Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:46 AM - QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 (Patrick ONeill)
2. 05:28 AM - Re: Fuel Tanks - To Alodine or Not to Alodine - That is the Question? (Tim Olson)
3. 06:49 AM - Re: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 (JSMcGrew@aol.com)
4. 07:30 AM - Re: Fuel Tanks - To Alodine or Not to Alodine - That is the Question? (Vernon Smith)
5. 08:07 AM - Re: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 (Jesse Saint)
6. 09:59 AM - Re: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 (Bill Reining)
7. 10:40 AM - Special fitting required (Michael Wellenzohn)
8. 11:07 AM - Central or South America? (Jesse Saint)
9. 12:08 PM - Re: Special fitting required (Tim Olson)
10. 12:08 PM - Re: Special fitting required (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
11. 01:33 PM - Re: Special fitting required (Michael Wellenzohn)
12. 01:35 PM - Re: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 (Chris and Susie McGough)
13. 03:21 PM - Re: Fuel Tanks - To Alodine or Not to Alodine - That is the Question? (John Dunne)
14. 05:20 PM - Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co (bob.kaufmann)
15. 07:34 PM - Re: Special fitting required (William Curtis)
16. 09:08 PM - Re: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co (Fred Williams, M.D.)
Message 1
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| Subject: | QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 |
I'm still working through double checking all the QB Wings+Fuse plan steps
and encountered an issue with one of the uncompleted wing steps.
Page 16-2 Step 3 where you #19 drill the center nut plate holes for the wing
root fairing attach. The center holes have not been drilled, so I am
drilling them. The problem is that there are 3 layers of aluminum already
riveted together which must be drilled through: rib, wing walk doubler, and
top skin. When drilling out the center hole, I am getting bur/chip
production between the layers.
I'm using a #19 jobber bit and going slow, but I am not able to avoid
separation of the layers due to chips. It's too tight to use a chip chaser
without damaging the skins. I was able to clean out the first two and then
stopped to research before proceeding.
Was this step completed for any others with QB wings or is this a standard
task for the builder to complete?
Any suggestions for avoiding the burrs/chips in between the layers while
drilling?
Best Regards,
Patrick 40715
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tanks - To Alodine or Not to Alodine - That is the |
Question?
If you rinse the alodine well after the surface is prepped, there
shouldn't be any downside. The process is a chemical conversion
of the surface layer for corrosion protection, so its not something
that will wash off in fuel...as long as you clean it off well after
the alodine process. The pro is that it's a good step up in
corrosion protection of the metal. Alodining also is a good
surface prep to INCREASE adhesion of primers and paints, and will
likely make the proseal adhere better too, although the benefit
is minimal there.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Patrick Pulis wrote:
>
> Could anyone please tell me the pro's and con's of alodining fuel tanks
> prior to construction?
>
> Is this warranted or a wasted effort that will create problems with
> proseal adhesion or the like?
>
> My initial thoughts are to alodine the tanks.
>
> Many thanks in anticipation for your response.
>
>
>
> Patrick Pulis
> #40299
>
> Adelaide, South Ausralia
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 |
Patrick,
I had the same issue with my QB kit, although, I don't have any suggestions
for you. Just do the best you can. It is certainly a good idea to check every
step in the plans to make sure it was done and done correctly. I spent
probably a week checking/fixing stuff before actually starting work. I found it
quite disturbing that they failed to drill the center holes for almost every
single nut plate installed in the QB fuse. That makes it pretty hard to drill
and properly debur those holes (especially when there are multiple layers of
aluminum). Good luck.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 9/25/2007 7:47:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
poneill@irealms.com writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Patrick ONeill" <poneill@irealms.com>
I'm still working through double checking all the QB Wings+Fuse plan steps
and encountered an issue with one of the uncompleted wing steps.
Page 16-2 Step 3 where you #19 drill the center nut plate holes for the wing
root fairing attach. The center holes have not been drilled, so I am
drilling them. The problem is that there are 3 layers of aluminum already
riveted together which must be drilled through: rib, wing walk doubler, and
top skin. When drilling out the center hole, I am getting bur/chip
production between the layers.
I'm using a #19 jobber bit and going slow, but I am not able to avoid
separation of the layers due to chips. It's too tight to use a chip chaser
without damaging the skins. I was able to clean out the first two and then
stopped to research before proceeding.
Was this step completed for any others with QB wings or is this a standard
task for the builder to complete?
Any suggestions for avoiding the burrs/chips in between the layers while
drilling?
Best Regards,
Patrick 40715
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
_http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew_ (http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fuel Tanks - To Alodine or Not to Alodine - That is the |
Question?
Hi Patrick,
Here is a link to a discussion on this topic that happened in January of 20
06 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=876&sid=7b6b14c50442f45e
4af12d4bab1c41b9. Most of the conversation was marked "do not archive" so i
t doesn't show up in the archives.
Enjoy,
Vern Smith (Almost ready to work on cabin top:)
> Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Tanks - To Alodine or Not to Alodine - That is t
he Question?> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:47:12 +0930> From: patrick.pulis@se
agas.com.au> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> > --> RV10-List message posted by
: "Patrick Pulis" <patrick.pulis@seagas.com.au>> > Could anyone please tell
me the pro's and con's of alodining fuel tanks> prior to construction?> >
Is this warranted or a wasted effort that will create problems with> prosea
l adhesion or the like?> > My initial thoughts are to alodine the tanks.> >
Many thanks in anticipation for your response.> > > > Patrick Pulis> #4029
========================> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
Can you find the hidden words?- Take a break and play Seekadoo!
http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink
Message 5
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| Subject: | QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 |
If you use a couple of cleco clamps to hold the skins together, then run a
#40 bit first, then #30 and then go up to #19, that should help a lot on the
burrs. The cleco clamps should do a fairly good job of holding the skins
together. Also, if you just put a little bit of pressure and let the bit do
the work, the skins will not be separated as much while drilling.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: JSMcGrew@aol.com [mailto:JSMcGrew@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3
Patrick,
I had the same issue with my QB kit, although, I don't have any suggestions
for you. Just do the best you can. It is certainly a good idea to check
every step in the plans to make sure it was done and done correctly. I spent
probably a week checking/fixing stuff before actually starting work. I found
it quite disturbing that they failed to drill the center holes for almost
every single nut plate installed in the QB fuse. That makes it pretty hard
to drill and properly debur those holes (especially when there are multiple
layers of aluminum). Good luck.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 9/25/2007 7:47:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
poneill@irealms.com writes:
I'm still working through double checking all the QB Wings+Fuse plan steps
and encountered an issue with one of the uncompleted wing steps.
Page 16-2 Step 3 where you #19 drill the center nut plate holes for the wing
root fairing attach. The center holes have not been drilled, so I am
drilling them. The problem is that there are 3 layers of aluminum already
riveted together which must be drilled through: rib, wing walk doubler, and
top skin. When drilling out the center hole, I am getting bur/chip
production between the layers.
I'm using a #19 jobber bit and going slow, but I am not able to avoid
separation of the layers due to chips. It's too tight to use a chip chaser
without damaging the skins. I was able to clean out the first two and then
stopped to research before proceeding.
Was this step completed for any others with QB wings or is this a standard
task for the builder to complete?
Any suggestions for avoiding the burrs/chips in between the layers while
drilling?
Best Regards,
Patrick 40715
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew
_____
See what's new at AOL.com and .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 |
Be careful, there is a gotcha here. One of the nutplates is different, such that the screw hole is on the side, rather than the middle. The plans are correct. See Tim Olsen's comments in his gotchas section here: http://www.myrv10.com/tips/gotchas.html
--------
Bill (and Jon) Reining
40514
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136366#136366
Message 7
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| Subject: | Special fitting required |
Hi,
I moved the Andair fuel valve further to the floor and would require a special
fitting with two 90 elbows (see attached photoshop picture)
Does anyone know if something like this exists and where I could get one?
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (fuselage)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136373#136373
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fitting_210.jpg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Central or South America? |
Is anybody on the list in Central or South America or possibly in the
Caribbean?
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Special fitting required |
I don't know that you'll ever find that one, but you could
make it out of individual other components. The problem is,
it won't be that compact....and it can't. The problem with that
particular part is that there isn't enough room for 2 nuts
to attach to the nipples.
Check racing supply places though, and you may find some various
fittings that could be put together to accomplish what you need.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Michael Wellenzohn wrote:
> <rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
>
> Hi,
>
> I moved the Andair fuel valve further to the floor and would require
> a special fitting with two 90 elbows (see attached photoshop
> picture)
>
> Does anyone know if something like this exists and where I could get
> one?
>
> Michael
>
> -------- RV-10 builder (fuselage) #511
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136373#136373
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/fitting_210.jpg
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Special fitting required |
You could use a manifold fitting from Spruce, or just take 2 T's and connect them
with the smallest flares you can make, or you can get the small/ short double
female flares from summit racing, expensive but worth it when space is a premium.
Dan
N289DT RV10E Flying
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wellenzohn
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:38 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Special fitting required
Hi,
I moved the Andair fuel valve further to the floor and would require a special
fitting with two 90 elbows (see attached photoshop picture)
Does anyone know if something like this exists and where I could get one?
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (fuselage)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136373#136373
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fitting_210.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Special fitting required |
The picture just shows how it roughfly should look like, of course there should
be enough room to tighten the nuts. I don't have enough room combine two t-fittings.
Looks like I need to remove the fuel filter / pump brackets and position
them a little more towards the firewall to gain more space.
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (fuselage)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136412#136412
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3 |
Use a step drill to just under 19 and then 19 drill and then it will be
perfect
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick ONeill" <poneill@irealms.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:57 PM
Subject: RV10-List: QB Wings: Page 16-2 Step 3
>
> I'm still working through double checking all the QB Wings+Fuse plan steps
> and encountered an issue with one of the uncompleted wing steps.
>
> Page 16-2 Step 3 where you #19 drill the center nut plate holes for the
> wing
> root fairing attach. The center holes have not been drilled, so I am
> drilling them. The problem is that there are 3 layers of aluminum already
> riveted together which must be drilled through: rib, wing walk doubler,
> and
> top skin. When drilling out the center hole, I am getting bur/chip
> production between the layers.
>
> I'm using a #19 jobber bit and going slow, but I am not able to avoid
> separation of the layers due to chips. It's too tight to use a chip
> chaser
> without damaging the skins. I was able to clean out the first two and
> then
> stopped to research before proceeding.
>
> Was this step completed for any others with QB wings or is this a standard
> task for the builder to complete?
>
> Any suggestions for avoiding the burrs/chips in between the layers while
> drilling?
>
> Best Regards,
> Patrick 40715
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fuel Tanks - To Alodine or Not to Alodine - That is the |
Question?
Pat, the way I see it is the alodine is protection against corrosion and a
good basis for paint adhesion, neither of which should be required inside
your tanks.
The hard thing to do would be to NOT alodine the internal, especially if you
are using a dipping method.
Of course there's much more to alodining beyond your general question:
types, class, application, process control and testing and the question that
maybe should be asked is, given the type of chemical conversion coating that
is used, what is the consequence of any inferior application and avgas
contamination? "After application, the coating shall be continuous
and substantially free from powdery and loose areas" (MIL-DTL-81706B).
Done correctly, added protection, no problem.
John 40315
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Pulis
Sent: Tuesday, 25 September 2007 4:17 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Tanks - To Alodine or Not to Alodine - That is the
Question?
<patrick.pulis@seagas.com.au>
Could anyone please tell me the pro's and con's of alodining fuel tanks
prior to construction?
Is this warranted or a wasted effort that will create problems with
proseal adhesion or the like?
My initial thoughts are to alodine the tanks.
Many thanks in anticipation for your response.
Patrick Pulis
#40299
Adelaide, South Ausralia
Message 14
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| Subject: | Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co |
This is a crass commercial announcement. Sorry, but we are as serious as a
heart attack in getting the word out. Please read the letter below and
either delete it or act on it.
Dear Potential Member
This letter is to update all interested prospected members regarding
progress we have made in making Aircraft Mutual Benefit group a reality.
Initially we were hoping to provide aircraft hull coverage and builder's
risk. We have discovered that we could provide a better package to the RV
builder that also includes liability coverage. Sort of a one stop shop for
your insurance needs.
In June we had a meeting with the broker to discuss the possibilities to
offer an alternative insurance product to RV builders and flyers. We were
advised that the concept was good and the next step would be to have an
actuarial study and an independent audit to verify that the program would be
a financial success to the members of the group. This information from these
studies would be used to assess the feasibility of the program. This in turn
would be presented to different underwriter insurers to purchase the master
insurance coverage above the group deductible to make the program function.
We will be seeking quotes from several insurers to obtain the best cost for
the group. Once an agreeable quote is provided, the cost of premiums will be
established to fund the insurance. This will allow us to provide a fixed
cost for annual premiums for each member.
The group will be a captive program essentially insuring itself up to a
certain amount. This amount will be established by the financial audit and
the actuaries. If that amount is exceeded then the excess insurance will
trigger and provide coverage.
The estimated costs to complete the actuarial study, financial audit and
feasibility study are estimated at $30,000.00 to $45,000.00.
How the program will work.
1. Each member will have a membership fee to belong to the program.
This feel will be $2000.00 and will be a one time membership fee to
establish your personal membership account. All members will start with a
$2000.00 account. As profits are realized in this business a portion of
those profits will go into your member account proportional to the balance
in the account. (A similar process as what happens in your USAA insurance
account, if you are insured by USAA.)
2. As capital exceeds that required by the company for reserves and
normal customary business expenses a return on premium will be sent to the
member on the anniversary of their membership. This premium rebate will be
in addition to the 25% reduction that they receive by being in the group.
3. If the member no longer is flying a RV and wants to withdraw from
Aircraft Mutual Benefit they will receive the balance on their membership
account as a final settlement and the membership shall be terminated at that
time. If conditions change and they want to return membership they shall
again have to open their membership account with the preliminary deposit.
This balance is subject to annual losses from operations.
At this time we would like to start collecting a portion of the membership
fee in the amount of $150.00 per member to fund the various studies that are
needed to go forth. This money would be credited towards the initial
membership fee but will not committed until we have contracted for the audit
and feasibility studies.
By asking for a percentage of the membership fee we are able to get an
indication of the willingness of the RV population at large to participate
in such a program. We will return all the money in the event we do not
reach the $30,000.00 to $45,000.00 required to complete the studies. If we
do receive the necessary interest and funds then we will consider that as a
down payment on the membership account.
We look forward to your response and participation to become a member of
this group. Considering the safety record of RV aircraft we can start
insuring ourselves and paying for ourselves not the entire general aviation
market.
Bob Kaufmann Rick Sked
Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co. Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co.
bob@AIRCRAFTMUTUAL.COM rick@AIRCRAFTMUTUAL.COM
RV-10 20B Rotary Engine, RV-10 IO-540, almost ready
to slip the
Working on the intake and exhaust surly bounds of earth.
PS. We are asking that the checks be sent to Aircraft Mutual at 1930
Village Center Circle, Suite 3-833, Las Vegas, NV 89134. If you are going
to LOE then I will be around Russ Daves RV-10 but will be wearing an
Aircraft Mutual Polo and Hat. I would welcome questions and potential
deposits there also. We are expecting that all will be in place and
finished by the first of the year and the RV community can begin to self
cover itself at that time.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Special fitting required |
If you don't find that then maybe a manifold would work.
MANIFOLD AL FITTING FAB-1-0-6
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anfittings/manifoldfitting.jpg
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/alummanifoldfit.php
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
-------- Original Message --------
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I moved the Andair fuel valve further to the floor and would require a special
fitting with two 90 elbows (see attached photoshop picture)
>
> Does anyone know if something like this exists and where I could get one?
>
> Michael
>
> --------
> RV-10 builder (fuselage)
> #511
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136373#136373
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/fitting_210.jpg
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co |
Questions:
1. How does the risk pool of RV flyer's compare to the "average risk
pool" of single engine fixed gear planes? What are the numbers?
2. Can you project at this time how much liability and hull coverage
would be for the RV 10 at say, 150 -175 k value?
3. Would others who are now flying then share their costs with the group?
4. How would this effect cavemen??
Fred Williams
40515
Trying not to write anything untrue or stupid for the rest of the month.
bob.kaufmann wrote:
>
> This is a crass commercial announcement. Sorry, but we are as serious as a
> heart attack in getting the word out. Please read the letter below and
> either delete it or act on it.
>
> Dear Potential Member
>
> This letter is to update all interested prospected members regarding
> progress we have made in making Aircraft Mutual Benefit group a reality.
> Initially we were hoping to provide aircraft hull coverage and builder's
> risk. We have discovered that we could provide a better package to the RV
> builder that also includes liability coverage. Sort of a one stop shop for
> your insurance needs.
>
> In June we had a meeting with the broker to discuss the possibilities to
> offer an alternative insurance product to RV builders and flyers. We were
> advised that the concept was good and the next step would be to have an
> actuarial study and an independent audit to verify that the program would be
> a financial success to the members of the group. This information from these
> studies would be used to assess the feasibility of the program. This in turn
> would be presented to different underwriter insurers to purchase the master
> insurance coverage above the group deductible to make the program function.
> We will be seeking quotes from several insurers to obtain the best cost for
> the group. Once an agreeable quote is provided, the cost of premiums will be
> established to fund the insurance. This will allow us to provide a fixed
> cost for annual premiums for each member.
>
> The group will be a captive program essentially insuring itself up to a
> certain amount. This amount will be established by the financial audit and
> the actuaries. If that amount is exceeded then the excess insurance will
> trigger and provide coverage.
>
> The estimated costs to complete the actuarial study, financial audit and
> feasibility study are estimated at $30,000.00 to $45,000.00.
>
> How the program will work.
>
> 1. Each member will have a membership fee to belong to the program.
> This feel will be $2000.00 and will be a one time membership fee to
> establish your personal membership account. All members will start with a
> $2000.00 account. As profits are realized in this business a portion of
> those profits will go into your member account proportional to the balance
> in the account. (A similar process as what happens in your USAA insurance
> account, if you are insured by USAA.)
> 2. As capital exceeds that required by the company for reserves and
> normal customary business expenses a return on premium will be sent to the
> member on the anniversary of their membership. This premium rebate will be
> in addition to the 25% reduction that they receive by being in the group.
> 3. If the member no longer is flying a RV and wants to withdraw from
> Aircraft Mutual Benefit they will receive the balance on their membership
> account as a final settlement and the membership shall be terminated at that
> time. If conditions change and they want to return membership they shall
> again have to open their membership account with the preliminary deposit.
> This balance is subject to annual losses from operations.
>
> At this time we would like to start collecting a portion of the membership
> fee in the amount of $150.00 per member to fund the various studies that are
> needed to go forth. This money would be credited towards the initial
> membership fee but will not committed until we have contracted for the audit
> and feasibility studies.
>
> By asking for a percentage of the membership fee we are able to get an
> indication of the willingness of the RV population at large to participate
> in such a program. We will return all the money in the event we do not
> reach the $30,000.00 to $45,000.00 required to complete the studies. If we
> do receive the necessary interest and funds then we will consider that as a
> down payment on the membership account.
>
> We look forward to your response and participation to become a member of
> this group. Considering the safety record of RV aircraft we can start
> insuring ourselves and paying for ourselves not the entire general aviation
> market.
>
>
> Bob Kaufmann Rick Sked
> Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co. Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co.
> bob@AIRCRAFTMUTUAL.COM rick@AIRCRAFTMUTUAL.COM
> RV-10 20B Rotary Engine, RV-10 IO-540, almost ready
> to slip the
> Working on the intake and exhaust surly bounds of earth.
>
> PS. We are asking that the checks be sent to Aircraft Mutual at 1930
> Village Center Circle, Suite 3-833, Las Vegas, NV 89134. If you are going
> to LOE then I will be around Russ Daves RV-10 but will be wearing an
> Aircraft Mutual Polo and Hat. I would welcome questions and potential
> deposits there also. We are expecting that all will be in place and
> finished by the first of the year and the RV community can begin to self
> cover itself at that time.
>
>
>
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