Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:01 AM - Re: Fuel flow sensor (Michael Wellenzohn)
2. 05:47 AM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Jesse Saint)
3. 08:03 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Vern W. Smith)
4. 08:09 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (JSMcGrew@aol.com)
5. 08:21 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Rene Felker)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Tim Olson)
7. 08:43 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Jesse Saint)
8. 08:47 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Scott Schmidt)
9. 09:44 AM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (jim berry)
10. 10:16 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Vern W. Smith)
11. 01:52 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Don Fanning)
12. 02:27 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Randy DeBauw)
13. 06:18 PM - Re: Taking the deep questions Offline (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
14. 06:53 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Cal Hoffman)
15. 07:08 PM - Re: Taking the deep questions Offline (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
16. 07:19 PM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
17. 07:31 PM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Bill Schlatterer)
18. 07:39 PM - FS: MT Prop Gov (Neal George)
19. 08:04 PM - Re: FS: MT Prop Gov (John W. Cox)
20. 08:10 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (John W. Cox)
21. 08:26 PM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Tim Olson)
22. 08:35 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
23. 08:41 PM - Re: Gas leak (orchidman)
24. 08:52 PM - Re: FS: MT Prop Gov (LessDragProd@aol.com)
25. 09:13 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Sean Stephens)
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Subject: | Re: Fuel flow sensor |
Thanks guys for all the replies. I decided to order the sensor kit from Advanced
Flieght Systems after I had a call with them yesterday and the fuel flow sensor
comes with that.
Cheers
Michael (who quit his job to get the plane done ;-) )
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114332#114332
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Subject: | Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy |
I am 6'1" and have plenty of room. The best place to stow the visor when
not in use would be straight forward towards the windscreen. Actually, the
taller a person is, the further back their seat will be (probably), so head
room is not as much as an issue as you would think because of the slant of
the seat rails. Others, please chime in here with added info on height. I
don't think it would be an issue even if you folded it back. With the
4-axis movement, you can put the lense right up against the headliner if you
want.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
Jesse,
I am 6'3" tall and am wondering if when folded up (not in use) will the
visor become an obstruction? Do you think taller pilots/passengers heads
might bump into the visors when folded back along the roofline?
-Ben
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Subject: | The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
Tim,
Thinking of the process. Would it be much work to put a web page
together that was like eopinion, but just for efis systems? It could
list the basic facts and then have a place where individuals could give
their observation of the system. This last part would be subjective but
still informative.
Just a thought,
Vern Smith (#324)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
As far as the 17,569,293 panel combinations goes, I actually was hoping
to put together an EFIS FAB page (Features, advantages, benefits), with
perhaps a disadvantages side too. The problem is, it really takes
first-hand and pretty in depth knowledge of a system to really be able
to point out it's strengths and weaknesses.
How do you get the knowledge for all the systems?
How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on?
How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list?
Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad?
If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective?
Who in their right mind has the time for such a project?
and many more...
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Sounds like a Tim Olson job!
>
> do not archive.
>
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Subject: | Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
Tim,
Try putting up an EFIS Wiki and let us do the work.
-Jim
In a message dated 5/22/2007 8:13:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Tim@MyRV10.com writes:
How do you get the knowledge for all the systems?
How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on?
How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list?
Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad?
If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective?
Who in their right mind has the time for such a project?
and many more...
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
_http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew_ (http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew)
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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Subject: | The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
If there is enough interest, I would be willing to code and host something
like that. I am not much of a layout designer but can hack some ASP code to
make it work. But, other people would have to provide the content......
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
Tim,
Thinking of the process. Would it be much work to put a web page
together that was like eopinion, but just for efis systems? It could
list the basic facts and then have a place where individuals could give
their observation of the system. This last part would be subjective but
still informative.
Just a thought,
Vern Smith (#324)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
As far as the 17,569,293 panel combinations goes, I actually was hoping
to put together an EFIS FAB page (Features, advantages, benefits), with
perhaps a disadvantages side too. The problem is, it really takes
first-hand and pretty in depth knowledge of a system to really be able
to point out it's strengths and weaknesses.
How do you get the knowledge for all the systems?
How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on?
How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list?
Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad?
If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective?
Who in their right mind has the time for such a project?
and many more...
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Sounds like a Tim Olson job!
>
> do not archive.
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
For me personally, that would be a pretty big project, as although
I have skills in lots of areas, scripted web programming isn't
one of the big ones. Not to mention it would take some time to
put content together and post it. But, it is a good idea. I do
think you'd end up with some Looooooong replies and threads
though. I'll have to think through how I could help with this
one. I will say that I wouldn't hold your breath though, because
it could take some time. Some of those web pages I throw
together as write-ups actually take a few hours per page
to dig up the info and post. It's fun, but it's not something
that's easy to fit into a normal day and still get any sleep.
It may be that if "power users" with the various systems could
write up a common format of details about the features of their
systems, I could put a page together for each type, with a list
of features and pros and cons and limitations. Then, I could
just take any info that people mail me as additional comments
and link that as a separate text for reading. As long as it
didn't continue on updating the comments forever it would be
somewhat manageable.
We'll just have to see...
Jim's EFIS Wiki idea is good too. I just have to find
the time and a good structure for it to support all the
major EFIS systems.
For the actual Chelton owners, I made CheltonEFISpilots.com, but
that's really more of a forum for specific owners and users of
the system so once someone has made their choice there isn't
constant garbage in and out that doesn't add to the ownership/user
experience. It's too bad not every system has a private support
forum for it because once you own the product it's a great way
to get more in depth knowledge.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Vern W. Smith wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> Thinking of the process. Would it be much work to put a web page
> together that was like eopinion, but just for efis systems? It could
> list the basic facts and then have a place where individuals could give
> their observation of the system. This last part would be subjective but
> still informative.
>
> Just a thought,
>
> Vern Smith (#324)
>
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Subject: | The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
I don't think I would get a lot out of it personally since I have been
through a lot of the reviews already, but I would probably refer people to
it regularly. If the content were added by people who have flown, I think
it could be a fantastic resource for that headache-causing decision-making
process.
I would certainly give my input (good and bad) on what I have experience
with (Dynon, TruTrak, Garmin stack items)
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
If there is enough interest, I would be willing to code and host something
like that. I am not much of a layout designer but can hack some ASP code to
make it work. But, other people would have to provide the content......
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
Tim,
Thinking of the process. Would it be much work to put a web page
together that was like eopinion, but just for efis systems? It could
list the basic facts and then have a place where individuals could give
their observation of the system. This last part would be subjective but
still informative.
Just a thought,
Vern Smith (#324)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
As far as the 17,569,293 panel combinations goes, I actually was hoping
to put together an EFIS FAB page (Features, advantages, benefits), with
perhaps a disadvantages side too. The problem is, it really takes
first-hand and pretty in depth knowledge of a system to really be able
to point out it's strengths and weaknesses.
How do you get the knowledge for all the systems?
How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on?
How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list?
Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad?
If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective?
Who in their right mind has the time for such a project?
and many more...
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Sounds like a Tim Olson job!
>
> do not archive.
>
--
3:49 PM
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
The Cheltons are more than wonderful, they are amazing. I read the same article
about the IFR accidents in Aftermath and thought the same thing,"If those pilots
had Cheltons and had their flight plan in it, they would probably all be alive
today." When I fly IFR I load the 430 which then transfers all the data
over to Grand Rapids, then I load the Chelton with the flight plan. The situational
awareness of the HITS is where the Cheltons shine. I have both the Grand
Rapids and the Cheltons in my panel and if I were to do it all over again I
would put a three screen Chelton system in. Now the price difference is huge,
I paid around $10K for my Grand Rapids and the Cheltons were $27K and I still
may have to purchase the PinPoint AHRS down the road which is another $3K I think.
The Cheltons are also great for VFR flight but the Grand Rapids are just as good
for that application. It is very nice to have the HITS for VFR approaches to
unfamiliar airports especially when they have parallel runways. I like the customization
of the engine page on Grand Rapids better but it isn't that big of
a deal. I really like the support over at Grand Rapids although Chelton has
already done much better than Direct2Avionics ever did. I have about 12 hours
behind the G1000, and now have 180 hours behind the Cheltons and Grand Rapids
and I can say the Cheltons really have impressed me beyond what I thought.
Just like anything, and like Tim said, go fly behind them and see the difference
yourself. Three screens really would be nice for the Cheltons because of all
the different screen options.
The OP Technologies stuff look really cool too. I can't wait to play with that
at Oshkosh.
By the way, I am going to upgrade my 430 to WAAS sometime this year just to have
it but my Cheltons will still be driving the autopilot and I will only monitor
the 430W.
One other observation I have heard from non-pilots that I take up is how relaxed
they feel when the see those Cheltons and Grand Rapids in the panel. There
is always some anxiety when passengers first here about going flying in an experimental
but after they fly I have heard that the panel is not what they expected
and they felt safer because of it, kind of interesting.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:31:29 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
Bill Schlatterer wrote:
>
> Just another view but picking the right panel becomes a lot easier if you
> define the mission first. Chelton are great, Fully coupled autopilots are
> wonderful, WAAS GPS supreme and you can get it all for only a gazillion
> dollars. The question in my mind is how much do we really need,... Granted
> if it's a "want" then all the discussion about price and package is moot. (
> BTW, Tim defined his mission as "a real geek, and a pilot who looks at that
> grey thick wet layer of clouds as a perfect day" so if that is not you, it
> will make a difference")
>
Actually, that statement I made was less of my "mission", but much
more my "style". My "mission" might better be summed up like this
slightly edited reply to an offline comment I got.
"When people say I don't "need" all that stuff in the panel, I
think....as far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to trust my "superior"
(laughing) skills are good enough to put my families life on the line
with, risking their lives unnecessarily. For me, what I "need" is
"the best I can do". It may cost a few dollars, but I want every
bit of ease, safety, and help that I can get, so that I can be
more assured that I'll have another day to fly another flight."
For me, it's about totally enjoying IFR flight, but putting
all the technology to good use in actually keeping my family and
passengers alive. IFR flight isn't something you dabble in. VFR and
IFR are absolute black and white, when you play by the rules. For a
VFR only pilot, I wouldn't get any of the high-end systems, and my
main GPS would just be a 496 even as a gadget guy. For an IFR pilot,
there is a lot more at stake. The accident records clearly state the
highly increased risk in GA IFR flight, especially single-pilot. Having
a very good system at your hands is like having a 2nd pilot. In fact,
when I first began my actual IFR experience post-training, I immediately
purchased an autopilot for my old plane, because I was not willing to
even consider flying my family IFR without an autopilot. This is just
an extension of that caution, brought about by a little more
experience, and, because it's possible to GREATLY increase the survival
chances in an IFR aircraft with the technology today. There are so
absolutely many accidents that need never happen. I remember reading
an article recently where a plane flew a few hundred feet below the
glideslope due to some misc. errors in reading when to descend on
final. With todays synthetic vision approaches, that kind of thing
just doesn't need to happen. It's a world where the slightest
mis-interpretation of a piece of paper can mean sudden death. Even
WITH the equipment, there is plenty of risk, but for those who fly
their families (IFR), what do you want to do to minimize it? I'm
selfish enough in that I love IFR flight so much that I'll actually
be willing to FLY IFR with them on board, whereas I could just adamantly
become a VFR pilot, and ignore that risk. But, I'm also not willing
to make it harder than I have to, to ensure their long-term health.
Many have seen my kids photos.....what do YOU think I should consider
Danielle's value as.....$5,000, $20,000, or $50,000? And is Colleen
worth more, or less? Quite literally, the money I spent has the
potential to save just one, very minor, mistake while in IMC, at
some point in our lives, that will make even $100,000 for that extra
"software feature" worth every penny.
So my mission is the ability to fly in IMC with as little risk
of life and limb as possible.
Also, I know that this kind of discussion bores the ba-jeeses out
of some people, but keep in mind that in that survey done by Van's
way back as to what kind of plane (IFR or VFR) the builders were
building, the vast majority were building IFR aircraft. So, I
usually prefer to consider meaningful panel discussions as IFR panel
discussions. If it's a VFR panel, there's very little that is critical
about planning a panel.
Wouldn't it be cool if 5 years from now, the accident record for IFR
flight were to actually equal what it is for VFR flight...and then
some!?! (If we could just get people to fill up with fuel when needed,
that would even help the VFR's safety record)
> For example, I fly a lot in the south, Ark, LA, Texas, Ok and normally
> approaches flown to mins plus 500 are good enough. I would guess that to be
> 80% of the time when you actually need an approach which is an even smaller
> amount of your total flight time. This is from memory but I have flown
> about 40 cross country trips in the last two years (200-400) miles. All
> have been filed IFR, of them only 5 or 6 actually required an approach at
> the end and then only one was to mins plus about 300. Everything else was
> basically just to let down through a layer to about 1,000 agl. BTW, My
> whole attitude/experience would be different if I flew in the North East or
> in California Coastal fog!
Very true...but now you're arguing that a person who's only going to
be doing minimal low approaches should maybe think about lesser
equipment, right? IMHO, it's probably the opposite, and your point
would be perfectly valid. Here's my thought....
It's hard enough for a private pilot to stay IFR current, with plenty of
IMC experience. If you're going to fly approaches in IMC, the pilot
with less currency could probably benefit more from some of the more
substantial equipment than the guy who does it every week, which your
40 flights is quite a portion of a year. You may indeed have the
"superior" skills that I laughingly mentioned about myself above.
Then, it's just a matter of the same economics of what is the value
to you in life and limb dollars? (Keep in mind I really believe that
some of today's technology has the breakthrough possibility of
changing the accident rate....and SOMEBODY is going to die doing it,
so why not err on the safe side?)
>
> All of the really nice IFR stuff is only needed at the mins so you are
> buying a lot of equipment for the rare approach to mins. In most cases, you
> are put on vectors, intercept the approach NAV course from vectors, and then
> descend from the FAF at a fixed rate of 400-800 fpm to mins plus 400- 500 or
> more. Given that, any equipment that will let you fly with a heading bug
> while holding altitude, while monitoring the approach VOR or GPS but
> preferentially by GPS for spatial awareness will comfortably work for any
> but the most die hard IFR pilots. At the FAF, dial in your descent rate and
> leave the NAV coupled and you really don't need a coupled glide slope to get
> comfortably to mins plus 500 or so.
>
I don't disagree with your thoughts for the most part. That's how I
feel about my backup gauges....I mean, how much do you absolutely
need when the crap hits the fan? With ATC help, and radar contact,
you can probably pull off a whole lot if you stay calm. As far as I'm
concerned, you have it exactly right for how I feel if I have a major
EFIS failure. Other than that though, for a few bucks I have the
opportunity to keep that safety level up. For what it's worth, some of
my more fearful moments were not on the low portion of an approach.
In fact, on the last few seconds before breaking out, it hasn't been
bad at all. For me the climb phase, and some enroute and vectoring
phase time has been pretty tough. Spatial disorientation is something
I became acutely aware of, along with vertigo. Interestingly, while
I commonly at least felt the "leans" in turbulent IMC before, I haven't
had that experience with synthetic vision. I can only surmise that
this is partly due to the added "visibility" I'm now seeing. There are
times, that I can honestly say that I had my hands full just keeping
myself hand-flying the plane to keep it upright while feeling
the leans in a big way. Having that experience was pretty humbling.
I do understand that it's something that can be overcome, but, does
the *average* IFR pilot fly enough approaches to realistically keep
their proficiency to what is *really* required for safety? (Not the
standard legal definition of currency)
Also, it wouldn't be responsible of me to tell someone that there's
such a thing as "light" IFR where you just go busting through
thin layers and then continue on top. You truly can get yourself
into some situations that way.
I catch your comment about if you were in the North East or California's
coastal fog, but in almost all areas of the country you can find some
tough IFR flying, and the question is are you planning to take your
plane all over the country and just fly VFR when you get some soggy
clouds in your way?
> Now, all of this is up for grabs if you really want to fly to 200' mins on
> the rare occasion but reasonable risk management on the ground prior to
> take-off makes even the most basic equipment more than adequate "most" of
> the time.
>
> Bottom line is that you can have a nice economical IFR panel that will work
> well with nominal flight management or a really high dollar system that will
> take you to mins with your hands off. Knowing which you will be comfortable
> with should be the first part of the planning process. In some cases, we
> just can't afford the stuff we would like to have and fly with less but
> manage the risk better. Your call, but knowing what you really want to do
> "most" of the time is important. The other question you have to ask is "if
> I buy this fancy system, will I (the pilot) be ready to take it to mins when
> the time comes."
>
All good points. I do agree that financial things do play a part in
the decision process. For me, I would probably be more of an IFR
avoider with the family on board without the gear, yet I feel that
experience is experience, and the only way to actually GET the
experience is to DO the flight, if Convection, hail, ice, and lightning,
and turbulence aren't involved. Personally, knowing that not
everyone can afford exactly what they want, I would encourage
people to do whatever they can from a proficiency and personal-minimums
standpoint to minimize their risk. Proficiency is expensive though
too, as it costs $50/hr just for the fuel to keep proficient.
Also, I agree with your sentiments about will the pilot be ready, if
they are used to flying the fancy system. Having that fancy system
also requires you to stay proficient at it's operation...the same as
any GPS/NAV/COM of course. I worried about how it would be if
not only the EFIS failed, but what if I had to hand-fly
with or without the EFIS. So far I haven't felt like I will have
a problem keeping hand-flying proficient, although it's tough to
fly as good as the computer these days. It pays to try to stay
current in all regards. There again, the pilots best friend in
an emergency is his autopilot...if it's still working.
> If you plan on serious IFR and need that kind of panel for really hard IFR,
> then don't forget that heated pitot and static ports and fuel vents are
> things to consider just like wing and prop de-ice. All nice but more
> complexity and more dollars. HOWEVER if you fly IFR at all, you just gotta
> have a Garmin 396/496 with weather! It's the real minimum IFR equipment in
> my mind.
Also great points. You're absolutely right about the Wx. It's
one of those things that I don't know what I'd do without. Attached
is a WSI screenshot from Saturday. It was very helpful knowing exactly
which direction held the large cells, and how thick the line was.
It was a VFR flight, which is much more comfortable when you have
any red spots in your area. The visual picture said go, but only
when diverting from the direct route.
FWIW, I actually had the offer of wing de-ice, but decided to pass on
that one in favor of avoiding ice altogether. But since I passed, a
good buddy o'pal of mine will now get the honors of having the first
de-ice'd RV-10 out there. Yep, it's coming available down the road.
Add my .02 to everyone's .02, and pretty soon we'll be millionaires!
Just read Deems's post. Totally wonderful information there as well.
I especially agree with #4. While I know some of the limitations of
some of the other systems, I don't know all of the exact positive
features, so I speak mainly to my own knowledge base of the Chelton.
Many of the others got scratched off the list as I went along when
I found something that was a deal-breaker to me...but that doesn't
mean that it's not something that fits your goals. I love talking
about the capabilities of what I have. Unlike when you talk about
the RV-10 and have to admit that the doors suck, when I talk EFIS
I really have very little to complain about, and that's after
getting married to it and having the honeymoon pass.
Tim
>
> Pick the mission, then pick the panel.
>
> Just my .02
>
> Bill S
> 7a Ark
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:11 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
>
>
> This list cracks me up sometimes. ;)
>
> I have to say, to me, a real geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey thick
> wet layer of clouds as a perfect day to go for a pleasure flight and build
> some experience, the panel is my favorite part of the plane.
> It's not a status thing, or an ego thing, but a genuine interest in actually
> taking a creation I made, and have it do flights with ease that were painful
> to me only 2,3, or 5 years ago. There is no comparison to the old equipment
> when you l
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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|
Subject: | Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy |
Jesse,
I would like a full set. Thanks. Jim Berry 6033 S Beeler St, Greenwood Village,
Co 80111-5225 Ph 303-779-3607
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114404#114404
Message 10
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|
Subject: | The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
I don't think it is reasonable or practical to think one person will
populate all the information. But, as you suggested, a common format or
template that others could fill in would work well. I for one would be
happy to set down with some of the manufactures and grill them for the
needed information and then write it up in a specific format.
Updates would be a challenge. Things are changing fast enough some of
the vender can't even keep their websites up to date. So how could we
keep it up to date for all the options?
Vern (#324)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
For me personally, that would be a pretty big project, as although
I have skills in lots of areas, scripted web programming isn't
one of the big ones. Not to mention it would take some time to
put content together and post it. But, it is a good idea. I do
think you'd end up with some Looooooong replies and threads
though. I'll have to think through how I could help with this
one. I will say that I wouldn't hold your breath though, because
it could take some time. Some of those web pages I throw
together as write-ups actually take a few hours per page
to dig up the info and post. It's fun, but it's not something
that's easy to fit into a normal day and still get any sleep.
It may be that if "power users" with the various systems could
write up a common format of details about the features of their
systems, I could put a page together for each type, with a list
of features and pros and cons and limitations. Then, I could
just take any info that people mail me as additional comments
and link that as a separate text for reading. As long as it
didn't continue on updating the comments forever it would be
somewhat manageable.
We'll just have to see...
Jim's EFIS Wiki idea is good too. I just have to find
the time and a good structure for it to support all the
major EFIS systems.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 11
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|
Subject: | Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy |
I would like a full set. We can install it this summer when I come down for
the annual and the ADI install (if it comes out).
Don
On 5/22/07, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
>
> I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-mail
> and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping or a half
> set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired shipping address
> and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you can send in with a
> check after I figure out the shipping charges. I should be able to do a
> flat-rate USPS box or something like that. I do accept paypal, but they
> charge a fee, so I would need the fee added to the amount you send.
>
>
> GOD BLESS!
>
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
> jesse@saintaviation.com
>
> www.saintaviation.com
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bobby J. Hughes
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 12, 2007 6:50 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
>
>
> Jessie,
>
>
> At $200 count me in.
>
>
> Enjoyed our visit at Lockhart.
>
>
> Bobby Hughes
>
> 40116
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jesse Saint
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:08 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
>
> Sorry for the quality, but I have attached some pictures of our Rosen Sun
> Visor installation. I am getting a quote on our custom mount from a local
> machine shop and am getting a quote from Rosen on a group buy for the
> visors. We tried to find a place on the sides to install a visor, but there
> just isn't a good place to put it that won't block the pilot's vision when
> he isn't using the visor. This is a 3-axis visor, so it can be used to
> block sun from the pilot or copilot's front anywhere in the windshield and
> can also block the pilot's right or copilot's left. Unfortunately we
> couldn't find any way to block the sun from the pilot's left or copilot's
> right except a suction cup or static cling piece. The visor base would
> mount on the cabin top using two of the 4 screws that hold the front bar to
> the cabin top.
>
>
> Please let me know off the list if you are interested and I will put a
> list together and let you know when I know how much it would cost. I am
> hoping to keep it under $200 including the visor (big or small lense) and
> the custom black-anodized base.
>
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
> jesse@saintaviation.com
>
> www.saintaviation.com
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Don
Liberty University
Of: 434-592-4127
Cel: 434-944-5347
email: drdonfa@gmail.com
Skype: drdonfanning
MSN Messenger: dfanning@liberty.edu
Web: www.luglobal.com
Message 12
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|
Subject: | Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy |
Don, Where are you located? Randy 40006
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Fanning
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
I would like a full set. We can install it this summer when I come down
for the annual and the ADI install (if it comes out).
Don
On 5/22/07, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-mail
and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping or a
half set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired
shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you
can send in with a check after I figure out the shipping charges. I
should be able to do a flat-rate USPS box or something like that. I do
accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so I would need the fee added to
the amount you send.
GOD BLESS!
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com/>
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Bobby J.
Hughes
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
Jessie,
At $200 count me in.
Enjoyed our visit at Lockhart.
Bobby Hughes
40116
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:08 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
Sorry for the quality, but I have attached some pictures of our Rosen
Sun Visor installation. I am getting a quote on our custom mount from a
local machine shop and am getting a quote from Rosen on a group buy for
the visors. We tried to find a place on the sides to install a visor,
but there just isn't a good place to put it that won't block the pilot's
vision when he isn't using the visor. This is a 3-axis visor, so it can
be used to block sun from the pilot or copilot's front anywhere in the
windshield and can also block the pilot's right or copilot's left.
Unfortunately we couldn't find any way to block the sun from the pilot's
left or copilot's right except a suction cup or static cling piece. The
visor base would mount on the cabin top using two of the 4 screws that
hold the front bar to the cabin top.
Please let me know off the list if you are interested and I will put a
list together and let you know when I know how much it would cost. I am
hoping to keep it under $200 including the visor (big or small lense)
and the custom black-anodized base.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com/>
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
--
Don
Liberty University
Of: 434-592-4127
Cel: 434-944-5347
email: drdonfa@gmail.com
Skype: drdonfanning
MSN Messenger: dfanning@liberty.edu
Web: www.luglobal.com
Message 13
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|
Subject: | Taking the deep questions Offline |
I see how you are, Deems is the only one to do something different?
"GRIN" just how different are you looking for?
Dan
RV10 E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Bill,
Don't ever be afraid to ask questions to the list or share your
experiences. Many things have changed since a group of us decide to
mutiny from a Yahoo list that practiced censorship back in early 2005.
Some people have gone and new people have replaced them. The concern
shown by some of us is over the tone of messages in the last year or so.
When experience and knowledge is eschewed for the loud and
inexperienced, the joy of participating and sharing is replaced with why
bother. So conversations are taken underground, so to speak, between
trusted few.
Me, I am a first time builder and should never be taken as someone
knowledgeable. I look to guys like John Cox, Dave Saylor, Kelly
McMullen, Barrett, & Stein who have years of experience on multiple
aircraft. Of course there are always builders extraordinaire like Tim
who go way above and beyond documenting their experience for the
community in addition to guys like Deems who are willing to be the first
to do something different.
So make sure you always give weight to responses based on real world
experience of the poster. Take time to do research yourself and listen
to all sides. Don't just have blind faith in something because you
might like a guy or because he belongs to the same club as you. It
doesn't mean they are any more experienced than some guy like me. ;-)
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MauleDriver
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline
Pretty cryptic, but I think I unfortunately agree.... Everyone is soooo
helpful here and so giving of their time and knowledge, and yet, by
deciding not to use the public forum, some may be depriving others of
their expertise.
I would also hypothesize that many of us feel like relative newbies
because we lack the depth of knowledge and skill possessed by the more
experienced. Therefore, feeling like a newbie, one may hesitate from
sharing their growing knowledge in the face of so many with so much more
knowledge.
There's a feedback loop in here somewhere that probably results in so
many seemingly dead forums, i.e. RVxx
So, you folks working on your finishing kits - please keep posting here!
and you folks working on your tail and unwrapping those QB kits - please
start posting here!
I'm going to try to double my posting rate, hopefully it will help.
Bill "still rearranging the goodies in my QB wings while slowly
buttoning it up" Watson
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> To the many who have begun communicating far more frequently offline
> and remain committed to the sharing of builder information... I say
> thank you for your continued sharing.
>
> To those who will eventually notice the slow change in intensity,
> brevity of answers and the pursuit of capitalistic profits on this
> list, I say " the silence can seem deafening at times". The frequency
> of posts and depth of thoughtful answers should reflect the
> approaching arrival of OSH and the completion of kits after years with
> this list.
>
> How about that cold beer at Camp Condrey and those Red Sox... I will
> have Fries with my Burger please?
>
> John Cox
>
> #600
>
> Do not Archive
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 14
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|
Subject: | Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy |
Count me in - I am at the right point to install.
Cal Hoffman
97 Myrick Street
Barnwell, SC 29812
803-541-5242
cehoffman@bellsouth.net
I would like a full set of visors.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this
e-mail and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping
or a half set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired
shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you
can send in with a check after I figure out the shipping charges. I
should be able to do a flat-rate USPS box or something like that. I do
accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so I would need the fee added to
the amount you send.
GOD BLESS!
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 15
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|
Subject: | Taking the deep questions Offline |
Ya, you are a given. Crazy alternative engine types.
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:18 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline
I see how you are, Deems is the only one to do something different?
"GRIN" just how different are you looking for?
Dan
RV10 E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Bill,
Don't ever be afraid to ask questions to the list or share your
experiences. Many things have changed since a group of us decide to
mutiny from a Yahoo list that practiced censorship back in early 2005.
Some people have gone and new people have replaced them. The concern
shown by some of us is over the tone of messages in the last year or so.
When experience and knowledge is eschewed for the loud and
inexperienced, the joy of participating and sharing is replaced with why
bother. So conversations are taken underground, so to speak, between
trusted few.
Me, I am a first time builder and should never be taken as someone
knowledgeable. I look to guys like John Cox, Dave Saylor, Kelly
McMullen, Barrett, & Stein who have years of experience on multiple
aircraft. Of course there are always builders extraordinaire like Tim
who go way above and beyond documenting their experience for the
community in addition to guys like Deems who are willing to be the first
to do something different.
So make sure you always give weight to responses based on real world
experience of the poster. Take time to do research yourself and listen
to all sides. Don't just have blind faith in something because you
might like a guy or because he belongs to the same club as you. It
doesn't mean they are any more experienced than some guy like me. ;-)
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MauleDriver
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline
Pretty cryptic, but I think I unfortunately agree.... Everyone is soooo
helpful here and so giving of their time and knowledge, and yet, by
deciding not to use the public forum, some may be depriving others of
their expertise.
I would also hypothesize that many of us feel like relative newbies
because we lack the depth of knowledge and skill possessed by the more
experienced. Therefore, feeling like a newbie, one may hesitate from
sharing their growing knowledge in the face of so many with so much more
knowledge.
There's a feedback loop in here somewhere that probably results in so
many seemingly dead forums, i.e. RVxx
So, you folks working on your finishing kits - please keep posting here!
and you folks working on your tail and unwrapping those QB kits - please
start posting here!
I'm going to try to double my posting rate, hopefully it will help.
Bill "still rearranging the goodies in my QB wings while slowly
buttoning it up" Watson
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> To the many who have begun communicating far more frequently offline
> and remain committed to the sharing of builder information... I say
> thank you for your continued sharing.
>
> To those who will eventually notice the slow change in intensity,
> brevity of answers and the pursuit of capitalistic profits on this
> list, I say " the silence can seem deafening at times". The frequency
> of posts and depth of thoughtful answers should reflect the
> approaching arrival of OSH and the completion of kits after years with
> this list.
>
> How about that cold beer at Camp Condrey and those Red Sox... I will
> have Fries with my Burger please?
>
> John Cox
>
> #600
>
> Do not Archive
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 16
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|
Subject: | The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
What about using the Matronics Wiki.
http://wiki.matronics.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of JSMcGrew@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
Tim,
Try putting up an EFIS Wiki and let us do the work.
-Jim
In a message dated 5/22/2007 8:13:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Tim@MyRV10
.com writes:
How do you get the knowledge for all the systems?
How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on?
How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list?
Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad?
If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective?
Who in their right mind has the time for such a project?
and many more...
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew
________________________________
See what's free at AOL.com<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
Message 17
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|
Subject: | The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
Tim, also great points but all I was really suggesting is that while
everyone that flies IFR should be capable of safe easy flight to mins, there
are different ways to get there. I agree that one shouldn't fly IFR if they
can only handle "light" IFR but the equipment you choose can dictate how
much risk you are willing to handle. Like you I'm sure, there should be no
IFR flight without a solid backup(out)plan. If I have an autopilot failure,
I'm not going to mins if there is any way out but I would probably hand fly
to LOC mins plus 500 with no qualms. Risk management is what IFR is all
about. You feel better with a full load of equipment, my suggestion is that
it isn't required for the majority of IFR flight BUT if I had the budget I
would have it too. BTW, I consider an AP mandatory for single pilot IFR so
I would not even consider a true "minimalist" approach to panel choices.
Also not arguing the "light IFR" point, but there is VFR and Marginal VFR
and there really is IFR and LOW IFR so you do get to make a choice of how
much you're willing to bite off. Your mode of risk management is to load up
the airplane, be very pilot current, and you're good to go. More equipment
IS better risk management but at a cost. If you can do it, I would too but
after the first 15K of equipment, the next 10K or 20K is just cause it makes
us marginally safer if you attack the same conditions. If you just don't go
there when the ceiling is 300, that's a way to do it as well.
Nice discussion, always enjoy reading your posts. So last question,...
Would you say that a basic IFR airplane with AP and on board Wx is safer
than a loaded panel with no weather ? We do have to make choices on limited
budgets ;-) A real question for a lot of folks is to either have a
better(more expensive) AP/NAV combination or alternately add WX with some
additional monthly fees. Personally, I will take the Wx every time if I
can't afford both.
Bill S
BTW, I did opt for a dual GRT, 430W, TT VSVG, Garmin 396 with WX and backup
instruments in my 7 and would have done Chelton if I had the dough but
didn't :-(
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
Bill Schlatterer wrote:
> --> <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Just another view but picking the right panel becomes a lot easier if
> you define the mission first. Chelton are great, Fully coupled
> autopilots are wonderful, WAAS GPS supreme and you can get it all for
> only a gazillion dollars. The question in my mind is how much do we
> really need,... Granted if it's a "want" then all the discussion about
> price and package is moot. ( BTW, Tim defined his mission as "a real
> geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey thick wet layer of clouds as
> a perfect day" so if that is not you, it will make a difference")
>
Actually, that statement I made was less of my "mission", but much more my
"style". My "mission" might better be summed up like this slightly edited
reply to an offline comment I got.
"When people say I don't "need" all that stuff in the panel, I think....as
far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to trust my "superior"
(laughing) skills are good enough to put my families life on the line
with, risking their lives unnecessarily. For me, what I "need" is "the best
I can do". It may cost a few dollars, but I want every bit of ease, safety,
and help that I can get, so that I can be more assured that I'll have
another day to fly another flight."
For me, it's about totally enjoying IFR flight, but putting all the
technology to good use in actually keeping my family and passengers alive.
IFR flight isn't something you dabble in. VFR and IFR are absolute black
and white, when you play by the rules. For a VFR only pilot, I wouldn't get
any of the high-end systems, and my main GPS would just be a 496 even as a
gadget guy. For an IFR pilot, there is a lot more at stake. The accident
records clearly state the highly increased risk in GA IFR flight, especially
single-pilot. Having a very good system at your hands is like having a 2nd
pilot. In fact, when I first began my actual IFR experience post-training,
I immediately purchased an autopilot for my old plane, because I was not
willing to even consider flying my family IFR without an autopilot. This is
just an extension of that caution, brought about by a little more
experience, and, because it's possible to GREATLY increase the survival
chances in an IFR aircraft with the technology today. There are so
absolutely many accidents that need never happen. I remember reading an
article recently where a plane flew a few hundred feet below the glideslope
due to some misc. errors in reading when to descend on final. With todays
synthetic vision approaches, that kind of thing just doesn't need to happen.
It's a world where the slightest mis-interpretation of a piece of paper can
mean sudden death. Even WITH the equipment, there is plenty of risk, but
for those who fly their families (IFR), what do you want to do to minimize
it? I'm selfish enough in that I love IFR flight so much that I'll actually
be willing to FLY IFR with them on board, whereas I could just adamantly
become a VFR pilot, and ignore that risk. But, I'm also not willing
to make it harder than I have to, to ensure their long-term health.
Many have seen my kids photos.....what do YOU think I should consider
Danielle's value as.....$5,000, $20,000, or $50,000? And is Colleen worth
more, or less? Quite literally, the money I spent has the potential to save
just one, very minor, mistake while in IMC, at some point in our lives, that
will make even $100,000 for that extra "software feature" worth every penny.
So my mission is the ability to fly in IMC with as little risk of life and
limb as possible.
Also, I know that this kind of discussion bores the ba-jeeses out of some
people, but keep in mind that in that survey done by Van's way back as to
what kind of plane (IFR or VFR) the builders were building, the vast
majority were building IFR aircraft. So, I usually prefer to consider
meaningful panel discussions as IFR panel discussions. If it's a VFR panel,
there's very little that is critical about planning a panel.
Wouldn't it be cool if 5 years from now, the accident record for IFR flight
were to actually equal what it is for VFR flight...and then some!?! (If we
could just get people to fill up with fuel when needed, that would even help
the VFR's safety record)
> For example, I fly a lot in the south, Ark, LA, Texas, Ok and
> normally approaches flown to mins plus 500 are good enough. I would
> guess that to be 80% of the time when you actually need an approach
> which is an even smaller amount of your total flight time. This is
> from memory but I have flown about 40 cross country trips in the last
> two years (200-400) miles. All have been filed IFR, of them only 5 or
> 6 actually required an approach at the end and then only one was to
> mins plus about 300. Everything else was basically just to let down
> through a layer to about 1,000 agl. BTW, My whole attitude/experience
> would be different if I flew in the North East or in California Coastal
fog!
Very true...but now you're arguing that a person who's only going to be
doing minimal low approaches should maybe think about lesser equipment,
right? IMHO, it's probably the opposite, and your point would be perfectly
valid. Here's my thought....
It's hard enough for a private pilot to stay IFR current, with plenty of IMC
experience. If you're going to fly approaches in IMC, the pilot with less
currency could probably benefit more from some of the more substantial
equipment than the guy who does it every week, which your 40 flights is
quite a portion of a year. You may indeed have the "superior" skills that I
laughingly mentioned about myself above.
Then, it's just a matter of the same economics of what is the value to you
in life and limb dollars? (Keep in mind I really believe that some of
today's technology has the breakthrough possibility of changing the accident
rate....and SOMEBODY is going to die doing it, so why not err on the safe
side?)
>
> All of the really nice IFR stuff is only needed at the mins so you are
> buying a lot of equipment for the rare approach to mins. In most
> cases, you are put on vectors, intercept the approach NAV course from
> vectors, and then descend from the FAF at a fixed rate of 400-800 fpm
> to mins plus 400- 500 or more. Given that, any equipment that will
> let you fly with a heading bug while holding altitude, while
> monitoring the approach VOR or GPS but preferentially by GPS for
> spatial awareness will comfortably work for any but the most die hard
> IFR pilots. At the FAF, dial in your descent rate and leave the NAV
> coupled and you really don't need a coupled glide slope to get comfortably
to mins plus 500 or so.
>
I don't disagree with your thoughts for the most part. That's how I feel
about my backup gauges....I mean, how much do you absolutely need when the
crap hits the fan? With ATC help, and radar contact, you can probably pull
off a whole lot if you stay calm. As far as I'm concerned, you have it
exactly right for how I feel if I have a major EFIS failure. Other than
that though, for a few bucks I have the opportunity to keep that safety
level up. For what it's worth, some of my more fearful moments were not on
the low portion of an approach.
In fact, on the last few seconds before breaking out, it hasn't been bad at
all. For me the climb phase, and some enroute and vectoring phase time has
been pretty tough. Spatial disorientation is something I became acutely
aware of, along with vertigo. Interestingly, while I commonly at least felt
the "leans" in turbulent IMC before, I haven't had that experience with
synthetic vision. I can only surmise that this is partly due to the added
"visibility" I'm now seeing. There are times, that I can honestly say that
I had my hands full just keeping myself hand-flying the plane to keep it
upright while feeling the leans in a big way. Having that experience was
pretty humbling.
I do understand that it's something that can be overcome, but, does the
*average* IFR pilot fly enough approaches to realistically keep their
proficiency to what is *really* required for safety? (Not the standard legal
definition of currency)
Also, it wouldn't be responsible of me to tell someone that there's such a
thing as "light" IFR where you just go busting through thin layers and then
continue on top. You truly can get yourself into some situations that way.
I catch your comment about if you were in the North East or California's
coastal fog, but in almost all areas of the country you can find some tough
IFR flying, and the question is are you planning to take your plane all over
the country and just fly VFR when you get some soggy clouds in your way?
> Now, all of this is up for grabs if you really want to fly to 200'
> mins on the rare occasion but reasonable risk management on the ground
> prior to take-off makes even the most basic equipment more than
> adequate "most" of the time.
>
> Bottom line is that you can have a nice economical IFR panel that will
> work well with nominal flight management or a really high dollar
> system that will take you to mins with your hands off. Knowing which
> you will be comfortable with should be the first part of the planning
> process. In some cases, we just can't afford the stuff we would like
> to have and fly with less but manage the risk better. Your call, but
> knowing what you really want to do "most" of the time is important.
> The other question you have to ask is "if I buy this fancy system,
> will I (the pilot) be ready to take it to mins when the time comes."
>
All good points. I do agree that financial things do play a part in the
decision process. For me, I would probably be more of an IFR avoider with
the family on board without the gear, yet I feel that experience is
experience, and the only way to actually GET the experience is to DO the
flight, if Convection, hail, ice, and lightning, and turbulence aren't
involved. Personally, knowing that not everyone can afford exactly what
they want, I would encourage people to do whatever they can from a
proficiency and personal-minimums standpoint to minimize their risk.
Proficiency is expensive though too, as it costs $50/hr just for the fuel to
keep proficient.
Also, I agree with your sentiments about will the pilot be ready, if they
are used to flying the fancy system. Having that fancy system also requires
you to stay proficient at it's operation...the same as any GPS/NAV/COM of
course. I worried about how it would be if not only the EFIS failed, but
what if I had to hand-fly with or without the EFIS. So far I haven't felt
like I will have a problem keeping hand-flying proficient, although it's
tough to fly as good as the computer these days. It pays to try to stay
current in all regards. There again, the pilots best friend in an emergency
is his autopilot...if it's still working.
> If you plan on serious IFR and need that kind of panel for really hard
> IFR, then don't forget that heated pitot and static ports and fuel
> vents are things to consider just like wing and prop de-ice. All nice
> but more complexity and more dollars. HOWEVER if you fly IFR at all,
> you just gotta have a Garmin 396/496 with weather! It's the real
> minimum IFR equipment in my mind.
Also great points. You're absolutely right about the Wx. It's one of those
things that I don't know what I'd do without. Attached is a WSI screenshot
from Saturday. It was very helpful knowing exactly which direction held the
large cells, and how thick the line was.
It was a VFR flight, which is much more comfortable when you have any red
spots in your area. The visual picture said go, but only when diverting
from the direct route.
FWIW, I actually had the offer of wing de-ice, but decided to pass on that
one in favor of avoiding ice altogether. But since I passed, a good buddy
o'pal of mine will now get the honors of having the first de-ice'd RV-10 out
there. Yep, it's coming available down the road.
Add my .02 to everyone's .02, and pretty soon we'll be millionaires!
Just read Deems's post. Totally wonderful information there as well.
I especially agree with #4. While I know some of the limitations of some of
the other systems, I don't know all of the exact positive features, so I
speak mainly to my own knowledge base of the Chelton.
Many of the others got scratched off the list as I went along when I found
something that was a deal-breaker to me...but that doesn't mean that it's
not something that fits your goals. I love talking about the capabilities
of what I have. Unlike when you talk about the RV-10 and have to admit that
the doors suck, when I talk EFIS I really have very little to complain
about, and that's after getting married to it and having the honeymoon pass.
Tim
>
> Pick the mission, then pick the panel.
>
> Just my .02
>
> Bill S
> 7a Ark
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:11 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was
> GNS-430W
>
>
> This list cracks me up sometimes. ;)
>
> I have to say, to me, a real geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey
> thick wet layer of clouds as a perfect day to go for a pleasure flight
> and build some experience, the panel is my favorite part of the plane.
> It's not a status thing, or an ego thing, but a genuine interest in
> actually taking a creation I made, and have it do flights with ease
> that were painful to me only 2,3, or 5 years ago. There is no
> comparison to the old equipment when you l
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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Listers -
I have a new MT prop governor for sale.
$1075, shipped.
Neal E. George
2023 Everglades Drive
Navarre, FL 32566
Home - 850-515-0640
Cell - 850-218-4838
Message 19
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Why would you sell? What are you going to run with?
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neal George
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:40 PM
Subject: RV10-List: FS: MT Prop Gov
Listers -
I have a new MT prop governor for sale.
$1075, shipped.
Neal E. George
2023 Everglades Drive
Navarre, FL 32566
Home - 850-515-0640
Cell - 850-218-4838
Message 20
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Subject: | Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy |
Okay, call me jaded but I just received an invitation to migrate over to
the RV-10 web reflector offered by Doug Reeves. Question #1 - Now, am I
the only one?
Question #2, is it correct that this list has become a private
conversation between Saint Aviation and individuals who cannot take
private conversations private? Cause I am not on any list for Rosen
Visors or Saint Aviation business endevours nor see value in the build
for knowing who they all are. Tim, is that how you handled the axle
extension offer?
At one time this was a sharing forum for diverse builders with common
interests.
John Cox #40600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cal Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
Count me in - I am at the right point to install.
Cal Hoffman
97 Myrick Street
Barnwell, SC 29812
803-541-5242
cehoffman@bellsouth.net
I would like a full set of visors.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to
this e-mail and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus
shipping or a half set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the
desired shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice
that you can send in with a check after I figure out the shipping
charges. I should be able to do a flat-rate USPS box or something like
that. I do accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so I would need the
fee added to the amount you send.
GOD BLESS!
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W |
Bill, This is a fantastic reply. I hope you don't get the idea that I'm
dictating to anyone or suggesting that everyone do the same, or even
that my choices are the "right" or necessary choices. It's really
all so widely individual that indeed there are as many appropriate
combinations as there are builders....although not all builders
choose appropriate combinations for themselves. ;)
As far as philosophy of IFR flight goes, I can tell that we agree far
more than any disagreement...that's for sure. Your thoughts are
pretty much really good and valid as far as I'm concerned. About the
only thing I disagree with below is that jumping to some of the
more expensive stuff only adds marginal improvement. For 80-90% of
the feature list, I'd agree, but I really think there are a couple
of things available today that if widely used would no doubt change
the accident rates significantly. But from a general point, you're
right...the more money you throw at anything, the more marginal
the return gets. LNav/Vnav GPS approaches vs. LPV approaches is
an example.
Regarding your last question about Wx. I have actually said that
before. The single best thing in my plane that changes everything
is the onboard Wx as far as changing the overall possiblities of
flight. It's well worth the fee. Behind that I'd have to say is
the synthetic vision and HITS and the ability for the AP to
actually do a hands-off approach. Coming from a steam gauge
background, the WX changes completely the situations you'd get
in to. But then the Synthetic vision and HITS completely change the
ease at which approaches are flown. If someone were on their
last few hundred bucks on their panel though, with even a VFR
panel, my #1 recommendation would be for WX...and that's even
for any VFR x/c pilot. You're right that it's just a totally
experience changing feature.
The features I see as far less useful are things like on-screen
charts. There are good ways to deal with that for much less
money. Many people don't realize that Jepp subscriptions for
things like that are very very pricey, and the feature itself
costs a fortune too. The G900 unlock code for chartview
costs $3000 alone, plus the subscription. The GMX-200 costs
$2000 for the unlock code, and then *requires* a subscription
to jeppview for $738/yr + 100 to activate it. Jeppview is
only available for Garmin and Avidyne right now. I have a
pricey database subscription for the Chelton, which is a
necessary evil just like on a GNS-430/530/480, but charts
are much more reasonable on a tablet. $400 or less for
the software, and $200/yr for a complete set of IFR/VFR/
Hi-Lo Alt Enroute, WAC's, and the works. That's actually
affordable....and it's not the cheapest possible way to do things.
So there are definitely features that are "nice" to have and
add lots of cost, but only provide some marginal improvements.
Even my tablet will overlay my plane on an approach chart, and
it'll do it without messing up my screen display.
Bill, I totally appreciate your 100% gentlemanly posts, and very
great points. I know there are a lot of people reading, and it's
a very worthy discussion. Having it with a guy with your demeanor
is fantastic. No flame suit required.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Bill Schlatterer wrote:
>
> Tim, also great points but all I was really suggesting is that while
> everyone that flies IFR should be capable of safe easy flight to mins, there
> are different ways to get there. I agree that one shouldn't fly IFR if they
> can only handle "light" IFR but the equipment you choose can dictate how
> much risk you are willing to handle. Like you I'm sure, there should be no
> IFR flight without a solid backup(out)plan. If I have an autopilot failure,
> I'm not going to mins if there is any way out but I would probably hand fly
> to LOC mins plus 500 with no qualms. Risk management is what IFR is all
> about. You feel better with a full load of equipment, my suggestion is that
> it isn't required for the majority of IFR flight BUT if I had the budget I
> would have it too. BTW, I consider an AP mandatory for single pilot IFR so
> I would not even consider a true "minimalist" approach to panel choices.
>
> Also not arguing the "light IFR" point, but there is VFR and Marginal VFR
> and there really is IFR and LOW IFR so you do get to make a choice of how
> much you're willing to bite off. Your mode of risk management is to load up
> the airplane, be very pilot current, and you're good to go. More equipment
> IS better risk management but at a cost. If you can do it, I would too but
> after the first 15K of equipment, the next 10K or 20K is just cause it makes
> us marginally safer if you attack the same conditions. If you just don't go
> there when the ceiling is 300, that's a way to do it as well.
>
> Nice discussion, always enjoy reading your posts. So last question,...
> Would you say that a basic IFR airplane with AP and on board Wx is safer
> than a loaded panel with no weather ? We do have to make choices on limited
> budgets ;-) A real question for a lot of folks is to either have a
> better(more expensive) AP/NAV combination or alternately add WX with some
> additional monthly fees. Personally, I will take the Wx every time if I
> can't afford both.
>
> Bill S
>
>
> BTW, I did opt for a dual GRT, 430W, TT VSVG, Garmin 396 with WX and backup
> instruments in my 7 and would have done Chelton if I had the dough but
> didn't :-(
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:31 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
>
>
> Bill Schlatterer wrote:
>> --> <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> Just another view but picking the right panel becomes a lot easier if
>> you define the mission first. Chelton are great, Fully coupled
>> autopilots are wonderful, WAAS GPS supreme and you can get it all for
>> only a gazillion dollars. The question in my mind is how much do we
>> really need,... Granted if it's a "want" then all the discussion about
>> price and package is moot. ( BTW, Tim defined his mission as "a real
>> geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey thick wet layer of clouds as
>> a perfect day" so if that is not you, it will make a difference")
>>
>
> Actually, that statement I made was less of my "mission", but much more my
> "style". My "mission" might better be summed up like this slightly edited
> reply to an offline comment I got.
>
> "When people say I don't "need" all that stuff in the panel, I think....as
> far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to trust my "superior"
> (laughing) skills are good enough to put my families life on the line
> with, risking their lives unnecessarily. For me, what I "need" is "the best
> I can do". It may cost a few dollars, but I want every bit of ease, safety,
> and help that I can get, so that I can be more assured that I'll have
> another day to fly another flight."
>
> For me, it's about totally enjoying IFR flight, but putting all the
> technology to good use in actually keeping my family and passengers alive.
> IFR flight isn't something you dabble in. VFR and IFR are absolute black
> and white, when you play by the rules. For a VFR only pilot, I wouldn't get
> any of the high-end systems, and my main GPS would just be a 496 even as a
> gadget guy. For an IFR pilot, there is a lot more at stake. The accident
> records clearly state the highly increased risk in GA IFR flight, especially
> single-pilot. Having a very good system at your hands is like having a 2nd
> pilot. In fact, when I first began my actual IFR experience post-training,
> I immediately purchased an autopilot for my old plane, because I was not
> willing to even consider flying my family IFR without an autopilot. This is
> just an extension of that caution, brought about by a little more
> experience, and, because it's possible to GREATLY increase the survival
> chances in an IFR aircraft with the technology today. There are so
> absolutely many accidents that need never happen. I remember reading an
> article recently where a plane flew a few hundred feet below the glideslope
> due to some misc. errors in reading when to descend on final. With todays
> synthetic vision approaches, that kind of thing just doesn't need to happen.
> It's a world where the slightest mis-interpretation of a piece of paper can
> mean sudden death. Even WITH the equipment, there is plenty of risk, but
> for those who fly their families (IFR), what do you want to do to minimize
> it? I'm selfish enough in that I love IFR flight so much that I'll actually
> be willing to FLY IFR with them on board, whereas I could just adamantly
> become a VFR pilot, and ignore that risk. But, I'm also not willing
> to make it harder than I have to, to ensure their long-term health.
> Many have seen my kids photos.....what do YOU think I should consider
> Danielle's value as.....$5,000, $20,000, or $50,000? And is Colleen worth
> more, or less? Quite literally, the money I spent has the potential to save
> just one, very minor, mistake while in IMC, at some point in our lives, that
> will make even $100,000 for that extra "software feature" worth every penny.
>
> So my mission is the ability to fly in IMC with as little risk of life and
> limb as possible.
>
> Also, I know that this kind of discussion bores the ba-jeeses out of some
> people, but keep in mind that in that survey done by Van's way back as to
> what kind of plane (IFR or VFR) the builders were building, the vast
> majority were building IFR aircraft. So, I usually prefer to consider
> meaningful panel discussions as IFR panel discussions. If it's a VFR panel,
> there's very little that is critical about planning a panel.
>
> Wouldn't it be cool if 5 years from now, the accident record for IFR flight
> were to actually equal what it is for VFR flight...and then some!?! (If we
> could just get people to fill up with fuel when needed, that would even help
> the VFR's safety record)
>
>
>> For example, I fly a lot in the south, Ark, LA, Texas, Ok and
>> normally approaches flown to mins plus 500 are good enough. I would
>> guess that to be 80% of the time when you actually need an approach
>> which is an even smaller amount of your total flight time. This is
>> from memory but I have flown about 40 cross country trips in the last
>> two years (200-400) miles. All have been filed IFR, of them only 5 or
>> 6 actually required an approach at the end and then only one was to
>> mins plus about 300. Everything else was basically just to let down
>> through a layer to about 1,000 agl. BTW, My whole attitude/experience
>> would be different if I flew in the North East or in California Coastal
> fog!
>
> Very true...but now you're arguing that a person who's only going to be
> doing minimal low approaches should maybe think about lesser equipment,
> right? IMHO, it's probably the opposite, and your point would be perfectly
> valid. Here's my thought....
>
> It's hard enough for a private pilot to stay IFR current, with plenty of IMC
> experience. If you're going to fly approaches in IMC, the pilot with less
> currency could probably benefit more from some of the more substantial
> equipment than the guy who does it every week, which your 40 flights is
> quite a portion of a year. You may indeed have the "superior" skills that I
> laughingly mentioned about myself above.
> Then, it's just a matter of the same economics of what is the value to you
> in life and limb dollars? (Keep in mind I really believe that some of
> today's technology has the breakthrough possibility of changing the accident
> rate....and SOMEBODY is going to die doing it, so why not err on the safe
> side?)
>
>
>> All of the really nice IFR stuff is only needed at the mins so you are
>> buying a lot of equipment for the rare approach to mins. In most
>> cases, you are put on vectors, intercept the approach NAV course from
>> vectors, and then descend from the FAF at a fixed rate of 400-800 fpm
>> to mins plus 400- 500 or more. Given that, any equipment that will
>> let you fly with a heading bug while holding altitude, while
>> monitoring the approach VOR or GPS but preferentially by GPS for
>> spatial awareness will comfortably work for any but the most die hard
>> IFR pilots. At the FAF, dial in your descent rate and leave the NAV
>> coupled and you really don't need a coupled glide slope to get comfortably
> to mins plus 500 or so.
>
>
> I don't disagree with your thoughts for the most part. That's how I feel
> about my backup gauges....I mean, how much do you absolutely need when the
> crap hits the fan? With ATC help, and radar contact, you can probably pull
> off a whole lot if you stay calm. As far as I'm concerned, you have it
> exactly right for how I feel if I have a major EFIS failure. Other than
> that though, for a few bucks I have the opportunity to keep that safety
> level up. For what it's worth, some of my more fearful moments were not on
> the low portion of an approach.
> In fact, on the last few seconds before breaking out, it hasn't been bad at
> all. For me the climb phase, and some enroute and vectoring phase time has
> been pretty tough. Spatial disorientation is something I became acutely
> aware of, along with vertigo. Interestingly, while I commonly at least felt
> the "leans" in turbulent IMC before, I haven't had that experience with
> synthetic vision. I can only surmise that this is partly due to the added
> "visibility" I'm now seeing. There are times, that I can honestly say that
> I had my hands full just keeping myself hand-flying the plane to keep it
> upright while feeling the leans in a big way. Having that experience was
> pretty humbling.
> I do understand that it's something that can be overcome, but, does the
> *average* IFR pilot fly enough approaches to realistically keep their
> proficiency to what is *really* required for safety? (Not the standard legal
> definition of currency)
>
> Also, it wouldn't be responsible of me to tell someone that there's such a
> thing as "light" IFR where you just go busting through thin layers and then
> continue on top. You truly can get yourself into some situations that way.
>
> I catch your comment about if you were in the North East or California's
> coastal fog, but in almost all areas of the country you can find some tough
> IFR flying, and the question is are you planning to take your plane all over
> the country and just fly VFR when you get some soggy clouds in your way?
>
>
>> Now, all of this is up for grabs if you really want to fly to 200'
>> mins on the rare occasion but reasonable risk management on the ground
>> prior to take-off makes even the most basic equipment more than
>> adequate "most" of the time.
>>
>> Bottom line is that you can have a nice economical IFR panel that will
>> work well with nominal flight management or a really high dollar
>> system that will take you to mins with your hands off. Knowing which
>> you will be comfortable with should be the first part of the planning
>> process. In some cases, we just can't afford the stuff we would like
>> to have and fly with less but manage the risk better. Your call, but
>> knowing what you really want to do "most" of the time is important.
>> The other question you have to ask is "if I buy this fancy system,
>> will I (the pilot) be ready to take it to mins when the time comes."
>>
>
> All good points. I do agree that financial things do play a part in the
> decision process. For me, I would probably be more of an IFR avoider with
> the family on board without the gear, yet I feel that experience is
> experience, and the only way to actually GET the experience is to DO the
> flight, if Convection, hail, ice, and lightning, and turbulence aren't
> involved. Personally, knowing that not everyone can afford exactly what
> they want, I would encourage people to do whatever they can from a
> proficiency and personal-minimums standpoint to minimize their risk.
> Proficiency is expensive though too, as it costs $50/hr just for the fuel to
> keep proficient.
>
> Also, I agree with your sentiments about will the pilot be ready, if they
> are used to flying the fancy system. Having that fancy system also requires
> you to stay proficient at it's operation...the same as any GPS/NAV/COM of
> course. I worried about how it would be if not only the EFIS failed, but
> what if I had to hand-fly with or without the EFIS. So far I haven't felt
> like I will have a problem keeping hand-flying proficient, although it's
> tough to fly as good as the computer these days. It pays to try to stay
> current in all regards. There again, the pilots best friend in an emergency
> is his autopilot...if it's still working.
>
>> If you plan on serious IFR and need that kind of panel for really hard
>> IFR, then don't forget that heated pitot and static ports and fuel
>> vents are things to consider just like wing and prop de-ice. All nice
>> but more complexity and more dollars. HOWEVER if you fly IFR at all,
>> you just gotta have a Garmin 396/496 with weather! It's the real
>> minimum IFR equipment in my mind.
>
> Also great points. You're absolutely right about the Wx. It's one of those
> things that I don't know what I'd do without. Attached is a WSI screenshot
> from Saturday. It was very helpful knowing exactly which direction held the
> large cells, and how thick the line was.
> It was a VFR flight, which is much more comfortable when you have any red
> spots in your area. The visual picture said go, but only when diverting
> from the direct route.
>
> FWIW, I actually had the offer of wing de-ice, but decided to pass on that
> one in favor of avoiding ice altogether. But since I passed, a good buddy
> o'pal of mine will now get the honors of having the first de-ice'd RV-10 out
> there. Yep, it's coming available down the road.
>
> Add my .02 to everyone's .02, and pretty soon we'll be millionaires!
>
> Just read Deems's post. Totally wonderful information there as well.
> I especially agree with #4. While I know some of the limitations of some of
> the other systems, I don't know all of the exact positive features, so I
> speak mainly to my own knowledge base of the Chelton.
> Many of the others got scratched off the list as I went along when I found
> something that was a deal-breaker to me...but that doesn't mean that it's
> not something that fits your goals. I love talking about the capabilities
> of what I have. Unlike when you talk about the RV-10 and have to admit that
> the doors suck, when I talk EFIS I really have very little to complain
> about, and that's after getting married to it and having the honeymoon pass.
>
> Tim
>
>> Pick the mission, then pick the panel.
>>
>> Just my .02
>>
>> Bill S
>> 7a Ark
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:11 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was
>> GNS-430W
>>
>>
>> This list cracks me up sometimes. ;)
>>
>> I have to say, to me, a real geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey
>> thick wet layer of clouds as a perfect day to go for a pleasure flight
>> and build some experience, the panel is my favorite part of the plane.
>> It's not a status thing, or an ego thing, but a genuine interest in
>> actually taking a creation I made, and have it do flights with ease
>> that were painful to me only 2,3, or 5 years ago. There is no
>> comparison to the old equipment when you l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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Subject: | Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy |
Not a surprise that I wouldn't be given a personal invite given my past com
ments on Doug's operation. I'm just not big on having my posts edited and
then posted with no comment that it was edited. But hey, it's putting his
kids through college (and his kids kids, and the kids down the street, and
their kids, etc). I just have a thing about business being run under false
pretences, but that's just me.
Oh ya, and you're jaded. :-)
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
Okay, call me jaded but I just received an invitation to migrate over to th
e RV-10 web reflector offered by Doug Reeves. Question #1 - Now, am I the
only one?
Question #2, is it correct that this list has become a private conversation
between Saint Aviation and individuals who cannot take private conversatio
ns private? Cause I am not on any list for Rosen Visors or Saint Aviation
business endevours nor see value in the build for knowing who they all are.
Tim, is that how you handled the axle extension offer?
At one time this was a sharing forum for diverse builders with common inter
ests.
John Cox #40600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Cal Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
Count me in - I am at the right point to install.
Cal Hoffman
97 Myrick Street
Barnwell, SC 29812
803-541-5242
cehoffman@bellsouth.net
I would like a full set of visors.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint<mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-mail an
d let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping or a half se
t for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired shipping address
and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you can send in with a che
ck after I figure out the shipping charges. I should be able to do a flat-
rate USPS box or something like that. I do accept paypal, but they charge
a fee, so I would need the fee added to the amount you send.
GOD BLESS!
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com<mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
www.saintaviation.com<http://www.saintaviation.com>
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 23
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|
flysrv10(at)gmail.com wrote:
> You did not ask for a fix but I will tell you in case you did not know. Use Loctite
290. It works wonders. I had the same issue with my QB wings.
I am looking for a source of this product. Can someone direct me to a supplier?
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N410GB reserved)
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114486#114486
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: FS: MT Prop Gov |
It would be nice if you listed the MT governor part number. That way the
correct engine usage could be determined. Perhaps from my MT Propeller
Governor page on my website, _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
Less Drag Products, Inc.
805-795-5377
In a message dated 05/23/2007 7:41:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
neal.george@mchsi.com writes:
Listers -
I have a new MT prop governor for sale.
$1075, shipped.
Neal E. George
2023 Everglades Drive
Navarre, FL 32566
Home - 850-515-0640
Cell - 850-218-4838
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 25
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|
Subject: | Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy |
Smells like the same *bull* (pardon the english) from the ole Yahoo!
days.
-Sean (#40303 still waiting to start again)
On May 23, 2007, at 10:34 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Not a surprise that I wouldn=92t be given a personal invite given my
> past comments on Doug=92s operation. I=92m just not big on having my
> posts edited and then posted with no comment that it was edited.
> But hey, it=92s putting his kids through college (and his kids kids,
> and the kids down the street, and their kids, etc). I just have a
> thing about business being run under false pretences, but that=92s
> just me.
>
>
> Oh ya, and you=92re jaded. :-)
>
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:09 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
>
>
> Okay, call me jaded but I just received an invitation to migrate
> over to the RV-10 web reflector offered by Doug Reeves. Question
> #1 ' Now, am I the only one?
>
>
> Question #2, is it correct that this list has become a private
> conversation between Saint Aviation and individuals who cannot take
> private conversations private? Cause I am not on any list for
> Rosen Visors or Saint Aviation business endevours nor see value in
> the build for knowing who they all are. Tim, is that how you
> handled the axle extension offer?
>
>
> At one time this was a sharing forum for diverse builders with
> common interests.
>
>
> John Cox #40600
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cal Hoffman
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:56 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
>
>
> Count me in - I am at the right point to install.
>
>
> Cal Hoffman
>
> 97 Myrick Street
>
> Barnwell, SC 29812
>
> 803-541-5242
>
> cehoffman@bellsouth.net
>
> I would like a full set of visors.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Jesse Saint
>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:32 PM
>
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy
>
>
> I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-
> mail and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus
> shipping or a half set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail
> the desired shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an
> invoice that you can send in with a check after I figure out the
> shipping charges. I should be able to do a flat-rate USPS box or
> something like that. I do accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so
> I would need the fee added to the amount you send.
>
>
> GOD BLESS!
>
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>
> jesse@saintaviation.com
>
> www.saintaviation.com
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> y List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,
> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; http://
> forums.matronics.com
>
List
> ========================
> ========================
>
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