
> louvers but they are a half hearted attempt at a correction for a known
> problem. Design the direction and capture of ambient airflow for the
> High Alpha configuration. Draw a simple cartoon of the airflow path
> into and out of your aircraft while in High Alpha again think about
> blowing out the window of your cabin. Cruise configuration will take
> care of itself. Assist the flow with logical and smooth curves into and
> out of the exchanger. If doing louvers, then make them so they are
> designed for High Alpha orientation. Yes, the positive pressure
> increases on the bottom (the more reduced pressure of the lower cowl
> negates) against the change over the top (when in High Alpha). This
> reduces, negates or defeats the affective extraction of convective
> airflow in comparison to cruise. Hence augmenters.
>
>
>
> Keep your oil clean and up to the right level. Keep building.
>
>
>
>
>
> John Cox #600 in 2015 or about. (Oh and I do have a CHT number for
> Houston we have a problem ) Kelly this is your cue to pipe in here!
>
>
>
> PS the aluminum can talk back and top ends are expensive but that is
> what maintenance is for right? I also like the ability to run LOP so I
> can save the fuel for ROP in High Alpha.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *KiloPapa
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:30 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: High Oil Temps
>
>
>
> I appreciate the open discussion and brain-storming regarding the oil
> temps, oil cooler location, etc.
>
> Keep it going!
>
>
>
> Kevin
> 40494
> tail/empennage
>
>
>
> do not archive
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *"http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://forums==================
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
"And then there=92s the vehicles that we can=92t talk about . . . : )" -
Tim (see below)=0A=0AOk, but we may not share our oil cooling secrets with
you! =0A =0AScott Schmidt=0Ascottmschmidt@yahoo.com=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Origi
nal Message ----=0AFrom: "tdawson-townsend@aurora.aero" <tdawson-townsend@a
urora.aero>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 9:45
:03 PM=0ASubject: RV10-List: UAVs=0A=0A=0A=93Tim Dawson-Townsend of Avidyne
fame is now at Aurora Flight Sciences.=94=0A =0AYou might like some of the
other vehicles that we have in development (www.aurora.aero).=0A =0AAnd th
en there=92s the vehicles that we can=92t talk about . . . : )=0A =0AI
=92m hoping to find an extra gyro camera ball with laser target designator
at work that I can hang on the RV-10 . . .=0A =0ABut to share the glory, Ji
m McGrew on the list has first-hand Predator experience (and F-15s, natch)
=0A =0ATDT=0A =0A =0ATim Dawson-Townsend=0AAurora Flight Sciences=0Atdt@aur
=========================0A
-========================
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV10-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete RV10-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains RV10-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV10-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV10-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
rv10-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "rv10-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the RV10-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the RV10-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv10-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV10-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV10-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* RV10-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the RV10-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* RV10-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the RV10-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV10
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV10-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV10-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV10-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV10-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV10-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV10-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|