Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:37 AM - Re: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh (Patrick ONeill)
2. 01:45 AM - Re: Firewall Vent Boxes (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
3. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh (gary)
4. 06:08 AM - Re: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh (gary)
5. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh (Patrick ONeill)
6. 06:23 AM - Re: Firewall Vent Boxes (Halon Fire Bottle) (David McNeill)
7. 06:29 AM - Re: QB fuselage floors (johngoodman)
8. 06:38 AM - Re: (Halon Fire Bottle) (linn Walters)
9. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: QB fuselage floors (Patrick ONeill)
10. 07:04 AM - Re: To Prim or not to Prim (johngoodman)
11. 07:12 AM - Re: battery cable routing (Deems Davis)
12. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: QB fuselage floors (Tim Olson)
13. 07:53 AM - Re: Nose Fork Break Out Force (Jesse Saint)
14. 08:00 AM - Re: Plane completion pictures (dherring10)
15. 08:05 AM - RV 10 For Sale (Tom Deutsch)
16. 09:09 AM - Re: (Halon Fire Bottle) (Rick Sked)
17. 06:18 PM - Re: QB fuselage floors (johngoodman)
18. 06:38 PM - VOR/LOC/GS antenna (Eric_Kallio)
19. 07:13 PM - Re: VOR/LOC/GS antenna (Jesse Saint)
20. 08:00 PM - Re: battery cable routing (Kelly McMullen)
21. 08:11 PM - Re: VOR/LOC/GS antenna (Kelly McMullen)
22. 09:32 PM - Re: QB fuselage floors (John Ackerman)
23. 09:35 PM - Re: battery cable routing (Rick Sked)
24. 09:46 PM - wahoooo (dogsbark@comcast.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh |
Yup, I ordered back in July, and am now eagerly awaiting the resuming of
production by OP. Darn acquisition doldrums!
Do any of you other OP guys happen to know if you can change the screen
orientation (portrait vs. landscape) in the field or if it needs to be set
at the factory?
All these great OP panels and the waiting are causing me reconsider things
again and again.
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
Patrick O'Neil has also ordered his OP Tech systems.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/ gary
wrote:
>
> I too have an OP tech panel (integrated system) My math says that
> there are 3 of us, but I hear rumors of more folks that have chosen
> OP. If any of you are lurking, speak up and we can compare notes.
>
> Gary
> 40274
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:28 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
>
> --> <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
> Dwayne, great to have you surface like this. Your selections with the
> help of the gang at Accuracy adds another rung at climbing the ladder
> of RV-10s setting a new kit building standard.
>
> I too, think Deems has done his homework and look forward to his Phase
> I, fly off.
>
> Your panel is one of the top 10 in my book.
>
> John
> 40600
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dherring10
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:07 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
>
> <dherring10@suddenlink.net>
>
> George,
> I just saw your post about my panel Tony had in his booth at Oshkosh.
> John is correct that I am a lurker. Maybe when I actually have a flying
> airplane I will feel that I can give advice about building to others.
> Besides there have always been such good answers posted by the time I
> read the questions that in most instances I could not add anything. Tim
> Olsen has told me to respond anyway so maybe I'll start now. Here are a
> couple more pictures of my panel. Some of the items and switches Tony
> and Eric had installed on the panel are not the ones that will actually
> be used. They were just trying to fill the holes for the show. Let me
> know if you have any specific questions that I can answer and feel free
> to contact me offline if you want. I was looking at both the Chelton and
> OP Tech systems and had decided on the Chelton until the D2 problems.
> After Tony and I talked about and I did my own research I decided to use
> the OP Tech. Hoping for good things with the buy-out of OP Te!
> ch by Aerosonics. Besides if Deems was using them I knew he had done
> the homework.
>
> I will tell you that Tony, Eric and all the gang at Accuracy Avionics
> have been great to work with. I think they will ship the panel to me
> sometime this month. I wish I was really ready for it.
>
> dwayne@mid-westglass.com
>
> Dwayne Herring
> 40506
> QB Fuse
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137631#137631
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_2_183.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_1_183.jpg
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Firewall Vent Boxes |
My feeling is there is a reason they call it a firewall. I went with the s
tainless boxes because to me, it doesn't make sense to have aluminum acting
as a fire barrier on a major part that is made to block a fuel fed fire an
d give you that extra precious couple minutes to possibly get to safety. T
hey also have ceramic gaskets for those that feel some of the tunnel heat i
s via conduction of the heater boxes.
Nothing wrong with Van's boxes.... unless you have a engine fire.
My 0.02
Michael Sausen
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:31 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Firewall Vent Boxes
Hi
A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting thread about the various fla
vours of Pro-Seal and what should be used to seal gaps in the firewall. The
gist of the discussion was that the actual compound used to seal the gaps
should have the apropriate fire (temperature) rating.
As I complete the fuselage, I keep looking at the aluminium vent boxes that
mount on the engine side of the firewall. I have also just come across thi
s link to a company that sells steel vent boxes for RV10s and other Van's a
/c. Th link is http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html.
Are there any opinions out there as to whether or not this is a useful upgr
ade to the Vans kit. It seems to me that if the firewall is steel and we ar
e going to take great care to fireproof the gaps, shouldn't we do the same
with the vent boxes (which represent the largest penetration of the firewal
l)? This seems logical to me, but I would be interested in other points of
view.
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643
----- Original Message -----
From: Pascal <rv10builder@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: FW: To Prim or not to Prim
> oy vay!
> Look at the archives and you'll see 100's of opinions on this.
> Use anything you want from a DTM wash primer from SW to the
> Van's QB primer of SW P60 to 2 part stuff from Spruce.
> Jesse can tell you what he's using.
> My decision in California was prime for the extra measure (and
> scratches I seemed to create moving pieces around) and I used
> the easiest thing I could find. Sherwin Williams DTM wash
> primer. It works, I believe, well enough for me.
> I believe ERAU has Cessnas in Daytona Beach with no primer- I
> doubt they're worried about it..
> Pascal
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joseph Rhodes
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:57 PM
> Subject: RV10-List: FW: To Prim or not to Prim
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------
>
> From: Joseph Rhodes [mailto:joe@rvbuildernet.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 6:49 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: To Prim or not to Prim
>
>
> New builder 40744 Joseph Rhodes
>
>
> To Prim or not to Prim and with what
>
> I live in Florida and with the humidity, salt air and for
> resale value I would like to use a good primer
>
> What are you builders using?
>
> Any help would be appreciated
>
>
> Thanks Joe
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh |
Do you have contact info on these gents?
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
Pat Thysen also has an Op Tech panel.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
gary wrote:
>
> I too have an OP tech panel (integrated system) My math says that there
are
> 3 of us, but I hear rumors of more folks that have chosen OP. If any of
you
> are lurking, speak up and we can compare notes.
>
> Gary
> 40274
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:28 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
>
>
> Dwayne, great to have you surface like this. Your selections with the
> help of the gang at Accuracy adds another rung at climbing the ladder of
> RV-10s setting a new kit building standard.
>
> I too, think Deems has done his homework and look forward to his Phase
> I, fly off.
>
> Your panel is one of the top 10 in my book.
>
> John
> 40600
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dherring10
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:07 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
>
> <dherring10@suddenlink.net>
>
> George,
> I just saw your post about my panel Tony had in his booth at Oshkosh.
> John is correct that I am a lurker. Maybe when I actually have a flying
> airplane I will feel that I can give advice about building to others.
> Besides there have always been such good answers posted by the time I
> read the questions that in most instances I could not add anything. Tim
> Olsen has told me to respond anyway so maybe I'll start now. Here are a
> couple more pictures of my panel. Some of the items and switches Tony
> and Eric had installed on the panel are not the ones that will actually
> be used. They were just trying to fill the holes for the show. Let me
> know if you have any specific questions that I can answer and feel free
> to contact me offline if you want. I was looking at both the Chelton and
> OP Tech systems and had decided on the Chelton until the D2 problems.
> After Tony and I talked about and I did my own research I decided to use
> the OP Tech. Hoping for good things with the buy-out of OP Te!
> ch by Aerosonics. Besides if Deems was using them I knew he had done
> the homework.
>
> I will tell you that Tony, Eric and all the gang at Accuracy Avionics
> have been great to work with. I think they will ship the panel to me
> sometime this month. I wish I was really ready for it.
>
> dwayne@mid-westglass.com
>
> Dwayne Herring
> 40506
> QB Fuse
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137631#137631
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_2_183.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_1_183.jpg
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh |
I don't think that you can change the orientation. I sure would think that
a software change could change it though, but you would end up with the hard
keys and the knobs on the side of the box not the bottom.
Gary
40274
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick ONeill
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 3:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
Yup, I ordered back in July, and am now eagerly awaiting the resuming of
production by OP. Darn acquisition doldrums!
Do any of you other OP guys happen to know if you can change the screen
orientation (portrait vs. landscape) in the field or if it needs to be set
at the factory?
All these great OP panels and the waiting are causing me reconsider things
again and again.
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
Patrick O'Neil has also ordered his OP Tech systems.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/ gary
wrote:
>
> I too have an OP tech panel (integrated system) My math says that
> there are 3 of us, but I hear rumors of more folks that have chosen
> OP. If any of you are lurking, speak up and we can compare notes.
>
> Gary
> 40274
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:28 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
>
> --> <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
> Dwayne, great to have you surface like this. Your selections with the
> help of the gang at Accuracy adds another rung at climbing the ladder
> of RV-10s setting a new kit building standard.
>
> I too, think Deems has done his homework and look forward to his Phase
> I, fly off.
>
> Your panel is one of the top 10 in my book.
>
> John
> 40600
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dherring10
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:07 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
>
> <dherring10@suddenlink.net>
>
> George,
> I just saw your post about my panel Tony had in his booth at Oshkosh.
> John is correct that I am a lurker. Maybe when I actually have a flying
> airplane I will feel that I can give advice about building to others.
> Besides there have always been such good answers posted by the time I
> read the questions that in most instances I could not add anything. Tim
> Olsen has told me to respond anyway so maybe I'll start now. Here are a
> couple more pictures of my panel. Some of the items and switches Tony
> and Eric had installed on the panel are not the ones that will actually
> be used. They were just trying to fill the holes for the show. Let me
> know if you have any specific questions that I can answer and feel free
> to contact me offline if you want. I was looking at both the Chelton and
> OP Tech systems and had decided on the Chelton until the D2 problems.
> After Tony and I talked about and I did my own research I decided to use
> the OP Tech. Hoping for good things with the buy-out of OP Te!
> ch by Aerosonics. Besides if Deems was using them I knew he had done
> the homework.
>
> I will tell you that Tony, Eric and all the gang at Accuracy Avionics
> have been great to work with. I think they will ship the panel to me
> sometime this month. I wish I was really ready for it.
>
> dwayne@mid-westglass.com
>
> Dwayne Herring
> 40506
> QB Fuse
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137631#137631
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_2_183.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_1_183.jpg
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh |
That's true, I had forgotten about the buttons and knobs. Scratch that idea.
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:02 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
I don't think that you can change the orientation. I sure would think that
a software change could change it though, but you would end up with the hard
keys and the knobs on the side of the box not the bottom.
Gary
40274
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick ONeill
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 3:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
Yup, I ordered back in July, and am now eagerly awaiting the resuming of
production by OP. Darn acquisition doldrums!
Do any of you other OP guys happen to know if you can change the screen
orientation (portrait vs. landscape) in the field or if it needs to be set
at the factory?
All these great OP panels and the waiting are causing me reconsider things
again and again.
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
Patrick O'Neil has also ordered his OP Tech systems.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/ gary
wrote:
>
> I too have an OP tech panel (integrated system) My math says that
> there are 3 of us, but I hear rumors of more folks that have chosen
> OP. If any of you are lurking, speak up and we can compare notes.
>
> Gary
> 40274
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:28 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
>
> --> <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
> Dwayne, great to have you surface like this. Your selections with the
> help of the gang at Accuracy adds another rung at climbing the ladder
> of RV-10s setting a new kit building standard.
>
> I too, think Deems has done his homework and look forward to his Phase
> I, fly off.
>
> Your panel is one of the top 10 in my book.
>
> John
> 40600
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dherring10
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:07 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Op Tech panel at Oshkosh
>
> <dherring10@suddenlink.net>
>
> George,
> I just saw your post about my panel Tony had in his booth at Oshkosh.
> John is correct that I am a lurker. Maybe when I actually have a flying
> airplane I will feel that I can give advice about building to others.
> Besides there have always been such good answers posted by the time I
> read the questions that in most instances I could not add anything. Tim
> Olsen has told me to respond anyway so maybe I'll start now. Here are a
> couple more pictures of my panel. Some of the items and switches Tony
> and Eric had installed on the panel are not the ones that will actually
> be used. They were just trying to fill the holes for the show. Let me
> know if you have any specific questions that I can answer and feel free
> to contact me offline if you want. I was looking at both the Chelton and
> OP Tech systems and had decided on the Chelton until the D2 problems.
> After Tony and I talked about and I did my own research I decided to use
> the OP Tech. Hoping for good things with the buy-out of OP Te!
> ch by Aerosonics. Besides if Deems was using them I knew he had done
> the homework.
>
> I will tell you that Tony, Eric and all the gang at Accuracy Avionics
> have been great to work with. I think they will ship the panel to me
> sometime this month. I wish I was really ready for it.
>
> dwayne@mid-westglass.com
>
> Dwayne Herring
> 40506
> QB Fuse
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137631#137631
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_2_183.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_1_183.jpg
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Vent Boxes (Halon Fire Bottle) |
The five pound bottle was supplied by the Glasair/Glastar kit
manufacturer. I used the larger bottle for the 10 because it fit under
the bar and was the right length and width.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Marks
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:41 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Firewall Vent Boxes (Halon Fire Bottle)
David,
I would also like to review your set up. You can email me off list or
better yet share it with the crowd.
I did some research and the systems look pretty straight forward
however I have no idea how to size the Halon bottle. What amount is
enough?
Robin
Robin@painttheweb.com
Do Not Archive
Portland, OR 97219
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall Vent Boxes
For this case I have a 7.5 pound fire bottle with halon which will
flow into the enine compartment. If anyone wants to see I can send a
picture.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: QB fuselage floors |
My Fuselage Kit shows up next week, so what's the reason you are pulling a floor
that has already been riveted in? It sounds like it has to be done because so
many have commented about it.
John
--------
#40572 Empennage done, starting QB Wings
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137818#137818
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: (Halon Fire Bottle) |
I'm surely no expert on fire suppression (starting them is more fun! :-P
), but here's my thoughts. If I understand it, Halon (or the newer
3-gas mix) works by depriving the fire of oxygen by chemically reacting
to the high heat. So, with all the air coming in through the cowl for
cooling, how does the Halon hang around long enough to work??? How long
does it take for the bottle to completely discharge???
I sure would be ticked to find out that I've been carrying around the
weight/cost of a system only to find out too late that it didn't work.
Maybe Rick Sked has some thoughts!! Anybody???
Linn
do not archive
David McNeill wrote:
> The five pound bottle was supplied by the Glasair/Glastar kit
> manufacturer. I used the larger bottle for the 10 because it fit under
> the bar and was the right length and width.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robin Marks <mailto:robin1@mrmoisture.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:41 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Firewall Vent Boxes (Halon Fire Bottle)
>
> David,
>
> I would also like to review your set up. You can email me off list
> or better yet share it with the crowd.
>
> I did some research and the systems look pretty straight forward
> however I have no idea how to size the Halon bottle. What amount
> is enough?
>
>
>
> Robin
>
> Robin@painttheweb.com <mailto:Robin@painttheweb.com>
>
>
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
>
>
> Portland, OR 97219
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: David McNeill <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:21 PM
>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall Vent Boxes
>
>
>
> For this case I have a 7.5 pound fire bottle with halon which
> will flow into the enine compartment. If anyone wants to see
> I can send a picture.
>
>
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: QB fuselage floors |
On mine, it was only temporarily/partially riveted with just a handful of
blind rivets per floor pan panel.
The main reason to pull the floor panels as I understand it, is for
inspection. So that you can verify that the QB assemblers did their job
correctly.
The access is also needed for priming and sound insulation (if you are doing
either of those) and it also helps with the conduit runs (which you could
probably do without pulling the floor pans, but as long as you have them
off, it seems much easier.) At least those are the reasons why I did it.
On my fuse and wings I found numerous little odd tasks buried in the plans
that were not done. I don't trust any plan step I can't visually verify.
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:29 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: QB fuselage floors
--> <johngoodman@earthlink.net>
My Fuselage Kit shows up next week, so what's the reason you are pulling a
floor that has already been riveted in? It sounds like it has to be done
because so many have commented about it. John
--------
#40572 Empennage done, starting QB Wings
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137818#137818
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: To Prim or not to Prim |
[quote="joe(at)rvbuildernet.com"]From: Joseph Rhodes [mailto:joe@rvbuildernet.com]
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: To Prim or not to Prim
New builder 40744 Joseph Rhodes
To Prim or not to Prim and with what
I live in Florida and with the humidity, salt air and for resale value I would
like to use a good primer
What are you builders using?
Any help would be appreciated
Thanks Joe
> [b]
Joe,
There have been plenty of primer wars going on for years. I agree with the others
that a search will give you all the answers you need.
Having said that (g), The 21st Century has produced lots of stuff that might work,
as well. I have decided to use ACF-50. My CAP Unit on Kauai uses it on every
annual. One plane is primered, the other isn't. They both seem just fine. I
don't prime anything unless Van stresses it, and then I only use a rattle can
of Zinc Oxide. The Chromate stuff is a known carcinogen and also destroys the
kidneys.
ACF-50 is a fairly new product that will remind you of WD-40. You spray it on.
I plan on fogging the plane with it right after everything is painted, and then
every year thereafter. Here is a website with a description of it:
http://www.corrosion-control.com/acf50.html
John
--------
#40572 Empennage done, starting QB Wings
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137824#137824
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: battery cable routing |
Kelly, the short answer is, .... I wasn't smart enough to think about
doing it that way.
Deems
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> I'm curious why you would run the extra wires from the battery, Deems?
> My TC aircraft has battery in same location, runs #2 to starter relay,
> where lead connects to same terminal to feed the main bus, and aux
> bus. The starter is only used when there should be absolute minimum
> draw on the buses, and not in use when you need power for all the
> other stuff. Just seems like extra wire and complexity, at first blush.
> Kelly
> Do Not Archive
>
> Deems Davis wrote:
>>
>> Some of it is very dependent on your electrical system architecture
>> and implementation.
>>
>> eg.
>> 1. Are you running a dual battery or dual alt system?
>> 2. Where are you planning on placing the busses? If you put them on
>> one side or the other of the subpanel, it will likely influence which
>> side you run cable on.
>>
>> I ran a #2 Battery to Starter contactor cable on the pilot side for
>> the reasons Tim noted. I also ran a #4 cable on the left side for the
>> main buss & a #10 for the Aux buss, as this is wher e I've located
>> the fuse blocks for the busses.
>>
>> Deems Davis # 406
>> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
>> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: QB fuselage floors |
There are also quite a few people who have found hardware and tools
left under the floors and in hidden places. I almost didn't need
to buy any more drill bits and clecos since they sent so many
from the Philippines with my fuse. ;)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Patrick ONeill wrote:
>
> On mine, it was only temporarily/partially riveted with just a handful of
> blind rivets per floor pan panel.
>
> The main reason to pull the floor panels as I understand it, is for
> inspection. So that you can verify that the QB assemblers did their job
> correctly.
>
> The access is also needed for priming and sound insulation (if you are doing
> either of those) and it also helps with the conduit runs (which you could
> probably do without pulling the floor pans, but as long as you have them
> off, it seems much easier.) At least those are the reasons why I did it.
>
> On my fuse and wings I found numerous little odd tasks buried in the plans
> that were not done. I don't trust any plan step I can't visually verify.
>
> Best Regards,
> Patrick #40715
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:29 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: QB fuselage floors
>
>
> --> <johngoodman@earthlink.net>
>
> My Fuselage Kit shows up next week, so what's the reason you are pulling a
> floor that has already been riveted in? It sounds like it has to be done
> because so many have commented about it. John
>
> --------
> #40572 Empennage done, starting QB Wings
> N711JG reserved
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137818#137818
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Nose Fork Break Out Force |
Anh,
We have noticed the same thing and I believe we discussed it on the list a
while ago. Thanks for bringing it up again. Landing with the loose nose
wheel does give quite a shimmy as it wobbles back and forth. You will also
probably notice that the plane is a lot easier to back up on the ground with
the tight nose wheel. I think after the first tightening it shouldn't need
much more adjustment in the future from what I have seen.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: DejaVu [mailto:wvu@ameritel.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 12:44 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Nose Fork Break Out Force
I got around to checking my nose fork break out force tonight after Joe Zac
informed me that the shake in my nose gear was scary when observing my
landing last weekend from the ground. I had noticed the speed band where I
felt the shake had increased but never got around to checking it. I
measured the break out force at 2 lbs vice 24lbs per Van's instructions.
It's apparent the break out force decreased substantially after 93 hours.
Tightening the nut two more flats as Tim Olson calls it brought it back up
to 22lbs. I wiggled the nose gear a few times and measured again. It went
down to 15lbs. Tightened one more flat brought it up to 27lbs. I decided
to leave it there.
Make sure you check your break out force perhaps every 20 hours or so. My
cupped washers were spinning freely before I started to work on it tonight.
Anh
N591VU Flying
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Plane completion pictures |
What a great looking Airplane! I know you are proud of it.
I am not going to be able to go to LOE this year but If you need a place to stop
and take a break on your trip out there stop here in Midland (MDD) and I will
pick you up and buy you a meal.
Dwayne Herring
40506
QB Fuse
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137840#137840
Message 15
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If anyone knows someone who is looking for a completed 10 for sale
please have them contact me off line at deutscht@rhwhotels.com
Tom Deutsch Serial# 40545
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: (Halon Fire Bottle) |
I can only add what I've heard/known from halon systems on fighters, the ha
lon bottle discharges into the fuel cells and replaces the air space in the
fuel cell with halon in the event the tank is hit. I believe it is a check
list step in actual combat. Good point on the halon disbursement into the c
owl. Assuming the liquid hits the burning areas it should work as long as i
t remains a liquid converting to gas. FWIW Halon is not approved for class
D fires or fires involving burning metals such as magnesium.
It is no longer being produced but=C2-still is available and It is mandat
ed by the FAA I think for commercial air travel. =C2-Halon, =C2-real na
me "halogenated hydrocarbon" was the godsend of all agents because of it's
ability to put out the fire and not damage electrical equipment with minima
l hazards to people. Dry chemical and CB extinguishers are much better but
damaging to material.=C2-CB can be a real health threat.
Halon 1211 (a liquid streaming agent) and Halon 1301 (a gaseous flooding ag
ent) leave no residue and are remarkably safe for human exposure. Halon is
most effective for flammable liquids and electrical fires (rated B:C) and i
s electrically non-conductive. Halon is a CFC, the production of new Halon
ceased in 1994. There is no cost effective means of safely and effectively
disposing of the Halon that has already been produced, therefore recycling
and reusing the existing supply is the only solution.=C2-Similar to the p
light of Freon.
Halon differs from all other extinguishing agents in the way it puts out th
e fire. It offers some of water's cooling effect and some of carbon dioxide
's smothering action, but its essential extinguishing technique lies in its
capacity to chemically react with the fire's components. It actually inter
rupts the chain reaction of fire -- a process known as "chain breaking".
The FAR's address the use of halon in=C2- AC 20-42C and 25.851=C2-
Rick=C2-S.
40185
=C2-
=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From: "linn Walters" <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 6:38:55 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: (Halon Fire Bottle)
I'm surely no expert on fire suppression (starting them is more fun! :-P ),
but here's my thoughts.=C2- If I understand it, Halon (or the newer 3-ga
s mix) works by depriving the fire of oxygen by chemically reacting to the
high heat.=C2-=C2-=C2- So, with all the air coming in through the cow
l for cooling, how does the Halon hang around long enough to work???=C2-
How long does it take for the bottle to completely discharge???
I sure would be ticked to find out that I've been carrying around the weigh
t/cost of a system only to find out too late that it didn't work.
Maybe Rick Sked has some thoughts!!=C2- Anybody???=C2-
Linn
do not archive
David McNeill wrote:
The five pound bottle was supplied by the Glasair/Glastar kit manufacturer.
I used the larger bottle for the 10 because it fit under the bar and was t
he right length and width.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Marks
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:41 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Firewall Vent Boxes (Halon Fire Bottle)
David,
I would also like to review your set up. You can email me off list or bette
r yet share it with the crowd.
I did some research and the systems look pretty straight forward however I
have no idea how to size the Halon bottle. What amount is enough?
Robin
Robin@painttheweb.com
Do Not Archive
Portland, OR 97219
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall Vent Boxes
For this case I have a 7.5 pound fire bottle with halon which will flow int
o the enine compartment. If anyone wants to see I=C2- can send a picture.
=C2- href= "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List" > http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List href= "http://forums.matronics.com" >
http://forums.matronics.com
======
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: QB fuselage floors |
OK, now I understand. Would it also be handy for putting in Comm antennas underneath?
Maybe a sonogram would do but I wouldn't want to know it's sex... :D
--------
#40572 Empennage done, starting QB Wings
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137968#137968
Message 18
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| Subject: | VOR/LOC/GS antenna |
With some aircraft flying now what are your thoughts on an ILS capable antenna.
I was considering the Comant CI-158C as my #1 Nav and the archer wingtip as my
#2 (which is already installed). From what I found in the archives the ILS really
wasn't mentioned too much. What kind of feedback can you all provide on
this and are there any good installation pictures out there?
Eric Kallio
40518 Baggage floors
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137969#137969
Message 19
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| Subject: | VOR/LOC/GS antenna |
We have used the Archer antenna with surprisingly good results. The
reception distance is very good. The wingtip Com's are not that great
because of the orientation, but we are very happy with the results from the
wingtip Nav. Just my $.005 (half cent, which may be more than it is worth).
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric_Kallio [mailto:scout019@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:38 PM
Subject: RV10-List: VOR/LOC/GS antenna
With some aircraft flying now what are your thoughts on an ILS capable
antenna. I was considering the Comant CI-158C as my #1 Nav and the archer
wingtip as my #2 (which is already installed). From what I found in the
archives the ILS really wasn't mentioned too much. What kind of feedback can
you all provide on this and are there any good installation pictures out
there?
Eric Kallio
40518 Baggage floors
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137969#137969
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: battery cable routing |
Honesty is admirable. I'm sure it won't make any difference in the long run.
Doesn't look like I will be able to make LOE. Keeping fingers crossed at
keeping schedule open for Copperstate.
On 10/3/07, Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> Kelly, the short answer is, .... I wasn't smart enough to think about
> doing it that way.
>
> Deems
>
> Kelly McMullen wrote:
> >
> > I'm curious why you would run the extra wires from the battery, Deems?
> > My TC aircraft has battery in same location, runs #2 to starter relay,
> > where lead connects to same terminal to feed the main bus, and aux
> > bus. The starter is only used when there should be absolute minimum
> > draw on the buses, and not in use when you need power for all the
> > other stuff. Just seems like extra wire and complexity, at first blush.
> > Kelly
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> > Deems Davis wrote:
> >>
> >> Some of it is very dependent on your electrical system architecture
> >> and implementation.
> >>
> >> eg.
> >> 1. Are you running a dual battery or dual alt system?
> >> 2. Where are you planning on placing the busses? If you put them on
> >> one side or the other of the subpanel, it will likely influence which
> >> side you run cable on.
> >>
> >> I ran a #2 Battery to Starter contactor cable on the pilot side for
> >> the reasons Tim noted. I also ran a #4 cable on the left side for the
> >> main buss & a #10 for the Aux buss, as this is wher e I've located
> >> the fuse blocks for the busses.
> >>
> >> Deems Davis # 406
> >> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> >> http://deemsrv10.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: VOR/LOC/GS antenna |
I'd say if you have enough signal to drive a VOR, the ILS will work fine on
same antenna via a splitter. I'm currently running two navcoms, both with GS
via one cat whisker antenna and splitters. Works fine.
On 10/3/07, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
>
>
> We have used the Archer antenna with surprisingly good results. The
> reception distance is very good. The wingtip Com's are not that great
> because of the orientation, but we are very happy with the results from
> the
> wingtip Nav. Just my $.005 (half cent, which may be more than it is
> worth).
>
> Do not archive
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> www.saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric_Kallio [mailto:scout019@msn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:38 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: VOR/LOC/GS antenna
>
>
> With some aircraft flying now what are your thoughts on an ILS capable
> antenna. I was considering the Comant CI-158C as my #1 Nav and the archer
> wingtip as my #2 (which is already installed). From what I found in the
> archives the ILS really wasn't mentioned too much. What kind of feedback
> can
> you all provide on this and are there any good installation pictures out
> there?
>
> Eric Kallio
> 40518 Baggage floors
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137969#137969
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: QB fuselage floors |
David:
Tough devil, ain't it? It's just a really tight fit.
It helped to slide thin pieces of card behind the rear flange, and
beside or over rivet heads, etc. that were tight spots.
By sheerest luck, I had saved an old Japanese saw blade - ~ 0.016"
thick - and ground the teeth off. That worked even better.
Maybe steel shim stock would also work.
Clecoes make very helpful handles as noted by several folks on the list.
Persevere!
John Ackerman 40458 finish kit
On Oct 2, 2007, at 7:42 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I remember them being really really tight. I don't remember what
> tricks
> to use to pull them out, but I do remember them taking some effort to
> remove. I think they hung up on the sides.
>
> Tim
> do not archive
>
> dmaib@mac.com wrote:
>> I have removed the baggage area floors, rear seat pans, and started
>> on the rear seat floors this evening. I drilled out the 16 or so pop
>> rivets holding the F1016C (I think) floor. I am unable to budge the
>> floor and cannot figure out what is holding it in position. Any
>> insights will be much appreciated.
>> -------- David Maib RV-10 #40559
>> Read this topic online here:
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137736#137736
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: battery cable routing |
Don't kid yourself.....one look at his aircraft and and you'll see just how
smart he is. How did it go with Mike on the transistion training=C2-Deem
s?
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 7:56:49 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: battery cable routing
Honesty is admirable. I'm sure it won't make any difference in the long run
. Doesn't look like I will be able to make LOE. Keeping fingers crossed at
keeping schedule open for Copperstate.
On 10/3/07, Deems Davis < deemsdavis@cox.net > wrote:
Kelly, the short answer is, .... I wasn't smart enough to think about
doing it that way.
Deems
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> I'm curious why you would run the extra wires from the battery, Deems?
> My TC aircraft has battery in same location, runs #2 to starter relay,
> where lead connects to same terminal to feed the main bus, and aux
> bus. The starter is only used when there should be absolute minimum
> draw on the buses, and not in use when you need power for all the
> other stuff. Just seems like extra wire and complexity, at first blush.
> Kelly
> Do Not Archive
>
> Deems Davis wrote:
>>
>> Some of it is very dependent on your electrical system architecture
>> and implementation.
>>
>> eg.
>> 1. Are you running a dual battery or dual alt system?
>> 2. Where are you planning on placing the busses? If you put them on
>> one side or the other of the subpanel, it will likely influence which
>> side you run cable on.
>>
>> I ran a #2 Battery to Starter contactor cable on the pilot side for
>> the reasons Tim noted. I also ran a #4 cable on the left side for the
>> main buss & a #10 for the Aux buss, as this is wher e I've located
>> the fuse blocks for the busses.
>>
>> Deems Davis # 406
>> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
>> http://deemsrv10.com/
====
=======================
Message 24
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|
Well....I know this has been covered before, but once again.
I am currently on business in Portland and finally got a chance to sneak down to
Van's for a look. It was the stereotypical Oregon day complete with cloud cover
and mist.
I walked through the door and waited for a couple of customers from France to complete
their transaction ahead of me. It was interesting to witness this as
a reminder of Van's international appeal.
My turn...I was greeted by Joe Blank. He had just completed a factory tour and
it was now lunchtime. I asked when it would be possible for me to get a tour
and without hesitation he said, how about now? Great!!! He said, "give me just
a minute" and I spoke with a couple that had arrived just after me in the
lobby. They were there to get a ride in the RV-12 with Van.
Joe showed me around and had great patience with all my questions and investigation
of the place. Very organized and that CNC sure is cool. Everyone was friendly.
I'm thankful it knows how to punch all those holes in the right spots.
I thanked Joe for the tour and he asked if I ever had a ride in the RV-10. I informed
him that I never even sat in an RV of any kind. I have been building
for over three years on my own project, and haven't even sat in my own. I have
been chipping away at my weight loss and promised myself once I crossed the
90 pound mark, I would reward myself. I finally got to this point and it was
time!
We went to the hangar and saw the awesome collection of factory RVs sitting there.
They must get a really good deal on yellow paint. A few minutes later we
had N410RV outside and my butt in the left seat. Lots of space and the visibility
is awesome.
Joe gave me the passenger briefing and we taxied out to the run up area for Runway
17. On the way there, Van's voice came across the headset anouncing his entry
to the downwind leg with the gentleman I met in the lobby while in the RV-12.
The wind was brisk at about 20 knots and right down the runway. Joe said we would
be off the ground easily within five hundred feet. He advanced the throttle
and I was thoroughly impressed as we rolled out quickly. The nose gear wanted
to get off right away and we were airborne shortly after that. The climb
out was amazing (2100 fpm) and I was shocked by it. The pitch seemed so steep,
I had to look at the ASI and VSI to see if we might stall. Up 'till now I have
been flying a 1974 Piper Warrior 151 as I earned my Private two months ago.
In Colorado Springs with high DA and a little fuel, normal climbout is 300-500
fpm. What a difference!
We flew for awhile staying just under the cloud cover enough for VFR. I was handed
the controls and had a blast at almost 200 mph in straight and level, then
doing 360 turns and finally some slow flight. Never flying a stick before was
interesting but easier to get used to than I thought.
We headed back to the strip and Joe took over. He pulled off a nice landing and
got to hear lots of chatter from me along the way to the hangar.
How blessed we are getting to have this much fun. I can't finish my project quickly
enough, but patience and endurance are necessary sometimes. Back to work
so I can buy an engine!
Sean Blair
#40225
<html><body>
<DIV>Well....I know this has been covered before, but once again.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am currently on business in Portland and finally got a chance to sneak down
to Van's for a look. It was the stereotypical Oregon day complete with
cloud cover and mist. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I walked through the door and waited for a couple of customers from France
to complete their transaction ahead of me. It was interesting to witness
this as a reminder of Van's international appeal.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My turn...I was greeted by Joe Blank. He had just completed a factory
tour and it was now lunchtime. I asked when it would be possible for me
to get a tour and without hesitation he said, how about now? Great!!!
He said, "give me just a minute" and I spoke with a couple that had arrived
just after me in the lobby. They were there to get a ride in the RV-12
with Van.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joe showed me around and had great patience with all my questions and investigation
of the place. Very organized and that CNC sure is cool.
Everyone was friendly. I'm thankful it knows how to punch all those holes
in the right spots.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I thanked Joe for the tour and he asked if I ever had a ride in the RV-10.
I informed him that I never even sat in an RV of any kind.
I have been building for over three years on my own project, and haven't
even sat in my own. I have been chipping away at my weight loss and
promised myself once I crossed the 90 pound mark, I would reward myself.
I finally got to this point and it was time!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We went to the hangar and saw the awesome collection of factory RVs sitting
there. They must get a really good deal on yellow paint. A few minutes
later we had N410RV outside and my butt in the left seat. Lots
of space and the visibility is awesome. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joe gave me the passenger briefing and we taxied out to the run up area for
Runway 17. On the way there, Van's voice came across the headset anouncing
his entry to the downwind leg with the gentleman I met in the lobby while
in the RV-12. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The wind was brisk at about 20 knots and right down the runway. Joe
said we would be off the ground easily within five hundred feet. He
advanced the throttle and I was thoroughly impressed as we rolled out quickly.
The nose gear wanted to get off right away and we were airborne shortly after
that. The climb out was amazing (2100 fpm) and I was shocked
by it. The pitch seemed so steep, I had to look at the ASI and VSI to
see if we might stall. Up 'till now I have been flying a 1974 Piper Warrior
151 as I earned my Private two months ago. In Colorado Springs
with high DA and a little fuel, normal climbout is 300-500 fpm.
What a difference!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We flew for awhile staying just under the cloud cover enough for
VFR. I was handed the controls and had a blast at almost 200 mph in straight
and level, then doing 360 turns and finally some slow flight. Never
flying a stick before was interesting but easier to get used to than
I thought.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We headed back to the strip and Joe took over. He pulled off
a nice landing and got to hear lots of chatter from me along the way to
the hangar. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How blessed we are getting to have this much fun. I can't finish
my project quickly enough, but patience and endurance are necessary sometimes.
Back to work so I can buy an engine!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sean Blair</DIV>
<DIV>#40225
</DIV>
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