---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/10/07: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:39 AM - Re: Alodine Question (Bob Leffler) 2. 04:12 AM - Re: Alodine Question (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 3. 04:15 AM - Re: Alodine Question (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 4. 05:15 AM - Re: Second Airplane? (Rob Kermanj) 5. 06:28 AM - Re: Second Airplane? (David McNeill) 6. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Alodine Question () 7. 07:08 AM - FW: check this (David McNeill) 8. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Alodine Question (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 9. 08:03 AM - Re: Second Airplane? (Robin Marks) 10. 08:15 AM - Re: FW: check this (William DeLacey) 11. 08:56 AM - Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's (Rhonda Bewley) 12. 09:09 AM - Re: Second Airplane? (John Jessen) 13. 09:25 AM - Re: Second Airplane? (Phillips, Jack) 14. 09:53 AM - Re: FW: check this (Dave Saylor) 15. 09:55 AM - Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's (orchidman) 16. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's (Rhonda Bewley) 17. 10:54 AM - Re: Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's (John W. Cox) 18. 11:12 AM - Alodine (Fred Williams, M.D.) 19. 11:53 AM - Fuel senders (John Gonzalez) 20. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: Rivethead Aero, are you out there? (Vernon Smith) 21. 12:51 PM - Re: Fuel senders (pilotdds@aol.com) 22. 01:02 PM - Re: Fuel senders (evmeg@snowcrest.net) 23. 01:15 PM - Side mounting Odyssey PC925 battery (Vernon Smith) 24. 01:25 PM - Re: Side mounting Odyssey PC925 battery (Chris and Susie McGough) 25. 04:20 PM - Re: Second Airplane? (Marcus Cooper) 26. 10:43 PM - Nose Wheel Torque (Jeff Carpenter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:38 AM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question I suspect some sort of contamination, but not with the alodine solution. During the same session, I treated fifty plus components with no issues what so ever. It was only on the four elevator skins, which couldn't fit into the dip tank. My thoughts that the contamination may have come from the foam brush, but it came from the same package of brushes that I used before without incident. Hopefully, I can identify the true cause of this so it can be prevented in the future. Also, these blue-green splotches cleared up after completing drying. They now appear as if those areas were never treated. From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DLIUDVINAITIS@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 11:16 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine Question BOB I ALSO SEEN THIS BLUE STAINING WHEN USING ALODINE, IT DID TAKE LONGER TO REACT TO ALUMINUM. MUST BE CONTAMINATED WITH METAL PREP CLEANING SOLUTION. I DUMPED OLD SOLUTION WENT WITH NEW, NO PROBLEMS NOW, I AM APPLYING IT FULL STRENGHT WITH A SPONGE. IT REACTS IN 3 MINS TURNING LIGHT GOLD IN COLOR, NO NEED TO BE ANY DARKER JUST GOLD. DAVE LUDD #40466 FUSELAGE _____ See what's n="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. __________ NOD32 2518 (20070910) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:32 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question Bob, I used mine for almost 2 years without ever mixing in new and I occasionally saw what you are talking about. After about 6 months or so the Alodine mix didn't seem to be working as well and started to show some of what you are seeing. Turns out the stuff just needed to be mixed up and kept agitated. Because I always kept mine in a 30 gal trash can I just threw in a fairly large aquarium power head with a long hose attached to it. I left it on 24/7 and when I need to fill a dip tank it also doubled as a way to pump it in to the tank via the hose. Worked fine from then on. Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:07 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question I used about 5 gallons in my dip tank, which is the shipping crate that the spars for the empennage came in. The first time I used it was back in March, then in May, and finally today. I've added about a gallon of new each time. I haven't seen rings in the plastic containers I store the alodine in and I keep it in a dark corner of the basement. I didn't get any discoloration in the pieces that were fully dipped, just the larger pieces that were painted with a foam brush. I'll pass along Eldorado's comments when/if I get them. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Williams, M.D. Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:15 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine Question Bob; I have used the same solution as you have and have also had occasional staining of areas. I think it is the chromate. It seems to form more in the older solutions. I keep the mixed dorado kote in a clean plastic bucket. As it gets older a green ring will start to form around the top of the bucket. Concurrently, the solution takes longer to react with the surface. I can usually rinse most of it off. I have used Sherwin Williams primer over the top of those stains and have not seen any flaking or change in the coat. I would be interested in hearing their reply. Fred Williams 40515 Bob Leffler wrote: > > I've been using Dorado Kote 1 for some time now with good results. All > the parts that I put into the dip tank this afternoon came out looking > great. In the past, I've used a foam brush to coat the solution on the > inside of the skins and other parts too large to fit into the tank. I > not had any problems doing this before. However, today on several of > the skins, I had some blue-green splotches appear instead of the > normal bronze color. > > Any idea what may have caused this? Should this cause a concern? > Should I attempt to remove this or is it ok to prime with AKZO? > > I've also sent an email off to Eldorado already, so hopefully I'll > hear back from them tomorrow. > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > __________ NOD32 2516 (20070909) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:34 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question Hmm, now that does sound different than what I have seen. Try cleaning those areas with some soapy water and run through the process again to see if that makes some difference. From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:39 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question I suspect some sort of contamination, but not with the alodine solution. D uring the same session, I treated fifty plus components with no issues what so ever. It was only on the four elevator skins, which couldn't fit into the dip tank. My thoughts that the contamination may have come from the fo am brush, but it came from the same package of brushes that I used before w ithout incident. Hopefully, I can identify the true cause of this so it can be prevented in the future. Also, these blue-green splotches cleared up after completing d rying. They now appear as if those areas were never treated. From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of DLIUDVINAITIS@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 11:16 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine Question BOB I ALSO SEEN THIS BLUE STAINING WHEN USING ALODINE, IT DID TAKE LONGER TO RE ACT TO ALUMINUM. MUST BE CONTAMINATED WITH METAL PREP CLEANING SOLUTION. I DUMPED OLD SOLUTION WENT WITH NEW, NO PROBLEMS NOW, I AM APPLYING IT FULL S TRENGHT WITH A SPONGE. IT REACTS IN 3 MINS TURNING LIGHT GOLD IN COLOR, NO NEED TO BE ANY DARKER JUST GOLD. DAVE LUDD #40466 FUSELAGE ________________________________ See what's n="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2518 (20070910) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:21 AM PST US From: Rob Kermanj Subject: Re: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Robin, I kept my RV6 along with the 10 for a few months. The fuel prices took a huge leap during the 10 construction and I thought that the 6 would facilitate "puddle jumping" but I found out that: My wife would not fly in the 6 any longer considering the additional passenger comfort the 10 offers. It was too much work for me to keep both plane serviced, safe and ready since I gravitated to work on the 10 more often. It does not cost a whole lot more to operate the 10. So after a few months, I sold my 6. Do not archive. On Sep 9, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Robin Marks wrote: > Are there any -10 builders keeping their two place planes or > planning on building a two place plane while keeping their -10? > I am considering a 7A or 8A plus the -10 (first flight Q2/2008) but > I believe the -10 is such a good balance in efficiency that I > probably can=92t justify another Vans model other than I want it. > Note acrobatics is nice but not an requirement for me. > > Robin > > Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:43 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? My Glastar panel is GRT Sport EFIS with backup partial panel and a TT Pictorial Pilot with a SL30 and G320. I am currently using XM weather in the Glastar. My 10 (not yet flying) has dual Cheltons as primary and a GRT Sport for backup and weather and a TT digitrak. I have found that after using the glass for a while a person's brain just rewires for the functions needed. If I keep the Glastar, it will be for low and slow and training my children. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 10:42 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Noel, Very funny. My thinking was probably a 7A. I believe you described my situation pretty well except we look for whales more than cows on the left coast. I also have a regular 55 minute commute that would work well for either plane. I am dying to order an 8A because I would probably like the a war bird paint scheme but the side by side is more practical and I suspect more comfortable, especially when giving tours. The matching panels is a good idea in theory but I hope the 7A will cost just a touch more than my -10 panel. I think the small plane that I NEED will be an all glass VFR bird vs. a hard IFR traveler. Robin From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Simmons Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 2:40 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Robin, I get a chance to fly several different RV's thought the year. The RV-10 I built was great for XC, lousy for "checking the Cows". The RV-7 I just watched fly over the horizon to its new home was great for Checking cows and could easily do some shorter XC like 1.5 hours. The -7 was easier and faster to get out of the shop and in the air than the -10. So what I am saying is you NEED both! Don't need cows there are plenty other people have those scattered around. If you are going to go somewhere get in the -10 if you are just going to be with one other person eating pancakes within 30 minutes of the house get in the -7. Interestingly enough you might think about having the same panel design for both aircraft. That way you will not get lost bouncing between the two. Daily time I have spent in each model and comments RV-6A = 7hours really ready to get out RV-7 = 6hours just right, did sleep good that night RV-8A = 9hours should have gotten out 4 hours earlier RV-9A= 13.7hours should have gotten out 9 hours earlier RV-10 = 10.5hours was ready for diner and could have flown a few more hours. Now when Van's get the motor glider up you will NEED one of those too. Noel Simmons A&P CFI Builder of fine aircraft www.blueskyaviation.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:12 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question Michael, This may be a contributing factor. I store my alodine in gallon jugs and pour it into the plastic lined shipping crate when I use it. The only agitation that it would have received would have been from being dumped from one container to another. Probably not very good. The other alternative is tht I did mix a new gallon that was added just a few minutes beforehand. Perhaps I didn't get it throughly mixed up. I guess that's the downside of going with the powder version and mixing it yourself. I'm going to have to look for another type of container if I want to continue to dip parts. Other than the longerons, I don't think may parts in the tail cone will fit. Thanks for your comments..... bob > > From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > Date: 2007/09/10 Mon AM 06:11:25 EST > To: "rv10-list@matronics.com" > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question > > > Bob, > > I used mine for almost 2 years without ever mixing in new and I occasionally saw what you are talking about. After about 6 months or so the Alodine mix didn't seem to be working as well and started to show some of what you are seeing. Turns out the stuff just needed to be mixed up and kept agitated. Because I always kept mine in a 30 gal trash can I just threw in a fairly large aquarium power head with a long hose attached to it. I left it on 24/7 and when I need to fill a dip tank it also doubled as a way to pump it in to the tank via the hose. Worked fine from then on. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:07 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question > > > I used about 5 gallons in my dip tank, which is the shipping crate that the > spars for the empennage came in. The first time I used it was back in > March, then in May, and finally today. I've added about a gallon of new > each time. > > I haven't seen rings in the plastic containers I store the alodine in and I > keep it in a dark corner of the basement. I didn't get any discoloration in > the pieces that were fully dipped, just the larger pieces that were painted > with a foam brush. > > I'll pass along Eldorado's comments when/if I get them. > > Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Williams, > M.D. > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:15 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine Question > > > > Bob; > > I have used the same solution as you have and have also had occasional > staining of areas. I think it is the chromate. It seems to form more in > the older solutions. I keep the mixed dorado kote in a clean plastic > bucket. As it gets older a green ring will start to form around the top > of the bucket. Concurrently, the solution takes longer to react with the > surface. I can usually rinse most of it off. I have used Sherwin > Williams primer over the top of those stains and have not seen any > flaking or change in the coat. > > I would be interested in hearing their reply. > > Fred Williams > 40515 > > Bob Leffler wrote: > > > > I've been using Dorado Kote 1 for some time now with good results. All > > the parts that I put into the dip tank this afternoon came out looking > > great. In the past, I've used a foam brush to coat the solution on the > > inside of the skins and other parts too large to fit into the tank. I > > not had any problems doing this before. However, today on several of > > the skins, I had some blue-green splotches appear instead of the > > normal bronze color. > > > > Any idea what may have caused this? Should this cause a concern? > > Should I attempt to remove this or is it ok to prime with AKZO? > > > > I've also sent an email off to Eldorado already, so hopefully I'll > > hear back from them tomorrow. > > > > * > > > > > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 2516 (20070909) Information __________ > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:46 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RV10-List: FW: check this _____ From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007@cox.net] Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 7:03 AM Subject: check this http://www.modbee.com/local/story/57854.html ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:07 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question I went with the powder from ElDorado also. What I ended up doing was getting a heavy duty 32 gallon Rubbermaid trash bin and put the castors on it so I can roll it around. I mixed up about 25 gallons and then I just keep it in there where it's safe from light and evaporation. I did notice before I was keeping it agitated there was a fair amount of precipitation of stuff out of the solution on the bottom of the bin when I pumped it into a dip tank. Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rvmail@thelefflers.com Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: Re: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question Michael, This may be a contributing factor. I store my alodine in gallon jugs and pour it into the plastic lined shipping crate when I use it. The only agitation that it would have received would have been from being dumped from one container to another. Probably not very good. The other alternative is tht I did mix a new gallon that was added just a few minutes beforehand. Perhaps I didn't get it throughly mixed up. I guess that's the downside of going with the powder version and mixing it yourself. I'm going to have to look for another type of container if I want to continue to dip parts. Other than the longerons, I don't think may parts in the tail cone will fit. Thanks for your comments..... bob > > From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > Date: 2007/09/10 Mon AM 06:11:25 EST > To: "rv10-list@matronics.com" > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question > > > Bob, > > I used mine for almost 2 years without ever mixing in new and I occasionally saw what you are talking about. After about 6 months or so the Alodine mix didn't seem to be working as well and started to show some of what you are seeing. Turns out the stuff just needed to be mixed up and kept agitated. Because I always kept mine in a 30 gal trash can I just threw in a fairly large aquarium power head with a long hose attached to it. I left it on 24/7 and when I need to fill a dip tank it also doubled as a way to pump it in to the tank via the hose. Worked fine from then on. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:07 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine Question > > > I used about 5 gallons in my dip tank, which is the shipping crate that the > spars for the empennage came in. The first time I used it was back in > March, then in May, and finally today. I've added about a gallon of new > each time. > > I haven't seen rings in the plastic containers I store the alodine in and I > keep it in a dark corner of the basement. I didn't get any discoloration in > the pieces that were fully dipped, just the larger pieces that were painted > with a foam brush. > > I'll pass along Eldorado's comments when/if I get them. > > Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Williams, > M.D. > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:15 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine Question > > > > Bob; > > I have used the same solution as you have and have also had occasional > staining of areas. I think it is the chromate. It seems to form more in > the older solutions. I keep the mixed dorado kote in a clean plastic > bucket. As it gets older a green ring will start to form around the top > of the bucket. Concurrently, the solution takes longer to react with the > surface. I can usually rinse most of it off. I have used Sherwin > Williams primer over the top of those stains and have not seen any > flaking or change in the coat. > > I would be interested in hearing their reply. > > Fred Williams > 40515 > > Bob Leffler wrote: > > > > I've been using Dorado Kote 1 for some time now with good results. All > > the parts that I put into the dip tank this afternoon came out looking > > great. In the past, I've used a foam brush to coat the solution on the > > inside of the skins and other parts too large to fit into the tank. I > > not had any problems doing this before. However, today on several of > > the skins, I had some blue-green splotches appear instead of the > > normal bronze color. > > > > Any idea what may have caused this? Should this cause a concern? > > Should I attempt to remove this or is it ok to prime with AKZO? > > > > I've also sent an email off to Eldorado already, so hopefully I'll > > hear back from them tomorrow. > > > > * > > > > > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 2516 (20070909) Information __________ > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? From: "Robin Marks" Ron, That is my concern, that I go to all the trouble and expense of another build and find I don't NEED it or don't fly enough hours to satisfy both planes. I currently fly about 150 hours/ year (average since certified in early 2002). Is a 100 RV-10 hours & 50 7A hours/year reasonable? Maybe, but maybe all RV-10 time would be OK too? Hummmmm tough call. Need & Want, it's funny where they fall on the graph of life. Thanks for your input, Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kermanj Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:14 AM Subjeconcern,ct: Re: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Ron, Robin, I kept my RV6 along with the 10 for a few months. The fuel prices took a huge leap during the 10 construction and I thought that the 6 would facilitate "puddle jumping" but I found out that: My wife would not fly in the 6 any longer considering the additional passenger comfort the 10 offers. It was too much work for me to keep both plane serviced, safe and ready since I gravitated to work on the 10 more often. It does not cost a whole lot more to operate the 10. So after a few months, I sold my 6. Do not archive. On Sep 9, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Robin Marks wrote: Are there any -10 builders keeping their two place planes or planning on building a two place plane while keeping their -10? I am considering a 7A or 8A plus the -10 (first flight Q2/2008) but I believe the -10 is such a good balance in efficiency that I probably can't justify another Vans model other than I want it. Note acrobatics is nice but not an requirement for me. Robin Do Not Archive http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:22 AM PST US From: William DeLacey Subject: RE: RV10-List: FW: check this If you play russian roulette long enough-- you will lose. From: dlm46007@cox.netTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RV10-List: FW: ch eck thisDate: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:04:55 -0700 From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007@cox.net] Sent: Monday, September 10, 2 007 7:03 AMTo: 'David McNeill'Subject: check this http://www.modbee.com/local/story/57854.html ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's From: "Rhonda Bewley" Gary: What are the differences he's telling you that account for several thousand dollars in savings? What parts that are required at o'h is he using, what is he leaving out? What parts are "experimental only?" If you're talking about cases and a crankshaft that are experimental only, that could mean that they are not in airworthy condition (i.e., outside of serviceable limits.) This would be something akin to what airboat builders do as we've discussed on this list before. You can put anything you want to in your airplane, but make sure that you know what you're getting and that you're perfectly comfortable putting your family behind that engine. Rhonda 2. I am starting to work with my local engine shop and one question that came up early in the conversation was experimental or certified? I asked him why he asked and he explained the differences in the engine that he was talking about and I can live with them. The pro is saving several thousand $ but he said that some people want certified for insurance reasons. My question is that when you went for insurance on your 10, did they ask about the engine whether it was certified or not and if so what were the differences in premiums and insurability? Was there a difference? [Jesse Saint] A certified engine will save you 15 hours on the Phase 1 flight testing period, 25 instead of 40 hours, assuming that you keep everything certified including the prop. Beyond that, you are getting the exact same engine if you stick with the O-540 or IO-540. If you want to go with a used or overhauled engine, then you will most likely be certified, unless you make some changes that will make it experimental, like electronic ignition, experimental fuel injection system, etc. I have not heard of any insurance rate differences. In fact, I haven't even heard any reports of the insurance company asking, possibly not even on the alternative engines, but I am just going from personal experience here, not having talked to everybody about their experience. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? From: John Jessen Needs and wants. Do any of us really NEED an RV-10, or any airplane, for that matter? Some justify the plane as an efficient means to visit the grandparents or grandkids, who live in a place that is difficult and expensive to get to via public transportation. Some use planes for short business trips. But, by in large, most of us don't need these planes, other than to satisfy some inner need to be a pilot and experience the joy of flight. I believe this, and the relative low cost and ability to work on them, is what has made the RV's so amazingly popular. They are a joy to fly. Maybe not so practical or comfortable, but a joy to fly. Then along comes the RV-10. More practical, and still has a flying quality that makes it fun. Plus, the pride of building it, working on it, outfitting it, painting it your own design, yadda yadda yadda. There's an RV-10 builder in Oregon, not far from me, who currently owns a Glastar and just rebuilt a Super Cub. He's selling the Glastar and keeping the Cub. Big tundra tires on it. Beautiful plane. He loves flying into the back woods and landing on river banks to do some camping and fishing. He was doing this with the Glastar, but it just couldn't match what his friends were able to do with their Cubs and Maules. He also likes to get up and go to visit family and friends and so on. If he has a Super Cub, forget speed. Forget comfort for the back seater (he usually flies with his dog in back in the Cub. He only has a sling seat back there, anyway.) So, since his absolute passion is flying, he felt the need for two planes to match his two missions. Besides, he has the money to do it. You don't need any of these planes, unless that need stems from passion. Of course any addiction can be described the same way. The RV-10 is a good, all around compromise. Fast, carries a bunch, but is still a lot better handling than a Cessna 206, and carries more than a Bonanza 35 or 33. You built it and that is satisfying. You work on it, so that lessens ownership cost and is rewarding in its own right. But you can't land it on real short or rough airstrips, let alone sand bars. It's a little more expensive than a two seat RV for that $100 breakfast, but just how much more it costs is rather silly to think about when you've already ploughed over $100,000 into it. So that ham and eggs cost another $10. What's the big deal? Are you worried that you won't just go flying some evening because of the largeness of it or the shear joy of zooming through the ether? Well, that's a good point. I hear that strapping on an RV-3 is pretty amazing if you want to just go zoom. Naa, best to think about the mission and not the cost of operations. You want to play fighter pilot, then build a two seater that handles as if you and it are neurologically linked. You want to land on sand bars, get a Cub or Glastar. You want to take friends and family in comfort to the Reno Air Races, finish the 10. You want to do a combination? Then you've got some real good options in front of you, and you'll soon be saying to your buds that you can never have too many airplanes! No matter the road, you have some real good fun in store. John J 328. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:03 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Ron, That is my concern, that I go to all the trouble and expense of another build and find I don't NEED it or don't fly enough hours to satisfy both planes. I currently fly about 150 hours/ year (average since certified in early 2002). Is a 100 RV-10 hours & 50 7A hours/year reasonable? Maybe, but maybe all RV-10 time would be OK too? Hummmmm tough call. Need & Want, it's funny where they fall on the graph of life. Thanks for your input, Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kermanj Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:14 AM Subjeconcern,ct: Re: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Ron, Robin, I kept my RV6 along with the 10 for a few months. The fuel prices took a huge leap during the 10 construction and I thought that the 6 would facilitate "puddle jumping" but I found out that: My wife would not fly in the 6 any longer considering the additional passenger comfort the 10 offers. It was too much work for me to keep both plane serviced, safe and ready since I gravitated to work on the 10 more often. It does not cost a whole lot more to operate the 10. So after a few months, I sold my 6. Do not archive. On Sep 9, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Robin Marks wrote: Are there any -10 builders keeping their two place planes or planning on building a two place plane while keeping their -10? I am considering a 7A or 8A plus the -10 (first flight Q2/2008) but I believe the -10 is such a good balance in efficiency that I probably can't justify another Vans model other than I want it. Note acrobatics is nice but not an requirement for me. Robin Do Not Archive http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:32 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? From: "Phillips, Jack" I always figured I need 4 airplanes: One for low and slow fun flying One for aerobatics One for travel One seaplane Currently I have 2 planes that fill 3 of those needs: Pietenpol Air Camper for low and slow (can't beat an open cockpit with a 29 mph stall speed) RV4 (good for travel as long as you're not carrying much luggage, and reasonably good for aerobatics) I'll sell the RV4 when I finish the -10. By then maybe my need for aerobatics will have lessened. Maybe I'll put the -10 on floats... Jack Phillips #40610 Finished the Tail kit, waiting through Financial Hold to order the QB wings and fuselage _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:09 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Needs and wants. Do any of us really NEED an RV-10, or any airplane, for that matter? Some justify the plane as an efficient means to visit the grandparents or grandkids, who live in a place that is difficult and expensive to get to via public transportation. Some use planes for short business trips. But, by in large, most of us don't need these planes, other than to satisfy some inner need to be a pilot and experience the joy of flight. I believe this, and the relative low cost and ability to work on them, is what has made the RV's so amazingly popular. They are a joy to fly. Maybe not so practical or comfortable, but a joy to fly. Then along comes the RV-10. More practical, and still has a flying quality that makes it fun. Plus, the pride of building it, working on it, outfitting it, painting it your own design, yadda yadda yadda. There's an RV-10 builder in Oregon, not far from me, who currently owns a Glastar and just rebuilt a Super Cub. He's selling the Glastar and keeping the Cub. Big tundra tires on it. Beautiful plane. He loves flying into the back woods and landing on river banks to do some camping and fishing. He was doing this with the Glastar, but it just couldn't match what his friends were able to do with their Cubs and Maules. He also likes to get up and go to visit family and friends and so on. If he has a Super Cub, forget speed. Forget comfort for the back seater (he usually flies with his dog in back in the Cub. He only has a sling seat back there, anyway.) So, since his absolute passion is flying, he felt the need for two planes to match his two missions. Besides, he has the money to do it. You don't need any of these planes, unless that need stems from passion. Of course any addiction can be described the same way. The RV-10 is a good, all around compromise. Fast, carries a bunch, but is still a lot better handling than a Cessna 206, and carries more than a Bonanza 35 or 33. You built it and that is satisfying. You work on it, so that lessens ownership cost and is rewarding in its own right. But you can't land it on real short or rough airstrips, let alone sand bars. It's a little more expensive than a two seat RV for that $100 breakfast, but just how much more it costs is rather silly to think about when you've already ploughed over $100,000 into it. So that ham and eggs cost another $10. What's the big deal? Are you worried that you won't just go flying some evening because of the largeness of it or the shear joy of zooming through the ether? Well, that's a good point. I hear that strapping on an RV-3 is pretty amazing if you want to just go zoom. Naa, best to think about the mission and not the cost of operations. You want to play fighter pilot, then build a two seater that handles as if you and it are neurologically linked. You want to land on sand bars, get a Cub or Glastar. You want to take friends and family in comfort to the Reno Air Races, finish the 10. You want to do a combination? Then you've got some real good options in front of you, and you'll soon be saying to your buds that you can never have too many airplanes! No matter the road, you have some real good fun in store. John J 328. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:03 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Ron, That is my concern, that I go to all the trouble and expense of another build and find I don't NEED it or don't fly enough hours to satisfy both planes. I currently fly about 150 hours/ year (average since certified in early 2002). Is a 100 RV-10 hours & 50 7A hours/year reasonable? Maybe, but maybe all RV-10 time would be OK too? Hummmmm tough call. Need & Want, it's funny where they fall on the graph of life. Thanks for your input, Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kermanj Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:14 AM Subjeconcern,ct: Re: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Ron, Robin, I kept my RV6 along with the 10 for a few months. The fuel prices took a huge leap during the 10 construction and I thought that the 6 would facilitate "puddle jumping" but I found out that: My wife would not fly in the 6 any longer considering the additional passenger comfort the 10 offers. It was too much work for me to keep both plane serviced, safe and ready since I gravitated to work on the 10 more often. It does not cost a whole lot more to operate the 10. So after a few months, I sold my 6. Do not archive. On Sep 9, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Robin Marks wrote: Are there any -10 builders keeping their two place planes or planning on building a two place plane while keeping their -10? I am considering a 7A or 8A plus the -10 (first flight Q2/2008) but I believe the -10 is such a good balance in efficiency that I probably can't justify another Vans model other than I want it. Note acrobatics is nice but not an requirement for me. Robin Do Not Archive http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:46 AM PST US From: "Dave Saylor" Subject: RE: RV10-List: FW: check this I think that's what polite company calls "clue-impaired". do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 7:05 AM Subject: RV10-List: FW: check this _____ From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007@cox.net] Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 7:03 AM Subject: check this http://www.modbee.com/local/story/57854.html ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:38 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's From: "orchidman" Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com wrote: > Gary: > > What are the differences he's telling you that account for several thousand dollars in savings? What parts that are required at o'h is he using, what is he leaving out? What parts are "experimental only?" If you're talking about cases and a crankshaft that are experimental only, that could mean that they are not in airworthy condition (i.e., outside of serviceable limits.) This would be something akin to what airboat builders do as we've discussed on this list before. > > Rhonda > The considerations are with the case. A case could have the flange out by a couple thousandths and when trued up the flange mating thickness might not meet Lyc thickness tolerances. Depending on where it is located, it could be very safe but not meeting tolerances. The builder is a real straight shooter and we will talk out each step of the whole process. I need to know all the ramifications and the insurance one was the only variable of many under consideration that I didn't have any experience with. -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 Fuselage SB (N410GB reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=133766#133766 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's From: "Rhonda Bewley" Yes, thin cases do make their way on to experimental only engines from some builders. Best of luck in your build! Rhonda Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:55 AM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com wrote: > Gary: > > What are the differences he's telling you that account for several thousand dollars in savings? What parts that are required at o'h is he using, what is he leaving out? What parts are "experimental only?" If you're talking about cases and a crankshaft that are experimental only, that could mean that they are not in airworthy condition (i.e., outside of serviceable limits.) This would be something akin to what airboat builders do as we've discussed on this list before. > > Rhonda > The considerations are with the case. A case could have the flange out by a couple thousandths and when trued up the flange mating thickness might not meet Lyc thickness tolerances. Depending on where it is located, it could be very safe but not meeting tolerances. The builder is a real straight shooter and we will talk out each step of the whole process. I need to know all the ramifications and the insurance one was the only variable of many under consideration that I didn't have any experience with. -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 Fuselage SB (N410GB reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=133766#133766 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:21 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's From: "John W. Cox" What is missed for many builders choosing non-TCDS engines, is that there are several other issues to address. You glanced off one which is airboat motors being sold, how about ground power units being sold and former certificated units which did not receive the required compliance with AD notes to remain certification. There are lots of things to be cautious of. 25 vs. 40 hours of fly off is an overly simplistic number which masks the risks. The most important, know your builder and understand what you are buying. We are dealing with a prop strike last September on another aircraft. First there was the obvious hub inspection, the replacement of all the antenna array under the fuselage that was wiped off, the damage to the airframe, then the replacement of the three blades of MT propellers, now it turns out that just looking at the oil was neither wise nor compliant. It is amazing how expensive copper glitter can be once it is found in the oil. And no, I was not the pilot. Nor was I the mechanic that said go ahead and fly it "the oil is clean". We could have had a dual screen Chelton. Even one of us posted about a cracked sump on his new certificated Lycoming from VANS. Like that credit card commercial... "What is your warranty in your wallet? Choose wisely. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rhonda Bewley Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:13 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's Yes, thin cases do make their way on to experimental only engines from some builders. Best of luck in your build! Rhonda Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:55 AM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Lights, Engine, & FF Kit Q's Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com wrote: > Gary: > > What are the differences he's telling you that account for several thousand dollars in savings? What parts that are required at o'h is he using, what is he leaving out? What parts are "experimental only?" If you're talking about cases and a crankshaft that are experimental only, that could mean that they are not in airworthy condition (i.e., outside of serviceable limits.) This would be something akin to what airboat builders do as we've discussed on this list before. > > Rhonda > The considerations are with the case. A case could have the flange out by a couple thousandths and when trued up the flange mating thickness might not meet Lyc thickness tolerances. Depending on where it is located, it could be very safe but not meeting tolerances. The builder is a real straight shooter and we will talk out each step of the whole process. I need to know all the ramifications and the insurance one was the only variable of many under consideration that I didn't have any experience with. -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 Fuselage SB (N410GB reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=133766#133766 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:59 AM PST US From: "Fred Williams, M.D." Subject: RV10-List: Alodine After thinking some more about the "green/blue precipitate" I googled alodine and started looking down the list. I recommend using a respirator when mixing the powder. Inhaled in humans it is reported to be carcinogenic. I think the trash can idea on wheels is a good one. Fred Williams, MD. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:09 AM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: RV10-List: Fuel senders What have others done when putting in there fuel senders. Are people using the rubber supplied gasket in addition to the proseal or just using the proseal? Thanks, John G. #409, building again ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:36 PM PST US From: Vernon Smith Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Rivethead Aero, are you out there? I also have a set of door latches on order since before Oshkosh. My credit card was charged so I think they got the order. On the bright side they sti ll have an answering machine and the phone has not been disconnected. My gu ess is they have been flood with orders since Oshkosh and are trying to get unburied. Vern Smith do not archive> From: VHMUM@bigpond.com> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subje ct: Re: RV10-List: Re: Rivethead Aero, are you out there?> Date: Sun, 9 Sep cGough" > > Does anyone have a direct contact with this mob that could have a chat to > see what is going on as it has been 2 month s I am happy to send the reciept > from Paypal.> They dont answer there pho ne or emails.> > If not I will take it the money is lost and I will just pu ====> > > _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf =E9. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel senders From: pilotdds@aol.com Cork gaskets work better.The rubber ones distorted after a few hours and I replaced them with cork. -----Original Message----- From: John Gonzalez Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:52 am Subject: RV10-List: Fuel senders ? What have others done when putting in there fuel senders. Are people using the rubber supplied gasket in addition to the proseal or just using the proseal?? ? Thanks,? ? John G. #409, building again? ? ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel senders From: evmeg@snowcrest.net Throw out the gasket and just use sealant.....and a dab of it under each screw head as well. As you tighten, it will squidge out and make a perfect gasket. Cheers.... Evan > > What have others done when putting in there fuel senders. Are people using > the rubber supplied gasket in addition to the proseal or just using the > proseal? > > Thanks, > > John G. #409, building again > > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using SnowCrest WebMail. http://www.snowcrest.net ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:57 PM PST US From: Vernon Smith Subject: RV10-List: Side mounting Odyssey PC925 battery Does anyone have pictures of their hold-down system for mounting a Odyssey PC 925 on its side? I've looked at Tim's and Deems' sites, but they both mo unted the battery top side up. My understanding is by side mounting it the original tray wouldn't need to be cut up. Any input would be helpful. Thanks, Vern Smith (#324) _________________________________________________________________ Can you find the hidden words?- Take a break and play Seekadoo! http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:17 PM PST US From: "Chris and Susie McGough" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Side mounting Odyssey PC925 battery Yes thats correct it fits side ways without any modification Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Vernon Smith To: RV 10 list Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:15 AM Subject: RV10-List: Side mounting Odyssey PC925 battery Does anyone have pictures of their hold-down system for mounting a Odyssey PC 925 on its side? I've looked at Tim's and Deems' sites, but they both mounted the battery top side up. My understanding is by side mounting it the original tray wouldn't need to be cut up. Any input would be helpful. Thanks, Vern Smith (#324) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Can you find the hidden words? Take a break and play Seekadoo! Play now! ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:48 PM PST US From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Robin, I've built several airplanes, the first 3 were 2 seaters of various missions before building my -10. The 10 is a fantastic cross country machine and as everyone has indicated is by far the most comfortable of all the Van's airplanes for the passenger (my last airplane was a RV-6). I too am considering another airplane in the future. Right now I get all the acro I need courtesy of the USAF, but that will come to an end in just over a year so I am planning on getting an aerobatic biplane (my second project was a Skybolt and I really miss it). Since you said aerobatics were not really a priority I would suggest the -10 would suit your needs pretty well and the expense of maintenance and insurance alone would far outweigh any savings in fuel while flying a 7. So, my 2 cents are if you have a significantly different desire - amphib, acro, low and slow, etc then a second airplane would be great. Otherwise I'd stick with the 10 until you feel it isn't meeting your needs/wants. Marcus 40286 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:03 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Ron, That is my concern, that I go to all the trouble and expense of another build and find I don't NEED it or don't fly enough hours to satisfy both planes. I currently fly about 150 hours/ year (average since certified in early 2002). Is a 100 RV-10 hours & 50 7A hours/year reasonable? Maybe, but maybe all RV-10 time would be OK too? Hummmmm tough call. Need & Want, it's funny where they fall on the graph of life. Thanks for your input, Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kermanj Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:14 AM Subjeconcern,ct: Re: RV10-List: Second Airplane? Ron, Robin, I kept my RV6 along with the 10 for a few months. The fuel prices took a huge leap during the 10 construction and I thought that the 6 would facilitate "puddle jumping" but I found out that: My wife would not fly in the 6 any longer considering the additional passenger comfort the 10 offers. It was too much work for me to keep both plane serviced, safe and ready since I gravitated to work on the 10 more often. It does not cost a whole lot more to operate the 10. So after a few months, I sold my 6. Do not archive. On Sep 9, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Robin Marks wrote: Are there any -10 builders keeping their two place planes or planning on building a two place plane while keeping their -10? I am considering a 7A or 8A plus the -10 (first flight Q2/2008) but I believe the -10 is such a good balance in efficiency that I probably can't justify another Vans model other than I want it. Note acrobatics is nice but not an requirement for me. Robin Do Not Archive http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:34 PM PST US From: Jeff Carpenter Subject: RV10-List: Nose Wheel Torque Vans has a Nose Wheel Torque posting up on the website... put up on 9/6. It seems to me that it addresses a problem Tim Olson brought up a while back relative to wear on the forks. Have I got this right? What say you Tim? Jeff Carpenter 40304 N410CF (reserved) Firewall backward Do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.