Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:23 AM - List of Contributors (Matt Dralle)
1. 04:36 AM - Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit (Russell Daves)
2. 06:17 AM - Re: fuel tank access panel, updated! (linn Walters)
3. 06:41 AM - Posting to boards (Pascal)
4. 06:44 AM - Blue Mountain AVionics (Les Kearney)
5. 07:02 AM - Re: fuel tank access panel, updated! (John Gonzalez)
6. 07:16 AM - Re: Blue Mountain AVionics (Rene Felker)
7. 07:33 AM - The RV-10 Family Place (Tim Olson)
8. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit (Tim Olson)
9. 08:14 AM - Re: Blue Mountain AVionics (Robin Marks)
10. 08:22 AM - Re: grounding question (Vernon Smith)
11. 08:50 AM - Re: grounding question (Tim Olson)
12. 10:09 AM - Re: Blue Mountain AVionics (Bob-tcw)
13. 10:18 AM - Re: fuel tank access panel, updated! (John W. Cox)
14. 10:48 AM - Test Flight Results (Dave Saylor)
15. 10:55 AM - Re: The RV-10 Family Place (Dave Saylor)
16. 11:10 AM - Re: Test Flight Results (Tim Olson)
17. 11:57 AM - Re: Test Flight Results (bcondrey)
18. 12:04 PM - Re: Test Flight Results (Perry, Phil)
19. 01:30 PM - Re: Test Flight Results (Dave Saylor)
20. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: Test Flight Results (Dave Saylor)
21. 02:18 PM - Re: grounding question (Vernon Smith)
22. 02:22 PM - Re: Test Flight Results (Tim Olson)
23. 02:53 PM - Screws (John Dunne)
24. 03:33 PM - Re: Test Flight Results (Scott Schmidt)
25. 03:47 PM - Re: grounding question (Ben Westfall)
26. 03:48 PM - Re: Blue Mountain AVionics (Jesse Saint)
27. 06:08 PM - VistaNav vs GRT (bcrnfnp@sbcglobal.net)
28. 06:32 PM - Re: Blue Mountain AVionics (Carl Froehlich)
29. 07:01 PM - Re: Test Flight Results (Dave Saylor)
30. 07:24 PM - Re: Blue Mountain AVionics (John Jessen)
31. 07:29 PM - Re: Trim troubles and mods (Bob-tcw)
32. 07:40 PM - Re: Blue Mountain AVionics (David McNeill)
33. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: Test Flight Results (Tim Olson)
34. 09:22 PM - Re: Blue Mountain Avionics (Les Kearney)
35. 11:11 PM - Re: Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit (Patrick ONeill)
Message 0
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| Subject: | List of Contributors |
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its sort of
my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)? As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least - if not a whole lot more - valuable as a building/flying/recreating/entertainment
tool as your typical magazine subscription!
Please take minute and assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is
fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by popping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
how the Lists have helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit |
I originally built a shelf across the longerons behind the baggage
bulkhead for a shelf to mount duel GRT AHRS and duel magnometers (AHRS
centered and magnometers left and right sides). Due to interference
from the battery (confirmed by GRT at OSH2007) I had to move the pilot's
side magnometer to the wing tip. I just clecod on a 90 degree bracket
to the wingtip rib (one cleco), leveled it, drilled holes for pop
rivets, and mounted the magnometer. Now everything works great.
Russ Daves
N710RV #40044 - 185+ hours
I have been reading this thread with interest as I am starting to look
ahead
to my avionics suite. I plan, at this point to install a Blue
Mountain EFIS
2 with an EFIS lite as a backup. Looking at the documentation,
they suggest
that the magnometer be at least 24 inches away from any ferrous
material
(bolts cables etc). They suggest placing it in either the tail
cone or the
wing.
Looking at the trail cone, would it not make sense to mount the
magnometer
on a bracket attached to one of the bulkheads?
A related question; where have you and others been mounting you
GPS
antennas? I was wondering if locating the antenna somewhere on the
top of
the canopy (on the inside) was practical.
Inquiring minds need to know
Les Kearney
40643 Frustrated in the fuse..
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank access panel, updated! |
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
> I took the suggestion of those that responded to my post and have
> found unfortunetly all the things I have been contemplating, worrying
> about over the last few weeks are true...The panel will not
> budge!!!!!!!!!
snip
> Thanks,
>
> Well thought out suggestion please!!!
Don't know just how well thought out this is ...... but under the
circumstances, I'd put the screws (with nutplates) back in ......but I'd
cut down the screw (without the nutplate) so that it barely extends
through the rib&cover ..... to get rid of the bending loads caused by
the fuel. Reseal just like you did before and add a note to your
conditional inspection checklist to check it during the inspection.
Linn
do not archive
>
>
> John G 409
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Posting to boards |
"Thanks for reminding me why not to post to these boards."
Doug and/or anyone else who sometimes is reminded why not top post;
There is absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't contribute. It is for
forums like this that we all learn. When someone says something that may not
be correct than those who (think they) know a better way can add their
wisdom.
I have learned much from hearing both sides of the story.. Sometimes even
rocket scientist think they know best but look at the state of the current
space shuttle to determine if we aren't building a better plane they they
are putting into space.. and imagine if they told us we need 1/2 inch of
proseal around the tanks.. Would we believe them simply because they do this
everyday?
Bottom line, post, ask, respond and let others discern who is right and who
isn't, ultimately there is more than one right answer to the problem and
unless someone like you contributes others will miss.. the rest of the
story.
Thanks!
Pascal
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "n277dl" <dljinia@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 8:24 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Removal of fuel tank access panel
>
> John,
> Thanks for reminding me why not to post to these boards. I do certainly
> appreciate your wisdom in correcting the errors of my ways as I don't
> desire to steer anyone wrong.
>
> Doug
>
> RV-7A flyer and -10 builder
>
> --------
> Doug
> RV7A flying ~500hrs
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145578#145578
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain AVionics |
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into
an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not
having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around
whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if
not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ..
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse
Message 5
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| Subject: | fuel tank access panel, updated! |
A few things I would like to add to this post for others to process.
While trying to take the cover off last night I was analysing the whole
process.
After removing the excess proseal from around and over the top edges of the
problem screw, I gripped the head of the screw with channel locks to see how
difficult it would be to remove by pulling straight up. I never got it to
move and the channel locks slipped off everytime. I physically needed to
unscrew the screw to break the grip of the proseal.
Here is what I think I have learned from this.
If one is not to use the supplied cork gasket with or without proseal then
perhaps do not tighten the screws so tight, this will allow the ability to
get something between the two metal plates.
If one scuffs up the aluminum prior to proseal application, the proseal acts
like a structural adhesive.
If proseal is placed on polished aluminum, like the parts come from Van's,
the proseal acts like a gasket. This is better for future panel removal.
Next time you use proseal place some on the two types of surfaces and see
what I mean.
Unless the heat gun really works on a test piece, the best remedy I can
think of is to keep the screw the same length, turn the tank upside down
(leading edge up) while placing the proseal back into this hole, the proseal
will pool up on the inside surface of the hole. Coat the threads and head
the screw with proseal and insert it back into the hole while rotating the
screw. The glob of proseal on the inside surface of the tank will chemically
join with the proseal on the end of the screw and it's threads. This will
work out even better then the screw placement before.
Conditional inspection a good idea, but would require an an access port
construction in the tank skin flange(don't think I can do this in this area)
or remove the tank every so many hours to check for leak which would mean no
paint on the wings.
Keep the ideas coming, it is actually a very good mental exercise
JOhn G.
>From: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: fuel tank access panel, updated!
>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:27:53 -0800
>
>
>I took the suggestion of those that responded to my post and have found
>unfortunetly all the things I have been contemplating, worrying about over
>the last few weeks are true...The panel will not budge!!!!!!!!!
>
>Just for the record, in the original placement, I did not use the cork
>gasket in addition to the proseal.
>I roughened up the aluminum with a scotch brite pad or 220 sand paper. I
>tightened down the plate with the screws, there is no room for a metal
>instrument let alone a fiber feinforced instrument.
>
>Tonight I attempted removal with an exacto blade to start, then a chisel(at
>the edge only) and obviously a plastic instrument which is no way stong
>enough to do anything. I didn't even get an edge lifted.
>
>I do understand why holes need to be deburred and why scratches lead to a
>failure in a piece of aluminum which is under force. With that said, let's
>move forward>>>>>
>
>The bond is so strong that it is like to pieces of glass put together with
>a thin film of water. We don't have the luxury of sliding the surfaces
>apart.
>
>If I really work at this I am sure I am going to destroy my tank. The
>entire rear wall of the tank flexs.
>
>Here is why I am trying to open the tank:
>
>Three weeks ago I closed the tanks. One weekend prior I riveted the
>nutplates to the tank and stiffner. I hadn't realized that one of my
>nutplates never got riveted,(couldn't find my dental mouth mirror and my
>head is not small enough to stick down in the hole). I even cleaned the
>proseal from the holes and didn't realize its absense. The week later in a
>rush before a doctor's appointment, I closed the tanks with the access
>plate and proseal. After placing the plate with the proseal and getting
>half the screws in one of the screws did not bite into anything(The missing
>nutplate). I didn't have time disassemble and to clean everything before
>leaving for my doctors appointment which would take me away form the
>project for atleast three hours. I just continued to close everything up
>and really coated the problem screw.
>
>So for three weeks I have been studying this situation, the tanks have been
>leak tested and passed. The screw with out the nutplate was sealed in with
>sealant through the hole and around and over the top of the screw head. The
>access plate top surface around the area of the screw was sanded and the
>bond to the proseal was exceptional. The screw in question was not the top
>screw but the next to the top when the tank is in the normal flying
>position. If for some reason it failed or leaked, fell out, it would not
>drain the tank. Remember, the tanks are not under pressure, but the
>sloshing of fuel might create a flex in the rear wall, but doughtful with
>the baffle ribs and the tank access panel being 1/8th inch thick.
>
>This was never in my opinion a strength issue, the stiffner plate was
>strong enough, there are 11 of the twelve screws in place at one inch
>intervals and the stiffner plate was independently riveted and also
>prosealed. Then the access plate is 1/8 inch aluminum bonded with proseal,
>as we learned tonight, appears to be bullet proof when surfaces are
>roughened up.
>
>Where am I now? No seal has been broken except the screws. No knicks or
>dings, so I will not take myself out of the gene pool by what I have done.
>
>Do I put it back as it was or do I attempt a heat gun(Does anyone know if
>this works?) and still posibly deform the rear of the tank.
>
>Do I offer to fly John Cox down to see just how easy this is(or isn't)
>
>Okay John Cox, time to shine on you Crazy Diamond.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Well thought out suggestion please!!!
>
>John G 409
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain AVionics |
I am not flying yet...but I have a BMA lite and GRT Horizon 1 in my panel.
When I pull the airplane out and power it up, I can already see a
difference...The BMA has better resolution and contrast, but is not steady
when the airplane is sitting still, the GRT seams rock solid. Just an
observation. I would recommend you talk to Stein at Stein Air, I think he
really understands all the options.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
801-721-6080
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into
an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not
having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around
whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if
not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ..
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse
Message 7
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| Subject: | The RV-10 Family Place |
Back in 2003/2004, we originally met some of the very early
RV-10 builders online on the yahoogroups RV-10 list. Many
of these builders, some of whom are flying and some of whom are
still in the later stages of construction, became "family" to me.
For various reasons that are irrelevant now, a while after things
really got going, we made the jump to the Matronics RV10-List,
and Matt Dralle, a guy who I've never met personally, put a lot
of time and effort into making the Matronics system something that
builders would really like. He added .jpg images that you can
actually receive in your emails, he added web forums for those who
don't like the email delivery method, he's prevented almost 100%
any SPAM from making it to our inbox, and he's provided an
unmoderated (or at least only minimally moderated) place for
discussion on literally dozens of various aircraft topics.
Not only that, but he does this without succumbing to the
ever popular "ad based" website support, so when we get our daily
fix of RV-10 information it works well on as little bandwidth
as possible on our end.
As I think back to the building process, guys like Rick, Bob,
John, Randy, Scott, Michael and COUNTLESS others have always been the
reason that I was able to feel welcome sharing, and be motivated
towards completion. I have both SAVED hundreds of dollars and
tons of time by reading tips from other builders, and I've also
helped to try to post back info that should save YOU many
hours and dollars. Regardless of the occasional poorly taken
comment by a builder here and there, we've been largely successful
being self-moderated, and I've found that it's rare that I
am willing to just "hit delete" on a thread. I thoroughly enjoy
getting my RV-10 information by direct email, rather than
daily digest or web forum, because it allows me to pick and
choose the true "gems" and file them away for safe keeping, which
is why I consider this site "home".
On my first year on the Matronics list, I don't think I donated
a cent. I wanted to just BE here first. After that, I gave a
donation, and every year after that I've increased my donation,
despite the fact that I've now been flying almost 2 years and
perhaps would seemingly benefit less from this list than a new
builder would. This year I figured it was time for me to
get the "2X years of the RVator", even if I'd never read it,
so I upped my donation again. I consider the benefits of
this list to be far more than the information, however, because
I continue to meet more and more people that really, truly,
are becoming extended family to my family. There are those
that my kids will be close to until well after I am gone.
That is one of the biggest benefits I get out of this list.
I tell you this because I emailed Matt before I left for Vegas and
asked how the fund raiser is going. Although I have no financial
stake in this, it means a lot to me that this email list is
here, and living without it is not something I'm interested
in experiencing. As it turns out, his donations have been running
a little slow this year. Considering that this site is not
ad-funded though, this site is truly "ours", so it is up to
us to determine the longevity of the Matronics RV-10 and other
lists. I know there are people who think that this could all be
run on an old PC on DSL, but the fact is, the subscriber list is
HUGE, so each post requires lots of server traffic, and keep
in mind there are dozens of separate lists, and beyond that,
the email you receive in your inbox is only 5-15% of the email
a server sees due to SPAM. Supporting this system takes a bit
of time, and money.
So I encourage you to take part in the matronics RV10-List,
participate, share, and meet the builders both around you and
at the same building stage as you. I've never been much of a
"search the archives" kind of guy, as it's nice to see the
new builders pop in to introduce themselves. If you're an
RV-10 builder on this list, I consider you one of my RV-10
brothers (or sisters), so I'm always happy to answer questions
here. That's why I call this place "Home". If you have
appreciation for what you get out of the list, don't wait
for November to blow by and miss a donation.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit |
I think within reason, you're basically right that keeping it high
will keep it away from sources of magnetic interference. It might
depend a bit on what AHRS you go with too, as some are able to
calibrate out some magnetic effects better than others. You just
want plenty enough distance to guarantee not being affected.
I'd actually recommend NOT mounting any location until you have
the actual AHRS and instrument in hand to do some testing.
In my install, with my hardware, I first put together a rough
shelf and then tested the Magnetometer and AHRS by doing things
like:
Turning on and off the master solenoid
Turning on and off and operating the Autopilot
Operating the Elevator Trim system
Moving the elevator controls and rudder pedals
You should not see any heading or attitude changes when doing
these things if you have a good location for your magnetometer.
(a stand-alone AHRS *should* be unaffected if there is no
integral Magnetometer)
On mine, I was able to pull up a calibration page that reads some
of the magnetic and positional information to many decimals of
precision, so I was able to watch that all move and see exactly
what kind of numerical effect I was causing as well.
At any rate, this is surely one of those things that you'll want
to spend some good time verifying once you have the hardware. As
Ray already pointed out, Garmin even had their issues with a
mounting in the tail (although that was much further back
than what I did), and they found the location unacceptable. So
it's not something to just slap on a bulkhead and call good.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Les Kearney wrote:
>
> Tim et al
>
> Reading my post I realized I left out one key point. When mounting on the
> bulkhead, I was wondering if it should be mounted high on the bulkhead near
> the top skin (as opposed to on the floor).
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
> Sent: November-12-07 5:01 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit
>
>
> Hi Tim
>
> I have been reading this thread with interest as I am starting to look ahead
> to my avionics suite. I plan, at this point to install a Blue Mountain EFIS
> 2 with an EFIS lite as a backup. Looking at the documentation, they suggest
> that the magnometer be at least 24 inches away from any ferrous material
> (bolts cables etc). They suggest placing it in either the tail cone or the
> wing.
>
> Looking at the trail cone, would it not make sense to mount the magnometer
> on a bracket attached to one of the bulkheads?
>
> A related question; where have you and others been mounting you GPS
> antennas? I was wondering if locating the antenna somewhere on the top of
> the canopy (on the inside) was practical.
>
> Inquiring minds need to know
>
> Les Kearney
> 40643 Frustrated in the fuse..
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: November-12-07 7:28 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit
>
>
> With the plans that come with it, how far away from the battery and
> any servos does it place the AHRS. You'd want to put as much
> distance between as possible, trying to get at least
> 20". Just wondered what the plans spec.
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Eric_Kallio wrote:
>>
>> I just bought one last week to see how it worked myself. It is a
>> simple shelf that looks to be plenty sturdy. It comes with a rib that
>> mounts to one of the floor stiffeners meaning you have to drill out 9
>> rivets. The tray then mounts to that rib and the bell crank platform
>> aft of the battery. It has match drilled nutplate attach holes for
>> the GRT and Garmin AHRS, but it can easily be modified to fit others.
>> I hope to get some time in the shop this week and get it installed.
>> When I get it done I will post a picture for you and see if I can get
>> the instructions scanned.
>>
>> Eric Kallio 40518 Floors and fuel system
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145336#145336
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain AVionics |
Les,
I looked at BMA very long & hard because it is so
enticing with it's apparent feature laden package. Unfortunately the
archives are littered with discussions on hardware & software& delivery
issues related to that product. I absolutely wish any and all glass
developers well when entering this market place and do not want to speak
negatively about any vendor that does not deserve the bad press but if
you are interested in true IFR flight I would suggest some of the other
low cost units, especially Dynon & GRT etc... I have been EXTREMELY
impressed with both of these companies and their offerings for the
price.
On my field LIVES a well known racer (no names) that is sponsored by BMA
so I assume he receives top support and the latest releases. When I ask
if he ever flies IFR with his BMA panel he just laughs. His screen has
gone black many, many times. You just don't hear about that happening
with other vendors like you do with BMA. Again it makes me ill to pass
this info along as I know it damages some very hard working people but
the thought of you flying in the soup with friends family and the only
thing you have to guide you is a blank display gives me the shivers.
Robin
Going all the way with G900X
Do Not Archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | grounding question |
This echo what other have suggested. The plan is to locally grounding the n
oise producers with a nutplate arrangement removing the primer from under t
he electrical terminal. Insulating the head jacks with fiber washers and ru
nning all of the audio/radio grounds to a single point ground on the fire w
all. My understanding this should eliminate the possibility of a ground loo
p noise. An exception to this is the strobe wire shielding which is grounde
d only back at the power unit not out at the wing tips, again I've read thi
s helps with the ground loop issue.
Idea Industries makes an anticorrosion gel for aluminum to aluminum and co
pper to aluminum electrical connections. It is not an aircraft product, how
ever I'm sure there is an equivalent aircraft approved material.
Vern Smith (#324 doors & top)
From: rv10@sinkrate.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RV10-List: groun
ding questionDate: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:20:32 -0800
What are people doing for ground wires for the nav, landing, and pitot heat
? Are you running separate wires for ground or grounding locally to the ai
rframe? This might be somewhat of a =93primer war=94 question as I=92ve he
ard some say always run ground wires and others say ground locally. Aeroel
ectric says local ground for =93non-noisy=94 items is fine. Just wondering
what others have done.
If airframe what kind of hardware do you use to get a solid ground connecti
on? Do you use regular AN nuts bolts and washers or do you use something l
ike a lock washer that has more bite maybe? Do you cover the nut/bolt with
anything to slow any corrosion being that you need to clean the primer off
the metal at the point of contact?
Yes John I=92ll wipe the dust off the 43.13 J
-Ben Westfall
#40579
_________________________________________________________________
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Stop
by today.
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Oc
tWLtagline
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: grounding question |
One correction....
The items that you should feel comfortable locally grounding are
the NON-noise-producers. The noisy items you'll definitely
want to pull back to a central ground point. Things like
a pitot heater though are generally not noisy, so many builders
will do local grounds for nav lights, pitots, and things like that.
I'd recommend going CENTRAL ground for HID's and devices that
have any "frequency" to the power.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Vernon Smith wrote:
> This echo what other have suggested. The plan is to locally grounding
> the noise producers with a nutplate arrangement removing the primer from
> under the electrical terminal. Insulating the head jacks with fiber
> washers and running all of the audio/radio grounds to a single point
> ground on the fire wall. My understanding this should eliminate the
> possibility of a ground loop noise. An exception to this is the strobe
> wire shielding which is grounded only back at the power unit not out at
> the wing tips, again I've read this helps with the ground loop issue.
>
> Idea Industries makes an anticorrosion gel for aluminum to aluminum and
> copper to aluminum electrical connections. It is not an aircraft
> product, however I'm sure there is an equivalent aircraft approved
> material.
>
> Vern Smith (#324 doors & top)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: rv10@sinkrate.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: grounding question
> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:20:32 -0800
>
> What are people doing for ground wires for the nav, landing, and
> pitot heat? Are you running separate wires for ground or grounding
> locally to the airframe? This might be somewhat of a primer war
> question as Ive heard some say always run ground wires and others
> say ground locally. Aeroelectric says local ground for non-noisy
> items is fine. Just wondering what others have done.
>
>
>
> If airframe what kind of hardware do you use to get a solid ground
> connection? Do you use regular AN nuts bolts and washers or do you
> use something like a lock washer that has more bite maybe? Do you
> cover the nut/bolt with anything to slow any corrosion being that
> you need to clean the primer off the metal at the point of contact?
>
>
>
> Yes John Ill wipe the dust off the 43.13 J
>
>
>
> -Ben Westfall
>
> #40579
>
>
>
>
>
> *
>
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf. Stop
> by today!
> <http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Blue Mountain AVionics |
Here's my view on the EFIS thing, we've effectively gone thru this
twice now. We looked real hard at BMA about 2 years ago when
planning our complete redo of our Glastar panel and decided against it
for some of the reasons Robin has already highlighted. Instead we
chose the Dynon D-100 series. This is intergrated in our Glastar and
has performed very well. I fly it IFR and VFR. We have also
installed 2 of the original small Dynon units in 2 other Glastars we
built, these were intended as back-up to steam gauges. Again Dynon has
done well and stood behind their product. Now for what I think needs
improvement. This is IFR specific, the resolution on the Dynon D-100
screen is just not fine enough on the HSI to accurately track the
localizer and glide slope (in my opinion of course) during the last mile
of an approach. The appearance of the horizontal and vertical bars is
just too fat to adequately communication slight deviations in course
during this very sensitive time of flight. I find that during this
time my scan goes to my traditional GI-106 indicator. Otherwise,
the Dynon has been an absolute outstanding value and rock solid.
(also note, I do not have the bright sceen option). Now for the
future. I've selected dual AFS 3500's to go in my RV-10. (I'm mainly
after bigger screens and the overlaid HSI view on top of the attitude
information) I'm still on the fence about adding a separate GI-106
indicator. I'd like to hear input from others on this.
Thanks,
Bob Newman.
Note: Our instrument panel can be seen at www.tcwtech.com, at the
bottom of the home page click on "see our new instrument panel N99RN"
Message 13
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| Subject: | fuel tank access panel, updated! |
John, send me your address and I will forward some plastic scrapers for
your project. Part-All is another step in the proper application and
removal of ProSeal. It is a release agent common to fiberglass form
work.
Be thankful we don't digress into adhesion accelerators for pro seal.
In a pinch, the judicious application of MEK with proper barrier
protection gloves will begin to nudge your stubborn sealant.
John C. - home from Graveyard.
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: RV10-List: fuel tank access panel, updated!
<indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
I took the suggestion of those that responded to my post and have found
unfortunetly all the things I have been contemplating, worrying about
over
the last few weeks are true...The panel will not budge!!!!!!!!!
Just for the record, in the original placement, I did not use the cork
gasket in addition to the proseal.
I roughened up the aluminum with a scotch brite pad or 220 sand paper. I
tightened down the plate with the screws, there is no room for a metal
instrument let alone a fiber feinforced instrument.
Tonight I attempted removal with an exacto blade to start, then a
chisel(at
the edge only) and obviously a plastic instrument which is no way stong
enough to do anything. I didn't even get an edge lifted.
I do understand why holes need to be deburred and why scratches lead to
a
failure in a piece of aluminum which is under force. With that said,
let's
move forward>>>>>
The bond is so strong that it is like to pieces of glass put together
with a
thin film of water. We don't have the luxury of sliding the surfaces
apart.
If I really work at this I am sure I am going to destroy my tank. The
entire
rear wall of the tank flexs.
Here is why I am trying to open the tank:
Three weeks ago I closed the tanks. One weekend prior I riveted the
nutplates to the tank and stiffner. I hadn't realized that one of my
nutplates never got riveted,(couldn't find my dental mouth mirror and my
head is not small enough to stick down in the hole). I even cleaned the
proseal from the holes and didn't realize its absense. The week later in
a
rush before a doctor's appointment, I closed the tanks with the access
plate
and proseal. After placing the plate with the proseal and getting half
the
screws in one of the screws did not bite into anything(The missing
nutplate). I didn't have time disassemble and to clean everything before
leaving for my doctors appointment which would take me away form the
project
for atleast three hours. I just continued to close everything up and
really
coated the problem screw.
So for three weeks I have been studying this situation, the tanks have
been
leak tested and passed. The screw with out the nutplate was sealed in
with
sealant through the hole and around and over the top of the screw head.
The
access plate top surface around the area of the screw was sanded and the
bond to the proseal was exceptional. The screw in question was not the
top
screw but the next to the top when the tank is in the normal flying
position. If for some reason it failed or leaked, fell out, it would not
drain the tank. Remember, the tanks are not under pressure, but the
sloshing
of fuel might create a flex in the rear wall, but doughtful with the
baffle
ribs and the tank access panel being 1/8th inch thick.
This was never in my opinion a strength issue, the stiffner plate was
strong
enough, there are 11 of the twelve screws in place at one inch intervals
and
the stiffner plate was independently riveted and also prosealed. Then
the
access plate is 1/8 inch aluminum bonded with proseal, as we learned
tonight, appears to be bullet proof when surfaces are roughened up.
Where am I now? No seal has been broken except the screws. No knicks or
dings, so I will not take myself out of the gene pool by what I have
done.
Do I put it back as it was or do I attempt a heat gun(Does anyone know
if
this works?) and still posibly deform the rear of the tank.
Do I offer to fly John Cox down to see just how easy this is(or isn't)
Okay John Cox, time to shine on you Crazy Diamond.
Thanks,
Well thought out suggestion please!!!
John G 409
Message 14
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| Subject: | Test Flight Results |
We just finished test flying, including the most recent flight at full aft
CG and gross weight. I put the plane on scales to load it so I know it was
right at the limit. It took 200 lbs in the baggage area, 200 in the rear
seats, and 400 lbs of pilots to get to aft C.G. at gross. Considering that
the normal baggage limit is 150#, I think you'd have to try pretty hard to
overload the plane or load it out of C.G. Still worth checking though.
At aft C.G. and gross weight we did approach stalls, zero G manuvers to
calibrate the AOA, slow flight, and cruise. Climb on a cool day from sea
level was near 1800FPM. Handling was normal athough the stalls seemed to
break more abrubtly than when it was light (at 2200 lbs it didn't really
break at all, just "mushed"). Heavy, it was still a very easy recovery just
by adding power.
This was the first cruise measurement we've made since installing the gear
fairings. We saw the standard 15 kt increase. At 5000', gross weight, 24"
and 2500 RPM we saw 177KTAS. We're RV grinning from ear to ear!
With the fairings installed we're at 1588 lbs. empty. Still no paint or
interior. I told the interior shop his budget was 8 pounds. He just
laughed...
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | RE: The RV-10 Family Place |
I second Tim's support of the list!
Just yesterday I saved at least a couple hours of work when two of us
stepped up at the same time while aft loaded. I had read here that without
a tail tiedown ring installed, that little maneuver would send the tail down
and smash the rudder cap. We smacked the tiedown I installed for that very
reason pretty hard, but no damage, thanks very directly to Matt Dralle's
efforts. That one little item was worth my donation this year. There have
been so many others...
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Test Flight Results |
Awesome, glad to see someone posting numbers! Have you calibrated
out the airspeed by doing the 3-way or 4-way GPS runs yet?
How was the static port error if any, if you have?
What RPM are you getting 1800FPM with for climb on a cool day
at sea level. Climbing at 2650 should bring close to 22-2300 if
you're flying alone, and full-up I can usually manage 15-1600fpm.
But, by reducing the RPM down to what some people climb at
(2500), it does reduce climb probably to about where you're
at, so I'm just wondering what the situation was around that
climb rate.
Makes it really worth adding the fairings, doesn't it!?!
Sounds like at full MP and the right load balances you'll
have no problem getting right up to Van's posted numbers!
I find aircraft loading, and many factors seem to affect
the absolute top end from flight to flight.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dave Saylor wrote:
> We just finished test flying, including the most recent flight at full
> aft CG and gross weight. I put the plane on scales to load it so I know
> it was right at the limit. It took 200 lbs in the baggage area, 200 in
> the rear seats, and 400 lbs of pilots to get to aft C.G. at gross.
> Considering that the normal baggage limit is 150#, I think you'd have to
> try pretty hard to overload the plane or load it out of C.G. Still
> worth checking though.
>
> At aft C.G. and gross weight we did approach stalls, zero G manuvers to
> calibrate the AOA, slow flight, and cruise. Climb on a cool
> day from sea level was near 1800FPM. Handling was normal athough the
> stalls seemed to break more abrubtly than when it was light (at 2200 lbs
> it didn't really break at all, just "mushed"). Heavy, it was still a
> very easy recovery just by adding power.
>
> This was the first cruise measurement we've made since installing the
> gear fairings. We saw the standard 15 kt increase. At 5000', gross
> weight, 24" and 2500 RPM we saw 177KTAS. We're RV grinning from ear to ear!
>
> With the fairings installed we're at 1588 lbs. empty. Still no paint or
> interior. I told the interior shop his budget was 8 pounds. He just
> laughed...
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA
> 831-722-9141
> 831-750-0284 CL
> www.AirCraftersLLC.com
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Test Flight Results |
Dave,
Are you using a 2700 lb gross weight?
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145770#145770
Message 18
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| Subject: | Test Flight Results |
Good report, Dave.
I might print that one off and hang it inside the shop. That'll keep me
focused on building. :)
________________________________
From: Dave Saylor [mailto:Dave@AirCraftersLLC.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Test Flight Results
We just finished test flying, including the most recent flight at full
aft CG and gross weight. I put the plane on scales to load it so I know
it was right at the limit. It took 200 lbs in the baggage area, 200 in
the rear seats, and 400 lbs of pilots to get to aft C.G. at gross.
Considering that the normal baggage limit is 150#, I think you'd have to
try pretty hard to overload the plane or load it out of C.G. Still
worth checking though.
At aft C.G. and gross weight we did approach stalls, zero G manuvers to
calibrate the AOA, slow flight, and cruise. Climb on a cool day from
sea level was near 1800FPM. Handling was normal athough the stalls
seemed to break more abrubtly than when it was light (at 2200 lbs it
didn't really break at all, just "mushed"). Heavy, it was still a very
easy recovery just by adding power.
This was the first cruise measurement we've made since installing the
gear fairings. We saw the standard 15 kt increase. At 5000', gross
weight, 24" and 2500 RPM we saw 177KTAS. We're RV grinning from ear to
ear!
With the fairings installed we're at 1588 lbs. empty. Still no paint or
interior. I told the interior shop his budget was 8 pounds. He just
laughed...
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Test Flight Results |
Yep, I checked the calibration of the indicator with GPS. I compensated
for wind by using the wind vector indicator on the EFIS and flying into,
away from, and perpendicular to the wind, and checking IAS against GS. I
was pretty surprised to see that my first try at static ports was accurate
enough to call 'em good. I used a gigantic pop rivet, then threaded a brass
screw into the stem and drilled a #60 hole through the screw. Sounds
complicated but it only took about 10 minutes.
RPM is 2700 or 2720 depending on where the governor settles down. I was
pretty happy with 1800 FPM at gross. More like you're seeing when it's
light.
We're driving 300 miles for Thanksgiving this year because the plane will be
in paint but I'm really looking forward to some extended cruising to sort
out more power settings, loading, etc.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Test Flight Results |
Yep, 2700.
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Test Flight Results
Dave,
Are you using a 2700 lb gross weight?
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145770#145770
Message 21
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| Subject: | grounding question |
Thanks for catching that. Just another good reason to post and contribute.
Vern (#324)
> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:49:31 -0600> From: Tim@MyRV10.com> To: rv10-lis
t@matronics.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: grounding question> > --> RV10-Lis
t message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>> > One correction....> > Th
e items that you should feel comfortable locally grounding are> the NON-noi
se-producers. The noisy items you'll definitely> want to pull back to a cen
tral ground point. Things like> a pitot heater though are generally not noi
sy, so many builders> will do local grounds for nav lights, pitots, and thi
ngs like that.> I'd recommend going CENTRAL ground for HID's and devices th
at> have any "frequency" to the power.> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> > > > Vernon Smith wrote:> > This echo what other have suggested. The pla
n is to locally grounding > > the noise producers with a nutplate arrangeme
nt removing the primer from > > under the electrical terminal. Insulating t
he head jacks with fiber > > washers and running all of the audio/radio gro
unds to a single point > > ground on the fire wall. My understanding this s
hould eliminate the > > possibility of a ground loop noise. An exception to
this is the strobe > > wire shielding which is grounded only back at the p
ower unit not out at > > the wing tips, again I've read this helps with the
ground loop issue. > > > > Idea Industries makes an anticorrosion gel for
aluminum to aluminum and > > copper to aluminum electrical connections. It
is not an aircraft > > product, however I'm sure there is an equivalent air
craft approved > > material. > > > > Vern Smith (#324 doors & top)> > > > -
-----------------------------------------------------------------------> >
From: rv10@sinkrate.com> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com> > Subject: RV10-Lis
t: grounding question> > Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:20:32 -0800> > > > What
are people doing for ground wires for the nav, landing, and> > pitot heat?
Are you running separate wires for ground or grounding> > locally to the ai
rframe? This might be somewhat of a =93primer war=94> > question as I=92ve
heard some say always run ground wires and others> > say ground locally. Ae
roelectric says local ground for =93non-noisy=94> > items is fine. Just won
dering what others have done.> > > > > > > > If airframe what kind of hardw
are do you use to get a solid ground> > connection? Do you use regular AN n
uts bolts and washers or do you> > use something like a lock washer that ha
s more bite maybe? Do you> > cover the nut/bolt with anything to slow any c
orrosion being that> > you need to clean the primer off the metal at the po
int of contact?> > > > > > > > Yes John I=92ll wipe the dust off the 43.13
J> > > > > > > > -Ben Westfall> > > > #40579> > > > > > > > > > > > *> > >
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > get=_blank>http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> > p://forums.matronics.com> > > > *> > > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--> > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9.
Stop > > by today! > > <http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2
=======================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
!
ilnews
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Test Flight Results |
Awesome, then them's is good numbers you got there. 1800fpm is
pretty good for full gross. I've never flown out of sea level
before, especially on a cool day, so I don't know exactly what I'd
have, but, it sounds like you're definitely going to be on the
well performing side of the pile. You should be pretty happy with
your cruise speeds, that's for sure.
Thanks for doing the good work getting accurate numbers to report.
I'm sure the pop-rivet static port style should give less error
than some of the other options, as it sticks out further.
I think you probably solved one of the down sides though by adding
the screw...gives more for the hose/tubing to grip to than just a
pop rivet alone. Good work all the way around.
When you get some purdy pictures, send 'em on!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dave Saylor wrote:
>
> Yep, I checked the calibration of the indicator with GPS. I compensated
> for wind by using the wind vector indicator on the EFIS and flying into,
> away from, and perpendicular to the wind, and checking IAS against GS. I
> was pretty surprised to see that my first try at static ports was accurate
> enough to call 'em good. I used a gigantic pop rivet, then threaded a brass
> screw into the stem and drilled a #60 hole through the screw. Sounds
> complicated but it only took about 10 minutes.
>
> RPM is 2700 or 2720 depending on where the governor settles down. I was
> pretty happy with 1800 FPM at gross. More like you're seeing when it's
> light.
>
> We're driving 300 miles for Thanksgiving this year because the plane will be
> in paint but I'm really looking forward to some extended cruising to sort
> out more power settings, loading, etc.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA
> 831-722-9141
> 831-750-0284 CL
> www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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|
I'm looking for the screws that you attach the garmin radio racks to your
framework with.
I think they're MS24693BB 's 6-32's maybe?
Any body got some clues on this and whether the countersunk flat head is
82deg or 100deg?
Thanks,
John 40315 (instrument panel)
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Test Flight Results |
At Nellis, the most asked question on Saturday and Sunday was, "Does this plane
really cruise at 170 knots like the ad says?"
I probably got this question about 6 times and I'm sure everyone else wondered
the same.
I told them it does and it will do more depending on how much fuel you want to
burn. It is funny that people don't believe it.
Now at gross weight and cruising at 10,500 - 12,500 ft. I get about 160 - 162
knots, but if I went lower and pushed my fuel burn up to 14-15 gph, no problem.
177 knots is awesome. I will have to load the plane up someday and scoot across
the ground at 800 agl (5000 ft.) and see what type of speed I can get.
Here are a couple more shots just to prove that this plane will cruise at 170 knots.
Here I am running ROP at 12.5 gph at 11,500. The TAS is 171 knots.
I should tell people the ad lies, it is actually faster than that.
As long as I'm attaching photos here is one more. I had the most amazing flight
about 3 weeks ago. There was a thin cloud layer at 11,000 ft., the sun was setting
and I was flying towards the tallest peak along the Wasatch Front. Of
course I did not have my camera, but I did have my iPhone with me so at least
I got a shot. You can imagine what a good camera would have taken. I was alone
and was wishing at least my wife was with me. To this day, it was one of the
best flights ever. The picture is looking down what is called Provo Canyon.
One flight like that after all the work you put into your RV-10 makes it worth
it. I feel like I have been paid back and should start again.
Every flight you take you feel like you won't be able to top the beauty of a certain
sunrise, sunset, cloud layer, ect... but then it will.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:22:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Test Flight Results
Awesome, then them's is good numbers you got there. 1800fpm is
pretty good for full gross. I've never flown out of sea level
before, especially on a cool day, so I don't know exactly what I'd
have, but, it sounds like you're definitely going to be on the
well performing side of the pile. You should be pretty happy with
your cruise speeds, that's for sure.
Thanks for doing the good work getting accurate numbers to report.
I'm sure the pop-rivet static port style should give less error
than some of the other options, as it sticks out further.
I think you probably solved one of the down sides though by adding
the screw...gives more for the hose/tubing to grip to than just a
pop rivet alone. Good work all the way around.
When you get some purdy pictures, send 'em on!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dave Saylor wrote:
<Dave@aircraftersllc.com>
>
> Yep, I checked the calibration of the indicator with GPS. I
compensated
> for wind by using the wind vector indicator on the EFIS and flying
into,
> away from, and perpendicular to the wind, and checking IAS against
GS. I
> was pretty surprised to see that my first try at static ports was
accurate
> enough to call 'em good. I used a gigantic pop rivet, then threaded
a brass
> screw into the stem and drilled a #60 hole through the screw. Sounds
> complicated but it only took about 10 minutes.
>
> RPM is 2700 or 2720 depending on where the governor settles down. I
was
> pretty happy with 1800 FPM at gross. More like you're seeing when
it's
> light.
>
> We're driving 300 miles for Thanksgiving this year because the plane
will be
> in paint but I'm really looking forward to some extended cruising to
sort
> out more power settings, loading, etc.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA
> 831-722-9141
> 831-750-0284 CL
> www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | grounding question |
Jesse,
Are you referring to the SA-9900 product from Stein on the accessories page
when you say "grounding tabs"? http://www.steinair.com/accessories.htm
Thanks for you input!
-Ben
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: grounding question
Ben,
The grounding tabs that Stein sells seem to work quite well riveted to the
structure with no paint between. The strobes I ground very close to the
battery-airframe ground, the nav lights in the wings, landing lights and
pitot heat I ground locally. Everything in the panel gets grounded to the
firewall. The lights in the tail I run grounds back to the battery ground
area. The headset jacks I do not ground, but use the fiber washers to keep
them isolated from ground. Everything from the stick grip(s) I ground under
the copilot seat, although most of those grounds are just grounding the
switch so when it is pushed it connects that circuit to ground to tell the
things to do it's thing.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: Ben Westfall [mailto:rv10@sinkrate.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 5:21 PM
Subject: RV10-List: grounding question
What are people doing for ground wires for the nav, landing, and pitot heat?
Are you running separate wires for ground or grounding locally to the
airframe? This might be somewhat of a "primer war" question as I've heard
some say always run ground wires and others say ground locally.
Aeroelectric says local ground for "non-noisy" items is fine. Just
wondering what others have done.
If airframe what kind of hardware do you use to get a solid ground
connection? Do you use regular AN nuts bolts and washers or do you use
something like a lock washer that has more bite maybe? Do you cover the
nut/bolt with anything to slow any corrosion being that you need to clean
the primer off the metal at the point of contact?
Yes John I'll wipe the dust off the 43.13 :-)
-Ben Westfall
#40579
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 26
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain AVionics |
Les,
I think you are starting at the right place. I have no experience with BMA
directly, so I won't say what I have heard. I have extensive experience
with Dynon (rock solid and very easy to use in my experience) and some very
limited experience with some of the others (AFS, Chelton, GRT, Garmin). I
have never, that I know of, heard complaints about any of these except maybe
that some are a little hard to calibrate. Again, starting with the EFIS and
working out is a good way to go. I think the next step from the EFIS would
be the GPS, if a good dependable one is not part of your EFIS already.
Then, IMHO, whichever TruTrak auto pilot does what you want it to with the
first two choices. Then, the radio(s) that are not already included in the
earlier items, then backups and aux stuff like audio panel, possibly
entertainment, etc.
As I am sure many know, my recommended IFR panel on a budget is a Dynon
D-180 w/ backup battery, Garmin 430W, Garmin SL-40, Garmin GTX-327, PS
Engineering or Garmin Audio Panel, TruTrak Digiflight II VSG or better Auto
Pilot (the Sorcerer is FANTASTIC), TruTrak ADI w/ internal GPS and backup
battery, Garmin 496 w/ XM Weather and internal battery, Garmin GI-106A Nav
Display, and a simple vertical card compass, airspeed indicator and
altimeter. It is definitely arguable that this is a solid IFR panel, and
although not as fancy as some, and certainly lacking some of the features of
a lot of others have in their panels, it is a good solid and stable panel on
a budget.
I can share some panel layouts using this basic setup if you would like.
E-mail me off the list if so.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney@shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into
an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not
having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around
whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if
not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ..
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse
Message 27
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Hi All,
I have always wanted a Chelton since way back in 2004-2005, however they are now
out of my price range. Then I thought I would go with a GRT double display/double
AHRS/double RAIM GPS,etc.
Now I'm considering a split system with GRT and VistaNav (Solid state disc drive
of course).
>From what I've researched so far, the VistaNav appears to be better than the GRT
system and a lot less critical where the reference unit is placed (i.e. under
the copilots seat)
I like the idea that they are considered a Class II EFB, can have a PFD and MFD
displayed at same time, are being used on the big planes, and even come with
a TSO'd version, and similar systems from them are used on military UAVs.
Anyone have any comments on this? I really like the GRT system, but VistaNav looks
good also.
TIA
Barry Chapman
RV-9A emp N621TC (reserved)
Message 28
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain AVionics |
A neighbor with a Blue Mountain EFIS/1 in his RV-8 for 4 years now has yet
to get it to work. On the few times the AI display came up, he told me it
tumbled within a few minutes. He has decided he will never fly IFR with it
(he is a retired airline pilot). Another local pilot with a Lancair 4 has
had his EFIS/1 out of the panel more than it has been in. Both tell me the
Blue Mountain customer service after the sale is poor.
I recommend you talk to a Blue Mountain owner. Perhaps my two data points
are not the norm.
On the other side, I have had excellent after the sale service from both
Grand Rapids and Dynon.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into
an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not
having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around
whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if
not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ..
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse
Message 29
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| Subject: | RE: Test Flight Results |
177 seems kind of high to me, but that's what EFIS said and I'm as sure as
45 hours of experience can make me that it's right. I wonder if having a
lot of nose down trim was a factor. I've heard that being tail heavy is
more efficient because it unloads the main wing, but then again the lift
(and induced drag) has to come from somewhere, even if it's from the tail.
I dunno. I'm anxious to get out there and get some more data, and see some
cool stuff like those mountains, Scott.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
Do Not Archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Test Flight Results
At Nellis, the most asked question on Saturday and Sunday was, "Does this
plane really cruise at 170 knots like the ad says?"
I probably got this question about 6 times and I'm sure everyone else
wondered the same.
I told them it does and it will do more depending on how much fuel you want
to burn. It is funny that people don't believe it.
Now at gross weight and cruising at 10,500 - 12,500 ft. I get about 160 -
162 knots, but if I went lower and pushed my fuel burn up to 14-15 gph, no
problem.
177 knots is awesome. I will have to load the plane up someday and scoot
across the ground at 800 agl (5000 ft.) and see what type of speed I can
get.
Here are a couple more shots just to prove that this plane will cruise at
170 knots. Here I am running ROP at 12.5 gph at 11,500. The TAS is 171
knots.
I should tell people the ad lies, it is actually faster than that.
As long as I'm attaching photos here is one more. I had the most amazing
flight about 3 weeks ago. There was a thin cloud layer at 11,000 ft., the
sun was setting and I was flying towards the tallest peak along the Wasatch
Front. Of course I did not have my camera, but I did have my iPhone with me
so at least I got a shot. You can imagine what a good camera would have
taken. I was alone and was wishing at least my wife was with me. To this
day, it was one of the best flights ever. The picture is looking down what
is called Provo Canyon. One flight like that after all the work you put
into your RV-10 makes it worth it. I feel like I have been paid back and
should start again.
Every flight you take you feel like you won't be able to top the beauty of a
certain sunrise, sunset, cloud layer, ect... but then it will.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:22:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Test Flight Results
Awesome, then them's is good numbers you got there. 1800fpm is
pretty good for full gross. I've never flown out of sea level
before, especially on a cool day, so I don't know exactly what I'd
have, but, it sounds like you're definitely going to be on the
well performing side of the pile. You should be pretty happy with
your cruise speeds, that's for sure.
Thanks for doing the good work getting accurate numbers to report.
I'm sure the pop-rivet static port style should give less error
than some of the other options, as it sticks out further.
I think you probably solved one of the down sides though by adding
the screw...gives more for the hose/tubing to grip to than just a
pop rivet alone. Good work all the way around.
When you get some purdy pictures, send 'em on!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dave Saylor wrote:
>
> Yep, I checked the calibration of the indicator with GPS. I compensated
> for wind by using the wind vector indicator on the EFIS and flying into,
> away from, and perpendicular to the wind, and checking IAS against GS. I
> was pretty surprised to see that my first try at static ports was accurate
> enough to call 'em good. I used a gigantic pop rivet, then threaded a
brass
> screw into the stem and drilled a #60 hole through the screw. Sounds
> complicated but it only took about 10 minutes.
>
> RPM is 2700 or 2720 depending on where the governor settles down. I was
> pretty happy with 1800 FPM at gross. More like you're seeing when it's
> light.
>
> We're driving 300 miles for Thanksgiving this year because the plane will
be
> in paint but I'm really looking forward to some extended cruising to
Message 30
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain AVionics |
On a budget? ! ! !
Well, guess we all have different budgets. Agree, however, that that is a
great panel. I would do the AF series, but otherwise, not bad. Not bad at
all, given what was available only a few short years ago.
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:47 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
Les,
I think you are starting at the right place. I have no experience with BMA
directly, so I won't say what I have heard. I have extensive experience
with Dynon (rock solid and very easy to use in my experience) and some very
limited experience with some of the others (AFS, Chelton, GRT, Garmin). I
have never, that I know of, heard complaints about any of these except maybe
that some are a little hard to calibrate. Again, starting with the EFIS and
working out is a good way to go. I think the next step from the EFIS would
be the GPS, if a good dependable one is not part of your EFIS already.
Then, IMHO, whichever TruTrak auto pilot does what you want it to with the
first two choices. Then, the radio(s) that are not already included in the
earlier items, then backups and aux stuff like audio panel, possibly
entertainment, etc.
As I am sure many know, my recommended IFR panel on a budget is a Dynon
D-180 w/ backup battery, Garmin 430W, Garmin SL-40, Garmin GTX-327, PS
Engineering or Garmin Audio Panel, TruTrak Digiflight II VSG or better Auto
Pilot (the Sorcerer is FANTASTIC), TruTrak ADI w/ internal GPS and backup
battery, Garmin 496 w/ XM Weather and internal battery, Garmin GI-106A Nav
Display, and a simple vertical card compass, airspeed indicator and
altimeter. It is definitely arguable that this is a solid IFR panel, and
although not as fancy as some, and certainly lacking some of the features of
a lot of others have in their panels, it is a good solid and stable panel on
a budget.
I can share some panel layouts using this basic setup if you would like.
E-mail me off the list if so.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney@shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into
an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not
having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around
whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if
not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ..
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: : RV10-List:Trim troubles and mods |
I'd like to share some insights into the engineering design considerations
regarding speed control circuits for DC motors. (the
Ray-Allen style trim servo uses a brushed DC motor)
I would discourage the use of a resistor type speed control for adjusting
the travel speed on the trim servos used in our RV aircraft for the
following reasons:
Adding a series resistor to the trim motor limits the available current to
the motor and although it will slow the motor down it also limits the
available motor torque (i.e.. its ability to move the attached control
surface). This could be undesirable as the loading on the control surface
will vary with aircraft configuration and performance. Although you may
"tune" the resistor combination to work in one flight regime it may not be
what you need in another. Now perhaps there is a suitable compromise
value you may find "works" for your plane, but have you tested it thru
temperature, airspeed and aircraft loading extremes? The fundamental
problem is that series resistor forms a voltage divider with the attached
motor, as you load the motor down, its impedance drops, this means that
more of the voltage available from the aircraft bus will be dropped across
the resistor and less will be available for the motor as you load it down.
This effectively makes this method susceptible to problems over full
operating range of loads and supply voltages. Again, you may be able find
a "suitable" value that seems to work, but be careful to test over a wide
range of conditions.
A second, more long term problem associated with this method of speed
control has to do with motor life. A brushed DC motor can develop a
condition which will dramatically shorten its operating life if it is speed
controlled by reducing the available current available to the motor. The
phenomena is most prevalent in motors that are used for short durations or
intermittent duty. The condition that is likely to develop is that the
dust from the motor brushes will pack the slots of the motor's commutator.
This dust is a combination of conductive particles (carbon from the brushes)
and any oil from the motor bearings. This substance is like a conductive
paste and it gets wedged into the spaces between the commutator bars. The
paste effectively shorts out the motor over time. Normally, when the motor
is run at its designed voltage or when it controlled by reducing the
available motor voltage, there is plenty of current available to burn off
this conductive paste, and the motor lasts its full rated life. However,
if the motor is speed controlled by limiting the available current (eg.
using a series resistor dropper circuit) the ability to burn off this brush
paste is greatly compromised. The brush pasted remains packed in the
commutator and the motor effectively gets shorted out and stops moving.
This usually is noticed when the motor is turned on, and the brush paste
just cannot be cleared. The motor is then done. I've seen this effect
ruin dc motors within a dozen accumulated run hours.
In the DC motor industry the accepted method of speed control for
brushed DC motors is to reduce the motor voltage without limiting the
available motor current. This is done by a number of methods which include
linear regulators, high frequency switching regulators or direct PWM (pulse
width modulation) to name a few. All of these techniques can reduce the
average voltage to the motor without limiting the available motor current.
Sorry for the long post, but sometimes the engineering that goes to what
seems to be relatively simple can have significant consequences.
Bob Newman
TCW Technologies
www.tcwtech.com
Message 32
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain AVionics |
Before I went with the Chelton as primary and GRT Sport as backup and XM
display, I checked with the L9(?) drivers in the PHX area. They had a full
time employee just updating the software and keeping the DBs updated. Also I
personally know a BM test pilot and he flies IFR with backup instruments and
three BM units in the aircraft. He indicates that the units reboot often.
Perhaps your best bet may be to find a satisfied BM customer and pick their
brain about reliability, and ease of support of the software and hardware.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
A neighbor with a Blue Mountain EFIS/1 in his RV-8 for 4 years now has yet
to get it to work. On the few times the AI display came up, he told me it
tumbled within a few minutes. He has decided he will never fly IFR with it
(he is a retired airline pilot). Another local pilot with a Lancair 4 has
had his EFIS/1 out of the panel more than it has been in. Both tell me the
Blue Mountain customer service after the sale is poor.
I recommend you talk to a Blue Mountain owner. Perhaps my two data points
are not the norm.
On the other side, I have had excellent after the sale service from both
Grand Rapids and Dynon.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into
an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not
having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around
whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if
not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ..
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Test Flight Results |
I think you'll find that adding some weight aft will add to your speeds.
Also, getting the magic 183kts is kind of a mystery, but it's doable.
It will depend on lots of factors like altitude, weather, and everything
else. I know, without a doubt, that I've seen 183 and even 185kts TAS
flat out before. The problem is, that was in the winter, at maybe
2500', with higher RPM's and plenty of fuel being poured on....maybe
24gph or so.
Realistically, you will probably find if you're a medium altitude flyer,
you can probably manage 170-172 kts TAS in cruise, at maybe 14gph.
Notice that Scott quoted in the 160's, ROP but with lesser fuel flows
than that, but, Scott's altitudes were higher than some of the legs
I've done too. I've had legs at 14k where I was in the mid 150's LOP
and that's all I've managed. I can USUALLY, if I cruise 7000-10,000',
count on a minimum of 155kts LOP, and more likely 160-165kts LOP, and
over 170kts ROP. But if I get too high, I'll maybe drop down in
the 155-160kt range. On the good side, on legs of 13K' or so, I'll
usually get LOP and be down in the 8.5gph range @ 155kts TAS.
So really, all I'm saying is, yeah, the -10 will make Van's numbers
no problem. But, you're probably not going to ever cruise at any of
the top speeds, and there are so many variables that it's going to
take more than a couple long X/C flights for you to find some of the
various combinations that work well. You may find that you do
one thing up high, one thing in the middle, and a totally different
thing down low.
For me, the biggest thrill has been the benefits of running LOP with
a good engine monitor. It's amazing, but I can even cruise around
at 125kts indicated while at 3000' or so, and get the fuel flow down
to about 7gph....so it'll do better than a cessna for your local
sightseeing too if you want it to.
Oh, and last week, when Scott took my kids and had more in the
back, he seemed significantly faster than me and my wife alone in
our plane. But at OSH, he only seemed about 2-3kts faster. So I'm
guessing loading played a factor in that.
One thing I'd love to hear from you after you get some cruising done
is what your favorite RPM is. So far I've heard from at least
2 RV-10 builders, with 2 different props, who both like the feel
of 2360rpm. Not 2350, not 2370...it's very interesting to me that
some of us can find some of these same sweet spots, and I'm wondering
if there are more who find that and we don't even know.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dave Saylor wrote:
> 177 seems kind of high to me, but that's what EFIS said and I'm as sure
> as 45 hours of experience can make me that it's right. I wonder if
> having a lot of nose down trim was a factor. I've heard that being tail
> heavy is more efficient because it unloads the main wing, but then again
> the lift (and induced drag) has to come from somewhere, even if it's
> from the tail.
>
> I dunno. I'm anxious to get out there and get some more data, and see
> some cool stuff like those mountains, Scott.
>
> Dave Saylor
Message 34
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain Avionics |
HI
Many thanks to all who answered my query. I have several more data points
upon which to base my decision. All very useful and all remarkably
consistent.
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: November-13-07 8:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
Before I went with the Chelton as primary and GRT Sport as backup and XM
display, I checked with the L9(?) drivers in the PHX area. They had a full
time employee just updating the software and keeping the DBs updated. Also I
personally know a BM test pilot and he flies IFR with backup instruments and
three BM units in the aircraft. He indicates that the units reboot often.
Perhaps your best bet may be to find a satisfied BM customer and pick their
brain about reliability, and ease of support of the software and hardware.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
A neighbor with a Blue Mountain EFIS/1 in his RV-8 for 4 years now has yet
to get it to work. On the few times the AI display came up, he told me it
tumbled within a few minutes. He has decided he will never fly IFR with it
(he is a retired airline pilot). Another local pilot with a Lancair 4 has
had his EFIS/1 out of the panel more than it has been in. Both tell me the
Blue Mountain customer service after the sale is poor.
I recommend you talk to a Blue Mountain owner. Perhaps my two data points
are not the norm.
On the other side, I have had excellent after the sale service from both
Grand Rapids and Dynon.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into
an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not
having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around
whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if
not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ..
Les Kearney
#40643 - Frustrated in the fuse
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Message 35
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| Subject: | Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit |
Thanks much for the pictures Ray! That helps a lot.
Unfortunately, I don't think I can use that as the AHRS station. The xbow
NAV 420 has an integrated 3-axis magnetometer. I can imagine the grief
trying to situate it 6 inches from a main battery wire. So it's back to the
shelf plan for me.
But that might be another useful station for something else. I'll have to
keep that bracket in mind for the future.
By the way, how are you prepping the inside of the tail cone surfaces? Is
that all just alodine? Looks great!
Anyone else currently flying with OP EFIS? Any location success stories or
problems with the NAV 420 AHRS?
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R
[NTK]
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 6:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit
<<IMG_0911.JPG>> <<IMG_0912.JPG>> <<IMG_0913.JPG>>
<<IMG_0922.JPG>> <<IMG_0923.JPG>> <<IMG_0907.JPG>>
<<IMG_0908.JPG>> <<IMG_0909.JPG>> <<IMG_0910.JPG>>
I was working with Garmin here in Olathe on this bracket and testing
it using my RV-10. Here are all the pictures I provided to Garmin during
this process. Van's actually created the bracket with the feedback that was
provided my Scott (Garmin) and myself.
By the way, I don't have either AHRS, but this bracket still makes
an excellent support for a 1" x 8" board when you need to crawl back into
the tail. We are still working on the bracket for the Magnometer, problem
is finding a good location that is free of magnetic interference to the
standards which Garmin has set for the Certified installations.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250
N519RV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick ONeill
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 6:08 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Vans RV-10 AHRS Mounting Kit
I just noticed that Van's is offering an AHRS mounting kit for the 10:
AHRS Mount Kit for the RV-10
Part Number = IF AHRS MOUNT-10
Description
Mount for Attitude Heading Reference System unit.
Provides parts to mount the AHRS unit for either the Garmin G900XT or the
Grand Rapids EFIS. Locates unit behind baggage bulkhead on RV-7, RV-9, and
RV-10.
Has anyone received one of these or better yet, any photos? I'm not getting
a clear picture of what it entails from the illustration on Van's web store.
It would be nice to skip fabricating an AHRS shelf.
I'm not sure which AHRS units are used by Garmin or GRT. I am trying to
figure out if it will accommodate the Xbow NAV 420 AHRS unit that ships from
OP. I also want to make sure it does not conflict with the ELT/Strobe PS
tray.
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715
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