---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/24/07: 48 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:36 AM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (John Dunne) 2. 01:59 AM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (Patrick ONeill) 3. 02:16 AM - Re: cabin top trimming (Russell Daves) 4. 03:55 AM - Re: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem (Rob Kermanj) 5. 03:59 AM - Re: Family project (Bob Leffler) 6. 05:30 AM - Re: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem (darnpilot@aol.com) 7. 06:04 AM - Re: Family project (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 8. 06:06 AM - Re: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem (darnpilot@aol.com) 9. 06:35 AM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (Tim Olson) 10. 07:01 AM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (Rick Sked) 11. 07:06 AM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (Jesse Saint) 12. 07:22 AM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 13. 07:36 AM - Re: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes (Vernon Smith) 14. 07:44 AM - Re: Family project (Rick Sked) 15. 07:56 AM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (John Gonzalez) 16. 08:04 AM - Re: Seat rivets LP4-3 vs CS4-4 (Vernon Smith) 17. 08:44 AM - Re: Family project (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 18. 09:22 AM - Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (John Hurst) 19. 09:34 AM - Re: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (Ralph E. Capen) 20. 09:40 AM - Re: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (Jesse Saint) 21. 09:45 AM - Re: Family project (Vernon Smith) 22. 10:47 AM - Re: Seat rivets LP4-3 vs CS4-4 (Jae Chang) 23. 10:53 AM - Re: FW: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes (Jae Chang) 24. 10:54 AM - Re: cabin top trimming (Chris Johnston) 25. 11:06 AM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (Bill DeRouchey) 26. 11:12 AM - Re: FW: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes (LES KEARNEY) 27. 11:34 AM - Re: Seat rivets LP4-3 vs CS4-4 (Patrick Thyssen) 28. 12:55 PM - New product annoucement (=?utf-8?B?Qm9iIE5ld21hbg==?=) 29. 01:55 PM - Re: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (linn Walters) 30. 02:23 PM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (ddddsp1@juno.com) 31. 02:55 PM - Re: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (Rick Sked) 32. 03:00 PM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (Rick Sked) 33. 03:09 PM - Static ports (Deems Davis) 34. 03:31 PM - Static ports Picture link (Deems Davis) 35. 03:42 PM - Re: Static ports (Bill DeRouchey) 36. 04:08 PM - Re: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (Jesse Saint) 37. 04:09 PM - Re: Static ports (Patrick ONeill) 38. 04:35 PM - Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (bcondrey) 39. 04:58 PM - Re: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (Rene Felker) 40. 05:06 PM - Stall warning location (plevenda@jvlv.lv) 41. 05:41 PM - Re: Stall warning location (Marcus Cooper) 42. 05:41 PM - Re: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (Jesse Saint) 43. 05:51 PM - Vertical Power (Jesse Saint) 44. 05:59 PM - Re: Stall warning location (Tim Olson) 45. 06:41 PM - Re: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? (John W. Cox) 46. 06:44 PM - Re: Static ports (John W. Cox) 47. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 (Kelly McMullen) 48. 11:07 PM - Re: Static ports (AirMike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:37 AM PST US From: "John Dunne" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 ....and hospital bills for back repairs and expensive glasses so you can still see the real world exists outside your shed, a new CD library because the neighbours are threatening to sue if you play anymore 70's and 80's music, a new dog; one that won't bark at you when you go near your own house, a flame suit for making stupid comments on the matronics list, a divorce lawyer, and don't forget the cost of keeping your friends entertained with that new, bright red, itchy, clowns nose that no-one believes is fibreglass allergy. And public liability insurance for your neighbours, who all march their kids to the other side of the street when they see you coming, whispering, "There's that meatloaf idiot who's going to try to fly his bat plane out of his shed and hopefully miss our house.... Don't forget the expense of lots of flowers and lots of apology cards..."Sorry I missed our special day" (insert here...wedding, anniversary, funeral, Caribbean cruise) Buy an LSA off the shelf and miss all the fun? Not this cave dweller! What do ya say Wilson? Ready for a beer? Cost? What cost Skys the limit. My two cents worth. hmmm at $0.90 that's $0.018 alrighty then, where's that Vans catalogue? Do not archive. John 40319 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 3:53 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 Amen - and throw in a crappy US dollar exchange rate of say $0.75 on average over the kit purchase price, and then overseas freight + GST at 10% on top of the lot and the pain is far greater! If you want all new parts (engine etc) don't expect to get by for less than $200k in Oz - unless the Aussie dollar continues its drive above US$0.90 ;-> Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AirMike Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 2:56 PM Subject: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: 1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run $48,325 2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min $ 2,500 3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540 min $40,000 4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical $ 2,000 5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender $1,000 6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above) $6,260 7. Paint it yourself materials only $2,000 8. Interior (do you want it to look nice) minimum $2,000 9. Firewall forward kit from vans (no throtle quad) $6,000 _________ Total $110,000 OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP = min $10,000 Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000 This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS - No builders assist (classes)- no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no screw ups where you need to replace parts - nothing extra In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a decent panel when you are going 200mph. Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000 -------- OSH '08 or Bust Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449 "Warning: The information contained in this email and any attached files is confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to your computer." ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:55 AM PST US From: "Patrick ONeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 While we're at it, don't forget the cost of the extra food for the approximately 340,000 calories you will burn while building the plane. Best Regards, Patrick #40715 Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Dunne Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:36 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 ....and hospital bills for back repairs and expensive glasses so you can still see the real world exists outside your shed, a new CD library because the neighbours are threatening to sue if you play anymore 70's and 80's music, a new dog; one that won't bark at you when you go near your own house, a flame suit for making stupid comments on the matronics list, a divorce lawyer, and don't forget the cost of keeping your friends entertained with that new, bright red, itchy, clowns nose that no-one believes is fibreglass allergy. And public liability insurance for your neighbours, who all march their kids to the other side of the street when they see you coming, whispering, "There's that meatloaf idiot who's going to try to fly his bat plane out of his shed and hopefully miss our house.... Don't forget the expense of lots of flowers and lots of apology cards..."Sorry I missed our special day" (insert here...wedding, anniversary, funeral, Caribbean cruise) Buy an LSA off the shelf and miss all the fun? Not this cave dweller! What do ya say Wilson? Ready for a beer? Cost? What cost Skys the limit. My two cents worth. hmmm at $0.90 that's $0.018 alrighty then, where's that Vans catalogue? Do not archive. John 40319 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 3:53 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 Amen - and throw in a crappy US dollar exchange rate of say $0.75 on average over the kit purchase price, and then overseas freight + GST at 10% on top of the lot and the pain is far greater! If you want all new parts (engine etc) don't expect to get by for less than $200k in Oz - unless the Aussie dollar continues its drive above US$0.90 ;-> Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AirMike Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 2:56 PM Subject: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: 1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run $48,325 2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min $ 2,500 3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540 min $40,000 4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical $ 2,000 5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender $1,000 6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above) $6,260 7. Paint it yourself materials only $2,000 8. Interior (do you want it to look nice) minimum $2,000 9. Firewall forward kit from vans (no throtle quad) $6,000 _________ Total $110,000 OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP = min $10,000 Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000 This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS - No builders assist (classes)- no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no screw ups where you need to replace parts - nothing extra In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a decent panel when you are going 200mph. Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000 -------- OSH '08 or Bust Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449 "Warning: The information contained in this email and any attached files is confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to your computer." ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:28 AM PST US From: "Russell Daves" Subject: Re: RV10-List: cabin top trimming I strongly concur with both Jesse (about being real cautious installing the cabin top without the tailcone attached) and John re: doing the wheel pants, gear leg and intersection fairings. DON'T wait until you have the wings installed to do the pants, gear legs and intersection fairings. You won't like having to work under the wings. In addition, it is tons easier to level the fuselage (front and back and side to side with it seating on a work bench with the gear legs and wheels off the floor than trying to get it all level with jacks after the engine is hung and the wings are on. You want to set the "level" of the wheel pants in the flying mode, i.e. with all the weight off both the nose gear and the main gear. If you wait to the section in the plans where Van's calls out the install of the wheel pants you will need to jack up both wings, and put an engine hoist on the engine to life up the nose wheel off the floor in order to attempt to level the airplane for flight mode. Russ Daves N710RV - #40044 175+ hours and climbing What an airplane!!! Time: 11:58:48 AM PST US From: "John Hilger" Subject: Re: cabin top trimming Chris You might consider doing the wheel pants, gear leg, and intersection fairings. That might keep you busy for a while. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Hukill To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: RV10-List: cabin top trimming I am to the point of attaching the tailcone, however I won't have room for the combined length of the assembly in my hanger for a few months. So I am considering doing the trimming and fitting of the cabin top without the tailcone attached. Besides not being able to fit and drill the aft flange of the top, is there any reason I couldn't fit the rest of the top? Has anyone that has gone before me have any input on this? Thanks Chris Hukill potential plan deviant ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:21 AM PST US From: Rob Kermanj Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem Is your plane still in the Fort Pierce area? If it is still there I will be glad to help you with tools, my time and a second opinion. Rob Kermanj. On Oct 23, 2007, at 11:34 PM, darnpilot@aol.com wrote: > Hello: > > > I cannot get the Glasair forum to work, so please indulge me if you > will. > > > I've recently purchased a Glasair III. I have been having > continued problems with a very rough running engine. > > It will run fine for 15 minutes then start running rough and losing > power. > > It has even quit running completely. > > The fuel system has been cleaned (injectors, fuel distributor, > gascolator and filter, and screen filters). It still has the same > problem. > > It will run fine for awhile, then very rough or not at all (on the > ground and in the air). > > There is no obvious problem that we can find as everything > previously mentioned has been double checked again. > > Problem occurs with or without the boost pump on. The last time > the engine would run at 17" MP but no more. > > > The latest "guess" is the fuel servo. The only thing that has not > been checked (other than the fuel servo) is the fuel selector valve. > > So far alot of effort (and $$$) have been spent with no solution. > > I hate to spend big $$$ on a now or rebuilt fuel servo and again > find the same problem afterward. Ideas? HELP! > > > My airplane is stuck at a small airfield in the middle of > nowhere...please help. > > > BTW, I took the airplane to High Speed Composites in Ft. Pierce, FL > to have this fixed as well as some gear work done. I will never > take my plane back there. > > > Jeff > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:49 AM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Family project They're quite a few tasks the kids can help, depending on their age. My kids have helped buck rivets, dimple, and debur. You always can use a third hand and there is always a mess to be cleaned up. My son (now 18) has done many of the building tasks on his own, like cutting parts on the band saw or match drilling. He has also used the squeezer to set rivets. When I was riveting the horizontal stab, my daughter help with the clecos (after this I bought a pneumatic cleco gun) and putting rivets into the holes. This made things go a little faster since my son and I didn't have to put tools down. I have a DRDT-2 and my wife even enjoys dimpling. She did most of the Vert. Stab. You'll be able find many jobs they can do. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tganster Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 10:36 PM Subject: RV10-List: Family project Hello all, I have been lurking for 2 1/2 years and have finally jumped the fence. The 10 empennage will be here Thurs. I live in a rural area of WI about an hour west of Green Bay with my wife and large family (9 kids). This brings up my first question. What have others done to include their families in the building process. My children are all very exited to help out in some way. I had some discussion with Dan Lloyd at airventure and have read Tim's web sight over concerning this matter, but would appreciate other comments. Tom Ganster CLI 40778 Just getting started Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141424#141424 __________ NOD32 2612 (20071024) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem From: darnpilot@aol.com 1) Ron, please give me your contact info.? 2) The engine is an IO-540 with Bendix servo.? (Dave, I'll call you.) Thank you. Jeff 904-234-8718 -----Original Message----- From: Rob Kermanj Sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 6:54 am Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem Is your plane still in the Fort Pierce area? ?If it is still there I will be glad to help you with tools, my time and a second opinion. Rob Kermanj. ?? On Oct 23, 2007, at 11:34 PM, darnpilot@aol.com wrote: Hello: I cannot get the Glasair forum to work, so please indulge me if you will. ? ? I've recently purchased a Glasair III.? I have been having continued problems with a very rough running engine.? It will run fine for 15 minutes then start running rough and losing power.? It has even quit running completely.? The fuel system has been cleaned (injectors, fuel distributor, gascolator and filter, and screen filters).? It still has the same problem.? It will run fine for awhile, then very rough or not at all (on the ground and in the air).? There is no obvious problem that we can find as everything previously mentioned has been double checked again.? Problem occurs with or without the boost pump on.? The last time the engine would run at 17" MP but no more. ? The latest "guess" is the fuel servo.? The only thing that has not been checked (other than the fuel servo) is the fuel selector valve.? So far alot of effort (and $$$) have been spent with no solution.? I hate to spend big $$$ on a now or rebuilt fuel servo and again find the same problem afterward.? Ideas?? HELP!? ? My airplane is stuck at a small airfield in the middle of nowhere...please help. ? BTW, I took the airplane to High Speed Composites in Ft. Pierce, FL to have this fixed as well as some gear work done.? I will never take my plane back there. ? Jeff Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Family project From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Congrats Tom, and we look forward to hearing about your progress. If you want to have your wife talk to Trish feel free to call and they can brainstorm on how each team member can participate. Each of our kids got to sign the inside of every structure they worked on, with name, date and age. Even the younger kids can participate by handing tools, sorting pieces etc. Give us a call, and I would be happy to fly up and give you guys some motivational rides and get everyone excited about the adventure ahead! Dan N289DT RV10E Flying -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tganster Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 10:36 PM Subject: RV10-List: Family project Hello all, I have been lurking for 2 1/2 years and have finally jumped the fence. The 10 empennage will be here Thurs. I live in a rural area of WI about an hour west of Green Bay with my wife and large family (9 kids). This brings up my first question. What have others done to include their families in the building process. My children are all very exited to help out in some way. I had some discussion with Dan Lloyd at airventure and have read Tim's web sight over concerning this matter, but would appreciate other comments. Tom Ganster CLI 40778 Just getting started Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141424#141424 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem From: darnpilot@aol.com The real goofy part about all this is its intermittent. So far we've been lucky that every time its happened near an airport. I'll have to check the Glasair manual to see where all the filters are, but we've checked the servo screen, divider, injectors, gascolator, and replaced fuel filter. Have not checked fuel selector or if there are any screens there or at the tanks. Air is the other part of the equation, and now that its mentioned, I do not thinks its been checked. I guess the air filter and alternate air are the only points to check? Have not check the fuel flow into a bucket (have flowed the injectors - OK). The difficult problem is the intermittent nature. Fuel flow and pressure seems OK on the gauge (on the ground when the OK runups are done), but to be honest, when you're at 800' with a badly missing engine, gauges are secondary to getting on the ground. Boost pump makes no difference when it happens. Are there screens at the selector? Any other screens in the fuel system? Engine has 200 hours, built in 1990 and checked again in 1994. The fuel had crap and water in it when I picked it up, but its been cleaned up. That's the reason we've suspected fuel contamination and spent a lot of time getting that cleaned up, but air is something we must check too. I'm not a mechanic, but I wonder why they didn't check that too (or did they)? Remember before taking to the air (initially and after each "fix") we've done complete high power runups and all was fine. The engine ran good in the air on three occasions for about 15 minutes (taxi, run-up, takeoff, climb, cruise, and on one occasion - descent and touch and go) before it started the roughness/misfiring/loss of power. Mag checks are good. One more item: The time it happened orbiting the field, we got to 2500' before it started again. I reduced power to 17.5" and it ran fine, but it would take no more throttle. Orbiting at 17.5" I checked boost pump/magnetos - worked fine. I did not check FF/pressure as the EI 800 gauges on this plane seem unreliable (plus I probably forgot in the commotion). Engine compressions are between 62-72. Attitude seems to make no difference (mine or the airplanes). Help?!? Jeff 904-234-8718 -----Original Message----- From: darnpilot@aol.com Sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 8:29 am Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem ? ? 1) Ron, please give me your contact info.? ? 2) The engine is an IO-540 with Bendix servo.? (Dave, I'll call you.) ? Thank you. ? Jeff 904-234-8718 -----Original Message----- From: Rob Kermanj Sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 6:54 am Subject: Re: RV10-List: Glasair III Engine/Fuel Problem Is your plane still in the Fort Pierce area? ?If it is still there I will be glad to help you with tools, my time and a second opinion. Rob Kermanj. ?? On Oct 23, 2007, at 11:34 PM, darnpilot@aol.com wrote: Hello: I cannot get the Glasair forum to work, so please indulge me if you will. ? ? I've recently purchased a Glasair III.? I have been having continued problems with a very rough running engine.? It will run fine for 15 minutes then start running rough and losing power.? It has even quit running completely.? The fuel system has been cleaned (injectors, fuel distributor, gascolator and filter, and screen filters).? It still has the same problem.? It will run fine for awhile, then very rough or not at all (on the ground and in the air).? There is no obvious problem that we can find as everything previously mentioned has been double checked again.? Problem occurs with or without the boost pump on.? The last time the engine would run at 17" MP but no more. ? The latest "guess" is the fuel servo.? The only thing that has not been checked (other than the fuel servo) is the fuel selector valve.? So far alot of effort (and $$$) have been spent with no solution.? I hate to spend big $$$ on a now or rebuilt fuel servo and again find the same problem afterward.? Ideas?? HELP!? ? My airplane is stuck at a small airfield in the middle of nowhere...please help. ? BTW, I took the airplane to High Speed Composites in Ft. Pierce, FL to have this fixed as well as some gear work done.? I will never take my plane back there. ? Jeff Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:28 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 You're right on this. Yeah, you can save a little on engines or props by going used or something like that, but it's still going to add up to a lot. Just the large item orders are probably going to total over $100k, but the small, hard to account for things add up too. In the list you posted, you caught the avionics, tools, and things like that, but what's really misleading is things like: Interior @ $2K is just seats....not interior, but people really forget about all the misc. stuff...... Epoxy, fiberglass, glues ELT Seat Belts Batteries Structural and pinhole fillers window glue headliner proseal pitot and static hardware if you want more than basic Additional hardware (yes, despite what they tell you, you can't possibly finish it without at least SOME hardware) Baggage Door Lock Seat coverings, and REAR seats complete Interior materials if any, or at least paint fuel pump and flowmeter relays and contactors Antennas Weather Stripping Eyeball vents....nope, not included Tie-down eyelits Flap pos. system Any trim options other than Elevator Stick grips Sound Proofing / heat protection Fuel selector if you want more than the plain-jane Fire Extinguisher Heck, just the Epoxy/fiberglass/glues involved in the -10 add up to HUNDREDS in the end. There are tons of things that aren't included, and it adds up in small bits to quite a chunk of change. I'd agree with Mike...don't even start a -10 if your budget isn't at least $130K, because it's just gonna make you upset as you find you're blowing past that amount to get the plane you want in the end. I'd have to say, if someone looked at the list I just wrote above and decided that they didn't WANT 85% of that stuff, it's not going to be a plane I'd even ride in....most of it is not just fluff, but necessary. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive AirMike wrote: > > I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. > Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue > however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is > no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for > $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: 1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run $48,325 2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min $ 2,500 3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540 min $40,000 4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical $ 2,000 5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender $1,000 6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above) $6,260 7. Paint it yourself materials only $2,000 8. Interior (do you want it to look nice) minimum $2,000 9. Firewall forward kit from vans (no throtle quad) $6,000 _________ Total $110,000 > > OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex > Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP = min $10,000 > > Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his > plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000 > > This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS - No builders assist (classes)- > no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no > screw ups where you need to replace parts - nothing extra > > In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and > more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders > assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a > $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a > decent panel when you are going 200mph. > > Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the > shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START > THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000 > > -------- OSH '08 or Bust > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:04 AM PST US From: Rick Sked Subject: Re: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 Shipping is a pretty good chink too, I wander what Van paid for shipping? My shipping cost are over $2000, including engine and avionics plus all those spruce/vendor orders. Rick S. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:34:41 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles Subject: Re: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 You're right on this. Yeah, you can save a little on engines or props by going used or something like that, but it's still going to add up to a lot. Just the large item orders are probably going to total over $100k, but the small, hard to account for things add up too. In the list you posted, you caught the avionics, tools, and things like that, but what's really misleading is things like: Interior @ $2K is just seats....not interior, but people really forget about all the misc. stuff...... Epoxy, fiberglass, glues ELT Seat Belts Batteries Structural and pinhole fillers window glue headliner proseal pitot and static hardware if you want more than basic Additional hardware (yes, despite what they tell you, you can't possibly finish it without at least SOME hardware) Baggage Door Lock Seat coverings, and REAR seats complete Interior materials if any, or at least paint fuel pump and flowmeter relays and contactors Antennas Weather Stripping Eyeball vents....nope, not included Tie-down eyelits Flap pos. system Any trim options other than Elevator Stick grips Sound Proofing / heat protection Fuel selector if you want more than the plain-jane Fire Extinguisher Heck, just the Epoxy/fiberglass/glues involved in the -10 add up to HUNDREDS in the end. There are tons of things that aren't included, and it adds up in small bits to quite a chunk of change. I'd agree with Mike...don't even start a -10 if your budget isn't at least $130K, because it's just gonna make you upset as you find you're blowing past that amount to get the plane you want in the end. I'd have to say, if someone looked at the list I just wrote above and decided that they didn't WANT 85% of that stuff, it's not going to be a plane I'd even ride in....most of it is not just fluff, but necessary. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive AirMike wrote: > > I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. > Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue > however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is > no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for > $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: 1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run $48,325 2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min $ 2,500 3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540 min $40,000 4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical $ 2,000 5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender $1,000 6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above) $6,260 7. Paint it yourself materials only $2,000 8. Interior (do you want it to look nice) minimum $2,000 9. Firewall forward kit from vans (no throtle quad) $6,000 _________ Total $110,000 > > OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex > Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP = min $10,000 > > Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his > plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000 > > This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS - No builders assist (classes)- > no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no > screw ups where you need to replace parts - nothing extra > > In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and > more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders > assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a > $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a > decent panel when you are going 200mph. > > Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the > shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START > THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000 > > -------- OSH '08 or Bust > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:37 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 I agree. The main place you could save much money here is going with a used engine. N110GS bought a used engine and built it up himself for under $20,000, but those are hard to find. All of the stuff that Tim listed are necessary and add up a lot faster than you think they would. You would be best off budgeting $150K or so and then building as if your budget is $110,000 and you might make it in around $130K. Do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:35 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 You're right on this. Yeah, you can save a little on engines or props by going used or something like that, but it's still going to add up to a lot. Just the large item orders are probably going to total over $100k, but the small, hard to account for things add up too. In the list you posted, you caught the avionics, tools, and things like that, but what's really misleading is things like: Interior @ $2K is just seats....not interior, but people really forget about all the misc. stuff...... Epoxy, fiberglass, glues ELT Seat Belts Batteries Structural and pinhole fillers window glue headliner proseal pitot and static hardware if you want more than basic Additional hardware (yes, despite what they tell you, you can't possibly finish it without at least SOME hardware) Baggage Door Lock Seat coverings, and REAR seats complete Interior materials if any, or at least paint fuel pump and flowmeter relays and contactors Antennas Weather Stripping Eyeball vents....nope, not included Tie-down eyelits Flap pos. system Any trim options other than Elevator Stick grips Sound Proofing / heat protection Fuel selector if you want more than the plain-jane Fire Extinguisher Heck, just the Epoxy/fiberglass/glues involved in the -10 add up to HUNDREDS in the end. There are tons of things that aren't included, and it adds up in small bits to quite a chunk of change. I'd agree with Mike...don't even start a -10 if your budget isn't at least $130K, because it's just gonna make you upset as you find you're blowing past that amount to get the plane you want in the end. I'd have to say, if someone looked at the list I just wrote above and decided that they didn't WANT 85% of that stuff, it's not going to be a plane I'd even ride in....most of it is not just fluff, but necessary. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive AirMike wrote: > > I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. > Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue > however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is > no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for > $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: 1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run $48,325 2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min $ 2,500 3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540 min $40,000 4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical $ 2,000 5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender $1,000 6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above) $6,260 7. Paint it yourself materials only $2,000 8. Interior (do you want it to look nice) minimum $2,000 9. Firewall forward kit from vans (no throtle quad) $6,000 _________ Total $110,000 > > OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex > Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP = min $10,000 > > Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his > plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000 > > This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS - No builders assist (classes)- > no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no > screw ups where you need to replace parts - nothing extra > > In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and > more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders > assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a > $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a > decent panel when you are going 200mph. > > Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the > shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START > THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000 > > -------- OSH '08 or Bust > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Along these lines don't forget the thousands in shipping for everything, especially the overnight bills at the end. Seems like I spent $500 in shipping for the last minute got to haves to be ready for final assembly/ inspection. Trish had to drive to summit, not once, but twice in the two days before my inspection to get 90 degree fuel fittings because we could not bend and flare them tight enough to fit, and to get scales because the guy at the airport was sick and nobody else had them. That's six hours, gas money etc just for four fittings and a set of scales. Granted with proper planning these could have been avoided, but there is always several things that pop up and cost extra to solve and at the end there will be more than you think. BUT with everything being said about costs, planning and such, lets keep in the perspective that there is not a better feeling than the first time you take off in a plane you built in your garage, it makes everything else a mute point. No matter what you have to do, collect aluminum cans if you have to! Build one and fly it, it is definitely worth the heartache and frustration along the way! Dan N289DT RV10E flying -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:35 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 You're right on this. Yeah, you can save a little on engines or props by going used or something like that, but it's still going to add up to a lot. Just the large item orders are probably going to total over $100k, but the small, hard to account for things add up too. In the list you posted, you caught the avionics, tools, and things like that, but what's really misleading is things like: Interior @ $2K is just seats....not interior, but people really forget about all the misc. stuff...... Epoxy, fiberglass, glues ELT Seat Belts Batteries Structural and pinhole fillers window glue headliner proseal pitot and static hardware if you want more than basic Additional hardware (yes, despite what they tell you, you can't possibly finish it without at least SOME hardware) Baggage Door Lock Seat coverings, and REAR seats complete Interior materials if any, or at least paint fuel pump and flowmeter relays and contactors Antennas Weather Stripping Eyeball vents....nope, not included Tie-down eyelits Flap pos. system Any trim options other than Elevator Stick grips Sound Proofing / heat protection Fuel selector if you want more than the plain-jane Fire Extinguisher Heck, just the Epoxy/fiberglass/glues involved in the -10 add up to HUNDREDS in the end. There are tons of things that aren't included, and it adds up in small bits to quite a chunk of change. I'd agree with Mike...don't even start a -10 if your budget isn't at least $130K, because it's just gonna make you upset as you find you're blowing past that amount to get the plane you want in the end. I'd have to say, if someone looked at the list I just wrote above and decided that they didn't WANT 85% of that stuff, it's not going to be a plane I'd even ride in....most of it is not just fluff, but necessary. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive AirMike wrote: > > I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. > Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue > however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is > no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for > $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: 1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run $48,325 2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min $ 2,500 3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540 min $40,000 4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical $ 2,000 5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender $1,000 6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above) $6,260 7. Paint it yourself materials only $2,000 8. Interior (do you want it to look nice) minimum $2,000 9. Firewall forward kit from vans (no throtle quad) $6,000 _________ Total $110,000 > > OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex > Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP = min $10,000 > > Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his > plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000 > > This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS - No builders assist (classes)- > no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no > screw ups where you need to replace parts - nothing extra > > In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and > more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders > assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a > $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a > decent panel when you are going 200mph. > > Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the > shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START > THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000 > > -------- OSH '08 or Bust > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:07 AM PST US From: Vernon Smith Subject: RE: RV10-List: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes John, Not "the bad guy", just keeping the rest of us honest. And maybe saving a l ife or two in the process. Hmm sounds like hero work, but heroes are someti mes miss understood. Vern Smith (#324 cabin top) do not archive Subject: RE: FW: RV10-List: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet hol esDate: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:55:56 -0700From: johnwcox@pacificnw.comTo: rv10 -list@matronics.com Les, was that Ken Krueger or Ken Scott that quoted for the whole engineerin g department/ group at VANS? If you heard that in writing, could you (Plea se) post it so that others can base their build technique on it as well. Th eir professional knowledge base and academic training are vastly differing between the two Ken=92s. A 2X rivet diameter to edge distance is a fairly solid and hard rule to avo id both stress cracks and tears on military, civil air carrier and certifie d general aviation build aeroplanes. I have both the US Army DOD Structura l Manual and the Naval Aviator=92s Manuals, The Canadian Bombardier Structu ral Aircraft Manual along with the FAA AC 43.13. Would anyone else like ano ther Aviation Structural Engineer=92s written opinion before proceeding wit h reduced edge distances? If it is a modern change, I am all for modifying decades old technique. Gosh, And why is it that I always seem like the bad guy when following an e stablished construction technique? Must be the weather out here. Don=92t take any of this personally I have to maintain French Canadian designed and built aircraft every night. Epic Aircraft found it advantageous to move f rom Oregon to Canada for a most interesting reason. I am not even going there on the subject of closing gaps with shim material before anchoring skins with solid rivet fasteners. John Cox - KUAO _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Oc tWLtagline ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:41 AM PST US From: Rick Sked Subject: Re: RV10-List: Family project Hey Dan, Did waiting for Jan to come over and sign the insides hold you up any? :) Rick S. 40185 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel R. Lloyd" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:03:54 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles Subject: RE: RV10-List: Family project Congrats Tom, and we look forward to hearing about your progress. If you want to have your wife talk to Trish feel free to call and they can brainstorm on how each team member can participate. Each of our kids got to sign the inside of every structure they worked on, with name, date and age. Even the younger kids can participate by handing tools, sorting pieces etc. Give us a call, and I would be happy to fly up and give you guys some motivational rides and get everyone excited about the adventure ahead! Dan N289DT RV10E Flying -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tganster Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 10:36 PM Subject: RV10-List: Family project Hello all, I have been lurking for 2 1/2 years and have finally jumped the fence. The 10 empennage will be here Thurs. I live in a rural area of WI about an hour west of Green Bay with my wife and large family (9 kids). This brings up my first question. What have others done to include their families in the building process. My children are all very exited to help out in some way. I had some discussion with Dan Lloyd at airventure and have read Tim's web sight over concerning this matter, but would appreciate other comments. Tom Ganster CLI 40778 Just getting started Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141424#141424 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:53 AM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 Amen brother. Cave dweller indeed. Did you mention pshychaitric bills once you realize all the other things you are missing. Putting the sailplane away for the winter and getting back into building has been a challenge. CAve dweller! Maybe building in a glass dome would be better. I hate the cave! I built a house on a bare piece of property where I had to clear brush for six months first. I went to four years of undergrad and then on to four years of dental school. Countless hours of studying. I was younger then. Building a plane like this at midlife is tough at best. Don't want to wish my life away, but this is a better project for the retired. The most difficult part of this is the isolation, unless you have a building partner. It does weird things to your mind. One might just want out, but if you are not a quiter, then you start dreaming of other outlets that might make you feel good...as in alive. Careful it could get costly, and you could find your airplane bashed in by a baseball bat. Take those baseball bats out of the house if that is where the plane is. Do as John suggests and get a Wilson volleyball and put it in the shop so you can talk to it like Tom Hanks did in that stranded movie. Okay, back to figuring out where I got all that strobe wire??? I need some more. Back through the receipts. Oh, where did I put that socket wrentch, another five minutes wasted? EEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHH! John #409 >From: "John Dunne" >To: >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:35:53 +1000 > > >....and hospital bills for back repairs and expensive glasses so you can >still see the real world exists outside your shed, a new CD library because >the neighbours are threatening to sue if you play anymore 70's and 80's >music, a new dog; one that won't bark at you when you go near your own >house, a flame suit for making stupid comments on the matronics list, a >divorce lawyer, and don't forget the cost of keeping your friends >entertained with that new, bright red, itchy, clowns nose that no-one >believes is fibreglass allergy. And public liability insurance for your >neighbours, who all march their kids to the other side of the street when >they see you coming, whispering, "There's that meatloaf idiot who's going >to >try to fly his bat plane out of his shed and hopefully miss our house.... >Don't forget the expense of lots of flowers and lots of apology >cards..."Sorry I missed our special day" (insert here...wedding, >anniversary, funeral, Caribbean cruise) > >Buy an LSA off the shelf and miss all the fun? Not this cave dweller! >What do ya say Wilson? Ready for a beer? >Cost? >What cost >Skys the limit. >My two cents worth. hmmm at $0.90 that's $0.018 alrighty then, where's that >Vans catalogue? > >Do not archive. >John 40319 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron >Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 3:53 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 > > > >Amen > >- and throw in a crappy US dollar exchange rate of say $0.75 on average >over the kit purchase price, and then overseas freight + GST at 10% on >top of the lot and the pain is far greater! If you want all new parts >(engine etc) don't expect to get by for less than $200k in Oz - unless >the Aussie dollar continues its drive above US$0.90 ;-> > >Ron > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AirMike >Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 2:56 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 > > >I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. >Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue >however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is no >way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for >$110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: >1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run $48,325 >2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min $ 2,500 >3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540 min $40,000 >4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical $ 2,000 >5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender $1,000 >6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above) $6,260 >7. Paint it yourself materials only $2,000 >8. Interior (do you want it to look nice) minimum $2,000 >9. Firewall forward kit from vans (no throtle quad) $6,000 > >_________ >Total >$110,000 > >OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex Dynon >- Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP = min $10,000 > >Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his >plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000 > >This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS - No builders assist (classes)- no >special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no screw ups >where you need to replace parts - nothing extra > >In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and >more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders >assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a >$150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a decent >panel when you are going 200mph. > >Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the >shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START THIS >PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000 > >-------- >OSH '08 or Bust > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449 > > >"Warning: >The information contained in this email and any attached files is >confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended >recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any >attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email >in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been >taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, >however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the >sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus >checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to >your computer." > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:34 AM PST US From: Vernon Smith Subject: RE: RV10-List: Seat rivets LP4-3 vs CS4-4 I miss read the plans and ended up dimpling the rear seats pans for the CS4 -4. Didn't realize my folly until I tried to dimple the outboard ribs again st the side skins and couldn't get the rivet squeezers into place to dimple it. The other difficulty was dimpling the rivet holes in the ribs around t he seat belt anchor points. Using the recommend LP4-3 would have been easie r. Vern (#324 cabin top) do not archive > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:01:38 -0700> From: jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RV10-List: Seat rivets LP4-3 vs CS4- m>> > On page 35-3, did anyone else find it odd that the rear seats are > r iveted down with LP4-3, instead of CS4-4, like it is on all the other > fla t floor surfaces? I would much prefer floor a flat surface with CS4-4's.> > I am tempted to dimple everything and put in CS4-4's. Did anyone manage > ========> > > _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Family project From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Naw, he was already on site for first flight, so he signed it then. Then it was down at his shop for 2 months getting the upgrades and turbo, so we did not have to wait for that particular sign off, now Stein on the other hand, still has not signed the back of the panel! And without a finger who knows when that will get done! Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:44 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Family project Hey Dan, Did waiting for Jan to come over and sign the insides hold you up any? :) Rick S. 40185 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel R. Lloyd" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:03:54 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles Subject: RE: RV10-List: Family project Congrats Tom, and we look forward to hearing about your progress. If you want to have your wife talk to Trish feel free to call and they can brainstorm on how each team member can participate. Each of our kids got to sign the inside of every structure they worked on, with name, date and age. Even the younger kids can participate by handing tools, sorting pieces etc. Give us a call, and I would be happy to fly up and give you guys some motivational rides and get everyone excited about the adventure ahead! Dan N289DT RV10E Flying -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tganster Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 10:36 PM Subject: RV10-List: Family project Hello all, I have been lurking for 2 1/2 years and have finally jumped the fence. The 10 empennage will be here Thurs. I live in a rural area of WI about an hour west of Green Bay with my wife and large family (9 kids). This brings up my first question. What have others done to include their families in the building process. My children are all very exited to help out in some way. I had some discussion with Dan Lloyd at airventure and have read Tim's web sight over concerning this matter, but would appreciate other comments. Tom Ganster CLI 40778 Just getting started Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141424#141424 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:36 AM PST US From: John Hurst Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex conn ectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and Flo-scan units for easy installation & removal (if necessary down the road). Any recommen dations before I finalize this area? Or would I be better off using butt co nnectors with these wires? I want to make the connections as easy as possi ble when the time comes to wiring.=0A =0Ajohn=0A40102 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:24 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? I put molex connectors just as you have described. Single pull disconnects all wires at once instead of two or three pulls depending on the number of connectors. -----Original Message----- >From: John Hurst >Sent: Oct 24, 2007 12:22 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? > >I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex connectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and Flo-scan units for easy installation & removal (if necessary down the road). Any recommendations before I finalize this area? Or would I be better off using butt connectors with these wires? I want to make the connections as easy as possible when the time comes to wiring. > >john >40102 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:26 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? This is all a matter of preference. You can use spade or knife splice connectors, butt splices, or a connector. A connector would be nice and easy to work with. I really like the CPC Connectors. D-Sub is too small for handling the current needed for the boost pump. I have never likes normal Molex connectors, but that's just me. Do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 _____ From: John Hurst [mailto:johnh38@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex connectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and Flo-scan units for easy installation & removal (if necessary down the road). Any recommendations before I finalize this area? Or would I be better off using butt connectors with these wires? I want to make the connections as easy as possible when the time comes to wiring. john 40102 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:52 AM PST US From: Vernon Smith Subject: RE: RV10-List: Family project Tom, Welcome to a great family activity! When my son tells people what we are do ing many say "I wish my Dad would do something like that with me." He was 1 0 when we started our's and it has been part of his education (shop class.) I keep his "classes" shorter than my work sessions so he doesn't tire of t he project. Some things he is great at and loves doing for example, deburri ng holes and drivng rivets. Other things that I though would be good jobs f or him he hates, i.e. deburring edges and bucking rivets. So we have divide d the tasks and conquored. One idea would be get several of Van's tool box kits and have a family bui ld. Van's may give you a group discount;) Enjoy, Vern (#324 cabin top) do not archive > Subject: RV10-List: Family project> From: tganster@mwwb.net> Date: Tue, 2 3 Oct 2007 19:36:20 -0700> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> > --> RV10-List mes sage posted by: "tganster" > > Hello all,> I have been l urking for 2 1/2 years and have finally jumped the fence. The 10 empennage will be here Thurs. I live in a rural area of WI about an hour west of Gree n Bay with my wife and large family (9 kids). This brings up my first quest ion. What have others done to include their families in the building proces s. My children are all very exited to help out in some way. I had some disc ussion with Dan Lloyd at airventure and have read Tim's web sight over conc erning this matter, but would appreciate other comments.> > Tom Ganster CLI > 40778 Just getting started> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http: ========> > > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!- Play Star Shuffle:- the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc t ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:27 AM PST US From: Jae Chang Subject: Re: RV10-List: Seat rivets LP4-3 vs CS4-4 ok. thanks for the replies. i think i will take some liberties in this area, and for once, do a small mod intentionally versus the other kind. ;) Jae 40533 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:19 AM PST US From: Jae Chang Subject: Re: FW: RV10-List: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes Les... strange that this gap should exist. i don't recall having any issues here and with the rivets in, everything is tight. a picture would help. Jae 40533 Les Kearney wrote: > > Hi Again > > I heard back from Ken at Vans. According to Ken, the engineering > group is not concerned about the 3/32 edge clearance that I achieved. > > I also have a gap between the F1001B and the F1040 fuse channel at the > forward end that I dont think will close when riveted. They said I > could shim the gap if desired. > > Cheers > > Les > > #40643 Singing the Section 29 Blues. > > * > * ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: cabin top trimming From: "Chris Johnston" I'm doing the wheel fairings right now, and I can tell you it would be a real bummer to do it with the engine and wings on. I've got the airplane up in the air pretty easily right now with no engine on, and no wings. I actually went down to my local Harbor Freight Tools and bought the scissor lift table (on sale for $199! Add that to the cost of building..) and it makes it much easier to put the plane up and back down. I think it's this one here: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93116 I actually modified it by cutting down the push handle and mounting it so it lays flat instead of upright. Worked like a charm. Now I can position it under the aircraft with the appropriate amount of padding, and raise and lower the plane to my heart's delight! I've already hit my head on the wing spar a few times, but I'm happier to dent my head than the wing skin. :-) cj -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:16 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: cabin top trimming I strongly concur with both Jesse (about being real cautious installing the cabin top without the tailcone attached) and John re: doing the wheel pants, gear leg and intersection fairings. DON'T wait until you have the wings installed to do the pants, gear legs and intersection fairings. You won't like having to work under the wings. In addition, it is tons easier to level the fuselage (front and back and side to side with it seating on a work bench with the gear legs and wheels off the floor than trying to get it all level with jacks after the engine is hung and the wings are on. You want to set the "level" of the wheel pants in the flying mode, i.e. with all the weight off both the nose gear and the main gear. If you wait to the section in the plans where Van's calls out the install of the wheel pants you will need to jack up both wings, and put an engine hoist on the engine to life up the nose wheel off the floor in order to attempt to level the airplane for flight mode. Russ Daves N710RV - #40044 175+ hours and climbing What an airplane!!! Time: 11:58:48 AM PST US From: "John Hilger" Subject: Re: cabin top trimming Chris You might consider doing the wheel pants, gear leg, and intersection fairings. That might keep you busy for a while. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Hukill To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: RV10-List: cabin top trimming I am to the point of attaching the tailcone, however I won't have room for the combined length of the assembly in my hanger for a few months. So I am considering doing the trimming and fitting of the cabin top without the tailcone attached. Besides not being able to fit and drill the aft flange of the top, is there any reason I couldn't fit the rest of the top? Has anyone that has gone before me have any input on this? Thanks Chris Hukill potential plan deviant ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:01 AM PST US From: Bill DeRouchey Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 The formula that I have been using is $110K plus panel plus interior. This includes paint, long build wings, quick build fuselage, and $40K for the engine. Even one year later, the smile is priceless. Bill DeRouchey N939SB, flying Jesse Saint wrote: I agree. The main place you could save much money here is going with a used engine. N110GS bought a used engine and built it up himself for under $20,000, but those are hard to find. All of the stuff that Tim listed are necessary and add up a lot faster than you think they would. You would be best off budgeting $150K or so and then building as if your budget is $110,000 and you might make it in around $130K. Do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:35 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 You're right on this. Yeah, you can save a little on engines or props by going used or something like that, but it's still going to add up to a lot. Just the large item orders are probably going to total over $100k, but the small, hard to account for things add up too. In the list you posted, you caught the avionics, tools, and things like that, but what's really misleading is things like: Interior @ $2K is just seats....not interior, but people really forget about all the misc. stuff...... Epoxy, fiberglass, glues ELT Seat Belts Batteries Structural and pinhole fillers window glue headliner proseal pitot and static hardware if you want more than basic Additional hardware (yes, despite what they tell you, you can't possibly finish it without at least SOME hardware) Baggage Door Lock Seat coverings, and REAR seats complete Interior materials if any, or at least paint fuel pump and flowmeter relays and contactors Antennas Weather Stripping Eyeball vents....nope, not included Tie-down eyelits Flap pos. system Any trim options other than Elevator Stick grips Sound Proofing / heat protection Fuel selector if you want more than the plain-jane Fire Extinguisher Heck, just the Epoxy/fiberglass/glues involved in the -10 add up to HUNDREDS in the end. There are tons of things that aren't included, and it adds up in small bits to quite a chunk of change. I'd agree with Mike...don't even start a -10 if your budget isn't at least $130K, because it's just gonna make you upset as you find you're blowing past that amount to get the plane you want in the end. I'd have to say, if someone looked at the list I just wrote above and decided that they didn't WANT 85% of that stuff, it's not going to be a plane I'd even ride in....most of it is not just fluff, but necessary. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive AirMike wrote: > > I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. > Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue > however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is > no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for > $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: 1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run $48,325 2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min $ 2,500 3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540 min $40,000 4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical $ 2,000 5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender $1,000 6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above) $6,260 7. Paint it yourself materials only $2,000 8. Interior (do you want it to look nice) minimum $2,000 9. Firewall forward kit from vans (no throtle quad) $6,000 _________ Total $110,000 > > OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex > Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP = min $10,000 > > Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his > plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000 > > This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS - No builders assist (classes)- > no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no > screw ups where you need to replace parts - nothing extra > > In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and > more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders > assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a > $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a > decent panel when you are going 200mph. > > Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the > shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START > THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000 > > -------- OSH '08 or Bust > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449 > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:32 AM PST US From: LES KEARNEY Subject: Re: FW: RV10-List: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes Hi Jae Perhaps the rivets will close the gap=2E However=2C I am used to seeing parts sit flush befor rivetting=2E In any event=2C I will try to post a picture later tonight=2E Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Jae Chang =3Cjc-matronics=5Frv10=40jline=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Wednesday=2C October 24=2C 2007 12=3A05 pm Subject=3A Re=3A FW=3A RV10-List=3A WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channe l rivet holes To=3A rv10-list=40matronics=2Ecom =3E --=3E RV10-List message posted by=3A Jae Chang =3Cjc- =3E matronics=5Frv10=40jline=2Ecom=3E =3E Les=2E=2E=2E strange that this gap should exist=2E i don=27t recall having =3E any =3E issues here and with the rivets in=2C everything is tight=2E a =3E picture would =3E help=2E =3E =3E Jae =3E 40533 =3E =3E Les Kearney wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E Hi Again =3E =3E =3E =3E I heard back from Ken at Van=92s=2E According to Ken=2C the =3E engineering =3E =3E group is not concerned about the 3/32 edge clearance that I =3E achieved=2E=3E =3E =3E I also have a gap between the F1001B and the F1040 fuse =3E channel at the =3E =3E forward end that I don=92t think will close when riveted=2E They =3E said I =3E =3E could shim the gap if desired=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Cheers =3E =3E =3E =3E Les =3E =3E =3E =3E =2340643 ' Singing the Section 29 Blues=85=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E * =3E =3E * =3E =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =5F-= - The =3E RV10-List Email Forum - =3E =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =3E =5F-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page=2C =3E =5F-= Archive Search =26 Download=2C 7-Day Browse=2C Chat=2C FAQ=2C =3E =5F-= Photoshare=2C and much much more=3A =3E =5F-= --=3E http=3A//www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/Navigator=3FRV10-List =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =5F- =3E = - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =3E =5F-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! =3E =5F-= --=3E http=3A//forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =3E =3E =3E ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:00 AM PST US From: Patrick Thyssen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Seat rivets LP4-3 vs CS4-4 I also did mine with C/S rivets just because the cargo floor was done with c/s rivets. It is smooth so get the velco out. Here's a question for the group and that is, with abby's light grey interior what kind and color interior paint did you use? Same for instrument panel. Tim said he mixed at paint store? We"ll see everyone at copperstate I hope. Pictures Please. Patrick Thyssen I love my OP Tech oops Aerosonics Jae Chang wrote: ok. thanks for the replies. i think i will take some liberties in this area, and for once, do a small mod intentionally versus the other kind. ;) Jae 40533 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:52 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: New product annoucement From: "=?utf-8?B?Qm9iIE5ld21hbg==?=" Fellow RV builders, I'm pleased to annouce we have added two new models to the Safety-Trim product family. In addition to our standard features of time limited servo control, adjustable speed control, emergency reverse and simplified pilot/co-pilot wiring we now have models with that provide 2 user adjustable preset speeds. This feature allows you to control your trim response based on aircraft performance. This feature is especially useful in aircraft with a large performance envelope such as the RVs. For all the details please visit our website. www.tcwtech.com Thanks, Bob Newman. Rv-10 #40176 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:08 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? My take on wiring items is to wire directly when possible and leave enough slack to install a Molex connector later. The caveat here is that there must be enough room to get the crimper and a hand to hold the wire. If the item has a pigtail, I might make a splice by spreading the strands (picture top of palm tree) and interfacing the two ends together, roll the 'bundle' together and solder. Don't forget the heat shrink. Linn do not archive John Hurst wrote: > > I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex > connectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and > Flo-scan units for easy installation & removal (if necessary down the > road). Any recommendations before I finalize this area? Or would I be > better off using butt connectors with these wires? I want to make the > connections as easy as possible when the time comes to wiring. > > john > 40102 > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:05 PM PST US From: "ddddsp1@juno.com" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 I think if you ask Van and the people who put the estimator numbers toge ther, they will tell you that NUMBER does NOT include a NEW motor or $50 -100K in Avionics. That estimator will get you a Basic VFR aircraft th at performs the same as a $300k RV10. Van's philosophy for building HBA C has not changed...........Great Performance, Great Economy, at a Great Price. It is the people building these planes that make the conscious decisions to spend more for NEW vs used or rebuilt that refute Van's num bers. The neat thing about Van's kits and building an EXP is the abilit y to spend as much as you want IF you want too. I find it hard to tell a guy who has made millions over 35 years that he is misleading his cust omer. But is it a free speech world........and anyone can disagree or e ven call him a liar. I call Van the smartest guy in GA aviation. The r est of us only wish we had done what he has done............of course lo ok at the posts on this site, on VAF, and many others. Thousands of us are telling Van everyday HOW to run his business........thank God he has learned to listen to only the important suggestions and comments. Plea se don't ruin peoples dream because you don't have the same philosopy as Van on the RV10. Off the soapbox and into the plane going fishing in SD. DEAN 805HL _____________________________________________________________ It's never been easier to change your name. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iif5faL9Q7cunq7JvTicQAO 6EP3ujYvyofecXzmYhfojhPd6U/ ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:57 PM PST US From: Rick Sked Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? Personally, install the connector, while it's out and easy to do. Leave a s ervice loop to allow for easier removal and to apply the correct amount of slack to the bundle. The advantage of a connector is it allows easy removal ...think away from home base. A connector also allows you to easily trouble shoot for shorts and continuity. For the few extra minutes and cents...it makes sense. Remember this quote from a pioneer RV building: "The more permanant yuo mqke a replacaible unit the more apt it is to flail ." James McClow Rick S. 40185 Wiring DONE!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: " linn Walters" < pitts_pilot @ bellsouth .net> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:55:39 PM ( GMT-0800 ) America/ Los_Ange les Subject: Re: RV10-List : Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? My take on wiring items is to wire directly when possible and leave enough slack to install a Molex connector later.=C2- The caveat here is that the re must be enough room to get the crimper and a hand to hold the wire.=C2 - If the item has a pigtail, I might make a splice by spreading the stran ds (picture top of palm tree) and interfacing the two ends together, roll t he 'bundle' together and solder.=C2- Don't forget the heat shrink. Linn do not archive John Hurst wrote: I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex conn ectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and Flo-scan units for easy=C2-installation & removal (if necessary down the road).=C2- An y recommendations before I finalize this area? Or=C2-would I be better of f=C2-using butt connectors with these wires?=C2- I want to make the con nections as easy as possible when the time comes to wiring. john 40102 ======== ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:16 PM PST US From: Rick Sked Subject: Re: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 Dean, After admiring your RV-10 I can see where you followed Van's great economy philosohpy to a Tee!!=C2- :) Rick S. ----- Original Message ----- From: ddddsp1@juno.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:20:36 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles Subject: RE: RV10-List: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 I think if you ask Van and the people who put the estimator numbers togethe r, they will tell you that NUMBER does NOT include a NEW motor or $50-100K in Avionics.=C2-=C2- That estimator will get you a Basic VFR aircraft t hat performs the same as a $300k RV10.=C2- Van's philosophy for building HBAC has not changed...........Great Performance, Great Economy, at a Great Price.=C2- It is the people building these planes that make the consciou s decisions to spend more for NEW vs used or rebuilt that refute Van's numb ers.=C2- The neat thing about Van's kits and building an EXP is the abili ty to spend as much as you want IF you want too.=C2- I find it hard to te ll a guy who has made millions over 35 years that he is misleading his cust omer.=C2- But is it a free speech world........and anyone can disagree or even call him a liar.=C2- I call Van the smartest guy in GA aviation.=C2 - The rest of us only wish we had done what he has done............of cou rse look at the posts on this site, on VAF, and many others.=C2- Thousand s of us are telling Van everyday HOW to run his business........thank God h e has learned to listen to only the important suggestions and comments.=C2 - Please don't ruin peoples dream because you don't have the same philoso py as Van on the RV10. Off the soapbox and into the plane going fishing in SD. DEAN 805HL _____________________________________________________________ It's never been easier to change your name. Click now! ======= ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:00 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: RV10-List: Static ports I installed the Safeair static ports (see Pics ) I've read/heard that the ports themselves need to project slightly beyond the skin of the aircraft in order to function properly. These project slightly, BUT VERY slightly. 1. Am I going to have a problem w/ accuracy in instruments? 2. Anybody flying with these have any experience? 3. If they are problematic? Is there something that can be done from the outside of the a/c to remedy/fix or am I going to have to recruit and elf to crawl into the tailcone for me? It seems I recall John Cox posting some pics of a Cirus installation where they actually had afixed a wedge shaped piece of metal just forward of the port itself. Could a machined metal disc be affixed to the outside of the skin over the existing port? 4. If replacement is in order what has experience led people THANKS Deems Davis # 406 'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:23 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: RV10-List: Static ports Picture link looks like the picture didn't come through. here's a link http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%20The%20Home%20Stretch/slides/DSC05502.html Deems ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:57 PM PST US From: Bill DeRouchey Subject: Re: RV10-List: Static ports The issue with the protruding height is not only the port configuration but the thickness of the paint. I smoothed the rivets holding the port in place, and did not locate a rivet in front of the port in-line with the airflow. Next, I stuck a round toothpick in the static port during painting. After painting the hole was carefully smoothed at the opening. End result was no protrusion nor static source problems. Bill DeRouchey N939SB, flying Deems Davis wrote: I installed the Safeair static ports (see Pics ) I've read/heard that the ports themselves need to project slightly beyond the skin of the aircraft in order to function properly. These project slightly, BUT VERY slightly. 1. Am I going to have a problem w/ accuracy in instruments? 2. Anybody flying with these have any experience? 3. If they are problematic? Is there something that can be done from the outside of the a/c to remedy/fix or am I going to have to recruit and elf to crawl into the tailcone for me? It seems I recall John Cox posting some pics of a Cirus installation where they actually had afixed a wedge shaped piece of metal just forward of the port itself. Could a machined metal disc be affixed to the outside of the skin over the existing port? 4. If replacement is in order what has experience led people THANKS Deems Davis # 406 'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:11 PM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? I agree overall. The reason some people prefer to make a single splice permanently is that there is only one connection there instead of three (wire to pin, pin to socket, socket to wire) that can go bad. I have had a wire break on a crimp pin before, where it would not have broken on a splice, at the original installation, of course. The nice thing is that it is easier to troubleshoot, as you said, but it does allow more possibility of error into the system. Again, I put connectors as many places as I can imagine having to disconnect sometime in the future. With N415EC, after being hit by the crashing Columbia, the recovery crew said it was the easiest disassembly of an airplane that they have done. With disconnects at all removeable parts, it all came apart quickly and cleanly, which I was also thankful for when it can time to reassemble. N256H is in the paint shop right now, disassembled, and I wish I had put disconnects on it as well. Reconnecting everything is going to be an absolute paint in the neck compared to a simple CPC "plug and twist" reassembly. There are pros and cons to both. Do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 _____ From: Rick Sked [mailto:ricksked@embarqmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:55 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? Personally, install the connector, while it's out and easy to do. Leave a service loop to allow for easier removal and to apply the correct amount of slack to the bundle. The advantage of a connector is it allows easy removal...think away from home base. A connector also allows you to easily trouble shoot for shorts and continuity. For the few extra minutes and cents...it makes sense. Remember this quote from a pioneer RV building: "The more permanant yuo mqke a replacaible unit the more apt it is to flail." James McClow Rick S. 40185 Wiring DONE!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "linn Walters" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:55:39 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? My take on wiring items is to wire directly when possible and leave enough slack to install a Molex connector later. The caveat here is that there must be enough room to get the crimper and a hand to hold the wire. If the item has a pigtail, I might make a splice by spreading the strands (picture top of palm tree) and interfacing the two ends together, roll the 'bundle' together and solder. Don't forget the heat shrink. Linn do not archive John Hurst wrote: I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex connectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and Flo-scan units for easy installation & removal (if necessary down the road). Any recommendations before I finalize this area? Or would I be better off using butt connectors with these wires? I want to make the connections as easy as possible when the time comes to wiring. john 40102 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:06 PM PST US From: "Patrick ONeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Static ports That looks nearly identical to the Rivethead Aero static ports I installed: http://www.noimnotcrazy.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=1870 I posted a similar question to the list a month or so ago, and several people replied off list that the installation should work fine. You'll be flying long before me so I can't help with the accuracy issue, but I'll be eager to hear if you have any problems. Best Regards, Patrick #40715 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:09 PM Subject: RV10-List: Static ports I installed the Safeair static ports (see Pics ) I've read/heard that the ports themselves need to project slightly beyond the skin of the aircraft in order to function properly. These project slightly, BUT VERY slightly. 1. Am I going to have a problem w/ accuracy in instruments? 2. Anybody flying with these have any experience? 3. If they are problematic? Is there something that can be done from the outside of the a/c to remedy/fix or am I going to have to recruit and elf to crawl into the tailcone for me? It seems I recall John Cox posting some pics of a Cirus installation where they actually had afixed a wedge shaped piece of metal just forward of the port itself. Could a machined metal disc be affixed to the outside of the skin over the existing port? 4. If replacement is in order what has experience led people THANKS Deems Davis # 406 'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:08 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 From: "bcondrey" Hard to disagree with any one post on this subject - all are making good points. If you want to build an RV-10 and REALLY want to come in as inexpensively as possible, you would go slow build all the way and be ready to pounce on a used engine when the right deal comes along. Going slow build saves 11-12k over a quick build, and even in today's environment it's not impossible to find a parallel valve Lyc 540 for 20k or so. Of course, slow build will take longer to build than if you go quick build, and the engine would have some time on it. Engine may also be carbureted instead of fuel injected and/or be low compression (235 HP version instead of 260 HP). Multiple people have gone this route with engines and done very well! Those 2 factors alone chop 31-32k off the price tag! There have also been people that have used different (non-BA) props and saved another couple thousand. Bottom line: it's possible to be very frugal and end up with an RV-10 for a lot less money than some of the numbers thrown out. It would likely be a VFR cruiser but would fly just like all the other -10s. While many of us set out to build for IFR with datalink weather, traffic, etc. from the start, keep in mind that Van's factory -10s are VFR only and they take one to every major airshow in the country! The points are also valid about going in with your (budget) eyes open. Figure out what YOU want to end up with, make a budget to account for that and stick with it. Can you live with the stock pitot tube made from aluminum tubing (supplied with the kit) or do you "need" to upgrade to the stainless steel tubing version? Or maybe spend a few hundred and get the Gretz heated pitot tube - don't forget the $100 mount! Of course, you could get a certified pitot for just another few hundred (and you'll still need a Gretz mount)... There are many of these decision points along the way. The key to building as inexpensively as possible requires a lot of discipline and a game plan from the start. For the record, I am not in the Dean Sombke frugal club but I'm sure that his plane will carry about the same and cruise about the same speed as mine or anybody else's! Bob #40105/N442PM Only another month or two... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141598#141598 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:27 PM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? I think I may be one of the exceptions....most of my connections have be soldered. I left a maintenance loop in most of them and if I need to remove or replace something I will just cut the wires and re-solder. I also tried to make all my wire runs straight through, end to end. No connectors at the wing roots, etc. I am trying to eliminate as many possible failure points as I can. Of course, I could be all wrong and have created an enormous maintenance problem... Rene' Felker N423CF 40322 801-721-6080 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:56 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? My take on wiring items is to wire directly when possible and leave enough slack to install a Molex connector later. The caveat here is that there must be enough room to get the crimper and a hand to hold the wire. If the item has a pigtail, I might make a splice by spreading the strands (picture top of palm tree) and interfacing the two ends together, roll the 'bundle' together and solder. Don't forget the heat shrink. Linn do not archive John Hurst wrote: I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex connectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and Flo-scan units for easy installation & removal (if necessary down the road). Any recommendations before I finalize this area? Or would I be better off using butt connectors with these wires? I want to make the connections as easy as possible when the time comes to wiring. john 40102 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:54 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Stall warning location From: "plevenda@jvlv.lv" Well, count one for "candle moth syndrome". I pulled out my first quickbuild wing yesterday, which was the right wing. I set it on the table, removed the bottom skin and went to work. In the process, as I got around to the leading edge, I noticed the two pre-drilled holes for the stall warning vane. So I flipped to the page in the manual and went to work cutting out an access hole and the slot for the vane. Only AFTER I had all that done did I remember I was working on the right wing. It was also then that I noticed that Van's pre-driled holes for the stall warning on BOTH wings. Oh and yes there is a caution note in the manual, but like I said, "Candle Moth" In all my years of flying I was never given a reason why the stall warning is traditionaly on the left wing. So now do I accept an extra access hole, patch up the slot on the right wing and start all over again on the left wing, or is there any reason why the stall warning would not still work on the right wing even though it is not in the traditional location. -------- Paul Levenda #40090 N974LV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141602#141602 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:57 PM PST US From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Stall warning location Paul, Of course the safe answer is to ask Vans about it. However since the airplane stalls so wonderfully benign and level I can't help but think the AOA is the same on both sides at the same point so shouldn't matter which side the sensor is on. My unscientific opinion, Marcus 40286 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of plevenda@jvlv.lv Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 7:06 PM Subject: RV10-List: Stall warning location Well, count one for "candle moth syndrome". I pulled out my first quickbuild wing yesterday, which was the right wing. I set it on the table, removed the bottom skin and went to work. In the process, as I got around to the leading edge, I noticed the two pre-drilled holes for the stall warning vane. So I flipped to the page in the manual and went to work cutting out an access hole and the slot for the vane. Only AFTER I had all that done did I remember I was working on the right wing. It was also then that I noticed that Van's pre-driled holes for the stall warning on BOTH wings. Oh and yes there is a caution note in the manual, but like I said, "Candle Moth" In all my years of flying I was never given a reason why the stall warning is traditionaly on the left wing. So now do I accept an extra access hole, patch up the slot on the right wing and start all over again on the left wing, or is there any reason why the stall warning would not still work on the right wing even though it is not in the traditional location. -------- Paul Levenda #40090 N974LV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141602#141602 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:57 PM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? I think you brought up a point that really hit the nail on the head, although maybe a little backwards from the way you said it. I think the connectors may be a maintenance problem, not the continuous runs, because they are more likely to have a failure in normal use than a continuous wire. Where the connectors make the difference is if (read when?) you have to repair or upgrade in the future. If you could know the future of the plane, then the decision would be simple. So, for maintenance - continuous wins For Repair/Upgrade - connector wins All IMHO. PS. It's really nice being able to wire your wings when they are on the stand, then hook up the wing root and wing tip connectors when you are ready to assemble. It also makes it really nice wiring the fuse without the wings and not having to leave a coil hanging out there to run through the wings. By the way, the reason I am so talkative on this subject right now is I am in the process of doing wiring (to differing degrees) in 4 different planes, which will bring up the next e-mail with a different subject. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 _____ From: Rene Felker [mailto:rene@felker.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:57 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? I think I may be one of the exceptions....most of my connections have be soldered. I left a maintenance loop in most of them and if I need to remove or replace something I will just cut the wires and re-solder. I also tried to make all my wire runs straight through, end to end. No connectors at the wing roots, etc. I am trying to eliminate as many possible failure points as I can. Of course, I could be all wrong and have created an enormous maintenance problem... Rene' Felker N423CF 40322 801-721-6080 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:56 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? My take on wiring items is to wire directly when possible and leave enough slack to install a Molex connector later. The caveat here is that there must be enough room to get the crimper and a hand to hold the wire. If the item has a pigtail, I might make a splice by spreading the strands (picture top of palm tree) and interfacing the two ends together, roll the 'bundle' together and solder. Don't forget the heat shrink. Linn do not archive John Hurst wrote: I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex connectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and Flo-scan units for easy installation & removal (if necessary down the road). Any recommendations before I finalize this area? Or would I be better off using butt connectors with these wires? I want to make the connections as easy as possible when the time comes to wiring. john 40102 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:11 PM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RV10-List: Vertical Power For those who are interested, the Vertical Power system, IMHO, makes wiring the plane a LOT easier and a LOT easier to get your mind around. The load planning worksheet and schematics that VP provides are also very helpful. The ability to do most of your wiring on the bench in a single harness, built around the Control Unit, is really nice. The other wiring harnesses, like Auto Pilot and EFIS and Engine Monitor, can be added to the VP harness on the bench as well. The Radio Stack is easiest to do separately and wire together with the VP through a Connector (there's that dirty/clean word again). In short, I really like what I have seen of the wiring benefits of the VP. I will let you know my thoughts on the operating when we get N256H back into the air hopefully next month. It is going to look like a new plane, inside and out, and will have an upgraded panel (although not as upgraded as many started with). Do not archive. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:21 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Stall warning location I'm not sure that it would make any difference at all, but if I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel just like you do. And, if I were feeling that way, I'd probably proseal in a patch on the inside of that slot, and then use filler to fill the slot back up and make it smooth again. Then I'd put the slot in the other intended wing. No big deal. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive plevenda@jvlv.lv wrote: > > > Well, count one for "candle moth syndrome". I pulled out my first > quickbuild wing yesterday, which was the right wing. I set it on the > table, removed the bottom skin and went to work. In the process, as I > got around to the leading edge, I noticed the two pre-drilled holes > for the stall warning vane. So I flipped to the page in the manual > and went to work cutting out an access hole and the slot for the > vane. Only AFTER I had all that done did I remember I was working on > the right wing. It was also then that I noticed that Van's pre-driled > holes for the stall warning on BOTH wings. Oh and yes there is a > caution note in the manual, but like I said, "Candle Moth" > > In all my years of flying I was never given a reason why the stall > warning is traditionaly on the left wing. So now do I accept an extra > access hole, patch up the slot on the right wing and start all over > again on the left wing, or is there any reason why the stall warning > would not still work on the right wing even though it is not in the > traditional location. > > -------- Paul Levenda #40090 N974LV > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141602#141602 > > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:56 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? From: "John W. Cox" Hail - Hail to the departed James McClow and those intrepid builders who followed in his visual and grammatical footsteps. John C. 40600 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:55 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? Personally, install the connector, while it's out and easy to do. Leave a service loop to allow for easier removal and to apply the correct amount of slack to the bundle. The advantage of a connector is it allows easy removal...think away from home base. A connector also allows you to easily trouble shoot for shorts and continuity. For the few extra minutes and cents...it makes sense. Remember this quote from a pioneer RV building: "The more permanant yuo mqke a replacaible unit the more apt it is to flail." James McClow Rick S. 40185 Wiring DONE!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "linn Walters" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:55:39 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Pump & Flo-Scan wiring ? My take on wiring items is to wire directly when possible and leave enough slack to install a Molex connector later. The caveat here is that there must be enough room to get the crimper and a hand to hold the wire. If the item has a pigtail, I might make a splice by spreading the strands (picture top of palm tree) and interfacing the two ends together, roll the 'bundle' together and solder. Don't forget the heat shrink. Linn do not archive John Hurst wrote: I am installing the fuel system and am wondering if I should use Molex connectors or some other type of connector on the fuel pump and Flo-scan units for easy installation & removal (if necessary down the road). Any recommendations before I finalize this area? Or would I be better off using butt connectors with these wires? I want to make the connections as easy as possible when the time comes to wiring. john 40102 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Static ports From: "John W. Cox" Two pictures, one was Dr. Carl Cadwell's IVP and the other was the new Cirrus S-22, Generation 3 sitting on the restaurant grass in downtown Oshkosh this summer. Sidenote - Dr. Cadwell went on to build the first ever flying experimental Epic which started the 51% controversy. He is living life - Large and loving our right to build. John #600 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:09 PM Subject: RV10-List: Static ports I installed the Safeair static ports (see Pics ) I've read/heard that the ports themselves need to project slightly beyond the skin of the aircraft in order to function properly. These project slightly, BUT VERY slightly. 1. Am I going to have a problem w/ accuracy in instruments? 2. Anybody flying with these have any experience? 3. If they are problematic? Is there something that can be done from the outside of the a/c to remedy/fix or am I going to have to recruit and elf to crawl into the tailcone for me? It seems I recall John Cox posting some pics of a Cirus installation where they actually had afixed a wedge shaped piece of metal just forward of the port itself. Could a machined metal disc be affixed to the outside of the skin over the existing port? 4. If replacement is in order what has experience led people THANKS Deems Davis # 406 'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:57 PM PST US From: "Kelly McMullen" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10 Actually since price of avgas went over $4 Vans doesn't take a -10 to every show. Didn't bring anything but their -7 demo bird to Copperstate last year. As a result wound up having to go to Aurora to get to fly one...not a bad thing, just costly. On 10/24/07, bcondrey wrote: > Bottom line: it's possible to be very frugal and end up with an RV-10 for a lot less money than some of the numbers thrown out. It would likely be a VFR cruiser but would fly just like all the other -10s. While many of us set out to build for IFR with datalink weather, traffic, etc. from the start, keep in mind that Van's factory -10s are VFR only and they take one to every major airshow in the country! > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:15 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Static ports From: "AirMike" I was told that I should put an extra set (making 4) static ports with two dedicated to the TruTrak autopilot. My A&P friend told me to rig each set with the ports on each side of the tail cone and the connection fittings arching over the top of the tail cone. this arch prevents water from accumulating in the fittings. -------- OSH '08 or Bust Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141648#141648 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.