---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/23/07: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:01 AM - Re: Fuel flow sensor (Michael Wellenzohn) 2. 05:47 AM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Jesse Saint) 3. 08:03 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Vern W. Smith) 4. 08:09 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (JSMcGrew@aol.com) 5. 08:21 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Rene Felker) 6. 08:29 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Tim Olson) 7. 08:43 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Jesse Saint) 8. 08:47 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Scott Schmidt) 9. 09:44 AM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (jim berry) 10. 10:16 AM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Vern W. Smith) 11. 01:52 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Don Fanning) 12. 02:27 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Randy DeBauw) 13. 06:18 PM - Re: Taking the deep questions Offline (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 14. 06:53 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Cal Hoffman) 15. 07:08 PM - Re: Taking the deep questions Offline (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 16. 07:19 PM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 17. 07:31 PM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Bill Schlatterer) 18. 07:39 PM - FS: MT Prop Gov (Neal George) 19. 08:04 PM - Re: FS: MT Prop Gov (John W. Cox) 20. 08:10 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (John W. Cox) 21. 08:26 PM - Re: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W (Tim Olson) 22. 08:35 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 23. 08:41 PM - Re: Gas leak (orchidman) 24. 08:52 PM - Re: FS: MT Prop Gov (LessDragProd@aol.com) 25. 09:13 PM - Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy (Sean Stephens) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:30 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Fuel flow sensor From: "Michael Wellenzohn" Thanks guys for all the replies. I decided to order the sensor kit from Advanced Flieght Systems after I had a call with them yesterday and the fuel flow sensor comes with that. Cheers Michael (who quit his job to get the plane done ;-) ) -------- RV-10 builder (wings) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114332#114332 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:27 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy I am 6'1" and have plenty of room. The best place to stow the visor when not in use would be straight forward towards the windscreen. Actually, the taller a person is, the further back their seat will be (probably), so head room is not as much as an issue as you would think because of the slant of the seat rails. Others, please chime in here with added info on height. I don't think it would be an issue even if you folded it back. With the 4-axis movement, you can put the lense right up against the headliner if you want. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:40 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Jesse, I am 6'3" tall and am wondering if when folded up (not in use) will the visor become an obstruction? Do you think taller pilots/passengers heads might bump into the visors when folded back along the roofline? -Ben ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W From: "Vern W. Smith" Tim, Thinking of the process. Would it be much work to put a web page together that was like eopinion, but just for efis systems? It could list the basic facts and then have a place where individuals could give their observation of the system. This last part would be subjective but still informative. Just a thought, Vern Smith (#324) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W As far as the 17,569,293 panel combinations goes, I actually was hoping to put together an EFIS FAB page (Features, advantages, benefits), with perhaps a disadvantages side too. The problem is, it really takes first-hand and pretty in depth knowledge of a system to really be able to point out it's strengths and weaknesses. How do you get the knowledge for all the systems? How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on? How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list? Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad? If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective? Who in their right mind has the time for such a project? and many more... Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Rob Kermanj wrote: > > Sounds like a Tim Olson job! > > do not archive. > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:24 AM PST US From: JSMcGrew@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W Tim, Try putting up an EFIS Wiki and let us do the work. -Jim In a message dated 5/22/2007 8:13:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Tim@MyRV10.com writes: How do you get the knowledge for all the systems? How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on? How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list? Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad? If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective? Who in their right mind has the time for such a project? and many more... Jim "Scooter" McGrew _http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew_ (http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:11 AM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W If there is enough interest, I would be willing to code and host something like that. I am not much of a layout designer but can hack some ASP code to make it work. But, other people would have to provide the content...... Rene' Felker N423CF 40322 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:02 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W Tim, Thinking of the process. Would it be much work to put a web page together that was like eopinion, but just for efis systems? It could list the basic facts and then have a place where individuals could give their observation of the system. This last part would be subjective but still informative. Just a thought, Vern Smith (#324) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W As far as the 17,569,293 panel combinations goes, I actually was hoping to put together an EFIS FAB page (Features, advantages, benefits), with perhaps a disadvantages side too. The problem is, it really takes first-hand and pretty in depth knowledge of a system to really be able to point out it's strengths and weaknesses. How do you get the knowledge for all the systems? How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on? How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list? Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad? If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective? Who in their right mind has the time for such a project? and many more... Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Rob Kermanj wrote: > > Sounds like a Tim Olson job! > > do not archive. > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:29 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W For me personally, that would be a pretty big project, as although I have skills in lots of areas, scripted web programming isn't one of the big ones. Not to mention it would take some time to put content together and post it. But, it is a good idea. I do think you'd end up with some Looooooong replies and threads though. I'll have to think through how I could help with this one. I will say that I wouldn't hold your breath though, because it could take some time. Some of those web pages I throw together as write-ups actually take a few hours per page to dig up the info and post. It's fun, but it's not something that's easy to fit into a normal day and still get any sleep. It may be that if "power users" with the various systems could write up a common format of details about the features of their systems, I could put a page together for each type, with a list of features and pros and cons and limitations. Then, I could just take any info that people mail me as additional comments and link that as a separate text for reading. As long as it didn't continue on updating the comments forever it would be somewhat manageable. We'll just have to see... Jim's EFIS Wiki idea is good too. I just have to find the time and a good structure for it to support all the major EFIS systems. For the actual Chelton owners, I made CheltonEFISpilots.com, but that's really more of a forum for specific owners and users of the system so once someone has made their choice there isn't constant garbage in and out that doesn't add to the ownership/user experience. It's too bad not every system has a private support forum for it because once you own the product it's a great way to get more in depth knowledge. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Vern W. Smith wrote: > > Tim, > > Thinking of the process. Would it be much work to put a web page > together that was like eopinion, but just for efis systems? It could > list the basic facts and then have a place where individuals could give > their observation of the system. This last part would be subjective but > still informative. > > Just a thought, > > Vern Smith (#324) > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:36 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W I don't think I would get a lot out of it personally since I have been through a lot of the reviews already, but I would probably refer people to it regularly. If the content were added by people who have flown, I think it could be a fantastic resource for that headache-causing decision-making process. I would certainly give my input (good and bad) on what I have experience with (Dynon, TruTrak, Garmin stack items) Do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W If there is enough interest, I would be willing to code and host something like that. I am not much of a layout designer but can hack some ASP code to make it work. But, other people would have to provide the content...... Rene' Felker N423CF 40322 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:02 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W Tim, Thinking of the process. Would it be much work to put a web page together that was like eopinion, but just for efis systems? It could list the basic facts and then have a place where individuals could give their observation of the system. This last part would be subjective but still informative. Just a thought, Vern Smith (#324) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W As far as the 17,569,293 panel combinations goes, I actually was hoping to put together an EFIS FAB page (Features, advantages, benefits), with perhaps a disadvantages side too. The problem is, it really takes first-hand and pretty in depth knowledge of a system to really be able to point out it's strengths and weaknesses. How do you get the knowledge for all the systems? How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on? How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list? Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad? If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective? Who in their right mind has the time for such a project? and many more... Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Rob Kermanj wrote: > > Sounds like a Tim Olson job! > > do not archive. > -- 3:49 PM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:55 AM PST US From: Scott Schmidt Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W The Cheltons are more than wonderful, they are amazing. I read the same article about the IFR accidents in Aftermath and thought the same thing,"If those pilots had Cheltons and had their flight plan in it, they would probably all be alive today." When I fly IFR I load the 430 which then transfers all the data over to Grand Rapids, then I load the Chelton with the flight plan. The situational awareness of the HITS is where the Cheltons shine. I have both the Grand Rapids and the Cheltons in my panel and if I were to do it all over again I would put a three screen Chelton system in. Now the price difference is huge, I paid around $10K for my Grand Rapids and the Cheltons were $27K and I still may have to purchase the PinPoint AHRS down the road which is another $3K I think. The Cheltons are also great for VFR flight but the Grand Rapids are just as good for that application. It is very nice to have the HITS for VFR approaches to unfamiliar airports especially when they have parallel runways. I like the customization of the engine page on Grand Rapids better but it isn't that big of a deal. I really like the support over at Grand Rapids although Chelton has already done much better than Direct2Avionics ever did. I have about 12 hours behind the G1000, and now have 180 hours behind the Cheltons and Grand Rapids and I can say the Cheltons really have impressed me beyond what I thought. Just like anything, and like Tim said, go fly behind them and see the difference yourself. Three screens really would be nice for the Cheltons because of all the different screen options. The OP Technologies stuff look really cool too. I can't wait to play with that at Oshkosh. By the way, I am going to upgrade my 430 to WAAS sometime this year just to have it but my Cheltons will still be driving the autopilot and I will only monitor the 430W. One other observation I have heard from non-pilots that I take up is how relaxed they feel when the see those Cheltons and Grand Rapids in the panel. There is always some anxiety when passengers first here about going flying in an experimental but after they fly I have heard that the panel is not what they expected and they felt safer because of it, kind of interesting. Scott Schmidt scottmschmidt@yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:31:29 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W Bill Schlatterer wrote: > > Just another view but picking the right panel becomes a lot easier if you > define the mission first. Chelton are great, Fully coupled autopilots are > wonderful, WAAS GPS supreme and you can get it all for only a gazillion > dollars. The question in my mind is how much do we really need,... Granted > if it's a "want" then all the discussion about price and package is moot. ( > BTW, Tim defined his mission as "a real geek, and a pilot who looks at that > grey thick wet layer of clouds as a perfect day" so if that is not you, it > will make a difference") > Actually, that statement I made was less of my "mission", but much more my "style". My "mission" might better be summed up like this slightly edited reply to an offline comment I got. "When people say I don't "need" all that stuff in the panel, I think....as far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to trust my "superior" (laughing) skills are good enough to put my families life on the line with, risking their lives unnecessarily. For me, what I "need" is "the best I can do". It may cost a few dollars, but I want every bit of ease, safety, and help that I can get, so that I can be more assured that I'll have another day to fly another flight." For me, it's about totally enjoying IFR flight, but putting all the technology to good use in actually keeping my family and passengers alive. IFR flight isn't something you dabble in. VFR and IFR are absolute black and white, when you play by the rules. For a VFR only pilot, I wouldn't get any of the high-end systems, and my main GPS would just be a 496 even as a gadget guy. For an IFR pilot, there is a lot more at stake. The accident records clearly state the highly increased risk in GA IFR flight, especially single-pilot. Having a very good system at your hands is like having a 2nd pilot. In fact, when I first began my actual IFR experience post-training, I immediately purchased an autopilot for my old plane, because I was not willing to even consider flying my family IFR without an autopilot. This is just an extension of that caution, brought about by a little more experience, and, because it's possible to GREATLY increase the survival chances in an IFR aircraft with the technology today. There are so absolutely many accidents that need never happen. I remember reading an article recently where a plane flew a few hundred feet below the glideslope due to some misc. errors in reading when to descend on final. With todays synthetic vision approaches, that kind of thing just doesn't need to happen. It's a world where the slightest mis-interpretation of a piece of paper can mean sudden death. Even WITH the equipment, there is plenty of risk, but for those who fly their families (IFR), what do you want to do to minimize it? I'm selfish enough in that I love IFR flight so much that I'll actually be willing to FLY IFR with them on board, whereas I could just adamantly become a VFR pilot, and ignore that risk. But, I'm also not willing to make it harder than I have to, to ensure their long-term health. Many have seen my kids photos.....what do YOU think I should consider Danielle's value as.....$5,000, $20,000, or $50,000? And is Colleen worth more, or less? Quite literally, the money I spent has the potential to save just one, very minor, mistake while in IMC, at some point in our lives, that will make even $100,000 for that extra "software feature" worth every penny. So my mission is the ability to fly in IMC with as little risk of life and limb as possible. Also, I know that this kind of discussion bores the ba-jeeses out of some people, but keep in mind that in that survey done by Van's way back as to what kind of plane (IFR or VFR) the builders were building, the vast majority were building IFR aircraft. So, I usually prefer to consider meaningful panel discussions as IFR panel discussions. If it's a VFR panel, there's very little that is critical about planning a panel. Wouldn't it be cool if 5 years from now, the accident record for IFR flight were to actually equal what it is for VFR flight...and then some!?! (If we could just get people to fill up with fuel when needed, that would even help the VFR's safety record) > For example, I fly a lot in the south, Ark, LA, Texas, Ok and normally > approaches flown to mins plus 500 are good enough. I would guess that to be > 80% of the time when you actually need an approach which is an even smaller > amount of your total flight time. This is from memory but I have flown > about 40 cross country trips in the last two years (200-400) miles. All > have been filed IFR, of them only 5 or 6 actually required an approach at > the end and then only one was to mins plus about 300. Everything else was > basically just to let down through a layer to about 1,000 agl. BTW, My > whole attitude/experience would be different if I flew in the North East or > in California Coastal fog! Very true...but now you're arguing that a person who's only going to be doing minimal low approaches should maybe think about lesser equipment, right? IMHO, it's probably the opposite, and your point would be perfectly valid. Here's my thought.... It's hard enough for a private pilot to stay IFR current, with plenty of IMC experience. If you're going to fly approaches in IMC, the pilot with less currency could probably benefit more from some of the more substantial equipment than the guy who does it every week, which your 40 flights is quite a portion of a year. You may indeed have the "superior" skills that I laughingly mentioned about myself above. Then, it's just a matter of the same economics of what is the value to you in life and limb dollars? (Keep in mind I really believe that some of today's technology has the breakthrough possibility of changing the accident rate....and SOMEBODY is going to die doing it, so why not err on the safe side?) > > All of the really nice IFR stuff is only needed at the mins so you are > buying a lot of equipment for the rare approach to mins. In most cases, you > are put on vectors, intercept the approach NAV course from vectors, and then > descend from the FAF at a fixed rate of 400-800 fpm to mins plus 400- 500 or > more. Given that, any equipment that will let you fly with a heading bug > while holding altitude, while monitoring the approach VOR or GPS but > preferentially by GPS for spatial awareness will comfortably work for any > but the most die hard IFR pilots. At the FAF, dial in your descent rate and > leave the NAV coupled and you really don't need a coupled glide slope to get > comfortably to mins plus 500 or so. > I don't disagree with your thoughts for the most part. That's how I feel about my backup gauges....I mean, how much do you absolutely need when the crap hits the fan? With ATC help, and radar contact, you can probably pull off a whole lot if you stay calm. As far as I'm concerned, you have it exactly right for how I feel if I have a major EFIS failure. Other than that though, for a few bucks I have the opportunity to keep that safety level up. For what it's worth, some of my more fearful moments were not on the low portion of an approach. In fact, on the last few seconds before breaking out, it hasn't been bad at all. For me the climb phase, and some enroute and vectoring phase time has been pretty tough. Spatial disorientation is something I became acutely aware of, along with vertigo. Interestingly, while I commonly at least felt the "leans" in turbulent IMC before, I haven't had that experience with synthetic vision. I can only surmise that this is partly due to the added "visibility" I'm now seeing. There are times, that I can honestly say that I had my hands full just keeping myself hand-flying the plane to keep it upright while feeling the leans in a big way. Having that experience was pretty humbling. I do understand that it's something that can be overcome, but, does the *average* IFR pilot fly enough approaches to realistically keep their proficiency to what is *really* required for safety? (Not the standard legal definition of currency) Also, it wouldn't be responsible of me to tell someone that there's such a thing as "light" IFR where you just go busting through thin layers and then continue on top. You truly can get yourself into some situations that way. I catch your comment about if you were in the North East or California's coastal fog, but in almost all areas of the country you can find some tough IFR flying, and the question is are you planning to take your plane all over the country and just fly VFR when you get some soggy clouds in your way? > Now, all of this is up for grabs if you really want to fly to 200' mins on > the rare occasion but reasonable risk management on the ground prior to > take-off makes even the most basic equipment more than adequate "most" of > the time. > > Bottom line is that you can have a nice economical IFR panel that will work > well with nominal flight management or a really high dollar system that will > take you to mins with your hands off. Knowing which you will be comfortable > with should be the first part of the planning process. In some cases, we > just can't afford the stuff we would like to have and fly with less but > manage the risk better. Your call, but knowing what you really want to do > "most" of the time is important. The other question you have to ask is "if > I buy this fancy system, will I (the pilot) be ready to take it to mins when > the time comes." > All good points. I do agree that financial things do play a part in the decision process. For me, I would probably be more of an IFR avoider with the family on board without the gear, yet I feel that experience is experience, and the only way to actually GET the experience is to DO the flight, if Convection, hail, ice, and lightning, and turbulence aren't involved. Personally, knowing that not everyone can afford exactly what they want, I would encourage people to do whatever they can from a proficiency and personal-minimums standpoint to minimize their risk. Proficiency is expensive though too, as it costs $50/hr just for the fuel to keep proficient. Also, I agree with your sentiments about will the pilot be ready, if they are used to flying the fancy system. Having that fancy system also requires you to stay proficient at it's operation...the same as any GPS/NAV/COM of course. I worried about how it would be if not only the EFIS failed, but what if I had to hand-fly with or without the EFIS. So far I haven't felt like I will have a problem keeping hand-flying proficient, although it's tough to fly as good as the computer these days. It pays to try to stay current in all regards. There again, the pilots best friend in an emergency is his autopilot...if it's still working. > If you plan on serious IFR and need that kind of panel for really hard IFR, > then don't forget that heated pitot and static ports and fuel vents are > things to consider just like wing and prop de-ice. All nice but more > complexity and more dollars. HOWEVER if you fly IFR at all, you just gotta > have a Garmin 396/496 with weather! It's the real minimum IFR equipment in > my mind. Also great points. You're absolutely right about the Wx. It's one of those things that I don't know what I'd do without. Attached is a WSI screenshot from Saturday. It was very helpful knowing exactly which direction held the large cells, and how thick the line was. It was a VFR flight, which is much more comfortable when you have any red spots in your area. The visual picture said go, but only when diverting from the direct route. FWIW, I actually had the offer of wing de-ice, but decided to pass on that one in favor of avoiding ice altogether. But since I passed, a good buddy o'pal of mine will now get the honors of having the first de-ice'd RV-10 out there. Yep, it's coming available down the road. Add my .02 to everyone's .02, and pretty soon we'll be millionaires! Just read Deems's post. Totally wonderful information there as well. I especially agree with #4. While I know some of the limitations of some of the other systems, I don't know all of the exact positive features, so I speak mainly to my own knowledge base of the Chelton. Many of the others got scratched off the list as I went along when I found something that was a deal-breaker to me...but that doesn't mean that it's not something that fits your goals. I love talking about the capabilities of what I have. Unlike when you talk about the RV-10 and have to admit that the doors suck, when I talk EFIS I really have very little to complain about, and that's after getting married to it and having the honeymoon pass. Tim > > Pick the mission, then pick the panel. > > Just my .02 > > Bill S > 7a Ark > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:11 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W > > > This list cracks me up sometimes. ;) > > I have to say, to me, a real geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey thick > wet layer of clouds as a perfect day to go for a pleasure flight and build > some experience, the panel is my favorite part of the plane. > It's not a status thing, or an ego thing, but a genuine interest in actually > taking a creation I made, and have it do flights with ease that were painful > to me only 2,3, or 5 years ago. There is no comparison to the old equipment > when you l > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:53 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy From: "jim berry" Jesse, I would like a full set. Thanks. Jim Berry 6033 S Beeler St, Greenwood Village, Co 80111-5225 Ph 303-779-3607 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114404#114404 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:10 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W From: "Vern W. Smith" I don't think it is reasonable or practical to think one person will populate all the information. But, as you suggested, a common format or template that others could fill in would work well. I for one would be happy to set down with some of the manufactures and grill them for the needed information and then write it up in a specific format. Updates would be a challenge. Things are changing fast enough some of the vender can't even keep their websites up to date. So how could we keep it up to date for all the options? Vern (#324) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W For me personally, that would be a pretty big project, as although I have skills in lots of areas, scripted web programming isn't one of the big ones. Not to mention it would take some time to put content together and post it. But, it is a good idea. I do think you'd end up with some Looooooong replies and threads though. I'll have to think through how I could help with this one. I will say that I wouldn't hold your breath though, because it could take some time. Some of those web pages I throw together as write-ups actually take a few hours per page to dig up the info and post. It's fun, but it's not something that's easy to fit into a normal day and still get any sleep. It may be that if "power users" with the various systems could write up a common format of details about the features of their systems, I could put a page together for each type, with a list of features and pros and cons and limitations. Then, I could just take any info that people mail me as additional comments and link that as a separate text for reading. As long as it didn't continue on updating the comments forever it would be somewhat manageable. We'll just have to see... Jim's EFIS Wiki idea is good too. I just have to find the time and a good structure for it to support all the major EFIS systems. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:50 PM PST US From: "Don Fanning" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy I would like a full set. We can install it this summer when I come down for the annual and the ADI install (if it comes out). Don On 5/22/07, Jesse Saint wrote: > > I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-mail > and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping or a half > set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired shipping address > and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you can send in with a > check after I figure out the shipping charges. I should be able to do a > flat-rate USPS box or something like that. I do accept paypal, but they > charge a fee, so I would need the fee added to the amount you send. > > > GOD BLESS! > > > Jesse Saint > > Saint Aviation, Inc. > > jesse@saintaviation.com > > www.saintaviation.com > > Cell: 352-427-0285 > > Fax: 815-377-3694 > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bobby J. Hughes > *Sent:* Thursday, April 12, 2007 6:50 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy > > > Jessie, > > > At $200 count me in. > > > Enjoyed our visit at Lockhart. > > > Bobby Hughes > > 40116 > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jesse Saint > *Sent:* Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:08 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy > > Sorry for the quality, but I have attached some pictures of our Rosen Sun > Visor installation. I am getting a quote on our custom mount from a local > machine shop and am getting a quote from Rosen on a group buy for the > visors. We tried to find a place on the sides to install a visor, but there > just isn't a good place to put it that won't block the pilot's vision when > he isn't using the visor. This is a 3-axis visor, so it can be used to > block sun from the pilot or copilot's front anywhere in the windshield and > can also block the pilot's right or copilot's left. Unfortunately we > couldn't find any way to block the sun from the pilot's left or copilot's > right except a suction cup or static cling piece. The visor base would > mount on the cabin top using two of the 4 screws that hold the front bar to > the cabin top. > > > Please let me know off the list if you are interested and I will put a > list together and let you know when I know how much it would cost. I am > hoping to keep it under $200 including the visor (big or small lense) and > the custom black-anodized base. > > > Jesse Saint > > Saint Aviation, Inc. > > jesse@saintaviation.com > > www.saintaviation.com > > Cell: 352-427-0285 > > Fax: 815-377-3694 > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > * * > > * > > * > > -- Don Liberty University Of: 434-592-4127 Cel: 434-944-5347 email: drdonfa@gmail.com Skype: drdonfanning MSN Messenger: dfanning@liberty.edu Web: www.luglobal.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy From: "Randy DeBauw" Don, Where are you located? Randy 40006 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Fanning Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:52 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy I would like a full set. We can install it this summer when I come down for the annual and the ADI install (if it comes out). Don On 5/22/07, Jesse Saint wrote: I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-mail and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping or a half set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you can send in with a check after I figure out the shipping charges. I should be able to do a flat-rate USPS box or something like that. I do accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so I would need the fee added to the amount you send. GOD BLESS! Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 6:50 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Jessie, At $200 count me in. Enjoyed our visit at Lockhart. Bobby Hughes 40116 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:08 PM Subject: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Sorry for the quality, but I have attached some pictures of our Rosen Sun Visor installation. I am getting a quote on our custom mount from a local machine shop and am getting a quote from Rosen on a group buy for the visors. We tried to find a place on the sides to install a visor, but there just isn't a good place to put it that won't block the pilot's vision when he isn't using the visor. This is a 3-axis visor, so it can be used to block sun from the pilot or copilot's front anywhere in the windshield and can also block the pilot's right or copilot's left. Unfortunately we couldn't find any way to block the sun from the pilot's left or copilot's right except a suction cup or static cling piece. The visor base would mount on the cabin top using two of the 4 screws that hold the front bar to the cabin top. Please let me know off the list if you are interested and I will put a list together and let you know when I know how much it would cost. I am hoping to keep it under $200 including the visor (big or small lense) and the custom black-anodized base. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com -- Don Liberty University Of: 434-592-4127 Cel: 434-944-5347 email: drdonfa@gmail.com Skype: drdonfanning MSN Messenger: dfanning@liberty.edu Web: www.luglobal.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:38 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." I see how you are, Deems is the only one to do something different? "GRIN" just how different are you looking for? Dan RV10 E -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:10 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline Bill, Don't ever be afraid to ask questions to the list or share your experiences. Many things have changed since a group of us decide to mutiny from a Yahoo list that practiced censorship back in early 2005. Some people have gone and new people have replaced them. The concern shown by some of us is over the tone of messages in the last year or so. When experience and knowledge is eschewed for the loud and inexperienced, the joy of participating and sharing is replaced with why bother. So conversations are taken underground, so to speak, between trusted few. Me, I am a first time builder and should never be taken as someone knowledgeable. I look to guys like John Cox, Dave Saylor, Kelly McMullen, Barrett, & Stein who have years of experience on multiple aircraft. Of course there are always builders extraordinaire like Tim who go way above and beyond documenting their experience for the community in addition to guys like Deems who are willing to be the first to do something different. So make sure you always give weight to responses based on real world experience of the poster. Take time to do research yourself and listen to all sides. Don't just have blind faith in something because you might like a guy or because he belongs to the same club as you. It doesn't mean they are any more experienced than some guy like me. ;-) Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MauleDriver Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:36 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline Pretty cryptic, but I think I unfortunately agree.... Everyone is soooo helpful here and so giving of their time and knowledge, and yet, by deciding not to use the public forum, some may be depriving others of their expertise. I would also hypothesize that many of us feel like relative newbies because we lack the depth of knowledge and skill possessed by the more experienced. Therefore, feeling like a newbie, one may hesitate from sharing their growing knowledge in the face of so many with so much more knowledge. There's a feedback loop in here somewhere that probably results in so many seemingly dead forums, i.e. RVxx So, you folks working on your finishing kits - please keep posting here! and you folks working on your tail and unwrapping those QB kits - please start posting here! I'm going to try to double my posting rate, hopefully it will help. Bill "still rearranging the goodies in my QB wings while slowly buttoning it up" Watson John W. Cox wrote: > > To the many who have begun communicating far more frequently offline > and remain committed to the sharing of builder information... I say > thank you for your continued sharing. > > To those who will eventually notice the slow change in intensity, > brevity of answers and the pursuit of capitalistic profits on this > list, I say " the silence can seem deafening at times". The frequency > of posts and depth of thoughtful answers should reflect the > approaching arrival of OSH and the completion of kits after years with > this list. > > How about that cold beer at Camp Condrey and those Red Sox... I will > have Fries with my Burger please? > > John Cox > > #600 > > Do not Archive > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:42 PM PST US From: "Cal Hoffman" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Count me in - I am at the right point to install. Cal Hoffman 97 Myrick Street Barnwell, SC 29812 803-541-5242 cehoffman@bellsouth.net I would like a full set of visors. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jesse Saint To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:32 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-mail and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping or a half set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you can send in with a check after I figure out the shipping charges. I should be able to do a flat-rate USPS box or something like that. I do accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so I would need the fee added to the amount you send. GOD BLESS! Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:30 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline Ya, you are a given. Crazy alternative engine types. Michael Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:18 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline I see how you are, Deems is the only one to do something different? "GRIN" just how different are you looking for? Dan RV10 E -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:10 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline Bill, Don't ever be afraid to ask questions to the list or share your experiences. Many things have changed since a group of us decide to mutiny from a Yahoo list that practiced censorship back in early 2005. Some people have gone and new people have replaced them. The concern shown by some of us is over the tone of messages in the last year or so. When experience and knowledge is eschewed for the loud and inexperienced, the joy of participating and sharing is replaced with why bother. So conversations are taken underground, so to speak, between trusted few. Me, I am a first time builder and should never be taken as someone knowledgeable. I look to guys like John Cox, Dave Saylor, Kelly McMullen, Barrett, & Stein who have years of experience on multiple aircraft. Of course there are always builders extraordinaire like Tim who go way above and beyond documenting their experience for the community in addition to guys like Deems who are willing to be the first to do something different. So make sure you always give weight to responses based on real world experience of the poster. Take time to do research yourself and listen to all sides. Don't just have blind faith in something because you might like a guy or because he belongs to the same club as you. It doesn't mean they are any more experienced than some guy like me. ;-) Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MauleDriver Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:36 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Taking the deep questions Offline Pretty cryptic, but I think I unfortunately agree.... Everyone is soooo helpful here and so giving of their time and knowledge, and yet, by deciding not to use the public forum, some may be depriving others of their expertise. I would also hypothesize that many of us feel like relative newbies because we lack the depth of knowledge and skill possessed by the more experienced. Therefore, feeling like a newbie, one may hesitate from sharing their growing knowledge in the face of so many with so much more knowledge. There's a feedback loop in here somewhere that probably results in so many seemingly dead forums, i.e. RVxx So, you folks working on your finishing kits - please keep posting here! and you folks working on your tail and unwrapping those QB kits - please start posting here! I'm going to try to double my posting rate, hopefully it will help. Bill "still rearranging the goodies in my QB wings while slowly buttoning it up" Watson John W. Cox wrote: > > To the many who have begun communicating far more frequently offline > and remain committed to the sharing of builder information... I say > thank you for your continued sharing. > > To those who will eventually notice the slow change in intensity, > brevity of answers and the pursuit of capitalistic profits on this > list, I say " the silence can seem deafening at times". The frequency > of posts and depth of thoughtful answers should reflect the > approaching arrival of OSH and the completion of kits after years with > this list. > > How about that cold beer at Camp Condrey and those Red Sox... I will > have Fries with my Burger please? > > John Cox > > #600 > > Do not Archive > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:23 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W What about using the Matronics Wiki. http://wiki.matronics.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Michael Do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of JSMcGrew@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:09 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W Tim, Try putting up an EFIS Wiki and let us do the work. -Jim In a message dated 5/22/2007 8:13:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Tim@MyRV10 .com writes: How do you get the knowledge for all the systems? How do you keep it updated with all the changes going on? How HUGE of a list of features do you want to list? Can you get reviewers to objectively list the good and the bad? If *I* wrote the list, would anyone even trust if I were objective? Who in their right mind has the time for such a project? and many more... Jim "Scooter" McGrew http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew ________________________________ See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:20 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W Tim, also great points but all I was really suggesting is that while everyone that flies IFR should be capable of safe easy flight to mins, there are different ways to get there. I agree that one shouldn't fly IFR if they can only handle "light" IFR but the equipment you choose can dictate how much risk you are willing to handle. Like you I'm sure, there should be no IFR flight without a solid backup(out)plan. If I have an autopilot failure, I'm not going to mins if there is any way out but I would probably hand fly to LOC mins plus 500 with no qualms. Risk management is what IFR is all about. You feel better with a full load of equipment, my suggestion is that it isn't required for the majority of IFR flight BUT if I had the budget I would have it too. BTW, I consider an AP mandatory for single pilot IFR so I would not even consider a true "minimalist" approach to panel choices. Also not arguing the "light IFR" point, but there is VFR and Marginal VFR and there really is IFR and LOW IFR so you do get to make a choice of how much you're willing to bite off. Your mode of risk management is to load up the airplane, be very pilot current, and you're good to go. More equipment IS better risk management but at a cost. If you can do it, I would too but after the first 15K of equipment, the next 10K or 20K is just cause it makes us marginally safer if you attack the same conditions. If you just don't go there when the ceiling is 300, that's a way to do it as well. Nice discussion, always enjoy reading your posts. So last question,... Would you say that a basic IFR airplane with AP and on board Wx is safer than a loaded panel with no weather ? We do have to make choices on limited budgets ;-) A real question for a lot of folks is to either have a better(more expensive) AP/NAV combination or alternately add WX with some additional monthly fees. Personally, I will take the Wx every time if I can't afford both. Bill S BTW, I did opt for a dual GRT, 430W, TT VSVG, Garmin 396 with WX and backup instruments in my 7 and would have done Chelton if I had the dough but didn't :-( Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:31 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W Bill Schlatterer wrote: > --> > > Just another view but picking the right panel becomes a lot easier if > you define the mission first. Chelton are great, Fully coupled > autopilots are wonderful, WAAS GPS supreme and you can get it all for > only a gazillion dollars. The question in my mind is how much do we > really need,... Granted if it's a "want" then all the discussion about > price and package is moot. ( BTW, Tim defined his mission as "a real > geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey thick wet layer of clouds as > a perfect day" so if that is not you, it will make a difference") > Actually, that statement I made was less of my "mission", but much more my "style". My "mission" might better be summed up like this slightly edited reply to an offline comment I got. "When people say I don't "need" all that stuff in the panel, I think....as far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to trust my "superior" (laughing) skills are good enough to put my families life on the line with, risking their lives unnecessarily. For me, what I "need" is "the best I can do". It may cost a few dollars, but I want every bit of ease, safety, and help that I can get, so that I can be more assured that I'll have another day to fly another flight." For me, it's about totally enjoying IFR flight, but putting all the technology to good use in actually keeping my family and passengers alive. IFR flight isn't something you dabble in. VFR and IFR are absolute black and white, when you play by the rules. For a VFR only pilot, I wouldn't get any of the high-end systems, and my main GPS would just be a 496 even as a gadget guy. For an IFR pilot, there is a lot more at stake. The accident records clearly state the highly increased risk in GA IFR flight, especially single-pilot. Having a very good system at your hands is like having a 2nd pilot. In fact, when I first began my actual IFR experience post-training, I immediately purchased an autopilot for my old plane, because I was not willing to even consider flying my family IFR without an autopilot. This is just an extension of that caution, brought about by a little more experience, and, because it's possible to GREATLY increase the survival chances in an IFR aircraft with the technology today. There are so absolutely many accidents that need never happen. I remember reading an article recently where a plane flew a few hundred feet below the glideslope due to some misc. errors in reading when to descend on final. With todays synthetic vision approaches, that kind of thing just doesn't need to happen. It's a world where the slightest mis-interpretation of a piece of paper can mean sudden death. Even WITH the equipment, there is plenty of risk, but for those who fly their families (IFR), what do you want to do to minimize it? I'm selfish enough in that I love IFR flight so much that I'll actually be willing to FLY IFR with them on board, whereas I could just adamantly become a VFR pilot, and ignore that risk. But, I'm also not willing to make it harder than I have to, to ensure their long-term health. Many have seen my kids photos.....what do YOU think I should consider Danielle's value as.....$5,000, $20,000, or $50,000? And is Colleen worth more, or less? Quite literally, the money I spent has the potential to save just one, very minor, mistake while in IMC, at some point in our lives, that will make even $100,000 for that extra "software feature" worth every penny. So my mission is the ability to fly in IMC with as little risk of life and limb as possible. Also, I know that this kind of discussion bores the ba-jeeses out of some people, but keep in mind that in that survey done by Van's way back as to what kind of plane (IFR or VFR) the builders were building, the vast majority were building IFR aircraft. So, I usually prefer to consider meaningful panel discussions as IFR panel discussions. If it's a VFR panel, there's very little that is critical about planning a panel. Wouldn't it be cool if 5 years from now, the accident record for IFR flight were to actually equal what it is for VFR flight...and then some!?! (If we could just get people to fill up with fuel when needed, that would even help the VFR's safety record) > For example, I fly a lot in the south, Ark, LA, Texas, Ok and > normally approaches flown to mins plus 500 are good enough. I would > guess that to be 80% of the time when you actually need an approach > which is an even smaller amount of your total flight time. This is > from memory but I have flown about 40 cross country trips in the last > two years (200-400) miles. All have been filed IFR, of them only 5 or > 6 actually required an approach at the end and then only one was to > mins plus about 300. Everything else was basically just to let down > through a layer to about 1,000 agl. BTW, My whole attitude/experience > would be different if I flew in the North East or in California Coastal fog! Very true...but now you're arguing that a person who's only going to be doing minimal low approaches should maybe think about lesser equipment, right? IMHO, it's probably the opposite, and your point would be perfectly valid. Here's my thought.... It's hard enough for a private pilot to stay IFR current, with plenty of IMC experience. If you're going to fly approaches in IMC, the pilot with less currency could probably benefit more from some of the more substantial equipment than the guy who does it every week, which your 40 flights is quite a portion of a year. You may indeed have the "superior" skills that I laughingly mentioned about myself above. Then, it's just a matter of the same economics of what is the value to you in life and limb dollars? (Keep in mind I really believe that some of today's technology has the breakthrough possibility of changing the accident rate....and SOMEBODY is going to die doing it, so why not err on the safe side?) > > All of the really nice IFR stuff is only needed at the mins so you are > buying a lot of equipment for the rare approach to mins. In most > cases, you are put on vectors, intercept the approach NAV course from > vectors, and then descend from the FAF at a fixed rate of 400-800 fpm > to mins plus 400- 500 or more. Given that, any equipment that will > let you fly with a heading bug while holding altitude, while > monitoring the approach VOR or GPS but preferentially by GPS for > spatial awareness will comfortably work for any but the most die hard > IFR pilots. At the FAF, dial in your descent rate and leave the NAV > coupled and you really don't need a coupled glide slope to get comfortably to mins plus 500 or so. > I don't disagree with your thoughts for the most part. That's how I feel about my backup gauges....I mean, how much do you absolutely need when the crap hits the fan? With ATC help, and radar contact, you can probably pull off a whole lot if you stay calm. As far as I'm concerned, you have it exactly right for how I feel if I have a major EFIS failure. Other than that though, for a few bucks I have the opportunity to keep that safety level up. For what it's worth, some of my more fearful moments were not on the low portion of an approach. In fact, on the last few seconds before breaking out, it hasn't been bad at all. For me the climb phase, and some enroute and vectoring phase time has been pretty tough. Spatial disorientation is something I became acutely aware of, along with vertigo. Interestingly, while I commonly at least felt the "leans" in turbulent IMC before, I haven't had that experience with synthetic vision. I can only surmise that this is partly due to the added "visibility" I'm now seeing. There are times, that I can honestly say that I had my hands full just keeping myself hand-flying the plane to keep it upright while feeling the leans in a big way. Having that experience was pretty humbling. I do understand that it's something that can be overcome, but, does the *average* IFR pilot fly enough approaches to realistically keep their proficiency to what is *really* required for safety? (Not the standard legal definition of currency) Also, it wouldn't be responsible of me to tell someone that there's such a thing as "light" IFR where you just go busting through thin layers and then continue on top. You truly can get yourself into some situations that way. I catch your comment about if you were in the North East or California's coastal fog, but in almost all areas of the country you can find some tough IFR flying, and the question is are you planning to take your plane all over the country and just fly VFR when you get some soggy clouds in your way? > Now, all of this is up for grabs if you really want to fly to 200' > mins on the rare occasion but reasonable risk management on the ground > prior to take-off makes even the most basic equipment more than > adequate "most" of the time. > > Bottom line is that you can have a nice economical IFR panel that will > work well with nominal flight management or a really high dollar > system that will take you to mins with your hands off. Knowing which > you will be comfortable with should be the first part of the planning > process. In some cases, we just can't afford the stuff we would like > to have and fly with less but manage the risk better. Your call, but > knowing what you really want to do "most" of the time is important. > The other question you have to ask is "if I buy this fancy system, > will I (the pilot) be ready to take it to mins when the time comes." > All good points. I do agree that financial things do play a part in the decision process. For me, I would probably be more of an IFR avoider with the family on board without the gear, yet I feel that experience is experience, and the only way to actually GET the experience is to DO the flight, if Convection, hail, ice, and lightning, and turbulence aren't involved. Personally, knowing that not everyone can afford exactly what they want, I would encourage people to do whatever they can from a proficiency and personal-minimums standpoint to minimize their risk. Proficiency is expensive though too, as it costs $50/hr just for the fuel to keep proficient. Also, I agree with your sentiments about will the pilot be ready, if they are used to flying the fancy system. Having that fancy system also requires you to stay proficient at it's operation...the same as any GPS/NAV/COM of course. I worried about how it would be if not only the EFIS failed, but what if I had to hand-fly with or without the EFIS. So far I haven't felt like I will have a problem keeping hand-flying proficient, although it's tough to fly as good as the computer these days. It pays to try to stay current in all regards. There again, the pilots best friend in an emergency is his autopilot...if it's still working. > If you plan on serious IFR and need that kind of panel for really hard > IFR, then don't forget that heated pitot and static ports and fuel > vents are things to consider just like wing and prop de-ice. All nice > but more complexity and more dollars. HOWEVER if you fly IFR at all, > you just gotta have a Garmin 396/496 with weather! It's the real > minimum IFR equipment in my mind. Also great points. You're absolutely right about the Wx. It's one of those things that I don't know what I'd do without. Attached is a WSI screenshot from Saturday. It was very helpful knowing exactly which direction held the large cells, and how thick the line was. It was a VFR flight, which is much more comfortable when you have any red spots in your area. The visual picture said go, but only when diverting from the direct route. FWIW, I actually had the offer of wing de-ice, but decided to pass on that one in favor of avoiding ice altogether. But since I passed, a good buddy o'pal of mine will now get the honors of having the first de-ice'd RV-10 out there. Yep, it's coming available down the road. Add my .02 to everyone's .02, and pretty soon we'll be millionaires! Just read Deems's post. Totally wonderful information there as well. I especially agree with #4. While I know some of the limitations of some of the other systems, I don't know all of the exact positive features, so I speak mainly to my own knowledge base of the Chelton. Many of the others got scratched off the list as I went along when I found something that was a deal-breaker to me...but that doesn't mean that it's not something that fits your goals. I love talking about the capabilities of what I have. Unlike when you talk about the RV-10 and have to admit that the doors suck, when I talk EFIS I really have very little to complain about, and that's after getting married to it and having the honeymoon pass. Tim > > Pick the mission, then pick the panel. > > Just my .02 > > Bill S > 7a Ark > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:11 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was > GNS-430W > > > This list cracks me up sometimes. ;) > > I have to say, to me, a real geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey > thick wet layer of clouds as a perfect day to go for a pleasure flight > and build some experience, the panel is my favorite part of the plane. > It's not a status thing, or an ego thing, but a genuine interest in > actually taking a creation I made, and have it do flights with ease > that were painful to me only 2,3, or 5 years ago. There is no > comparison to the old equipment when you l > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:51 PM PST US From: "Neal George" Subject: RV10-List: FS: MT Prop Gov Listers - I have a new MT prop governor for sale. $1075, shipped. Neal E. George 2023 Everglades Drive Navarre, FL 32566 Home - 850-515-0640 Cell - 850-218-4838 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:23 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: FS: MT Prop Gov From: "John W. Cox" Why would you sell? What are you going to run with? John ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neal George Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:40 PM Subject: RV10-List: FS: MT Prop Gov Listers - I have a new MT prop governor for sale. $1075, shipped. Neal E. George 2023 Everglades Drive Navarre, FL 32566 Home - 850-515-0640 Cell - 850-218-4838 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy From: "John W. Cox" Okay, call me jaded but I just received an invitation to migrate over to the RV-10 web reflector offered by Doug Reeves. Question #1 - Now, am I the only one? Question #2, is it correct that this list has become a private conversation between Saint Aviation and individuals who cannot take private conversations private? Cause I am not on any list for Rosen Visors or Saint Aviation business endevours nor see value in the build for knowing who they all are. Tim, is that how you handled the axle extension offer? At one time this was a sharing forum for diverse builders with common interests. John Cox #40600 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cal Hoffman Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:56 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Count me in - I am at the right point to install. Cal Hoffman 97 Myrick Street Barnwell, SC 29812 803-541-5242 cehoffman@bellsouth.net I would like a full set of visors. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jesse Saint To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:32 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-mail and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping or a half set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you can send in with a check after I figure out the shipping charges. I should be able to do a flat-rate USPS box or something like that. I do accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so I would need the fee added to the amount you send. GOD BLESS! Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:55 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W Bill, This is a fantastic reply. I hope you don't get the idea that I'm dictating to anyone or suggesting that everyone do the same, or even that my choices are the "right" or necessary choices. It's really all so widely individual that indeed there are as many appropriate combinations as there are builders....although not all builders choose appropriate combinations for themselves. ;) As far as philosophy of IFR flight goes, I can tell that we agree far more than any disagreement...that's for sure. Your thoughts are pretty much really good and valid as far as I'm concerned. About the only thing I disagree with below is that jumping to some of the more expensive stuff only adds marginal improvement. For 80-90% of the feature list, I'd agree, but I really think there are a couple of things available today that if widely used would no doubt change the accident rates significantly. But from a general point, you're right...the more money you throw at anything, the more marginal the return gets. LNav/Vnav GPS approaches vs. LPV approaches is an example. Regarding your last question about Wx. I have actually said that before. The single best thing in my plane that changes everything is the onboard Wx as far as changing the overall possiblities of flight. It's well worth the fee. Behind that I'd have to say is the synthetic vision and HITS and the ability for the AP to actually do a hands-off approach. Coming from a steam gauge background, the WX changes completely the situations you'd get in to. But then the Synthetic vision and HITS completely change the ease at which approaches are flown. If someone were on their last few hundred bucks on their panel though, with even a VFR panel, my #1 recommendation would be for WX...and that's even for any VFR x/c pilot. You're right that it's just a totally experience changing feature. The features I see as far less useful are things like on-screen charts. There are good ways to deal with that for much less money. Many people don't realize that Jepp subscriptions for things like that are very very pricey, and the feature itself costs a fortune too. The G900 unlock code for chartview costs $3000 alone, plus the subscription. The GMX-200 costs $2000 for the unlock code, and then *requires* a subscription to jeppview for $738/yr + 100 to activate it. Jeppview is only available for Garmin and Avidyne right now. I have a pricey database subscription for the Chelton, which is a necessary evil just like on a GNS-430/530/480, but charts are much more reasonable on a tablet. $400 or less for the software, and $200/yr for a complete set of IFR/VFR/ Hi-Lo Alt Enroute, WAC's, and the works. That's actually affordable....and it's not the cheapest possible way to do things. So there are definitely features that are "nice" to have and add lots of cost, but only provide some marginal improvements. Even my tablet will overlay my plane on an approach chart, and it'll do it without messing up my screen display. Bill, I totally appreciate your 100% gentlemanly posts, and very great points. I know there are a lot of people reading, and it's a very worthy discussion. Having it with a guy with your demeanor is fantastic. No flame suit required. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Bill Schlatterer wrote: > > Tim, also great points but all I was really suggesting is that while > everyone that flies IFR should be capable of safe easy flight to mins, there > are different ways to get there. I agree that one shouldn't fly IFR if they > can only handle "light" IFR but the equipment you choose can dictate how > much risk you are willing to handle. Like you I'm sure, there should be no > IFR flight without a solid backup(out)plan. If I have an autopilot failure, > I'm not going to mins if there is any way out but I would probably hand fly > to LOC mins plus 500 with no qualms. Risk management is what IFR is all > about. You feel better with a full load of equipment, my suggestion is that > it isn't required for the majority of IFR flight BUT if I had the budget I > would have it too. BTW, I consider an AP mandatory for single pilot IFR so > I would not even consider a true "minimalist" approach to panel choices. > > Also not arguing the "light IFR" point, but there is VFR and Marginal VFR > and there really is IFR and LOW IFR so you do get to make a choice of how > much you're willing to bite off. Your mode of risk management is to load up > the airplane, be very pilot current, and you're good to go. More equipment > IS better risk management but at a cost. If you can do it, I would too but > after the first 15K of equipment, the next 10K or 20K is just cause it makes > us marginally safer if you attack the same conditions. If you just don't go > there when the ceiling is 300, that's a way to do it as well. > > Nice discussion, always enjoy reading your posts. So last question,... > Would you say that a basic IFR airplane with AP and on board Wx is safer > than a loaded panel with no weather ? We do have to make choices on limited > budgets ;-) A real question for a lot of folks is to either have a > better(more expensive) AP/NAV combination or alternately add WX with some > additional monthly fees. Personally, I will take the Wx every time if I > can't afford both. > > Bill S > > > BTW, I did opt for a dual GRT, 430W, TT VSVG, Garmin 396 with WX and backup > instruments in my 7 and would have done Chelton if I had the dough but > didn't :-( > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:31 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W > > > Bill Schlatterer wrote: >> --> >> >> Just another view but picking the right panel becomes a lot easier if >> you define the mission first. Chelton are great, Fully coupled >> autopilots are wonderful, WAAS GPS supreme and you can get it all for >> only a gazillion dollars. The question in my mind is how much do we >> really need,... Granted if it's a "want" then all the discussion about >> price and package is moot. ( BTW, Tim defined his mission as "a real >> geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey thick wet layer of clouds as >> a perfect day" so if that is not you, it will make a difference") >> > > Actually, that statement I made was less of my "mission", but much more my > "style". My "mission" might better be summed up like this slightly edited > reply to an offline comment I got. > > "When people say I don't "need" all that stuff in the panel, I think....as > far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to trust my "superior" > (laughing) skills are good enough to put my families life on the line > with, risking their lives unnecessarily. For me, what I "need" is "the best > I can do". It may cost a few dollars, but I want every bit of ease, safety, > and help that I can get, so that I can be more assured that I'll have > another day to fly another flight." > > For me, it's about totally enjoying IFR flight, but putting all the > technology to good use in actually keeping my family and passengers alive. > IFR flight isn't something you dabble in. VFR and IFR are absolute black > and white, when you play by the rules. For a VFR only pilot, I wouldn't get > any of the high-end systems, and my main GPS would just be a 496 even as a > gadget guy. For an IFR pilot, there is a lot more at stake. The accident > records clearly state the highly increased risk in GA IFR flight, especially > single-pilot. Having a very good system at your hands is like having a 2nd > pilot. In fact, when I first began my actual IFR experience post-training, > I immediately purchased an autopilot for my old plane, because I was not > willing to even consider flying my family IFR without an autopilot. This is > just an extension of that caution, brought about by a little more > experience, and, because it's possible to GREATLY increase the survival > chances in an IFR aircraft with the technology today. There are so > absolutely many accidents that need never happen. I remember reading an > article recently where a plane flew a few hundred feet below the glideslope > due to some misc. errors in reading when to descend on final. With todays > synthetic vision approaches, that kind of thing just doesn't need to happen. > It's a world where the slightest mis-interpretation of a piece of paper can > mean sudden death. Even WITH the equipment, there is plenty of risk, but > for those who fly their families (IFR), what do you want to do to minimize > it? I'm selfish enough in that I love IFR flight so much that I'll actually > be willing to FLY IFR with them on board, whereas I could just adamantly > become a VFR pilot, and ignore that risk. But, I'm also not willing > to make it harder than I have to, to ensure their long-term health. > Many have seen my kids photos.....what do YOU think I should consider > Danielle's value as.....$5,000, $20,000, or $50,000? And is Colleen worth > more, or less? Quite literally, the money I spent has the potential to save > just one, very minor, mistake while in IMC, at some point in our lives, that > will make even $100,000 for that extra "software feature" worth every penny. > > So my mission is the ability to fly in IMC with as little risk of life and > limb as possible. > > Also, I know that this kind of discussion bores the ba-jeeses out of some > people, but keep in mind that in that survey done by Van's way back as to > what kind of plane (IFR or VFR) the builders were building, the vast > majority were building IFR aircraft. So, I usually prefer to consider > meaningful panel discussions as IFR panel discussions. If it's a VFR panel, > there's very little that is critical about planning a panel. > > Wouldn't it be cool if 5 years from now, the accident record for IFR flight > were to actually equal what it is for VFR flight...and then some!?! (If we > could just get people to fill up with fuel when needed, that would even help > the VFR's safety record) > > >> For example, I fly a lot in the south, Ark, LA, Texas, Ok and >> normally approaches flown to mins plus 500 are good enough. I would >> guess that to be 80% of the time when you actually need an approach >> which is an even smaller amount of your total flight time. This is >> from memory but I have flown about 40 cross country trips in the last >> two years (200-400) miles. All have been filed IFR, of them only 5 or >> 6 actually required an approach at the end and then only one was to >> mins plus about 300. Everything else was basically just to let down >> through a layer to about 1,000 agl. BTW, My whole attitude/experience >> would be different if I flew in the North East or in California Coastal > fog! > > Very true...but now you're arguing that a person who's only going to be > doing minimal low approaches should maybe think about lesser equipment, > right? IMHO, it's probably the opposite, and your point would be perfectly > valid. Here's my thought.... > > It's hard enough for a private pilot to stay IFR current, with plenty of IMC > experience. If you're going to fly approaches in IMC, the pilot with less > currency could probably benefit more from some of the more substantial > equipment than the guy who does it every week, which your 40 flights is > quite a portion of a year. You may indeed have the "superior" skills that I > laughingly mentioned about myself above. > Then, it's just a matter of the same economics of what is the value to you > in life and limb dollars? (Keep in mind I really believe that some of > today's technology has the breakthrough possibility of changing the accident > rate....and SOMEBODY is going to die doing it, so why not err on the safe > side?) > > >> All of the really nice IFR stuff is only needed at the mins so you are >> buying a lot of equipment for the rare approach to mins. In most >> cases, you are put on vectors, intercept the approach NAV course from >> vectors, and then descend from the FAF at a fixed rate of 400-800 fpm >> to mins plus 400- 500 or more. Given that, any equipment that will >> let you fly with a heading bug while holding altitude, while >> monitoring the approach VOR or GPS but preferentially by GPS for >> spatial awareness will comfortably work for any but the most die hard >> IFR pilots. At the FAF, dial in your descent rate and leave the NAV >> coupled and you really don't need a coupled glide slope to get comfortably > to mins plus 500 or so. > > > I don't disagree with your thoughts for the most part. That's how I feel > about my backup gauges....I mean, how much do you absolutely need when the > crap hits the fan? With ATC help, and radar contact, you can probably pull > off a whole lot if you stay calm. As far as I'm concerned, you have it > exactly right for how I feel if I have a major EFIS failure. Other than > that though, for a few bucks I have the opportunity to keep that safety > level up. For what it's worth, some of my more fearful moments were not on > the low portion of an approach. > In fact, on the last few seconds before breaking out, it hasn't been bad at > all. For me the climb phase, and some enroute and vectoring phase time has > been pretty tough. Spatial disorientation is something I became acutely > aware of, along with vertigo. Interestingly, while I commonly at least felt > the "leans" in turbulent IMC before, I haven't had that experience with > synthetic vision. I can only surmise that this is partly due to the added > "visibility" I'm now seeing. There are times, that I can honestly say that > I had my hands full just keeping myself hand-flying the plane to keep it > upright while feeling the leans in a big way. Having that experience was > pretty humbling. > I do understand that it's something that can be overcome, but, does the > *average* IFR pilot fly enough approaches to realistically keep their > proficiency to what is *really* required for safety? (Not the standard legal > definition of currency) > > Also, it wouldn't be responsible of me to tell someone that there's such a > thing as "light" IFR where you just go busting through thin layers and then > continue on top. You truly can get yourself into some situations that way. > > I catch your comment about if you were in the North East or California's > coastal fog, but in almost all areas of the country you can find some tough > IFR flying, and the question is are you planning to take your plane all over > the country and just fly VFR when you get some soggy clouds in your way? > > >> Now, all of this is up for grabs if you really want to fly to 200' >> mins on the rare occasion but reasonable risk management on the ground >> prior to take-off makes even the most basic equipment more than >> adequate "most" of the time. >> >> Bottom line is that you can have a nice economical IFR panel that will >> work well with nominal flight management or a really high dollar >> system that will take you to mins with your hands off. Knowing which >> you will be comfortable with should be the first part of the planning >> process. In some cases, we just can't afford the stuff we would like >> to have and fly with less but manage the risk better. Your call, but >> knowing what you really want to do "most" of the time is important. >> The other question you have to ask is "if I buy this fancy system, >> will I (the pilot) be ready to take it to mins when the time comes." >> > > All good points. I do agree that financial things do play a part in the > decision process. For me, I would probably be more of an IFR avoider with > the family on board without the gear, yet I feel that experience is > experience, and the only way to actually GET the experience is to DO the > flight, if Convection, hail, ice, and lightning, and turbulence aren't > involved. Personally, knowing that not everyone can afford exactly what > they want, I would encourage people to do whatever they can from a > proficiency and personal-minimums standpoint to minimize their risk. > Proficiency is expensive though too, as it costs $50/hr just for the fuel to > keep proficient. > > Also, I agree with your sentiments about will the pilot be ready, if they > are used to flying the fancy system. Having that fancy system also requires > you to stay proficient at it's operation...the same as any GPS/NAV/COM of > course. I worried about how it would be if not only the EFIS failed, but > what if I had to hand-fly with or without the EFIS. So far I haven't felt > like I will have a problem keeping hand-flying proficient, although it's > tough to fly as good as the computer these days. It pays to try to stay > current in all regards. There again, the pilots best friend in an emergency > is his autopilot...if it's still working. > >> If you plan on serious IFR and need that kind of panel for really hard >> IFR, then don't forget that heated pitot and static ports and fuel >> vents are things to consider just like wing and prop de-ice. All nice >> but more complexity and more dollars. HOWEVER if you fly IFR at all, >> you just gotta have a Garmin 396/496 with weather! It's the real >> minimum IFR equipment in my mind. > > Also great points. You're absolutely right about the Wx. It's one of those > things that I don't know what I'd do without. Attached is a WSI screenshot > from Saturday. It was very helpful knowing exactly which direction held the > large cells, and how thick the line was. > It was a VFR flight, which is much more comfortable when you have any red > spots in your area. The visual picture said go, but only when diverting > from the direct route. > > FWIW, I actually had the offer of wing de-ice, but decided to pass on that > one in favor of avoiding ice altogether. But since I passed, a good buddy > o'pal of mine will now get the honors of having the first de-ice'd RV-10 out > there. Yep, it's coming available down the road. > > Add my .02 to everyone's .02, and pretty soon we'll be millionaires! > > Just read Deems's post. Totally wonderful information there as well. > I especially agree with #4. While I know some of the limitations of some of > the other systems, I don't know all of the exact positive features, so I > speak mainly to my own knowledge base of the Chelton. > Many of the others got scratched off the list as I went along when I found > something that was a deal-breaker to me...but that doesn't mean that it's > not something that fits your goals. I love talking about the capabilities > of what I have. Unlike when you talk about the RV-10 and have to admit that > the doors suck, when I talk EFIS I really have very little to complain > about, and that's after getting married to it and having the honeymoon pass. > > Tim > >> Pick the mission, then pick the panel. >> >> Just my .02 >> >> Bill S >> 7a Ark >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson >> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:11 PM >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was >> GNS-430W >> >> >> This list cracks me up sometimes. ;) >> >> I have to say, to me, a real geek, and a pilot who looks at that grey >> thick wet layer of clouds as a perfect day to go for a pleasure flight >> and build some experience, the panel is my favorite part of the plane. >> It's not a status thing, or an ego thing, but a genuine interest in >> actually taking a creation I made, and have it do flights with ease >> that were painful to me only 2,3, or 5 years ago. There is no >> comparison to the old equipment when you l >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:15 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Not a surprise that I wouldn't be given a personal invite given my past com ments on Doug's operation. I'm just not big on having my posts edited and then posted with no comment that it was edited. But hey, it's putting his kids through college (and his kids kids, and the kids down the street, and their kids, etc). I just have a thing about business being run under false pretences, but that's just me. Oh ya, and you're jaded. :-) Do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:09 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Okay, call me jaded but I just received an invitation to migrate over to th e RV-10 web reflector offered by Doug Reeves. Question #1 - Now, am I the only one? Question #2, is it correct that this list has become a private conversation between Saint Aviation and individuals who cannot take private conversatio ns private? Cause I am not on any list for Rosen Visors or Saint Aviation business endevours nor see value in the build for knowing who they all are. Tim, is that how you handled the axle extension offer? At one time this was a sharing forum for diverse builders with common inter ests. John Cox #40600 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Cal Hoffman Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:56 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Count me in - I am at the right point to install. Cal Hoffman 97 Myrick Street Barnwell, SC 29812 803-541-5242 cehoffman@bellsouth.net I would like a full set of visors. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jesse Saint Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:32 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e-mail an d let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus shipping or a half se t for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail the desired shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an invoice that you can send in with a che ck after I figure out the shipping charges. I should be able to do a flat- rate USPS box or something like that. I do accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so I would need the fee added to the amount you send. GOD BLESS! Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:54 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Gas leak From: "orchidman" flysrv10(at)gmail.com wrote: > You did not ask for a fix but I will tell you in case you did not know. Use Loctite 290. It works wonders. I had the same issue with my QB wings. I am looking for a source of this product. Can someone direct me to a supplier? -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 (N410GB reserved) do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114486#114486 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:42 PM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: FS: MT Prop Gov It would be nice if you listed the MT governor part number. That way the correct engine usage could be determined. Perhaps from my MT Propeller Governor page on my website, _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) Regards, Jim Ayers Less Drag Products, Inc. 805-795-5377 In a message dated 05/23/2007 7:41:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, neal.george@mchsi.com writes: Listers - I have a new MT prop governor for sale. $1075, shipped. Neal E. George 2023 Everglades Drive Navarre, FL 32566 Home - 850-515-0640 Cell - 850-218-4838 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:28 PM PST US From: Sean Stephens Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy Smells like the same *bull* (pardon the english) from the ole Yahoo! days. -Sean (#40303 still waiting to start again) On May 23, 2007, at 10:34 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > Not a surprise that I wouldn=92t be given a personal invite given my > past comments on Doug=92s operation. I=92m just not big on having my > posts edited and then posted with no comment that it was edited. > But hey, it=92s putting his kids through college (and his kids kids, > and the kids down the street, and their kids, etc). I just have a > thing about business being run under false pretences, but that=92s > just me. > > > Oh ya, and you=92re jaded. :-) > > > Do not archive > > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:09 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy > > > Okay, call me jaded but I just received an invitation to migrate > over to the RV-10 web reflector offered by Doug Reeves. Question > #1 ' Now, am I the only one? > > > Question #2, is it correct that this list has become a private > conversation between Saint Aviation and individuals who cannot take > private conversations private? Cause I am not on any list for > Rosen Visors or Saint Aviation business endevours nor see value in > the build for knowing who they all are. Tim, is that how you > handled the axle extension offer? > > > At one time this was a sharing forum for diverse builders with > common interests. > > > John Cox #40600 > > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cal Hoffman > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:56 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy > > > Count me in - I am at the right point to install. > > > Cal Hoffman > > 97 Myrick Street > > Barnwell, SC 29812 > > 803-541-5242 > > cehoffman@bellsouth.net > > I would like a full set of visors. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jesse Saint > > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:32 PM > > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rosen Sun Visor Group Buy > > > I have you on my list for the Rosen Visors. Please reply to this e- > mail and let me know if you want a full set for $317.97 plus > shipping or a half set for $168.99. Please include on your e-mail > the desired shipping address and phone number. I will e-mail an > invoice that you can send in with a check after I figure out the > shipping charges. I should be able to do a flat-rate USPS box or > something like that. I do accept paypal, but they charge a fee, so > I would need the fee added to the amount you send. > > > GOD BLESS! > > > Jesse Saint > > Saint Aviation, Inc. > > jesse@saintaviation.com > > www.saintaviation.com > > Cell: 352-427-0285 > > Fax: 815-377-3694 > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://forums.matronics.com > > > y List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, > http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; http:// > forums.matronics.com > List > ======================== > ======================== > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.