Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:31 AM - Fuel line bend radius (Chris Hukill)
2. 05:05 AM - Re: Fuel line bend radius (David McNeill)
3. 06:30 AM - Re: Fuel line bend radius (Tim Olson)
4. 08:35 AM - Re: Flexible fuel lines from Andair to tanks (John W. Cox)
5. 08:45 AM - Re: wheel pants and leg fairings during flight test (Dave Saylor)
6. 09:49 AM - Re: Fuel line bend radius (William Curtis)
7. 12:01 PM - Re: Fuel line bend radius (William Curtis)
8. 02:52 PM - Re: Fuel line bend radius (MauleDriver)
9. 05:00 PM - Re: Fuel line bend radius (William Curtis)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fuel line bend radius |
I wasn't happy with the tight bends needed to get the fuel lines out of
the tunnel, nor did I want to use flex lines due to there service
lifespan. Instead I used 90 degree bulkhead fittings, going thru the
holes provided, but with .125 plates riveted over the holes, with the
proper size holes for the fitting. Makes a very nice looking transition.
Chris Hukill
winging it
Message 2
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| Subject: | Fuel line bend radius |
like this?
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Hukill
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:31 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel line bend radius
I wasn't happy with the tight bends needed to get the fuel lines out of the
tunnel, nor did I want to use flex lines due to there service lifespan.
Instead I used 90 degree bulkhead fittings, going thru the holes provided,
but with .125 plates riveted over the holes, with the proper size holes for
the fitting. Makes a very nice looking transition.
Chris Hukill
winging it
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel line bend radius |
That is a fantastic way to do it for those who insist on sticking with
the hard AL tubing. Why anyone would try to fish those things through
and around with all the bends in it is beyond me. Good job David.
The thing is, I found between 2 different orders of that tubing, that
just putting bends in some of it really stressed the tubing. I know
it isn't that way all the time, but at least one coil I purchased
tended to become cracked and brittle when doing any sharper bends.
So when you add the task of bending and rebending slightly to get them
run as a single piece, it starts to get a bit spooky as to how tough
they'll end up.
Nothing against well-done solid lines, but I just feel better having
a good flex line that has fewer connections in it that may leak, and
that have the ability to flex a bit without cracking.
For what it's worth, on the gear legs for brake lines, I've now heard
from one very good and experienced builder that his started cracking
by the upper bulkhead fitting, and that another builder had his crack
and brake and his brakes fail down by the wheel. So I know without
a doubt that we had 1 brake failure on a -10 and 1 that was almost
ready to happen. Then there was a person who's build-to-order
-10 had a hard line that was coiled around the gear leg and ran
next to a nut...but too close, so it laid against the nut and had
worn almost 100% through the tubing before someone caught it.
So, running these lines really requires care. Our pool of flying
-10's seems yet too few to be seeing some of these things if everyone
is very careful, so the real message is, whatever you do, do it right
and do it safe above all else.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
David McNeill wrote:
> like this?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hukill
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:31 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Fuel line bend radius
>
> I wasn't happy with the tight bends needed to get the fuel lines out of
> the tunnel, nor did I want to use flex lines due to there service
> lifespan. Instead I used 90 degree bulkhead fittings, going thru the
> holes provided, but with .125 plates riveted over the holes, with the
> proper size holes for the fitting. Makes a very nice looking transition.
> Chris Hukill
> winging it
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Flexible fuel lines from Andair to tanks |
Rick, I am back in Cambridge doing some research at the MIT Aerospace
Library on another matter but I will try to use the rising East Sun to
sneak up on you.
Chris made a great point that flex lines have a hard date - time
expiration like fruit or produce they have to be replaced at set
intervals.
I liked the comment made at MIT that "A correct initial solution to a
problem is better than masking its existance with redundant systems".
Whether flex, braided, teflon coated or solid, they all have a minimum
bend radii called out in the AC43.13. I will try to post the clip on my
return to the Left Coast in 36 hours.
I am having an early Thansgiving with my son before having to work
Thursday so our paying passengers can have theirs.
John C
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Rick Sked
Sent: Fri 11/16/2007 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flexible fuel lines from Andair to tanks
Bill,
I used the flex lines, made them myself, they seek their own radius if
you don't force them out of the tunnel through the same route as the
aluminum lines. I can't see any reason not to use them, although there
my be a bogey at my 6 coming out of the sun to tell me otherwise (NATO
name johncox) I terminated them perfectly at the wing root, allows for
flex at every area that may flex. I do plan on applying a time change to
them, just not sure what that is yet but I suspect a minumum of every
other or every third annual. Input for this is appreciated. They are
fairly inexpensive and easy to make once you know the correct length.
One real advanage is when using the andair, I could pull them togehter
and route the rear cabin heat scat right on by the side. Insulated of
course.
Rick S.
40185
----- Original Message -----
From: "MauleDriver" <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 12:26:57 PM (GMT-0800)
America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Flexible fuel lines from Andair to tanks
To those that have done this, any advice? Any concerrns about minimum
bend radius needed to get from the tunnel out? From what I've read in
the archives, several people have done this but haven't found a lot of
detail on the fuel versus the brake lines. (There may be more to see
once Kitlog starts working again).
I was planning to run the aluminum lines but am having a real hard time
getting it in the fuselage after applying (2) 90deg bends. Curving it
doesn't seem to quite work. I can simply force it in by bending and
unbending but it gets scraped up.
So before ordering more tubing, I started to think that flexible lines
might be a good if more expensive solution. Aeroquip hoses seems to be
a popular choice.
Bill Watson
40605
Message 5
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| Subject: | wheel pants and leg fairings during flight test |
I used some silicone fusion tape to pad the gear legs and brake lines, then
just zip tied the lines to the legs top, mid, and bottom. They were fine
for 40 hours.
I did all the flight testing with the brackets on the mains but not on the
nose. The nose bracket is kind of more natural in the fairing
anyway--that's were it will be when you install it on the fork.
Tim's extensions hung in the breeze too.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:24 PM
Subject: RV10-List: wheel pants and leg fairings during flight test
Have builders left the aluminium pieces on the nose and main wheels during
initial flight tests? How well do brake lines do when clamped in place
without fairings during testing?.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Fuel line bend radius |
Ditto. I did the same thing. I wished Vans would have made these holes 9/16 so
if you wanted to go this approach they would be unchanged and drill out to 3/4
for the standard installation. I made 1/16" oversized washers for both sides
to use the bulkhead fitting. I used a 45 degree bulkhead fitting however.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
-------- Original Message --------
>
> I wasn't happy with the tight bends needed to get the fuel lines out of the tunnel,
nor did I want to use flex lines due to there service lifespan. Instead
I used 90 degree bulkhead fittings, going thru the holes provided, but with .125
plates riveted over the holes, with the proper size holes for the fitting.
Makes a very nice looking transition.
> Chris Hukill
> winging it
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel line bend radius |
Let me add a contrarian (devil's advocate for John Cox) data point to this flexible
line mania.
My 1975 Cessna Cardinal RG has an electro hydraulic gear system with a combination
of solid aluminum and flexible hydraulic lines. For the solid lines Cessna
used bulkhead fittings at most locations where the solid lines have to go through
structure. The only flexible line in the system is at the nose gear actuator
where it is the only option.
There are no known gear-up landing incidents in a 177RG due to loss of fluid as
a result of failure of any of the solid lines. There are quite a few known gear-up
incidents as a result of failures of the flexible lines at the nose gear
however. Primarily this is because flexible lines are life limited and those
RG owners neglected to change them out ever 5 years. Teflon hoses are supposedly
without a life limit but even those I would change out every 10 years.
Fuel lines are the same in the 177RG, LOTS of bulkhead fittings and NO flexible
lines. In the RG gear leg, (which moves unlike the RV-10 leg) the brake lines
are hard for the straight portion and small flexible lines are used only on
the upper swivel joint and lower from the solid lines to the brake actuator.
Cessna obviously feels that solid lines and bulkhead fittings are more reliable
for fluid delivery than flexible lines. Cessna service history, and my personal
data points, seems to confirm this. And while manufactures are typically
motivated by cost, (flexible lines are more expensive) I don't think this is the
case in determining the type of line to use for fluid delivery in their aircraft.
As always, YMMV.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
-------- Original Message --------
>
> That is a fantastic way to do it for those who insist on sticking with
> the hard AL tubing. Why anyone would try to fish those things through
> and around with all the bends in it is beyond me. Good job David.
> The thing is, I found between 2 different orders of that tubing, that
> just putting bends in some of it really stressed the tubing. I know
> it isn't that way all the time, but at least one coil I purchased
> tended to become cracked and brittle when doing any sharper bends.
> So when you add the task of bending and rebending slightly to get them
> run as a single piece, it starts to get a bit spooky as to how tough
> they'll end up.
>
> Nothing against well-done solid lines, but I just feel better having
> a good flex line that has fewer connections in it that may leak, and
> that have the ability to flex a bit without cracking.
>
> For what it's worth, on the gear legs for brake lines, I've now heard
> from one very good and experienced builder that his started cracking
> by the upper bulkhead fitting, and that another builder had his crack
> and brake and his brakes fail down by the wheel. So I know without
> a doubt that we had 1 brake failure on a -10 and 1 that was almost
> ready to happen. Then there was a person who's build-to-order
> -10 had a hard line that was coiled around the gear leg and ran
> next to a nut...but too close, so it laid against the nut and had
> worn almost 100% through the tubing before someone caught it.
> So, running these lines really requires care. Our pool of flying
> -10's seems yet too few to be seeing some of these things if everyone
> is very careful, so the real message is, whatever you do, do it right
> and do it safe above all else.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> David McNeill wrote:
> > like this?
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hukill
> > *Sent:* Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:31 AM
> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > *Subject:* RV10-List: Fuel line bend radius
> >
> > I wasn't happy with the tight bends needed to get the fuel lines out of
> > the tunnel, nor did I want to use flex lines due to there service
> > lifespan. Instead I used 90 degree bulkhead fittings, going thru the
> > holes provided, but with .125 plates riveted over the holes, with the
> > proper size holes for the fitting. Makes a very nice looking transition.
> > Chris Hukill
> > winging it
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel line bend radius |
I like those a lot. I thought about the same approach. May take it.
Thanks David and Chris
do not archive
David McNeill wrote:
> like this?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hukill
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:31 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Fuel line bend radius
>
> I wasn't happy with the tight bends needed to get the fuel lines out
> of the tunnel, nor did I want to use flex lines due to there service
> lifespan. Instead I used 90 degree bulkhead fittings, going thru the
> holes provided, but with .125 plates riveted over the holes, with the
> proper size holes for the fitting. Makes a very nice looking transition.
> Chris Hukill
> winging it
> *
> *
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel line bend radius |
Forgot I had a picture of this on my site.
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/08fuselage/fuselage37l.html
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
-------- Original Message --------
>
>
> I like those a lot. I thought about the same approach. May take it.
> Thanks David and Chris
> do not archive
>
> David McNeill wrote:
> > like this?
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hukill
> > *Sent:* Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:31 AM
> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > *Subject:* RV10-List: Fuel line bend radius
> >
> > I wasn't happy with the tight bends needed to get the fuel lines out
> > of the tunnel, nor did I want to use flex lines due to there service
> > lifespan. Instead I used 90 degree bulkhead fittings, going thru the
> > holes provided, but with .125 plates riveted over the holes, with the
> > proper size holes for the fitting. Makes a very nice looking transition.
> > Chris Hukill
> > winging it
> > *
> > *
>
>
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