Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:48 AM - Re: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump (Russell Daves)
2. 04:24 AM - Re: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump (darnpilot@aol.com)
3. 07:08 AM - Trimming the cowling (Rick Sked)
4. 07:46 AM - Re: Trimming the cowling (Michael Wellenzohn)
5. 09:25 AM - Re: LED lights (johngoodman)
6. 09:51 AM - Costs of Flying in Europe (Jon Reining)
7. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: LED lights (Gerry Filby)
8. 11:58 AM - Re: Costs of Flying in Europe (Michael Wellenzohn)
9. 01:14 PM - Alternator Circuit Breaker (orchidman)
10. 01:50 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
11. 02:45 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (David McNeill)
12. 02:46 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Jesse Saint)
13. 03:24 PM - Any Hawaii Builders?? (James, Peter [SD])
14. 03:39 PM - TruTrak ADI (FLAGSTONE)
15. 03:39 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Carl Froehlich)
16. 03:45 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
17. 04:05 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (orchidman)
18. 04:14 PM - Re: TruTrak ADI (William Curtis)
19. 04:38 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
20. 04:47 PM - Re: Trimming the cowling (jim berry)
21. 04:47 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (PJ Seipel)
22. 04:51 PM - Re: TruTrak ADI (Tim Olson)
23. 04:52 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Kelly McMullen)
24. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
25. 05:50 PM - Re: TruTrak ADI (Jesse Saint)
26. 05:53 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Carl Froehlich)
27. 06:22 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (orchidman)
28. 06:38 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
29. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
30. 07:21 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Jesse Saint)
31. 07:57 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
32. 08:19 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
33. 08:50 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Patrick Pulis)
34. 11:10 PM - Re: Costs of Flying in Europe (Werner Schneider)
35. 11:41 PM - Re: TruTrak ADI (sam@fr8dog.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump |
From: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
For those of you already flying with a Lycoming -540 engine...
Is the RV-10 electrically driven fuel pump???
1) A "boost pump" (i.e. run only for engine prime prior to start
and then turned
off for flight)?
On prior to start, then off. On for takeoff and landing.
2) Run only during flight to serve as a backup to engine driven
fuel pump?
See above - On immediately if you encounter engine problems.
3) Run primarily at take off and landing time to serve as a backup
to the engine
driven fuel pump?
See above.
4) If both fuel pumps are run at the same time, could that cause
engine flooding
problems? (this would seem unlikely)
Hasn't happened to me and don't see how it could. I often leave mine on
from prior to start, through taxi, take off and have on a few occasions
forget to turn it off for more than a few minutes into the flight.
I believe the Cessnas I've flown exhibited #1 while Pipers I've
flown exhibited
#2/3. What about the RV-10?
See Above
Russ Daves - N710RV - 190+ hours
Regards,
Jay
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump |
All the replies are right on.=C2- One other consideration:=C2-depending
upon your installation (engine/fuel/FWF/ambient temps), after you get fully
warmed up, you might need to run the pump to prevent vapor lock/engine stumb
ling, i.e., you just landed and its 90 degrees out, you might get the fuel o
verheated and some vapor...a burst of the fuel pump will alleviate the probl
em.
FWIW
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Doerr, Ray R [NTK] <Ray.R.Doerr@sprint.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 2:06 pm
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- I run the
electric pump in the tunnel for initial starting and then during take off a
nd landing at that critical part of flight where you would not want your eng
ine driven pump to fail.
=C2-
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250 N519RV =93 350 hours.
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Brinkmeyer
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
=C2-
For those of you already flying with a Lycoming -540 engine...
Is the RV-10 electrically driven fuel pump???
1) A "boost pump" (i.e. run only for engine prime prior to start and then tu
rned off for flight)?
2) Run only during flight to serve as a backup to engine driven fuel pump?
3) Run primarily at take off and landing time to serve as a backup to the en
gine driven fuel pump?
4) If both fuel pumps are run at the same time, could that cause engine floo
ding problems? (this would seem unlikely)
I believe the Cessnas I've flown exhibited #1 while Pipers I've flown exhibi
ted #2/3. What about the RV-10?
Regards,
Jay
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2-
-========================
==============
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2-
-========================
==============
________________________________________________________________________
aol.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Trimming the cowling |
For the last three days I have been staring at the first few steps of fitting the
cowling...The plans indicate not to trim the sides but the sides interfere
with getting to fit the nose ring. Any tips on the first few steps of the cowl?
By using the straight edge method it looks like about an 1/8 or little more
needs to come off the inner intake on the top cowl. The bottom doesn't sem to
need any trimmig on the outer portion of the intakes. Comments on how those who
have completed have done this? The masking tape method really looks like a great
way to fit the aft part of the cowl...I just can't get a picture of how Vans
wants you to do the first few steps.
Rick S.
40185
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming the cowling |
Rick,
since I just did this step here are my lessons learned.
1.) I had to cut a bit off the outer air intake to get the parts together. However
do not cut along to the sides too much. I did that but I guess this will be
no problem.
2) I put the two halves together and drilled & clecoed them as per plans.
3) For the further steps I followed the plans.
I am not done yet but I was irritated because the to halves didn't fit at the beginning
and it looked so easy on the plans.
I will try to update my web site www.wellenzohn.net with some pictures tonight.
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (engine, prop, finishing)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161561#161561
Message 5
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OK, I'll try to attach some photos. As far as I'm concerned this lights are perfect
for me. $620 plus $9 shipping. Everything in package including wiring connections,
etc. The power supply is called the Driver and it fits on the Van's
optional Strobe/ELT mount although the nutplates are for a smaller unit. I'll
just modify the mount to fit.
John
--------
#40572 QB Wings, QB Fuse arrived
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161568#161568
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starboardwinggrn1_733.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starboardwinggrn_129.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/portwingred_243.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/whitetail1_170.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/whitetail_100.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/thepackage_106.jpg
Message 6
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| Subject: | Costs of Flying in Europe |
Michael and others,
My wife and I are considering a job in Munich and Im wondering about the costs
of flying in Europe. Last year we were all abuzz with the possibility of user
fees and a system similar to that in Europe. Many articles said it was expensive,
but how much? I'm sure they were trying to use the worst case scenario
to get us to oppose user fees (don't worry, I oppose) but what is the reality?
I went online and looked up a couple of aeroclubs in Munich with their own strips
one close to downtown the other further out.
Say you just want to go out for:
A couple of touch and gos
Take up a couple friends for a sight seeing flight around town
Fly about 45 minutes to your favorite lunch spot
Fly from Munich to Rome to visit the in-laws
Roughly how much would each of these scenarios cost if flown VFR only? Can you
fly VFR only? Does it make sense to ship over the Citabria? I'm guessing it
would have to go though a German registration process - how onerous is that?
(My guess is sell the Citabria and buy something else already registered in Germany
once there.)
Thanks for any help!
Jon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161582#161582
Message 7
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If its the same tail unit I bought - note that you'll have to do a little
work to get it to fit in fairing hole - I think its a little bigger diameter
than the standard unit from Whelen.
g
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:19 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: LED lights
--> <johngoodman@earthlink.net>
OK, I'll try to attach some photos. As far as I'm concerned this lights are
perfect for me. $620 plus $9 shipping. Everything in package including
wiring connections, etc. The power supply is called the Driver and it fits
on the Van's optional Strobe/ELT mount although the nutplates are for a
smaller unit. I'll just modify the mount to fit.
John
--------
#40572 QB Wings, QB Fuse arrived
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161568#161568
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starboardwinggrn1_733.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starboardwinggrn_129.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/portwingred_243.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/whitetail1_170.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/whitetail_100.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/thepackage_106.jpg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Costs of Flying in Europe |
Hi Jon,
good to hear from you. There are a couple things to consider. First of all Countries
in Europe have totally different prices when it comes to landing fees etc.
I general you can say that the fuel is definitely more expensive than in the
US.
In Landshut 1 Liter was in September '07 2.11 Euro per Liter that is about 8 $
a gallon.
A good comparison gives you the following link of charter prices. http://www.eddh.de/info/charter.html
As far as I remember from Oshkosh you speak German, else I can still translate
:-)
Landing fees are between 5-20 Euros and it depends sometimes if you are local pilot
or club member.
But flying from Munich gives you beautiful opportunities to fly to the Alps and
visit my home country Austria or help me sanding all the composite stuff in Switzerland
:-)
Near Munich in Tannheim is also Tannkosh Europe biggest Flyin (guess where they
took the name from) once a year. Drop me a line if you want more info.
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (engine, prop, finishing)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161640#161640
Message 9
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and circuit breakers
for the alternator output protection.
I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A CB.
Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to keep the
wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument panel.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
I decided on mine to forego the Circuit Breaker and do the fuse thing.
The reason is a few fold...
First, I did indeed buy a breaker at one point, but it's a pretty
fat wire you put on a 60-70A breaker, and that fat wire was stiff, and
I heard something plastic internal to the breaker crack. This did
not leave me feeling very good. I decided that unless you're
going to have a solid way to mount a breaker, and hold the wire
totally imobile and prevent cracking, it would not be a good idea to
use that breaker. Also, it isn't that easy to find a good breaker
of that size, and at a good cost.
Then, you also have the big fat wire coming up to your panel or
subpanel, further into the cabin that it needs to be. On mine,
I did mount it inside the firewall, but on the firewall, but
there is no reason that I needed to put it there. It could have
just as easily gone in the engine compartment. I like where it
is, and it's worked out well though.
Also, on my plane, I draw in the low 40's for amps at full draw
with everything lit up and turned on, including pitot heat. If my
60A breaker blows, I really don't think it would be a good idea for
me to re-set it in flight. So, you may as well use a fuse, at that
point. I work on lots of electronic things, and I don't mind
tinkering, but in the air is probably not the place. I do carry
a spare fuse though, in my kit.
If you're really leaning towards a CB, then you may as well skip
the idea of putting it under the cowl. If you're willing to
go under the cowl to deal with it, you shouldn't have any
objection to staying simple and cheap and going with a fuse.
As far as design goes, I was happy with my ANL fuse, because not
only was it simple to mount and hook up, but it included a nice
clear plastic case and cover. So it's easy to see if it blows.
Of course, I haven't had the opportunity to see it blown yet.
Now, one other reason I don't care about re-setting a breaker
is because with a good backup battery system, I'd rather treat
the real unusual case of a blow B-lead breaker to be somewhat
of an emergency....and use the hour or more of battery that I
have left to get on the ground. If that thing blows, I've got
some problems somewhere, and being on the ground is a good
plan anyway until I can figure out what caused it.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
orchidman wrote:
>
> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection. I am leaning
> to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A CB.
> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash
> to keep the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the
> instrument panel.
>
> -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 Fuselage SB (N410GB
> reserved)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
two 30 or 35s in parallel with a short copper bus bar between them. Easy
attach of the fat wire.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:08 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A
CB.
Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to keep
the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument
panel.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
I always put in a circuit breaker and I put it in a location that it
can be seen if it pops, which would mean on the panel or nearby.
Since you will likely have 8AWG wire going to and from it, it is
important to think about routing as you plan where to put it. That
size wire doesn't bent too easily, so there needs to be a little
clearance from other items in the direction that the wire leaves the
breaker. I as I have heard others argue in the past, when a cb pops,
it is often unlikely that just pushing it back in will solve the
problem, which is an argument for using fuses, but it is also nice to
have that visual alert that something has happened rather than just
see your voltage drop or your alternator failure light come on.
Just my $.02, which is probably worth less than 50% of that.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jan 31, 2008, at 4:08 PM, orchidman wrote:
>
> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses
> and circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place
> the 60A CB.
> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash
> to keep the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on
> the instrument panel.
>
> --------
> Gary Blankenbiller
> RV10 - # 40674
> Fuselage SB
> (N410GB reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Any Hawaii Builders?? |
I will be in Hawaii in a couple of weeks and wondered if there were any RV-
10 builders that I could stop by and visit.... Any such luck?! I'd be gra
teful for an island tour in other model RV's as well! The wife and teenag
ers will be along.... So a formation flight would be pretty cool too!
Pete James
RV-10 - 90% Done - 90% to go!
It WILL fly later this year!
peter.james at sprint.com
Message 14
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Hi:
I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator) as a
back-up for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears it
operates quite a bit differently than a standard attitude indicator.
Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your thoughts
on how it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like flying it?? Do
you think it is worth it?? Etc??
Thanks
Mark
Message 15
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
alternator.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A
CB.
Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to keep
the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument
panel.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
Message 16
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Aircraft Spruce sells a 60-70 alternator circuit breaker (non pull-able) relatively
inexpensively and is the standard of certified OEM manufacturers. They are
also less expensive than an ANL and holder.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/6070amp.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/graphics/6070circuitbreak.jpg
For 60-70 AMPs the wire from the alternator only needs to be #8 AWG (or #6). An
#8AWG Tefzel wire is only 3/16" thick and easy to manage behind the panel attached
to the circuit breaker. Alternator to breaker, breaker to buss.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and circuit
breakers for the alternator output protection.
I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A CB.
Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to keep the
wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument panel.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> First, I did indeed buy a breaker at one point, but it's a pretty
> fat wire you put on a 60-70A breaker, and that fat wire was stiff, and
> I heard something plastic internal to the breaker crack. This did
> not leave me feeling very good. I decided that unless you're
> going to have a solid way to mount a breaker, and hold the wire
> totally mobile and prevent cracking, it would not be a good idea to
> use that breaker. Also, it isn't that easy to find a good breaker
> of that size, and at a good cost.
I have found a source for 60 & 70 amp CBs and yes they are very pricey but no fuseses
that big was one of the primary reasons I have been thinking of going the
CB route.
> Then, you also have the big fat wire coming up to your panel or
> subpanel, further into the cabin that it needs to be. On mine,
> I did mount it inside the firewall, but on the firewall, but
> there is no reason that I needed to put it there. It could have
> just as easily gone in the engine compartment. I like where it
> is, and it's worked out well though.
Passing 'big' wires through the firewall bothers me and the fewer possible makes
me feel better. That is why I am considering possibly in front of the firewall.
> Also, on my plane, I draw in the low 40's for amps at full draw
> with everything lit up and turned on, including pitot heat. If my
> 60A breaker blows, I really don't think it would be a good idea for
> me to re-set it in flight. So, you may as well use a fuse, at that
> point. I work on lots of electronic things, and I don't mind
> tinkering, but in the air is probably not the place. I do carry
> a spare fuse though, in my kit.
> ...
> As far as design goes, I was happy with my ANL fuse, because not
> only was it simple to mount and hook up, but it included a nice
> clear plastic case and cover. So it's easy to see if it blows.
> Of course, I haven't had the opportunity to see it blown yet.
Do you have a good source for that big an ANL fuse? I have checked all my normal
sources.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161686#161686
Message 18
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I have. I had it in another aircraft as a temporary replacement for a "real" AI
and it was definitely different. I never did get use to flying precisely by
it as opposed to a real AI before I removed it (real AI was back from overhaul)
but it has given me pause on using it in the RV-10. I think I will trade it
in on my True Trak autopilot purchase and get a real electrically powered AI.
Maybe it just required getting used to. While theoretically it offers the
same information as a Turn coordinator plus vertical speed, I can fly with the
turn coordinator much better than I can with the ADI. Over time maybe that would
change. Results inconclusive but definitely not a slam dunk replacement.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> Hi:
>
> I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator) as a back-up
for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears it operates quite a
bit differently than a standard attitude indicator.
>
> Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your thoughts on how
it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like flying it?? Do you think it
is worth it?? Etc??
>
> Thanks
>
> Mark
Message 19
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60 amps from
the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect the
output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter contactor thinking
they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit. You still need to
run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main buss. So unless you buss
is also forward of the firewall, you still have "heavy" wires coming into
the cabin.
Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and then a
separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for certified aircraft.
Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery side of the starter
contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or circuit breaker firewall
forward.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
alternator.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming the cowling |
Rick,
Like Michael I found it necessary to trim the inner and outer walls of the air
inlet to get the upper an lower portions to come together. I also trimmed about
2" along the side of the upper cowl. Once you have the upper and lower cowl
in position(let the sides of the lower cowl overlap the outside of the upper cowl)
you can decide where you want the side seams to be. Lay out your chosen line
on the upper cowl, cut and sand to a straight edge. Then you can use the masking
tape trick to transfer that line to the lower cowl. I failed to mention
in an earlier post that I also used the masking tape routine to fit my doors
to the cabin top. It is much easier than trimming a little at a time until it
comes together.
Don't worry if you take off a little too much at some point. It is easy to build
up an edge with a little flox if needed. Also I have seen several 10's where
the rivets that hold the piano hinge to the cowling(and/or the paint) have started
to crack out. I dealt with that by putting a 2 bid tape over the rivet lines.
Jim Berry
40482
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161697#161697
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Make sure you take a look at the data sheet for your breaker before you
decide to upsize the number of amps too much. For example, the 30 amp
Tyco breaker I'm using for my backup SD-20 alternator is rated such that
it may take up to 1 hour at 145% or 43 amps before it trips. At 200%,
i.e. 60 amps, it may still take up to 30 seconds to trip. If that
breaker trips, then my alternator is definitely overloaded and I'd sure
want to take a look at the problem before continuing on.
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
Carl Froehlich wrote:
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
> alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>
>
> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A
> CB.
> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to keep
> the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument
> panel.
>
> --------
> Gary Blankenbiller
> RV10 - # 40674
> Fuselage SB
> (N410GB reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>
>
>
Message 22
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I'm inclined to sit squarely on the fence about the ADI. It's not
a bad instrument, considering it gives you GPS track, and bank,
and first instantaneous pitch indication....transitioning to
more of a rate of climb. It also will warn you if your airspeed
slows near stall, so it has that for safety too.
So there is some good stuff there.
But, then there are the downsides.
1) If you DO get it with the internal GPS, then you have another
antenna to deal with. If you DO NOT, then it's really not going
to give you much for GPS track unless you have it hooked to
a GPS that will survive an electric-out situation in the panel
anyway....so you may not actually get to use that TRK indication
when you need it unless you're careful to hook it up the way
you need.
2) It lacks the skid ball, like the TruTrak Turn-n-bank has.
3) It costs much more than a Turn-N-Bank
4) While I can't argue that if you're climbing, you're not worried
about stalling your way to the ground, it really isn't true
attitude being displayed. The second you pitch up or down, it is,
but then it's a VSI. If you're looking for real attitude, then
that isn't going to give it to you. That said, it's still going
to give you tools to keep your butt alive, because if you're
not descending, you're not stalled out and headed for the ground,
either.
The thing is, for a strictly backup instrument, I found that since
my GNS480 was on my E-Bus, that I had TRK already, and you have
GPS altitude if you want. And of course you still have airspeed
to use as reference, and altimeter, so you know if you're
descending, or slowing in a stall. You just can't tell your
pitch attitude. But angle of the nose to the horizon isn't the
most important thing to know. Keeping the wings level is
super important though. So, considering how MUCH stuff you
have with a GPS+TNB+ASI+ALT, if you have all of those as
backups, the added value of some of the features the ADI has
gets to be less important. It's also a much longer instrument,
that I found just barely makes it from the front panel to the
subpanel. So from many perspectives, although I now own and
fly the ADI, I would have been just as happy with the TNB,
myself. If it had a skid ball, it would be a good improvement
too.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
William Curtis wrote:
> <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>
> I have. I had it in another aircraft as a temporary replacement for
> a "real" AI and it was definitely different. I never did get use to
> flying precisely by it as opposed to a real AI before I removed it
> (real AI was back from overhaul) but it has given me pause on using
> it in the RV-10. I think I will trade it in on my True Trak
> autopilot purchase and get a real electrically powered AI. Maybe it
> just required getting used to. While theoretically it offers the
> same information as a Turn coordinator plus vertical speed, I can fly
> with the turn coordinator much better than I can with the ADI. Over
> time maybe that would change. Results inconclusive but definitely
> not a slam dunk replacement.
>
> William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ "Be who you are and say what you
> feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't
> mind." -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>> Hi:
>>
>> I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator)
>> as a back-up for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears
>> it operates quite a bit differently than a standard attitude
>> indicator.
>>
>> Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your
>> thoughts on how it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like
>> flying it?? Do you think it is worth it?? Etc??
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Mark
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
How many REALLY need 60 amps for their panel?? Just rhetorical question. I
don't see any problem using a 50-55amp
CB on a 60 amp alternator. Alternators are normally sized so that they
aren't called upon to produce more than 85 percent of their nominal rating.
So using a 50 amp CB would ensure you don't exceed 85% by very much.
On Jan 31, 2008 5:40 PM, William Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10.com> wrote:
>
> If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60
> amps from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
>
> I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect
> the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter
> contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit.
> You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main
> buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you still have
> "heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
>
> Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and
> then a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for
> certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery
> side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
> circuit breaker firewall forward.
>
> William
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
> and those who matter don't mind."
> -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips.
> If
> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This
> kept
> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
> alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
> Passing 'big' wires through the firewall bothers me and the fewer possibl
e makes me feel better. That is why I am considering possibly in front of
the firewall.=0A=0AIn the RV-10 with a rear mounted battery, you have
to pass at least ONE "big" wire through the firewall. Well ---correction,
I don't have ANY "big" wires going throught my firewall. I only have an 8
AWG wire from the alternator going through my firewall. Not even the main
battery to starter contactor cable. I use a thru bulkhead connector show o
n the attached picture. On the firewall side is attached the starter conta
ctor as shown. On the cabin side is attached the main battery cable and th
e (smaller) battery cable to the buss.=0A=0A=0AWilliam=0Ahttp:/
/wcurtis.nerv10.com/=0A"Be who you are and say what you feel because tho
se who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."=0A-- Dr. Sues
s =0A=0A
Message 25
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The 3" version does have the ball. Just not enough room for it
according to TruTrak, I guess, on the 2" version.
We have used it alongside the Dynon for 430 hours in N256H. The only
time they didn't agree was when my dad picked up a little ice before
he had a heated pitot and lost attitude on the Dynon (which went
grayscale, fortunately, to let him know not to trust it), and when he
noticed that the ADI disagreed, he followed the ADI. It gets its
"attitude" stability from the pitot-static system, but if it loses
that it gets it from the internal GPS, which is a nice backup,
especially if you lose power and can't heat your pitot. He wasn't in
thick soup, but it would have saved his hide if he had been. By the
way, the next flight he had a heated pitot, if it helps those of you
on the fence in deciding whether or not to get one. He was in light
IFR and certainly didn't intend to get into icing, but it can happen.
The ADI is a fair bit cheaper than any electric AI that I have seen.
I agree with Tim that it is too bad to have to have a separate
antenna, but it is nice to have one instrument that is completely
independent of the rest of the system (if you have the backup battery).
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jan 31, 2008, at 7:47 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I'm inclined to sit squarely on the fence about the ADI. It's not
> a bad instrument, considering it gives you GPS track, and bank,
> and first instantaneous pitch indication....transitioning to
> more of a rate of climb. It also will warn you if your airspeed
> slows near stall, so it has that for safety too.
> So there is some good stuff there.
>
> But, then there are the downsides.
> 1) If you DO get it with the internal GPS, then you have another
> antenna to deal with. If you DO NOT, then it's really not going
> to give you much for GPS track unless you have it hooked to
> a GPS that will survive an electric-out situation in the panel
> anyway....so you may not actually get to use that TRK indication
> when you need it unless you're careful to hook it up the way
> you need.
>
> 2) It lacks the skid ball, like the TruTrak Turn-n-bank has.
>
> 3) It costs much more than a Turn-N-Bank
>
> 4) While I can't argue that if you're climbing, you're not worried
> about stalling your way to the ground, it really isn't true
> attitude being displayed. The second you pitch up or down, it is,
> but then it's a VSI. If you're looking for real attitude, then
> that isn't going to give it to you. That said, it's still going
> to give you tools to keep your butt alive, because if you're
> not descending, you're not stalled out and headed for the ground,
> either.
>
> The thing is, for a strictly backup instrument, I found that since
> my GNS480 was on my E-Bus, that I had TRK already, and you have
> GPS altitude if you want. And of course you still have airspeed
> to use as reference, and altimeter, so you know if you're
> descending, or slowing in a stall. You just can't tell your
> pitch attitude. But angle of the nose to the horizon isn't the
> most important thing to know. Keeping the wings level is
> super important though. So, considering how MUCH stuff you
> have with a GPS+TNB+ASI+ALT, if you have all of those as
> backups, the added value of some of the features the ADI has
> gets to be less important. It's also a much longer instrument,
> that I found just barely makes it from the front panel to the
> subpanel. So from many perspectives, although I now own and
> fly the ADI, I would have been just as happy with the TNB,
> myself. If it had a skid ball, it would be a good improvement
> too.
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> William Curtis wrote:
>> <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>> I have. I had it in another aircraft as a temporary replacement for
>> a "real" AI and it was definitely different. I never did get use to
>> flying precisely by it as opposed to a real AI before I removed it
>> (real AI was back from overhaul) but it has given me pause on using
>> it in the RV-10. I think I will trade it in on my True Trak
>> autopilot purchase and get a real electrically powered AI. Maybe it
>> just required getting used to. While theoretically it offers the
>> same information as a Turn coordinator plus vertical speed, I can fly
>> with the turn coordinator much better than I can with the ADI. Over
>> time maybe that would change. Results inconclusive but definitely
>> not a slam dunk replacement.
>> William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ "Be who you are and say what you
>> feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't
>> mind." -- Dr. Suess
>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Hi:
>>> I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator)
>>> as a back-up for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears
>>> it operates quite a bit differently than a standard attitude
>>> indicator.
>>> Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your
>>> thoughts on how it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like
>>> flying it?? Do you think it is worth it?? Etc??
>>> Thanks
>>> Mark
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
You have a point if you assume a traditional power distribution scheme.
With dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel, I opted for a more
reliable approach than that used in certified aircraft.
The issue of big wires through the firewall is really secondary.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60 amps
from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect
the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter
contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit.
You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main
buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you still have
"heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and then
a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for
certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery
side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
circuit breaker firewall forward.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
alternator.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
[quote="wcurtis(at)nerv10.com"]
> I use a thru bulkhead connector show on the attached picture.
William,
Where did you source your connector?
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161735#161735
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
before you blow. A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
Tim
PJ Seipel wrote:
>
> Make sure you take a look at the data sheet for your breaker before you
> decide to upsize the number of amps too much. For example, the 30 amp
> Tyco breaker I'm using for my backup SD-20 alternator is rated such that
> it may take up to 1 hour at 145% or 43 amps before it trips. At 200%,
> i.e. 60 amps, it may still take up to 30 seconds to trip. If that
> breaker trips, then my alternator is definitely overloaded and I'd sure
> want to take a look at the problem before continuing on.
>
> PJ Seipel
> RV-10 #40032
>
> Carl Froehlich wrote:
>> <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>>
>> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious
>> trips. If
>> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
>> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
>> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This
>> kept
>> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
>> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
>> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
>> alternator.
>>
>> Carl Froehlich
>> RV-8A (375 hrs)
>> RV-10 (wings)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>>
>>
>> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
>> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
>> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place
>> the 60A
>> CB.
>> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash
>> to keep
>> the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument
>> panel.
>>
>> --------
>> Gary Blankenbiller
>> RV10 - # 40674
>> Fuselage SB
>> (N410GB reserved)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
>
> I have found a source for 60 & 70 amp CBs and yes they are very
> pricey but no fuseses that big was one of the primary reasons I have
> been thinking of going the CB route.
>
Just search for ANL online...they're all over in the card audio
type places. Nice ones, too, with gold plating and good
housings.
>
> Passing 'big' wires through the firewall bothers me and the fewer
> possible makes me feel better. That is why I am considering possibly
> in front of the firewall.
>
Yes, but the biggest, nastiest wire in your plane is the one
going from your battery forward. That battery can source hundreds
of amps, and it doesn't stop when the engine stops. People forget
that of the "big wires" they're worried about, some of those
are the biggest worry. Sooner or later you need to put that
power to the panel busses.....doesn't matter where it comes
in from.
>
> Do you have a good source for that big an ANL fuse? I have checked
> all my normal sources.
>
All over online. Even Ebay.
> -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 Fuselage SB (N410GB
> reserved)
Tim
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Don't forget that if you have to crank more than normal, or if
something has drawn your battery down a little, your alternator will
be charging your battery as well as powering everything in the plane,
which will take you over the current that you use continuously.
However, I agree that a 60A fuse on a 70A alternator is probably no
problem at all, and that if it blows in flight you probably won't want
to reset it, but (just thinking out loud) is it possible that the fuse
could blow and you not realize it, maybe thinking the alternator
itself is bad or the field circuit has failed? With a CB in sight
there is no question where the failure is.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jan 31, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
> alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
> my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
> avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
> wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
> the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
> before you blow. A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
> 60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
> want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
> That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
> Tim
>
>
> PJ Seipel wrote:
>> Make sure you take a look at the data sheet for your breaker before
>> you decide to upsize the number of amps too much. For example, the
>> 30 amp Tyco breaker I'm using for my backup SD-20 alternator is
>> rated such that it may take up to 1 hour at 145% or 43 amps before
>> it trips. At 200%, i.e. 60 amps, it may still take up to 30
>> seconds to trip. If that breaker trips, then my alternator is
>> definitely overloaded and I'd sure want to take a look at the
>> problem before continuing on.
>> PJ Seipel
>> RV-10 #40032
>> Carl Froehlich wrote:
>>> >
>>>
>>> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious
>>> trips. If
>>> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem,
>>> something you
>>> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the
>>> breaker. In my
>>> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall.
>>> This kept
>>> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for
>>> one
>>> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery
>>> install with
>>> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight
>>> without the
>>> alternator.
>>>
>>> Carl Froehlich
>>> RV-8A (375 hrs)
>>> RV-10 (wings)
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>>>
>>>
>>> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses
>>> and
>>> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
>>> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to
>>> place the 60A
>>> CB.
>>> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the
>>> dash to keep
>>> the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the
>>> instrument
>>> panel.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Gary Blankenbiller
>>> RV10 - # 40674
>>> Fuselage SB
>>> (N410GB reserved)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
OK, that answer prompts another question that is not rhetorical.
>I have a dual battery install with separate right/left busses that support continued
IFR flight without the alternator.
Continued IFR without an alternator-- How is that possible? OK, maybe possible,
but prudent?
I used the term traditional because there are many ways to put all the wires together
to achieve the same ends. The certified aircraft to which I am referring
is the all electric dual battery, dual main, dual avionics buss Cirrus SR series.
They used to have their POH on line that anyone could download which detailed
the electrical system. I can't find it on their site anymore but I have
the SR22 POH in pdf if anyone is interested.
By all accounts, the Cirrus system is very good and reliable but I don't think
even Cirrus will say you can continue IFR flight without the alternator. And
the Cirrus engine is not dependant on the electrical system as your electronic
ignition is. If you have a design that is more robust than the Cirrus, I (and
I'm sure other builders) would be very interested in seeing it.
I apologize in advanced for the pointed questions, however as builders, I think
we sometimes design pens that work in zero-g rather than just using a pencil.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
>
> You have a point if you assume a traditional power distribution scheme.
> With dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel, I opted for a more
> reliable approach than that used in certified aircraft.
>
> The issue of big wires through the firewall is really secondary.
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:40 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>
>
> If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60 amps
> from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
>
> I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect
> the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter
> contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit.
> You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main
> buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you still have
> "heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
>
> Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and then
> a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for
> certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery
> side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
> circuit breaker firewall forward.
>
> William
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
> and those who matter don't mind."
> -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
> alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Even with this non-time-delay ANL, here's an info sheet
that shows some details:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANL_Specs.pdf
This is on a 50A ANL:
Notice you can pull over 200A, for 1 second, and can pull 100A+ for
basically at least 100 seconds, or possibly nearly an unlimited
amount of time. If you interpolate the graph, even the lowly 50A
ANL is likely going to stay running with no problem unless you
have some sort of hard fault. A dead battery will draw more power
from the alternator, but you really should be running your alternator
near 100% of capacity for much time. That's why I went with a 70A
alternator....slower turning, cooler running, and a larger margin
over the operating load.
I'm not too worried about losing the fuse and not knowing. It would
first be immediately noticeable on the voltmeter, as you won't
have a voltage anywhere NEAR 14v if you put a load on it and
don't have a working alternator, and I also have visual and
audio alerts for voltage, and can set them in the EIS for Amperage
too, since I have the hall-effect current sensor installed.
But again, with a load on a battery, your voltage will immediately
be in the 12's.....so setting a voltage alert for 13V or
even higher would give you an alert if you lost an alternator.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> Don't forget that if you have to crank more than normal, or if something
> has drawn your battery down a little, your alternator will be charging
> your battery as well as powering everything in the plane, which will
> take you over the current that you use continuously.
>
> However, I agree that a 60A fuse on a 70A alternator is probably no
> problem at all, and that if it blows in flight you probably won't want
> to reset it, but (just thinking out loud) is it possible that the fuse
> could blow and you not realize it, maybe thinking the alternator itself
> is bad or the field circuit has failed? With a CB in sight there is no
> question where the failure is.
>
> do not archive
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> On Jan 31, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
>> alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
>> my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
>> avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
>> wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
>> the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
>> before you blow. A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
>> 60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
>> want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
>> That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> PJ Seipel wrote:
>>> Make sure you take a look at the data sheet for your breaker before
>>> you decide to upsize the number of amps too much. For example, the
>>> 30 amp Tyco breaker I'm using for my backup SD-20 alternator is rated
>>> such that it may take up to 1 hour at 145% or 43 amps before it
>>> trips. At 200%, i.e. 60 amps, it may still take up to 30 seconds to
>>> trip. If that breaker trips, then my alternator is definitely
>>> overloaded and I'd sure want to take a look at the problem before
>>> continuing on.
>>> PJ Seipel
>>> RV-10 #40032
>>> Carl Froehlich wrote:
>>>> <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>>>>
>>>> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious
>>>> trips. If
>>>> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something
>>>> you
>>>> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker.
>>>> In my
>>>> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall.
>>>> This kept
>>>> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
>>>> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install
>>>> with
>>>> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without
>>>> the
>>>> alternator.
>>>>
>>>> Carl Froehlich
>>>> RV-8A (375 hrs)
>>>> RV-10 (wings)
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
>>>> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
>>>> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place
>>>> the 60A
>>>> CB.
>>>> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash
>>>> to keep
>>>> the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the
>>>> instrument
>>>> panel.
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Gary Blankenbiller
>>>> RV10 - # 40674
>>>> Fuselage SB
>>>> (N410GB reserved)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
William, the attachment supports your comments.
I have just completed an endorsement on the Cirrus SR-20 (need to fly
something similar until the ten is completed!) and I experienced an ALT2
failure last Sunday whilst VFR, so these things do happen and from what
I have been told are common.
Patrick
#40299 VH-XPP
Adelaide, South Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: William Curtis [mailto:wcurtis@nerv10.com]
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
OK, that answer prompts another question that is not rhetorical.
>I have a dual battery install with separate right/left busses that
support continued IFR flight without the alternator.
Continued IFR without an alternator-- How is that possible? OK, maybe
possible, but prudent?
I used the term traditional because there are many ways to put all the
wires together to achieve the same ends. The certified aircraft to
which I am referring is the all electric dual battery, dual main, dual
avionics buss Cirrus SR series. They used to have their POH on line
that anyone could download which detailed the electrical system. I
can't find it on their site anymore but I have the SR22 POH in pdf if
anyone is interested.
By all accounts, the Cirrus system is very good and reliable but I don't
think even Cirrus will say you can continue IFR flight without the
alternator. And the Cirrus engine is not dependant on the electrical
system as your electronic ignition is. If you have a design that is
more robust than the Cirrus, I (and I'm sure other builders) would be
very interested in seeing it.
I apologize in advanced for the pointed questions, however as builders,
I think we sometimes design pens that work in zero-g rather than just
using a pencil.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't
matter and those who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> --> <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> You have a point if you assume a traditional power distribution
scheme.
> With dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel, I opted for
> a more reliable approach than that used in certified aircraft.
>
> The issue of big wires through the firewall is really secondary.
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Curtis
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:40 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>
>
> If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60
> amps from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
>
> I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders
> connect the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the
> starter contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of
the cockpit.
> You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the
> main buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you
> still have "heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
>
> Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse)
> and then a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal
practice for
> certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the
battery
> side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
> circuit breaker firewall forward.
>
> William
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't
> matter and those who matter don't mind."
> -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich"
> > <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious
> trips. If the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem,
> something you might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting
> the breaker. In my RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of
> the firewall. This kept all the heavy wiring on the engine side of
> the firewall except for one penetration to the starter solenoid. I
> have a dual battery install with separate right/left busses that
> support continued IFR flight without the alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Costs of Flying in Europe |
Jon,
there are several N registered plans flying in Europe so that might be
something to consider, you just need to get an approval from the LBA
(the German FAA) to fly your plane in Europe and you have to stick to
the US rules concerning inspection, insurance etc. (check with the FAA).
Just any landing/touch will cost you money and as Michael told fuel is
expensive!
BTW "Tankosh" is pretty much in between Munich and Michaels homtown Zurich!
Let us know if we can help more!
Werner
Jon Reining wrote:
>
> Michael and others,
>
> My wife and I are considering a job in Munich and Im wondering about the costs
of flying in Europe. Last year we were all abuzz with the possibility of user
fees and a system similar to that in Europe. Many articles said it was expensive,
but how much? I'm sure they were trying to use the worst case scenario
to get us to oppose user fees (don't worry, I oppose) but what is the reality?
>
> I went online and looked up a couple of aeroclubs in Munich with their own strips
one close to downtown the other further out.
>
> Say you just want to go out for:
> A couple of touch and gos
> Take up a couple friends for a sight seeing flight around town
> Fly about 45 minutes to your favorite lunch spot
> Fly from Munich to Rome to visit the in-laws
>
> Roughly how much would each of these scenarios cost if flown VFR only? Can you
fly VFR only? Does it make sense to ship over the Citabria? I'm guessing
it would have to go though a German registration process - how onerous is that?
(My guess is sell the Citabria and buy something else already registered in
Germany once there.)
>
> Thanks for any help!
> Jon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161582#161582
>
>
>
Message 35
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We have one in our RV10, I wouldn't do it again, it's difficult to use, in hard
IFR.
Sam Marlow
---- FLAGSTONE <flagstone@cox.net> wrote:
============
Hi:
I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator) as a back-up
for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears it operates quite a bit
differently than a standard attitude indicator.
Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your thoughts on how
it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like flying it?? Do you think it is
worth it?? Etc??
Thanks
Mark
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