Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:18 AM - Re: oil canning revisited (John Gonzalez)
2. 07:25 AM - Re: oil canning revisited (Ben Westfall)
3. 07:49 AM - Re: oil canning revisited (John Gonzalez)
4. 08:03 AM - Re: oil canning revisited (Pascal)
5. 08:35 AM - Re: oil canning revisited (Tim Olson)
6. 08:51 AM - Re: oil canning revisited (John Hilger)
7. 09:28 AM - Re: oil canning revisited (John Gonzalez)
8. 09:58 AM - Re: oil canning revisited (Tim Olson)
9. 11:44 AM - Re: A Moment of Silence for our First Family (Bill DeRouchey)
10. 12:11 PM - Re: oil canning revisited (John Gonzalez)
11. 12:25 PM - Re: oil canning revisited (John Hilger)
12. 07:17 PM - Happy Holidays to the whole family (Tim Olson)
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| Subject: | oil canning revisited |
I have QB wings and everything on the top side is tight and all the skins o
n the bottom side inboard, which they did, are tight.
As for Opps rivets, the holes are not that large to use them, just the clec
oes don't grip well, the holes are slightly enlarged and with any bowing, t
he cleoceos come out with any rivetting.
Looks and feel are two different things. Push the bays in in the center and
see what happpens?
JOhn G.
Re: RV10-List: oil canning revisitedTo: rv10-list@matronics.com
two questions?
-Do you have QB wings or SB wings
On my SB the ribs bow as well and as far as the clecoing everything on (as
I have not riveted yet) everything looks tight
If QB- call Van's and ask what's up..
-Are you using the "Oops rivets" second time around?
If not order some since it sounds like you are in need of them.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Ben and Jim, I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as fa
r as the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 t
hat have canning. Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested
a few days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on th
e rework of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay
aft of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then agai
n oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel. Int
erestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at that se
am and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able to get in
it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole should not b
e clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when working forward?
???? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series
it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap a
t the LE will be too tight or non existent????? Ben, do you remember whethe
r your ribs were spring loaded causing them to bow in a direction opposite
their flange direction. I still think this is my problem as on the second w
ing I am trying every combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the
ribs have been rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a dru
m. Despite what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes
, the skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than t
he other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing in
ward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the neig
hbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction
instead of the opposite. There could be something unique to the way my wing
is before doing the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the wh
ole process seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am find
ing. Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating p
art of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it lin
es up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to get it
right. Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and
now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets,
I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel, t
he clecoes did't hold too well. Good Grief Charlie Brown. All I want from S
anta is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil canning in any of th
e bays. I promise I have been a good boy!!!! John G.
From: rv10@sinkrate.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: o
il canning revisitedDate: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one. Your
first post you said this:
=93I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft portions
of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as I was worri
ed that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat
on the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin
.=94
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up one rivet
at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you should be abl
e to cleco everything in its final place. There should be a small gap (1/3
2=94 at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the CLECO
=92d bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes up when you rivet
your way up a rib (If you work upward one hole at a time). I would not bou
nce from one rib to the next just complete one rib at a time. This helps p
ush any excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed togethe
r tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10 minutes on e
ach bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of material from the
skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from stamping out the skins).
It really didn=92t take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap after
riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank. The space is less than
a 64th I would say pretty much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don=92t know what to tell you.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of PILOTDDS@aol.comSent: Saturday, December 22, 200
7 3:18 PMTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RV10-List: oil canning revisit
ed
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin oil
canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I need
to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I
reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD
175hours
711 KT reserved
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | oil canning revisited |
John,
Most of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I had to move
them
maybe =BC inch in either direction to get the holes lined up at the
J-channel
(the one just forward of or just aft). I would bet your combination of
ribs
and bottom skins had just enough variance that riveting per plans or the
way
you did it would have caused the same result.
I don=92t have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses but here
are a
couple anyway=85
1) Call Van=92s and talk to them
2) Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and skins??? (ask
Van=92s).
3) Figure a way to =93shrink=94 the excess skin. Add a jchannel
or some
similar support??? (ask Van=92s).
4) How severe is the oil canning? Possibly live with it?
I would definitely get some oops rivets and drill the holes that are the
worst offenders to #30.
-Ben
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Ben and Jim,
I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far as the
oil
canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 that have
canning.
Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few days ago,
but
i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the rework of the
first
wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay aft of the spar,
just
outside of the outer most access panel and then again oil canning on the
second bay inboard of the outer most access panel. Interestingly, I
believe
I removed as much material as I could have at that seam and the seam
closed
up so tight a hair would not even be able to get in it. The dimpled
holes
started to not line up. Maybe every hole should not be clecoed and the
riveting should be every other hole when working forward????? Perhaps if
every hole is clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series it wraps the
skin
on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap at the LE will
be
too tight or non existent?????
Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded causing them
to
bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I still think this
is my
problem as on the second wing I am trying every combination with the
clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been rivetted (completing step
11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite what order I do the forward
portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the skin in the same bays as on
the
other wing still remain looser than the other bays. The only thing i can
attribute this to is the ribs bowing inward on these two bays. The ribs
are
bowing toward one another and the neighbor next to it is attributing to
the
mess by bowing in the same direction instead of the opposite.
There could be something unique to the way my wing is before doing the
bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole process seem
like
a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am finding.
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating
part of
the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it lines
up
flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to get it
right.
Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and now
all
the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets, I
know so
because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel, the
clecoes
did't hold too well.
Good Grief Charlie Brown.
All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil
canning in any of the bays.
I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
John G.
_____
From: rv10@sinkrate.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one.
Your
first post you said this:
=93I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft
portions of
the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as I was
worried
that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat
on
the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the forward(L.E.)
skin.=94
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up one
rivet
at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you should be
able
to cleco everything in its final place. There should be a small gap
(1/32=94
at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the
CLECO=92d
bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes up when you rivet
your
way up a rib (If you work upward one hole at a time). I would not
bounce
from one rib to the next just complete one rib at a time. This helps
push
any excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together
tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10 minutes
on
each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of material from
the
skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from stamping out the skins).
It
really didn=92t take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap after
riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank. The space is less
than a
64th I would say pretty much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don=92t know what to tell you.
-Ben
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
PILOTDDS@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
Subject: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin
oil
canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I
need
to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose
skin.I
reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim
728DD
175hours
711
KT reserved
Message 3
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| Subject: | oil canning revisited |
Thanks Ben,
All great suggestions. Definetly want to stay away from #30 rivets on the s
kins..too much force used to pound those. The holes aren't that large!!! Ma
ybe need to buy new clecoes or bend them for more gripping force.
Live with it is a possible solution, but I am a crazy dentist who is obsces
sed...it is likely to wake me up at weird times in the night when I should
be sleeping.
Thanks guys.
JOhn
From: rv10@sinkrate.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: o
il canning revisitedDate: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:24:44 -0800
John,
Most of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I had to move them
maybe =BC inch in either direction to get the holes lined up at the J-chann
el (the one just forward of or just aft). I would bet your combination of
ribs and bottom skins had just enough variance that riveting per plans or t
he way you did it would have caused the same result.
I don=92t have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses but here are a
couple anyway=85
1) Call Van=92s and talk to them
2) Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and skins??? (ask Va
n=92s).
3) Figure a way to =93shrink=94 the excess skin. Add a jchannel or s
ome similar support??? (ask Van=92s).
4) How severe is the oil canning? Possibly live with it?
I would definitely get some oops rivets and drill the holes that are the wo
rst offenders to #30.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of John GonzalezSent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:1
6 PMTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisite
d
Ben and Jim, I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as fa
r as the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 t
hat have canning. Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested
a few days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on th
e rework of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay
aft of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then agai
n oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel. Int
erestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at that se
am and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able to get in
it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole should not b
e clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when working forward?
???? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series
it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap a
t the LE will be too tight or non existent????? Ben, do you remember whethe
r your ribs were spring loaded causing them to bow in a direction opposite
their flange direction. I still think this is my problem as on the second w
ing I am trying every combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the
ribs have been rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a dru
m. Despite what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes
, the skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than t
he other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing in
ward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the neig
hbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction
instead of the opposite. There could be something unique to the way my wing
is before doing the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the wh
ole process seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am find
ing. Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating p
art of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it lin
es up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to get it
right. Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and
now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets,
I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel, t
he clecoes did't hold too well. Good Grief Charlie Brown. All I want from S
anta is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil canning in any of th
e bays. I promise I have been a good boy!!!! John G.
From: rv10@sinkrate.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: o
il canning revisitedDate: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one. Your
first post you said this:
=93I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft portions
of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as I was worri
ed that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat
on the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin
.=94
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up one rivet
at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you should be abl
e to cleco everything in its final place. There should be a small gap (1/3
2=94 at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the CLECO
=92d bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes up when you rivet
your way up a rib (If you work upward one hole at a time). I would not bou
nce from one rib to the next just complete one rib at a time. This helps p
ush any excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed togethe
r tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10 minutes on e
ach bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of material from the
skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from stamping out the skins).
It really didn=92t take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap after
riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank. The space is less than
a 64th I would say pretty much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don=92t know what to tell you.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of PILOTDDS@aol.comSent: Saturday, December 22, 200
7 3:18 PMTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RV10-List: oil canning revisit
ed
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin oil
canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I need
to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I
reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD
175hours
711 KT reserved http://www.matronics.com
/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matr
onics.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: oil canning revisited |
Being it is QB, it should be assumed they set your wings up correctly,
versus something you did. I would call Van's and tell them working with
their wing following their instructions you are receiving the oil
canning and see what they suggest.
Good thing about QB there are a few of the same wings out there and it
should be easier to figure out than having a Self Build wing were the
builder may have done something unique.
You might still want to consider getting Oops rivets, if there are a few
in a row, which it sounds like, and there isn't that much tightness
using the clecoes you may have some looseness that may, just may, be an
issue later, also by drilling the #30 hole you might be able to pull the
skin a little.
Call Van's.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:18 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
I have QB wings and everything on the top side is tight and all the
skins on the bottom side inboard, which they did, are tight.
As for Opps rivets, the holes are not that large to use them, just the
clecoes don't grip well, the holes are slightly enlarged and with any
bowing, the cleoceos come out with any rivetting.
Looks and feel are two different things. Push the bays in in the
center and see what happpens?
JOhn G.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:48:40 -0800
From: rv10builder@verizon.net
Subject: Re: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
two questions?
-Do you have QB wings or SB wings
On my SB the ribs bow as well and as far as the clecoing everything
on (as I have not riveted yet) everything looks tight
If QB- call Van's and ask what's up..
-Are you using the "Oops rivets" second time around?
If not order some since it sounds like you are in need of them.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Ben and Jim,
I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far as
the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2
that have canning.
Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few
days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the
rework of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the
bay aft of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and
then again oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most
access panel. Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I
could have at that seam and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not
even be able to get in it. The dimpled holes started to not line up.
Maybe every hole should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every
other hole when working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed
and every hole rivetted in in series it wraps the skin on too tight of a
smaller arc and then it means the gap at the LE will be too tight or non
existent?????
Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded causing
them to bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I still
think this is my problem as on the second wing I am trying every
combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been
rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite
what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the
skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than the
other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing
inward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the
neighbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same
direction instead of the opposite.
There could be something unique to the way my wing is before doing
the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole process
seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am finding.
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most
frustrating part of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage
door and it lines up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of
carrying on to get it right.
Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem
and now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding
rivets, I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J
channel, the clecoes did't hold too well.
Good Grief Charlie Brown.
All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with
no oil canning in any of the bays.
I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
John G.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rv10@sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first
one. Your first post you said this:
=93I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the
aft portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main
spar, as I was worried that if I kept working forward I would prevent
the skin from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung up on the
edge of the forward(L.E.) skin.=94
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way
up one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs
you should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There should
be a small gap (1/32=94 at the most) between the leading edge or gas
tank skins and the CLECO=92d bottom skin. This gap just about
completely closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work
upward one hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the next
just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any excess out towards
the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together tightly you did not
remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10
minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of
material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from
stamping out the skins). It really didn=92t take that long. Attached
is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and the
gas tank. The space is less than a 64th I would say pretty much all the
way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don=92t know what to tell you.
-Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
PILOTDDS@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom
wing skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and
reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with
unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear about others
succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD 175hours
711 KT reserved
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
p://forums.matronics.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: oil canning revisited |
Question John,
Is this really "oil canning" where the skin pops when it goes
back and forth, or is it just looseness in the skins, where
you get some flexing?
I did have oil canning near my stall warning access plate
after doing that, so I had to add some stiffners. Everywhere
else was fine though. As for doing things like access plates
for the stall warning and rudder trim, I think better results
will be had by countersinking those rivets instead of dimpling,
and then squeezing more softly. That way you're not inducing
a lot of stresses into the metal of those areas.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
> Ben and Jim,
>
> I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far as the
> oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 that
> have canning.
>
> Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few days ago,
> but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the rework of
> the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay aft of
> the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then again oil
> canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel.
> Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at
> that seam and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able
> to get in it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole
> should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when
> working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole
> rivetted in in series it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc
> and then it means the gap at the LE will be too tight or non existent?????
>
> Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded causing them
> to bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I still think
> this is my problem as on the second wing I am trying every combination
> with the clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been rivetted
> (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite what order
> I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the skin in the
> same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than the other bays.
> The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing inward on
> these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the neighbor
> next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction
> instead of the opposite.
>
> There could be something unique to the way my wing is before doing the
> bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole process seem
> like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am finding.
>
> Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating
> part of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it
> lines up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to
> get it right.
>
> Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and now
> all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets, I
> know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel,
> the clecoes did't hold too well.
>
> Good Grief Charlie Brown.
>
> All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil
> canning in any of the bays.
>
> I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
>
> John G.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: rv10@sinkrate.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
>
> John,
>
>
>
> I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one.
> Your first post you said this:
>
>
>
> |*I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft
> portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main
> spar, as I was worried that if I kept working forward I would
> prevent the skin from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung
> up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin.*|
>
>
>
> I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up
> one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs
> you should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There
> should be a small gap (1/32 at the most) between the leading edge
> or gas tank skins and the CLECOd bottom skin. This gap just about
> completely closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work
> upward one hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the
> next just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any excess
> out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together
> tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
>
>
>
> Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10
> minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit
> of material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from
> stamping out the skins). It really didnt take that long. Attached
> is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and
> the gas tank. The space is less than a 64^th I would say pretty
> much all the way down the entire wing.
>
>
>
> Is it correctable now??? I dont know what to tell you.
>
>
>
> -Ben
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *PILOTDDS@aol.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: oil canning revisited
>
>
>
> Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing
> skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and
> reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels
> with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear
> about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD
> 175hours
>
> 711 KT reserved
>
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: oil canning revisited |
John
One additional question, are your wings laying upside down on the work
bench while riveting?
Or are they trailing edge up in the wing cradle?
Could make a difference in the oil canning.
John H.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Thanks Ben,
All great suggestions. Definetly want to stay away from #30 rivets on
the skins..too much force used to pound those. The holes aren't that
large!!! Maybe need to buy new clecoes or bend them for more gripping
force.
Live with it is a possible solution, but I am a crazy dentist who is
obscessed...it is likely to wake me up at weird times in the night when
I should be sleeping.
Thanks guys.
JOhn
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: rv10@sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:24:44 -0800
John,
Most of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I had to
move them maybe =BC inch in either direction to get the holes lined up
at the J-channel (the one just forward of or just aft). I would bet
your combination of ribs and bottom skins had just enough variance that
riveting per plans or the way you did it would have caused the same
result.
I don=92t have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses but
here are a couple anyway=85
1) Call Van=92s and talk to them
2) Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and skins???
(ask Van=92s).
3) Figure a way to =93shrink=94 the excess skin. Add a
jchannel or some similar support??? (ask Van=92s).
4) How severe is the oil canning? Possibly live with it?
I would definitely get some oops rivets and drill the holes that are
the worst offenders to #30.
-Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Ben and Jim,
I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far as
the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2
that have canning.
Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few days
ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the rework
of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay aft
of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then again
oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel.
Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at
that seam and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able
to get in it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole
should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when
working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole
rivetted in in series it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc
and then it means the gap at the LE will be too tight or non
existent?????
Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded causing
them to bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I still
think this is my problem as on the second wing I am trying every
combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been
rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite
what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the
skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than the
other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing
inward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the
neighbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same
direction instead of the opposite.
There could be something unique to the way my wing is before doing
the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole process
seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am finding.
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating
part of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it
lines up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to
get it right.
Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and
now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding
rivets, I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J
channel, the clecoes did't hold too well.
Good Grief Charlie Brown.
All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no
oil canning in any of the bays.
I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
John G.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: rv10@sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one.
Your first post you said this:
=93I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft
portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as
I was worried that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin
from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the
forward(L.E.) skin.=94
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up
one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you
should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There should be
a small gap (1/32=94 at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank
skins and the CLECO=92d bottom skin. This gap just about completely
closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work upward one hole
at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the next just complete
one rib at a time. This helps push any excess out towards the ends. If
the skin edges are pressed together tightly you did not remove enough
material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10
minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of
material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from
stamping out the skins). It really didn=92t take that long. Attached
is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and the
gas tank. The space is less than a 64th I would say pretty much all the
way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don=92t know what to tell you.
-Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
PILOTDDS@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing
skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting
or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with
unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear about others
succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD 175hours
711 KT reserved
http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?R
V10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
p://forums.matronics.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | oil canning revisited |
Very good question and you are the first to ask, and it would/could make a
difference.
The wings however, are in a craddle, braced at the main spar at the root an
d supported at the leading edge at the end of the wing.
I have tried lifting the outside of the wing by lifting at the main spar an
d it did not make any difference in the skin.
Thought about hanging it from the flap and aileron brackets, but that's get
ting too crazy.
I call it oil canning because it is loose skin that is in the center of the
bay and when you push on it it depresses inward and then flexes back out w
hen released.
Like a pillow.
JOhn
From: ninepapa@bendbroadband.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: RV1
0-List: oil canning revisitedDate: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:51:06 -0800
John
One additional question, are your wings laying upside down on the work benc
h while riveting?
Or are they trailing edge up in the wing cradle?
Could make a difference in the oil canning.
John H.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Thanks Ben, All great suggestions. Definetly want to stay away from #30 riv
ets on the skins..too much force used to pound those. The holes aren't that
large!!! Maybe need to buy new clecoes or bend them for more gripping forc
e. Live with it is a possible solution, but I am a crazy dentist who is obs
cessed...it is likely to wake me up at weird times in the night when I shou
ld be sleeping. Thanks guys. JOhn
From: rv10@sinkrate.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: o
il canning revisitedDate: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:24:44 -0800
John,
Most of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I had to move them
maybe =BC inch in either direction to get the holes lined up at the J-chann
el (the one just forward of or just aft). I would bet your combination of
ribs and bottom skins had just enough variance that riveting per plans or t
he way you did it would have caused the same result.
I don=92t have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses but here are a
couple anyway=85
1) Call Van=92s and talk to them
2) Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and skins??? (ask Va
n=92s).
3) Figure a way to =93shrink=94 the excess skin. Add a jchannel or s
ome similar support??? (ask Van=92s).
4) How severe is the oil canning? Possibly live with it?
I would definitely get some oops rivets and drill the holes that are the wo
rst offenders to #30.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of John GonzalezSent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:1
6 PMTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisite
d
Ben and Jim, I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as fa
r as the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 t
hat have canning. Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested
a few days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on th
e rework of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay
aft of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then agai
n oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel. Int
erestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at that se
am and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able to get in
it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole should not b
e clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when working forward?
???? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series
it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap a
t the LE will be too tight or non existent????? Ben, do you remember whethe
r your ribs were spring loaded causing them to bow in a direction opposite
their flange direction. I still think this is my problem as on the second w
ing I am trying every combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the
ribs have been rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a dru
m. Despite what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes
, the skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than t
he other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing in
ward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the neig
hbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction
instead of the opposite. There could be something unique to the way my wing
is before doing the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the wh
ole process seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am find
ing. Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating p
art of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it lin
es up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to get it
right. Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and
now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets,
I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel, t
he clecoes did't hold too well. Good Grief Charlie Brown. All I want from S
anta is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil canning in any of th
e bays. I promise I have been a good boy!!!! John G.
From: rv10@sinkrate.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: o
il canning revisitedDate: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one. Your
first post you said this:
=93I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft portions
of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as I was worri
ed that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat
on the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin
.=94
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up one rivet
at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you should be abl
e to cleco everything in its final place. There should be a small gap (1/3
2=94 at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the CLECO
=92d bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes up when you rivet
your way up a rib (If you work upward one hole at a time). I would not bou
nce from one rib to the next just complete one rib at a time. This helps p
ush any excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed togethe
r tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10 minutes on e
ach bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of material from the
skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from stamping out the skins).
It really didn=92t take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap after
riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank. The space is less than
a 64th I would say pretty much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don=92t know what to tell you.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of PILOTDDS@aol.comSent: Saturday, December 22, 200
7 3:18 PMTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RV10-List: oil canning revisit
ed
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin oil
canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I need
to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I
reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD
175hours
711 KT reserved http://www.matronics.com
/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matr
onics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
p://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: oil canning revisited |
Just as a data point, I laid mine flat on a bench when I did them.
Now, on to "oil canning". It isn't oil-canning if the skin is just
flexible. Oil canning would be when it pops in, and pops out, and
makes the popping nose like when you squeeze the bottom of an oil
can. There's so much stress forcing it one way or the other that
there's no neutral. It makes that popping noise, and it will either
be concave, or convex, but it doesn't want to lay flat. If this
doesn't describe your situation, then I'm thinking perhaps you're
making a mountain out of a molehill and might want to just keep
moving on....or better yet, grab a nearby tech counselor and ask
for a learning experience. The skin on the bottom of the wings
will not be as stiff and taught as a fiberglass wing that you
might be used to. I've flown planes that you could watch the aluminum
on the top or bottom (if it's a high-wing), wiggle a bit in
turbulence, and this is just the way it is. So, before you
stress yourself to death and keep drilling and re-pounding rivets,
it sounds like you may want to get a diagnosis by someone who
can see first-hand the symptom. If it's truly oil-canning, then
you'll want to deal with it. If it's not, it may be perfectly
acceptable/normal/average.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
> Very good question and you are the first to ask, and it would/could make
> a difference.
>
> The wings however, are in a craddle, braced at the main spar at the root
> and supported at the leading edge at the end of the wing.
> I have tried lifting the outside of the wing by lifting at the main spar
> and it did not make any difference in the skin.
>
> Thought about hanging it from the flap and aileron brackets, but that's
> getting too crazy.
>
> I call it oil canning because it is loose skin that is in the center of
> the bay and when you push on it it depresses inward and then flexes back
> out when released.
> Like a pillow.
>
> JOhn
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: ninepapa@bendbroadband.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:51:06 -0800
>
> John
>
> One additional question, are your wings laying upside down on the
> work bench while riveting?
> Or are they trailing edge up in the wing cradle?
> Could make a difference in the oil canning.
>
> John H.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* John Gonzalez <mailto:indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2007 7:49 AM
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
>
> Thanks Ben,
>
> All great suggestions. Definetly want to stay away from #30
> rivets on the skins..too much force used to pound those. The
> holes aren't that large!!! Maybe need to buy new clecoes or bend
> them for more gripping force.
>
> Live with it is a possible solution, but I am a crazy dentist
> who is obscessed...it is likely to wake me up at weird times in
> the night when I should be sleeping.
>
> Thanks guys.
>
> JOhn
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: rv10@sinkrate.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:24:44 -0800
>
> John,
>
>
>
> Most of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I
> had to move them maybe inch in either direction to get the
> holes lined up at the J-channel (the one just forward of or
> just aft). I would bet your combination of ribs and bottom
> skins had just enough variance that riveting per plans or
> the way you did it would have caused the same result.
>
>
>
> I dont have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses
> but here are a couple anyway
>
>
>
> 1) Call Vans and talk to them
>
> 2) Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and
> skins??? (ask Vans).
>
> 3) Figure a way to shrink the excess skin. Add a
> jchannel or some similar support??? (ask Vans).
>
> 4) How severe is the oil canning? Possibly live with it?
>
>
>
> I would definitely get some oops rivets and drill the holes
> that are the worst offenders to #30.
>
>
>
> -Ben
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *John Gonzalez
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
>
>
>
> Ben and Jim,
>
> I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as
> far as the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin
> bays. I have 2 1/2 that have canning.
>
> Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a
> few days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or
> almost 1/16 on the rework of the first wing. The result was
> still the oil canning in the bay aft of the spar, just
> outside of the outer most access panel and then again oil
> canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access
> panel. Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material
> as I could have at that seam and the seam closed up so
> tight a hair would not even be able to get in it. The
> dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole
> should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every other
> hole when working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is
> clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series it wraps the
> skin on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap
> at the LE will be too tight or non existent?????
>
> Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded
> causing them to bow in a direction opposite their flange
> direction. I still think this is my problem as on the second
> wing I am trying every combination with the clecoes. The aft
> portion of the ribs have been rivetted (completing step
> 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite what order I do
> the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the skin
> in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser
> than the other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to
> is the ribs bowing inward on these two bays. The ribs are
> bowing toward one another and the neighbor next to it is
> attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction
> instead of the opposite.
>
> There could be something unique to the way my wing is before
> doing the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes
> the whole process seem like a no brainer, but that is
> anything but what I am finding.
>
> Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most
> frustrating part of the build which I have found. I
> conquered my baggage door and it lines up flush with the
> fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to get it right.
>
> Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the
> problem and now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged
> from the expanding rivets, I know so because when I re-did
> the first wing forward of the J channel, the clecoes did't
> hold too well.
>
> Good Grief Charlie Brown.
>
> All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins
> with no oil canning in any of the bays.
>
> I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
>
> John G.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: rv10@sinkrate.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
>
> John,
>
>
>
> I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your
> first one. Your first post you said this:
>
>
>
> |*I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and
> the aft portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin
> at the main spar, as I was worried that if I kept working
> forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat on the
> spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the
> forward(L.E.) skin.*|
>
>
>
> I think this was your issue. You really want to work your
> way up one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft
> half of the ribs you should be able to cleco everything in
> its final place. There should be a small gap (1/32 at the
> most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the
> CLECOd bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes
> up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work upward one
> hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the
> next just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any
> excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed
> together tightly you did not remove enough material and risk
> oil canning.
>
>
>
> Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to
> 10 minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the
> slightest bit of material from the skin edge (mostly just
> the machining marks from stamping out the skins). It really
> didnt take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap
> after riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank.
> The space is less than a 64^th I would say pretty much all
> the way down the entire wing.
>
>
>
> Is it correctable now??? I dont know what to tell you.
>
>
>
> -Ben
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *PILOTDDS@aol.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: oil canning revisited
>
>
>
> Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom
> wing skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin
> and reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have
> two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread
> and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD
> 175hours
>
> 711 KT reserved
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: A Moment of Silence for our First Family |
Its unfortunate that tragedy would strike at a time when familys usually get together
to rejoice in the holidays and each other.
Randy is one of the quiet pioneers. He assembled his "long" build RV-10 at amazing
speed. I met him at SnF 2005 and talked to him before and after his first
flight. He gave me many tips as I was keen to prepare for my first flight. His
feedback on the elevator trim sensitivity was very useful and eventually caused
me to design a speed sensitive trim.
Sara and I wish the family our best during their difficult times.
Bill DeRouchey
N939We wish the family our
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
Everyone here in the Pacific NW RV-10 builder group has been great at showing
their respect for Randy and Cheryl DeBauws privacy in their time of family
tragedy.
Tomorrow will be the Private Service for Kimberly Lynn Osbrink (DeBauw), their
daughter, who died tragically early Monday morning, December 17th, 2007. The
service will be on Sunday, December 23rd, 2PM at Saint Luke Lutheran Church,
6835 SW 46th Avenue, Portland, Oregon. Donations have been gathered by the members
of EAA Chapter 105 for a floral wreath and card.
Those of you who are new to the RV-10 community might reflect on the fact that
Randy and Cheryl completed the very first, plans built RV-10 and flew it on
May 20th, 2005 N610RV. Randy (#40006) and his build partner John Hilger of Bend,
Oregon (#40359) finished without delay by following VANS written directions
to the letter. The DeBauw build became the backbone for Tim Olsons (#40170)
amazing MYRV10.COM website and our group migration from Yahoo over to Matronics
that year.
Randy and Cheryls daughter Kim is also survived by her husband, Ryan, a decorated
U.S. Marine from the Iraq War ( and Bronze Star recipient), her sister Jennifer
Debauw, grandfathers George Blinco and Jim DeBauw along with Kims beloved
Bulldog Gus. Kim had served as the Manager at Healthy Pets in West Linn,
Oregon. The family has directed further contributions and remembrances be sent
to the Cascade BullDog Rescue/Rehome in Buckley, Washington.
<<Kimberly Debauw.jpg>>
Kimberly Lynn (23 years young) July 16th, 1984 to December
17th, 2007
Our prayers continue for the DeBauw family and her husband, Ryan along with the
entire Osbrink family.
John Cox (#40600)
<<RandysPlane.jpg>>
Do Not Archive
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | oil canning revisited |
It's oil canning, but it doesn't make too loud a popping noise, but I don't
like it anyway.
Thanks all for the help and all have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:57:18 -0600> From: Tim@MyRV10.com> To: rv10-lis
t@matronics.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: oil canning revisited> > --> RV10-
List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>> > Just as a data point,
I laid mine flat on a bench when I did them.> > Now, on to "oil canning".
It isn't oil-canning if the skin is just> flexible. Oil canning would be wh
en it pops in, and pops out, and> makes the popping nose like when you sque
eze the bottom of an oil> can. There's so much stress forcing it one way or
the other that> there's no neutral. It makes that popping noise, and it wi
ll either> be concave, or convex, but it doesn't want to lay flat. If this>
doesn't describe your situation, then I'm thinking perhaps you're> making
a mountain out of a molehill and might want to just keep> moving on....or b
etter yet, grab a nearby tech counselor and ask> for a learning experience.
The skin on the bottom of the wings> will not be as stiff and taught as a
fiberglass wing that you> might be used to. I've flown planes that you coul
d watch the aluminum> on the top or bottom (if it's a high-wing), wiggle a
bit in> turbulence, and this is just the way it is. So, before you> stress
yourself to death and keep drilling and re-pounding rivets,> it sounds like
you may want to get a diagnosis by someone who> can see first-hand the sym
ptom. If it's truly oil-canning, then> you'll want to deal with it. If it's
not, it may be perfectly> acceptable/normal/average.> > Tim Olson - RV-10
N104CD - Flying> do not archive> > > John Gonzalez wrote:> > Very good ques
tion and you are the first to ask, and it would/could make > > a difference
.> > > > The wings however, are in a craddle, braced at the main spar at th
e root > > and supported at the leading edge at the end of the wing.> > I h
ave tried lifting the outside of the wing by lifting at the main spar > > a
nd it did not make any difference in the skin. > > > > Thought about hangin
g it from the flap and aileron brackets, but that's > > getting too crazy.>
> > > I call it oil canning because it is loose skin that is in the center
of > > the bay and when you push on it it depresses inward and then flexes
back > > out when released.> > Like a pillow.> > > > JOhn> > > > ---------
---------------------------------------------------------------> > From: ni
nepapa@bendbroadband.com> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: RV1
0-List: oil canning revisited> > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:51:06 -0800> > >
> John> > > > One additional question, are your wings laying upside down o
n the> > work bench while riveting?> > Or are they trailing edge up in the
wing cradle?> > Could make a difference in the oil canning.> > > > John H.>
> > > ----- Original Message -----> > *From:* John Gonzalez <mailto:indigo
onlatigo@msn.com>> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matron
ics.com>> > *Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2007 7:49 AM> > *Subject:* RE: RV1
0-List: oil canning revisited> > > > Thanks Ben,> > > > All great suggestio
ns. Definetly want to stay away from #30> > rivets on the skins..too much f
orce used to pound those. The> > holes aren't that large!!! Maybe need to b
uy new clecoes or bend> > them for more gripping force.> > > > Live with it
is a possible solution, but I am a crazy dentist> > who is obscessed...it
is likely to wake me up at weird times in> > the night when I should be sle
eping.> > > > Thanks guys.> > > > JOhn> > > > > > -------------------------
-----------------------------------------------> > From: rv10@sinkrate.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> > Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revis
ited> > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:24:44 -0800> > > > John,> > > > > > > > M
ost of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I> > had to move them
maybe =BC inch in either direction to get the> > holes lined up at the J-c
hannel (the one just forward of or> > just aft). I would bet your combinati
on of ribs and bottom> > skins had just enough variance that riveting per p
lans or> > the way you did it would have caused the same result.> > > > > >
> > I don=92t have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses> > but he
re are a couple anyway=85> > > > > > > > 1) Call Van=92s and talk to them>
> > > 2) Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and> > skins??? (ask
Van=92s).> > > > 3) Figure a way to =93shrink=94 the excess skin. Add a> >
jchannel or some similar support??? (ask Van=92s).> > > > 4) How severe is
the oil canning? Possibly live with it?> > > > > > > > I would definitely
get some oops rivets and drill the holes> > that are the worst offenders to
#30. > > > > > > > > -Ben> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
---------------------------------------> > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-serv
er@matronics.com> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behal
f Of> > *John Gonzalez> > *Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM> > *To:
* rv10-list@matronics.com> > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisite
d> > > > > > > > Ben and Jim,> > > > I would really like to get an idea of
what is acceptable as> > far as the oil canning is concerned in these botto
m skin> > bays. I have 2 1/2 that have canning.> > > > Ben, I removed the m
aterial at the edge as you suggested a> > few days ago, but i may have remo
ved as much as 1/32 or> > almost 1/16 on the rework of the first wing. The
result was> > still the oil canning in the bay aft of the spar, just> > out
side of the outer most access panel and then again oil> > canning on the se
cond bay inboard of the outer most access> > panel. Interestingly, I believ
e I removed as much material> > as I could have at that seam and the seam c
losed up so> > tight a hair would not even be able to get in it. The> > dim
pled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole> > should not be clecoe
d and the riveting should be every other> > hole when working forward?????
Perhaps if every hole is> > clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series it
wraps the> > skin on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap>
> at the LE will be too tight or non existent?????> > > > Ben, do you reme
mber whether your ribs were spring loaded> > causing them to bow in a direc
tion opposite their flange> > direction. I still think this is my problem a
s on the second> > wing I am trying every combination with the clecoes. The
aft> > portion of the ribs have been rivetted (completing step> > 11)and t
he bays are tight as a drum. Despite what order I do> > the forward portion
of the ribs with the clecoes, the skin> > in the same bays as on the other
wing still remain looser> > than the other bays. The only thing i can attr
ibute this to> > is the ribs bowing inward on these two bays. The ribs are>
> bowing toward one another and the neighbor next to it is> > attributing
to the mess by bowing in the same direction> > instead of the opposite.> >
> > There could be something unique to the way my wing is before> > doing t
he bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes> > the whole process see
m like a no brainer, but that is> > anything but what I am finding.> > > >
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most> > frustrating par
t of the build which I have found. I> > conquered my baggage door and it li
nes up flush with the> > fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to ge
t it right.> > > > Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the>
> problem and now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged> > from the
expanding rivets, I know so because when I re-did> > the first wing forward
of the J channel, the clecoes did't> > hold too well.> > > > Good Grief Ch
arlie Brown.> > > > All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings s
kins> > with no oil canning in any of the bays.> > > > I promise I have bee
n a good boy!!!!> > > > John G.> > > > ------------------------------------
------------------------------------> > > > From: rv10@sinkrate.com> > To:
rv10-list@matronics.com> > Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited> >
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800> > > > John,> > > > > > > > I re-rea
d many of the posts in the thread as well as your> > first one. Your first
post you said this:> > > > > > > > |*=93I will say that after I got the J c
hannel rivetted and> > the aft portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted t
he skin> > at the main spar, as I was worried that if I kept working> > for
ward I would prevent the skin from laying flat on the> > spar and it might
get hung up on the edge of the> > forward(L.E.) skin.=94*|> > > > > > > > I
think this was your issue. You really want to work your> > way up one rive
t at a time. After completion of the aft> > half of the ribs you should be
able to cleco everything in> > its final place. There should be a small gap
(1/32=94 at the> > most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and th
e> > CLECO=92d bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes> > up whe
n you rivet your way up a rib (If you work upward one> > hole at a time). I
would not bounce from one rib to the> > next just complete one rib at a ti
me. This helps push any> > excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges a
re pressed> > together tightly you did not remove enough material and risk>
> oil canning.> > > > > > > > Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I sp
ent about 5 to> > 10 minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the>
> slightest bit of material from the skin edge (mostly just> > the machinin
g marks from stamping out the skins). It really> > didn=92t take that long.
Attached is a picture of the gap> > after riveting between the bottom skin
and the gas tank.> > The space is less than a 64^th I would say pretty muc
h all> > the way down the entire wing.> > > > > > > > Is it correctable now
??? I don=92t know what to tell you.> > > > > > > > -Ben> > > > > > > > > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--> > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> > [mailto:owner-rv1
0-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of> > *PILOTDDS@aol.com> > *Sent:*
Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com> > *Su
bject:* RV10-List: oil canning revisited> > > > > > > > Was anybody succesf
ul at improving or eliminating the bottom> > wing skin oil canning by simpl
y shaving the edge of the skin> > and reriveting or do I need to replace th
e whole skin.I have> > two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the
thread> > and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD> > 175
hours > > > > 711 KT reserved> > > > * *> > > > * *> > > > * *> > > > **> >
> > **> > > > **> > > > **> > > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*>
> > > **> > > > **> > > > **> > > > **> > > > **> > > > *http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*> > > > **> > > > *http://forums.matronics.com*
> > > > * *> > > > *> > > > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution> >
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> > p://forums.mat
ronics.com> > > > *> > > > *> > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigato
r?RV10-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://f
orums.matronics.com> > > > *> > > > *> > > > blank>http://www.matronics.com
/contribution> > get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
========================> _
====================> > >
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: oil canning revisited |
John
If you can, you might try setting the wing on two saw horses, bottom
side down like glider people do sometimes.
See how it acts when you push on the bottom skin.
John H.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Very good question and you are the first to ask, and it would/could
make a difference.
The wings however, are in a craddle, braced at the main spar at the
root and supported at the leading edge at the end of the wing.
I have tried lifting the outside of the wing by lifting at the main
spar and it did not make any difference in the skin.
Thought about hanging it from the flap and aileron brackets, but
that's getting too crazy.
I call it oil canning because it is loose skin that is in the center
of the bay and when you push on it it depresses inward and then flexes
back out when released.
Like a pillow.
JOhn
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: ninepapa@bendbroadband.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:51:06 -0800
John
One additional question, are your wings laying upside down on the
work bench while riveting?
Or are they trailing edge up in the wing cradle?
Could make a difference in the oil canning.
John H.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Thanks Ben,
All great suggestions. Definetly want to stay away from #30 rivets
on the skins..too much force used to pound those. The holes aren't that
large!!! Maybe need to buy new clecoes or bend them for more gripping
force.
Live with it is a possible solution, but I am a crazy dentist who
is obscessed...it is likely to wake me up at weird times in the night
when I should be sleeping.
Thanks guys.
JOhn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rv10@sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:24:44 -0800
John,
Most of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I had to
move them maybe =BC inch in either direction to get the holes lined up
at the J-channel (the one just forward of or just aft). I would bet
your combination of ribs and bottom skins had just enough variance that
riveting per plans or the way you did it would have caused the same
result.
I don=92t have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses but
here are a couple anyway=85
1) Call Van=92s and talk to them
2) Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and
skins??? (ask Van=92s).
3) Figure a way to =93shrink=94 the excess skin. Add a
jchannel or some similar support??? (ask Van=92s).
4) How severe is the oil canning? Possibly live with it?
I would definitely get some oops rivets and drill the holes that
are the worst offenders to #30.
-Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Ben and Jim,
I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far
as the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2
that have canning.
Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few
days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the
rework of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the
bay aft of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and
then again oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most
access panel. Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I
could have at that seam and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not
even be able to get in it. The dimpled holes started to not line up.
Maybe every hole should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every
other hole when working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed
and every hole rivetted in in series it wraps the skin on too tight of a
smaller arc and then it means the gap at the LE will be too tight or non
existent?????
Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded
causing them to bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I
still think this is my problem as on the second wing I am trying every
combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been
rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite
what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the
skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than the
other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing
inward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the
neighbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same
direction instead of the opposite.
There could be something unique to the way my wing is before
doing the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole
process seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am
finding.
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most
frustrating part of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage
door and it lines up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of
carrying on to get it right.
Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem
and now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding
rivets, I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J
channel, the clecoes did't hold too well.
Good Grief Charlie Brown.
All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with
no oil canning in any of the bays.
I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
John G.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rv10@sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first
one. Your first post you said this:
=93I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the
aft portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main
spar, as I was worried that if I kept working forward I would prevent
the skin from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung up on the
edge of the forward(L.E.) skin.=94
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way
up one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs
you should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There should
be a small gap (1/32=94 at the most) between the leading edge or gas
tank skins and the CLECO=92d bottom skin. This gap just about
completely closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work
upward one hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the next
just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any excess out towards
the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together tightly you did not
remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10
minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of
material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from
stamping out the skins). It really didn=92t take that long. Attached
is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and the
gas tank. The space is less than a 64th I would say pretty much all the
way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don=92t know what to tell you.
-Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
PILOTDDS@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom
wing skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and
reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with
unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear about others
succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD 175hours
711 KT reserved
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| Subject: | Happy Holidays to the whole family |
It's been a pretty good year this year getting to meet more
new RV-10 builders and see many of the old ones start to fly.
Thanks for being part of a great group, always willing to help
out the other builders as they go. They won't forget the help
you gave them in your build, and if they pass the knowledge
along then some day they can be helpful to someone else.
I'll be less "connected" over the next week. We decided that
this year we needed to get out in the snow a bit more, and
thus we're doing something completely new.....driving a car.
Yes, I can't remember in all my kids 6 and 8 years, ever having
them sit in a car longer than 4.5 hours...yet they've done 14
hour days in the airplane. We're going to hit I-80 for some
17 to 19 hours, and head out to SLC and meet up with Scott
Schmidt and family for some skiing at Alta and a couple other
places. It should be a great lesson for the kids that will keep
them from complaining when we have to go on a long x/c flight.
For the next couple days we'll just be doing what I hope you
all will be doing...enjoying the company of your family
for the seasonal activities.
Thanks again to all of you, and here's wishing many great
new 1st flights in 2008!
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
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