Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:39 AM - Flaps (Sam Marlow)
2. 05:54 AM - Re: Flaps (Rene Felker)
3. 06:04 AM - Re: Flaps (Tim Olson)
4. 06:04 AM - Re: Flaps (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
5. 06:35 AM - Re: Flaps (Jesse Saint)
6. 06:54 AM - Re: Flaps (linn Walters)
7. 07:28 AM - Re: Flaps (JSMcGrew@aol.com)
8. 07:39 AM - Re: Flaps (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
9. 07:42 AM - Baggage door lock arm (Jay Brinkmeyer)
10. 07:53 AM - Re: Flaps (Jesse Saint)
11. 07:54 AM - Re: Baggage door lock arm (Deems Davis)
12. 08:05 AM - Re: Flaps (Tim Olson)
13. 08:23 AM - Re: Baggage door lock arm (Scott Schmidt)
14. 08:24 AM - Re: Flaps (John Jessen)
15. 08:33 AM - Re: Flaps (Tim Olson)
16. 09:39 AM - Re: Flaps (dougpflyrv@aol.com)
17. 09:56 AM - Re: Flaps (Tim Olson)
18. 11:06 AM - Re: Flaps (Jesse Saint)
19. 11:29 AM - Re: Batterydied (Steven Roberts)
20. 11:40 AM - Re: Flaps (Robert)
21. 12:26 PM - Re: Flaps (Scott Schmidt)
22. 01:24 PM - Re: Flaps (jsmcgrew@aol.com)
23. 01:36 PM - Nose wheel pant/tow bar bolts (Rick)
24. 01:55 PM - Re: Nose wheel pant/tow bar bolts (Bobby J. Hughes)
25. 03:13 PM - Re: Establishing gross weight (Niko)
26. 03:15 PM - Auto Pilot for sale (Jesse Saint)
27. 03:30 PM - Re: Establishing gross weight (James Hein)
28. 03:41 PM - Re: Establishing gross weight (Rick)
29. 04:12 PM - Re: Flaps (Sam Marlow)
30. 04:15 PM - Re: Flaps (Sam Marlow)
31. 04:23 PM - Re: Flaps (Sam Marlow)
32. 05:00 PM - Re: [Bearhawk] OT-Cutty Sark Burning (Tim C)
33. 07:20 PM - Re: Flaps (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
34. 07:54 PM - Re: Establishing gross weight (John W. Cox)
35. 09:11 PM - Re: Flaps (Tim Olson)
36. 09:55 PM - Re: Flaps (John Gonzalez)
Message 1
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I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the
flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
Still wiring
Message 2
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I am using the one from Vans. But I am not flying yet.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
801-721-6080
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 6:39 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Flaps
I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the flaps
are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
Still wiring
Message 3
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There are some who are doing other various things, but, the
average is to just buy that system and the installation is
pretty straightforward and simple. I haven't really found
the need for any more than the flap positions that are provided
by using that system.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Sam Marlow wrote:
> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the
> flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
> Thanks,
> Sam Marlow
> Still wiring
>
> *
Message 4
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Here are your main two options:
http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&b
rowse=airframe&product=fps
I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up with
your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be using a POS-1
2 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Flaps
I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just wonderi
ng what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the flaps are d
ifferent than any airplane I've ever flown.
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
Still wiring
Message 5
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The FPS is fantastic. No indicator needed. Just hit the button and let
them go to the next position. It's good to have a switch with momentary
down but not momentary up, so when you want to put them up you just flip the
switch up and they go all the way up. If you have the switch on your stick
grip, it is also nice to have your thumb hit the switch from time to time
accidentally and realize that it is up. It gives you the comfortable
feeling that you know your flaps are all the way up, not set for climb.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Flaps
I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the flaps
are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
Still wiring
Message 6
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Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your Mark-1
eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck bones of
an owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close to what
you want (or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud here.
Linn
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Here are your main two options:
>
>
>
> http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
>
>
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps
> <http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps>
>
>
>
> I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up
> with your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be
> using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
>
>
>
> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> -10 #352 Limbo
>
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the
> flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
> Thanks,
> Sam Marlow
> Still wiring
>
>
>
>
>
>; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
>_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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You can see the left flap just fine out the pilot side window without
craning your neck (during the daytime, that is). I used the optional flap
positioning system from Van's and a POS-12 sensor to indicate position on my Advanced
Flight Systems AF-2500. Sometimes it is tough to visually tell the difference
between the takeoff position and full up since it's only ~2 deg. The
difference between 1/2 and full flaps is obvious, however, I would think that it
would be difficult to consistently set the flaps to any particular setting
(other than full up or down) by eyeballing it. This would be even harder at night.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but from my own experience I typically have
more important things to be doing when I'm on approach besides counting
seconds on the flaps, eyeballing the position and/or wondering what the flare is
going to feel like with the estimated flap setting I just selected.
-Jim
40134
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
_http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew_ (http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew)
In a message dated 5/21/2007 9:56:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net writes:
Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your Mark-1 eyeballs
on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck bones of an owl??? Does
the 'counting seconds' method of coming close to what you want (or are used
to) not work?? Just wondering out loud here.
Linn
do not archive
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 8
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Nothing stopping you from doing that. I was making an assumption that that
wasn't sufficient for something like an IFR environment.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not flyi
ng yet, is there something that prevents you from using your Mark-1 eyeball
s on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck bones of an owl???
Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close to what you want (or are
used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud here.
Linn
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
Here are your main two options:
http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&b
rowse=airframe&product=fps
I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up with
your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be using a POS-1
2 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Marlow
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Flaps
I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just wonderi
ng what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the flaps are d
ifferent than any airplane I've ever flown.
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
Still wiring
; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ
,
_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; <http://w
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Baggage door lock arm |
I hung my baggage door yesterday with some success... It's in pretty straight
and I was able to use the seamer to slightly bend the top and bottom edges to
match the fuse skins. However, the lock arm is too short to engage the catch
hole (it only sticks out about 1/2" from the door). Here's the lock (from
Aircraft Spruce) I'm using...
ACS DOOR AND BAGGAGE LOCK SETS
P/N 11-01600 $26.60
The door and baggage locks furnished with the ignition switches above are also
available separately. Set of two locks (one door and one baggage lock)
furnished with one key mated to both locks. The baggage lock may be used as
second door lock if preferred.
Has anyone else run into this issue? If so, how did you work around it? Is it
possible to purchase a longer lock arm? What source?
Regards,
Jay
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
Message 10
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I would think that when in IMC and focusing on getting to the ground, not
having to count seconds would be a great way to lighten the workload on the
pilot and keep his attention to the needles (or monitoring the Auto Pilot).
In most conditions it wouldn't make much difference, but it is nice to not
have to count. When you have flown for a while you can feel the change when
you lower the flaps with the FPS and know where they are (ie. 0, 15, or 30).
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your Mark-1
eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck bones of an
owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close to what you want
(or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud here.
Linn
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
Here are your main two options:
http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378
<http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&bro
wse=airframe&product=fps> &browse=airframe&product=fps
I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up with
your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be using a POS-12
from Ray Allen for this purpose.
http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Flaps
I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the flaps
are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
Still wiring
; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> - NEW MATRONICS WEB
FO; http://forums.matronics.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage door lock arm |
If I recall accurately, there is a substitute longer arm that come in
the kit.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Jay Brinkmeyer wrote:
> Is it
> possible to purchase a longer lock arm? What source?
>
> Regards,
> Jay
>
>
>
Message 12
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I typically don't add flaps until the runway is in sight in
the RV-10, due to the speed limitation. 90kts is a great
approach speed. Unfortunately, 87kts is max on the flaps.
So unless you're willing to have a target airspeed of
80 or 85kts, you really won't use flaps for most of the approach.
In fact, if it were a low approach, I would probably only
bother with 1 notch of flaps or perhaps none, because you
wouldn't have the time to deal with it all in the last couple
hundred feet. And, if you have 500' ceilings, you would
likely have the chance to throw in a notch or even two
with visual contact.
I totally agree that slow approach speeds are helpful to
keep you from being overwhelmed with the approach. Unfortunately,
an 87kt limit on the flaps just isn't ideal for what we're
trying to accomplish here. IMHO, that's the one single
thing I can note about the RV-10 for IMC flying that's kind
of a downer. With a flap speed of 100kts, this would be
a non-issue.
Also, given the instruments I'm flying, even a stressful
approach leaves me with enough comfort where it wouldn't
be a big deal to do one over-the-shoulder check of flap
position.
So I find no need for a flap position indicator. I am not
discouraging anyone from having one, but just stating that
I really don't see it as a big benefit. Even the old
Johnson bar plane I used to fly, you really had to pull
the lever sometimes to feel that you had it clicked into
one position or the other, so not having an indicator isn't
something that is all that abnormal.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Nothing stopping you from doing that. I was making an assumption that
> that wasnt sufficient for something like an IFR environment.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *linn Walters
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 8:52 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
> flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your Mark-1
> eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck bones of
> an owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close to what
> you want (or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud here.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> Here are your main two options:
>
>
>
> http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
>
>
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps
> <http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps>
>
>
>
> Im going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up
> with your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be using
> a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
>
>
>
> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> -10 #352 Limbo
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam Marlow
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the
> flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
> Thanks,
> Sam Marlow
> Still wiring
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> *_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> *_; --> http://www.matronics.nbsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage door lock arm |
The longer arm should have come with the kit.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:40:17 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Baggage door lock arm
I hung my baggage door yesterday with some success... It's in pretty straight
and I was able to use the seamer to slightly bend the top and bottom edges to
match the fuse skins. However, the lock arm is too short to engage the catch
hole (it only sticks out about 1/2" from the door). Here's the lock (from
Aircraft Spruce) I'm using...
ACS DOOR AND BAGGAGE LOCK SETS
P/N 11-01600 $26.60
The door and baggage locks furnished with the ignition switches above are also
available separately. Set of two locks (one door and one baggage lock)
furnished with one key mated to both locks. The baggage lock may be used as
second door lock if preferred.
Has anyone else run into this issue? If so, how did you work around it? Is it
possible to purchase a longer lock arm? What source?
Regards,
Jay
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
Message 14
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|
The Johnson bar was your indicator.
Really? 87 knots before flaps! Have you been on approach when the
controller has asked you to keep your speed up? Any issues slowing down?
John Jessen
328
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
I typically don't add flaps until the runway is in sight in the RV-10, due
to the speed limitation. 90kts is a great approach speed. Unfortunately,
87kts is max on the flaps.
So unless you're willing to have a target airspeed of 80 or 85kts, you
really won't use flaps for most of the approach.
In fact, if it were a low approach, I would probably only bother with 1
notch of flaps or perhaps none, because you wouldn't have the time to deal
with it all in the last couple hundred feet. And, if you have 500'
ceilings, you would likely have the chance to throw in a notch or even two
with visual contact.
I totally agree that slow approach speeds are helpful to keep you from being
overwhelmed with the approach. Unfortunately, an 87kt limit on the flaps
just isn't ideal for what we're trying to accomplish here. IMHO, that's the
one single thing I can note about the RV-10 for IMC flying that's kind of a
downer. With a flap speed of 100kts, this would be a non-issue.
Also, given the instruments I'm flying, even a stressful approach leaves me
with enough comfort where it wouldn't be a big deal to do one
over-the-shoulder check of flap position.
So I find no need for a flap position indicator. I am not discouraging
anyone from having one, but just stating that I really don't see it as a big
benefit. Even the old Johnson bar plane I used to fly, you really had to
pull the lever sometimes to feel that you had it clicked into one position
or the other, so not having an indicator isn't something that is all that
abnormal.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Nothing stopping you from doing that. I was making an assumption that
> that wasn't sufficient for something like an IFR environment.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *linn
> Walters
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 8:52 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
> flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your
> Mark-1 eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck
> bones of an owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close
> to what you want (or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud
here.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> Here are your main two options:
>
>
>
> http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
>
>
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-37
> 8&browse=airframe&product=fps
> <http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-3
> 78&browse=airframe&product=fps>
>
>
>
> I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up
> with your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be
> using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
>
>
>
> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> -10 #352 Limbo
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam
> Marlow
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the
> flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
> Thanks,
> Sam Marlow
> Still wiring
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
>
> *_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
>
> *_; --> http://www.matronics.nbsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 15
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Jesse's right here. I was just teaching my wife landings
a week or so ago. It goes like this:
Hit the flap switch to bring them to zero from -3....no change.
Ok, add one notch of flaps....ok, retrim for the pitch change.
Now, add one more notch....big pitch change, retrim.
You definitely know when you go full flaps, and going from
reflex to zero really is not generally noticeable and you
could do that during the very initial part of the approach.
So once you've initiated the flap extension, you really are
only dealing with one notch of flaps where you have to check
to know where you're at, and that's the initial one when
it goes to zero from reflex. You could do this while
20miles out and then the rest would be too easy to worry
about.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Jesse Saint wrote:
> I would think that when in IMC and focusing on getting to the ground,
> not having to count seconds would be a great way to lighten the workload
> on the pilot and keep his attention to the needles (or monitoring the
> Auto Pilot). In most conditions it wouldnt make much difference, but
> it is nice to not have to count. When you have flown for a while you
> can feel the change when you lower the flaps with the FPS and know where
> they are (ie. 0, 15, or 30).
>
>
Message 16
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ARE U FOLKS WITH FLYING 10'S ACTUALLY GAINING ANY SPEED WITH THE REFLEX FLAP
SETTING?
THANKS,
DOUG PRESTON
40372
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim@MyRV10.com
Sent: Mon, 21 May 2007 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
Jesse's right here. I was just teaching my wife landings
a week or so ago. It goes like this:
Hit the flap switch to bring them to zero from -3....no change.
Ok, add one notch of flaps....ok, retrim for the pitch change.
Now, add one more notch....big pitch change, retrim.
You definitely know when you go full flaps, and going from
reflex to zero really is not generally noticeable and you
could do that during the very initial part of the approach.
So once you've initiated the flap extension, you really are
only dealing with one notch of flaps where you have to check
to know where you're at, and that's the initial one when
it goes to zero from reflex. You could do this while
20miles out and then the rest would be too easy to worry
about.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Jesse Saint wrote:
> I would think that when in IMC and focusing on getting to the ground, > no
t having to count seconds would be a great way to lighten the workload > on
the pilot and keep his attention to the needles (or monitoring the > Auto Pi
lot). In most conditions it wouldn=99t make much difference, but > it
is nice to not have to count. When you have flown for a while you > can feel
the change when you lower the flaps with the FPS and know where > they are
(ie. 0, 15, or 30).
> >
===========
===========
===========
________________________________________________________________________
AOL at AOL.com.
Message 17
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Good question...but one that I don't have an answer for. Maybe
I'll just have to test that some day.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
dougpflyrv@aol.com wrote:
> ARE U FOLKS WITH FLYING 10'S ACTUALLY GAINING ANY SPEED WITH THE REFLEX
> FLAP SETTING?
> THANKS,
> DOUG PRESTON
> 40372
>
>
Message 18
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It has a "placebo" type speed gain if nothing else, but I would say that we
have seen a speed gain, but haven't taken the time to actually measure the
difference.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
Good question...but one that I don't have an answer for. Maybe
I'll just have to test that some day.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
dougpflyrv@aol.com wrote:
> ARE U FOLKS WITH FLYING 10'S ACTUALLY GAINING ANY SPEED WITH THE REFLEX
> FLAP SETTING?
> THANKS,
> DOUG PRESTON
> 40372
>
>
Message 19
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I recommend the Power On Board Smart Battery Charger. I have the model
VEC1095APOB with up to 25 amp charge and 75 amp start. Sam's Club sells
these for about $60.
These chargers are amazing, and have settings for most lead-acid battery
types. They weigh just a few pounds and include automatic charge rates,
volt/amp meter, battery diagnostics and desulfation.
The failure mode for new lead-acid batteries that sit unused for a month
or two without charge/discharge cycling is usually sulfation of the
plates. This battery charger has a 'desulfation' setting that applies a
high frequency to the battery that reverses the process. Be sure to
disconnect the battery from the vehicle first. Heavily sulfated
batteries may need a week or more of 'desulfation', and some may be
irreverseable. The failure mode for older batteries tends to be plate
erosion and there is no cure for that. A battery tender will prevent
sulfation in addition to maintaining a full charge.
Many of the newer battery chargers have the desulfation feature, but
most cost much more. Jim Weir wrote an article in Kitplanes a few years
ago about how to build one if you want to take the time away from the
RV-10.
Steve Roberts
Still lurking
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Edgerton
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 4:08 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Batterydied
I made a post yesterday that my battery died and wouldn't start the
plane. It did die but I said it was an Odyssey but it actual is a
Concorde RG25XC. I bought this battery in Feb this year and when I went
to start the plane yesterday for the first time it was DOA. I charged it
slow charge overnight, which made no change in it's cranking power.
In talking to the people at TexAir they said that you don't want to
buy this battery and let it set because it will go bad like mine did.
They never seem to tell you that type of stuff up front do they.
Just an FYI for those like me who got a battery in advance of first
start.
Message 20
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The controller should not ask you nor are you expected to keep your speed up beyond
a stabilized approach speed when you are inside of the FAF. Keeping the
speed up above stabilized approach speed inside of this is and should be at your
discretion.
The Johnson bar was your indicator.
Really? 87 knots before flaps! Have you been on approach when the
controller has asked you to keep your speed up? Any issues slowing down?
John Jessen
328
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
I typically don't add flaps until the runway is in sight in the RV-10, due
to the speed limitation. 90kts is a great approach speed. Unfortunately,
87kts is max on the flaps.
So unless you're willing to have a target airspeed of 80 or 85kts, you
really won't use flaps for most of the approach.
In fact, if it were a low approach, I would probably only bother with 1
notch of flaps or perhaps none, because you wouldn't have the time to deal
with it all in the last couple hundred feet. And, if you have 500'
ceilings, you would likely have the chance to throw in a notch or even two
with visual contact.
I totally agree that slow approach speeds are helpful to keep you from being
overwhelmed with the approach. Unfortunately, an 87kt limit on the flaps
just isn't ideal for what we're trying to accomplish here. IMHO, that's the
one single thing I can note about the RV-10 for IMC flying that's kind of a
downer. With a flap speed of 100kts, this would be a non-issue.
Also, given the instruments I'm flying, even a stressful approach leaves me
with enough comfort where it wouldn't be a big deal to do one
over-the-shoulder check of flap position.
So I find no need for a flap position indicator. I am not discouraging
anyone from having one, but just stating that I really don't see it as a big
benefit. Even the old Johnson bar plane I used to fly, you really had to
pull the lever sometimes to feel that you had it clicked into one position
or the other, so not having an indicator isn't something that is all that
abnormal.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Nothing stopping you from doing that. I was making an assumption that
> that wasn't sufficient for something like an IFR environment.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *linn
> Walters
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 8:52 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
> flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your
> Mark-1 eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck
> bones of an owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close
> to what you want (or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud
here.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> Here are your main two options:
>
>
>
> http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
>
>
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-37
> 8&browse=airframe&product=fps
> > 78&browse=airframe&product=fps>
>
>
>
> I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up
> with your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be
> using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
>
>
>
> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> -10 #352 Limbo
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam
> Marlow
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the
> flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
> Thanks,
> Sam Marlow
> Still wiring
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
>
> *_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO;
http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
>
> *_; --> http://www.matronics.nbsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO;
http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 21
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I remember one of the first RV-10's that were completed had their flaps rigged
wrong. They were having a difficult time reaching much above 200 mph and they
found that the flaps were actually not fully re-flexed. Once this was fixed,
there was a noticeable increase in speed. This was discussed in the RV-10 forum
at Oshkosh in 2004 I believe. One thing I have noticed is that my ailerons
are actually lower than my flaps in cruise flight but are perfect on the ground.
The flap hits the rear spar only on half the flap due to the doubler. The
low pressure on top of the flap then pulls the flap up about 1/4" higher than
the aileron. I have been meaning to raise my ailerons by 1/8" to see if there
is an increase in speed but haven't had time to play with it yet.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 9:56:09 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
Good question...but one that I don't have an answer for. Maybe
I'll just have to test that some day.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
dougpflyrv@aol.com wrote:
> ARE U FOLKS WITH FLYING 10'S ACTUALLY GAINING ANY SPEED WITH THE REFLEX
> FLAP SETTING?
> THANKS,
> DOUG PRESTON
> 40372
>
>
Message 22
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I don't have the wheel pants on yet, and I typically cruise around 150 KTA
S with 23 squared. I left the flaps in the takeoff setting once and saw abou
t 140 KTAS once I set up in cruise. When I noticed my mistake, I raised the
flaps to the reflex setting. You could audibly hear the prop unload and the
plane accelerated about 10 knots; it felt like shifting gears. On my RV-10,
the reflex setting makes a difference.
I don't have any numbers, but I can also feel the difference in the stall c
haracteristics between reflex and takeoff settings.
Jim
40134
-----Original Message-----
From: dougpflyrv@aol.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
ARE U FOLKS WITH FLYING 10'S ACTUALLY GAINING ANY SPEED WITH THE REFLEX FL
AP SETTING? THANKS, DOUG PRESTON 40372
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim@MyRV10.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, 21 May 2007 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
Jesse's right here. I was just teaching my wife landings
a week or so ago. It goes like this:
Hit the flap switch to bring them to zero from -3....no change.
Ok, add one notch of flaps....ok, retrim for the pitch change.
Now, add one more notch....big pitch change, retrim.
You definitely know when you go full flaps, and going from
reflex to zero really is not generally noticeable and you
could do that during the very initial part of the approach.
So once you've initiated the flap extension, you really are
only dealing with one notch of flaps where you have to check
to know where you're at, and that's the initial one when
it goes to zero from reflex. You could do this while
20miles out and then the rest would be too easy to worry
about.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Jesse Saint wrote:
> I would think that when in IMC and focusing on getting to the ground, > n
ot having to count seconds would be a great way to lighten the workload > on
the pilot and keep his attention to the needles (or monitoring the > Auto P
ilot). In most conditions it wouldn=99t make much difference, but > it
is nice to not have to count. When you have flown for a while you > can fee
l the change when you lower the flaps with the FPS and know where > they are
(ie. 0, 15, or 30).
> >
===========
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
/forums.matronics.com
===========
AOL at AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________
AOL at AOL.com.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Nose wheel pant/tow bar bolts |
Anyone get 3/8" x 24 x 1" cap screws instead of 1-3/4" for the wheel pant bracket
and towbar mount?
Rick S.
40185
Message 24
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| Subject: | Nose wheel pant/tow bar bolts |
I did. Van's sent new ones.
Bobby
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 2:36 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Nose wheel pant/tow bar bolts
Anyone get 3/8" x 24 x 1" cap screws instead of 1-3/4" for the wheel
pant bracket and towbar mount?
Rick S.
40185
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Establishing gross weight |
I have not been following this list lately so I am going to chime in a bit late
on this.
In reality if the C172 or any other aircraft needed structural changes or not for
a gross weight increase in not relevant to the question of can the 2700lb gross
weight be increased on the RV10. If the C172 needed a gross weight increase
then the cognizant engineers, who hopefully were very knowledgeable of the
structure and qualified, evaluated the structure and decided if something needed
to be changed or not. If the structure was overdesigned then nothing needed
to be done.
If someone is not qualified to do this then its best to just play by the rules
and stick to the 2700 lb, specially when you you will be exceeding gross weight
exactly because you have other people in it. I can tell you that I have signed
many structural drawings and analyzed many parts and I would be reluctant
do to this for myself simply because the lack of information to properly evalute
it. Van tested a wing that was built in his factory with no fatigue cycles
on it. No hard landings, no turbulence, not a couple thousand of hours of vibration
and gust loads. Is the wing any individual builder built or the quickbuilt
ones from the Phillipines as strong as what Vans crew put together for
the test article? You think they might have taken extra care knowing it will
be tested? Will another amateur built wing be able to carry the 3.8g's specially
after 2000 hrs of flying?
I am confident that Van doesn't have the anwers to some of these questions and
he has probably done little fatigue analysis on the airframe if any simply because
the cost would be prohibitive. The safety factors are there to cover the
unknowns so don't assume you have anything other than a 3.8g capability. I have
just recently pulled 3g's doing loops in a Decathalon and it feels like a
lot of load. That's a couple of SUV's sitting on your wing.
A reminder for those that are not aware, some time ago an RV8 wing broke up in
level flight with both pilots dying. Vans has said that he doesn't understand
how it happened. The wing appeared to have been built per the plans. That
should give you a comforting feeling when thinking of pushing the envelopes.
The factory RV10 had a crack in the vertical stabilizer so they needed a doubler.
Is everyone absolutely positive there is not some other weak area in the structure
that has not been discovered yet. ? What if Vans vertical tail was just
a bit stronger and didn't crack would any other builder have found the crack
during inspection? What if the crack was in a hidden area? A lot bigger airframe
designers than Vans have had problems with airplanes going out into the
field and shortly starting to develop cracks with parts failing.
Its really the same with all major mods. Mods entail a risk to begin with even
if you know what you are doing, if you don't know what you are doing and are
just guessing then you are playing with fire. A builder flying an airplane at
2900 lbs for an hour or two does not make it safe. Test aircraft are typically
instumented during flight test so that the stresses in the structure can be
compared to the predicted values and are progressively pushed to the limits while
monitoring the stresses.
Niko
----- Original Message ----
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:08:55 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Establishing gross weight
I've flown or examined most models of 172's up until the late '70s.
There are very few gross wt changes and a lot of structural changes,
some visible, some less obvious, but I doubt any of the gross wt changes
were made with no structural changes. C model upped it by 50 lbs with
shorter and stronger gear. D model had swept tail, changed fuel tanks,
upped it to 2300. No change after that for 20 years, until 1980 went to
2400 after they went to tubular gear and different variant of 160 hp
engine, different vertical fin, etc. Cessna changed the landing gear
at least 4 times after they made it a nose dragger that I know about.
They changed the wing struts at least a couple times. The tail changed
at least a couple times. Also complicating the picture is that the
plane was certified under CAR3 and many later changes were certified
under Part 23. So sum total there was less than a 10% change in gross wt
over more than 50 years of production, with over 20 variants produced,
all having some structural changes, with horsepower changes from 6 cyl
145 hp to 6 cyl 175 hp, to 4 cyl 150 hp to 4 cy 160hp to 4 cyl 180 hp to
six cyl 195 hp and 210 hp, and you think those gross wt changes were
just paper calculations? It also was produced under two different type
certificates, the second originating with the 175 that became P172, then
Cutlass and other variants with gross as high as 2550. So where is there
a year that gross changed with NO structural change? How do you know
there wasn't a change?
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
>
> What I am talking about is the changes in the gross weight without
> changing/ modifying the airframe. Research the history of the aircraft
> and you will see many gross weight changes without any modification to
> the airframe, rather extensive testing was accomplished and the gross
> weight was modified. This is what I am referring to in this situation,
> if the builder is going to change the gross weight than a test period is
> required to verify it is safe, and as the builder they are the ones that
> need to determine how much and what testing is necessary to be okay with
> the change.
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
> McMullen
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 8:25 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Establishing gross weight
>
>
>
> Not considering it took more than fifteen years to get there, totally
> different landing gear, different engine, different fuselage. Remember
> it started as the C170 in 1948, so there are a lot more changes than
> you realize. Almost nothing from 1969 on is original.
>
> On 5/18/07, Lloyd, Daniel R. <LloydDR@wernerco.com> wrote:
>
>>
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
>> Not true for all of the weight changes in the history of the 172, but
>> like you said 200 lbs is not a major increase?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
>> McMullen
>> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 8:36 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Establishing gross weight
>>
>>
>>
>> The C172 increases came with gear changes and later engine change. It
>> went from 2200 to 2300, and eventually I think 2400...not a major
>> increase. Also, the airframe was designed as a taildragger, so gear
>> and gearbox had to be designed stronger. Those weren't paper changes
>> but fully tested, and there were structural changes. Different gear
>> legs, different struts, etc.
>>
>> On 5/18/07, Lloyd, Daniel R. <LloydDR@wernerco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The venerable Cessna 172 has had its max weight increased several
>>>
>> times
>>
>>> during its life, equaling several hundred pounds and without
>>>
>> structural
>>
>>> modification. This was accomplished by continued testing and
>>>
> analyzing
>
>> the
>>
>>> results.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Auto Pilot for sale |
I may have a DigiFlight II w/ GPS-S for sale with the servos for an RV-10.
If anybody is interested, please contact me off the list.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Establishing gross weight |
>>some time ago an RV8 wing broke up in level flight with both pilots
dying. Vans has said that he doesn't understand how it happened.
NTSB Identification: *LAX98FA171 *.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please
contact Records Management Division
<http://www.ntsb.gov/info/sources.htm#pib>
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, May 24, 1998 in RIPLEY, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/31/2000
Aircraft: Vans Aircraft RV-8, registration: N58RV
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
The aircraft, equipped with dual controls, departed for a demonstration
flight with the pilot in the front seat and the pilot-rated passenger in
the back. A demonstration flight includes only low-G maneuvers. The
aircraft, designed for aerobatics, had, since its manufacture, performed
aerobatic maneuvers on previous flights. The maximum allowable gross
weight for aerobatics is 1,550 pounds. The aircraft weighed an estimated
at 1,639 pounds at the time of the accident. An agricultural pilot
reported seeing the aircraft in a shallow climb about 500 feet agl. An
eyewitness, over a mile from the accident site, heard an engine surging
and looked up. He saw a yellow aircraft flying straight and level, about
1,000 feet agl. As he watched, something fell from the aircraft, which
was followed by a loud boom. The aircraft pitched up, nosed over,
rolled, entering a spin that continued until impact. The outboard
portion of the left wing was found 0.17 miles from the crash site. The
main spar had evidence of a ductile fracture due to a positive overload.
The spar material met design specifications for metal composition and
hardness. There was no evidence of fatigue or corrosion. The outboard
section of the left wing did not exhibit any evidence of aeroelastic
divergence. A flutter test showed the aircraft design was free from
flutter to speeds above its design envelope. Wing load testing showed
the wing design was able to support a limit load, +6 g's. The wing also
supported an ultimate load, +9 g's, for 3 seconds without failure. The
Engine Management System nonvolatile memory readout provided data points
equivalent to 191 mph in level flight. Maneuvering speed under the same
conditions was 142 mph.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
cause(s) of this accident as follows:
the intentional or unintentional sudden application of aft elevator
control by an undetermined aircraft occupant that exceeded the design
stress limits of the aircraft. The aircraft gross weight, which exceeded
the maximum allowable for aerobatics, and airspeed, which exceeded the
maximum maneuvering speed for the weight, were factors in this accident.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Establishing gross weight |
That is the most sombering reply to this post yet...
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
Message 29
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I thought the flaps were suppose to be at "0" for climb and -3 for cruise?
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> The FPS is fantastic. No indicator needed. Just hit the button and let
> them go to the next position. Its good to have a switch with
> momentary down but not momentary up, so when you want to put them up
> you just flip the switch up and they go all the way up. If you have
> the switch on your stick grip, it is also nice to have your thumb hit
> the switch from time to time accidentally and realize that it is up.
> It gives you the comfortable feeling that you know your flaps are all
> the way up, not set for climb.
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
> jesse@saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
>
> www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com>
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam Marlow
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 8:39 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Flaps
>
> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the
> flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
> Thanks,
> Sam Marlow
> Still wiring
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
> **
> **
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> **
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 30
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The way I understand is, half flaps for takeoff, (15'), "0" for climb,
and -3 for cruise. If the flaps are up all the way, it could degrade the
climb performance.
linn Walters wrote:
> Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
> flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your
> Mark-1 eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck
> bones of an owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close
> to what you want (or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud here.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>>
>> Here are your main two options:
>>
>> http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
>>
>> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps
>> <http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps>
>>
>> Im going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come
>> up with your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be
>> using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
>>
>> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
>>
>> Michael Sausen
>>
>> -10 #352 Limbo
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam Marlow
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RV10-List: Flaps
>>
>> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
>> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all,
>> the flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
>> Thanks,
>> Sam Marlow
>> Still wiring
>>
>> * *
>> * *
>> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>> *_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.com*
>> * *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 31
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Tell me Jesse, are you calling "0" actually "0" or is that the -3 degree
position.
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> I would think that when in IMC and focusing on getting to the ground,
> not having to count seconds would be a great way to lighten the
> workload on the pilot and keep his attention to the needles (or
> monitoring the Auto Pilot). In most conditions it wouldn't make much
> difference, but it is nice to not have to count. When you have flown
> for a while you can feel the change when you lower the flaps with the
> FPS and know where they are (ie. 0, 15, or 30).
>
>
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
> jesse@saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
>
> www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com>
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *linn Walters
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 9:52 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
> flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your
> Mark-1 eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck
> bones of an owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close
> to what you want (or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud
> here.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> Here are your main two options:
>
>
>
> http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
>
>
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps
> <http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps>
>
>
>
> I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up
> with your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be
> using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
>
>
>
> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> -10 #352 Limbo
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam Marlow
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>
> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the
> flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
> Thanks,
> Sam Marlow
> Still wiring
>
> * *
> * *
> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> *_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.com*
> * *
> * *
> * *
> * *
>
>
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
> **
> **
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> **
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: [Bearhawk] OT-Cutty Sark Burning |
Budd, one of the RV-10 list was just there some nice Cutty Shark Pics pics>
Left thumbnails bottom>
http://www.brinkmeyers.net/Photos/Family/London/index.html
Tim C
Cold Lk.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Budd Davisson" <buddairbum@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] OT-Cutty Sark Burning
> You're right: a bummer all the way around. Icons should be forever.
>
>
> On 5/21/07 1:18 PM, "husser2000" <husser2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Not only has Bo Diddly suffered a stroke, but the Cutty Sark was nearly
> > destroyed today in a fire. What a crumy two weeks, GA user fees
> > should top this off nicely.
> >
> > http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1266631,00.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bearhawk/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bearhawk/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <*> To change settings via email:
> mailto:Bearhawk-digest@yahoogroups.com
> mailto:Bearhawk-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Bearhawk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
Message 33
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During transition training we took off with zero flaps, and had no
issues climbing in excess of 2k a minute at 120mph
Dan
N289DT Finishing the cowl for the RV10E install
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
The way I understand is, half flaps for takeoff, (15'), "0" for climb,
and -3 for cruise. If the flaps are up all the way, it could degrade the
climb performance.
linn Walters wrote:
> Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
> flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your
> Mark-1 eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck
> bones of an owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close
> to what you want (or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud
here.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>>
>> Here are your main two options:
>>
>> http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
>>
>>
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&
browse=airframe&product=fps
>>
<http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378
&browse=airframe&product=fps>
>>
>> I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come
>> up with your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be
>> using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
>>
>> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
>>
>> Michael Sausen
>>
>> -10 #352 Limbo
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam
Marlow
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RV10-List: Flaps
>>
>> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
>> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all,
>> the flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
>> Thanks,
>> Sam Marlow
>> Still wiring
>>
>> * *
>> * *
>> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse,
Chat, FAQ,
>> *_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.co
m*
>> * *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 34
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| Subject: | Establishing gross weight |
I am the culprit who mentioned the observation of the potential for
cracks on this list, two weeks before the inspection and subsequent SB
was released by Vans. I am not a trained professional engineer but see
enough to make reasonable observations for my nightly employment.
Testing of the Amateur Built products is not as rigid or complex as for
Certified aircraft. A point which should not be lost when Pen whipping
paperwork or modifying components of someone else's design.
Fly Safe, Fly Often, seek regular recurrent training and understand why
Transition training is good for your fellow builders.
John #600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Establishing gross weight
I have not been following this list lately so I am going to chime in a
bit late on this.
In reality if the C172 or any other aircraft needed structural changes
or not for a gross weight increase in not relevant to the question of
can the 2700lb gross weight be increased on the RV10. If the C172
needed a gross weight increase then the cognizant engineers, who
hopefully were very knowledgeable of the structure and qualified,
evaluated the structure and decided if something needed to be changed or
not. If the structure was overdesigned then nothing needed to be done.
If someone is not qualified to do this then its best to just play by the
rules and stick to the 2700 lb, specially when you you will be exceeding
gross weight exactly because you have other people in it. I can tell
you that I have signed many structural drawings and analyzed many parts
and I would be reluctant do to this for myself simply because the lack
of information to properly evalute it. Van tested a wing that was built
in his factory with no fatigue cycles on it. No hard landings, no
turbulence, not a couple thousand of hours of vibration and gust loads.
Is the wing any individual builder built or the quickbuilt ones from the
Phillipines as strong as what Vans crew put together for the test
article? You think they might have taken extra care knowing it will be
tested? Will another amateur built wing be able to carry the 3.8g's
specially after 2000 hrs of flying?
I am confident that Van doesn't have the anwers to some of these
questions and he has probably done little fatigue analysis on the
airframe if any simply because the cost would be prohibitive. The
safety factors are there to cover the unknowns so don't assume you have
anything other than a 3.8g capability. I have just recently pulled 3g's
doing loops in a Decathalon and it feels like a lot of load. That's a
couple of SUV's sitting on your wing.
A reminder for those that are not aware, some time ago an RV8 wing
broke up in level flight with both pilots dying. Vans has said that he
doesn't understand how it happened. The wing appeared to have been
built per the plans. That should give you a comforting feeling when
thinking of pushing the envelopes.
The factory RV10 had a crack in the vertical stabilizer so they needed a
doubler. Is everyone absolutely positive there is not some other weak
area in the structure that has not been discovered yet. ? What if Vans
vertical tail was just a bit stronger and didn't crack would any other
builder have found the crack during inspection? What if the crack was
in a hidden area? A lot bigger airframe designers than Vans have had
problems with airplanes going out into the field and shortly starting to
develop cracks with parts failing.
Its really the same with all major mods. Mods entail a risk to begin
with even if you know what you are doing, if you don't know what you are
doing and are just guessing then you are playing with fire. A builder
flying an airplane at 2900 lbs for an hour or two does not make it safe.
Test aircraft are typically instumented during flight test so that the
stresses in the structure can be compared to the predicted values and
are progressively pushed to the limits while monitoring the stresses.
Niko
----- Original Message ----
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:08:55 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Establishing gross weight
I've flown or examined most models of 172's up until the late '70s.
There are very few gross wt changes and a lot of structural changes,
some visible, some less obvious, but I doubt any of the gross wt changes
were made with no structural changes. C model upped it by 50 lbs with
shorter and stronger gear. D model had swept tail, changed fuel tanks,
upped it to 2300. No change after that for 20 years, until 1980 went to
2400 after they went to tubular gear and different variant of 160 hp
engine, different vertical fin, etc. Cessna changed the landing gear
at least 4 times after they made it a nose dragger that I know about.
They changed the wing struts at least a couple times. The tail changed
at least a couple times. Also complicating the picture is that the
plane was certified under CAR3 and many later changes were certified
under Part 23. So sum total there was less than a 10% change in gross wt
over more than 50 years of production, with over 20 variants produced,
all having some structural changes, with horsepower changes from 6 cyl
145 hp to 6 cyl 175 hp, to 4 cyl 150 hp to 4 cy 160hp to 4 cyl 180 hp to
six cyl 195 hp and 210 hp, and you think those gross wt changes were
just paper calculations? It also was produced under two different type
certificates, the second originating with the 175 that became P172, then
Cutlass and other variants with gross as high as 2550. So where is there
a year that gross changed with NO structural change? How do you know
there wasn't a change?
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> What I am talking about is the changes in the gross weight without
> changing/ modifying the airframe. Research the history of the aircraft
> and you will see many gross weight changes without any modification to
> the airframe, rather extensive testing was accomplished and the gross
> weight was modified. This is what I am referring to in this situation,
> if the builder is going to change the gross weight than a test period
is
> required to verify it is safe, and as the builder they are the ones
that
> need to determine how much and what testing is necessary to be okay
with
> the change.
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
> McMullen
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 8:25 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Establishing gross weight
>
>
>
> Not considering it took more than fifteen years to get there, totally
> different landing gear, different engine, different fuselage. Remember
> it started as the C170 in 1948, so there are a lot more changes than
> you realize. Almost nothing from 1969 on is original.
>
> On 5/18/07, Lloyd, Daniel R. <LloydDR@wernerco.com> wrote:
>
>>
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
>> Not true for all of the weight changes in the history of the 172, but
>> like you said 200 lbs is not a major increase?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
>> McMullen
>> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 8:36 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Establishing gross weight
>>
>>
>>
>> The C172 increases came with gear changes and later engine change. It
>> went from 2200 to 2300, and eventually I think 2400...not a major
>> increase. Also, the airframe was designed as a taildragger, so gear
>> and gearbox had to be designed stronger. Those weren't paper changes
>> but fully tested, and there were structural changes. Different gear
>> legs, different struts, etc.
>>
>> On 5/18/07, Lloyd, Daniel R. <LloydDR@wernerco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The venerable Cessna 172 has had its max weight increased several
>>>
>> times
>>
Message 35
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I also use full-up to reflex for my normal takeoff and climb. If I were
in a short field situation, or had any reason to doubt my takeoff
distance, I'd use 15 flaps, but otherwise I see no real reason in
the -10 not to just leave them up for simplicity. I still climb
out very well and really don't see a need on most flights to
use flaps except for on landing.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
>
> During transition training we took off with zero flaps, and had no
> issues climbing in excess of 2k a minute at 120mph
> Dan
> N289DT Finishing the cowl for the RV10E install
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:13 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
> The way I understand is, half flaps for takeoff, (15'), "0" for climb,
> and -3 for cruise. If the flaps are up all the way, it could degrade the
>
> climb performance.
>
Message 36
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How is the quality of that James Cowl in comparison to other Van's supplied
fiberglass.
John G.
>From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Flaps
>Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 22:17:20 -0400
>
>
>During transition training we took off with zero flaps, and had no
>issues climbing in excess of 2k a minute at 120mph
>Dan
>N289DT Finishing the cowl for the RV10E install
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow
>Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:13 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flaps
>
>
>The way I understand is, half flaps for takeoff, (15'), "0" for climb,
>and -3 for cruise. If the flaps are up all the way, it could degrade the
>
>climb performance.
>
>linn Walters wrote:
> > Interesting thread. I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not
> > flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your
> > Mark-1 eyeballs on the flap .... like requiring you to have the neck
> > bones of an owl??? Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close
> > to what you want (or are used to) not work?? Just wondering out loud
>here.
> > Linn
> > do not archive
> >
> > RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> >>
> >> Here are your main two options:
> >>
> >> http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
> >>
> >>
>http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&
>browse=airframe&product=fps
> >>
><http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378
>&browse=airframe&product=fps>
> >>
> >> I'm going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come
> >> up with your own position sensor for theirs. Most people seem to be
> >> using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.
> >>
> >> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
> >>
> >> Michael Sausen
> >>
> >> -10 #352 Limbo
> >>
> >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam
>Marlow
> >> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM
> >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> >> *Subject:* RV10-List: Flaps
> >>
> >> I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just
> >> wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all,
> >> the flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.
> >> Thanks,
> >> Sam Marlow
> >> Still wiring
> >>
> >> * *
> >> * *
> >> ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse,
>Chat, FAQ,
> >> *_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO;
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>http://forums.matronics.co
>m*
> >> * *
> >> *
> >>
> >>
> >> *
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
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