Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:11 AM - Re: RV-10 Door Incidents (bcondrey)
2. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: RV-10 Door Incidents (Tim Olson)
3. 09:02 AM - Re: pg 20-6 inboard bottom wing skin nutplate (Fred Williams, M.D.)
4. 09:22 AM - Re: RV-10 Door Incidents (Chris Johnston)
5. 10:31 AM - Re: RV-10 Door Incidents (Robin Marks)
6. 11:45 AM - Turner Checking In (Andy Turner)
7. 12:28 PM - Re: Turner Checking In (Carl Froehlich)
8. 12:32 PM - paint prices (David McNeill)
9. 12:33 PM - Re: Turner Checking In (MauleDriver)
10. 03:32 PM - Re: pg 20-6 inboard bottom wing skin nutplate (Jae Chang)
11. 03:52 PM - Re: Turner Checking In (Rick Sked)
12. 04:33 PM - Safety-Trim Update (Bob-tcw)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Door Incidents |
Just for the record the flush exterior handles from Steve DiNieri (http://iflyrv10.com/) don't change the stock latching/locking mechanism. I have also heard of one that completely disables the lock part but this isn't it.
No affiliation, just clarifying.
Bob #40105
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148045#148045
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Door Incidents |
The following was written by Russ Daves, who is diligently monitoring
the list from his daughter's house, but can't reply using that PC.
He asked if I could forward this to you all. The reply is in multiple
sections, so read them all...the're all great. The latches he was
referring to were the ones I thought I had heard were not locking
in positioning...not the ones Bob mentioned.
Tim
<in response to>
---------------------------
Also, as a sideline comment, I'm not sure but I believe one of
the flush latch mechanisms was lacking the ability to have a
detent for it to lock into like that, which is the reason
some have stated for NOT using at least that particular
3rd party latch set. It may be that things can be improved
somehow, but if you're going that route it's just something
that you may want to watch for.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
---------------------------
<Russ Daves writes...>
The Cross Aviation recessed door handles on N710RV DO NOT have a locking
indent. I installed a strap below the front part of the inside handle
an it slides over the inside handle when closed. I made the strap out
of heavy duty elastic material so that with a significant amount of
pressure the door could be opened from the outside in the event of a
crash/emergency landing. Not as good a design as the Van's indent and
if I had it to do over again I would not use the Cross Aviation recessed
handles.
Russ Daves N710RV
<in response to>
------------------------------------
I have/am considering a strap that limits the doors opening to 6 inches or
so for a combination of safety, ability to leave the door
"cracked" in hot climates
while on the ground, and as a strap to grab to shut the door.
I'll probably
do some experimenting once I get the doors installed.
>
> I think it's great that our list is considered not only civil
enough, but also
informative enough to attract pilots and builders from other
aircraft ranks.
Thanks for contributing to our greater knowledge!
>
> Michael Sausen
--------------------------------------
<Russ Daves writes.........>
I have a 12 inch strap installed at the bottom front of my doors that I
can reach up and grab while seated to pull the door closed. It is long
enough to slide the loop strap over my left thumb and I can keep the
door closed within about 3 inches while holding the stick and taxing.
In addition, after I land and my speed is down to about 40 mph I can
slide the strap over my left thumb and open the door and let in a
significant amount of fresh air while taxing to the hanger. See
comments below related to the door opening in flight about the
practaclity of the strap to hold the door closed during flight.
Russ Daves N-710RV
< In response to....>
----------------------------------------------
unless the strap kept it from opening
more than 1 inch or so, and the strap was extremely tough AND
pulled the
door in a forward direction, I don't think there's much you could do
to keep the door on. The force would just be too great. The thing
is, if that pin isn't in the proper place on the rear of the door,
it's going to torque and twist backwards and rip the hinges anyway.
I think, but am not positive, we've already seen hinges ripped in
half,
so that will give an indication of the force. The only real worthy
protection I believe will be making sure the pins are both latched
fully. Once you have that, I think it would take a real breakage
to have a problem.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
----------------------------------------------
<Russ Daves writes>
I have absolutely no doubt that the strap would tear off the door if it
was attached inside the airplane and the door came open in flight. Not
that the strap is a bad idea, only that it should not be attached inside
the airplane. Read below for more reasons.
Last fall I posted to both the Matronics and the VAFWWW web sites my
first hand experience with a door opening in flight. When it happened
in August 2006 right after my 40 hour flyoff had been completed I was
initially ashamed of my stupidity and waited a few months to make the
post to get over it and let other builders know of the pitfall of not
having a physical check of all four locking pins as part of the takeoff
checklist.
It was my first flight with a passenger (my wife) after the flyoff hours
and on takeoff, maybe 500 feet in the air, at about 100 knots the
pilot's door opened, all the way. Naturally I first flew the airplane.
You cannot believe how loud it was in the airplane. I reduced power
as much as possible, did a flat right turn slip of the airplane and
reached up with my left hand and grabbed the 12 inch loop strap, as the
flat slip turn reduced the pressure on the door, and pulled the door
back down to within 6 inches of closing. I continued the flat slop turn
back to downwind while announcing to the tower I was declaring an
emergency and returning to 17R for a landing. I could not make out the
tower's response because of the noise but continued to make the approach
downwind. on short final I could see an airplane still on the runway
from rolling out and did a 360 turn back around to final while again
telling the tower I could not hear them but was declaring an emergency
landing on 17R.
After landing I discovered that the rear door hinge had torn completely
loose from the fiberglass, the strut was broken, and the front hinge was
still attached but bent and had to be replaced.
I ordered a new front hinge set and a new strut. Epoxy Floxxed the rear
fiberglass where the hinge had torn completely off the cabin top and
repaired the door fiberglass where the hinge had partially tore out of
the door. In 3 days when the new hinge and strut arrived I installed
and was back in the air.
However I added to my takeoff checklist to physically check, by feel,
that all four door hinges were properly seated in the slots. Like Tim
my -10 had been completed before Van's shipped me the new door magnetic
pin system with a light on the panel so I did not have it installed at
the time of the incident. I have chosen to NOT install the light check
system since it would not change my takeoff checklist of physically
feeling that the pins are seated.
I now exactly what happened to cause the door to open. The back pin
slide outside the door frame instead of into the slot and on take off
the door torqued enough to allow the front pin to slide out. In my
opinion it will happen every time if both pins are not seated.
When the door was fully open, as I was continuing to fly the airplane, I
could just barely see the door strap out of the corner of my left eye,
otherwise I would probably have assumed the door had left the airplane.
What I found strange was that in over 30 flights during the flyoff hours
the door pins seated ever time, even though I had not been physically
checking the pins. I think the fact that it was the first passenger
flight and I was so concerned with the passenger door and getting my
wife comfortable for the first flight that I just blew it when I closed
the door. However it was a lesson which a couple of months after the
incident that I no longer regretted that it happened. Hopefully it has
made me and lots of other RV-10 builders more aware of a real danger
that has to be checked and is just as important as any of the other
items on the takeoff checklist.
Russ Daves N-710RV
bcondrey wrote:
>
> Just for the record the flush exterior handles from Steve DiNieri (http://iflyrv10.com/) don't change the stock latching/locking mechanism. I have also heard of one that completely disables the lock part but this isn't it.
>
> No affiliation, just clarifying.
>
> Bob #40105
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148045#148045
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: pg 20-6 inboard bottom wing skin nutplate |
Jae;
I went out and looked at my wings. Did the same thing. Just put the
nut plate over the end of the gap. Just like Mr Hein's pics.
Fred
40515.
Having fun with fiberglass. .......
ae Chang wrote:
>
> Happy thanksgiving! i know it's a holiday, because i always end up
> with a problem on the start of a holiday.
>
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/airframe/wings/photos/sec20/IMG_5509.html
>
> http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/airframe/wings/photos/sec20/IMG_5510.html
>
>
> The above photos show the bottom inboard wing rib. You can see where
> one of the nutplate hole patterns in the skin, lines up right between
> a notch in the rib flange.
>
> On page 20-6, it calls for a K1100-08 here, which matches the hole
> pattern pre-punched into the bottom skin, but this will make for an
> awkward rivet in the notch without a shim or another type of nutplate.
>
> Nothing in the archives about this. What am i missing or did i do wrong?
>
> Jae
> 40533 - back to the wings
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | RV-10 Door Incidents |
As a person who loves to redesign things and spend too much time and too
much money doing so, I have to say that I actually like the door latch
mechanism. I originally had thought that i'd definitely replace it, or
do something else cooler. when I got there, I built it per the plans,
and I got kind of a kick out of how functional they really were. as tim
said there's a positive latch that requires you to mean to open it, or
it doesn't open. I didn't really understand how the door latch was
supposed to work when I was putting it together, but as I got further
into building them, and the confusion waned, I was a little impressed
with the engineering of it. After it was complete, I made a few
adjustments to make the latch action smoother, but that was it. the
interior door handle is a bit ugly for sure, but I decided that I don't
care for now. Something that I get a kick out of is when simple stuff
just works. I will say that by far the best improvement that you could
do on the door latch system is use the Rivethead door guides. I know, I
know, lead time, slow shipping, whatever. All of this door departing in
flight conversation has me really happy that I made that one change.
The door opens and closes smoothly, and you really can't get it to a
place where you think it's latched and it isn't. Of course now having
said that, somehow my door will depart in flight anyway! :)
relevant links:
http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/Perfectlygoodairplane/Door_Handles.h
tml
http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/Perfectlygoodairplane/Rivethead_Door
_Guides.html
http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/Perfectlygoodairplane/Rivethead_Door
_Handles.html
cj
#40410
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Tim Olson
Sent: Thu 11/22/2007 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Door Incidents
IF....IF you ensure that the roll pin in the mechanism fits into
the slot, then there is no issue at all. The lock mechanism
is very secure on the standard kit. It's kind of like the
Air Force Symbol....a circle with a bar through it. When the
roll pin of the thing is rotated so it drops into that
slot, it is actually tough to get it to release. On my doors,
I have to tell the passenger that they may have to push down
slightly on the door lever while pushing the thumb button or
the rotational pressure will not let it release. It would be
almost impossible to release it in flight without doing
something pretty abnormal. So, it really isn't something to
get all worked up a bit. Unless someone wants to redesign
their doors with forward hinges, just resign yourself to the
fact that you'll definitely want to make sure they're latched
and use the warning mechanism.
Also, as a sideline comment, I'm not sure but I believe one of
the flush latch mechanisms was lacking the ability to have a
detent for it to lock into like that, which is the reason
some have stated for NOT using at least that particular
3rd party latch set. It may be that things can be improved
somehow, but if you're going that route it's just something
that you may want to watch for.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Les Kearney wrote:
>
> Hmmm
>
> This discussion of inadvertent door openings in flight is quite
interesting.
> In my PA28, I have had the door pop open a couple or four times
(usually
> because I didn't latch it properly and once because an examiner leaned
on
> the handle when I was doing an instrument ride.
>
> IN a PA28, this is a pretty benign event, the door only opens a few
inches
> and then stays put. It is closable in flight - a technique I have
mastered.
>
> It is the forward hinges on a PA28 that make this a non event.
>
> I was wondering if a latch on the forward edge of the door, engaged
when the
> door is locked would give the same sort of protection to the -10 gull
wing
> doors. I must admit the thought of shedding a door at 10k because a
> passenger accidentally operated the door mechanism is not a pleasant
one. It
> would seem that the key to keeping the door in place would be to
prevent the
> forward edge entering the slipstream and being strippedd away from the
> fuselage.
>
> Alternatively, is there a simple way to prevent the door mechanism
from
> being accidentally operated while in flight?
>
> Inquiring minds need to know.
>
> Les Kearney
> #40643 - still singing the section 29 blues
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: November-22-07 12:04 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Door Incidents
>
>
> That's what I was thinking too...unless the strap kept it from opening
> more than 1 inch or so, and the strap was extremely tough AND pulled
the
> door in a forward direction, I don't think there's much you could do
> to keep the door on. The force would just be too great. The thing
> is, if that pin isn't in the proper place on the rear of the door,
> it's going to torque and twist backwards and rip the hinges anyway.
> I think, but am not positive, we've already seen hinges ripped in
half,
> so that will give an indication of the force. The only real worthy
> protection I believe will be making sure the pins are both latched
> fully. Once you have that, I think it would take a real breakage
> to have a problem.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> rtitsworth wrote:
<rtitsworth@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Some ES guys have built such a strap. One thought/caution is to
build it
>> strong. My understanding (second hand), is that the Columbia pilot
had
> the
>> strap in hand at the time of his door incident, and the strap was
tore out
>> of the door (unconfirmed). The simple math might be something like
0.05
> psi
>> differential (conservative est) times the size of the door (~1,000
sqin)
>> 50 lbs. The actual force could be much more (> couple hundred
lbs??).
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
>> (Michael Sausen)
>> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 11:43 AM
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Door Incidents
>>
>> Rick,
>> ... I have/am considering a strap that limits the doors opening to 6
> inches
>> or so...
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | RV-10 Door Incidents |
Out of all the participants on the list you are probably the most
qualified to deal with a door coming off in flight. What's another jump
for you? Ohhhh sorry about that passengers!
I wonder if there is a way to design a thumb turn that engages the door
lock from the inside for the flush mount handles?
Robin
Do Not Archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Turner Checking In |
Builder #40784 checking in here. Andy Turner, Clarion, Pennsylvania. I'm far enough
into this process to see that I'll be asking more than few questions along
the way, so it seems appropriate to say hi before I start asking for too much
help. I'm a 2000 hr. private pilot, current owner of a C-172 and a C-140, both
of which I enjoy a great deal. My wife Sharon is an enthusiastic aviator as
well. We use the Skyhawk for cross-country travel, with several long trips each
year, and see the RV-10 as an upgrade over the Skyhawk. On the personal side,
I pay the bills by working as a college professor at Clarion University. My
research focus is on the ecology of lakes and streams. Thus, I spend a lot of
time both working and recreating outdoors. This time of year I spend my spare
time hunting in the woods of western PA, so the RV-10 project will receive more
attention once deer season is over in 2 weeks.
One question has come up already: I just finished riveting the rear spar of the
vertical stabilizer, and found that most of the rivet callouts seemed a bit long.
I had a few bent-over rivets, and ended up going with a size shorter for
most of the rear spar. I also found that my rivet gun handles the longer rivets
better than a hand squeezer does. Am I the only one to find that the rivets
called out in the plans often seem too long? Is a pneumatic squeezer less likely
to bend-over rivets than a hand squeezer?
--------
Andy Turner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148104#148104
Message 7
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| Subject: | Turner Checking In |
Andy,
In most cases, Van's rivet call out are close (if not slightly short) for
1/8" rivets, but 1/2 to 1 size short many of the 3/32" rivets. I have a
couple of pounds of 3.5 rivets left over from my RV-8A and now the RV-10.
Not sure how you are coming up with long rivet call outs.
The rule is use the correct size rivet. If you do not have a rivet length
gauge, get one. Here is a link to Brown Brothers for a rivet length gauge:
http://www.browntool.com/productselect.asp?productid=697
Here is a link for rivet shop end gauges:
http://www.browntool.com/productselect.asp?productid=696
Preventing rivets from bending first starts at using the correct length.
Second aspect is your proficiency with a squeezer. With time you get better
at it. Keep it parallel and steady (hard to do with a hand squeezer). I
strongly recommend you save yourself a lot of pain and get a pneumatic
squeezer now. Get a 3" or 4" yoke, along with the dimple dies and set
assortment. If you really need to you can sell it after you're done for
about what you paid for it (or just keep it for the next RV like I did).
Here are some links to Cleaveland Tool:
http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SNB214
http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SNY40
http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SNKITW
http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DIEKITW
Good luck,
Carl Froehlich (RV-8A) 375 hrs
RV-10 (wings)
Dogwood Airpark, VA42
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Turner
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 2:45 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Turner Checking In
Builder #40784 checking in here. Andy Turner, Clarion, Pennsylvania. I'm far
enough into this process to see that I'll be asking more than few questions
along the way, so it seems appropriate to say hi before I start asking for
too much help. I'm a 2000 hr. private pilot, current owner of a C-172 and a
C-140, both of which I enjoy a great deal. My wife Sharon is an enthusiastic
aviator as well. We use the Skyhawk for cross-country travel, with several
long trips each year, and see the RV-10 as an upgrade over the Skyhawk. On
the personal side, I pay the bills by working as a college professor at
Clarion University. My research focus is on the ecology of lakes and
streams. Thus, I spend a lot of time both working and recreating outdoors.
This time of year I spend my spare time hunting in the woods of western PA,
so the RV-10 project will receive more attention once deer season is over in
2 weeks.
One question has come up already: I just finished riveting the rear spar of
the vertical stabilizer, and found that most of the rivet callouts seemed a
bit long. I had a few bent-over rivets, and ended up going with a size
shorter for most of the rear spar. I also found that my rivet gun handles
the longer rivets better than a hand squeezer does. Am I the only one to
find that the rivets called out in the plans often seem too long? Is a
pneumatic squeezer less likely to bend-over rivets than a hand squeezer?
--------
Andy Turner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148104#148104
Message 8
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what kind of quotes and recommendations have 10 builders for aircraft paint?
My plans are a base color of Jetglo matterhorn white and a trim color of
Acryglo deep marroon. Design will be basic. I am located AZ so places east
of the Mississippi don't compute. Any recommendations for western US.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Turner Checking In |
Welcome aboard Andy!
Re rivet lengths - you are right, some rivet call outs are off by a half
size and Vans generally doesn't include half sizes (except perhaps for
the AN4263 - 3.5?). Clearly, with a bit of patience you can get away
with using the longer size. Or you can get a rivet cutter to cut them
down (too much work when more than 3 or 4 rivets are required). Or
better yet, you can stock a few of the key half sizes. Spruce and
others sell them and they are cheap. I forgot the key sizes to get for
the tail.
I'm grew up in Pittsburgh and used to spend a lot of time in the western
PA woods and streams. Miss them a lot.
Bill Watson
#40605
Durham NC
>
> One question has come up already: I just finished riveting the rear spar of the
vertical stabilizer, and found that most of the rivet callouts seemed a bit
long. I had a few bent-over rivets, and ended up going with a size shorter for
most of the rear spar. I also found that my rivet gun handles the longer rivets
better than a hand squeezer does. Am I the only one to find that the rivets
called out in the plans often seem too long? Is a pneumatic squeezer less likely
to bend-over rivets than a hand squeezer?
>
> --------
> Andy Turner
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148104#148104
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: pg 20-6 inboard bottom wing skin nutplate |
ok, thanks James and Fred for confirming!
Jae - 40533
do not archive
Fred Williams, M.D. wrote:
> <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> Jae;
>
> I went out and looked at my wings. Did the same thing. Just put the
> nut plate over the end of the gap. Just like Mr Hein's pics.
> Fred
> 40515. Having fun with fiberglass. .......
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Turner Checking In |
Andy,
Make sure that the rivet is really too long or not, 1.5 the diameter of protrusion
is a good rule of thumb. I found Vans had short callouts more than long in
almost all cases. The 470 rivets tend to be more of a challenge, make sure you
are applying force dead straight onto the rivet, any side force will bend that
puppy in a minute. I used a pnemumatic squeezer from start to finish, I would
not trade it for the world. It's worth every penny. When you run into a situation
where it appears the rivet may be too long as per the callout, step back
and make sure you haven't missed a doubler or another part in the sequence
of assembly, I heard of others doing this and I also hear some people have to
drill out a bad rivet once in awhile. Not me though, it's been perfect from the
beginning... heh heh...
Rick Sked
40185
bleeding brakes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Turner" <aturner@clarion.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 11:45:13 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Turner Checking In
Builder #40784 checking in here. Andy Turner, Clarion, Pennsylvania. I'm far enough
into this process to see that I'll be asking more than few questions along
the way, so it seems appropriate to say hi before I start asking for too much
help. I'm a 2000 hr. private pilot, current owner of a C-172 and a C-140, both
of which I enjoy a great deal. My wife Sharon is an enthusiastic aviator as
well. We use the Skyhawk for cross-country travel, with several long trips each
year, and see the RV-10 as an upgrade over the Skyhawk. On the personal side,
I pay the bills by working as a college professor at Clarion University. My
research focus is on the ecology of lakes and streams. Thus, I spend a lot of
time both working and recreating outdoors. This time of year I spend my spare
time hunting in the woods of western PA, so the RV-10 project will receive more
attention once deer season is over in 2 weeks.
One question has come up already: I just finished riveting the rear spar of the
vertical stabilizer, and found that most of the rivet callouts seemed a bit long.
I had a few bent-over rivets, and ended up going with a size shorter for
most of the rear spar. I also found that my rivet gun handles the longer rivets
better than a hand squeezer does. Am I the only one to find that the rivets
called out in the plans often seem too long? Is a pneumatic squeezer less likely
to bend-over rivets than a hand squeezer?
--------
Andy Turner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148104#148104
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| Subject: | Safety-Trim Update |
Fellow builders,
We have added some new application notes to our
web site this week. We now have a navigation tab, "Application
Notes" You'll see details on Pilot/Co-Pilot trim switch wiring as
well as details on our 2 speed models. visit www.tcwtech.com for the
details.
Hope all had a great Thanksgiving. We visited The Air & Space Museum
in Washington DC yesterday (yes it's open Thanksgiving Day !) and
recharged our aviation history batteries.
Regards,
Bob Newman
TCW Technologies
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