Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:38 AM - Re: O-540 C4B5 (ddnebert)
2. 06:35 AM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (linn Walters)
3. 06:57 AM - Re: RV10-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 01/31/08 (John Barrett)
4. 07:00 AM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Kelly McMullen)
5. 07:25 AM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
6. 07:31 AM - Re: TruTrak ADI (Tim Olson)
7. 07:48 AM - Re: TruTrak ADI (Vernon Smith)
8. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: O-540 C4B5 (tom.on.the.road@juno.com)
9. 08:12 AM - Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Chuck Henry)
10. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
11. 08:34 AM - Ammeter Location (Jesse Saint)
12. 08:42 AM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Jesse Saint)
13. 08:58 AM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Pascal)
14. 09:19 AM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Tim Olson)
15. 09:27 AM - Re: Ammeter Location (William Curtis)
16. 09:38 AM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Chuck Henry)
17. 10:34 AM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Gerry Filby)
18. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (LES KEARNEY)
19. 10:56 AM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Patrick ONeill)
20. 11:44 AM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Jeff Carpenter)
21. 11:44 AM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (John W. Cox)
22. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Vernon Smith)
23. 12:04 PM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Maule Driver)
24. 12:05 PM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions ()
25. 12:07 PM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Tim Olson)
26. 12:27 PM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (John W. Cox)
27. 12:30 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (orchidman)
28. 12:41 PM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Jesse Saint)
29. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
30. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Vernon Smith)
31. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
32. 03:44 PM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Bob-tcw)
33. 04:20 PM - Re: Minimum Instruments ( was TruTrak ADI) (FLAGSTONE)
34. 04:53 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Carl Froehlich)
35. 07:46 PM - Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions (Dave Leikam)
36. 08:23 PM - Foam core (Fred Williams, M.D.)
37. 08:36 PM - Re: Foam core (Chris and Susie McGough)
38. 08:51 PM - Re: Foam core ()
39. 08:53 PM - Re: Foam core (John W. Cox)
40. 11:07 PM - Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
41. 11:09 PM - Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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I see many more C4B5-type engines listed than the D-series engines. Are the 700+
of us -10 builders keeping the demand high, or is the D-series just less common?
--------
RV-10 Builder #40546
Tail mostly done, wings complete, starting SB fuse
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161805#161805
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
> alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
> my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
> avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
> wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
> the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
> before you blow.
Not really true. The size of the breaker is there to protect the wire,
which could cause a fire if it gets a large escess of current. The size
of the wire is dictated by the load. True of small wires and big ones too.
Linn
do not archive
> A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
> 60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
> want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
> That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
> Tim
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: RV10-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 01/31/08 |
Hello Mark et al,
I'm a lurker on your site and thought I'd chime in with an opinion. I am
nearly finished with my Lancair IVP and strongly considered the ADI by Tru
Trak until I understood how it works. My plane will be all electric with 2
screen Chelton MFD panels and the ADI could have conceivably doubled for a
couple of back up steam gauges. That was an exciting concept.
The deciding factor was that because of the VSI input mimicking attitude
function, I felt that the display could be very confusing and disorienting
in the very spot where I would need it the most to survive a total failure
of the MFD system. I think it would take a complete retraining in order to
safely fly a high performance airplane in emergency conditions and I would
have to maintain proficiency in that retraining. For almost 50 years I've
been used to knowing exactly what an AI instrument is telling me and I'm not
comfortable with a gauge that looks like an AI but really isn't.
For that reason I reluctantly passed and accepted the standard 2" 6 pack for
"save my butt" backup. By the way I am a complete rah rah fan of the Tru
Trak autopilot and the folks who came up with it. I purchased what turned
out to be prototype servos when the company started and they graciously
replaced them shortly afterwards when they found they needed more robust
ones for the IVP. Good guys and brilliant visionaries.
Regards,
John Barrett, CEO
Barrett/Garrett Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 428
Port Hadlock, WA 98339
www.carbinge.com
Hi:
I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator) as a
back-up
for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears it operates quite a
bit
differently than a standard attitude indicator.
Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your thoughts on
how
it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like flying it?? Do you think it
is
worth it?? Etc??
Thanks
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV10-List Digest
Server
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 11:58 PM
Subject: RV10-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 01/31/08
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete RV10-List Digest can also be found in either of the
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HTML Version:
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RV10-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Thu 01/31/08: 35
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:48 AM - Re: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump (Russell Daves)
2. 04:24 AM - Re: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
(darnpilot@aol.com)
3. 07:08 AM - Trimming the cowling (Rick Sked)
4. 07:46 AM - Re: Trimming the cowling (Michael Wellenzohn)
5. 09:25 AM - Re: LED lights (johngoodman)
6. 09:51 AM - Costs of Flying in Europe (Jon Reining)
7. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: LED lights (Gerry Filby)
8. 11:58 AM - Re: Costs of Flying in Europe (Michael Wellenzohn)
9. 01:14 PM - Alternator Circuit Breaker (orchidman)
10. 01:50 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
11. 02:45 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (David McNeill)
12. 02:46 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Jesse Saint)
13. 03:24 PM - Any Hawaii Builders?? (James, Peter [SD])
14. 03:39 PM - TruTrak ADI (FLAGSTONE)
15. 03:39 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Carl Froehlich)
16. 03:45 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
17. 04:05 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (orchidman)
18. 04:14 PM - Re: TruTrak ADI (William Curtis)
19. 04:38 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
20. 04:47 PM - Re: Trimming the cowling (jim berry)
21. 04:47 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (PJ Seipel)
22. 04:51 PM - Re: TruTrak ADI (Tim Olson)
23. 04:52 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Kelly McMullen)
24. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
25. 05:50 PM - Re: TruTrak ADI (Jesse Saint)
26. 05:53 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Carl Froehlich)
27. 06:22 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (orchidman)
28. 06:38 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
29. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
30. 07:21 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Jesse Saint)
31. 07:57 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (William Curtis)
32. 08:19 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Tim Olson)
33. 08:50 PM - Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker (Patrick Pulis)
34. 11:10 PM - Re: Costs of Flying in Europe (Werner Schneider)
35. 11:41 PM - Re: TruTrak ADI (sam@fr8dog.net)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 03:48:14 AM PST US
From: "Russell Daves" <dav1111@erfwireless.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
From: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
For those of you already flying with a Lycoming -540 engine...
Is the RV-10 electrically driven fuel pump???
1) A "boost pump" (i.e. run only for engine prime prior to start
and then turned
off for flight)?
On prior to start, then off. On for takeoff and landing.
2) Run only during flight to serve as a backup to engine driven
fuel pump?
See above - On immediately if you encounter engine problems.
3) Run primarily at take off and landing time to serve as a backup
to the engine
driven fuel pump?
See above.
4) If both fuel pumps are run at the same time, could that cause
engine flooding
problems? (this would seem unlikely)
Hasn't happened to me and don't see how it could. I often leave mine on
from prior to start, through taxi, take off and have on a few occasions
forget to turn it off for more than a few minutes into the flight.
I believe the Cessnas I've flown exhibited #1 while Pipers I've
flown exhibited
#2/3. What about the RV-10?
See Above
Russ Daves - N710RV - 190+ hours
Regards,
Jay
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 04:24:04 AM PST US
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
From: darnpilot@aol.com
All the replies are right on.=C2- One other consideration:=C2-depending
upon your installation (engine/fuel/FWF/ambient temps), after you get fully
warmed up, you might need to run the pump to prevent vapor lock/engine stumb
ling, i.e., you just landed and its 90 degrees out, you might get the fuel o
verheated and some vapor...a burst of the fuel pump will alleviate the probl
em.
FWIW
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Doerr, Ray R [NTK] <Ray.R.Doerr@sprint.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 2:06 pm
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- I run the
electric pump in the tunnel for initial starting and then during take off a
nd landing at that critical part of flight where you would not want your eng
ine driven pump to fail.
=C2-
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250 N519RV =93 350 hours.
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Brinkmeyer
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10 electrically driven fuel pump
=C2-
For those of you already flying with a Lycoming -540 engine...
Is the RV-10 electrically driven fuel pump???
1) A "boost pump" (i.e. run only for engine prime prior to start and then tu
rned off for flight)?
2) Run only during flight to serve as a backup to engine driven fuel pump?
3) Run primarily at take off and landing time to serve as a backup to the en
gine driven fuel pump?
4) If both fuel pumps are run at the same time, could that cause engine floo
ding problems? (this would seem unlikely)
I believe the Cessnas I've flown exhibited #1 while Pipers I've flown exhibi
ted #2/3. What about the RV-10?
Regards,
Jay
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2-
-=======================
==============
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2-
-=======================
==============
________________________________________________________________________
aol.com
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 07:08:04 AM PST US
From: Rick Sked <ricksked@embarqmail.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Trimming the cowling
For the last three days I have been staring at the first few steps of
fitting the
cowling...The plans indicate not to trim the sides but the sides interfere
with getting to fit the nose ring. Any tips on the first few steps of the
cowl?
By using the straight edge method it looks like about an 1/8 or little more
needs to come off the inner intake on the top cowl. The bottom doesn't sem
to
need any trimmig on the outer portion of the intakes. Comments on how those
who
have completed have done this? The masking tape method really looks like a
great
way to fit the aft part of the cowl...I just can't get a picture of how Vans
wants you to do the first few steps.
Rick S.
40185
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 07:46:09 AM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Trimming the cowling
From: "Michael Wellenzohn" <rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
Rick,
since I just did this step here are my lessons learned.
1.) I had to cut a bit off the outer air intake to get the parts together.
However
do not cut along to the sides too much. I did that but I guess this will be
no problem.
2) I put the two halves together and drilled & clecoed them as per plans.
3) For the further steps I followed the plans.
I am not done yet but I was irritated because the to halves didn't fit at
the beginning
and it looked so easy on the plans.
I will try to update my web site www.wellenzohn.net with some pictures
tonight.
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (engine, prop, finishing)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161561#161561
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 09:25:46 AM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Re: LED lights
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman@earthlink.net>
OK, I'll try to attach some photos. As far as I'm concerned this lights are
perfect
for me. $620 plus $9 shipping. Everything in package including wiring
connections,
etc. The power supply is called the Driver and it fits on the Van's
optional Strobe/ELT mount although the nutplates are for a smaller unit.
I'll
just modify the mount to fit.
John
--------
#40572 QB Wings, QB Fuse arrived
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161568#161568
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starboardwinggrn1_733.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starboardwinggrn_129.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/portwingred_243.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/whitetail1_170.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/whitetail_100.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/thepackage_106.jpg
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 09:51:50 AM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Costs of Flying in Europe
From: "Jon Reining" <jonathan.w.reining@wellsfargo.com>
Michael and others,
My wife and I are considering a job in Munich and Im wondering about the
costs
of flying in Europe. Last year we were all abuzz with the possibility of
user
fees and a system similar to that in Europe. Many articles said it was
expensive,
but how much? I'm sure they were trying to use the worst case scenario
to get us to oppose user fees (don't worry, I oppose) but what is the
reality?
I went online and looked up a couple of aeroclubs in Munich with their own
strips
one close to downtown the other further out.
Say you just want to go out for:
A couple of touch and gos
Take up a couple friends for a sight seeing flight around town
Fly about 45 minutes to your favorite lunch spot
Fly from Munich to Rome to visit the in-laws
Roughly how much would each of these scenarios cost if flown VFR only? Can
you
fly VFR only? Does it make sense to ship over the Citabria? I'm guessing
it
would have to go though a German registration process - how onerous is that?
(My guess is sell the Citabria and buy something else already registered in
Germany
once there.)
Thanks for any help!
Jon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161582#161582
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 10:42:43 AM PST US
From: "Gerry Filby" <gerf@gerf.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: LED lights
If its the same tail unit I bought - note that you'll have to do a little
work to get it to fit in fairing hole - I think its a little bigger diameter
than the standard unit from Whelen.
g
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:19 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: LED lights
--> <johngoodman@earthlink.net>
OK, I'll try to attach some photos. As far as I'm concerned this lights are
perfect for me. $620 plus $9 shipping. Everything in package including
wiring connections, etc. The power supply is called the Driver and it fits
on the Van's optional Strobe/ELT mount although the nutplates are for a
smaller unit. I'll just modify the mount to fit.
John
--------
#40572 QB Wings, QB Fuse arrived
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161568#161568
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starboardwinggrn1_733.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starboardwinggrn_129.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/portwingred_243.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/whitetail1_170.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/whitetail_100.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/thepackage_106.jpg
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 11:58:58 AM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Costs of Flying in Europe
From: "Michael Wellenzohn" <rv-10@wellenzohn.net>
Hi Jon,
good to hear from you. There are a couple things to consider. First of all
Countries
in Europe have totally different prices when it comes to landing fees etc.
I general you can say that the fuel is definitely more expensive than in the
US.
In Landshut 1 Liter was in September '07 2.11 Euro per Liter that is about
8 $
a gallon.
A good comparison gives you the following link of charter prices.
http://www.eddh.de/info/charter.html
As far as I remember from Oshkosh you speak German, else I can still
translate
:-)
Landing fees are between 5-20 Euros and it depends sometimes if you are
local pilot
or club member.
But flying from Munich gives you beautiful opportunities to fly to the Alps
and
visit my home country Austria or help me sanding all the composite stuff in
Switzerland
:-)
Near Munich in Tannheim is also Tannkosh Europe biggest Flyin (guess where
they
took the name from) once a year. Drop me a line if you want more info.
Michael
--------
RV-10 builder (engine, prop, finishing)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161640#161640
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 01:14:07 PM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
From: "orchidman" <gary@wingscc.com>
Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
circuit breakers
for the alternator output protection.
I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A
CB.
Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to keep
the
wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument panel.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 01:50:04 PM PST US
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
I decided on mine to forego the Circuit Breaker and do the fuse thing.
The reason is a few fold...
First, I did indeed buy a breaker at one point, but it's a pretty
fat wire you put on a 60-70A breaker, and that fat wire was stiff, and
I heard something plastic internal to the breaker crack. This did
not leave me feeling very good. I decided that unless you're
going to have a solid way to mount a breaker, and hold the wire
totally imobile and prevent cracking, it would not be a good idea to
use that breaker. Also, it isn't that easy to find a good breaker
of that size, and at a good cost.
Then, you also have the big fat wire coming up to your panel or
subpanel, further into the cabin that it needs to be. On mine,
I did mount it inside the firewall, but on the firewall, but
there is no reason that I needed to put it there. It could have
just as easily gone in the engine compartment. I like where it
is, and it's worked out well though.
Also, on my plane, I draw in the low 40's for amps at full draw
with everything lit up and turned on, including pitot heat. If my
60A breaker blows, I really don't think it would be a good idea for
me to re-set it in flight. So, you may as well use a fuse, at that
point. I work on lots of electronic things, and I don't mind
tinkering, but in the air is probably not the place. I do carry
a spare fuse though, in my kit.
If you're really leaning towards a CB, then you may as well skip
the idea of putting it under the cowl. If you're willing to
go under the cowl to deal with it, you shouldn't have any
objection to staying simple and cheap and going with a fuse.
As far as design goes, I was happy with my ANL fuse, because not
only was it simple to mount and hook up, but it included a nice
clear plastic case and cover. So it's easy to see if it blows.
Of course, I haven't had the opportunity to see it blown yet.
Now, one other reason I don't care about re-setting a breaker
is because with a good backup battery system, I'd rather treat
the real unusual case of a blow B-lead breaker to be somewhat
of an emergency....and use the hour or more of battery that I
have left to get on the ground. If that thing blows, I've got
some problems somewhere, and being on the ground is a good
plan anyway until I can figure out what caused it.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
orchidman wrote:
>
> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection. I am leaning
> to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A CB.
> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash
> to keep the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the
> instrument panel.
>
> -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 Fuselage SB (N410GB
> reserved)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>
>
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 02:45:52 PM PST US
From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
two 30 or 35s in parallel with a short copper bus bar between them. Easy
attach of the fat wire.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:08 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A
CB.
Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to keep
the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument
panel.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 02:46:58 PM PST US
From: Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
I always put in a circuit breaker and I put it in a location that it
can be seen if it pops, which would mean on the panel or nearby.
Since you will likely have 8AWG wire going to and from it, it is
important to think about routing as you plan where to put it. That
size wire doesn't bent too easily, so there needs to be a little
clearance from other items in the direction that the wire leaves the
breaker. I as I have heard others argue in the past, when a cb pops,
it is often unlikely that just pushing it back in will solve the
problem, which is an argument for using fuses, but it is also nice to
have that visual alert that something has happened rather than just
see your voltage drop or your alternator failure light come on.
Just my $.02, which is probably worth less than 50% of that.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jan 31, 2008, at 4:08 PM, orchidman wrote:
>
> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses
> and circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place
> the 60A CB.
> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash
> to keep the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on
> the instrument panel.
>
> --------
> Gary Blankenbiller
> RV10 - # 40674
> Fuselage SB
> (N410GB reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>
>
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 03:24:12 PM PST US
From: "James, Peter [SD]" <Peter.James@sprint.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Any Hawaii Builders??
I will be in Hawaii in a couple of weeks and wondered if there were any RV-
10 builders that I could stop by and visit.... Any such luck?! I'd be gra
teful for an island tour in other model RV's as well! The wife and teenag
ers will be along.... So a formation flight would be pretty cool too!
Pete James
RV-10 - 90% Done - 90% to go!
It WILL fly later this year!
peter.james at sprint.com
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 03:39:01 PM PST US
From: "FLAGSTONE" <flagstone@cox.net>
Subject: RV10-List: TruTrak ADI
Hi:
I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator) as a
back-up for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears it
operates quite a bit differently than a standard attitude indicator.
Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your thoughts
on how it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like flying it?? Do
you think it is worth it?? Etc??
Thanks
Mark
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 03:39:07 PM PST US
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
alternator.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A
CB.
Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to keep
the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument
panel.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
Time: 03:45:33 PM PST US
Subject: re: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
Aircraft Spruce sells a 60-70 alternator circuit breaker (non pull-able)
relatively
inexpensively and is the standard of certified OEM manufacturers. They are
also less expensive than an ANL and holder.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/6070amp.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/graphics/6070circuitbreak.jpg
For 60-70 AMPs the wire from the alternator only needs to be #8 AWG (or #6).
An
#8AWG Tefzel wire is only 3/16" thick and easy to manage behind the panel
attached
to the circuit breaker. Alternator to breaker, breaker to buss.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
circuit
breakers for the alternator output protection.
I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the 60A
CB.
Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to
keep the
wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument panel.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
Time: 04:05:53 PM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker
From: "orchidman" <gary@wingscc.com>
Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> First, I did indeed buy a breaker at one point, but it's a pretty
> fat wire you put on a 60-70A breaker, and that fat wire was stiff, and
> I heard something plastic internal to the breaker crack. This did
> not leave me feeling very good. I decided that unless you're
> going to have a solid way to mount a breaker, and hold the wire
> totally mobile and prevent cracking, it would not be a good idea to
> use that breaker. Also, it isn't that easy to find a good breaker
> of that size, and at a good cost.
I have found a source for 60 & 70 amp CBs and yes they are very pricey but
no fuseses
that big was one of the primary reasons I have been thinking of going the
CB route.
> Then, you also have the big fat wire coming up to your panel or
> subpanel, further into the cabin that it needs to be. On mine,
> I did mount it inside the firewall, but on the firewall, but
> there is no reason that I needed to put it there. It could have
> just as easily gone in the engine compartment. I like where it
> is, and it's worked out well though.
Passing 'big' wires through the firewall bothers me and the fewer possible
makes
me feel better. That is why I am considering possibly in front of the
firewall.
> Also, on my plane, I draw in the low 40's for amps at full draw
> with everything lit up and turned on, including pitot heat. If my
> 60A breaker blows, I really don't think it would be a good idea for
> me to re-set it in flight. So, you may as well use a fuse, at that
> point. I work on lots of electronic things, and I don't mind
> tinkering, but in the air is probably not the place. I do carry
> a spare fuse though, in my kit.
> ...
> As far as design goes, I was happy with my ANL fuse, because not
> only was it simple to mount and hook up, but it included a nice
> clear plastic case and cover. So it's easy to see if it blows.
> Of course, I haven't had the opportunity to see it blown yet.
Do you have a good source for that big an ANL fuse? I have checked all my
normal
sources.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161686#161686
________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
Time: 04:14:39 PM PST US
Subject: re: RV10-List: TruTrak ADI
From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
I have. I had it in another aircraft as a temporary replacement for a
"real" AI
and it was definitely different. I never did get use to flying precisely by
it as opposed to a real AI before I removed it (real AI was back from
overhaul)
but it has given me pause on using it in the RV-10. I think I will trade it
in on my True Trak autopilot purchase and get a real electrically powered
AI.
Maybe it just required getting used to. While theoretically it offers the
same information as a Turn coordinator plus vertical speed, I can fly with
the
turn coordinator much better than I can with the ADI. Over time maybe that
would
change. Results inconclusive but definitely not a slam dunk replacement.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> Hi:
>
> I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator) as a
back-up
for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears it operates quite a
bit differently than a standard attitude indicator.
>
> Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your thoughts on
how
it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like flying it?? Do you think it
is worth it?? Etc??
>
> Thanks
>
> Mark
________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
Time: 04:38:44 PM PST US
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60 amps
from
the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect
the
output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter contactor
thinking
they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit. You still need to
run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main buss. So unless you
buss
is also forward of the firewall, you still have "heavy" wires coming into
the cabin.
Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and then
a
separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for certified
aircraft.
Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery side of the starter
contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or circuit breaker firewall
forward.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
alternator.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
________________________________ Message 20
____________________________________
Time: 04:47:03 PM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Trimming the cowling
From: "jim berry" <jimberry@qwest.net>
Rick,
Like Michael I found it necessary to trim the inner and outer walls of the
air
inlet to get the upper an lower portions to come together. I also trimmed
about
2" along the side of the upper cowl. Once you have the upper and lower cowl
in position(let the sides of the lower cowl overlap the outside of the upper
cowl)
you can decide where you want the side seams to be. Lay out your chosen line
on the upper cowl, cut and sand to a straight edge. Then you can use the
masking
tape trick to transfer that line to the lower cowl. I failed to mention
in an earlier post that I also used the masking tape routine to fit my doors
to the cabin top. It is much easier than trimming a little at a time until
it
comes together.
Don't worry if you take off a little too much at some point. It is easy to
build
up an edge with a little flox if needed. Also I have seen several 10's where
the rivets that hold the piano hinge to the cowling(and/or the paint) have
started
to crack out. I dealt with that by putting a 2 bid tape over the rivet
lines.
Jim Berry
40482
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161697#161697
________________________________ Message 21
____________________________________
Time: 04:47:37 PM PST US
From: PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
Make sure you take a look at the data sheet for your breaker before you
decide to upsize the number of amps too much. For example, the 30 amp
Tyco breaker I'm using for my backup SD-20 alternator is rated such that
it may take up to 1 hour at 145% or 43 amps before it trips. At 200%,
i.e. 60 amps, it may still take up to 30 seconds to trip. If that
breaker trips, then my alternator is definitely overloaded and I'd sure
want to take a look at the problem before continuing on.
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
Carl Froehlich wrote:
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
> alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>
>
> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place the
60A
> CB.
> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash to
keep
> the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument
> panel.
>
> --------
> Gary Blankenbiller
> RV10 - # 40674
> Fuselage SB
> (N410GB reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 22
____________________________________
Time: 04:51:59 PM PST US
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TruTrak ADI
I'm inclined to sit squarely on the fence about the ADI. It's not
a bad instrument, considering it gives you GPS track, and bank,
and first instantaneous pitch indication....transitioning to
more of a rate of climb. It also will warn you if your airspeed
slows near stall, so it has that for safety too.
So there is some good stuff there.
But, then there are the downsides.
1) If you DO get it with the internal GPS, then you have another
antenna to deal with. If you DO NOT, then it's really not going
to give you much for GPS track unless you have it hooked to
a GPS that will survive an electric-out situation in the panel
anyway....so you may not actually get to use that TRK indication
when you need it unless you're careful to hook it up the way
you need.
2) It lacks the skid ball, like the TruTrak Turn-n-bank has.
3) It costs much more than a Turn-N-Bank
4) While I can't argue that if you're climbing, you're not worried
about stalling your way to the ground, it really isn't true
attitude being displayed. The second you pitch up or down, it is,
but then it's a VSI. If you're looking for real attitude, then
that isn't going to give it to you. That said, it's still going
to give you tools to keep your butt alive, because if you're
not descending, you're not stalled out and headed for the ground,
either.
The thing is, for a strictly backup instrument, I found that since
my GNS480 was on my E-Bus, that I had TRK already, and you have
GPS altitude if you want. And of course you still have airspeed
to use as reference, and altimeter, so you know if you're
descending, or slowing in a stall. You just can't tell your
pitch attitude. But angle of the nose to the horizon isn't the
most important thing to know. Keeping the wings level is
super important though. So, considering how MUCH stuff you
have with a GPS+TNB+ASI+ALT, if you have all of those as
backups, the added value of some of the features the ADI has
gets to be less important. It's also a much longer instrument,
that I found just barely makes it from the front panel to the
subpanel. So from many perspectives, although I now own and
fly the ADI, I would have been just as happy with the TNB,
myself. If it had a skid ball, it would be a good improvement
too.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
William Curtis wrote:
> <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>
> I have. I had it in another aircraft as a temporary replacement for
> a "real" AI and it was definitely different. I never did get use to
> flying precisely by it as opposed to a real AI before I removed it
> (real AI was back from overhaul) but it has given me pause on using
> it in the RV-10. I think I will trade it in on my True Trak
> autopilot purchase and get a real electrically powered AI. Maybe it
> just required getting used to. While theoretically it offers the
> same information as a Turn coordinator plus vertical speed, I can fly
> with the turn coordinator much better than I can with the ADI. Over
> time maybe that would change. Results inconclusive but definitely
> not a slam dunk replacement.
>
> William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ "Be who you are and say what you
> feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't
> mind." -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>> Hi:
>>
>> I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator)
>> as a back-up for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears
>> it operates quite a bit differently than a standard attitude
>> indicator.
>>
>> Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your
>> thoughts on how it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like
>> flying it?? Do you think it is worth it?? Etc??
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Mark
>
________________________________ Message 23
____________________________________
Time: 04:52:54 PM PST US
From: "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
How many REALLY need 60 amps for their panel?? Just rhetorical question. I
don't see any problem using a 50-55amp
CB on a 60 amp alternator. Alternators are normally sized so that they
aren't called upon to produce more than 85 percent of their nominal rating.
So using a 50 amp CB would ensure you don't exceed 85% by very much.
On Jan 31, 2008 5:40 PM, William Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10.com> wrote:
>
> If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60
> amps from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
>
> I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect
> the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter
> contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit.
> You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main
> buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you still have
> "heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
>
> Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and
> then a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for
> certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery
> side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
> circuit breaker firewall forward.
>
> William
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
> and those who matter don't mind."
> -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips.
> If
> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This
> kept
> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
> alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
>
>
________________________________ Message 24
____________________________________
Time: 05:33:30 PM PST US
Subject: re: RV10-List: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker
From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
> Passing 'big' wires through the firewall bothers me and the fewer possibl
e makes me feel better. That is why I am considering possibly in front of
the firewall.=0A=0AIn the RV-10 with a rear mounted battery, you have
to pass at least ONE "big" wire through the firewall. Well ---correction,
I don't have ANY "big" wires going throught my firewall. I only have an 8
AWG wire from the alternator going through my firewall. Not even the main
battery to starter contactor cable. I use a thru bulkhead connector show o
n the attached picture. On the firewall side is attached the starter conta
ctor as shown. On the cabin side is attached the main battery cable and th
e (smaller) battery cable to the buss.=0A=0A=0AWilliam=0Ahttp:/
/wcurtis.nerv10.com/=0A"Be who you are and say what you feel because tho
se who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."=0A-- Dr. Sues
s =0A=0A
________________________________ Message 25
____________________________________
Time: 05:50:52 PM PST US
From: Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TruTrak ADI
The 3" version does have the ball. Just not enough room for it
according to TruTrak, I guess, on the 2" version.
We have used it alongside the Dynon for 430 hours in N256H. The only
time they didn't agree was when my dad picked up a little ice before
he had a heated pitot and lost attitude on the Dynon (which went
grayscale, fortunately, to let him know not to trust it), and when he
noticed that the ADI disagreed, he followed the ADI. It gets its
"attitude" stability from the pitot-static system, but if it loses
that it gets it from the internal GPS, which is a nice backup,
especially if you lose power and can't heat your pitot. He wasn't in
thick soup, but it would have saved his hide if he had been. By the
way, the next flight he had a heated pitot, if it helps those of you
on the fence in deciding whether or not to get one. He was in light
IFR and certainly didn't intend to get into icing, but it can happen.
The ADI is a fair bit cheaper than any electric AI that I have seen.
I agree with Tim that it is too bad to have to have a separate
antenna, but it is nice to have one instrument that is completely
independent of the rest of the system (if you have the backup battery).
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jan 31, 2008, at 7:47 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I'm inclined to sit squarely on the fence about the ADI. It's not
> a bad instrument, considering it gives you GPS track, and bank,
> and first instantaneous pitch indication....transitioning to
> more of a rate of climb. It also will warn you if your airspeed
> slows near stall, so it has that for safety too.
> So there is some good stuff there.
>
> But, then there are the downsides.
> 1) If you DO get it with the internal GPS, then you have another
> antenna to deal with. If you DO NOT, then it's really not going
> to give you much for GPS track unless you have it hooked to
> a GPS that will survive an electric-out situation in the panel
> anyway....so you may not actually get to use that TRK indication
> when you need it unless you're careful to hook it up the way
> you need.
>
> 2) It lacks the skid ball, like the TruTrak Turn-n-bank has.
>
> 3) It costs much more than a Turn-N-Bank
>
> 4) While I can't argue that if you're climbing, you're not worried
> about stalling your way to the ground, it really isn't true
> attitude being displayed. The second you pitch up or down, it is,
> but then it's a VSI. If you're looking for real attitude, then
> that isn't going to give it to you. That said, it's still going
> to give you tools to keep your butt alive, because if you're
> not descending, you're not stalled out and headed for the ground,
> either.
>
> The thing is, for a strictly backup instrument, I found that since
> my GNS480 was on my E-Bus, that I had TRK already, and you have
> GPS altitude if you want. And of course you still have airspeed
> to use as reference, and altimeter, so you know if you're
> descending, or slowing in a stall. You just can't tell your
> pitch attitude. But angle of the nose to the horizon isn't the
> most important thing to know. Keeping the wings level is
> super important though. So, considering how MUCH stuff you
> have with a GPS+TNB+ASI+ALT, if you have all of those as
> backups, the added value of some of the features the ADI has
> gets to be less important. It's also a much longer instrument,
> that I found just barely makes it from the front panel to the
> subpanel. So from many perspectives, although I now own and
> fly the ADI, I would have been just as happy with the TNB,
> myself. If it had a skid ball, it would be a good improvement
> too.
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> William Curtis wrote:
>> <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>> I have. I had it in another aircraft as a temporary replacement for
>> a "real" AI and it was definitely different. I never did get use to
>> flying precisely by it as opposed to a real AI before I removed it
>> (real AI was back from overhaul) but it has given me pause on using
>> it in the RV-10. I think I will trade it in on my True Trak
>> autopilot purchase and get a real electrically powered AI. Maybe it
>> just required getting used to. While theoretically it offers the
>> same information as a Turn coordinator plus vertical speed, I can fly
>> with the turn coordinator much better than I can with the ADI. Over
>> time maybe that would change. Results inconclusive but definitely
>> not a slam dunk replacement.
>> William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ "Be who you are and say what you
>> feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't
>> mind." -- Dr. Suess
>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Hi:
>>> I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator)
>>> as a back-up for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears
>>> it operates quite a bit differently than a standard attitude
>>> indicator.
>>> Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your
>>> thoughts on how it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like
>>> flying it?? Do you think it is worth it?? Etc??
>>> Thanks
>>> Mark
>
>
________________________________ Message 26
____________________________________
Time: 05:53:29 PM PST US
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
You have a point if you assume a traditional power distribution scheme.
With dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel, I opted for a more
reliable approach than that used in certified aircraft.
The issue of big wires through the firewall is really secondary.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60 amps
from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect
the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter
contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit.
You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main
buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you still have
"heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and then
a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for
certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery
side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
circuit breaker firewall forward.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips. If
the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This kept
all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
alternator.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
________________________________ Message 27
____________________________________
Time: 06:22:31 PM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker
From: "orchidman" <gary@wingscc.com>
[quote="wcurtis(at)nerv10.com"]
> I use a thru bulkhead connector show on the attached picture.
William,
Where did you source your connector?
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161735#161735
________________________________ Message 28
____________________________________
Time: 06:38:00 PM PST US
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
before you blow. A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
Tim
PJ Seipel wrote:
>
> Make sure you take a look at the data sheet for your breaker before you
> decide to upsize the number of amps too much. For example, the 30 amp
> Tyco breaker I'm using for my backup SD-20 alternator is rated such that
> it may take up to 1 hour at 145% or 43 amps before it trips. At 200%,
> i.e. 60 amps, it may still take up to 30 seconds to trip. If that
> breaker trips, then my alternator is definitely overloaded and I'd sure
> want to take a look at the problem before continuing on.
>
> PJ Seipel
> RV-10 #40032
>
> Carl Froehlich wrote:
>> <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>>
>> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious
>> trips. If
>> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
>> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
>> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This
>> kept
>> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
>> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
>> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
>> alternator.
>>
>> Carl Froehlich
>> RV-8A (375 hrs)
>> RV-10 (wings)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>>
>>
>> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
>> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
>> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place
>> the 60A
>> CB.
>> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash
>> to keep
>> the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the instrument
>> panel.
>>
>> --------
>> Gary Blankenbiller
>> RV10 - # 40674
>> Fuselage SB
>> (N410GB reserved)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 29
____________________________________
Time: 06:43:29 PM PST US
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>
> I have found a source for 60 & 70 amp CBs and yes they are very
> pricey but no fuseses that big was one of the primary reasons I have
> been thinking of going the CB route.
>
Just search for ANL online...they're all over in the card audio
type places. Nice ones, too, with gold plating and good
housings.
>
> Passing 'big' wires through the firewall bothers me and the fewer
> possible makes me feel better. That is why I am considering possibly
> in front of the firewall.
>
Yes, but the biggest, nastiest wire in your plane is the one
going from your battery forward. That battery can source hundreds
of amps, and it doesn't stop when the engine stops. People forget
that of the "big wires" they're worried about, some of those
are the biggest worry. Sooner or later you need to put that
power to the panel busses.....doesn't matter where it comes
in from.
>
> Do you have a good source for that big an ANL fuse? I have checked
> all my normal sources.
>
All over online. Even Ebay.
> -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 Fuselage SB (N410GB
> reserved)
Tim
________________________________ Message 30
____________________________________
Time: 07:21:11 PM PST US
From: Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
Don't forget that if you have to crank more than normal, or if
something has drawn your battery down a little, your alternator will
be charging your battery as well as powering everything in the plane,
which will take you over the current that you use continuously.
However, I agree that a 60A fuse on a 70A alternator is probably no
problem at all, and that if it blows in flight you probably won't want
to reset it, but (just thinking out loud) is it possible that the fuse
could blow and you not realize it, maybe thinking the alternator
itself is bad or the field circuit has failed? With a CB in sight
there is no question where the failure is.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jan 31, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
> alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
> my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
> avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
> wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
> the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
> before you blow. A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
> 60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
> want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
> That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
> Tim
>
>
> PJ Seipel wrote:
>> Make sure you take a look at the data sheet for your breaker before
>> you decide to upsize the number of amps too much. For example, the
>> 30 amp Tyco breaker I'm using for my backup SD-20 alternator is
>> rated such that it may take up to 1 hour at 145% or 43 amps before
>> it trips. At 200%, i.e. 60 amps, it may still take up to 30
>> seconds to trip. If that breaker trips, then my alternator is
>> definitely overloaded and I'd sure want to take a look at the
>> problem before continuing on.
>> PJ Seipel
>> RV-10 #40032
>> Carl Froehlich wrote:
>>> >
>>>
>>> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious
>>> trips. If
>>> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem,
>>> something you
>>> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the
>>> breaker. In my
>>> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall.
>>> This kept
>>> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for
>>> one
>>> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery
>>> install with
>>> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight
>>> without the
>>> alternator.
>>>
>>> Carl Froehlich
>>> RV-8A (375 hrs)
>>> RV-10 (wings)
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>>>
>>>
>>> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses
>>> and
>>> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
>>> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to
>>> place the 60A
>>> CB.
>>> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the
>>> dash to keep
>>> the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the
>>> instrument
>>> panel.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Gary Blankenbiller
>>> RV10 - # 40674
>>> Fuselage SB
>>> (N410GB reserved)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
________________________________ Message 31
____________________________________
Time: 07:57:09 PM PST US
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
OK, that answer prompts another question that is not rhetorical.
>I have a dual battery install with separate right/left busses that support
continued
IFR flight without the alternator.
Continued IFR without an alternator-- How is that possible? OK, maybe
possible,
but prudent?
I used the term traditional because there are many ways to put all the wires
together
to achieve the same ends. The certified aircraft to which I am referring
is the all electric dual battery, dual main, dual avionics buss Cirrus SR
series.
They used to have their POH on line that anyone could download which
detailed
the electrical system. I can't find it on their site anymore but I have
the SR22 POH in pdf if anyone is interested.
By all accounts, the Cirrus system is very good and reliable but I don't
think
even Cirrus will say you can continue IFR flight without the alternator.
And
the Cirrus engine is not dependant on the electrical system as your
electronic
ignition is. If you have a design that is more robust than the Cirrus, I
(and
I'm sure other builders) would be very interested in seeing it.
I apologize in advanced for the pointed questions, however as builders, I
think
we sometimes design pens that work in zero-g rather than just using a
pencil.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
>
> You have a point if you assume a traditional power distribution scheme.
> With dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel, I opted for a
more
> reliable approach than that used in certified aircraft.
>
> The issue of big wires through the firewall is really secondary.
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:40 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>
>
> If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60
amps
> from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
>
> I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect
> the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter
> contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit.
> You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main
> buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you still have
> "heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
>
> Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and
then
> a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for
> certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery
> side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
> circuit breaker firewall forward.
>
> William
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
> and those who matter don't mind."
> -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips.
If
> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This
kept
> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
> alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
________________________________ Message 32
____________________________________
Time: 08:19:44 PM PST US
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
Even with this non-time-delay ANL, here's an info sheet
that shows some details:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANL
_Specs.pdf
This is on a 50A ANL:
Notice you can pull over 200A, for 1 second, and can pull 100A+ for
basically at least 100 seconds, or possibly nearly an unlimited
amount of time. If you interpolate the graph, even the lowly 50A
ANL is likely going to stay running with no problem unless you
have some sort of hard fault. A dead battery will draw more power
from the alternator, but you really should be running your alternator
near 100% of capacity for much time. That's why I went with a 70A
alternator....slower turning, cooler running, and a larger margin
over the operating load.
I'm not too worried about losing the fuse and not knowing. It would
first be immediately noticeable on the voltmeter, as you won't
have a voltage anywhere NEAR 14v if you put a load on it and
don't have a working alternator, and I also have visual and
audio alerts for voltage, and can set them in the EIS for Amperage
too, since I have the hall-effect current sensor installed.
But again, with a load on a battery, your voltage will immediately
be in the 12's.....so setting a voltage alert for 13V or
even higher would give you an alert if you lost an alternator.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> Don't forget that if you have to crank more than normal, or if something
> has drawn your battery down a little, your alternator will be charging
> your battery as well as powering everything in the plane, which will
> take you over the current that you use continuously.
>
> However, I agree that a 60A fuse on a 70A alternator is probably no
> problem at all, and that if it blows in flight you probably won't want
> to reset it, but (just thinking out loud) is it possible that the fuse
> could blow and you not realize it, maybe thinking the alternator itself
> is bad or the field circuit has failed? With a CB in sight there is no
> question where the failure is.
>
> do not archive
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> On Jan 31, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
>> alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
>> my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
>> avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
>> wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
>> the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
>> before you blow. A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
>> 60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
>> want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
>> That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> PJ Seipel wrote:
>>> Make sure you take a look at the data sheet for your breaker before
>>> you decide to upsize the number of amps too much. For example, the
>>> 30 amp Tyco breaker I'm using for my backup SD-20 alternator is rated
>>> such that it may take up to 1 hour at 145% or 43 amps before it
>>> trips. At 200%, i.e. 60 amps, it may still take up to 30 seconds to
>>> trip. If that breaker trips, then my alternator is definitely
>>> overloaded and I'd sure want to take a look at the problem before
>>> continuing on.
>>> PJ Seipel
>>> RV-10 #40032
>>> Carl Froehlich wrote:
>>>> <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>>>>
>>>> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious
>>>> trips. If
>>>> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something
>>>> you
>>>> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker.
>>>> In my
>>>> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall.
>>>> This kept
>>>> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
>>>> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install
>>>> with
>>>> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without
>>>> the
>>>> alternator.
>>>>
>>>> Carl Froehlich
>>>> RV-8A (375 hrs)
>>>> RV-10 (wings)
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:08 PM
>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Examining other builders wiring diagrams, I am finding both fuses and
>>>> circuit breakers for the alternator output protection.
>>>> I am leaning to a CB but would like some input as to where to place
>>>> the 60A
>>>> CB.
>>>> Possible options would be forward of the firewall, or under the dash
>>>> to keep
>>>> the wires as short as possible, or normally positioned on the
>>>> instrument
>>>> panel.
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Gary Blankenbiller
>>>> RV10 - # 40674
>>>> Fuselage SB
>>>> (N410GB reserved)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161652#161652
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 33
____________________________________
Time: 08:50:18 PM PST US
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
From: "Patrick Pulis" <patrick.pulis@seagas.com.au>
William, the attachment supports your comments.
I have just completed an endorsement on the Cirrus SR-20 (need to fly
something similar until the ten is completed!) and I experienced an ALT2
failure last Sunday whilst VFR, so these things do happen and from what
I have been told are common.
Patrick
#40299 VH-XPP
Adelaide, South Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: William Curtis [mailto:wcurtis@nerv10.com]
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
OK, that answer prompts another question that is not rhetorical.
>I have a dual battery install with separate right/left busses that
support continued IFR flight without the alternator.
Continued IFR without an alternator-- How is that possible? OK, maybe
possible, but prudent?
I used the term traditional because there are many ways to put all the
wires together to achieve the same ends. The certified aircraft to
which I am referring is the all electric dual battery, dual main, dual
avionics buss Cirrus SR series. They used to have their POH on line
that anyone could download which detailed the electrical system. I
can't find it on their site anymore but I have the SR22 POH in pdf if
anyone is interested.
By all accounts, the Cirrus system is very good and reliable but I don't
think even Cirrus will say you can continue IFR flight without the
alternator. And the Cirrus engine is not dependant on the electrical
system as your electronic ignition is. If you have a design that is
more robust than the Cirrus, I (and I'm sure other builders) would be
very interested in seeing it.
I apologize in advanced for the pointed questions, however as builders,
I think we sometimes design pens that work in zero-g rather than just
using a pencil.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't
matter and those who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> --> <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> You have a point if you assume a traditional power distribution
scheme.
> With dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel, I opted for
> a more reliable approach than that used in certified aircraft.
>
> The issue of big wires through the firewall is really secondary.
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Curtis
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:40 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>
>
> If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60
> amps from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
>
> I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders
> connect the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the
> starter contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of
the cockpit.
> You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the
> main buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you
> still have "heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
>
> Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse)
> and then a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal
practice for
> certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the
battery
> side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
> circuit breaker firewall forward.
>
> William
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't
> matter and those who matter don't mind."
> -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich"
> > <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious
> trips. If the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem,
> something you might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting
> the breaker. In my RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of
> the firewall. This kept all the heavy wiring on the engine side of
> the firewall except for one penetration to the starter solenoid. I
> have a dual battery install with separate right/left busses that
> support continued IFR flight without the alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
________________________________ Message 34
____________________________________
Time: 11:10:40 PM PST US
From: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Costs of Flying in Europe
Jon,
there are several N registered plans flying in Europe so that might be
something to consider, you just need to get an approval from the LBA
(the German FAA) to fly your plane in Europe and you have to stick to
the US rules concerning inspection, insurance etc. (check with the FAA).
Just any landing/touch will cost you money and as Michael told fuel is
expensive!
BTW "Tankosh" is pretty much in between Munich and Michaels homtown Zurich!
Let us know if we can help more!
Werner
Jon Reining wrote:
>
> Michael and others,
>
> My wife and I are considering a job in Munich and Im wondering about the
costs
of flying in Europe. Last year we were all abuzz with the possibility of
user
fees and a system similar to that in Europe. Many articles said it was
expensive,
but how much? I'm sure they were trying to use the worst case scenario
to get us to oppose user fees (don't worry, I oppose) but what is the
reality?
>
> I went online and looked up a couple of aeroclubs in Munich with their own
strips
one close to downtown the other further out.
>
> Say you just want to go out for:
> A couple of touch and gos
> Take up a couple friends for a sight seeing flight around town
> Fly about 45 minutes to your favorite lunch spot
> Fly from Munich to Rome to visit the in-laws
>
> Roughly how much would each of these scenarios cost if flown VFR only?
Can you
fly VFR only? Does it make sense to ship over the Citabria? I'm guessing
it would have to go though a German registration process - how onerous is
that?
(My guess is sell the Citabria and buy something else already registered in
Germany once there.)
>
> Thanks for any help!
> Jon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161582#161582
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 35
____________________________________
Time: 11:41:56 PM PST US
From: "sam@fr8dog.net" <sam.marlow@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TruTrak ADI
We have one in our RV10, I wouldn't do it again, it's difficult to use, in
hard
IFR.
Sam Marlow
---- FLAGSTONE <flagstone@cox.net> wrote:
===========
Hi:
I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator) as a
back-up
for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears it operates quite a
bit
differently than a standard attitude indicator.
Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your thoughts on
how
it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like flying it?? Do you think it
is
worth it?? Etc??
Thanks
Mark
9:09 AM
9:59 AM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Two different ways of saying the same thing. Sizing fuse/CB to max load you
wish to allow, should be the same or less than max load the wire can carry.
Nothing wrong with being more conservative than what 43.13 says the wire
will carry, in picking your CB/fuse size.
On Feb 1, 2008 7:30 AM, linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
> >
> > That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
> > alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
> > my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
> > avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
> > wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
> > the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
> > before you blow.
>
> Not really true. The size of the breaker is there to protect the wire,
> which could cause a fire if it gets a large escess of current. The size
> of the wire is dictated by the load. True of small wires and big ones
> too.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Yes, that's true too. So basically:
1. You pick your alternator to fit your load. Plan for
perhaps 15-20% over capacity as a minimum, so that
you never work your alternator at 100%
2. You pick your wire size that will handle the load that
your alternator can provide, again, err'ing on
the high side so if you have a 70A alternator, make
sure your wire can handle > 69.999A as a minimum...and
you can use larger wire if you wish.
3. You pick your fuse to protect your wire and blow if too
much current is flowing either into or out of the
alternator lead. (Shorts can happen anywhere) But,
you can always choose to put a smaller fuse in, if
all the rest is kept in spec. You may be wasting
the possible capacity (i.e. you're paying for a 70A
alternator but you're giving up some capacity if you
plan it as a 60A system) but there is nothing wrong
with looking at your loads and putting a safe undersized
fuse in there.
You may not KNOW what your actual common max operating draw will
turn out to be, to within an amp or two, until you first fly, but
at that point, if you want to protect against drawing far in
excess of what is required, you can put in an appropriately
sized fuse.
In my case, I have a 70A alternator, chosen for it's lower turning
speed, and cooler operation, and plenty of capacity beyond my
requirements. I sized the wire to handle 70A from the alternator,
and used #2 back to the battery from the solenoid. Then, I stuck
in a 60A fuse. After running the plane, I find that my norm is
to pull maybe 30-36A, and 40-42A with everything on. Yeah,
during a low battery event I may pull a little more for a couple
minutes, tapering off quickly as it charges. But, 60A would be
a huge increase in current, so if I saw 60A, I would start
wondering what the heck was going wrong. Add in the slow blow
time to blow that 60A ANL, and the fact that it can handle
surges beyond 60A for a period of time, and there's no reason for
me to put greater than a 60A fuse in there. I could even go
with less if I wanted. In 320+ hours, I haven't had a nuisance
trip of any fuse or breaker in the plane, except for my HID's
initially....because you need to size the fuse on those to handle
the startup inrush current that tapers off.
So you're right, you want to protect the wire, but you can
always undersize your fuse to a reasonable point that it would
blow if you had a current draw that was indicative of a
serious issue. You could wire your LED lights with 12GA if
you really wanted to....but you still would want a small fuse
on them, because if your LED's are drawing 10A, something
is wrong.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
linn Walters wrote:
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
>> alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
>> my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
>> avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
>> wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
>> the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
>> before you blow.
>
> Not really true. The size of the breaker is there to protect the wire,
> which could cause a fire if it gets a large escess of current. The size
> of the wire is dictated by the load. True of small wires and big ones too.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
>> A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
>> 60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
>> want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
>> That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
>> Tim
>
Message 6
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One thing as an aside....
The ADI operates very much like a "flight path marker" like
is used on my Chelton. However, my Chelton displays true
pitch angle for the horizon display, so in that regards you're
getting the best of all worlds with the Chelton display, whereas
the ADI you're correct, could get confusing because you're
not seeing the big picture.
Now, as a bit of trivia.... The TruTrak EFIS is built to
operate exactly like the ADI. It uses the same non-gyro
operation as the ADI, and also does not use any magnetic heading
sensor whatsoever. It relies solely on GPS TRK to give heading.
And, while it gives a quick instantaneous pitch display, it
transitions more to a VSI based display over time.
So basically, if you love the ADI, you may like the EFIS, but
if you have a philosophical disagreement with one of them,
the other will cause you the same. It's the fact that there
is no magnetic heading on it at all that threw me for a big
loop. I understand that the world can work well with just
a good TRK reading, but you can't count on GPS to be 100%.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Barrett wrote:
>
> Hello Mark et al,
>
> I'm a lurker on your site and thought I'd chime in with an opinion. I am
> nearly finished with my Lancair IVP and strongly considered the ADI by Tru
> Trak until I understood how it works. My plane will be all electric with 2
> screen Chelton MFD panels and the ADI could have conceivably doubled for a
> couple of back up steam gauges. That was an exciting concept.
>
> The deciding factor was that because of the VSI input mimicking attitude
> function, I felt that the display could be very confusing and disorienting
> in the very spot where I would need it the most to survive a total failure
> of the MFD system. I think it would take a complete retraining in order to
> safely fly a high performance airplane in emergency conditions and I would
> have to maintain proficiency in that retraining. For almost 50 years I've
> been used to knowing exactly what an AI instrument is telling me and I'm not
> comfortable with a gauge that looks like an AI but really isn't.
>
> For that reason I reluctantly passed and accepted the standard 2" 6 pack for
> "save my butt" backup. By the way I am a complete rah rah fan of the Tru
> Trak autopilot and the folks who came up with it. I purchased what turned
> out to be prototype servos when the company started and they graciously
> replaced them shortly afterwards when they found they needed more robust
> ones for the IVP. Good guys and brilliant visionaries.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> John Barrett, CEO
> Barrett/Garrett Enterprises, Inc.
> PO Box 428
> Port Hadlock, WA 98339
> www.carbinge.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi:
>
> I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (Attitude Direction Indicator) as a
> back-up
> for my panel. I was reading the manual and it appears it operates quite a
> bit
> differently than a standard attitude indicator.
>
> Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you describe your thoughts on
> how
> it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like flying it?? Do you think it
> is
> worth it?? Etc??
>
> Thanks
>
> Mark
>
Message 7
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Has anyone though of using or had any experience with the Egyro http://www.
pcflightsystems.com/EGYRO2.htm ? Aviation consumer did a review on it a few
years ago and liked it, but I haven't heard much feedback on it.
Vern (#324 windows)
> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 02:35:57 -0500> From: sam.marlow@adelphia.net> To:
rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TruTrak ADI> > --> RV10-Li
st message posted by: "sam@fr8dog.net" <sam.marlow@adelphia.net>> > We have
one in our RV10, I wouldn't do it again, it's difficult to use, in hard IF
R.> Sam Marlow> ---- FLAGSTONE <flagstone@cox.net> wrote: > > ====
=========> Hi:> > I've been looking at the TruTrak ADI (A
ttitude Direction Indicator) as a back-up for my panel. I was reading the m
anual and it appears it operates quite a bit differently than a standard at
titude indicator.> > Has anyone flown with the TruTrak ADI? Could you descr
ibe your thoughts on how it flew compared to a standard AI?? Did you like f
========================> _
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.-You IM, we g
ive.
Message 8
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A very probable reason for the abundance of the C4B5 is shear numbers.
The most built aircraft with this engine is the Aztec. There are over
2400 Aztecs registered (and they each have two engines).
The D4A5 was in the Comanche 260. There are only 700 of them registered.
Hmmm.
I try to get the best ones, overhaul them, and recertify them, and sell
them. Either makes a good choice.
Tom
970-420-1798
Message 9
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| Subject: | Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see the
first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my question.
Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions for priming the
inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked through the archives
I found little in the way of recommendations. Is there a primer system that
is better suited than the others that the group has some agreement on based
upon ease of preparation and application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
http://tinyurl.com/2ew2k5
http://tinyurl.com/2gwsn6
under $18
The 2202 red unit offers the same 5/16" size stud diameter as the starter and
starter contacter. I had bought another one that was a bit smaller however it
had 3/8" stud size. I wanted to keep the terminal stud sizes consistent.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
-------- Original Message --------
>RV10-List message posted by: "orchidman" <gary@wingscc.com>
William,
Where did you source your connector?
Message 11
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| Subject: | Ammeter Location |
This brings up another issue. Where are people putting their ammeter
shunts? You can measure how much is coming out of or going into the
battery, how much the alternator is putting out, or how much your
system is drawing, depending on where you put it.
I have been putting it between the starter solenoid and the bus, and I
connect the alternator to the bus side, so basically it is reading
what is happening to the battery, whether charging or discharging,
except, of course, when cranking. Now with the VP, since it tells me
how much power the system is using at any given time, I have put it
between the alternator and the system, so I know how much the
alternator is putting out.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Feb 1, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> Yes, that's true too. So basically:
>
> 1. You pick your alternator to fit your load. Plan for
> perhaps 15-20% over capacity as a minimum, so that
> you never work your alternator at 100%
>
> 2. You pick your wire size that will handle the load that
> your alternator can provide, again, err'ing on
> the high side so if you have a 70A alternator, make
> sure your wire can handle > 69.999A as a minimum...and
> you can use larger wire if you wish.
>
> 3. You pick your fuse to protect your wire and blow if too
> much current is flowing either into or out of the
> alternator lead. (Shorts can happen anywhere) But,
> you can always choose to put a smaller fuse in, if
> all the rest is kept in spec. You may be wasting
> the possible capacity (i.e. you're paying for a 70A
> alternator but you're giving up some capacity if you
> plan it as a 60A system) but there is nothing wrong
> with looking at your loads and putting a safe undersized
> fuse in there.
>
> You may not KNOW what your actual common max operating draw will
> turn out to be, to within an amp or two, until you first fly, but
> at that point, if you want to protect against drawing far in
> excess of what is required, you can put in an appropriately
> sized fuse.
>
> In my case, I have a 70A alternator, chosen for it's lower turning
> speed, and cooler operation, and plenty of capacity beyond my
> requirements. I sized the wire to handle 70A from the alternator,
> and used #2 back to the battery from the solenoid. Then, I stuck
> in a 60A fuse. After running the plane, I find that my norm is
> to pull maybe 30-36A, and 40-42A with everything on. Yeah,
> during a low battery event I may pull a little more for a couple
> minutes, tapering off quickly as it charges. But, 60A would be
> a huge increase in current, so if I saw 60A, I would start
> wondering what the heck was going wrong. Add in the slow blow
> time to blow that 60A ANL, and the fact that it can handle
> surges beyond 60A for a period of time, and there's no reason for
> me to put greater than a 60A fuse in there. I could even go
> with less if I wanted. In 320+ hours, I haven't had a nuisance
> trip of any fuse or breaker in the plane, except for my HID's
> initially....because you need to size the fuse on those to handle
> the startup inrush current that tapers off.
>
> So you're right, you want to protect the wire, but you can
> always undersize your fuse to a reasonable point that it would
> blow if you had a current draw that was indicative of a
> serious issue. You could wire your LED lights with 12GA if
> you really wanted to....but you still would want a small fuse
> on them, because if your LED's are drawing 10A, something
> is wrong.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> linn Walters wrote:
>> >
>> Tim Olson wrote:
>>>
>>> That's exactly my reasoning on using a 60A fuse (despite my 70A
>>> alternator). The fact is, if I find myself drawing 60A off
>>> my alternator, something is not right at all. None of my
>>> avionics or equipment can draw that much, so my battery or
>>> wires are shorted or something. You don't size your fuse by
>>> the alternator, you size it to the max load you care to see
>>> before you blow.
>> Not really true. The size of the breaker is there to protect the
>> wire, which could cause a fire if it gets a large escess of
>> current. The size of the wire is dictated by the load. True of
>> small wires and big ones too.
>> Linn
>> do not archive
>>> A 60A ANL fuse won't blow until well over
>>> 60A anyway, so if that baby blows, I sure as heck don't
>>> want to push a reset button in flight and figure it out.
>>> That fuse/breaker is a very big problem indicator.
>>> Tim
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
Primer war coming right up. I can't imagine there isn't much in the
archives, because there have been so many posts regarding primers in
the past. Now people shy away from primer e-mails like the plague.
In short, there is no agreement as a group as to whether or not to
prime, whether or not to alodine, and what primer to use if you are
going to prime.
I have used several primers and am happiest with the Akzo Nobel apoxy
primer that Spruce sells. It is tough as nails when it cures. A lot
of people are quite happy with rattle cans of self-etching primer they
get at Sherwin Williams or your local Auto Parts store. Others won't
prime because the aluminum has the alclad surface. It's all up to you.
The Akzo Nobel stuff is probably one of the more complicated to apply,
since it requires mixing and a spray gun, whereas the rattle can you
just shake and apply. With primer that you have to mix, you will want
to prepare as many parts as you can and then prime them at once,
making sure that you mark them well so as not to confuse which part
goes where.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:07 AM, Chuck Henry wrote:
> I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did
> see the first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about
> my question. Section 5A of our builder=92s manual has several
> suggestions for priming the inside parts of the aircraft
> structures. When I looked through the archives I found little in
> the way of recommendations. Is there a primer system that is better
> suited than the others that the group has some agreement on based
> upon ease of preparation and application, better protection and costs?
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck Henry
> #40806 ' Vertical Stabilizer
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
and so the primer war begins!
Chuck- look through the archives and www.vansairforce.net forums for
everyone's opinion on primers. I can tell you that the easiest for me
was the Sherwin Williams DTM wash primer. It has worked well for me as
it does not require any mixing and it is water soluble so less toxic
with soap and water clean-up.
There are more durable 2 part primers but I didn't want that hassle.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Henry
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:07 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see
the first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my
question. Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions
for priming the inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked
through the archives I found little in the way of recommendations. Is
there a primer system that is better suited than the others that the
group has some agreement on based upon ease of preparation and
application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
I'd answer, but Jesse said exactly what I'd say. No wars from
me on this one.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Jesse Saint wrote:
> Primer war coming right up. I can't imagine there isn't much in the
> archives, because there have been so many posts regarding primers in the
> past. Now people shy away from primer e-mails like the plague.
>
> In short, there is no agreement as a group as to whether or not to
> prime, whether or not to alodine, and what primer to use if you are
> going to prime.
>
> I have used several primers and am happiest with the Akzo Nobel apoxy
> primer that Spruce sells. It is tough as nails when it cures. A lot of
> people are quite happy with rattle cans of self-etching primer they get
> at Sherwin Williams or your local Auto Parts store. Others won't prime
> because the aluminum has the alclad surface. It's all up to you.
>
> The Akzo Nobel stuff is probably one of the more complicated to apply,
> since it requires mixing and a spray gun, whereas the rattle can you
> just shake and apply. With primer that you have to mix, you will want
> to prepare as many parts as you can and then prime them at once, making
> sure that you mark them well so as not to confuse which part goes where.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:07 AM, Chuck Henry wrote:
>
>> I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see
>> the first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my
>> question. Section 5A of our builders manual has several suggestions
>> for priming the inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I
>> looked through the archives I found little in the way of
>> recommendations. Is there a primer system that is better suited than
>> the others that the group has some agreement on based upon ease of
>> preparation and application, better protection and costs?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chuck Henry
>> #40806 Vertical Stabilizer
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com
>> style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 15
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| Subject: | Ammeter Location |
The ammeter shunt in the path from the battery to the buss is known as Battery
Lead mode. This would be my preferred way to install the ammeter as it allows
you to see how much current you are consuming when the alternator is OFF LINE.
When the alternator is functioning normally, it shows how much current is being
used to charge the battery. This mode is typically used in Cessnas.
The other way of wiring the ammeter is in Alternator Lead mode. That is, it is
in the path between the alternator and the buss. This mode will show how much
current is being produced by the alternator. In an alternator failure it would
just read zero. This is mode typically used in Pipers.
The stand alone ammeter instruments allows either mode but some EFIS restrict you
to one mode or another. I know AFS for example only supports Alternator Lead
mode. Dynon supports both modes, I'm not sure what Chelton, or GRT, supports.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
> -- RV10-List message posted by: Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
This brings up another issue. Where are people putting their ammeter
shunts? You can measure how much is coming out of or going into the
battery, how much the alternator is putting out, or how much your
system is drawing, depending on where you put it.
I have been putting it between the starter solenoid and the bus, and I
connect the alternator to the bus side, so basically it is reading
what is happening to the battery, whether charging or discharging,
except, of course, when cranking. Now with the VP, since it tells me
how much power the system is using at any given time, I have put it
between the alternator and the system, so I know how much the
alternator is putting out.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
Ugh, didn't mean to start something bad. I did find some information on the
vansairforce website which provided some direction. Thanks for the
suggestions.
Chuck
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
and so the primer war begins!
Chuck- look through the archives and www.vansairforce.net forums for
everyone's opinion on primers. I can tell you that the easiest for me was
the Sherwin Williams DTM wash primer. It has worked well for me as it does
not require any mixing and it is water soluble so less toxic with soap and
water clean-up.
There are more durable 2 part primers but I didn't want that hassle.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Henry <mailto:cchenry01@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:07 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see the
first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my question.
Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions for priming the
inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked through the archives
I found little in the way of recommendations. Is there a primer system that
is better suited than the others that the group has some agreement on based
upon ease of preparation and application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 17
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| Subject: | Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
And if you don't find any other notes on it - take a look at Stewart Systems
Ecko Etch and Sealer/Primer - water borne, easy cleanup. So far I'm very
pleased with it.
g
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Henry
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
Ugh, didn't mean to start something bad. I did find some information on the
vansairforce website which provided some direction. Thanks for the
suggestions.
Chuck
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
and so the primer war begins!
Chuck- look through the archives and www.vansairforce.net forums for
everyone's opinion on primers. I can tell you that the easiest for me was
the Sherwin Williams DTM wash primer. It has worked well for me as it does
not require any mixing and it is water soluble so less toxic with soap and
water clean-up.
There are more durable 2 part primers but I didn't want that hassle.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck <mailto:cchenry01@hotmail.com> Henry
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:07 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see the
first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my question.
Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions for priming the
inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked through the archives
I found little in the way of recommendations. Is there a primer system that
is better suited than the others that the group has some agreement on based
upon ease of preparation and application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
Chuck
Welcome!
You didn't say anything bad. What no one will tell you is that the absolutely best
way to prime is to first <(*%@%)*&%$@#&^*&%*&%&&878G&^&*&6 a portion of this
message was lost in transmission ---- thereby giving really great resuls.
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643
C-GCWZ reserved
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Henry <cchenry01@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
> Ugh, didn't mean to start something bad. I did find some
> information on the
> vansairforce website which provided some direction. Thanks
> for the
> suggestions.
>
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:51 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
>
>
>
> and so the primer war begins!
>
> Chuck- look through the archives and www.vansairforce.net forums for
> everyone's opinion on primers. I can tell you that the easiest
> for me was
> the Sherwin Williams DTM wash primer. It has worked well for me
> as it does
> not require any mixing and it is water soluble so less toxic
> with soap and
> water clean-up.
>
> There are more durable 2 part primers but I didn't want that hassle.
>
> Pascal
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Chuck Henry <mailto:cchenry01@hotmail.com>
>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:07 AM
>
> Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
>
>
>
> I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement.
> I did see the
> first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my
> question.Section 5A of our builder's manual has several
> suggestions for priming the
> inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked
> through the archives
> I found little in the way of recommendations. Is there a
> primer system that
> is better suited than the others that the group has some
> agreement on based
> upon ease of preparation and application, better protection and costs?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chuck Henry
>
> #40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
>
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
As this can be a volatile topic, this is not a suggestion but just a
description of what I did.
I used the Akzo 2-part epoxy primer on all interior surfaces (excluding
those which would receive the final interior paint). I didn't use it
because I consider priming a necessity, but because I really like the
material. It is fantastic stuff. I started to also Alodine parts in the
beginning but ended up abandoning that by the end of the Horizontal Stab in
favor of just a simple application of Akzo.
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715 / N690CT
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Henry
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:08 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see the
first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my question.
Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions for priming the
inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked through the archives
I found little in the way of recommendations. Is there a primer system that
is better suited than the others that the group has some agreement on based
upon ease of preparation and application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
I'm from the school of "I'll only prime something if I absolutely
have to." So, I'm only priming the steel parts, spot priming
scratched Alclad with rattle can Zinc Chromate and plan on a shot of
Corrosion X when all is said and done.
That said, I would like to pose a question to those now flying. Have
you found any areas where moisture does accumulate without a quick
means of either draining or evaporating? I remember when I was
working on an RV-6 that most everyone drilled a small hole in the
lowest spot on the tail to allow for drainage of water that
accumulated there.
If there are areas where water collects, I'll want to spot prime them
before I really button things up
Jeff Carpenter
40304
N410CF Reserved
Almost through The Dreaded Section 29
Finish Kit on order
On Feb 1, 2008, at 8:07 AM, Chuck Henry wrote:
> I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did
> see the first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about
> my question. Section 5A of our builder=92s manual has several
> suggestions for priming the inside parts of the aircraft
> structures. When I looked through the archives I found little in
> the way of recommendations. Is there a primer system that is
> better suited than the others that the group has some agreement on
> based upon ease of preparation and application, better protection
> and costs?
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck Henry
> #40806 ' Vertical Stabilizer
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
Surface and corrosion treatments are separate from primers and sealers.
The wars begin because people are passionate about there choice.
Understanding why some builders would pursue alodine, or anodizing then
grasping the difference with wash primers, etching primers, sealers and
2 part epoxy are each important steps in the journey. Understand why
and where some builders apply proseal to fayed joints and trailing edge
attachments.
The final topcoat selection should always drive the type of primer (Read
Kitplanes - March 2008, Page 45). Quality preparation is critical to a
lasting topcoat bond. Knowing the thickness of Alclad on the outermost
skin and the effort with scotchbrite or sandpaper which removes it can
help in choosing products. Many builders can blast right through the
Alclad and down to the base without knowing that thickness.
Choose Wisely. Knowledge is not a bad thing. Some paint decisions are
made on price or ease of application alone.
John Cox
#40600
Do not Archive cause few take the
time to read old posts
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Henry
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
Ugh, didn't mean to start something bad. I did find some information on
the vansairforce website which provided some direction. Thanks for the
suggestions.
Chuck
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
and so the primer war begins!
Chuck- look through the archives and www.vansairforce.net forums for
everyone's opinion on primers. I can tell you that the easiest for me
was the Sherwin Williams DTM wash primer. It has worked well for me as
it does not require any mixing and it is water soluble so less toxic
with soap and water clean-up.
There are more durable 2 part primers but I didn't want that hassle.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Henry <mailto:cchenry01@hotmail.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:07 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I
did see the first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about
my question. Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions
for priming the inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked
through the archives I found little in the way of recommendations. Is
there a primer system that is better suited than the others that the
group has some agreement on based upon ease of preparation and
application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
B&C Specialty Products is one source. See link below.
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218#c905-100Ve
rn Smith (#324 windows)do not archive
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker> From: gary@wingscc.co
m> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:01:15 -0800> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> > --
ave a good source for that big an ANL fuse? I have checked all my normal so
urces.> > --------> Gary Blankenbiller> RV10 - # 40674> Fuselage SB> (N410G
B reserved)> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronic
================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts!-Play the word scramble challenge with sta
r power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja
n
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
Welcome aboard Chuck. You probably have no idea what you just stepped
on (re primers that is). There are as many different opinions as there
are builders.... are you belt, suspender, or belt and suspender guy?
Low rider perhaps? Sorry.
Anyway, I used the same stuff that Vans uses on the QB kit - Sherwin
Williams Wash Primer. I have no experience to base that on, just
selected one from the many options that should be well documented in the
archives.
One point most agree with; Vans is pretty much agnostic as far as prime.
No primer is required for the most part from there point of view. But
where they 'suggest' priming in the plans, it's probably a good idea to
definitely prime those (few) parts.
I look back at 1.5 years and marvel at all the energy I put into primer
research. I'm pretty confident that any of the approaches taken is
sound.
Enjoy!
Bill Watson
40605
Durham NC
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Henry
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see
the first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my
question. Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions
for priming the inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked
through the archives I found little in the way of recommendations. Is
there a primer system that is better suited than the others that the
group has some agreement on based upon ease of preparation and
application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
Message 24
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| Subject: | Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
I like Akzo Premier from Aircraft Spruce. It's easy to mix (1:1) and has
proven very durable.
Steve Mills N750SM (reserved)
RV-10 40486 Slow-build Eggenfellner E-6TI
Naperville, Illinois
Finishing kit, engine install
Do Not Archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Henry
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:08 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see the
first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my question.
Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions for priming the
inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked through the archives
I found little in the way of recommendations. Is there a primer system that
is better suited than the others that the group has some agreement on based
upon ease of preparation and application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
I'm not seeing any areas of water collecting at all.
But, I have seen others who haven't sealed their rudder
lower fairing fully end up with a rudder fairing full of
water. So, I drilled a hole there preemptively.
Other than that, dry as a bone for me.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
> That said, I would like to pose a question to those now flying. Have
> you found any areas where moisture does accumulate without a quick means
> of either draining or evaporating? I remember when I was working on an
> RV-6 that most everyone drilled a small hole in the lowest spot on the
> tail to allow for drainage of water that accumulated there.
>
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> N410CF Reserved
> Almost through The Dreaded Section 29
> Finish Kit on order
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
A 1968 Cessna (some like to reference them), which I completed an Annual
on had a draining hole that was plugged from organics. Upon cleaning,
the water removed exceeded a gallon and a half. No it was not an
amphibian which by the way usually does get alodining during assembly.
Tail draggers (Conventional Geared) know the results of condensation. A
wood propeller left in a vertical rather than horizontal position can
get the same response - Condensate flow.
I am from the school that reading the AC43.13 (which is only advisory)
can enlighten this subject. Seeing the insulation that we remove from
our airline fleet (each 5500 hours or once a year) then dealing with the
corrosion has given me an enhanced opinion on surface preparation and
corrosion control.
Once corrosion begins, it is a bear to stop and remediate. Removing and
re-skinning aircraft should be left for WWII warbirds. For most RV
builders, they will never see their choice not to do corrosion control
and just build it. Flying for decades can be done with either course.
YMMV.
Do it once... do it Right is my mantra. I go nuts doing things twice
(or more) and enough of you know I am nuts.
John Cox
Do not Archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Carpenter
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I'm from the school of "I'll only prime something if I absolutely have
to." So, I'm only priming the steel parts, spot priming scratched
Alclad with rattle can Zinc Chromate and plan on a shot of Corrosion X
when all is said and done.
That said, I would like to pose a question to those now flying. Have
you found any areas where moisture does accumulate without a quick means
of either draining or evaporating? I remember when I was working on an
RV-6 that most everyone drilled a small hole in the lowest spot on the
tail to allow for drainage of water that accumulated there.
If there are areas where water collects, I'll want to spot prime them
before I really button things up
Jeff Carpenter
40304
N410CF Reserved
Almost through The Dreaded Section 29
Finish Kit on order
On Feb 1, 2008, at 8:07 AM, Chuck Henry wrote:
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did see
the first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my
question. Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions
for priming the inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked
through the archives I found little in the way of recommendations. Is
there a primer system that is better suited than the others that the
group has some agreement on based upon ease of preparation and
application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
http://forums.matronics.com
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
planesmith(at)hotmail.com wrote:
> B&C Specialty Products is one source. See link below.
>
> http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218#c905-100 (http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218#c905-100)
>
> Vern Smith (#324 windows)
>
Vern and all,
Thanks,
I found a source from Tim's post from AeroElectric. Googling the base # I found www.drillspot.com. They have the base and a 50 amp fuse.
Your link to www.bandc.biz has a better price by a couple dollars but they don't stock the 50 amp. So more thinking will be in order.
Williams link to fisheriessupply.com is a great link to the Feed Through Terminals.
Now I will start looking for the Shotkey diodes. A quick look at the BandC site
looks like they have a 15 amp-25 amp max version for $7 or $18 with a heat sink.
With all of your help, it looks like I am starting to nail down the various small
items that complete the wiring diagrams.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161915#161915
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
Yeah, you definitely want a hole in the front bottom of the rudder
bottom fairing. There is no way to keep the water out of it. I also
have not seen any points of accumulation, although the places that
could fit the bill for getting moist and not drying are probably not
places easy to check. For what it's worth, I don't leave a single
metal part of this plane unprimed.
I think the plans specifically say to prime inside and outside of all
control tubes, as well as to prime all places on the wing spar where
there is removal of the anodized surface, like where they are
countersunk for the tank attach screw dimples. I don't remember where
else, but I agree that everything steel should be either powder
coated, greased or primed, depending on where it is and what its
function is.
So far this has been the most friendly primer war I have seen. I
think since so many of us have been through it before and know how
ugly it can get. Remember when the discussion of Inodyne was going
on? Those were the days (the bad old days).
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I'm not seeing any areas of water collecting at all.
> But, I have seen others who haven't sealed their rudder
> lower fairing fully end up with a rudder fairing full of
> water. So, I drilled a hole there preemptively.
> Other than that, dry as a bone for me.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
>> That said, I would like to pose a question to those now flying.
>> Have you found any areas where moisture does accumulate without a
>> quick means of either draining or evaporating? I remember when I
>> was working on an RV-6 that most everyone drilled a small hole in
>> the lowest spot on the tail to allow for drainage of water that
>> accumulated there.
>
>> Jeff Carpenter
>> 40304
>> N410CF Reserved
>> Almost through The Dreaded Section 29
>> Finish Kit on order
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
I do like the schottky diodes for going to an aux. Mainly because
the voltage drop is smaller than the other standard diodes, and
you'll never get a full charge on a battery if you're constantly
feeding it .7V less than optimal. The schottky for me was a
little harder to mount, but it was worth it for what it offers.
The reason it was tougher was that the base is one of the
contact surfaces, hence you need to insulate it from the airframe.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
orchidman wrote:
>
>
> planesmith(at)hotmail.com wrote:
>> B&C Specialty Products is one source. See link below.
>>
>> http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218#c905-100 (http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218#c905-100)
>>
>> Vern Smith (#324 windows)
>>
>
> Vern and all,
> Thanks,
> I found a source from Tim's post from AeroElectric. Googling the base # I found www.drillspot.com. They have the base and a 50 amp fuse.
> Your link to www.bandc.biz has a better price by a couple dollars but they don't stock the 50 amp. So more thinking will be in order.
>
> Williams link to fisheriessupply.com is a great link to the Feed Through Terminals.
>
> Now I will start looking for the Shotkey diodes. A quick look at the BandC site
looks like they have a 15 amp-25 amp max version for $7 or $18 with a heat
sink.
> With all of your help, it looks like I am starting to nail down the various
small items that complete the wiring diagrams.
>
> --------
> Gary Blankenbiller
> RV10 - # 40674
> Fuselage SB
> (N410GB reserved)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161915#161915
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
I think Tim hit the nail on the head. One possible source is:
http://www.periheliondesign.com/ (then click on the power schottky link)
They also offer a heat sink and insulator.
Vern (#324 windows)do not archive
> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:59:20 -0600> From: Tim@MyRV10.com> To: rv10-list
@matronics.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker> > -
schottky diodes for going to an aux. Mainly because> the voltage drop is s
maller than the other standard diodes, and> you'll never get a full charge
on a battery if you're constantly> feeding it .7V less than optimal. The sc
hottky for me was a> little harder to mount, but it was worth it for what i
t offers.> The reason it was tougher was that the base is one of the> conta
ct surfaces, hence you need to insulate it from the airframe.> > Tim Olson
- RV-10 N104CD - Flying> do not archive> > > orchidman wrote:> > --> RV10-L
ist message posted by: "orchidman" <gary@wingscc.com>> > > > > > planesmith
(at)hotmail.com wrote:> >> B&C Specialty Products is one source. See link b
elow. > >> > >> http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X3
58218#c905-100 (http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X3
58218#c905-100)> >>> >> Vern Smith (#324 windows)> >>> > > > Vern and all,>
> Thanks,> > I found a source from Tim's post from AeroElectric. Googling
the base # I found www.drillspot.com. They have the base and a 50 amp fuse.
> > Your link to www.bandc.biz has a better price by a couple dollars but t
hey don't stock the 50 amp. So more thinking will be in order.> > > > Willi
ams link to fisheriessupply.com is a great link to the Feed Through Termina
ls. > > > > Now I will start looking for the Shotkey diodes. A quick look a
t the BandC site looks like they have a 15 amp-25 amp max version for $7 or
$18 with a heat sink.> > With all of your help, it looks like I am startin
g to nail down the various small items that complete the wiring diagrams.>
> > > --------> > Gary Blankenbiller> > RV10 - # 40674> > Fuselage SB> > (N
410GB reserved)> > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here:> > > > http
://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161915#161915> > > > > > > > > >
======> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo
ur "fix".
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
> Now I will start looking for the Shotkey diodes. A quick look at the BandC site
looks like they have a 15 amp-25 amp max version for $7 or $18 with a heat
sink.
With all of your help, it looks like I am starting to nail down the various small
items that complete the wiring diagrams.
The B&C diode is not a schottky diode but a bridge rectifier and has a rather large
forward voltage of about 1 volt. A true schottky diode will have a max forward
voltage drop of about .5 volts, but as low as .1 volts.
Here is a 60A Schottky for $30.
http://www.periheliondesign.com/powerschottkydiodes.htm
Radio shack 25A rectifier $3.29
<http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62584&cp=&pg=1&sr=1&origkw=diode&kw=diode&parentPage=search>
Some more Schottky
http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/L227.pdf
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those
who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
If you really enjoy your RV-10 building project and are looking for a way to
make it last even longer than just a slow build kit, you may want to
consider the primer system we've used on the 3 Glastars we've build and
presently are using on our RV-10. Deft primer 44-G-11 is a two-part water
reduced epoxy (developed for Boeing) that also requires acid etching and
can really make the project take forever! (oh yeah, the mix ratio is a handy
2 : 1: 4.5.) On the good side, when it cures it's ridiculously hard and
resistant to anything we could do to it. Don't let it get on anything you
don't want it permanently attached to! Sarcasim asside, it appears to be
a terrific primer. 9 years of annual inspections of our oldest Glastar
(often kept near the NJ shore) have shown zero corrison.
Bob Newman
40176 super slow build
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Minimum Instruments ( was TruTrak ADI) |
Hi:
Thank you all for very informed responses. I spoke to TruTrak today and got
a better understanding of "how" the ADI works internally. Your comments
provide a lot of insight into its practical use.
A couple of the responses brought up the loss of the Airspeed Indicator.
That raised some more questions for me that those with the ADI and the other
instrument pilots might be able to help with. They still relate to the ADI
in a general sense.
Given, the following three instrument combinations:
Magnetic Compass and Altimeter and ONE of the following:
A. Turn Coordinator
B. Attitude Indicator
C. Attitude Direction Indicator
1. Which combination(s), if any, would allow you to maintain control in IMC?
2. If you accept the fact that the ADI is not a true pitch instrument would
the ADI provide better control reference than the Attitude Indicator because
of its integral VSI function.
Thanks
Mark
Message 34
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| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
William,
Some thoughts on your question:
>I have a dual battery install with separate right/left busses that support
continued IFR flight without the alternator.
Continued IFR without an alternator-- How is that possible? OK, maybe
possible, but prudent?
No, not prudent just as it is not prudent to fly on a single ignition. The
capability to do so however is desirable.
For my RV-8A install, the design criteria was continued IFR flight for three
hours with a failed alternator. The POH procedure however for an alternator
failure is to land as soon as it is safe to do so. Keep in mind while the
panel is fully up, including continuous transponder use and radios,
unnecessary loads are shed by opening both battery master relays (the relays
themselves being significant and unnecessary loads). Non-vital loads can be
restored anytime by shutting a master relay. Here is a link to Tim's web
page that has an old version of this power distribution system.
http://myrv10.com/tips/electrical.html
I have since updated this design as there are better components on the
market. The concept however remains the same, protect the most reliable
energy source (batteries), assume there will be a failure and allow the
system to degrade gracefully, not catastrophically, and do not have a single
point failure lead to total power loss. The most failure prone component is
the alternator. This is one of the reasons why I went with two equal sized
batteries and a single alternator.
You'll note that the electronic ignitions have no alternate power source,
just the battery they are wired to. For the LightSpeed EIs, operation on
single ignition is not discernible from dual operation. Note also however,
the direct connection of each ignition to each battery. This is done to
eliminate other electrical bus failure modes taking out that side's
ignition.
As you say, there are a lot of good designs that offer better electrical
power reliably than that of traditional certified aircraft. This is just
one attempt.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
OK, that answer prompts another question that is not rhetorical.
>I have a dual battery install with separate right/left busses that support
continued IFR flight without the alternator.
Continued IFR without an alternator-- How is that possible? OK, maybe
possible, but prudent?
I used the term traditional because there are many ways to put all the wires
together to achieve the same ends. The certified aircraft to which I am
referring is the all electric dual battery, dual main, dual avionics buss
Cirrus SR series. They used to have their POH on line that anyone could
download which detailed the electrical system. I can't find it on their
site anymore but I have the SR22 POH in pdf if anyone is interested.
By all accounts, the Cirrus system is very good and reliable but I don't
think even Cirrus will say you can continue IFR flight without the
alternator. And the Cirrus engine is not dependant on the electrical system
as your electronic ignition is. If you have a design that is more robust
than the Cirrus, I (and I'm sure other builders) would be very interested in
seeing it.
I apologize in advanced for the pointed questions, however as builders, I
think we sometimes design pens that work in zero-g rather than just using a
pencil.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
-------- Original Message --------
>
> You have a point if you assume a traditional power distribution scheme.
> With dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel, I opted for a
more
> reliable approach than that used in certified aircraft.
>
> The issue of big wires through the firewall is really secondary.
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:40 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternator Circuit Breaker
>
>
> If all the "heavy" wiring is on the engine side, how do you get the 60
amps
> from the alternator to the buss? That's rhetorical.
>
> I think I know what you are saying because I see a lot of builders connect
> the output lead of the alternator to the battery side of the starter
> contactor thinking they are keeping the "heavy" wires out of the cockpit.
> You still need to run a "heavy" wire from the battery cable to the main
> buss. So unless you buss is also forward of the firewall, you still have
> "heavy" wires coming into the cabin.
>
> Having a cable from the alternator to the bus (via breaker or fuse) and
then
> a separate cable from the battery to the buss is normal practice for
> certified aircraft. Also, attaching the alternator lead to the battery
> side of the starter contactor MANDATES putting the alternator fuse or
> circuit breaker firewall forward.
>
> William
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
> "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
> and those who matter don't mind."
> -- Dr. Suess
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > RV10-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@cox.net>
>
> Use a 70 amp breaker with a 60 amp alternator to avoid spurious trips.
If
> the breaker does trip it means there is a serious problem, something you
> might not want to troubleshoot in flight by resetting the breaker. In my
> RV-8A I mounted the breaker on the engine side of the firewall. This
kept
> all the heavy wiring on the engine side of the firewall except for one
> penetration to the starter solenoid. I have a dual battery install with
> separate right/left busses that support continued IFR flight without the
> alternator.
>
> Carl Froehlich
> RV-8A (375 hrs)
> RV-10 (wings)
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions |
No primer, except on QB kits (Van's did it) or on bare steel parts. I
am using ACF-50, Boeshield or Corrosion-X leaning towards Boeshield.
Quick, clean, easy and lite. Wipe a thin coat on interior skin
surfaces or any other part not to be painted before or after assembly.
Apply liberally after paint.
http://boeshield.com/index.html
http://www.corrosionx.com/aviation.html
http://www.corrosion-control.com/acf50.html
Dave Leikam
40496
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Henry
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
Ugh, didn't mean to start something bad. I did find some information
on the vansairforce website which provided some direction. Thanks for
the suggestions.
Chuck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:51 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
and so the primer war begins!
Chuck- look through the archives and www.vansairforce.net forums for
everyone's opinion on primers. I can tell you that the easiest for me
was the Sherwin Williams DTM wash primer. It has worked well for me as
it does not require any mixing and it is water soluble so less toxic
with soap and water clean-up.
There are more durable 2 part primers but I didn't want that hassle.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Henry
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:07 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Corrosion Treatment Primer Suggestions
I have been working on the tail kit with great excitement. I did
see the first of the parts get clecoed together which brought about my
question. Section 5A of our builder's manual has several suggestions
for priming the inside parts of the aircraft structures. When I looked
through the archives I found little in the way of recommendations. Is
there a primer system that is better suited than the others that the
group has some agreement on based upon ease of preparation and
application, better protection and costs?
Thanks,
Chuck Henry
#40806 - Vertical Stabilizer
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://foru
ms.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www
.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 36
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I screwed up about 20 % of the foam core to the oil door. It broke off
when I unwrapped it and then lost the piece. Anything special about
that foam? Anything readily available to use?
Thanks in advance.
Dr Fred.
40515
cowling actually fit tonight with skybolt /camlocks.
Message 37
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I believe that foam core is just a like a flller or should I say something
to make that door thicker so you do not have to fill with bog etc, so what
about balsa wood or somthing light like that?? My thinking is you need
something for the glass to bight to. I might be of the track here I hope you
get what I mean
regards chris 388
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 3:20 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Foam core
> <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> I screwed up about 20 % of the foam core to the oil door. It broke off
> when I unwrapped it and then lost the piece. Anything special about that
> foam? Anything readily available to use?
> Thanks in advance.
> Dr Fred.
> 40515
> cowling actually fit tonight with skybolt /camlocks.
>
>
>
Message 38
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Fred:
Simply lay in some foam with flox, sand to shape, and then apply a couple
layers of fiberglass, then peel-ply, and you back to where you were.
Good luck,
Steve Mills N750SM (reserved)
RV-10 40486 Slow-build Eggenfellner E-6TI
Naperville, Illinois
Finishing kit, engine install
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie
McGough
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Foam core
--> <VHMUM@bigpond.com>
I believe that foam core is just a like a flller or should I say something
to make that door thicker so you do not have to fill with bog etc, so what
about balsa wood or somthing light like that?? My thinking is you need
something for the glass to bight to. I might be of the track here I hope you
get what I mean
regards chris 388
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 3:20 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Foam core
> <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> I screwed up about 20 % of the foam core to the oil door. It broke off
> when I unwrapped it and then lost the piece. Anything special about that
> foam? Anything readily available to use?
> Thanks in advance.
> Dr Fred.
> 40515
> cowling actually fit tonight with skybolt /camlocks.
>
>
>
Message 39
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Fred, measure the thickness and I will check our composite shop for some
scrap I can send. Most of it is 0.25, 0.375, 0.50, 0.75 and 1.00".
I am thinking it is 0.125 or thinner. I can contact M&T on Monday for
you.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and
Susie McGough
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Foam core
<VHMUM@bigpond.com>
I believe that foam core is just a like a flller or should I say
something
to make that door thicker so you do not have to fill with bog etc, so
what
about balsa wood or somthing light like that?? My thinking is you need
something for the glass to bight to. I might be of the track here I hope
you
get what I mean
regards chris 388
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 3:20 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Foam core
> <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> I screwed up about 20 % of the foam core to the oil door. It broke
off
> when I unwrapped it and then lost the piece. Anything special about
that
> foam? Anything readily available to use?
> Thanks in advance.
> Dr Fred.
> 40515
> cowling actually fit tonight with skybolt /camlocks.
>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV10-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete RV10-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
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This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
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The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the RV10-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv10-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV10-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV10-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* RV10-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the RV10-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* RV10-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the RV10-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV10
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV10-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV10-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 41
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| Subject: | Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV10-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV10-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV10-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV10-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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