Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:09 AM - Oil Canning (McGANN, Ron)
2. 04:20 AM - Re: RV-10 Incident (Jesse Saint)
3. 04:29 AM - Re: Vinyl? (Phillips, Jack)
4. 05:43 AM - Re: Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or ground wi (zackrv8)
5. 05:52 AM - Re: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS! (rtitsworth)
6. 06:47 AM - Re: Bad battery/bad experience (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
7. 06:50 AM - Re: RV-10 Incident (Rick Sked)
8. 07:38 AM - Re: Bad battery/bad experience (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
9. 07:46 AM - Re: Fiberglass and antenna placement (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
10. 07:52 AM - Re: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS! (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
11. 08:09 AM - Re: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS! (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
12. 08:53 AM - GPS antennae (Fred Williams, M.D.)
13. 10:02 AM - Re: Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or ground wire termination (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
14. 11:15 AM - Re: RV-10 Incident (Scott Schmidt)
15. 12:27 PM - Re: Vinyl? (Jay Brinkmeyer)
16. 12:33 PM - Re: GPS antennae (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
17. 12:35 PM - Re: RV-10 Incident (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
18. 12:37 PM - Re: Vinyl? (Jay Brinkmeyer)
19. 02:08 PM - Re: glare shield paint (jayb)
20. 03:17 PM - Re: Fiberglass and antenna placement (John W. Cox)
21. 03:19 PM - Re: GPS antennae (John W. Cox)
22. 03:20 PM - Re: RV-10 Incident (Dave Saylor)
23. 04:15 PM - Re: Fiberglass and antenna placement (Rick Sked)
24. 04:43 PM - Re: Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or ground wire termination (Kevin Belue)
25. 05:38 PM - Re: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS! (bob.kaufmann)
26. 06:24 PM - Re: Retractable Seat Belt Question (GenGrumpy@aol.com)
27. 06:30 PM - Re: Retractable Seat Belt Question (John Lenhardt)
28. 08:47 PM - Re: GPS antennae (Fred Williams, M.D.)
29. 09:48 PM - Fuel Tank Calibration Problem (Dynon FliteDek 180) (Albert Gardner)
30. 10:35 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Calibration Problem (Dynon FliteDek 180) (Dave Saylor)
31. 11:12 PM - Re: Retractable Seat Belt Question (Robin Marks)
32. 11:13 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Calibration Problem (Dynon FliteDek 180) (Michael Wellenzohn)
Message 1
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Hey all,
Getting to the final assembly stage. I pulled out the VS that was
completed over 3 years ago. Did not know any better at the time and
thought my first airplane part was just fine. But there is significant
oil canning on both of the large aft-lower panels. The only other oil
canning I have is very minor on one or two of the lower wing skin
panels, so the VS is really giving me the irrits. Any clues on how to
tighten the skins?
cheers,
Ron
187 finishing
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Incident |
I didn't realize Ecuador was a southern gulf state. You learn something
new every day. I should talk to the airlines about how much they are
charging to fly down there. :-)
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
Rick Sked wrote:
>
> And Ecuador... :)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 5:30:36 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Incident
>
>
> Go easy, I am sure he meant a southern gulf state. So testing my
> geography that would be Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisianan, and
> Texas. There are many ways to read something.
>
> Larry
> do not archive
>
> Max wrote:
>>
>> "Alabama/Mississippi or the like"???
>>
>> If you don't know where she purchased it, I would leave statements like
>> this
>> out of your comments. You insult the many careful, diligent builders in
>> those areas. I know of many great builders from "Alabama/Mississippi or
>> the
>> like."
>> That said, it would have been good if you had been diligent enough to
>> get
>> the exact location so no one else would be duped by a lousy builder.
>>
>> Max
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:26 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Incident
>>
>> "that had purchased the plane from Alabama/Mississippi or the like."
>>
>> Robin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 3
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Talk with Denny Demeter at Av Grafix (http://www.avgrafix.com/). He did
all the vinyl garaphics and stencils for my Pietenpol, which won awards
at OSH. Easy to apply and no thicker than paint.
Jack Phillips
#40610
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ivo welch
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Vinyl?
Dear RV-10 list: I am about to start advertising my RV10 for sale
again. (http://welch.econ.brown.edu/n325hp). Moved to the standard CS
2-blade prop. For sale at $199k---it would probably be very tough to
build with the ingredients that are in this plane, much less in the pro
quality it was built. alas, its not looking as nice as it should.
so, I would also like to spruce up the looks with some vinyl stripe
design to go on top of the existing paint. Does anyone have good
experiences with someone who produces nice vinyl stripes for easy
application? help appreciated.
regards,
/ivo
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or ground wi |
Rick,
Rick Gray owns that site and put up those pics. You'll have to ask him.
Zack
--------
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134805#134805
Message 5
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| Subject: | Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS! |
Do inter tubes hold really Nitrogen better than air??? Air is composed of
~80% Nitrogen. So it would seem that if it is the "other" components of air
(mostly O2) that leak out, then the tube would still be ~80% full of
Nitrogen - and more so on successive re-fills. After the first subsequent
refill the air would be ~95% Nitrogen. After the second refill it would be
~99% Nitrogen.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- Subject:
RE: RV10-List: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS!
Just fill it with nitrogen and forget about it.
Bob K
Message 6
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| Subject: | Bad battery/bad experience |
I would not have had to build the 10 if I was a standard pilot!! I am
working on getting to that, but with the extra heat I am generating from
the exercise global warming is accelerating!
For the Egg update read my reply to John Cox's message that way I am not
clogging the BW with repeats, and getting flamed by the list police!
Dan
N289DT RV10E Flying and cooling better than expected!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bobby J.
Hughes
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
You mean you are not an FAA standard pilot? How is the Egg doing? Any
data you can share?
Bobby
40116
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
--> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
The new color, brown, especially works well when wiping up spilled
resin!
Actually, my wife gets all of my vendor shirts, because they always
order small guy sizes and those of us that are Horizontally challenged
do not fit in those girly man sizes....
Dan
N289DT RV10E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
Those SteinAir T-Shirts make great grease rags when lubing bearings, and
doing oil changes. ;) (just had to take that dig at Stein in hopes that
he's monitoring the list today)
Actually, if you want a bit of comment to read on dealing with dealers,
some of it related to Stein, see the off-list reply below that I sent to
another builder inquiring about where to buy servos. It has some
thinking points anyway.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I think you're better calling most any vendor with the
pricing questions. It gives them time to get to know you and what you
may need for the future, and help you decide what fits you best. Many
dealers don't publish their bottom price on the web, but they'll give
them to you as you're building your avionics packages. Also, Stark,
Alex, and SteinAir have all proven themselves to be great dealers to
work through. Stein especially has proven with that D2AV debacle that
he won't let any customers down. In that particular case, the people
that went through dealers fared better than those who bought direct.
One thing you'll find out as you buy avionics...dealer relationships are
important to build. There needs to be an understanding of where you
want to go, and they can help you get there in the best way for you.
All of these businesses are very very small in perspective to the
businesses you buy other goods from.
Your business means a lot to them, and they will be trying hard to
satisfy your needs properly. Right now, as you start buying your AP
servos, it's a good time to keep in mind that you're starting a
relationship. Good service is a two-way street too. When you buy from a
dealer, they'll be very happy to support you. Buy some things from the
mass sellers, like Aircraft Spruce (not that they're bad), and then just
see how good the support is when you have problems of a technical
nature. It doesn't make a dealer happy when you buy something a
discount Joe's, but then you call them because you can't get it to work.
But, buy that same item from them, and they'll bend over backwards to
make sure you get it working properly. The dollars you throw at them
will come back to you in the form of support, and considering that
you're not going to be just hauling your plane to the local avionics guy
and handing him a few hundred bucks for troubleshooting all these little
things, you're saving a fortune by having a good relationship with your
dealer.
As far as Stein goes, I didn't know him from Adam when I was first
buying. I got my servos direct, because I couldn't imagine that he'd
sell them cheaper. And, when I started looking at avionics, I resisted
actually pretty hard giving him business, because I thought that going
to a dealer was just going to cost me more money than buying direct or
going to ACS. It's actually funny that I can remember being very
cautious talking to him at first. Turns out he's been invaluable as a
dealer, and turned into a good friend. So yeah, I'm biased for sure,
but the man earned it from me. I would have never been so happy with my
avionics had I gone down my original path, and not had his guidance
along the way.
So yep, call any of the dealers and get to know them, and then give them
your request for quote.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> The best in this business are Stein Air and Flightline Interiors. If
> every company could replicate their customer service the world would
be
> in harmony.
> You can tell when a supplier loves their job, their product, and the
> community they sell to. Even though Stein gives me crap about not
> wearing his t-shirts during prime photo opportunities at Oshkosh, he
> still is a great supplier.
> Van's does a good job too but you really get a personal experience
> like working with Stein and Abby.
> www.steinair.com <http://www.steinair.com>
> http://www.flightlineinteriors.com/
>
> Scott Schmidt
> scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: pascal <rv10builder@verizon.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 7:35:35 AM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
>
> Looks like you were more patient than I. BBB needs to be advised. This
> will speak louder for others who look at the Tex-Air company and see
> that people have complained than anything else.
>
> On a different perspective and this is related to tools. I had a a
> countersink that broke shortly after using it for the empennage and I
> wrote Brown tools asking if it was normal. Michael Brown himself took
> the e-mail, expressed concern, asked for a picture with the writing so
> he could track the source, than immediately shipped out 2 replacement
> countersinks (different source). There are great support teams out
there
> and I'm sure using this forum and Tim's site we can steer those behind
> us in the right direction. Tim has mentioned SteinAir as a resource
> others other companies.
> Pascal
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Wayne Edgerton <mailto:wayne.e@grandecom.net>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2007 6:18 AM
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
>
> I thought I would pass along to you an experience I've had with
> Tex-Air Parts in Fort Worth on a Concorde battery I purchased from
> them. At the beginning of the year I
> purchase a Concorde RG25CX for my plane from Tex-Air but didn't
use
> it until May when I went to start the plane. The battery was DOA
and
> I returned it for exchange. They wouldn't exchange it outright but
> rather I had to buy a new one and they said they would process the
> credit and send it to me. As of today I still haven't received the
> credit. Below is an e-mail I sent them on Aug 25th and I'm still
> waiting for the refund.
>
> I guess what's irritating me is what appears to be their
> unwillingness to refund my money for a bad battery they sold me.
I'm
> just posting this to give others heads up on where you purchase
your
> items and be sure they will stand behind what they sell.
>
> Here is the e-mail I sent them on Aug 25th.
>
> Also I've noticed that when starting the plane with this battery I
> get an initial hesitation, like it's having difficulty turning the
> engine over but when I try the second time it turns over fine. In
> hindsight I might look at the Odyssey PC925 rather than the
Concorde.
>
> Wayne Edgerton N602WT
> a little pissed off at Tex-Air
>
> I WILL FWD YOUR EMAIL TO GENE. HE IS THE ONE THAT KNOWS ABOUT
> YOUR BATTERY. SORRY YOU ARE HAVING SO MUCH TROUBLE.
>
> THANKS,
> DONNA
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Wayne Edgerton [mailto:wayne.e@grandecom.net]
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 25, 2007 6:20 AM
> *To:* texair@texair.com
> *Subject:* Return refund
>
> To return credit manager,
>
> On 5/18/07 I returned a Concorde battery RG25CX, see attachment. I
> purchased the battery from your company for the RV10 that I was
> building. When I was ready to start my engine on the RV10 it would
> not start it. The battery was obviously defective somehow right
out
> of the box. So I returned the battery to your store in Fort Worth
> and purchased another one, which has worked fine. I was told at
the
> time that I would have to pay for the new battery and then would
> receive credit for the returned battery when it was tested.
>
> After sometime I called into your FW store and asked about the
> progress of the credit. I was told that there would be a charge of
> something like $90 to test the battery and I think I had to pay
the
> shipping charge back to the supplier to have it tested. This
> obviously irritated me and I told the person why don't I just
write
> this experience off to a company with a really bad return policy,
> but that I would be making a posting to the RV blog about my
> experience with the battery and your company. I was told to wait
and
> lets see what can be done.
>
> I did wait and nothing happened so I called back in and was told
> someone in the back had to test it and they had been really busy.
I
> have called in on multiple occasion inquiring on the progress,
> probably 5 or 6 times, and have been told we're getting close. Let
> me explain that the money for me is not the issue. The issue is I
> bought a battery from your company that apparently was defective
out
> of the box and now I'm getting a complete run around on receiving
> back credit for it. Boy if you think this type of customer service
> creates customer loyalty, you must have attended the wrong
business
> school.
>
> I believe I've been really patient on this but the patience
> issue has just about run it's coarse. I thought it only fair to
> inform you that if something isn't forthcoming on this issue very
> soon my intentions are to write a letter to the Better Business
> Bureau regarding your business practices on this type of issue.
> I intend to also post this same complaint and experience on the RV
> builders blog.
>
> Again trust me this is not about the monies, hell if I'm building
> a $250,000 airplane this is small potatoes, but rather that
> you appear to be jerking me around on a return that should have
been
> an exchange at the time of the return. I was told that it's the
> battery company that is the problem. Then I would suggest that
> you drop that line of product from your inventory if you are
unable
> to support it. If you went to a department store and bought an
item
> and then because it was defective took it back, would you accept
the
> explanation that I really can't give you credit until the supplier
> oks it? I think not. If you take on a product and sell it you have
> to take responsibility with the customer for that product and
*_you
> _*deal with the supplier or at least that's how I always ran my
> business. I never had a vendor that had that much control over me,
> it was actually the opposite. If they didn't want to support their
> product they were gone.
>
> Understand this is not a threat but rather I'm just letting you
know
> in advance what my intentions are so you are not surprised when it
> occurs.
>
> Wayne Edgerton
>
> *
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *http://for==================
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Incident |
lol....at least you can get a chuckle out of it!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@saintaviation.com>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 4:20:17 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Incident
I didn't realize Ecuador was a southern gulf state. You learn something
new every day. I should talk to the airlines about how much they are
charging to fly down there. :-)
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
Rick Sked wrote:
>
> And Ecuador... :)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 5:30:36 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Incident
>
>
> Go easy, I am sure he meant a southern gulf state. So testing my
> geography that would be Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisianan, and
> Texas. There are many ways to read something.
>
> Larry
> do not archive
>
> Max wrote:
>>
>> "Alabama/Mississippi or the like"???
>>
>> If you don't know where she purchased it, I would leave statements like
>> this
>> out of your comments. You insult the many careful, diligent builders in
>> those areas. I know of many great builders from "Alabama/Mississippi or
>> the
>> like."
>> That said, it would have been good if you had been diligent enough to
>> get
>> the exact location so no one else would be duped by a lousy builder.
>>
>> Max
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:26 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Incident
>>
>> "that had purchased the plane from Alabama/Mississippi or the like."
>>
>> Robin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Bad battery/bad experience |
John
I appreciate everyone hanging in there for info on the continued
modifications we are making to the RV10E. As for the fly off hours, I
would remind you of what our Grandmothers taught us, many hands make
light work. We had 5 pilots, a well written test plan, a better designed
engine, one squawk, and allot of Diet Coke and less than 4 days to
accomplish the task to meet our goal of flying to Osh Kosh. The only
mechanical, safety of flight squawk I had to deal with over the second
night was a loose break fitting, that was not readily apparent until we
had to due the several full power hold backs for prop balancing. This
quickly allowed us to see red fluid dripping from the bottom of the
plane, down a gear leg. What it ended up being was a loose NPT fitting
on the parking brake for the right side. Once this was tightened up then
that solved all mechanical stuff. We had and still have a couple of
software config issues, but they are secondary and I will work them out
as we go.
If you go to the Eggenfellner site and click on News you will see what
we have been up to, no jokes about me sweaty and covered in carbon fiber
@1am okay? We have designed a new carbon fiber gull wing cowl for the
Egg install. During initial testing we were getting okay cooling, but
like the Lycomings when the outside temp gets high we would step climb.
Jan knew he could overcome this with the proper design and a cowl flap.
With allot of research and trials Jan settled on the current design and
he did a mock up then took a plug from it and made the first production
cowl and flap. Flight testing in 100 degree heat and 85-90% humidity
revealed that we could climb full throttle to 8500 feet without having
to level off for a cool down. The cowl flap is manually controlled right
now, but it will be interfaced into the computer and will automatically
deploy and retract at certain temperatures when it is finalized.
As you know we had been testing my 10 normally aspirated, because we did
not want to put additional heat load until we were sure the cooling
system was good to go. Our preliminary "Non-verified or non-scientific"
numbers on the normally aspirated engine was 130 Knots at 10.5k with
6gph fuel flow, this was throttled back at around 1900 on the prop. For
the next several trips after that we flew at 2400 at 4k and were seeing
150 or so at 11gph. These are consistent numbers, with wheel pants but
without gear leg/ intersection fairings. If the predictions are right,
once we add the fairings, and paint to make it drag less, we should see
around 160 or slightly less, pretty good for normal aspiration and 200HP
Gary has finished the design of the new constant speed controller and we
have tested that and all is working well with it. Jan had to go out of
town for a bit and then he got back last Monday and they were doing the
plug for a Sportsman cowl.
Now that the cooling system/ cowl mods are working so well we are able
to move forward with the Turbo install. This was accomplished late last
week and over the weekend, with flight testing to start ASAP. I will be
back down in Florida later this week to see what the Turbo and higher
altitude flying will do for the performance numbers. My intentions are
to fly from Daytona to Boston and then over to Pittsburgh. Then over the
next week or so I will install the gear leg and intersection fairings,
and move the batteries. During the W&B it was determined we are
significantly lighter on the nose wheel than a Lycoming, and our overall
gross weight is lighter. Jan had planned for this, but I did not want to
believe it and I installed the dual batteries in the typical location. I
will need to move them forward of the Firewall, which will give me a net
54 pound swing. The dual batteries, tray, and contactors weigh 27
pounds, so take that weight away back aft and move it forward of the
spar, I get the shift I want. That is not to say we were out back aft,
but with no fuel, 4 adults and full luggage it was too close, and this
is an easy fix.
As of right now I could not be happier, the plane is performing as
expected with an alternative engine that is under development. We have
proven that even a normally aspirated 200hp engine will fly the RV10,
give great fuel burn rates and be very affordable, and still give
respectable performance. A brand new FWF package for under $25k, and the
ability to install it and be ready to run in under 10 hours is almost to
good to be true but that is what it my install has proven. Now hopefully
the turbo will give us the final push at altitude, but only time and
testing will tell!
Hopefully everyone is now up to date and as soon as I get the turbo
numbers, and up to Tim's place we can run both RV's next to each other
and give everyone a good impressions report for people to make their own
decisions on.
If anyone has any questions feel free to contact me and I would be happy
to spend time talking.
Dan
N289DT RV10E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
Okay Dan, It's been weeks and weeks since OSH '07 and almost months.
Your flyoff hours were done in record time as I remember. Now we are
all interested In the service ceiling, cruise at 8,500 MSL, climb rate
and fuel consumption numbers. Just how is it going or was there a
problem? This is not like you.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:24 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
The new color, brown, especially works well when wiping up spilled
resin!
Actually, my wife gets all of my vendor shirts, because they always
order small guy sizes and those of us that are Horizontally challenged
do not fit in those girly man sizes....
Dan
N289DT RV10E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
Those SteinAir T-Shirts make great grease rags when lubing bearings,
and doing oil changes. ;) (just had to take that dig at Stein
in hopes that he's monitoring the list today)
Actually, if you want a bit of comment to read on dealing with
dealers, some of it related to Stein, see the off-list reply
below that I sent to another builder inquiring about where
to buy servos. It has some thinking points anyway.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I think you're better calling most any vendor with
the pricing questions. It gives them time to get to know you
and what you may need for the future, and help you decide what
fits you best. Many dealers don't publish their bottom price
on the web, but they'll give them to you as you're building
your avionics packages. Also, Stark, Alex, and SteinAir
have all proven themselves to be great dealers to work
through. Stein especially has proven with that D2AV debacle
that he won't let any customers down. In that particular
case, the people that went through dealers fared better
than those who bought direct. One thing you'll find out
as you buy avionics...dealer relationships are important
to build. There needs to be an understanding of where you
want to go, and they can help you get there in the best
way for you. All of these businesses are very very small in
perspective to the businesses you buy other goods from.
Your business means a lot to them, and they will be trying
hard to satisfy your needs properly. Right now, as you
start buying your AP servos, it's a good time to keep in
mind that you're starting a relationship. Good service
is a two-way street too. When you buy from a dealer,
they'll be very happy to support you. Buy some things
from the mass sellers, like Aircraft Spruce (not that
they're bad), and then just see how good the support is
when you have problems of a technical nature. It doesn't
make a dealer happy when you buy something a discount
Joe's, but then you call them because you can't get it
to work. But, buy that same item from them, and they'll
bend over backwards to make sure you get it working
properly. The dollars you throw at them will come back
to you in the form of support, and considering that you're
not going to be just hauling your plane to the local
avionics guy and handing him a few hundred bucks for
troubleshooting all these little things, you're saving
a fortune by having a good relationship with your
dealer.
As far as Stein goes, I didn't know him from Adam when
I was first buying. I got my servos direct, because I
couldn't imagine that he'd sell them cheaper. And, when
I started looking at avionics, I resisted actually pretty
hard giving him business, because I thought that going
to a dealer was just going to cost me more money than
buying direct or going to ACS. It's actually funny that
I can remember being very cautious talking to him at
first. Turns out he's been invaluable as a dealer, and
turned into a good friend. So yeah, I'm biased for sure,
but the man earned it from me. I would have never
been so happy with my avionics had I gone down my
original path, and not had his guidance along the way.
So yep, call any of the dealers and get to know them,
and then give them your request for quote.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> The best in this business are Stein Air and Flightline Interiors. If
> every company could replicate their customer service the world would
be
> in harmony.
> You can tell when a supplier loves their job, their product, and the
> community they sell to. Even though Stein gives me crap about not
> wearing his t-shirts during prime photo opportunities at Oshkosh, he
> still is a great supplier.
> Van's does a good job too but you really get a personal experience
> like working with Stein and Abby.
> www.steinair.com <http://www.steinair.com>
> http://www.flightlineinteriors.com/
>
> Scott Schmidt
> scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: pascal <rv10builder@verizon.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 7:35:35 AM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
>
> Looks like you were more patient than I. BBB needs to be advised. This
> will speak louder for others who look at the Tex-Air company and see
> that people have complained than anything else.
>
> On a different perspective and this is related to tools. I had a a
> countersink that broke shortly after using it for the empennage and I
> wrote Brown tools asking if it was normal. Michael Brown himself took
> the e-mail, expressed concern, asked for a picture with the writing so
> he could track the source, than immediately shipped out 2 replacement
> countersinks (different source). There are great support teams out
there
> and I'm sure using this forum and Tim's site we can steer those behind
> us in the right direction. Tim has mentioned SteinAir as a resource
> others other companies.
> Pascal
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Wayne Edgerton <mailto:wayne.e@grandecom.net>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2007 6:18 AM
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Bad battery/bad experience
>
> I thought I would pass along to you an experience I've had with
> Tex-Air Parts in Fort Worth on a Concorde battery I purchased from
> them. At the beginning of the year I
> purchase a Concorde RG25CX for my plane from Tex-Air but didn't
use
> it until May when I went to start the plane. The battery was DOA
and
> I returned it for exchange. They wouldn't exchange it outright but
> rather I had to buy a new one and they said they would process the
> credit and send it to me. As of today I still haven't received the
> credit. Below is an e-mail I sent them on Aug 25th and I'm still
> waiting for the refund.
>
> I guess what's irritating me is what appears to be their
> unwillingness to refund my money for a bad battery they sold me.
I'm
> just posting this to give others heads up on where you purchase
your
> items and be sure they will stand behind what they sell.
>
> Here is the e-mail I sent them on Aug 25th.
>
> Also I've noticed that when starting the plane with this battery I
> get an initial hesitation, like it's having difficulty turning the
> engine over but when I try the second time it turns over fine. In
> hindsight I might look at the Odyssey PC925 rather than the
Concorde.
>
> Wayne Edgerton N602WT
> a little pissed off at Tex-Air
>
> I WILL FWD YOUR EMAIL TO GENE. HE IS THE ONE THAT KNOWS ABOUT
> YOUR BATTERY. SORRY YOU ARE HAVING SO MUCH TROUBLE.
>
> THANKS,
> DONNA
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Wayne Edgerton [mailto:wayne.e@grandecom.net]
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 25, 2007 6:20 AM
> *To:* texair@texair.com
> *Subject:* Return refund
>
> To return credit manager,
>
> On 5/18/07 I returned a Concorde battery RG25CX, see attachment. I
> purchased the battery from your company for the RV10 that I was
> building. When I was ready to start my engine on the RV10 it would
> not start it. The battery was obviously defective somehow right
out
> of the box. So I returned the battery to your store in Fort Worth
> and purchased another one, which has worked fine. I was told at
the
> time that I would have to pay for the new battery and then would
> receive credit for the returned battery when it was tested.
>
> After sometime I called into your FW store and asked about the
> progress of the credit. I was told that there would be a charge of
> something like $90 to test the battery and I think I had to pay
the
> shipping charge back to the supplier to have it tested. This
> obviously irritated me and I told the person why don't I just
write
> this experience off to a company with a really bad return policy,
> but that I would be making a posting to the RV blog about my
> experience with the battery and your company. I was told to wait
and
> lets see what can be done.
>
> I did wait and nothing happened so I called back in and was told
> someone in the back had to test it and they had been really busy.
I
> have called in on multiple occasion inquiring on the progress,
> probably 5 or 6 times, and have been told we're getting close. Let
> me explain that the money for me is not the issue. The issue is I
> bought a battery from your company that apparently was defective
out
> of the box and now I'm getting a complete run around on receiving
> back credit for it. Boy if you think this type of customer service
> creates customer loyalty, you must have attended the wrong
business
> school.
>
> I believe I've been really patient on this but the patience
> issue has just about run it's coarse. I thought it only fair to
> inform you that if something isn't forthcoming on this issue very
> soon my intentions are to write a letter to the Better Business
> Bureau regarding your business practices on this type of issue.
> I intend to also post this same complaint and experience on the RV
> builders blog.
>
> Again trust me this is not about the monies, hell if I'm building
> a $250,000 airplane this is small potatoes, but rather that
> you appear to be jerking me around on a return that should have
been
> an exchange at the time of the return. I was told that it's the
> battery company that is the problem. Then I would suggest that
> you drop that line of product from your inventory if you are
unable
> to support it. If you went to a department store and bought an
item
> and then because it was defective took it back, would you accept
the
> explanation that I really can't give you credit until the supplier
> oks it? I think not. If you take on a product and sell it you have
> to take responsibility with the customer for that product and
*_you
> _*deal with the supplier or at least that's how I always ran my
> business. I never had a vendor that had that much control over me,
> it was actually the opposite. If they didn't want to support their
> product they were gone.
>
> Understand this is not a threat but rather I'm just letting you
know
> in advance what my intentions are so you are not surprised when it
> occurs.
>
> Wayne Edgerton
>
> *
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *http://for==================
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fiberglass and antenna placement |
Deems, make sure you rip all the fiberglass and plastic covering off those certified
antennas too. I think the most useful tip I have got out of this string
so far is don't by anything from Commant except for maybe VHF and Transponder.
Not a surprise as when I have asked them questions in OSH they basically
gave me a hand out, promptly ignored me, and walked away when they had no one
else at their booth.
Part of the reason that people are seeing better reception from the Bluetooth
"bugs" is because they are using much newer technologies than the "certified"
antennas. Does that surprise anyone that the certified vendors are probably
not really doing anything to improve the antennas because of the hassle to get
them recertified. Anyone else remember the horrors stories of the older certified
units giving the RAIM messages, usually at the worse possible times?
At this point I will probably have no less than 3-4 satellite antennas performing
various functions. Some will be under the canopy and some may not. Depends
on how well they function and how important they are. Will I stick an antenna
for a Garmin x96 on the outside? Not a chance. But for primary navigation
WAAS GPS, potentially. But only after I test it out.
So while everyone is super concerned about if the 1/4" of fiberglass is attenuating
the GPS signal in the UHF L Band microwave range (in which most outdoor
antennas are protected by fiberglass or ABS plastic), has anyone actually looked
at exactly how far they are running those antenna leads? Depending on the
cable type you can probably figure a loss of 0.5db for every meter of cable.
Or how about if your Bluetooth, cell phone, oscillation of that laptop clock,
or RF noise from your various "uncertified" personal electronics are causing
any interference in your nav systems that could induce an error? So who wants
to volunteer to do a SNR study for GPS locations on the RV-10 along with the
factory coverings of said antennas?
Just for the record I have a pair of Commant CI-121 Comm antennas, a pair of
archer wingtip antennas for nav, and a Commant CI-105 transponder antenna.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fiberglass and antenna placement
OK, I just redesigned my antenna installation : atop a 5 foot tall
pylon, made of spaceage transpardium mounted in the exact center/top
point of the cabin cover, equipped with a gyro stabilized gimble that
ensures stability of the antenna in all unusual attitudes.
I'm out of here
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> Now you guys are getting with the program. Coax length, inline
> connectors, combiners, splitters and fiberglas thickness equate to db
> signal losses.
>
> John #600
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 3:48 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fiberglass and antenna placement
>
>
> OK Tim, I get it, GPS signals are weak. But the question as to how much
> attenuation is attributable to the Fiberglass is not addressed anywhere
> in your clips, and still remains. The specified/recommended Commant
> Antenna for the HeadsUP XM Weather receiver (used in Avidyne
> installations in certified Cirrus 's) comes configured with a gain of
> 30-34 db. The receiver itself is preset to expect a gain of 22db
> (+/-2db). The installation manual actually _recommends/requires_ some
> additional attenuation and provides a formula for figuring the amount
> available through several different types and lengths (feet & yards) of
>
> coax. Turns out that you need quite a bit of coax to get it down to the
>
> 22db range (17-58 ' depending on type of coax) Alternatively you may
> use a DC bias passing attenuator in line with the cable itself. (my
> choice). The only caution from the mfg about placement was to keep it
> away from transmitting antennas, (min 36's").
>
> If, as James suggests, the fiberglass (1/16 - 3/32") of the cowl is not
> an issue in signal loss, and there are no other blocking restrictions,
> then why criticize someone who wants to make the installation
> cosmetically attractive as well? the vast majority of the 396/496
> Garmins w/ weather are flying with glareshield mounted antennas with the
>
> same issues.
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> I've always taken antenna reception quality as THE #1 reason to choose
>> an antenna or mounting location....especially important if you're
>> shooting for the same quality as a "certified" installation. I never
>> understood why as experimental builders, who build planes that we
>>
> pride
>
>> as being built "better than factory", anyone would build absolutely
>> sub-standard to all of the advice by manufacturers regarding their
>> installation requirements....on purpose, no less. The fact that
>>
> someone
>
>> would bother to hem and haw about a WAAS GPS antenna no less, really
>> makes me wonder, as the amount of drag off a small wart of an antenna
>> is way less than if you were talking about a Nav or Com antenna, and
>>
> the
>
>> signal you're trying to receive is EXTREMELY faint in comparison.
>>
>> Here's something I dug up recently:
>>
>>
> http://www.homelandsecurity.org/bulletin/Dual%20Benefit/warner_gps_spoof
> ing.html
>
>> "The GPS signal strength measured at the surface of the Earth is about
>>
>
>
>> -160dBw (1 x 10-16 watts), which is roughly equivalent to viewing a
>> 25-watt light bulb from a distance of 10,000 miles. This weak signal
>> can easily be blocked by destroying or shielding the GPS receiver's
>> antenna. The GPS signal can also be effectively jammed by a signal of
>> a similar frequency but greater strength. "
>>
>> So then think about the many electrical noise causing things in an
>> airplane....probably one of the loudest of which would be the spark
>> plugs and ignition system. And then to choose to actually mount
>> the antennas CLOSER to those items? I mean, I've seen TV's get
>> scrambled signals when a snowmobile drove by the house years
>> ago....not that the plane is going to be as poor, but we're
>> *really* talking some tiny electrical signals with GPS...and sorry,
>>
> but
>
>> if someone even thinks they're going to pass by on flying ILS and VOR
>> approaches and instead favor trusting a WAAS approach, why sacrifice?
>> If they're going to sacrifice that, then why bother to look at the
>> actual LPV-spec GPS units in the first place....just fly them with
>> an autopilot or EFIS driven by a 396. (and no, I'm not REALLY
>> endorsing that thinking)
>>
>>
>> http://www.nap.edu/html/embedded_everywhere/ch2_b8.html
>> "What makes GPS reception difficult is that radio frequency (RF)
>> signals from the satellites are very weak. Special coding is used to
>> allow receivers to detect these weak signals, but even with coding,
>> GPS receivers generally work only if they have a direct line of sight
>> to the satellites. Performance inside buildings or in an area covered
>> by foliage is generally quite poor"
>>
>> http://www.wowinfo.com/gps/gps/chapter2n3.htm
>> "This is an extremely low-powered system-so low-powered, in fact, that
>>
>
>
>> the signal is really buried in the natural background radio noise. The
>>
>
>
>> receiver recovers this weak signal from the satellites by using
>> spread-spectrum communication technology, a very tricky concept in
>> communication theory that works by means of pseudo-random codes."
>>
>> http://www.dot.nd.gov/manuals/surveymanual/gps-operations.pdf
>> "You'd think that with all of these radio waves raining down on us
>> from dozens of satellites in space
>> we'd all glow in the dark. Actually, the strength of the GPS signal is
>>
>
>
>> very small, equivalent to the tail
>> light of a car seen from 2,500 kilometers away-halfway across the
>> U.S.! Weaker, in fact, than the
>> ordinary background radio noise that's all around us all of the time."
>>
>>
>> So then thinking about laying it underneath fiberglass, my thought is:
>> "Well, if fiberglass is transparent to GPS, then how many layers are
>> transparent to the GPS. Can you put it under 1/16", 1/8", 1", 5"?
>> At what point do you decide you've hidden the GPS from it enough?"
>>
>> And, if it's under a cowl, or at some other point not mounted
>> horizontally with a full view of the sky in all directions, then
>> which of the available satellites that are now unavailable are you
>> happy to just toss aside from shadowing due to poor mounting? So
>> some of them aren't worth seeing.
>>
>> I understand the love of building a cosmetically pleasing airplane,
>>
> but
>
>> to sacrifice life-saving avionics signals really makes me wonder. And
>> nothing against Dan Checkoway, but it's amazing how one person's good
>> experience with a poor mounting choice can spread to such a universal
>> acceptance of the idea. It might be better to bounce mounting
>> and location questions off the antenna makers and companies like
>>
> Garmin
>
>> and see how far they're willing to stick their neck out with an
>>
> answer.
>
>> If it were harmless, they'd have no reason to avoid giving the advice.
>> I've had many phone calls to Comant and questions to other antenna
>> makers throughout the build, which in the end mostly just led me to
>> try to be as "conventional" as possible to attempt the same
>> reliability as the certified planes could have.
>>
>> Now, if someone was building a VFR only airplane, I'd say "heck yeah,
>> may as well give it a try".
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>>
>>
>>
>> Deems Davis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John W. Cox wrote:
>>>
>>> . Fiberglass is not transparent
>>> to RF it creates a false positive and measurable signal loss. It is
>>> only translucent with a clearly diminished performance. It also
>>>
> requires
>
>>> your output amp to work significantly harder leading to earlier
>>> potential failure and often a loss of valuable communication when you
>>> need it most - rain fade, cloud obscuration and turbulence
>>>
>>> John, can you elaborate or point me to a reference source. I have
>>> always heard that fiberglass is transparent wrt antennas. If there is
>>>
>
>
>>> a loss due to the fiberglass how big of a loss is it? and what is a
>>> 'false positive'? Does the fiberglass affect all spectrums equally?
>>> Both of the antennas in my case are receive only and are satellite
>>> based systems.
>>>
>>> Deems Davis # 406
>>> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
>>> http://deemsrv10.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS! |
Now here is an off the wall thought, anyone give any consideration to usi
ng one of the leak sealant products in their tubes? Maybe something like S
lime? Pro's/Con's? Might be just the thing to reduce air loss and the dif
ference between being stuck on a backwoods strip or making it home. Though
ts from the peanut gallery? J
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS!
Just my experience: 3 Desser leakguards. Mains are great, add air maybe eve
ry 6 months. Nose tube...no such ruck. Leaks worse than the standard tube p
reviously there..have to add air every month.
On 9/16/07, Chris Johnston <CJohnston@popsound.com<mailto:CJohnston@popsoun
d.com>> wrote:
yay! while we're arguing about stuff... could you guys argue about this fo
r me so i can decide? i'm trying to decide on some less leaky inner tubes,
and i think it's between Desser's "leak guard", and Michelin's "airstop".
what say you all? and is it reasonably self-explanatory to order the righ
t size inner tube? is it possible for me to screw it up?
cj
#40410
fuse/finishing
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net<http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS! |
Some of the benefits to using Nitrogen is it's usually much dryer than compressed
air and a bit more stable through the temperature ranges we see. Also, Oxygen
is corrosive to rubber where Nitrogen is inert. If you believe the guys
at your local auto shop, they may tell you that you will get another 1/2 mile
to the gallon but I call horsepucky.
If you really want to use it almost every tire shop now will fill tires with
Nitrogen so you can just stop by one and have them fill them. You could also
get a small tank and regulator from your local welding gas supply and keep it
around the shop/hanger.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rtitsworth
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS!
Do inter tubes hold really Nitrogen better than air??? Air is composed of
~80% Nitrogen. So it would seem that if it is the "other" components of air
(mostly O2) that leak out, then the tube would still be ~80% full of
Nitrogen - and more so on successive re-fills. After the first subsequent
refill the air would be ~95% Nitrogen. After the second refill it would be
~99% Nitrogen.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- Subject:
RE: RV10-List: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS!
Just fill it with nitrogen and forget about it.
Bob K
Message 12
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Other than the "unsightly wart" appearance, how much drag is there in a
GPS antennae on the top back of the canopy? Is there a measurable
speed difference?
Fred Williams
40515
Message 13
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| Subject: | Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or ground |
wire termination
You know the funny thing about fiberglass and receivers? Just about
every antenna is enclosed in one. All radomes are fiberglass because of
their weight, they even use the same honey comb we have in the cowls,
and the size of the signal a radar is receiving is much smaller than the
GPS signal we are talking about. What is important is the paint or
surface protection that goes on. It is fine and expected for an antenna
to be placed under fiberglass as it is RF transparent, what is not
transparent is any kind of contamination, IE moisture in the resin,
moisture in the honey comb, metal flake or contaminants in the paint or
surface protection. Drive around an airport, military base, weather
station etc, all of those white ball looking things are antenna
enclosures, and guess what they are fiberglass!
Every antenna I worked on in the military was enclosed in a fiberglass
housing, VHF, UHF, HF and yes even our GPS antenna's were in housings to
prevent corrosion from salt spray. What we had to be careful of was
water impregnation, and not painting the enclosures with unapproved
paint.
Clean, pure Fiberglass and resin does nothing to attenuate RF. Poor
installation, poor/ unclean mixing of chemicals, painting and more
importantly structure masking impact antenna performance...
Dan
N289DT RV10E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or
ground wire termination
I understand you guys (Deems, Zack and Rick) are having an "offline
party discussion" but can you share the photos of Rick's OSH aircraft
for everyone? The suspense can be fatal.
The comment was made yesterday about antenna performance so someone was
seeing the direction I was pointed. Which was well placed because many
finished RV-10s should be running with diminished avionics performance
and just don't know better. I think Tim has now seen the light (or was
that the color) with his WSI 300 antenna. Fiberglass is not transparent
to RF it creates a false positive and measurable signal loss. It is
only translucent with a clearly diminished performance. It also requires
your output amp to work significantly harder leading to earlier
potential failure and often a loss of valuable communication when you
need it most - rain fade, cloud obscuration and turbulence.
"I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw". Where
are the avionics guys when we need some real illumination on the subject
of placement and installation technique? You guys should try talking to
L3 on traffic reporting if you are missing the direction.
John C.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or
ground wire termination
Deems,
You have a pic of that in your RV-10, OSH pics...dry version. Wish we
didn't have a plane to catch that day. I could have spent hours combing
over Rick's RV.
Rick S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deems Davis" <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:13:59 PM (GMT-0800)
America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or
ground wire termination
Zack thanks for the pic of Ricks install. Larry, I think it's going to
be easier to do the firewall shelf. I just spent 60 minutes in the
garage and bent up some .032" and riveted it into a decent 'shelf'. I've
already got 4 bolts that hold the voltage regulators to the inside of
the firewall that I'll use to attach this to. One thing I didn't account
for is the slight forward cant of the upper part of the firewall so
there is a bit of a tilt to the shelf that I'll have to take out with
some shims/standoffs. The cable/antenna runs for the cabin top install
are problematic for me.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
Larry Rosen wrote:
>
> Have you considered mounting them under the cabin top, inside the
> Accuracy Avionics overhead console? I know there are two layers of
> fiberglass and a core, but that shouldn't interfere with the signals.
> (in my non expert opinion). Any thoughts?
>
> Larry Rosen
>
> Deems Davis wrote:
>>
>> With all this talk about antennas, I've got a question for the group.
>> I need to mount a XM weather antenna and an additional GPS antenna. I
>> already have the primary GPS mounted on the top of the tail cone aft
>> of the cabin top intersection. I am not keen on placing them on the
>> cabin top, primarily for aesthetics, so I'm planning on mounting them
>> side by side on a shelf on the firewall. This will make installation
>> and the cabling easier. The antennas don't require a ground plane as
>> best as I can tell. Mounting them in this location will make for a
>> shorter cable run and an easier installation. Anybody gone this
>> route? Feedback? I think I recall that Checkoway mounted one or more
>> antennas in this manner.
>>
>> Deems Davis # 406
>> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
>> http://deemsrv10.com/
>>> *
>>>
>>> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Incident |
Shouldn't an incident such as this be reported on the NTSB? =0AIt sounds l
ike this occured at least 3-4 weeks ago. =0A =0AI also saw this aircraft a
t Oshkosh. Makes me feel bad when people spend 1500 hours building and don
't put in the last 50-150 hours to get the proper fit/finish. But that is
the joy of experimental aircraft. Rutan never did a great job finishing hi
s planes either. I don't know if any of them had interiors and you could a
lways see through the paint. But his mission required great weight savings
. =0A=0AOff subject: Here is a link to the trailer for "Thunder over Reno"
. I've heard from people who watched it last week that it had a horrible s
tory with below average acting. The flying shots sounded cool. I just watc
hed the trailer and could tell the acting was not Harrison Ford quality. I
'll go see it though.=0Ahttp://www.thunderoverreno.com/index2.html=0A=0ASco
tt Schmidt=0Ascottmschmidt@yahoo.com=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----
=0AFrom: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASent: S
unday, September 16, 2007 11:32:19 AM=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Incid
=0AI'll always remember looking at that plane unpainted at OSH, with=0Aa wi
re bundle running from the panel to the tunnel near the brake=0Alines, with
the wires clearly laying on the sheet metal edge=0Aof the tunnel cover....
with no wire chafing protection at all.=0AThat was just the start of it, bu
t I just kind of figured some=0Aday it would be an electrical fire that we'
d hear about. Especially=0Asince very little of the sheet metal edging had
much deburring done=0Ato it.=0A=0AOn the up side, there are many very fine
examples of craftsmanship=0Ato look at these days, and many builders are t
aking the time to=0Amake them far better than any production plane.=0A=0ATi
m Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0ARobin Marks wrote:
=0A> Interesting...=0A> I know nothing about the incident but I actuall
y know something=0A> about this plane.=0A> While at my home airport (SB
P) in California I saw an RV-10=0A> parked in our transient restaurant park
ing. I was very excited to see=0A> one in person and it looked kinda nice f
rom a distance. As I got closer=0A> my opinion changed considerably. First
the good news... The wheel pants,=0A> gear legs and the panel were very nic
e. Now the rest of the story...=0A> The fit & finish was about the wors
t I had ever seen on an RV.=0A> The fit around the cowl was horrendous, wit
h several different type=0A> screws used with different type washers and th
e cowl screws were not in=0A> a row, some were offset high and low. The bag
gage door was not aligned=0A> well and there was filler between some metal
pieces that was only=0A> partially filled and partially left "mounded" then
painted over. It=0A> looked awful!. The wing tips were not cut back to mat
ch the trailing=0A> edge of the ailerons. (I have not started that part of
the build yet but=0A> I understand they should line up).=0A> By far the
worst part and something I thought was a real danger=0A> were the back sid
es of the fiberglass tips to the horizontal stabilizer.=0A> They were left
hollow, rough cut and very flexible. I was actually=0A> horrified that this
portion of the build was not completed. I could not=0A> imagine that that
was airworthy. As you can guess the fit of the doors=0A> was not acceptable
to me but they were not that far off. And of course=0A> there was complete
cracking around each window. I did end up taking some=0A> detailed photos
of the plane and keep them filed in my "RV Pictures"=0A> folder under the f
ile name "Ugly RV-10." I don't intend to be cruel but=0A> the attention to
detail was completely lacking and all that hard work of=0A> construction wa
s wasted by not spending 200-400 more hours on doing=0A> things right. One
of my first thoughts was if the appearance items look=0A> this bad I wonder
what it's like in places you don't easily see. =0A> As I was finishing
my photo shoot the owner came out from the=0A> restaurant and we had the o
pportunity to chat. She was an older lady=0A> (~65) that had purchased the
plane from Alabama/Mississippi or the like.=0A> She was based at Santa Paul
a Airport (SZP) about 70 miles south of me.=0A> That day she was giving a h
angar neighbor acquaintance of mine a ride to=0A> SZP to pick up his beauti
ful Cessna 170 from service. I remember=0A> thinking to myself... well at l
east the plane has two pilots onboard in=0A> case there is an "issue."=0A>
Please note I do not wish to be malicious but the plane had=0A> obvious
flaws in craftsmanship. Like most incidents it's usually pilot=0A> problem
s before plane problems.=0A> Attached are some photos from the visit.
=0A> =0A> Robin=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> ----------------------------------------
--------------------------------=0A> =0A> =0A> ----------------------------
--------------------------------------------=0A> =0A> =0A> ----------------
--------------------------------------------------------=0A> =0A> =0A> ----
--------------------------------------------------------------------=0A>
=0A> =0A> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------=0A> =0A> =0A> -----------------------------------------------------
-------------------=0A> =0A> =0A> -----------------------------------------
-------------------------------=0A> =0A> =0A> -----------------------------
===============
Message 15
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>From an archive I found a while back...
I painted my RV8 white,in stages, as I built the parts, then after final assembly, had vinyl stripes applied by Eric Mann, of Freedom Signs and Graphics (775 771-3937). I designed a paint scheme, e-mailed it Eric, who had actual RV8 dimensions in his program. He fine tuned the scheme, and sent me a rendering for approval. When I flew the RV8 to Reno, he applied the prepared stripes in about an hour. The cost was only a couple hundred bucks, and you can do it yourself. Go to my website and see it http://members.cox.net/cjhukill/ The stripes have been on about 5 years now, and look as good as the day they installed.
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
Message 16
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That's the money question and the answer is probably well less than a knot depending
on where it goes. It's more likely to cause problems from buildup in
icing conditions or p-static signal degradation than have any real impact to performance.
I think most people are more interested in the clean lines that an
antenna free surface provides.
Dan had the most important point that I completely forgot to mention. Paint
type and water are the two biggest things that will attenuate a signal, especially
at those frequencies. You guys with satellite TV, how good does that work
when you get the big buildups outside. The fast glass guys bury everything
they can inside the fiberglass shell. How many antennas do you see sticking out
of a LongEZ, Cozy, or similar plans built glass? Granted I probably would
be more leery using one of those in hard IFR. Ever see what happens to glass
aircraft without protection when hit by lightning, not pretty but I digress.
Do the research, look at your mission profile, read all the facts and comments,
and make your own decisions. The data exist for and against such configurations.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Williams, M.D.
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: GPS antennae
Other than the "unsightly wart" appearance, how much drag is there in a
GPS antennae on the top back of the canopy? Is there a measurable
speed difference?
Fred Williams
40515
Message 17
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That's the problem with build for hire. Profit outweighs pride in workmans
hip.
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Incident
Shouldn't an incident such as this be reported on the NTSB?
It sounds like this occured at least 3-4 weeks ago.
I also saw this aircraft at Oshkosh. Makes me feel bad when people spend 1
500 hours building and don't put in the last 50-150 hours to get the proper
fit/finish. But that is the joy of experimental aircraft. Rutan never di
d a great job finishing his planes either. I don't know if any of them had
interiors and you could always see through the paint. But his mission req
uired great weight savings.
Off subject: Here is a link to the trailer for "Thunder over Reno". I've h
eard from people who watched it last week that it had a horrible story with
below average acting. The flying shots sounded cool. I just watched the t
railer and could tell the acting was not Harrison Ford quality. I'll go se
e it though.
http://www.thunderoverreno.com/index2.html
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:32:19 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Incident
I'll always remember looking at that plane unpainted at OSH, with
a wire bundle running from the panel to the tunnel near the brake
lines, with the wires clearly laying on the sheet metal edge
of the tunnel cover....with no wire chafing protection at all.
That was just the start of it, but I just kind of figured some
day it would be an electrical fire that we'd hear about. Especially
since very little of the sheet metal edging had much deburring done
to it.
On the up side, there are many very fine examples of craftsmanship
to look at these days, and many builders are taking the time to
make them far better than any production plane.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Robin Marks wrote:
> Interesting...
> I know nothing about the incident but I actually know something
> about this plane.
> While at my home airport (SBP) in California I saw an RV-10
> parked in our transient restaurant parking. I was very excited to see
> one in person and it looked kinda nice from a distance. As I got closer
> my opinion changed considerably. First the good news... The wheel pants,
> gear legs and the panel were very nice. Now the rest of the story...
> The fit & finish was about the worst I had ever seen on an RV.
> The fit around the cowl was horrendous, with several different type
> screws used with different type washers and the cowl screws were not in
> a row, some were offset high and low. The baggage door was not aligned
> well and there was filler between some metal pieces that was only
> partially filled and partially left "mounded" then painted over. It
> looked awful!. The wing tips were not cut back to match the trailing
> edge of the ailerons. (I have not started that part of the build yet but
> I understand they should line up).
> By far the worst part and something I thought was a real danger
> were the back sides of the fiberglass tips to the horizontal stabilizer.
> They were left hollow, rough cut and very flexible. I was actually
> horrified that this portion of the build was not completed. I could not
> imagine that that was airworthy. As you can guess the fit of the doors
> was not acceptable to me but they were not that far off. And of course
> there was complete cracking around each window. I did end up taking some
> detailed photos of the plane and keep them filed in my "RV Pictures"
> folder under the file name "Ugly RV-10." I don't intend to be cruel but
> the attention to detail was completely lacking and all that hard work of
> construction was wasted by not spending 200-400 more hours on doing
> things right. One of my first thoughts was if the appearance items look
> this bad I wonder what it's like in places you don't easily see.
> As I was finishing my photo shoot the owner came out from the
> restaurant and we had the opportunity to chat. She was an older lady
> (~65) that had purchased the plane from Alabama/Mississippi or the like.
> She was based at Santa Paula Airport (SZP) about 70 miles south of me.
> That day she was giving a hangar neighbor acquaintance of mine a ride to
> SZP to pick up his beautiful Cessna 170 from service. I remember
> thinking to myself... well at least the plane has two pilots onboard in
> case there is an "issue."
> Please note I do not wish to be malicious but the plane had
> obvious flaws in craftsmanship. Like most incidents it's usually pilot
> problems before plane problems.
> Attached are some photos from the visit.
>
> Robin
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<
B - The RV10-List Email Forum -
or?RV10-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List<
sp; - NEW MATRONICS WE==
Message 18
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>From an archive I found a while back...
I painted my RV8 white,in stages, as I built the parts, then after final assembly, had vinyl stripes applied by Eric Mann, of Freedom Signs and Graphics (775 771-3937). I designed a paint scheme, e-mailed it Eric, who had actual RV8 dimensions in his program. He fine tuned the scheme, and sent me a rendering for approval. When I flew the RV8 to Reno, he applied the prepared stripes in about an hour. The cost was only a couple hundred bucks, and you can do it yourself. Go to my website and see it http://members.cox.net/cjhukill/ The stripes have been on about 5 years now, and look as good as the day they installed.
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: glare shield paint |
Bob... Which item on poly website are you referring to?
Thanks,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134898#134898
Message 20
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| Subject: | Fiberglass and antenna placement |
Don't forget the five degree forward cant to compensate for your
additional forward airspeed with the BPE Cold Air/Davis Induction
System.
Thanks for playing.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fiberglass and antenna placement
OK, I just redesigned my antenna installation : atop a 5 foot tall
pylon, made of spaceage transpardium mounted in the exact center/top
point of the cabin cover, equipped with a gyro stabilized gimble that
ensures stability of the antenna in all unusual attitudes.
I'm out of here
John W. Cox wrote:
<johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
> Now you guys are getting with the program. Coax length, inline
> connectors, combiners, splitters and fiberglas thickness equate to db
> signal losses.
>
> John #600
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 3:48 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fiberglass and antenna placement
>
>
> OK Tim, I get it, GPS signals are weak. But the question as to how
much
> attenuation is attributable to the Fiberglass is not addressed
anywhere
> in your clips, and still remains. The specified/recommended Commant
> Antenna for the HeadsUP XM Weather receiver (used in Avidyne
> installations in certified Cirrus 's) comes configured with a gain of
> 30-34 db. The receiver itself is preset to expect a gain of 22db
> (+/-2db). The installation manual actually _recommends/requires_ some
> additional attenuation and provides a formula for figuring the amount
> available through several different types and lengths (feet & yards)
of
>
> coax. Turns out that you need quite a bit of coax to get it down to
the
>
> 22db range (17-58 ' depending on type of coax) Alternatively you may
> use a DC bias passing attenuator in line with the cable itself. (my
> choice). The only caution from the mfg about placement was to keep it
> away from transmitting antennas, (min 36's").
>
> If, as James suggests, the fiberglass (1/16 - 3/32") of the cowl is
not
> an issue in signal loss, and there are no other blocking restrictions,
> then why criticize someone who wants to make the installation
> cosmetically attractive as well? the vast majority of the 396/496
> Garmins w/ weather are flying with glareshield mounted antennas with
the
>
> same issues.
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> I've always taken antenna reception quality as THE #1 reason to
choose
>> an antenna or mounting location....especially important if you're
>> shooting for the same quality as a "certified" installation. I never
>> understood why as experimental builders, who build planes that we
>>
> pride
>
>> as being built "better than factory", anyone would build absolutely
>> sub-standard to all of the advice by manufacturers regarding their
>> installation requirements....on purpose, no less. The fact that
>>
> someone
>
>> would bother to hem and haw about a WAAS GPS antenna no less, really
>> makes me wonder, as the amount of drag off a small wart of an antenna
>> is way less than if you were talking about a Nav or Com antenna, and
>>
> the
>
>> signal you're trying to receive is EXTREMELY faint in comparison.
>>
>> Here's something I dug up recently:
>>
>>
>
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/bulletin/Dual%20Benefit/warner_gps_spoof
> ing.html
>
>> "The GPS signal strength measured at the surface of the Earth is
about
>>
>
>
>> -160dBw (1 x 10-16 watts), which is roughly equivalent to viewing a
>> 25-watt light bulb from a distance of 10,000 miles. This weak signal
>> can easily be blocked by destroying or shielding the GPS receiver's
>> antenna. The GPS signal can also be effectively jammed by a signal of
>> a similar frequency but greater strength. "
>>
>> So then think about the many electrical noise causing things in an
>> airplane....probably one of the loudest of which would be the spark
>> plugs and ignition system. And then to choose to actually mount
>> the antennas CLOSER to those items? I mean, I've seen TV's get
>> scrambled signals when a snowmobile drove by the house years
>> ago....not that the plane is going to be as poor, but we're
>> *really* talking some tiny electrical signals with GPS...and sorry,
>>
> but
>
>> if someone even thinks they're going to pass by on flying ILS and VOR
>> approaches and instead favor trusting a WAAS approach, why sacrifice?
>> If they're going to sacrifice that, then why bother to look at the
>> actual LPV-spec GPS units in the first place....just fly them with
>> an autopilot or EFIS driven by a 396. (and no, I'm not REALLY
>> endorsing that thinking)
>>
>>
>> http://www.nap.edu/html/embedded_everywhere/ch2_b8.html
>> "What makes GPS reception difficult is that radio frequency (RF)
>> signals from the satellites are very weak. Special coding is used to
>> allow receivers to detect these weak signals, but even with coding,
>> GPS receivers generally work only if they have a direct line of sight
>> to the satellites. Performance inside buildings or in an area covered
>> by foliage is generally quite poor"
>>
>> http://www.wowinfo.com/gps/gps/chapter2n3.htm
>> "This is an extremely low-powered system-so low-powered, in fact,
that
>>
>
>
>> the signal is really buried in the natural background radio noise.
The
>>
>
>
>> receiver recovers this weak signal from the satellites by using
>> spread-spectrum communication technology, a very tricky concept in
>> communication theory that works by means of pseudo-random codes."
>>
>> http://www.dot.nd.gov/manuals/surveymanual/gps-operations.pdf
>> "You'd think that with all of these radio waves raining down on us
>> from dozens of satellites in space
>> we'd all glow in the dark. Actually, the strength of the GPS signal
is
>>
>
>
>> very small, equivalent to the tail
>> light of a car seen from 2,500 kilometers away-halfway across the
>> U.S.! Weaker, in fact, than the
>> ordinary background radio noise that's all around us all of the
time."
>>
>>
>> So then thinking about laying it underneath fiberglass, my thought
is:
>> "Well, if fiberglass is transparent to GPS, then how many layers are
>> transparent to the GPS. Can you put it under 1/16", 1/8", 1", 5"?
>> At what point do you decide you've hidden the GPS from it enough?"
>>
>> And, if it's under a cowl, or at some other point not mounted
>> horizontally with a full view of the sky in all directions, then
>> which of the available satellites that are now unavailable are you
>> happy to just toss aside from shadowing due to poor mounting? So
>> some of them aren't worth seeing.
>>
>> I understand the love of building a cosmetically pleasing airplane,
>>
> but
>
>> to sacrifice life-saving avionics signals really makes me wonder.
And
>> nothing against Dan Checkoway, but it's amazing how one person's good
>> experience with a poor mounting choice can spread to such a universal
>> acceptance of the idea. It might be better to bounce mounting
>> and location questions off the antenna makers and companies like
>>
> Garmin
>
>> and see how far they're willing to stick their neck out with an
>>
> answer.
>
>> If it were harmless, they'd have no reason to avoid giving the
advice.
>> I've had many phone calls to Comant and questions to other antenna
>> makers throughout the build, which in the end mostly just led me to
>> try to be as "conventional" as possible to attempt the same
>> reliability as the certified planes could have.
>>
>> Now, if someone was building a VFR only airplane, I'd say "heck yeah,
>> may as well give it a try".
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>>
>>
>>
>> Deems Davis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John W. Cox wrote:
>>>
>>> . Fiberglass is not transparent
>>> to RF it creates a false positive and measurable signal loss. It is
>>> only translucent with a clearly diminished performance. It also
>>>
> requires
>
>>> your output amp to work significantly harder leading to earlier
>>> potential failure and often a loss of valuable communication when
you
>>> need it most - rain fade, cloud obscuration and turbulence
>>>
>>> John, can you elaborate or point me to a reference source. I have
>>> always heard that fiberglass is transparent wrt antennas. If there
is
>>>
>
>
>>> a loss due to the fiberglass how big of a loss is it? and what is a
>>> 'false positive'? Does the fiberglass affect all spectrums equally?
>>> Both of the antennas in my case are receive only and are satellite
>>> based systems.
>>>
>>> Deems Davis # 406
>>> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
>>> http://deemsrv10.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 21
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Mathematically measurable using the formula found in the AC43.13.
Insignificant in the grand scheme of ROP/LOP operations.
John W. Cox 40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
Williams, M.D.
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 8:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: GPS antennae
<drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
Other than the "unsightly wart" appearance, how much drag is there in a
GPS antennae on the top back of the canopy? Is there a measurable
speed difference?
Fred Williams
40515
Message 22
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Uhh...
I understand the point you're making but I have to point out that pride in
workmanship and profit are not exclusive.
We've all seen some pretty poorly built amateur-only projects.
The one doing the hiring has final control over workmanship, via the
checkbook if nothing else. I imagine the buyer got what she wanted. What
her expectations were we'll probably never know.
do not archive
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
40394 (mine), started the engine last weekend, should be flying before
October.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Incident
That's the problem with build for hire. Profit outweighs pride in
workmanship.
Do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass and antenna placement |
And the drag coefficent associated with the forward cant must also be considered
as well as gyroscopic precession due to the drag in the gimble, unless your
going with magnetic suspension of the ring then your precession may not be significant
given the fuel onboard and the total time from alignemnt to shut down
after stopping to pee. lol....
Rick S.
40185
please do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:15:20 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fiberglass and antenna placement
Don't forget the five degree forward cant to compensate for your
additional forward airspeed with the BPE Cold Air/Davis Induction
System.
Thanks for playing.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fiberglass and antenna placement
OK, I just redesigned my antenna installation : atop a 5 foot tall
pylon, made of spaceage transpardium mounted in the exact center/top
point of the cabin cover, equipped with a gyro stabilized gimble that
ensures stability of the antenna in all unusual attitudes.
I'm out of here
John W. Cox wrote:
<johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
> Now you guys are getting with the program. Coax length, inline
> connectors, combiners, splitters and fiberglas thickness equate to db
> signal losses.
>
> John #600
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 3:48 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fiberglass and antenna placement
>
>
> OK Tim, I get it, GPS signals are weak. But the question as to how
much
> attenuation is attributable to the Fiberglass is not addressed
anywhere
> in your clips, and still remains. The specified/recommended Commant
> Antenna for the HeadsUP XM Weather receiver (used in Avidyne
> installations in certified Cirrus 's) comes configured with a gain of
> 30-34 db. The receiver itself is preset to expect a gain of 22db
> (+/-2db). The installation manual actually _recommends/requires_ some
> additional attenuation and provides a formula for figuring the amount
> available through several different types and lengths (feet & yards)
of
>
> coax. Turns out that you need quite a bit of coax to get it down to
the
>
> 22db range (17-58 ' depending on type of coax) Alternatively you may
> use a DC bias passing attenuator in line with the cable itself. (my
> choice). The only caution from the mfg about placement was to keep it
> away from transmitting antennas, (min 36's").
>
> If, as James suggests, the fiberglass (1/16 - 3/32") of the cowl is
not
> an issue in signal loss, and there are no other blocking restrictions,
> then why criticize someone who wants to make the installation
> cosmetically attractive as well? the vast majority of the 396/496
> Garmins w/ weather are flying with glareshield mounted antennas with
the
>
> same issues.
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> I've always taken antenna reception quality as THE #1 reason to
choose
>> an antenna or mounting location....especially important if you're
>> shooting for the same quality as a "certified" installation. I never
>> understood why as experimental builders, who build planes that we
>>
> pride
>
>> as being built "better than factory", anyone would build absolutely
>> sub-standard to all of the advice by manufacturers regarding their
>> installation requirements....on purpose, no less. The fact that
>>
> someone
>
>> would bother to hem and haw about a WAAS GPS antenna no less, really
>> makes me wonder, as the amount of drag off a small wart of an antenna
>> is way less than if you were talking about a Nav or Com antenna, and
>>
> the
>
>> signal you're trying to receive is EXTREMELY faint in comparison.
>>
>> Here's something I dug up recently:
>>
>>
>
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/bulletin/Dual%20Benefit/warner_gps_spoof
> ing.html
>
>> "The GPS signal strength measured at the surface of the Earth is
about
>>
>
>
>> -160dBw (1 x 10-16 watts), which is roughly equivalent to viewing a
>> 25-watt light bulb from a distance of 10,000 miles. This weak signal
>> can easily be blocked by destroying or shielding the GPS receiver's
>> antenna. The GPS signal can also be effectively jammed by a signal of
>> a similar frequency but greater strength. "
>>
>> So then think about the many electrical noise causing things in an
>> airplane....probably one of the loudest of which would be the spark
>> plugs and ignition system. And then to choose to actually mount
>> the antennas CLOSER to those items? I mean, I've seen TV's get
>> scrambled signals when a snowmobile drove by the house years
>> ago....not that the plane is going to be as poor, but we're
>> *really* talking some tiny electrical signals with GPS...and sorry,
>>
> but
>
>> if someone even thinks they're going to pass by on flying ILS and VOR
>> approaches and instead favor trusting a WAAS approach, why sacrifice?
>> If they're going to sacrifice that, then why bother to look at the
>> actual LPV-spec GPS units in the first place....just fly them with
>> an autopilot or EFIS driven by a 396. (and no, I'm not REALLY
>> endorsing that thinking)
>>
>>
>> http://www.nap.edu/html/embedded_everywhere/ch2_b8.html
>> "What makes GPS reception difficult is that radio frequency (RF)
>> signals from the satellites are very weak. Special coding is used to
>> allow receivers to detect these weak signals, but even with coding,
>> GPS receivers generally work only if they have a direct line of sight
>> to the satellites. Performance inside buildings or in an area covered
>> by foliage is generally quite poor"
>>
>> http://www.wowinfo.com/gps/gps/chapter2n3.htm
>> "This is an extremely low-powered system-so low-powered, in fact,
that
>>
>
>
>> the signal is really buried in the natural background radio noise.
The
>>
>
>
>> receiver recovers this weak signal from the satellites by using
>> spread-spectrum communication technology, a very tricky concept in
>> communication theory that works by means of pseudo-random codes."
>>
>> http://www.dot.nd.gov/manuals/surveymanual/gps-operations.pdf
>> "You'd think that with all of these radio waves raining down on us
>> from dozens of satellites in space
>> we'd all glow in the dark. Actually, the strength of the GPS signal
is
>>
>
>
>> very small, equivalent to the tail
>> light of a car seen from 2,500 kilometers away-halfway across the
>> U.S.! Weaker, in fact, than the
>> ordinary background radio noise that's all around us all of the
time."
>>
>>
>> So then thinking about laying it underneath fiberglass, my thought
is:
>> "Well, if fiberglass is transparent to GPS, then how many layers are
>> transparent to the GPS. Can you put it under 1/16", 1/8", 1", 5"?
>> At what point do you decide you've hidden the GPS from it enough?"
>>
>> And, if it's under a cowl, or at some other point not mounted
>> horizontally with a full view of the sky in all directions, then
>> which of the available satellites that are now unavailable are you
>> happy to just toss aside from shadowing due to poor mounting? So
>> some of them aren't worth seeing.
>>
>> I understand the love of building a cosmetically pleasing airplane,
>>
> but
>
>> to sacrifice life-saving avionics signals really makes me wonder.
And
>> nothing against Dan Checkoway, but it's amazing how one person's good
>> experience with a poor mounting choice can spread to such a universal
>> acceptance of the idea. It might be better to bounce mounting
>> and location questions off the antenna makers and companies like
>>
> Garmin
>
>> and see how far they're willing to stick their neck out with an
>>
> answer.
>
>> If it were harmless, they'd have no reason to avoid giving the
advice.
>> I've had many phone calls to Comant and questions to other antenna
>> makers throughout the build, which in the end mostly just led me to
>> try to be as "conventional" as possible to attempt the same
>> reliability as the certified planes could have.
>>
>> Now, if someone was building a VFR only airplane, I'd say "heck yeah,
>> may as well give it a try".
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>>
>>
>>
>> Deems Davis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John W. Cox wrote:
>>>
>>> . Fiberglass is not transparent
>>> to RF it creates a false positive and measurable signal loss. It is
>>> only translucent with a clearly diminished performance. It also
>>>
> requires
>
>>> your output amp to work significantly harder leading to earlier
>>> potential failure and often a loss of valuable communication when
you
>>> need it most - rain fade, cloud obscuration and turbulence
>>>
>>> John, can you elaborate or point me to a reference source. I have
>>> always heard that fiberglass is transparent wrt antennas. If there
is
>>>
>
>
>>> a loss due to the fiberglass how big of a loss is it? and what is a
>>> 'false positive'? Does the fiberglass affect all spectrums equally?
>>> Both of the antennas in my case are receive only and are satellite
>>> based systems.
>>>
>>> Deems Davis # 406
>>> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
>>> http://deemsrv10.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Antenna placement and adequate ground plane or ground |
wire termination
I mounted my Garmin 196 GPS antenna under the top cowling in my RV-6A. It
worked fine, although there was some attenuation - which was ok since this
was a VFR application. Then I painted my plane with metallic paint on top of
the cowling and the GPS no longer received enough signal to work, so I moved
the antenna. I don't like having antennas hanging out on the plane, but on
my RV-10 the GPS antennas are outside on the top. The GPS antenna may work
ok under the cowling as long as no metallic paint is over it, but I don't
want anything to attenuate the signal since this will be used for IFR
flying.
Kevin Belue
RV-6A N97KB
RV-10 finishing
Message 25
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| Subject: | Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS! |
I would not use it unless I had an emergency and needed to fix a flat. I
think, with no rational reason, is that the chance of it puddleing and
causing a grossly out of balance tire is to high.
Bob K
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 6:52 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS!
Now here is an off the wall thought, anyone give any consideration to
using one of the leak sealant products in their tubes? Maybe something like
Slime? Pro's/Con's? Might be just the thing to reduce air loss and the
difference between being stuck on a backwoods strip or making it home.
Thoughts from the peanut gallery? J
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Desser vs. Michelin... TUBE WARS!
Just my experience: 3 Desser leakguards. Mains are great, add air maybe
every 6 months. Nose tube...no such ruck. Leaks worse than the standard tube
previously there..have to add air every month.
On 9/16/07, Chris Johnston <CJohnston@popsound.com> wrote:
yay! while we're arguing about stuff... could you guys argue about this for
me so i can decide? i'm trying to decide on some less leaky inner tubes,
and i think it's between Desser's "leak guard", and Michelin's "airstop".
what say you all? and is it reasonably self-explanatory to order the right
size inner tube? is it possible for me to screw it up?
cj
#40410
fuse/finishing
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Retractable Seat Belt Question |
I did not weigh mine, but my guess is about 3 lbs each with the inertia reel
.
Don't sweat the small stuff.
The 10 is a lot like the 182 when it comes to hauling weight around.
If you like the belts and rotary release, go for it.
grumpy
DO NOT ARCHIVE
In a message dated 9/16/2007 10:45:18 PM Central Standard Time,
robin1@mrmoisture.com writes:
I have a Retractable Seat Belt question especially for Grumpy and Chris
Johnston.
I was able to assemble a very nice combination to create a retractable seat
belt set with a rotary buckle release. My concern is the units weight in at
5
lbs each . I assume the stock vans belts weigh a couple of pounds each
(including all hardware). Chris, Grumpy, how much did your retractable units
weigh?
Anyone else out there using retracts? I can=99t imagine any retractabl
e systems
weighing less than 3.5 lbs due to all the metal in the retract housing so my
units may not be out of line but I sure don=99t want to hang another 2
0 lbs on my
plane (net 12 additional lbs).
The good news is that these belts are ~$130.00 per set.
Thanks,
Robin
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Retractable Seat Belt Question |
What belts are you using for that price?
John Lenhardt
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Marks
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:43 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Retractable Seat Belt Question
I have a Retractable Seat Belt question especially for Grumpy and
Chris Johnston.
I was able to assemble a very nice combination to create a retractable
seat belt set with a rotary buckle release. My concern is the units
weight in at 5 lbs each . I assume the stock vans belts weigh a couple
of pounds each (including all hardware). Chris, Grumpy, how much did
your retractable units weigh? Anyone else out there using retracts? I
can't imagine any retractable systems weighing less than 3.5 lbs due to
all the metal in the retract housing so my units may not be out of line
but I sure don't want to hang another 20 lbs on my plane (net 12
additional lbs).
The good news is that these belts are ~$130.00 per set.
Thanks,
Robin
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: GPS antennae |
You did that just to make me open AC 43.13, didn't you.........
Dr Fred.
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> Mathematically measurable using the formula found in the AC43.13.
> Insignificant in the grand scheme of ROP/LOP operations.
>
> John W. Cox 40600
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
> Williams, M.D.
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 8:53 AM
> To: RV 10
> Subject: RV10-List: GPS antennae
>
> <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> Other than the "unsightly wart" appearance, how much drag is there in a
> GPS antennae on the top back of the canopy? Is there a measurable
> speed difference?
>
> Fred Williams
> 40515
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Calibration Problem (Dynon FliteDek 180) |
OK guys. I could use a little help here. I tried to calibrate my fuel gages
tonight but no joy. I have SW resistive floats and as I fill the tanks, the
Dynon system says the readings from the tank doesn't change as gas is added.
It's possible that the float is stuck, the wiring is incorrect, the Dynon is
bad or not setup correctly, or maybe the SW gage is bad. However, both tanks
act the same. I'm trying to remember how the gage is wired internally. There
is only 1 screw on the outside of the tank, that's probably the center tap
of the variable resistor attached to the float. How is the thing grounded
internally? I can't remember what it looks like inside. Does anyone have a
picture of their gage before it was installed in the tank they can share
with me? Did we have to ground the gage internally and I forgot to do that?
Thanks in advance,
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
N991RV
Message 30
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Calibration Problem (Dynon FliteDek 180) |
Albert,
You should be able to bend a coat hanger 90 degrees and thread it throught
the sump hole, then push up gently on the float arm. With a meter you
should see the resistance change between the center pin and any good ground.
I think the resistance is 40 to 240 ohms. That should troubleshoot the
float.
Good Luck,
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:56 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Calibration Problem (Dynon FliteDek 180)
--> <ibspud@roadrunner.com>
OK guys. I could use a little help here. I tried to calibrate my fuel gages
tonight but no joy. I have SW resistive floats and as I fill the tanks, the
Dynon system says the readings from the tank doesn't change as gas is added.
It's possible that the float is stuck, the wiring is incorrect, the Dynon is
bad or not setup correctly, or maybe the SW gage is bad. However, both tanks
act the same. I'm trying to remember how the gage is wired internally. There
is only 1 screw on the outside of the tank, that's probably the center tap
of the variable resistor attached to the float. How is the thing grounded
internally? I can't remember what it looks like inside. Does anyone have a
picture of their gage before it was installed in the tank they can share
with me? Did we have to ground the gage internally and I forgot to do that?
Thanks in advance,
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
N991RV
Message 31
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| Subject: | Retractable Seat Belt Question |
John,
I am not using these YET. I just cobbled these together
this weekend as a test. I think I prefer the rotary belt release but
didn't want the 3" wide racing belts so I opted for the 2" belt with
rotary release. Below is a photo of a set I found on ebay (sold to
drifters) for $50.00 delivered. They are a 4 point fixed location belt.
No retract. (retract portion below). 5 point also available for about
the same price.
I found these retract belts online. MSRP ~$99, I think I paid $79
delivered! They are built by Corbeau and may be good enough to use as-is
but I THINK I wanted the rotary release so I blended the two sets (both
black).
>From the Corbeau I used from the retract all they way down to the
shoulder adjustment buckle.
>From the Rotary Release I used from the bottom of the shoulder
adjustment buckle down; including the lap belt and rotary buckle.
Note: on the Corbeau there is a quick disconnect between the Y and the
retract assembly. Could be nice to remove when the rear seats are not
used (lap belt stays attached)
Again the Corbeau are probably good enough to use as is but I didn't
want the basic car belt buckle which may be more comfortable than the
Rotary Release (see padding behind the belt buckle).
http://www.corbeau.com/products/2_inch_belts/2_inch.shtml
Final note: the retract attaches with a single bolt. I believe we may
have to modify the attachment mechanism.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Lenhardt
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Retractable Seat Belt Question
What belts are you using for that price?
John Lenhardt
----- Original Message ----- sing these
From: Robin Marks <mailto:robin1@mrmoisture.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:43 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Retractable Seat Belt Question
I have a Retractable Seat Belt question especially for Grumpy
and Chris Johnston.
I was able to assemble a very nice combination to create a
retractable seat belt set with a rotary buckle release. My concern is
the units weight in at 5 lbs each . I assume the stock vans belts weigh
a couple of pounds each (including all hardware). Chris, Grumpy, how
much did your retractable units weigh? Anyone else out there using
retracts? I can't imagine any retractable systems weighing less than 3.5
lbs due to all the metal in the retract housing so my units may not be
out of line but I sure don't want to hang another 20 lbs on my plane
(net 12 additional lbs).
The good news is that these belts are ~$130.00 per set.
Thanks,
Robin
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Calibration Problem (Dynon FliteDek 180) |
Hello Albert,
check out the linmk below. Hope that helps.
http://www.wellenzohn.net/RV10Wings/fuellevelsender.html
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (fuselage)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134984#134984
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