Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:02 AM - Re: OSH dates ? (Phillips, Jack)
2. 05:58 AM - Re: Remove QB tanks to test? (Jesse Saint)
3. 06:50 AM - Re: Fuel Leak (Indran Chelvanayagam)
4. 07:33 AM - Re: Fuel Leak (John Gonzalez)
5. 07:34 AM - WSI Weather on the cheap (Tim Olson)
6. 08:17 AM - Re: Fuel Leak ()
7. 10:55 AM - Re: Fuel Leak (William Curtis)
8. 11:36 AM - Primary Education ()
9. 11:36 AM - Re: Fuel Leak (Ronald L Owen)
10. 12:21 PM - Re: Que (John Hurst)
11. 12:24 PM - TruTrak ADI ()
12. 01:15 PM - Kudos to Aero Sport Power (Ted French)
13. 01:56 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (Todd Agold)
14. 02:02 PM - Tunnel Heat (Robin Marks)
15. 02:24 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (JSMcGrew@AOL.COM)
16. 02:32 PM - Re: Tunnel Heat (Deems Davis)
17. 02:35 PM - Re: Tunnel Heat (JSMcGrew@aol.com)
18. 02:56 PM - Re: Tunnel Heat (Tim Olson)
19. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: Tunnel Heat ()
20. 05:45 PM - Re: Tunnel Heat (Deems Davis)
21. 05:50 PM - Re: Tunnel Heat (Deems Davis)
22. 07:47 PM - Re: WSI Weather on the cheap (GenGrumpy@aol.com)
Message 1
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I'll be there Sunday to Saturday in my RV-4, parking in the Van's Air
Force area. I've got to take my wife up to Mackinac Island on
Wednesday, returning Thursday, otherwise we'll be at OSh the whole time.
Looking forward to meeting more RV-10 builders.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
#40610
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:19 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: OSH dates ?
We'll be arriving 25 Jul and departing Friday morning. Plan on parking
in the camping area.
Marcus
40286
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:35 PM
Subject: RV10-List: OSH dates ?
OK I need to make arrangements for OSH and would like to time my stay
(aprox 3 days) to coincide with as many of you as possible. Right now
I'm thinking about Tues 7/24, Wed, and Thurs 7/26. What's everybody
elses plans?
Tim is it time to re open the OSH attendance list on your site?
Deems Davis # 406
Baffling / Plenum / Engine Stuff. (I swear the fiberglass stuff never
ends!) http://deemsrv10.com/
_________________________________________________
Message 2
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| Subject: | Remove QB tanks to test? |
Dave,
You can test for leaks around the rivets and inboard rib without removing
the tanks from the wings, but you will miss the entire rear bulkhead and
outboard rib. It is a risk, but if you do the balloon test and test for air
bubbles around everywhere you can see, then wait to see if the balloon holds
air, then you may be OK. As Tim mentioned, it is best to do the balloon and
soap together, but if the balloon holds air for 24 hours (it may grow or
shrink a little with changing temperatures), then you should have a good
seal. Just make sure that you have a good seal around all of the fittings
that you "block off", because you could have a leak around one of those and
think the tank is bad when it is not bad.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 1:36 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Remove QB tanks to test?
Thanks for the soap responses everyone. Is it possible to do a good test
without removing the tanks from the wings? Mine are soooo nice and snug
right now. ???????
Thanks for letting me continually pick your brains.
Dave Leikam
40496
QB wing stuff
Message 3
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Sorry to correct this misunderstanding,
Water molecule = H2O (small)
Avgas= mixture of multiple different hydrocarbon molecules, all
larger than C4H10 (medium to large)
I'm no physicist, but my guess at the reason that Avgas leaks is
something to do with different surface tension of the two liquids. Or
possible the differing adherence to fuel tank surfaces.
Indran
>
> Water is a bigger molecule than avgas and while it may not leak
> avgas can.
Message 4
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CHEMISTRY AND ORGANIC CHEMISTRY TO BE MORE EXACT.
Do NoT ARCHIVE
>From: Indran Chelvanayagam <dc71@netspace.net.au>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
>Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:47:30 +0800
>
><dc71@netspace.net.au>
>
>Sorry to correct this misunderstanding,
>
>Water molecule = H2O (small)
>Avgas= mixture of multiple different hydrocarbon molecules, all larger
>than C4H10 (medium to large)
>
>I'm no physicist, but my guess at the reason that Avgas leaks is something
>to do with different surface tension of the two liquids. Or possible the
>differing adherence to fuel tank surfaces.
>
>Indran
>
>
>>
>>Water is a bigger molecule than avgas and while it may not leak avgas
>>can.
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | WSI Weather on the cheap |
Here's a big WSI weather tip for y'all....
If you are looking for WSI weather and are worried about the
pricing of the receivers that you'd have to buy with the Sirius
system, and you've been holding off buying the old receiver
because you don't want to toss away your cash, read on.
You can get WSI on your Chelton or other EFIS for a LOT less
money than the price of a new receiver, but you need to act
FAST, and I mean really fast.
Recently I was poking around used equipment sites just surfing
for "WSI, AV-100" and "WSI, AV-200", the experimental and certified
systems. There are many avionics dealers dumping those units
because they are perceived as useless since the sirius upgrade
will require new receivers.
But, I talked to WSI and verified that if you activate a receiver
and have an active plan....even if you don't have the receiver
mounted in the plane yet, you are fully eligible for the free
receiver upgrade and you will receive the above AV-300 receiver
for FREE. So if you're within a year of flying, there is a huge
possibility that this would be of benefit to you.
Just to give you an idea, I ran across one receiver for $695, and
one for $895. It just doesn't get any cheaper than that. (Make sure
to call the places, because the website price was $1595) The only
thing that I'm unsure of is if you get a free antenna upgrade as
well as the receiver, and the antennas on the new units are $659
List Price (actual dealer pricing may be lower), so you may end
up re-purchasing a new antenna at a later date. But, you would
save the $3000-3688 on the receiver.
Also, I just got a mailing that said we should verify our mailing
addresses by June 15th for the receiver swap, so I would assume
that if you plan to do this, you should act extremely fast and buy
and activate something right way. You don't have to actually
power it up and activate it, just activate your plan.
I thought some of you would find this tip useful. I know the
2 guys who got to get those cheap receivers are thrilled.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 6
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While water is a smaller molecule, hydrogen bonding between molecules forms clumps
of water, making water "wet", instead of dry like fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_bond#Hydrogen_bonds_in_water
mitch
---- Indran Chelvanayagam <dc71@netspace.net.au> wrote:
============
Sorry to correct this misunderstanding,
Water molecule = H2O (small)
Avgas= mixture of multiple different hydrocarbon molecules, all
larger than C4H10 (medium to large)
I'm no physicist, but my guess at the reason that Avgas leaks is
something to do with different surface tension of the two liquids. Or
possible the differing adherence to fuel tank surfaces.
Indran
>
> Water is a bigger molecule than avgas and while it may not leak
> avgas can.
--
Learn2fly www.chickashawings.com
Message 7
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And to further complicate matters, the simpler H2O molecule is heavier (more mass
at 8 pounds per gallon) than the more complex gasoline (C8H18) hydrocarbon
molecule at 6 pounds per gallon. As far as the physical size of one molecule
verses another, in the units we are talking about it really insignificant. Now
if I was building filters for biomedical of respiratory systems, that would
be another story. Another interesting thing about H2O is that it is one of the
rare compounds in nature that expands and gets lighter as it gets colder. Ice
takes up about 10% more volume than water. Most everything else shrinks and
gets heavier as they get colder.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
-------- Original Message --------
> X-Rcpt-To: <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>
>
> Sorry to correct this misunderstanding,
>
> Water molecule = H2O (small)
> Avgas= mixture of multiple different hydrocarbon molecules, all
> larger than C4H10 (medium to large)
>
> I'm no physicist, but my guess at the reason that Avgas leaks is
> something to do with different surface tension of the two liquids. Or
> possible the differing adherence to fuel tank surfaces.
>
> Indran
>
>
>
> >
> > Water is a bigger molecule than avgas and while it may not leak
> > avgas can.
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Primary Education |
"There is no doubt their panel is great, but it is not Primary which is
the root of the question. "
TDT: Gee, I must have been asleep when I was working on Entegra PFD and
MFD certification projects when I was at Avidyne . . .
"is careful to not call their ever popular EFIS a PFD but rather a MFD"
TDT: Well, if they are calling it an MFD, they are probably referring
to the MFD, not the PFD. The Avidyne Entegra system consists of two
distinctly separate boxes, the PFD and the MFD. Different hardware,
different OS, different software, same size screens. As mentioned
earlier, the MFD, due to software certification levels, is NOT a primary
instrument for engine indications, and is not a primary navigation
instrument, either, despite the pretty moving map. Check the
date/revision on that POH, too. Remember, there are at least three
different major TC versions of Cirrus cockpits:
a) Old-school pre-Avidyne with ARNAV MFD
b) Avidyne MFD only with 6-pack
c) Avidyne PFD & MFD with mechanical engine instruments
d) Avidyne PFD & MFD with no mechanical engine instruments
Do you think the FAA would allow the mechanical flight instruments to be
mounted low in the bolster if they were "primary?" That's the main
reason for the difference. All primary flight instruments have to be
within a designated field of view of the pilot's eyepoint.
TDT
40025
Message 9
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Message 10
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Ghost Rider
Blood and Chocolate
--------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Que
memory
rescue me s#3
highlander:search for vengeance
John Hurst <johnh38@yahoo.com> wrote:
The Messengers
----- Original Message ----
Subject: Re: Que
war stories
ssi: sexy squad invstigation
John Hurst <johnh38@yahoo.com> wrote:
Norbit
Little Brittan Series 2
Hustle Series 1
--------------------------
Subject: Re: Que
hawk is dying
private moments
resistance
John Hurst <johnh38@yahoo.com> wrote:
Little Brittan Series one
Subject: Re: Que
shadow walkers
mexican american
fay grim
constellation
foursome
dissapeared
Josh T <joshgator@yahoo.com> wrote:
the thirst
the italian
Josh T <joshgator@yahoo.com> wrote:
kyle xy S#1
diggers
John Hurst <johnh38@yahoo.com> wrote:
Epic Movie - UR
--------------------------------
apocalypto
arthur
venus
sin eater
mistress of spices
John Hurst <johnh38@yahoo.com> wrote:
Painted Veil
The Dead Girl
----- Original Message ----
From: John Hurst <johnh38@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:25:56 PM
Subject: Re: Que
Pan's Labyrinth 2 disc set
The Kovak Box
Stomp the Yard
Seraphim Falls
----- Original Message ----
From: Josh T <joshgator@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:40:49 PM
Subject: Re: Que
fur
secret life of words
jump in
because i said so
breaking and entering
tiger and the snow
Josh T <joshgator@yahoo.com> wrote:
illegal aliens
sleeping dogs lie
last supper
Josh T <joshgator@yahoo.com> wrote:
born to fight
John Hurst <johnh38@yahoo.com> wrote:
Alphadog
Dreamgirls
The Hitcher
----- Original Message ----
From: Josh T <joshgator@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 9:29:50 PM
Subject: Re: Que
little children
happily never after
the cleaner
flannel pajamas
45
the queen
10 items or less
lost tomb of jesus
caffeine
tsunami (2 discs)
slingshot
wilderness survival for girls
until death
marsh
rcmcmillanfsu@aol.com wrote:
Night at the Museum
Harry Potter 2
-----Original Message-----
From: joshgator@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Que
4/19
succubus
off the black
4/17
george and the dragon
freedom writers
blacktie nights (3 disc)
Notes on a Scandal
Looked at Ntnl. Lampoons: Pucked...tough, tough decision.
Sent: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:56 PM
the aura
doomed
life of the party
gamebox 1.0
bobby
aurora borealis
rcmcmillanfsu@aol.com wrote:
I'm finishing the babewatch seasons
-----Original Message-----
From: joshgator@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: Que
tried to clean up the list below some... picked up
entourage S#3
3 needles
copying beethoven
-----Original Message-----
From: joshgator@yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: Que
i think if we just keep replying to this same email we'll all know whats been picked
up (ie: sublime & candy & comeback season... are all in this email)
lost room (1&2)
king maker
unatural & accidental
attack of the gryphon
Charlotte's WebThe Good ShepherdMoney Power Respect
Tenacious D
Volver
Black X-mas UR
Sent: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:35 PM
happy feet
funny money
comeback season
candy
heart of the game
la casa loca
rcmcmillanfsu@aol.com wrote:
Rocky
First Born
Blood Diamond
Nativity
something about into the night???
Dukes of Hazard the Beginning
Sent: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 5:52 PM
everyones hero
eragon
lets go to prison
come early morning
american cousins
the hunt
pleasure drivers
the condor
Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 9:12 PM
fast food nation
color of the cross
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:42:41 AM
Wild Camp
Sublime
Ntnl. Lampoons Spring Break
Harsh Times
Don't pick lemons.
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Message 11
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BTW, I got a call from Michelle at TruTrak out of the blue that they are
preparing to start shipping 2 inch ADIs . . .
TDT
40025
Message 12
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| Subject: | Kudos to Aero Sport Power |
I have been flying my RV-10 since April 5th and I have just finished
flying the test period off. The plane is equipped with an I0-540-D4A5 engine
which I bought from Aero Sport. The engine didn't want to idle very well,
and it also had a rough right mag and an oil leak.
I am fortunate in that I live about 30 minuites flying time from Aero
Sport so I decided to take it over to them to see if they could help me out.
On the first trip, Ted ( chief mech ?)and Brian (one of the partners in
the business) spent about an hour and a half trouble shooting and adjusting
the mixture and idle for me. When they were done, it ran like a Swiss watch
and would idle happily at 500 RPM.
I went home, but found that the mag was still rough during the mag check.
I returned to Aero Sport yesterday and Brian spent another hour
troubleshooting, and had another of the mechanics pull the wiring off the
right mag. Course, I had messed up and one of the spring connectors was
folded over and was not allowing any spark to #1 bottom plug. They replaced
the rubber grommet and reassembled the harness and the mag checked out
perfectly.
During all this time they also chased my oil leak and I think it is fixed.
They refused to give me a bill. NO CHARGE. Folks, this is one classy
company to do business with. Both Sue and Bart came out to take a good look
at the 10. It's the first one in these parts to fly, so the don't see them
often.
A happy customer....
Do Not Archive
Ted French C-FXCS
RV-10 Flying
http://www3.telus.net/elfrench/RV-10_main.htm
Message 13
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I'm no MIT grad, but a 12 inch column of gasoline is about 0.31 psi. Applying more
pressure may actually cause problems. A gas is much harder to seal than a
liquid due to surface tension and the size of the molecule. I just finished
my tanks, but have not tested them yet. I plan on using the balloon/soapy water
test. It's cheap and effective. I just don't see the need for more complex
methods.
Todd #362
"RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
What if one of you smart MIT types *cough* figure out about how
much PSI a full tank of avgas exerts while compensating for the difference in
viscosity between air and avgas. Should give you a better number to use to approx
the PSI of air for testing the tanks. Hopefully it will lead to more accurate
leak tests.
Just a thought. :-)
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JSMcGrew@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 6:12 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
I know we just had this discussion about a leaky rivet on a fuel tank. I didn't
comment because I thought I was the lucky recipient of leak-free quickbuild
tanks. You'll notice from the attached photo that I was not. Seeing that did
not make me happy.
Last August I pressure tested my tanks using a pressure gauge from a blood
pressure cuff before installing them. I pumped them up to 35 mmHG (~ 0.67 psi)
and left them for 2-3 days. The pressure did not change so I figured they were
good. After filling them I checked for leaks and didn't see any. I've had fuel
in the tanks for 10 months and flown 85 hours. As I was washing the bugs off
my wing yesterday I found this leak. I'm glad I found it before painting.
I plan on emptying the fuel from the wing and trying the Locktite 290 approach,
unless someone has a better suggestion.
-Jim
40134
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew
---------------------------------
See what's free at AOL.com.
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
Message 14
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Dear List,
I have read & re-read the archives regarding the tunnel heat
issue and I am a bit confused. It seems some people have solved their
heat issue but there doesn't seem to be a consensus as to the proper way
to resolve it and that the "fix" is more like a series of small
corrections rather than just one modification.
From my reading of the archives that heat enters the tunnel
due to a number of reasons:
* Radiant heat from exhaust stack
* Radiant heat from small cowl opening
* Heat leaking in from poorly sealed heater boxes
* Lack of air flow thru tunnel allowing hot air to build
>From what I can tell the most common solutions are:
* Insulated false floor
* Pilots side firewall insulation
* Engine side insulation (stick on or spray on)
* Additional gill vents on the underside of the cowl
* Proper sealing of heater boxes
* Cool air venting of tunnel
Unfortunately my full fuel system is already in place and adding the
false floor would be a challenge at this point. I am considering placing
an OAT sensor in the tunnel to monitor the temps.
One last note: we are planning to use the SJ Cold Induction cowl and
plenum with our BPE Cold Induction IO-540.
Can I get a consensus (metaphysical impossibility on the RV-List) as to
the best way(s) to prevent this issue based on having my fuel system in
place and assuming we will to a top job of sealing the heater boxes?
Thanks in advance for your consideration.
Robin Marks
RV-4 Sold
RV-6A 350 Hours
RV-10 Parts, parts, parts N456RV Reserved
Message 15
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Yes, Todd, but that is at 1 G. Now what if you're pulling 3.8 Gs... it's 1.2
psi... never mind... it doesn't matter... You're right. Keep it simple.
-Jim
In a message dated 6/12/2007 4:58:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
t_agold@yahoo.com writes:
I'm no MIT grad, but a 12 inch column of gasoline is about 0.31 psi.
Applying more pressure may actually cause problems. A gas is much harder to seal
than a liquid due to surface tension and the size of the molecule. I just
finished my tanks, but have not tested them yet. I plan on using the
balloon/soapy water test. It's cheap and effective. I just don't see the need
for more
complex methods.
Todd #362
(http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew)
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 16
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Robin, I was similarly confused/worried by the reports/solutions
regarding tunnel heat. There are strong feeling about the source and the
solution/s. in the end I reasoned that the biggest heat producer was
forward of the firewall, and the best thing I could do was insulate the
firewall. I ended up putting a fiberfrax thermal barrier between the
original firewall and a 'faux' firewall that I placed on top of it. I
also put a fiberfrax insulation barrier between the heater control boxes
and the firewall's. There is a theory that some of the heat comes from
the exhaust. If you order the John Forsling exhaust with the
'turn-downs' to go with your BPE cold air, the exhaust is extended
further back.aft and away from the bottom of the fuse. here's links to
some pictures.
http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%2041%20Upper%20Fwd%20Fuse%20Install/slides/DSC03240.html
Click forward and back to see other pictures.
http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%20FF6%20Exhaust%20System/slides/DSC04747.html
I have the plenum and the James Cowl and I don't seen (and haven't made)
any changes relative to tunnel heat. There are several reports that
adding vents to the bottom of the cowl improves CHT cooling, but none
from anyone with the James cowl/plenum, I'm holding off until I fly to
determine if it's necessary.
Deems Davis # 406
Baffling / Plenum / Engine Stuff
http://deemsrv10.com/
Robin Marks wrote:
>
> Dear List,
>
> I have read & re-read the archives regarding the tunnel heat issue and
> I am a bit confused. It seems some people have solved their heat issue
> but there doesnt seem to be a consensus as to the proper way to
> resolve it and that the fix is more like a series of small
> corrections rather than just one modification.
>
> From my reading of the archives that heat enters the tunnel due to a
> number of reasons:
>
> Radiant heat from exhaust stack
>
> Radiant heat from small cowl opening
>
> Heat leaking in from poorly sealed heater boxes
>
> Lack of air flow thru tunnel allowing hot air to build
>
> From what I can tell the most common solutions are:
>
> Insulated false floor
>
> Pilots side firewall insulation
>
> Engine side insulation (stick on or spray on)
>
> Additional gill vents on the underside of the cowl
>
> Proper sealing of heater boxes
>
> Cool air venting of tunnel
>
> Unfortunately my full fuel system is already in place and adding the
> false floor would be a challenge at this point. I am considering
> placing an OAT sensor in the tunnel to monitor the temps.
>
> One last note: we are planning to use the SJ Cold Induction cowl and
> plenum with our BPE Cold Induction IO-540.
>
> Can I get a consensus (metaphysical impossibility on the RV-List) as
> to the best way(s) to prevent this issue based on having my fuel
> system in place and assuming we will to a top job of sealing the
> heater boxes?
>
> Thanks in advance for your consideration.
>
> Robin Marks
>
> RV-4 Sold
>
> RV-6A 350 Hours
>
> RV-10 Parts, parts, parts N456RV Reserved
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 17
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Robin,
I had the fuel system in before I heard anyone mention tunnel heat and I
wasn't about to go tearing things out. My suggestion is to wait and see if y
ou
have a problem with your particular set up before you start 'fixing' anythin
g.
You may have read my post about my tunnel heat solutions.
_http://forum.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=13430_
(http://forum.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=13430)
The small fiberglass trimming I did on the aft edge of the "reverse scoop"
under the belly made all the difference for me. Someday I may do some testin
g
to figure out exactly why that made such a change, but for now I'm happy th
at
tunnel heat is not a problem.
So, my vote is: Don't worry about it and keep building.
Good luck.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 6/12/2007 5:04:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
robin1@mrmoisture.com writes:
Dear List,
I have read & re-read the archives regarding the tunnel heat issue and I am
a bit confused. It seems some people have solved their heat issue but there
doesn=99t seem to be a consensus as to the proper way to resolve it an
d that the
=9Cfix=9D is more like a series of small corrections rather than
just one
modification.
>From my reading of the archives that heat enters the tunnel due to a number
of reasons:
=C2=B7 Radiant heat from exhaust stack
=C2=B7 Radiant heat from small cowl opening
=C2=B7 Heat leaking in from poorly sealed heater boxes
=C2=B7 Lack of air flow thru tunnel allowing hot air to build
>From what I can tell the most common solutions are:
=C2=B7 Insulated false floor
=C2=B7 Pilots side firewall insulation
=C2=B7 Engine side insulation (stick on or spray on)
=C2=B7 Additional gill vents on the underside of the cowl
=C2=B7 Proper sealing of heater boxes
=C2=B7 Cool air venting of tunnel
Unfortunately my full fuel system is already in place and adding the false
floor would be a challenge at this point. I am considering placing an OAT
sensor in the tunnel to monitor the temps.
One last note: we are planning to use the SJ Cold Induction cowl and plenum
with our BPE Cold Induction IO-540.
Can I get a consensus (metaphysical impossibility on the RV-List) as to the
best way(s) to prevent this issue based on having my fuel system in place a
nd
assuming we will to a top job of sealing the heater boxes?
Thanks in advance for your consideration.
Robin Marks
RV-4 Sold
RV-6A 350 Hours
RV-10 Parts, parts, parts N456RV Reserved
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
_http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew_ (http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew)
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
.
Message 18
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Robin,
I basically agree with Jim's reply to this question. Don't go sweating
about it all too much until you see that there is something to worry
about. I took just a few small basic steps before I flew (nothing
involving a false floor), and once again last week when I went flying
and got asked the tunnel heat question, I put my bare, sandal'd foot
against the tunnel. It was just the slightest bit warm, and not at
all hot. Do some firewall insulation, forward or aft (aft will also
help with deadening any interior cabin noises being reflected around),
stand off your heat valves with an insulator, and do some insulating
inside your tunnel and you're probably just fine. I added the
SCAT tube insulation this spring and I think that helps a bit too.
When you open the heat valves and turn on the heat, you definitely
will drastically raise the air temp in the tunnel, so insulating
those SCAT tubes and associated end T's will help keep that sealed
in a bit. I find it almost laughable that today people even consider
it a tunnel heat "problem", because I think that for most people
a few simple common-sense tweaks is all it will take...certainly
nothing to be overwhelmed with. 230+ hours of flying experience.
Look at Vic...I think he's just approaching 500 now. Ray is over
200 too. If there were a major issue, there are enough flying
hours being put on some of these -10's that you'd hear some
complaints if the simple things weren't plenty to take care of
the heat. I'm waiting for someone to put 2" of insulation on
the forward side of the firewall, completely louvre cover their
cowl bottom, and start putting fans in the tunnel with NACA vents
to direct air through the tunnel, all to fix a pretty minor issue.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Robin Marks wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I have read & re-read the archives regarding the tunnel heat
> issue and I am a bit confused. It seems some people have solved their
> heat issue but there doesnt seem to be a consensus as to the proper way
> to resolve it and that the fix is more like a series of small
> corrections rather than just one modification.
>
> From my reading of the archives that heat enters the tunnel
> due to a number of reasons:
>
>
>
> Radiant heat from exhaust stack
>
> Radiant heat from small cowl opening
>
> Heat leaking in from poorly sealed heater boxes
>
> Lack of air flow thru tunnel allowing hot air to build
>
>
>
> From what I can tell the most common solutions are:
>
>
>
> Insulated false floor
>
> Pilots side firewall insulation
>
> Engine side insulation (stick on or spray on)
>
> Additional gill vents on the underside of the cowl
>
> Proper sealing of heater boxes
>
> Cool air venting of tunnel
>
>
>
> Unfortunately my full fuel system is already in place and adding the
> false floor would be a challenge at this point. I am considering placing
> an OAT sensor in the tunnel to monitor the temps.
>
> One last note: we are planning to use the SJ Cold Induction cowl and
> plenum with our BPE Cold Induction IO-540.
>
> Can I get a consensus (metaphysical impossibility on the RV-List) as to
> the best way(s) to prevent this issue based on having my fuel system in
> place and assuming we will to a top job of sealing the heater boxes?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your consideration.
>
>
>
> Robin Marks
>
> RV-4 Sold
>
> RV-6A 350 Hours
>
> RV-10 Parts, parts, parts N456RV Reserved
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 19
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|
Could you give us some specifics about the fiberfrax thermal barrier? Application
method and supplier? Thanks. Jim
When are you going to be ready to fly? I am waiting on Will James to make my cowl
after several of you folks with Barrett cold air induction and plenum get
some egt and cht #'s.
>
> From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
> Date: 2007/06/12 Tue PM 04:31:38 EST
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tunnel Heat
>
>
> Robin, I was similarly confused/worried by the reports/solutions
> regarding tunnel heat. There are strong feeling about the source and the
> solution/s. in the end I reasoned that the biggest heat producer was
> forward of the firewall, and the best thing I could do was insulate the
> firewall. I ended up putting a fiberfrax thermal barrier between the
> original firewall and a 'faux' firewall that I placed on top of it. I
> also put a fiberfrax insulation barrier between the heater control boxes
> and the firewall's. There is a theory that some of the heat comes from
> the exhaust. If you order the John Forsling exhaust with the
> 'turn-downs' to go with your BPE cold air, the exhaust is extended
> further back.aft and away from the bottom of the fuse. here's links to
> some pictures.
>
> http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%2041%20Upper%20Fwd%20Fuse%20Install/slides/DSC03240.html
>
> Click forward and back to see other pictures.
>
> http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%20FF6%20Exhaust%20System/slides/DSC04747.html
>
> I have the plenum and the James Cowl and I don't seen (and haven't made)
> any changes relative to tunnel heat. There are several reports that
> adding vents to the bottom of the cowl improves CHT cooling, but none
> from anyone with the James cowl/plenum, I'm holding off until I fly to
> determine if it's necessary.
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Baffling / Plenum / Engine Stuff
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>
> Robin Marks wrote:
> >
> > Dear List,
> >
> > I have read & re-read the archives regarding the tunnel heat issue and
> > I am a bit confused. It seems some people have solved their heat issue
> > but there doesn?t seem to be a consensus as to the proper way to
> > resolve it and that the ?fix? is more like a series of small
> > corrections rather than just one modification.
> >
> > From my reading of the archives that heat enters the tunnel due to a
> > number of reasons:
> >
> > Radiant heat from exhaust stack
> >
> > Radiant heat from small cowl opening
> >
> > Heat leaking in from poorly sealed heater boxes
> >
> > Lack of air flow thru tunnel allowing hot air to build
> >
> > From what I can tell the most common solutions are:
> >
> > Insulated false floor
> >
> > Pilots side firewall insulation
> >
> > Engine side insulation (stick on or spray on)
> >
> > Additional gill vents on the underside of the cowl
> >
> > Proper sealing of heater boxes
> >
> > Cool air venting of tunnel
> >
> > Unfortunately my full fuel system is already in place and adding the
> > false floor would be a challenge at this point. I am considering
> > placing an OAT sensor in the tunnel to monitor the temps.
> >
> > One last note: we are planning to use the SJ Cold Induction cowl and
> > plenum with our BPE Cold Induction IO-540.
> >
> > Can I get a consensus (metaphysical impossibility on the RV-List) as
> > to the best way(s) to prevent this issue based on having my fuel
> > system in place and assuming we will to a top job of sealing the
> > heater boxes?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your consideration.
> >
> > Robin Marks
> >
> > RV-4 Sold
> >
> > RV-6A 350 Hours
> >
> > RV-10 Parts, parts, parts N456RV Reserved
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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FiberFrax is a light weight thermal insulation which can withstand temps
to 2400 degrees. It's available in a cloth like blanket aprox 3/32 "
thick. It's applied with its own adhesive. However if anyone wants to
pursue this, I have 2 bottles of adhesive I'd be happy to give away.
Caution the adhesive does NOT work well with Stainless steel, I used it
to put and hold in place while I put the stainless steel sandwich
together w/ rivets.
I 1st became aware of it when building a Long EZ, it was used as an
insulation blanket between the Rear bulkhead/firewall made from marine
plywood and the stainless steel heat/fire shield on the engine side.
Here's a link to Aircraft Spruce site:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/fiberfrax.php
There are at lest 2 other alternatives to fiber frax.
Cool Mat
Zyrtex
Deems Davis # 406
Baffling / Plenum / Engine Stuff
http://deemsrv10.com/
gorejr@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> Could you give us some specifics about the fiberfrax thermal barrier? Application
method and supplier? Thanks. Jim
> When are you going to be ready to fly? I am waiting on Will James to make my
cowl after several of you folks with Barrett cold air induction and plenum get
some egt and cht #'s.
>
>> Fr
>
Message 21
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> When are you going to be ready to fly?
Good question.... Sometime this year hopefully, best guess at this time
OCT. However, there is another RV-10 BPE cold air w/ James cowl/plenum
ahead of me. I just spoke to Gary Foster in OK, a couple of day's ago,
and he's getting VERY close
Deems Davis # 406
Baffling / Plenum / Engine Stuff
http://deemsrv10.com/
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: WSI Weather on the cheap |
Tim - where are you finding these?
I've looked around and come up empty.
Lost a bid on Ebay on the only one I found.
grumpy
In a message dated 6/12/2007 9:36:09 AM Central Standard Time, Tim@MyRV10.com
writes:
Here's a big WSI weather tip for y'all....
If you are looking for WSI weather and are worried about the
pricing of the receivers that you'd have to buy with the Sirius
system, and you've been holding off buying the old receiver
because you don't want to toss away your cash, read on.
You can get WSI on your Chelton or other EFIS for a LOT less
money than the price of a new receiver, but you need to act
FAST, and I mean really fast.
Recently I was poking around used equipment sites just surfing
for "WSI, AV-100" and "WSI, AV-200", the experimental and certified
systems. There are many avionics dealers dumping those units
because they are perceived as useless since the sirius upgrade
will require new receivers.
But, I talked to WSI and verified that if you activate a receiver
and have an active plan....even if you don't have the receiver
mounted in the plane yet, you are fully eligible for the free
receiver upgrade and you will receive the above AV-300 receiver
for FREE. So if you're within a year of flying, there is a huge
possibility that this would be of benefit to you.
Just to give you an idea, I ran across one receiver for $695, and
one for $895. It just doesn't get any cheaper than that. (Make sure
to call the places, because the website price was $1595) The only
thing that I'm unsure of is if you get a free antenna upgrade as
well as the receiver, and the antennas on the new units are $659
List Price (actual dealer pricing may be lower), so you may end
up re-purchasing a new antenna at a later date. But, you would
save the $3000-3688 on the receiver.
Also, I just got a mailing that said we should verify our mailing
addresses by June 15th for the receiver swap, so I would assume
that if you plan to do this, you should act extremely fast and buy
and activate something right way. You don't have to actually
power it up and activate it, just activate your plan.
I thought some of you would find this tip useful. I know the
2 guys who got to get those cheap receivers are thrilled.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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