Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:01 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Dave Leikam)
2. 05:56 AM - Re: Runaway trim (William Curtis)
3. 06:09 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Jesse Saint)
4. 07:29 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Vernon Smith)
5. 07:29 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Rob Hunter)
6. 08:27 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Jesse Saint)
7. 08:57 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Chris Johnston)
8. 09:52 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Bobby J. Hughes)
9. 10:10 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Ed Mueller)
10. 10:14 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Tim Olson)
11. 10:16 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Dave Saylor)
12. 10:28 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Vern W. Smith)
13. 11:08 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Chris Johnston)
14. 11:29 AM - Re: Runaway trim (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
15. 11:30 AM - Re: Runaway trim (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
16. 12:31 PM - Re: Runaway trim (Scott Schmidt)
17. 02:52 PM - Windshield Installation (Cal Hoffman)
18. 03:36 PM - WTB: Van's stock -10 instrument panel (F-1003A) (rv10builder)
19. 06:02 PM - Re: Beware PTI paint from Aircraft Spruce (Dan Masys)
20. 08:14 PM - Re: Runaway trim (kilopapa@antelecom.net)
21. 08:16 PM - Re: WTB: Van's stock -10 instrument panel (F-1003A) (William Curtis)
22. 08:34 PM - Re: Runaway trim (Voodoo) (Robin Marks)
23. 09:03 PM - Mixture arm problem (Kevin Belue)
24. 09:13 PM - Re: WTB: Van's stock -10 instrument panel (F-1003A) (Dave Saylor)
25. 09:26 PM - Re: Mixture arm problem (Deems Davis)
26. 09:28 PM - Re: Mixture arm problem (Rene Felker)
27. 11:07 PM - Ray Allen Aileron trim servo (Michael Wellenzohn)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Runaway trim |
You don't have to twist my arm Tim!!!!!
I have been pretty busy as of late, but maybe around OSH time?
Thanks for the offer.
Dave Leikam
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Runaway trim
>
> Absolutely, 100%, if something has the power to control your plane,
> put it on a pullable or switchable breaker. Flaps, Trim, AP, and
> things like that all deserve a pullable breaker or breaker/switch.
> Additionally, it's nice to have breakers that are pullable on
> many of your avionics so you can power them off separately
> from other things if needed. Save the fuses for the simple
> things, like lights, fans, Wx systems, and all the added goodies.
>
> I assure you, after flying for 225+ hours, a runaway trim event
> in the RV-10 would have a high chance of doing something more
> significant than just getting your attention....it would be
> quite an event. Just gave a demo again Monday, and it's one
> of the things I like to point out on the demo flights...what
> a 1 second trim hold can do at 125+ kts. I haven't tried
> more than a couple seconds, but I'm guessing you *may* be able
> to pull the wings off the airplane with a significant (maybe 3
> or 4 seconds), amount of runaway trim, if you were in cruise
> and didn't catch it right away.
>
> Dave, you're close enough, I've been meaning to get over
> by you or have you come this way so you can get a ride.
> I think you'd enjoy it.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Dave Leikam wrote:
>> A few days ago a Citation jet carrying a crew of two and 4 medical
>> personnel including organ transplant doctors, went down in Lake Michigan
>> just off shore from Milwaukee, WI shortly after takeoff. The pilot
>> declared an emergency due to severe control problems and was cleared to
>> return to MKE. No survivors. First my condolences to the families and
>> friends. Next, preliminary reports are that the crash may have been due
>> to "Runaway trim." Our RV-10s have electric trim. Should we or has
>> anyone installed a trim power disconnect of some sort? I realize that
>> the forces to overcome full trim on the 10 are not as great as a
>> Citation, but would this be prudent? After Attending Bob Nuckolls
>> seminar and hearing his reasons for not installing circuit breakers which
>> I generally agree with, would this be a reason for a pullable breaker on
>> this circuit? What do you guys and gals think? Mr. Nuckolls, how about
>> your thoughts?
>> Dave Leikam
>> 40496 RV-10
>> QB Wings
>>
>
>
>
Message 2
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There are only a few pull-able breakers on my panel, the rest of the devices are
protected by fuses. The only pull-able breakers are the alternator, alternator
field, flaps, autopilot and the pitch trim.
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/91Panel/index.html
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
-------- Original Message --------
> X-SmarterMail-Spam: BAYESIAN FILTERING
> X-Rcpt-To: <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>
> A few days ago a Citation jet carrying a crew of two and 4 medical personnel
including organ transplant doctors, went down in Lake Michigan just off shore
from Milwaukee, WI shortly after takeoff. The pilot declared an emergency due
to severe control problems and was cleared to return to MKE. No survivors.
First my condolences to the families and friends. Next, preliminary reports are
that the crash may have been due to "Runaway trim." Our RV-10s have electric
trim. Should we or has anyone installed a trim power disconnect of some sort?
I realize that the forces to overcome full trim on the 10 are not as great
as a Citation, but would this be prudent? After Attending Bob Nuckolls seminar
and hearing his reasons for not installing circuit breakers which I generally
agree with, would this be a reason for a pullable breaker on this circuit?
What do you guys and gals think? Mr. Nuckolls, how about your thoughts?
>
> Dave Leikam
> 40496 RV-10
> QB Wings
Message 3
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I have heard 2 stories of how the -10 was inadvertently trimmed nose-up
while the auto-pilot was engaged. The a-p held until it couldn't hold
anymore and then let go, putting the plane in an unusual attitude VERY
quickly. The first one had the original servo and the second was with a
high-torque servo, which was more dramatic. If the first pilot hadn't
mentioned his experience to the second pilot, he said he probably would have
wet his pants, if not more. I put just about everything on a pullable
breaker. Lights and fans and stuff like that, as Tim mentioned, can be on
fuses, but having everything on breakers so you can shed load manually if
you have an alternator failure, which DOES happen, is a good idea. Breakers
cost about $16 each for the good Klixon ones, so 20 of them is going to cost
just over $300, but probably less than $300 more than you would spend on the
alternative. Just being able to shed loads when you are working on settings
with the plane off is well worth it, IMHO.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that if the trim gets into a situation
like I mentioned above, pulling a breaker will NOT solve the problem, but
will rather make it worse, because with no power you will not be able to get
it back in trim. If your trim system goes bad, gets a short, has a bad
switch or something like that so it starts trimming by itself, then you need
to be able to get rid of the power. I also know of a case where a trim
relay board went bad in one direction, so the plane was trimmed too far one
way and they the pilot couldn't get it back. The trip was only about 30
minutes, but he said his arm was absolutely exhausted by the time he got
there. The -10 has a LOT of trim and is a big plane to pull against the
trim on.
A word to the wise - when flying on a-p, disengage from time to time to trim
the plane, even if you have the trim-sensing servo (which is fantastic, by
the way) and especially if you have aileron and/or rudder trim. Having the
plane trimmed right when you disengage for whatever reason, especially if it
is on an IFR approach, is very important.
In short, you do want a way to kill the trim power quickly if you have
"runaway trim", but if you may have been pushing it accidentally, then
cutting the power will make the problem worse. My suggestion in any case,
cut the power and then assess the situation to see if it was you or some
plane problem.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 1:01 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Runaway trim
A few days ago a Citation jet carrying a crew of two and 4 medical personnel
including organ transplant doctors, went down in Lake Michigan just off
shore from Milwaukee, WI shortly after takeoff. The pilot declared an
emergency due to severe control problems and was cleared to return to MKE.
No survivors. First my condolences to the families and friends. Next,
preliminary reports are that the crash may have been due to "Runaway trim."
Our RV-10s have electric trim. Should we or has anyone installed a trim
power disconnect of some sort? I realize that the forces to overcome full
trim on the 10 are not as great as a Citation, but would this be prudent?
After Attending Bob Nuckolls seminar and hearing his reasons for not
installing circuit breakers which I generally agree with, would this be a
reason for a pullable breaker on this circuit? What do you guys and gals
think? Mr. Nuckolls, how about your thoughts?
Dave Leikam
40496 RV-10
QB Wings
Message 4
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Any idea what caused the trim run away in the RV10s? Was it accidental act
ivation of stick mounted swtiches or some other problem?
On a side note, are people with Dynons using the Van's supplied trim and fl
ap indicators or the Dynon option?
Vern Smith (#324 fuselage)
do not archive
From: jesse@saintaviation.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-L
ist: Runaway trimDate: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 09:09:29 -0400
I have heard 2 stories of how the -10 was inadvertently trimmed nose-up whi
le the auto-pilot was engaged. The a-p held until it couldn=92t hold anymo
re and then let go, putting the plane in an unusual attitude VERY quickly.
The first one had the original servo and the second was with a high-torque
servo, which was more dramatic. If the first pilot hadn=92t mentioned his
experience to the second pilot, he said he probably would have wet his pan
ts, if not more. I put just about everything on a pullable breaker. Light
s and fans and stuff like that, as Tim mentioned, can be on fuses, but havi
ng everything on breakers so you can shed load manually if you have an alte
rnator failure, which DOES happen, is a good idea. Breakers cost about $16
each for the good Klixon ones, so 20 of them is going to cost just over $3
00, but probably less than $300 more than you would spend on the alternativ
e. Just being able to shed loads when you are working on settings with the
plane off is well worth it, IMHO.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 5
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I usually lurk, but you guys finally hit a chord.
I think having a way to disconnect the A/P and electric pitch trim is
very important. Back in the mid sixties my dad was killed in a electric
trim runaway incident in a Lockheed Learstar. The trim went to full
nose down on climb out and the airplane pitched down into the runway
killing all aboard. The circuit breakers were located under the pilot
seat. Imagine trying to get to them during a runaway trim event.
Years later I had a A/P runaway on a C-402. The autopilot disconnect
switches did not stop it. The circuit breaker had to be pulled.
Needles to say I have been able to pull any circuit breaker involving
pitch trim or A/P blindfolded.
The airplane I fly now has the hydraulic disconnect for the pitch trim
in a very convenient place easily accessible by either pilot.
Rob Hunter
Wings
40432
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
I have heard 2 stories of how the -10 was inadvertently trimmed nose-up
while the auto-pilot was engaged. The a-p held until it couldn't hold
anymore and then let go, putting the plane in an unusual attitude VERY
quickly. The first one had the original servo and the second was with a
high-torque servo, which was more dramatic. If the first pilot hadn't
mentioned his experience to the second pilot, he said he probably would
have wet his pants, if not more. I put just about everything on a
pullable breaker. Lights and fans and stuff like that, as Tim
mentioned, can be on fuses, but having everything on breakers so you can
shed load manually if you have an alternator failure, which DOES happen,
is a good idea. Breakers cost about $16 each for the good Klixon ones,
so 20 of them is going to cost just over $300, but probably less than
$300 more than you would spend on the alternative. Just being able to
shed loads when you are working on settings with the plane off is well
worth it, IMHO.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that if the trim gets into a
situation like I mentioned above, pulling a breaker will NOT solve the
problem, but will rather make it worse, because with no power you will
not be able to get it back in trim. If your trim system goes bad, gets
a short, has a bad switch or something like that so it starts trimming
by itself, then you need to be able to get rid of the power. I also
know of a case where a trim relay board went bad in one direction, so
the plane was trimmed too far one way and they the pilot couldn't get it
back. The trip was only about 30 minutes, but he said his arm was
absolutely exhausted by the time he got there. The -10 has a LOT of
trim and is a big plane to pull against the trim on.
A word to the wise - when flying on a-p, disengage from time to time to
trim the plane, even if you have the trim-sensing servo (which is
fantastic, by the way) and especially if you have aileron and/or rudder
trim. Having the plane trimmed right when you disengage for whatever
reason, especially if it is on an IFR approach, is very important.
In short, you do want a way to kill the trim power quickly if you have
"runaway trim", but if you may have been pushing it accidentally, then
cutting the power will make the problem worse. My suggestion in any
case, cut the power and then assess the situation to see if it was you
or some plane problem.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 1:01 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Runaway trim
A few days ago a Citation jet carrying a crew of two and 4 medical
personnel including organ transplant doctors, went down in Lake Michigan
just off shore from Milwaukee, WI shortly after takeoff. The pilot
declared an emergency due to severe control problems and was cleared to
return to MKE. No survivors. First my condolences to the families and
friends. Next, preliminary reports are that the crash may have been due
to "Runaway trim." Our RV-10s have electric trim. Should we or has
anyone installed a trim power disconnect of some sort? I realize that
the forces to overcome full trim on the 10 are not as great as a
Citation, but would this be prudent? After Attending Bob Nuckolls
seminar and hearing his reasons for not installing circuit breakers
which I generally agree with, would this be a reason for a pullable
breaker on this circuit? What do you guys and gals think? Mr.
Nuckolls, how about your thoughts?
Dave Leikam
40496 RV-10
QB Wings
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 6
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One was looking at an atlas and had it resting on the top of the stick,
pushing the trim. The other was filling in some flight log info. Watch out
for this with trim on the stick. I wouldn't even consider taking the trims
off the stick, but that will only happen 1 time before you realize the
importance of being careful not to hit that switch accidentally.
All I have seen are using the Van's indicator for the Trim and I haven't
seen anybody use a flap indicator. I don't think Dynon even had an
indication option until quite recently. The first time I saw it on a
display was a Sun-N-Fun.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:27 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
Any idea what caused the trim run away in the RV10s? Was it accidental
activation of stick mounted swtiches or some other problem?
On a side note, are people with Dynons using the Van's supplied trim and
flap indicators or the Dynon option?
Vern Smith (#324 fuselage)
do not archive
_____
From: jesse@saintaviation.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
I have heard 2 stories of how the -10 was inadvertently trimmed nose-up
while the auto-pilot was engaged. The a-p held until it couldn't hold
anymore and then let go, putting the plane in an unusual attitude VERY
quickly. The first one had the original servo and the second was with a
high-torque servo, which was more dramatic. If the first pilot hadn't
mentioned his experience to the second pilot, he said he probably would have
wet his pants, if not more. I put just about everything on a pullable
breaker. Lights and fans and stuff like that, as Tim mentioned, can be on
fuses, but having everything on breakers so you can shed load manually if
you have an alternator failure, which DOES happen, is a good idea. Breakers
cost about $16 each for the good Klixon ones, so 20 of them is going to cost
just over $300, but probably less than $300 more than you would spend on the
alternative. Just being able to shed loads when you are working on settings
with the plane off is well worth it, IMHO.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com/>
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check
<http://mobile.msn.com> out the New MSN Mobile
Message 7
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About this trim stuff - I was reading some flying mag awhile back, and
there's some new airplane out there that has a momentary switch in the
pinky position that you must be holding to actuate the coolie hat for
trim. I was thinking seriously about copying that. The only downside I
can see is the loss of a switch position on the stick, and the very
slight added complexity inline in an important system (very slightly
increasing the possibility of failure - ie one more thing possible to
fail, but highly unlikely). What say you all? I think it'd become
automatic after a couple flights - hold the pinky button down, and
actuate the coolie hat for trim. Then you've done away with all the
accidental bumping, chart nudges and the like, and it also has the added
bonus of being sort of child-proof! Although I'd still go with Tim's
recommendation of having the trim function be switch-off-able on the
co-pilot side. What say you all?
cj
#40410
fuse/finishing/stuff
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 8:26 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
One was looking at an atlas and had it resting on the top of the stick,
pushing the trim. The other was filling in some flight log info. Watch
out for this with trim on the stick. I wouldn't even consider taking
the trims off the stick, but that will only happen 1 time before you
realize the importance of being careful not to hit that switch
accidentally.
All I have seen are using the Van's indicator for the Trim and I haven't
seen anybody use a flap indicator. I don't think Dynon even had an
indication option until quite recently. The first time I saw it on a
display was a Sun-N-Fun.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:27 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
Any idea what caused the trim run away in the RV10s? Was it accidental
activation of stick mounted swtiches or some other problem?
On a side note, are people with Dynons using the Van's supplied trim and
flap indicators or the Dynon option?
Vern Smith (#324 fuselage)
do not archive
________________________________
From: jesse@saintaviation.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
I have heard 2 stories of how the -10 was inadvertently trimmed nose-up
while the auto-pilot was engaged. The a-p held until it couldn't hold
anymore and then let go, putting the plane in an unusual attitude VERY
quickly. The first one had the original servo and the second was with a
high-torque servo, which was more dramatic. If the first pilot hadn't
mentioned his experience to the second pilot, he said he probably would
have wet his pants, if not more. I put just about everything on a
pullable breaker. Lights and fans and stuff like that, as Tim
mentioned, can be on fuses, but having everything on breakers so you can
shed load manually if you have an alternator failure, which DOES happen,
is a good idea. Breakers cost about $16 each for the good Klixon ones,
so 20 of them is going to cost just over $300, but probably less than
$300 more than you would spend on the alternative. Just being able to
shed loads when you are working on settings with the plane off is well
worth it, IMHO.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com/>
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
________________________________
Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out
the New MSN Mobile <http://mobile.msn.com>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
Message 8
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Would a circuit like this be useful? Any downside?
Bobby
40116
________________________________
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Runaway trim |
Jesse (and others),
I've done that more then once (hit he trim with an atlas) in my Beech
Duchess. The A/P was set up to disengage when the trim activated. You
knew at once something had happened. Down side was flying an approach
IFR. If I had the heading engaged and was managing vertical descent
manually, I couldn't use the trim without having the A/P shut off.
Can't have everything I guess.
Ed Mueller
RV10 #525
On Jun 7, 2007, at 11:26 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> One was looking at an atlas and had it resting on the top of the
> stick, pushing the trim. The other was filling in some flight log
> info. Watch out for this with trim on the stick. I wouldnt even
> consider taking the trims off the stick, but that will only happen 1
> time before you realize the importance of being careful not to hit
> that switch accidentally.
>
> All I have seen are using the Vans indicator for the Trim and I
> havent seen anybody use a flap indicator. I dont think Dynon even
> had an indication option until quite recently. The first time I saw
> it on a display was a Sun-N-Fun.
>
> Do not archive
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> www.saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon
> Smith
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:27 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
>
>
>
> Any idea what caused the trim run away in the RV10s? Was it
> accidental activation ofstick mounted swtiches or some other problem?
>
> On a side note, are people with Dynons using theVan's supplied trim
> and flap indicators or the Dynon option?
>
> Vern Smith (#324 fuselage)
>
> do not archive
>
>
> From: jesse@saintaviation.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
> Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 09:09:29 -0400
> I have heard 2 stories of how the -10 was inadvertently trimmed
> nose-up while the auto-pilot was engaged. The a-p held until it
> couldnt hold anymore and then let go, putting the plane in an unusual
> attitude VERY quickly. The first one had the original servo and the
> second was with a high-torque servo, which was more dramatic. If the
> first pilot hadnt mentioned his experience to the second pilot, he
> said he probably would have wet his pants, if not more. I put just
> about everything on a pullable breaker. Lights and fans and stuff
> like that, as Tim mentioned, can be on fuses, but having everything on
> breakers so you can shed load manually if you have an alternator
> failure, which DOES happen, is a good idea. Breakers cost about $16
> each for the good Klixon ones, so 20 of them is going to cost just
> over $300, but probably less than $300 more than you would spend on
> the alternative. Just being able to shed loads when you are working
> on settings with the plane off is well worth it, IMHO.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> www.saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
>
> Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out
> the New MSN Mobile
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Runaway trim |
I think it would add more confusion, because now you can
accidentally reverse the trim too. That's what the
trim switch goes up and down for, so it shouldn't be
needed. Chris's suggestion of 2 switches is a good
enough one for the worry-worts, but if you protect your
wires from chafing and you don't include any funky
microprocessor type stuff in the trim, there shouldn't
be an extreme amount of worry to be had. You still have
to be ready for the possibility, but the standard
system is very simple. As far as dual-switching goes,
you could just as easily add a panel switch to disable
trim so you have active:
pilot only
co-pilot + pilot
no trim
Then in cruise you could disable the trim once you're
set in cruise. But, the problem with this is, when
you NEED the trim, you may find you forgot to activate
it...not good. Now you're more at risk of inadvertently
losing the ability to trim. So I'm just for keeping it
very simple and sticking with the norm....or if someone
invented a dual stick switch, great.
Additionally, for trim speed devices, I'm not a fan of
microprocessor type systems. I think that 3-way airspeed
type switch option is best....fast, or slow, depending on
airspeed. At least then the worst that could happen is that
you have fast or slow trim when you don't want it. The
fast trim would be full 12V power, the slow would be nice
to have as a pulsed DC system. As long as it's just the
power feed coming in, you shouldn't have to worry about
anything actually throwing your trim suddenly out of whack.
Tim
Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
> Would a circuit like this be useful? Any downside?
>
> Bobby
> 40116
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message 11
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I've flown in at least two planes when the elevator trim switch was
sticking. One was on my old GlaStar with an Infinity grip, the other was on
a Ray Allen grip with the four buttons for u/d/l/r. In the case of the Ray
Allen grip, the button would get caught under the housing of the grip. They
replaced it free of charge.
There was a GlaStar fatality a few years ago that wasn't explained but
seemed to me like it might have been runaway trim. I tested how long it
would take and how dramatic it would be in my plane. It did take a long
time but once it started to accelerate nose down, the rate seemed to
increase exponentially. The RV-10 elevator trim, with the motor at full
speed, changes much faster than the GlaStar and more suddenly.
As a few have mentioned by the time you notice the problem, cutting power
probably won't help much. Recognizing the problem and recovering smoothly
is the solution. That's easy to say as I type here calmly, but hard to do
with the trees rushing up...
My 10 has a trim C/B switch next to the throttle, flap switch, and A/P
switch. I installed a speed reducer activated by having the flaps being
fully retracted. Another strategy I've seen is to use a momentary normally
open pinkie switch (MNOPS?) in the trim selector ground wire, so it takes
two commands to activate trim. It's a little clumsy but it would prevent
the "atlas on the trim swicth" scenario, or the case of a faulty main
switch, which is not unheard of.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com <http://www.aircraftersllc.com/>
40394, wiring, just recieved AF3400EE...sweet!
Message 12
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I like it! If I don't have a lap full of stuff I don't feel like I'm
really flying:) If a Ray Allen G207 or G307 grip (or comparable) was
used. The PTT could be moved to one of the positions on the top of the
stick and the momentary switch under the index fingerer could then be
used as the "trim safety switch."
Those planning on using the Advance Flight Systems EFIS have the
additional notification of the trim indicator popping up on the efis
display when the trim activated. Just have to watch for it and recognize
the implications of it appearing in flight.
Vern (#324)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 8:56 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
About this trim stuff - I was reading some flying mag awhile back, and
there's some new airplane out there that has a momentary switch in the
pinky position that you must be holding to actuate the coolie hat for
trim. I was thinking seriously about copying that. The only downside I
can see is the loss of a switch position on the stick, and the very
slight added complexity inline in an important system (very slightly
increasing the possibility of failure - ie one more thing possible to
fail, but highly unlikely). What say you all? I think it'd become
automatic after a couple flights - hold the pinky button down, and
actuate the coolie hat for trim. Then you've done away with all the
accidental bumping, chart nudges and the like, and it also has the added
bonus of being sort of child-proof! Although I'd still go with Tim's
recommendation of having the trim function be switch-off-able on the
co-pilot side. What say you all?
cj
#40410
fuse/finishing/stuff
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
Message 13
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Yea - I doubt that I'd use the "trigger" position for anything other
than PTT - I'd probably put the "trim safety switch" under the pinky or
somewhere else (in the case of an infinity grip).
cj
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
I like it! If I don't have a lap full of stuff I don't feel like I'm
really flying:) If a Ray Allen G207 or G307 grip (or comparable) was
used. The PTT could be moved to one of the positions on the top of the
stick and the momentary switch under the index fingerer could then be
used as the "trim safety switch."
Those planning on using the Advance Flight Systems EFIS have the
additional notification of the trim indicator popping up on the efis
display when the trim activated. Just have to watch for it and recognize
the implications of it appearing in flight.
Vern (#324)
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 8:56 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
About this trim stuff - I was reading some flying mag awhile back, and
there's some new airplane out there that has a momentary switch in the
pinky position that you must be holding to actuate the coolie hat for
trim. I was thinking seriously about copying that. The only downside I
can see is the loss of a switch position on the stick, and the very
slight added complexity inline in an important system (very slightly
increasing the possibility of failure - ie one more thing possible to
fail, but highly unlikely). What say you all? I think it'd become
automatic after a couple flights - hold the pinky button down, and
actuate the coolie hat for trim. Then you've done away with all the
accidental bumping, chart nudges and the like, and it also has the added
bonus of being sort of child-proof! Although I'd still go with Tim's
recommendation of having the trim function be switch-off-able on the
co-pilot side. What say you all?
cj
#40410
fuse/finishing/stuff
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Runaway trim |
Several times I've flown in the C 182 G1000 with pilots that try to over
power the AP once it's engaged...and I've had to throw the circuit breaker on the
AP as the automatic trim in motion got going--and in the 182 the auto trim
will run out before it stops when it's trying to correct the additional inputs
on
the AP. At least there is an audible command that tells you that the trim is
working against the inputs by the pilot. After resetting all was well, and
then you look over at the guy that supposed to be PIC and ask them what they
had in mind when they ham fisted the controls, setting off the automatic
trim...duh, was trying to make the plane turn faster than 1/2 standard rate...so
they
grabbed the horns and started yanking...it's not nice watching your nose
pitch up suddenly then fall below the horizon even faster as the auto trim is
rolling trying to correct the physical inputs.
There are three ways to disengage the trim and 7 ways to disengage the AP in
the new C 182's...I'd think that you'd want several disengage options in the
10 also...switches/fuse's/circuit breakers/bus panels...main and sub panels
depending upon your configuration. When the planes come out of the factory, they
have a castle knob on the AP circuit breaker which resides just in front to
left seat and it's located for a right handed pilot on the avionic's bus. If
you just reach out in the dark you can immediately feel that this breaker head
is different from all the others and can quickly pull it, if needed. Maybe
adding this cover on top of the circuit breakers maybe something to consider as
you install your set-ups.
Patrick
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 15
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Couple of other options. Aircraft Extras has a airspeed switch that can
be used to reduce trim speed at higher airspeeds thus reducing sensitivity.
You could also just use a switch to do the same thing. Another option wo
uld be to put the standard rocker switches on the panel for the co-pilot an
d a DPDT switch with an off position to select between them. In that case
you have the option of disabling one of them should it be a switch problem
and still have control.
F1-Rocketboy used to sell a trim control unit that would do things like d
isable the copilot controls if the pilot was running trim and I believe als
o watch for runaway trim. For some reason he doesn't have any reference to
his products on his site anymore. Not sure if he stopped selling it but s
ent him an email to find out.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Limbo
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim
I've flown in at least two planes when the elevator trim switch was stickin
g. One was on my old GlaStar with an Infinity grip, the other was on a Ray
Allen grip with the four buttons for u/d/l/r. In the case of the Ray Alle
n grip, the button would get caught under the housing of the grip. They re
placed it free of charge.
There was a GlaStar fatality a few years ago that wasn't explained but seem
ed to me like it might have been runaway trim. I tested how long it would
take and how dramatic it would be in my plane. It did take a long time but
once it started to accelerate nose down, the rate seemed to increase expon
entially. The RV-10 elevator trim, with the motor at full speed, changes m
uch faster than the GlaStar and more suddenly.
As a few have mentioned by the time you notice the problem, cutting power p
robably won't help much. Recognizing the problem and recovering smoothly i
s the solution. That's easy to say as I type here calmly, but hard to do w
ith the trees rushing up...
My 10 has a trim C/B switch next to the throttle, flap switch, and A/P swit
ch. I installed a speed reducer activated by having the flaps being fully
retracted. Another strategy I've seen is to use a momentary normally open
pinkie switch (MNOPS?) in the trim selector ground wire, so it takes two co
mmands to activate trim. It's a little clumsy but it would prevent the "at
las on the trim swicth" scenario, or the case of a faulty main switch, whic
h is not unheard of.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com<http://www.aircraftersllc.com/>
40394, wiring, just recieved AF3400EE...sweet!
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Runaway trim |
I've had my trim way out before which disengaged the autopilot, no big deal
just a little pitch up at 130 knots. I haven't had it disengage on pitch
down but again I wouldn't expect anything too bad. I don't know what would
happen if the trim was at full throw in either direction on landing but I
am guessing you can over-force it. At cruise speeds I'm pretty sure you co
uldn't over-power it but you could quickly slow down, the pitch down would
be the most dangerous. It probably would be a good idea to purchase a red
cover for the trim to easily identify it. =0A=0AI remember at Reno a few ye
ars ago when VooDoo of the P-51's was coming down right after the start and
all of a sudden pitched up hard and went almost straight up for a few thou
sand feet, everyone thought he had a Mayday but he actually lost his trim t
ab on the elevator. It actually blacked him out and he woke up going strai
ght up and was pinned to floor. Once the plane slowed, he was able to cont
rol it and landed with no issues. The next day he had a for sale sign on i
t. The pilot was an ex-motorcycle racer, can't remember his name right now
. =0A=0AI have a flap indicator on my plane. I have recently lost both my
flap indicator and the trim indicator lights though. I have traced all th
e wires back to the unit themselves and I will replace them. Kinda upset t
hey both blew on me. I love my flap indicator. I have it set so that the f
irst knotch moves it down one light bar. It makes it very easy to check fl
ap position at night especially.=0A =0AScott Schmidt=0Ascottmschmidt@yahoo.
com=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jesse Saint <jesse@saint
aviation.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, June 7, 2007
8:26:04 AM=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim=0A=0A=0AOne was looking a
t an atlas and had it resting on the top of the stick, pushing the trim. T
he other was filling in some flight log info. Watch out for this with trim
on the stick. I wouldn=A2t even consider taking the trims off the stick,
but that will only happen 1 time before you realize the importance of being
careful not to hit that switch accidentally.=0A =0AAll I have seen are usi
ng the Van=A2s indicator for the Trim and I haven=A2t seen anybody use a fl
ap indicator. I don=A2t think Dynon even had an indication option until qu
ite recently. The first time I saw it on a display was a Sun-N-Fun.=0A =0A
Do not archive=0A =0AJesse Saint=0ASaint Aviation, Inc.=0Ajesse@saintaviati
on.com=0Awww.saintaviation.com=0ACell: 352-427-0285=0AFax: 815-377-3694=0A
=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list
-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith=0ASent: Thursday, June 07,
2007 10:27 AM=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: Runa
way trim=0A =0A=0AAny idea what caused the trim run away in the RV10s? Was
it accidental activation of stick mounted swtiches or some other problem?
=0A =0AOn a side note, are people with Dynons using the Van's supplied trim
and flap indicators or the Dynon option?=0A =0AVern Smith (#324 fuselage)
=0A =0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: jesse@saintaviation.com=0ATo: rv10-l
ist@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: Runaway trim=0ADate: Thu, 7 Jun
2007 09:09:29 -0400=0AI have heard 2 stories of how the -10 was inadverten
tly trimmed nose-up while the auto-pilot was engaged. The a-p held until i
t couldn=A2t hold anymore and then let go, putting the plane in an unusual
attitude VERY quickly. The first one had the original servo and the second
was with a high-torque servo, which was more dramatic. If the first pilot
hadn=A2t mentioned his experience to the second pilot, he said he probably
would have wet his pants, if not more. I put just about everything on a p
ullable breaker. Lights and fans and stuff like that, as Tim mentioned, ca
n be on fuses, but having everything on breakers so you can shed load manua
lly if you have an alternator failure, which DOES happen, is a good idea.
Breakers cost about $16 each for the good Klixon ones, so 20 of them is goi
ng to cost just over $300, but probably less than $300 more than you would
spend on the alternative. Just being able to shed loads when you are worki
ng on settings with the plane off is
well worth it, IMHO.=0A =0AJesse Saint=0ASaint Aviation, Inc.=0Ajesse@sain
taviation.com=0Awww.saintaviation.com=0ACell: 352-427-0285=0AFax: 815-377-3
694=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0AHotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and mu
ch more! Check out the New MSN Mobile =0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp:/
/www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.c
===
Message 17
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| Subject: | Windshield Installation |
How much pressure are people using to make the windshield fit against
the right and left sides of the upper forward fuse top? My windshield
curve does not exactly match the curve and I am hesitant to trim more.
What is an allowable gap around the windshield bottom?
Cal (40119)
Ready for engine install
do not archive
Change the world one loan at a time - visit Kiva.org to find out how
Message 18
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| Subject: | WTB: Van's stock -10 instrument panel (F-1003A) |
Well....I started manually chopping up the stock panel and at this point
am not happy with the lack of precision :-( . Onto the CAD and jet
cutting. Any you folks out there with one of those snazzy after market
panels still have that F-1003A sitting on the shelf you would be willing
to part with at a fair price?
Contact me off list please...
rv10builder@bellsouth.net
Brian
#40308
Nashville, TN 37211
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Beware PTI paint from Aircraft Spruce |
That would be me :). And yes, Aircraft Spruce has been very accommodating in resolving
the problem, which wasn't so much delays as it was items being seemingly
randomly dropped from multiple line orders that included back-ordered items.
Kudos to Jim Irwin on heading up a fine organization.
This was a bit of a diversion from a momentous event this week: after turning page
after page of Van's instructions for building an RV-10 for the past 22 months,
I turned the last page and there were no more pages. The construction on
this puppy is done! Now on to paint, with a nonzero chance this thing will actually
make it to the OSH homebuilt camping area this July!
-Dan Masys
#40448 N104LD
> Time: 04:01:14 PM PST US
> From: "Aircraft Spruce" <info@aircraftspruce.com>
> Subject: RV10-List: Beware PTI paint from Aircraft Spruce
>
> One of our longtime customers posted a complaint about a delay on an
> order for PTI paints from Aircraft Spruce, and we want to report that
> the situation has been resolved to our customer's satisfaction. There
> was some confusion on our part regarding a few of the PTI products that
> were backordered, but that has been corrected and all the PTI products
> are shipping directly from the factory to our customer. We have extended
> our apology to our customer and assured him that we value his business
> and look forward to continuing to serve him during the RV project.
>
> If anyone has a question or concern please do not hesitate to contact us
> and we will look into the matter immediately.
>
> Aircraft Spruce Customer Service
>
> custsvc@aircraftspruce.com
Message 20
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The pilot of VooDoo was Bob Hannah.
http://www.bobhannah.com/
Kevin
<snip>
I remember at Reno a few years ago when VooDoo of the P-51's
was coming down right after the start and all of a sudden
pitched up hard and went almost straight up for a few
thousand feet, everyone thought he had a Mayday but he
actually lost his trim tab on the elevator. It actually
blacked him out and he woke up going straight up and was
pinned to floor. Once the plane slowed, he was able to
control it and landed with no issues. The next day he had a
for sale sign on it. The pilot was an ex-motorcycle racer,
can't remember his name right now.
<snip>
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
Message 21
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| Subject: | WTB: Van's stock -10 instrument panel (F-1003A) |
If no one offers anything, just order and 2' X 4' sheet of 0.63 aluminum from Aicraft
Spruce and trace the old panel on to it to create a new one.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
-------- Original Message --------
> X-Rcpt-To: <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>
>
> Well....I started manually chopping up the stock panel and at this point
> am not happy with the lack of precision :-( . Onto the CAD and jet
> cutting. Any you folks out there with one of those snazzy after market
> panels still have that F-1003A sitting on the shelf you would be willing
> to part with at a fair price?
>
> Contact me off list please...
>
> rv10builder@bellsouth.net
>
> Brian
> #40308
> Nashville, TN 37211
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Runaway trim (Voodoo) |
Voodoo was just at a private BBQ I sponsor each year along with some
other "hardware." The fly bys are always the highlight regardless of the
vintage. Photos attached.
Robin
RV-6A 350 hours
RV-10 Decisions, decisions, decisions...head about to explode
Do Not Archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Mixture arm problem |
I have a Bendix servo on my IO540-C4B5 engine that has a straight
mixture lever. It's not working out very well because the airbox
interferes with it - even with the cutout. Does anyone know where I can
get an offset mixture arm like most seem to have? The unit has these
numbers:
Model: RSA-5AD1
Serial: 49426
Parts List: 4524213-11
My straight mixture arm has this number on it: 25220U4
I'd appreciate any help with this!
Kevin Belue
RV-6A >700 hrs
RV-10 finish work
Message 24
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| Subject: | WTB: Van's stock -10 instrument panel (F-1003A) |
F-1003A is $44, .063 sheet is $50+. Unless you need the extra material,
you might want to check stock at Van's (I should have located my own ELT
head a little better...). Do not archive
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
40394 Wiring, prop arrived today one week ahead of schedule.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Mixture arm problem |
Call Don Rivera @ Airflow Performance, I know they make offset levers
for their fuel controllers, He will be able to tell you if one of theirs
will fit the unit you've got.
Deems Davis # 406
Baffling / Plenum / Engine Stuff
http://deemsrv10.com/
> *
> *
Message 26
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| Subject: | Mixture arm problem |
I was able to get one from aerosport power. Vans recommended them to me.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
801-721-6080
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Belue
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 9:41 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Mixture arm problem
I have a Bendix servo on my IO540-C4B5 engine that has a straight mixture
lever. It's not working out very well because the airbox interferes with it
- even with the cutout. Does anyone know where I can get an offset mixture
arm like most seem to have? The unit has these numbers:
Model: RSA-5AD1
Serial: 49426
Parts List: 4524213-11
My straight mixture arm has this number on it: 25220U4
I'd appreciate any help with this!
Kevin Belue
RV-6A >700 hrs
RV-10 finish work
Message 27
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| Subject: | Ray Allen Aileron trim servo |
Quick question, what did you use to connect the Ray Allen aileron trim servo to
the cable which comes with the kit from Vans?
Since the cables are so thin crimping doesnt work (at least with the terminals
I have). Did you use a connector?
Please advise (pictures are welcome).
Regards
Michael
www.wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117234#117234
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