Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Henkjan van der Zouw)
2. 01:42 AM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Michael Wellenzohn)
3. 05:27 AM - Re: Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Jesse Saint)
4. 06:22 AM - Re: Re: QB fuselage floors (MauleDriver)
5. 09:21 AM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (John W. Cox)
6. 10:09 AM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (gary)
7. 11:02 AM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Chris Johnston)
8. 11:24 AM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Rick Sked)
9. 11:31 AM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (John W. Cox)
10. 11:34 AM - Re: Rivethead - Aero (Vernon Smith)
11. 12:10 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (David McNeill)
12. 12:25 PM - Re: Crackless (and glazeless) windows - was- Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Deems Davis)
13. 12:35 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Chris Johnston)
14. 01:11 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (gary)
15. 01:14 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (gary)
16. 01:41 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Pascal)
17. 02:18 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Jesse Saint)
18. 02:53 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (John W. Cox)
19. 04:35 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (eagerlee)
20. 04:58 PM - Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? (Jesse Saint)
21. 07:49 PM - Re: Rivethead - Aero (johngoodman)
22. 10:49 PM - instrument selection (David McNeill)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Hi Michael,
I ordered it with no problem at Van's, what is their argument for not
shipping it anymore?
Henkjan
#40355
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Michael Wellenzohn
Verzonden: donderdag 4 oktober 2007 23:06
Aan: rv10-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
<rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
Hello,
since Vans doesn't ship Weld-On 10 internationaly I wonder if you know
of an alternative product to glue the windows in.
Any ideas?
Michael
www.wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (fuselage)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138139#138139
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Wow,
thanks for all your helpful reply. I'll do some more research based on your input.
Henkjan on their website its says below the Weld-On 10
"This item cannot be shipped internationally. Please contact the manufacturers
for availablility in your location."
Davids way surly is good but seems to be quite an undertaking. Is the weld-on route
really likely to produce cracks?
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (fuselage)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138246#138246
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| Subject: | Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
I think we order it in the biggest size Spruce offers, but I don't know how
much that is. A pint (one cup of each?) should be more than enough. You
can add some flox to thicken it up also. Make sure you have the area masked
off well before applying, because this stuff does not like to come off of
whatever it sticks to, especially clothing.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: nick@nleonard.com [mailto:nick@nleonard.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 1:47 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Two questions - Jesse, how much of the FE6026 is required for the five
windows? More than the one pint?
Jim, a friend of mine used the SikaFlex on his GlaStar and loved it (his
windows really look great) but he recommended against using it because
SikaFlex requires a 3/16" bed between the window and the base. We just
don't have that much depth on the -10. Otherwise, I think it would be a
perfect, cost effective, solution.
--------
Nick Leonard
RV-10 (40015) Finish
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138238#138238
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: QB fuselage floors |
Just to round out opinions and possibly to speak for a silent few, I am
not pulling the floors on my #40605.
dmaib@mac.com wrote:
>
> Thanks to all for the tips. I have been out of town and will now know how to
approach this when I get home.
> Once again, this list is priceless.
>
> --------
> David Maib
> RV-10 #40559
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138228#138228
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been
posted by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so
tragic that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to
avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster
than Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great
for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It
would be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never
shared his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the
adhesion of it to the aircraft during initial construction and
windshield replacement procedure. First time builders would love to
know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I
will stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third
sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever
David is "as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure
that was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking
around the edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not
flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per
window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you
do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on
a day by itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the
flange to roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with
a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with
the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the
window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID.
RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil.
Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40
minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with
"fingers" at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50
mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be
smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then
PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and
sand lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up.
The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for
paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get
epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed
using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and
acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Does anyone have a lead on the Satinal Pad mentioned in John's article. A
couple of searches did not produce a supplier.
Gary
40274
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been posted
by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so tragic that the
mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster than
Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great for
cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It would
be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never shared
his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the adhesion of
it to the aircraft during initial construction and windshield replacement
procedure. First time builders would love to know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I will
stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever David is
"as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure that
was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking around the
edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per window,
setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you do one
window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on a day by
itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the flange to
roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with a
slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with the
NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the window.
Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID. RETAPE OFF
THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil. Consistency
should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40 minutes. We
refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with "fingers"
at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50 mixture of
mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be smoothing putty on
outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then PULL THE TAPES BEFORE
IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and sand
lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up. The
windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for paint.
The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get epoxy on
the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed using a clean
cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate
the information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight
mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way
doesn't cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. :-)
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer
to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of
response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead
other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a
thought. I'm sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good
information out of doing so. And I'm equally sure that you didn't
intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you
"old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been
posted by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so
tragic that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to
avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster
than Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great
for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It
would be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never
shared his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the
adhesion of it to the aircraft during initial construction and
windshield replacement procedure. First time builders would love to
know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I
will stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third
sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever
David is "as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure
that was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking
around the edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not
flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per
window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you
do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on
a day by itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the
flange to roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with
a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with
the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the
window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID.
RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil.
Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40
minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with
"fingers" at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50
mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be
smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then
PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and
sand lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up.
The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for
paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get
epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed
using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and
acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
I=C2-agree with CJ on this one, David posted a tried and true method used
by the Glasair crowd with great success, I reposted it after it was asked
for a ways back. I enjoy John's=C2-heady responses from=C2-time to time
but jeeezzz=C2- " Fifth paragraph=C2- Third sentence."=C2- Although
I realize there is an absence of malice in the post, I hope CJ doesn't jump
of a bridge in despair !! Oh wait...he does that for fun...
I forgot to take into consideration=C2-the molecular structure and lubric
ant content of the plastic, hmmm...lubricant? Plastic? Adhesive? Which one
does not go well with a good bond?
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2007 11:00:49 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. =C2- That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? =C2- Oh well, I app
reciate the information, and it is timely as well. =C2- I=99ll stic
k to straight mineral spirits I guess. =C2- And hope that the first windo
w I did that way doesn=99t cause me to come tumbling out of the sky.
=C2- J =C2-
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer to
us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of response, wh
ile informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead other builders w
ith thinner skin to not post questions at all. =C2- Just a thought. =C2
- I=99m sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good inform
ation out of doing so. =C2- And I=99m equally sure that you didn
=99t intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read. =C2
-
Anyway, I=99ll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, an
d you =9Cold fogeys =9D will hopefully keep setting me straight
!
cj =C2-
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been poste
d by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives.=C2- It seems so tragic
that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to avoiding a r
ead.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post =C2-=C2- ht
tp://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture =93 see attached.
Before using ACETONE.=C2- Understand that it is a great solvent, faster t
han Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual.=C2- Is grea
t for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together.=C2- When used
on Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural lub
ricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of AC
ETONE touching your windows.=C2- They are a real bitch to replace.=C2-
It would be unfortunate not to revisit this subject.=C2- Also, Jesse has
never shared his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the
adhesion of it to the aircraft during initial construction and windshield
replacement procedure.=C2- First time builders would love to know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys.=C2- I
will stand by my source of LP Plastics.=C2- Fifth paragraph=C2- Third
sentence.
Been there, done that, won=99t ever, ever consider it again =93
whoever David is =9Cas provided=9D.
John =93 not worth more than $00.02
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method.=C2- Haven=99
t finished (need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the pr
ocedure that was recommended to install windows so you don=99t get an
y cracking around the edge.=C2- =C2- Seems to work good.=C2- So far n
o cracking J =C2- (not flying)=C2- cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per window, s
etup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you do one windo
w to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on a day by itself
.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M Fine
line (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and outsi
de of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it easy to
pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the flange t
o roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with a
slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is adequat
ely taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with the
NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the window.
Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID. RETAPE OFF
THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil. Consistency
should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40 minutes. We refri
gerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of ca
talyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with "fingers" at
the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50 mixture o
f mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be smoothing putty on
outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then PULL THE TAPES BEFOR
E IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and sand
lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the fl
ange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar proc
edure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up. =C2-
The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the al
uminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for paint. T
he sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.=C2-
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get epoxy o
n the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed using a clean
cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not co
me off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
=C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.ma
tronics.com =C2- =C2- http://forums.matronics.com =C2- =C2- http://
==================
Message 9
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
No, the barb was for whoever "as provided by David" is... that led you
astray down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time
that Tim has invested. "Thanks again Tim!" So future builders do not
stub their toes on the same rocks along Life's Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has
gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft..
Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can't share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good
thing after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who
doesn't get crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris - keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of
great ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking
at a CNC mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate
the information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight
mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way
doesn't cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. :-)
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer
to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of
response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead
other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a
thought. I'm sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good
information out of doing so. And I'm equally sure that you didn't
intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you
"old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been
posted by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so
tragic that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to
avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster
than Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great
for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It
would be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never
shared his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the
adhesion of it to the aircraft during initial construction and
windshield replacement procedure. First time builders would love to
know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I
will stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third
sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever
David is "as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure
that was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking
around the edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not
flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per
window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you
do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on
a day by itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the
flange to roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with
a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with
the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the
window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID.
RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil.
Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40
minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with
"fingers" at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50
mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be
smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then
PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and
sand lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up.
The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for
paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get
epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed
using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and
acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Rivethead - Aero |
Received my door guides and pins yesterday. They were ordered a little over
2 months ago. So things are going out the door but very slowly. Rivetheads
website is backup and running, it was shutdown for a while. Here is a emai
l sent to me from David on 9/19/07 explaining the situation.
Vern Smith (324 cabin top) do not archive
RV Builder / Owner:
I apologize for the lack of communication concerning the status
or your order. Over the past weeks I have been working to complete open o
rders. If your parts have not shipped yet, they will be on the way very sh
ortly. I appreciate your frustration.
I assure you Full Throttle Concepts will continue to provide and support th
ese products. I am very thankful to every member of the RV community for t
heir support. My intent is to provide parts of good quality, and I want ea
ch person to be satisfied years after their purchase.
I will be temporarily suspending new web orders as I concentrate on complet
ing orders and building inventory. I will also use this time implement mor
e efficient tooling and programming in the production processes. In an eff
ort to provide better communication concerning order status, stock level a
nd lead time information will be added to the website.
Again, I am very thankful to all of the people in the RV community for thei
r support over the years. Keeping pace with this group can be challenging,
but for me it is very rewarding. I enjoy this work very much and I will c
ontinue to improve my service.
Sincerely,
David Czachorowski
e: RV10-List: Rivethead - AeroTo: rv10-list@matronics.com
this is standard operating procedure. It's a side job, very busy, so on and
so forth. You should have the stuff for christmas ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: GenGrumpy@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:36 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Rivethead - Aero
Anyone on the list have any clue what's going on with Rivethead (AKA Full T
hrottle)?
I ordered the rudder cable brackets from them 2 weeks ago, they've been pai
d, but I can't get them to either return phone calls or answer emails on th
e status of the order.
Do we have another D2 Avionics debacle here??
grumpy
N184JM
DO NOT ARCHIVE
See what's ne="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_________________________________________________________________
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Stop
by today.
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Oc
tWLtagline
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
I am the David and I did not suggest using acetone on any part of the
window that is a vieiwing area. All veiwing ares were protected with
signprint.The window flanges were scuffed and cleaned with acetone. and
excess resin (when installing) was cleaned up with a 50/50 mixture of
mineral spirits and acetone. The procedeure I relayed is a procedure
that Phoenix Composities has been using on Glasairs and lancairs for
years with good results..
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Cox
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever "as provided by David" is. that led you
astray down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of
time that Tim has invested. "Thanks again Tim!" So future builders do
not stub their toes on the same rocks along Life's Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he
has gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of
aircraft.. Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window,
Aye?
If we can't share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good
thing after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who
doesn't get crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris - keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of
great ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking
at a CNC mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate
the information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight
mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way
doesn't cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. J
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you
offer to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of
response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead
other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a
thought. I'm sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good
information out of doing so. And I'm equally sure that you didn't
intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and
you "old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been
posted by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so
tragic that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to
avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster
than Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great
for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence
of ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It
would be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never
shared his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the
adhesion of it to the aircraft during initial construction and
windshield replacement procedure. First time builders would love to
know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I
will stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third
sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever
David is "as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't
finished (need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the
procedure that was recommended to install windows so you don't get any
cracking around the edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking J
(not flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per
window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you
do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on
a day by itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the
flange to roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ;
with a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other
is adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place
with the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside
the window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE
LID. RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil.
Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40
minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount
of catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with
"fingers" at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50
mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be
smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then
PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and
sand lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover
the flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the
Glastar procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass
sets up. The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of
glass on the aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for
paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get
epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed
using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and
acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does
not come off when finally removing the protective covering before
flight.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Crackless (and glazeless) windows - was- Alternatives |
for Weld On 10?
Amid all of the din re Acetone and plexiglass, I hope that his method
for installing the windows does not become a victim of the hubub. One
need only look among the rows of RV-10's @ OSH to find evidence of the
cracking in the paint for those who've used Weld On to attach their
windows. If you want to avoid the inevitable cracks I encourage you to
consider 'David's' ;-) (Phoenix Composites) process.
(PS I've got 5 containers/kits of Weld-on 10 available to the 1st person
to pay the shipping/handling)
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
David McNeill wrote:
> I am the David and I did not suggest using acetone on any part of the
> window that is a vieiwing area. All veiwing ares were protected with
> signprint.The window flanges were scuffed and cleaned with acetone.
> and excess resin (when installing) was cleaned up with a 50/50 mixture
> of mineral spirits and acetone. The procedeure I relayed is a
> procedure that Phoenix Composities has been using on Glasairs and
> lancairs for years with good results..
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* John W. Cox <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2007 11:27 AM
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
>
>
> No, the barb was for whoever as provided by David is that led
> you astray down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
>
> There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of
> time that Tim has invested. Thanks again Tim! So future builders
> do not stub their toes on the same rocks along Lifes Highway.
>
> Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise
> he has gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of
> aircraft.. Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front
> window, Aye?
>
> If we cant share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a
> good thing after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder
> who doesnt get crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
>
> Chris keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots
> of great ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even
> looking at a CNC mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
>
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris
> Johnston
> *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
>
> Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I
> appreciate the information, and it is timely as well. Ill stick
> to straight mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first
> window I did that way doesnt cause me to come tumbling out of the
> sky. J
>
> John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you
> offer to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this
> type of response, while informative and very very helpful, could
> possibly lead other builders with thinner skin to not post
> questions at all. Just a thought. Im sure glad I opened my mouth,
> because I got some good information out of doing so. And Im
> equally sure that you didnt intend your email to be as pointy as
> it sounded on first read.
>
> Anyway, Ill keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of,
> and you old fogeys will hopefully keep setting me straight!
>
> cj
>
> (research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John
> W. Cox
> *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
>
> Whoa, Chris
>
> Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has
> been posted by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It
> seems so tragic that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly
> resurfaced due to avoiding a read.
>
> For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
> http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
>
> For those who need a picture see attached.
>
> Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent,
> faster than Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a
> residual. Is great for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins
> together. When used on Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft
> windows) it dehydrates natural lubricants which inhibit crazing.
>
> Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the
> consequence of ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real
> bitch to replace. It would be unfortunate not to revisit this
> subject. Also, Jesse has never shared his process for replacement
> of that damaged windscreen and the adhesion of it to the aircraft
> during initial construction and windshield replacement procedure.
> First time builders would love to know.
>
> Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old
> fogeys. I will stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph
> Third sentence.
>
> Been there, done that, wont ever, ever consider it again
> whoever David is as provided.
>
> John not worth more than $00.02
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris
> Johnston
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
>
> I did my first window the other day using this method. Havent
> finished (need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was
> the procedure that was recommended to install windows so you dont
> get any cracking around the edge. Seems to work good. So far no
> cracking J (not flying) cj
>
> As provided by David:
>
> Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per
> window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend
> that you do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the
> windshield on a day by itself.
>
> (0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window
> using 3M Fineline (.5 width)
>
> (1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside
> and outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as
> this makes it easy to pull off.
>
> (2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the
> flange to roughen the glass for adhesion.
>
> (3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
>
> (4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3"
> ; with a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and
> the other is adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
>
> (5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place
> with the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50"
> outside the window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT
> THROUGH THE LID. RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
>
> (6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil.
> Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be
> 30-40 minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
>
> (7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small
> amount of catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in
> place with "fingers" at the preplanned locations.
>
> (8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50
> mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be
> smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off
> later. then PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES.
>
> (9) allow to cure 24 hours.
>
> (10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass
> and sand lightly.
>
> (11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then
> cover the flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this
> was the Glastar procedure.) **Remember to pull the tape before the
> layered glass sets up.** The windscreen on the RV10 requires a
> different layering of glass on the aluminum.
>
> (12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for
> paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
>
> (13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
>
> (14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally
> get epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely
> removed using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral
> spirits and acetone. **Have it handy.**
>
> (15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that
> does not come off when finally removing the protective covering
> before flight.
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *< Forum Email RV10-List The ->< to Navigator Features List Matronics>< Subscriptions the as such utilities>< Chat, Browse, 7-Day Download,>< much and Photoshare,>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> *< - FORUMS WEB MATRONICS NEW>< Web via available also now content>http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> *< Forum Email RV10-List The - >*
>
> *< to Navigator Features List Matronics>*
>
> *< Subscriptions the as such utilities>*
>
> *< Chat, Browse, 7-Day Download, & Search>*
>
> *< much and Photoshare,>*
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> **
>
> *< - FORUMS WEB MATRONICS NEW >*
>
> *< Web via available also now content>*
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 13
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Tell you what... you can call me "craze-y" if I can call you "barb-ra"!
hehe. No, in all seriousness, I take all responsibility for trundling
down whatever path I trundle down... no steam gauges, acetone on my
windows... you name it. Just because someone says "you should do this!"
or "I did it this way!" doesn't mean you should follow. If all your
friends jumped off a building, would you? oh wait... my friends do, and
so do I. My point is, as a builder, and especially as a first-timer,
all you can do is do the research, and make the best decision that you
can. Sometimes, you miss something, as I appear to have in this
instance. At those times, I appreciate when folks like you poke me in
the eye and show me that I missed some crucial piece of info. I do
think that the info provided to us by David McNeil is valuable, and
maybe your post would be well served as an edit or addendum to a
procedure that seems to have enjoyed good results. You know... in a
positive way. In that spirit, I'll suggest that the original cleaning
of the sanded edges of the window be done with good ole water, and the
cleanup done with straight mineral spirits. All else in the procedure
to remain what it is. Thoughts? Constructive criticism?
cj
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever "as provided by David" is... that led you
astray down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time
that Tim has invested. "Thanks again Tim!" So future builders do not
stub their toes on the same rocks along Life's Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has
gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft..
Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can't share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good
thing after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who
doesn't get crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris - keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of
great ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking
at a CNC mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate
the information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight
mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way
doesn't cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. :-)
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer
to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of
response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead
other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a
thought. I'm sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good
information out of doing so. And I'm equally sure that you didn't
intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you
"old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been
posted by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so
tragic that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to
avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster
than Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great
for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It
would be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never
shared his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the
adhesion of it to the aircraft during initial construction and
windshield replacement procedure. First time builders would love to
know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I
will stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third
sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever
David is "as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure
that was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking
around the edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not
flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per
window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you
do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on
a day by itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the
flange to roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with
a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with
the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the
window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID.
RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil.
Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40
minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with
"fingers" at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50
mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be
smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then
PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and
sand lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up.
The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for
paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get
epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed
using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and
acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Not only Phoenix Composites but hundreds of Glasair and Glastar builders
over the years. As David said use Acetone only on the area to be bonded and
only a small amount. As with anything, if a little is good, more is not
necessarily better. Try breathing humidified air as apposed to 100% water.
Gary
40274
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I am the David and I did not suggest using acetone on any part of the window
that is a vieiwing area. All veiwing ares were protected with signprint.The
window flanges were scuffed and cleaned with acetone. and excess resin (when
installing) was cleaned up with a 50/50 mixture of mineral spirits and
acetone. The procedeure I relayed is a procedure that Phoenix Composities
has been using on Glasairs and lancairs for years with good results..
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Cox <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever "as provided by David" is. that led you astray
down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time that
Tim has invested. "Thanks again Tim!" So future builders do not stub their
toes on the same rocks along Life's Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has
gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft..
Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can't share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good thing
after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who doesn't get
crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris - keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of great
ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking at a CNC
mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate the
information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight mineral
spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way doesn't
cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. :-)
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer to
us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of response,
while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead other builders
with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a thought. I'm sure
glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good information out of doing so.
And I'm equally sure that you didn't intend your email to be as pointy as it
sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you
"old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been posted
by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so tragic that the
mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster than
Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great for
cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It would
be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never shared
his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the adhesion of
it to the aircraft during initial construction and windshield replacement
procedure. First time builders would love to know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I will
stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever David is
"as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure that
was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking around the
edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per window,
setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you do one
window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on a day by
itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the flange to
roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with a
slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with the
NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the window.
Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID. RETAPE OFF
THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil. Consistency
should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40 minutes. We
refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with "fingers"
at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50 mixture of
mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be smoothing putty on
outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then PULL THE TAPES BEFORE
IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and sand
lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up. The
windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for paint.
The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get epoxy on
the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed using a clean
cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Cleaning with mineral spirits leaves a thin film that resists bonding by
epoxy. Don't tinker with a successful procedure proven over the years by
many builders.
Gary
40274
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Tell you what. you can call me "craze-y" if I can call you "barb-ra"!
hehe. No, in all seriousness, I take all responsibility for trundling down
whatever path I trundle down. no steam gauges, acetone on my windows. you
name it. Just because someone says "you should do this!" or "I did it this
way!" doesn't mean you should follow. If all your friends jumped off a
building, would you? oh wait. my friends do, and so do I. My point is, as
a builder, and especially as a first-timer, all you can do is do the
research, and make the best decision that you can. Sometimes, you miss
something, as I appear to have in this instance. At those times, I
appreciate when folks like you poke me in the eye and show me that I missed
some crucial piece of info. I do think that the info provided to us by
David McNeil is valuable, and maybe your post would be well served as an
edit or addendum to a procedure that seems to have enjoyed good results.
You know. in a positive way. In that spirit, I'll suggest that the original
cleaning of the sanded edges of the window be done with good ole water, and
the cleanup done with straight mineral spirits. All else in the procedure
to remain what it is. Thoughts? Constructive criticism?
cj
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever "as provided by David" is. that led you astray
down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time that
Tim has invested. "Thanks again Tim!" So future builders do not stub their
toes on the same rocks along Life's Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has
gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft..
Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can't share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good thing
after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who doesn't get
crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris - keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of great
ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking at a CNC
mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate the
information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight mineral
spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way doesn't
cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. :-)
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer to
us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of response,
while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead other builders
with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a thought. I'm sure
glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good information out of doing so.
And I'm equally sure that you didn't intend your email to be as pointy as it
sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you
"old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been posted
by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so tragic that the
mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster than
Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great for
cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It would
be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never shared
his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the adhesion of
it to the aircraft during initial construction and windshield replacement
procedure. First time builders would love to know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I will
stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever David is
"as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure that
was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking around the
edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per window,
setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you do one
window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on a day by
itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the flange to
roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with a
slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with the
NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the window.
Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID. RETAPE OFF
THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil. Consistency
should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40 minutes. We
refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with "fingers"
at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50 mixture of
mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be smoothing putty on
outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then PULL THE TAPES BEFORE
IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and sand
lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up. The
windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for paint.
The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get epoxy on
the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed using a clean
cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
--> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Use Simple green full strength on the aluminum and plexiglass and all
will be well.. right??
Well I too was shot down by John and I didn't take it personally nor I
hope do those who ask dumb questions. But I am in the middle here. John
made a pointed counter argument for why Acetone can be disasterous just
as he did about using Simple green on Aluminum. I appreciate the
response, both on my simple green and on the acetone.. why? I feel his
passion or is it concern for us as an A&P and although many saw it as
rough, the paragraph was fine if I knew were to find it as a reference
to back up his comments.
I am also with David and Rick for giving the detailed instructions and
sharing it with the group
I am also with Chris in that people should ask the dumb questions and
get shot down versus not and having a good DAR do it for you at the
inspection.
Not that this is my blog or anything but as a forum we should challenge
each other if we know there may be a reason not to use someones
suggestions. If as builders we can't think for ourselves (like the
gasket for the fuel tank- use it or not?) than we need to ask ourselves
what were doing here..
BTW- if anyone doesn't know Simple Green industrial (not the airplane
version) is acid to aluminum- DONT use it even diluted- we have John to
thank for that.
Rick thanks for sharing
I have seen worse on this forum and than I hear the same people are
buying each other beers at OSH each year.
Pascal
One day I too will need to worry about weld on, acetone and mixing
ammonia and chlorine together to get a perfect bond for my plexiglass
until than where's that bondo for my dents?.
From: Rick Sked
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I agree with CJ on this one, David posted a tried and true method used
by the Glasair crowd with great success, I reposted it after it was
asked for a ways back. I enjoy John's heady responses from time to time
but jeeezzz "Fifth paragraph Third sentence." Although I realize
there is an absence of malice in the post, I hope CJ doesn't jump of a
bridge in despair !! Oh wait...he does that for fun...
I forgot to take into consideration the molecular structure and
lubricant content of the plastic, hmmm...lubricant? Plastic? Adhesive?
Which one does not go well with a good bond?
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2007 11:00:49 AM (GMT-0800)
America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate
the information, and it is timely as well. I=99ll stick to
straight mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did
that way doesn=99t cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. J
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you
offer to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of
response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead
other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a
thought. I=99m sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some
good information out of doing so. And I=99m equally sure that you
didn=99t intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first
read.
Anyway, I=99ll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think
of, and you =9Cold fogeys=9D will hopefully keep setting me
straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been
posted by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so
tragic that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to
avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture =93 see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster
than Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great
for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence
of ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It
would be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never
shared his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the
adhesion of it to the aircraft during initial construction and
windshield replacement procedure. First time builders would love to
know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I
will stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third
sentence.
Been there, done that, won=99t ever, ever consider it again
=93 whoever David is =9Cas provided=9D.
John =93 not worth more than $00.02
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method.
Haven=99t finished (need to lay the glass around the perimeter)
but this was the procedure that was recommended to install windows so
you don=99t get any cracking around the edge. Seems to work
good. So far no cracking J (not flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per
window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you
do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on
a day by itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the
flange to roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ;
with a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other
is adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place
with the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside
the window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE
LID. RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil.
Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40
minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount
of catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with
"fingers" at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50
mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be
smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then
PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and
sand lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover
the flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the
Glastar procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass
sets up. The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of
glass on the aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for
paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get
epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed
using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and
acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does
not come off when finally removing the protective covering before
flight.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
t; http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Ok, ok, ok, John. I will recount my experience in short. I'm in Ecuador
right now and working long days, so don't have much time to e-mail. The
short of it is that I used a rubber mallet to break the pieces of plexi
loose from the glue, as the middle of the windshield was already broken by
whatever part of the Columbia hit it. It came off fairly clean, but not too
easily. The weakest link in the system is definitely the polycarbonate to
glue joint and the polycarbonate to fiberglass joint on the fairing, but it
was a pretty strong bond. From there I just ground down the glue (the
FE6026 stuff) with a die grinder with a sanding disk on it, cleaned up the
glare shield again and started over with a new windshield.
Not a fun job.
Mark Ritter also replaced a windshield, I think. Mark, what was your
experience?
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: John W. Cox [mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever "as provided by David" is. that led you astray
down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time that
Tim has invested. "Thanks again Tim!" So future builders do not stub their
toes on the same rocks along Life's Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has
gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft..
Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can't share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good thing
after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who doesn't get
crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris - keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of great
ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking at a CNC
mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate the
information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight mineral
spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way doesn't
cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. :-)
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer to
us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of response,
while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead other builders
with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a thought. I'm sure
glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good information out of doing so.
And I'm equally sure that you didn't intend your email to be as pointy as it
sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you
"old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been posted
by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so tragic that the
mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster than
Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great for
cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It would
be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never shared
his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the adhesion of
it to the aircraft during initial construction and windshield replacement
procedure. First time builders would love to know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I will
stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever David is
"as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure that
was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking around the
edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per window,
setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you do one
window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on a day by
itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the flange to
roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with a
slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with the
NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the window.
Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID. RETAPE OFF
THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil. Consistency
should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40 minutes. We
refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with "fingers"
at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50 mixture of
mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be smoothing putty on
outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then PULL THE TAPES BEFORE
IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and sand
lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up. The
windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for paint.
The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get epoxy on
the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed using a clean
cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 18
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
Jesse - thanks and any photos (when you return north) would help clarify
the process. Mark are you game on your experience. Our goal is
long-term and solid adhesion of the window material to the composite
canopy through all types of flying experiences.
I guess too many builders are suffering from Acetone addiction for a
Friday.
The attached photo was NOT acetone induced.
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ok, ok, ok, John. I will recount my experience in short. I'm in
Ecuador right now and working long days, so don't have much time to
e-mail. The short of it is that I used a rubber mallet to break the
pieces of plexi loose from the glue, as the middle of the windshield was
already broken by whatever part of the Columbia hit it. It came off
fairly clean, but not too easily. The weakest link in the system is
definitely the polycarbonate to glue joint and the polycarbonate to
fiberglass joint on the fairing, but it was a pretty strong bond. From
there I just ground down the glue (the FE6026 stuff) with a die grinder
with a sanding disk on it, cleaned up the glare shield again and started
over with a new windshield.
Not a fun job.
Mark Ritter also replaced a windshield, I think. Mark, what was your
experience?
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
________________________________
From: John W. Cox [mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever "as provided by David" is... that led you
astray down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time
that Tim has invested. "Thanks again Tim!" So future builders do not
stub their toes on the same rocks along Life's Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has
gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft..
Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can't share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good
thing after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who
doesn't get crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris - keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of
great ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking
at a CNC mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate
the information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight
mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way
doesn't cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. :-)
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer
to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of
response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead
other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a
thought. I'm sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good
information out of doing so. And I'm equally sure that you didn't
intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you
"old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been
posted by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so
tragic that the mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to
avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster
than Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great
for cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It
would be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never
shared his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the
adhesion of it to the aircraft during initial construction and
windshield replacement procedure. First time builders would love to
know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I
will stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third
sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever
David is "as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure
that was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking
around the edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not
flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per
window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you
do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on
a day by itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the
flange to roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with
a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with
the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the
window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID.
RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil.
Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40
minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with
"fingers" at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50
mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be
smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then
PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and
sand lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up.
The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for
paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get
epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed
using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and
acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
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| Subject: | Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
have the builders considered the total strength of the cabin when choosing to install
windows and windscreen with a 2 part epoxy mixed with chopped fibers?
I have no doubt the Plexiglas will stay in place during all regimens of flight,
but what happens if one should find oneself UWOF? Will the cabin be as good
a protector with glassed in windows as it would be with "weldon-10" glued windows?
In other words, did Vans Aircraft engineer this aspect of construction?
I would like to do the fiberglass method myself, but I'll probably consult on
the builder assist line first, unless someone here has already done so. Also,
doesn't alchohol make a good plexi cleaner?
Paul Hahn
#40203 , finishing kit on order
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138396#138396
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| Subject: | Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
This is the best of what I have. Sorry for the mugshot, but it's a little
better than the alternative.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: John W. Cox [mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Jesse - thanks and any photos (when you return north) would help clarify the
process. Mark are you game on your experience. Our goal is long-term and
solid adhesion of the window material to the composite canopy through all
types of flying experiences.
I guess too many builders are suffering from Acetone addiction for a Friday.
The attached photo was NOT acetone induced.
John
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ok, ok, ok, John. I will recount my experience in short. I'm in Ecuador
right now and working long days, so don't have much time to e-mail. The
short of it is that I used a rubber mallet to break the pieces of plexi
loose from the glue, as the middle of the windshield was already broken by
whatever part of the Columbia hit it. It came off fairly clean, but not too
easily. The weakest link in the system is definitely the polycarbonate to
glue joint and the polycarbonate to fiberglass joint on the fairing, but it
was a pretty strong bond. From there I just ground down the glue (the
FE6026 stuff) with a die grinder with a sanding disk on it, cleaned up the
glare shield again and started over with a new windshield.
Not a fun job.
Mark Ritter also replaced a windshield, I think. Mark, what was your
experience?
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: John W. Cox [mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever "as provided by David" is. that led you astray
down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time that
Tim has invested. "Thanks again Tim!" So future builders do not stub their
toes on the same rocks along Life's Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has
gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft..
Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can't share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good thing
after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who doesn't get
crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris - keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of great
ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking at a CNC
mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate the
information, and it is timely as well. I'll stick to straight mineral
spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way doesn't
cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. :-)
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer to
us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of response,
while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead other builders
with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a thought. I'm sure
glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good information out of doing so.
And I'm equally sure that you didn't intend your email to be as pointy as it
sounded on first read.
Anyway, I'll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you
"old fogeys" will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Whoa, Chris
Every now and then, I mention the wealth of information that has been posted
by Tim Olson and our RV-10 University archives. It seems so tragic that the
mistakes of a few can be repeatedly resurfaced due to avoiding a read.
For those who chose to be research impaired, here is a post
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/maintenance/plexi/Care_of_Plexi.pdf
For those who need a picture - see attached.
Before using ACETONE. Understand that it is a great solvent, faster than
Isopropyl Alcohol, slower than MEK and leaves a residual. Is great for
cleaning composites prior to bonding skins together. When used on
Plexiglas, Lexan or Acrylic (aircraft windows) it dehydrates natural
lubricants which inhibit crazing.
Go ask an aircraft window supplier what they think is the consequence of
ACETONE touching your windows. They are a real bitch to replace. It would
be unfortunate not to revisit this subject. Also, Jesse has never shared
his process for replacement of that damaged windscreen and the adhesion of
it to the aircraft during initial construction and windshield replacement
procedure. First time builders would love to know.
Sorry Chris, your enthusiasm can sometimes overwhelm us old fogeys. I will
stand by my source of LP Plastics. Fifth paragraph Third sentence.
Been there, done that, won't ever, ever consider it again - whoever David is
"as provided".
John - not worth more than $00.02
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I did my first window the other day using this method. Haven't finished
(need to lay the glass around the perimeter) but this was the procedure that
was recommended to install windows so you don't get any cracking around the
edge. Seems to work good. So far no cracking :-) (not flying) cj
As provided by David:
Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per window,
setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you do one
window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on a day by
itself.
(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M
Fineline (.5 width)
(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and
outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it
easy to pull off.
(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the flange to
roughen the glass for adhesion.
(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE
(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with a
slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is
adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture.
(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with the
NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the window.
Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID. RETAPE OFF
THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .
(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil. Consistency
should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40 minutes. We
refrigerated it to further slow the cure.
(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of
catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with "fingers"
at the preplanned locations.
(8) inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50 mixture of
mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be smoothing putty on
outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then PULL THE TAPES BEFORE
IT CURES.
(9) allow to cure 24 hours.
(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and sand
lightly.
(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the
flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar
procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up. The
windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the
aluminum.
(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for paint.
The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.
(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange.
(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get epoxy on
the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed using a clean
cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and acetone. Have it handy.
(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not
come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Rivethead - Aero |
Grumpy,
I had the same problem last year. He'll eventually get to you and they are beautiful.
I keep the old ones right next to my plans to remind me that there are
alternatives.
John
--------
#40572 Empennage done, starting QB Wings
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138427#138427
Message 22
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| Subject: | instrument selection |
Aren't we glad that there are experimental EFISs out there that have TAWS or
terrain warnings (Chelton, GRT, etc)? Last night a medical flight hit a
ridge below the MSA in the vicinity of Alamosa CO. Although only preliminary
information exists, the flight was 25 miles southwest of the airport when
ATC lost contact with the flight about 0100 MST. Given that the aircraft was
a King Air and was probably on an IFR flight plan it was possibly cleared
for a visual approach or possibly the ILS 2 to KALS. If any KALS approach
plate was examined it would indicate that the MSA for their location was
about 13000 MSL. According to news reports it hit a ridge at about 11700
MSL. These kinds of accidents always make me wonder about the slow migration
of experimental TAWS into certified aviation.
Also of interest will be whether the (if ILS 2 approach) required ATC
terminology was used for the approach clearance. Ever heard "cleared for the
X approach, maintain y altitude until established etc." That "maintain y
altitude" was not there until in the early 1970s a TWA 727 hit a ridge
outside Dulles airport in DC. The pilot had been cleared for the approach
about 20 miles from the final approach fix and he descended to the FAF
altitude and hit an intervening ridge. When a number of other airline pilots
were interviewed they indicated that they would have done the same thing;
hence the additional phraseology.
Anyway when choosing instrumentation for your 10 (whether IFR or night VFR)
, I suggest you consider terrain warning capability.
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