Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:13 AM - Re: First Flight (Michael Wellenzohn)
2. 03:20 AM - Re: First Flight (AirMike)
3. 03:44 AM - Re: First Flight (PJ Seipel)
4. 05:45 AM - Re: First Flight (darnpilot@aol.com)
5. 06:16 AM - Re: First Flight (Tim Olson)
6. 07:15 AM - A reminder on rivet lines in glass (David McNeill)
7. 08:12 AM - Re: First Flight (Marcus Cooper)
8. 08:16 AM - Re:Shipping costs (Robert Woods)
9. 12:13 PM - [ Rob Ray ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
10. 06:44 PM - Re: plexiglass bond to fiberglass (zackrv8)
11. 07:05 PM - Re: First Flight (linn Walters)
12. 07:30 PM - Re: First Flight Oil Temps (Albert Gardner)
13. 08:16 PM - Re: First Flight Oil Temps (Tim Olson)
14. 09:16 PM - Re: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes (Les Kearney)
15. 11:38 PM - Great results after installing new Trim Controller (Tim Olson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Congratulations Albert from Switzerland. Let us know what the reason was for the
high oil temps and what you did to get them down.
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (fuselage)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142119#142119
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Kuddos - beautiful paint job too. You are an inspiration
to all other "older" builders. Hope you get the oil thing worked out
without too much hassle. Did you use the Vans or the oversize
oil cooler? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
--------
OSH '08 or Bust
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142123#142123
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Very nice Albert! Congratulations!
PJ Seipel
do not archive!
Albert Gardner wrote:
> *N991RV first flew on 10/23. 4 hours now but oil temps are too high 245 so
Im trying to fix that. Otherwise, it flies great, just as I hoped. What a plane!*
> *Albert Gardner*
> *Yuma, AZ*
> * *
> * *
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Seems like the oil cooling problem is pretty common on the RV...even most experimental
planes.? Why is that?? What is the usual cause and/or cure?? Why not address
it in the initial assembly?? Why would it vary between airplanes?
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
This isn't to pick on Albert, who just started flying, of course. But,
After starting with high CHT's that would get easily over 410 in climb
even when solo and now having it stay well in the green with the whole
family on board, I can tell you that the builder has a lot to do with
the temps. I KNOW that I didn't do as good a job initially as I thought
I did. During the original build, you look at things, and they seem
to look fine. Things like how well you sealed around your prop governor,
and how nice your cowling ramps were done, and nobody even thinks
about between-cylinder casting crud. Then, when you realize you have
an issue (which just like many problems, first you have to *admit* you
have a problem), then you start to look very critically at things
again. I easily dropped 30-40 degrees on my plane after being diligent.
Also, during initial assembly, as you get to the engine and final
stages, the motivation to fly starts to overwhelm you and you start
to get builder-tunnel-vision to some extent...and that catches up
with you too. Truly, for many people, once you start to fly, you
can easily use up 40-60 flying hours of tinkering with your avionics,
systems, and engine to get everything perfect. Even to this day
I occasionally have things that I think can be improved. In a few
days I'll be writing one of them up.
As for why does it vary between planes.....well, the major difference
is that builders vary, but so do engines, props, cowls, and so on.
ALL of them can be made to work well, from what I can tell, but the
builder is the major factor. Even with the James cowl, that supposedly
promised more Knots and less Heat, the offline comments I've gotten from
a couple of flying James cowlers indicate they have speeds the same as
the other cowl, and actually have heat problems as well. Can't really
blame the cowl though until the builder does their diligence....and
once they get their mind around it, I'm sure things will improve
too.
There are a few planes out there with Louvres on their cowls, which
for some may actually be needed depending on the severity of their
environment. For many though, I think they're just a band-aid for
sub-par baffle work. I'd say fix the issues as best you can the
proper way and THEN see if you need them.
Anyway, the builder....that's usually the difference, and it's not to
insult anyone at all. I myself was in that situation.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
darnpilot@aol.com wrote:
>
> Seems like the oil cooling problem is pretty common on the RV...even
> most experimental planes. Why is that? What is the usual cause and/or
> cure? Why not address it in the initial assembly? Why would it vary
> between airplanes?
>
> Jeff
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
> <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970>!
>
> *
Message 6
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| Subject: | A reminder on rivet lines in glass |
For the recent builders: I visited Copperstate and admired a 10 there. We
discussed his paint job and looked at the fiberglass areas after 60 hours.
The external rivet lines that result from the cowling hinges and lid
attachment to the aluminum were beginning to show rivet heads through the
paint. This will occur unless the aircraft has a layer of Eglass over the
rivet line. Ask me how I know; I missed the few rivets around the oil door
on my Glastar. He also has an indentation beginning to show were the windows
meet the flange of the lid. Both problems can be avoided by glassing a 1
inch wide strip on a 45 degree bias around the edges of the window flange
and over the rivet lines in the cowl. The Eglass is then covered with a thin
coat of Evercoat finishing, sanded smooth and feathered into the adjacent
structure.
Message 7
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Congratulations! It looks great.
Have fun with the testing,
Marcus
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:08 AM
Subject: RV10-List: First Flight
N991RV first flew on 10/23. 4 hours now but oil temps are too high - 245 -
so I'm trying to fix that. Otherwise, it flies great, just as I hoped. What
a plane!
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re:Shipping costs |
Hey All,
Haven't been around in a while, been building the hangar. Be done next
week at 3L2.....Yea!.....Ive noticed while lurking when I can that there are
alot of complaints about shipping costs. I was having a huge problem at
work with shipping prices doubling and sometimes tripling for all kinds of
reasons all this year. I spend around 200 to 250K a year in receiving my
stuff. I had enough and asked my office for a solution......my secretary
found Unishippers. We tried them out on a small 3 day air order....This
order with the regular guy's.....you know who they are, was anywhere from
$860.00 to $980.00. Unishippers $248.00 and it was on time. WOW!.....We are
now using them daily....couldn't be happier. Hope this can help you guy's
too.............btw....everyone is making great progress on your
builds..keep up the good work.....I'm right behind ya
Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven DiNieri" <capsteve@adelphia.net>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Andair Fuel Valve - current sources?
I purchased my valve from Neal and thankfully he knew all the parts that
were needed for the extension. I probably would have ended up ordering crap
I didn't need. I attached I pic of my extension setup.
Steven dinieri
Iflyrv10.com
capsteve@adelphia.net
716.579.5790
William, I was looking at that and talked to them. I'm right now of the
opinion that I want the extension and that I want to lower the valve body 4
or 5 inches. That gives the SCAT tubing a clear run and seems to avoid any
rudder cable, fuel line interference.
The FS20X7T at Vans is a GREAT price and except for the extension, the right
valve. It is basically a drop-in replace for the kit supplied valve but
people seemed to have struggled a bit with the SCAT and rudder cable. I
thought that I might be able to pick the valve up from Spruce and an
extension from ACSpruce. But Spruce indicates that they only sell the
extension with a valve. The Andair site makes it clear there is an A and B
type valve - only the B will accept the extension. And, adding an extension
to a B is a bit more than just inserting a piece of rod. Andair will sell
an extension kit for a B model but by the time you get done, you are within
$75 of just ordering the whole thing from the factory.
I'm agonizing here a bit but the recently reported problems with the kit
valve pushed me over the edge to get the Andair. And once there, I'm trying
to get it as right as I can without recreating the same problems others have
had.
The frugal decision seems to be to use the kit valve The crafty decision
would be to get the Vans valve and solve the minor tunnel space issues The
do it as right as I can figure and damn the cost decision seems to be just
order the thing from the factory.
Did someone say 'budget'?
Message 9
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| Subject: | [ Rob Ray ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Rob Ray <smokyray@yahoo.com>
Lists: Rocket-List,RV-List,RV3-List,RV4-List,RV6-List,RV7-List,RV8-List,RV9-List,RV10-List
Subject: Bigger Tires
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/smokyray@yahoo.com.10.27.2007/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: plexiglass bond to fiberglass |
If you don't want to use Sika-Flex or Weld-On, try using 3M 2216 Structual Epoxy.
I use this stuff everywhere, even on my RV8 that is 7 years old and has over
1100 hours on it.
I installed my Rv10 windows, NACA ducts, Rudder Cable Fairings etc... with this
product. I was trimming around the interior windows with a razor and it slipped
and put a nice gouge in the window. I tried to polish the window scratch
out to no avail.
Ok. I neeed to replace the rear window. Got a chisel out and started to try and
pry it off. No luck. Started tapping the chisel with a hammer. Nothing.
I finally smacked the plexi with a hammer to beak it and create a place where
I could stick my chisel in and pry the plexi off. The plexi was "welded" on
to the fiberglass! I had to add heat from a heat gun to persuade it to come off.
Long story short....use 2216 epoxy for your windows if you want. It works, has
a slow cure time so you can work a little easier. Does not need a "primer".
Just rough up both mating surfaces with 40 or 80 grit. I forgot to mention
that I thicken up the epoxy with some 407 or 406 Colloidal Silca from West Systems
so it does not sag. Cool stuff.
And one more thing....Be careful with razor blades around your plexi.
Zack
See pic below...
n223rv(at)wolflakeairport wrote:
> Not to start a mess here..... I agree Weld On-10 holds the windows better
> than epoxy. But after having using Weld On-10 and having many issues with
> it (like it cracks the windows, even under light pressure clamping,
> flashes over very fast, gets very stringy, and is very hard to clean up),
> I am not going to use it on my RV-10. We had to re-install 2 windows (one
> being the 1/4" windshield) on my friends RV-10 do to cracks emminating
> from the adhesive joints.
>
> I spoke with Jeff at AirPlastics (they make the RV-10 window for Van's).
> He DOES NOT recommend using Weld On-10 as it is too aggressive of an
> adhesive and he said he has heard of many issues from it. He recommended
> other adhesives such as Sika Flex. When we replaced his windshield, we
> used the Sika Flex. There is a black primer you put down, then the caulk
> type adhesive. It worked great, was much easier to use, and the total
> cost was about the same as the 5 bottles of Weld On 10. I used Sika Flex
> 292UV black along with Sika 209 primer.
>
> I did not compare it side by side with Weld On-10 like eagerlee. That
> would be a nice comparison. But I did play with it on our old windshield
> and it is very strong.
>
> Just my $0.02 cents worth, after using them both to install windows....
>
> -Mike Kraus
> 2032 RV-4 Flying
> 40013 RV-10 FWF/Wiring
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > I got some Weld On - 10 and replicated my previous experiment with
> > structural epoxy as a bonding agent for the RV-10 windows. Again i scuffed
> > a test block of plexi and fiberglass, wiped clean with alcohol, glued and
> > clamped the pieces, let the glue cure for 24 hours. The difference was day
> > and night. When I hit the epoxy test piece with a ball peen hammer to
> > provide a sheer force, the bond between the Plexiglas and epoxy failed by
> > a clean separation with a moderate blow of the hammer. I could not get
> > the bond between the plexiglas and the Weld On to fail using severe blows
> > from the same hammer: the plexiglas itself failed first. I'm going to use
> > the weld on to fasten my windows and then fill the edge gaps with a
> > structural epoxy and do an overlay of glass fiber mat to prevent the paint
> > from cracking. One last comment: the Weld On was mixed by an eyeball
> > estimate of 13 to 1 ratio and had a date stamped on the carton Jul '06.
> > I assume that precision ratio and current mat!
> > erial would yield a stronger bond.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141889#141889
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142229#142229
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc07275_565.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
I'm going to float my opinion, so take it for what it's worth. I think
the cause is poor baffle seals, and the difference between planes is due
to difference in the sealing. Let's face it, using the upper cowl as
the top of the plenum is a poor choice to start with, and it only goes
downhill from there. It's not a new problem, even the certificated ones
don't seal well once they age a little. Sealing all the baffle leaks is
the biggest high temp killer you have.
So, what's the solution??? Mine will be to add a fiberglass (or carbon
fiber) sheet to make a plenum from the air intakes to the back of the
engine, using the stock baffles minus the baffle seal material. I'll pay
particular attention to the area around the starter and all the areas
where the aluminum baffle material meets the engine. One other
overlooked area is the gap between the spinner and the cowl. Air comes
into the inlet, and is sucked forward around the flywheel and then out
between the spinner and cowl. To seal this area, take some foam pipe
covers .... the type to prevent pipes from sweating and glue it in a
ring around the area just behind the spinner. A really tight fit is
good since on first startup it becomes self forming.
Linn .... but I'm nowhere there yet!
darnpilot@aol.com wrote:
>
> Seems like the oil cooling problem is pretty common on the RV...even
> most experimental planes. Why is that? What is the usual cause
> and/or cure? Why not address it in the initial assembly? Why would
> it vary between airplanes?
>
> Jeff
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
> <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970>!
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | First Flight Oil Temps |
Regarding oil temps.
Tim has some great advice (as always) and I am looking at various things.
The stock oil cooler for one. I have a 10:1 engine and it may always run a
little hot in addition to not yet being broke in. The 245 temps are at 2000'
and WOT and 80 OAT so it's near the worst case. Today, running at 16" MAP
and 1750 rpm oil was 203F. Looks a little better.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight Oil Temps |
You know, it may be premature to even start worrying about the temps
until you get 5 or 10 hours on it and the hardest part of the
break-in is done. I'd try to keep those temps under 220 if you can,
and run it hard like you are supposed to. But they may come down
on their own. My gut tells me to do like Linn said and check closely
around the spinner area and then around the ramps (make sure you sealed
off your upper air ramps internally), and see if there's anything
there you can improve. For you, living in AZ all year long, you
may actually find benefit from a different cooler, but for most
of the people I don't think they'll have the same worries. I worry
more about having oil temps get too low than too warm. You might
be right though that your 10:1 engine might be a little hotter
anyway. Time will tell. Will be cool to hear your progress as you
go. Glad you're as sharin' sort of guy.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Albert Gardner wrote:
>
> Regarding oil temps.
> Tim has some great advice (as always) and I am looking at various things.
> The stock oil cooler for one. I have a 10:1 engine and it may always run a
> little hot in addition to not yet being broke in. The 245 temps are at 2000'
> and WOT and 80 OAT so it's near the worst case. Today, running at 16" MAP
> and 1750 rpm oil was 203F. Looks a little better.
> Albert Gardner
> Yuma, AZ
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes |
Hi Again
I have a follow-up question for builders who have / are going through the
forward fuse construction. After a couple of emails / calls to Vans, it
appears that a reduced edge clearance for the to upper flange rivets is
okay. Unfortunately the edge clearances that I have achieved are still
woefully inadequate (at least to me).
I have spent quite a bit of time trying sort out what the problem is with
the WD1002. It appears that the edge of the top flange runs very close to
the line of rivet holes in the F1001B flange. As a result it requires
considerable clamping to get any sort of edge clearance when match drilling.
This clamping in turn seems to cause a distortion the firewall as it causes
a twist in the WD1002 base. I have this problem in both my WD1002 weldments.
Fortunately, the WD1003 weldments seem okay and require only a *little*
clamping to get good edge distances.
I would be interested in finding out if other builders have had the same
problem and if so how did they handle it.
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse ..
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: October-21-07 6:49 PM
Subject: RV10-List: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes
Hi
Last night I started match drilling the holes in the WD1002 steel weldment
that is attached to the firewall. Using the guide holes in the F-1001B as a
guide and after clamping the top WD-1002 flange to get the best edge
clearance possible, I still only got a 3/32 edge clearance (measured from
the edge of the rivet hole) on most of the holes.
Given that that the weldments are steel and not aluminium is this edge
clearance sufficient?
The archives indicate that that these parts have been problematic for some.
Based on what I read, I knew to be fairly aggressive in clamping the parts
to get the most clearance possible. Interestingly, I did have to shim the
side (towards the skin) WD-1002 flanges about a 1/8" to get reasonable edge
clearance. Even so, the maximum edge clearance would be just over 1/8" if
the rivets were evenly spaced on the flange. This suggests that 3/16"
spacing might be okay in this application.
Personally, I think this is one area where the plans should give the builder
a bit of a heads up as to what to do and what to expect.
Any comments or should I talk to the Van's order desk yet again..
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse ..
Message 15
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| Subject: | Great results after installing new Trim Controller |
For those of you who've had the opportunity to see the RV-10's elevator
trim sensitivy in action (especially those who've taken a demo flight
with me because I like to show them first hand), I have a great write-up
for you.
After talking with Bob about his "Safety-Trim" system, I was intrigued
because I was just about to finally tackle the touchy elevator trim
problem and his system did an even better job at addressing some issues
than what my plans were. So, I jumped on his trim controller in
hopes that it would be the holy grail of trim controllers.
Today I finished installing the 2-speed 2-axis trim controller, and
got it out for some flight testing. I think it's going to be a winner,
and I think it's something that quite a few of you would highly
appreciate.
Sorry that it's a long write, up, but it covers a lot of ground,
including my chosen method for getting dual-speed integrated into
the RV-10.
Here's the write-up:
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/upgrades/20071027/index.html
The devil's in the details of this one. Messing with trim is
something you want to do right.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
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