Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:08 AM - Re: Re: Aircrafter's Seminar Pictures (Patrick ONeill)
2. 06:39 AM - V speeds (Dawson-Townsend,Timothy)
3. 08:11 AM - Re: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail (John Gonzalez)
4. 11:00 AM - Re: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail (Bill DeRouchey)
5. 11:24 AM - Re: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail (John Gonzalez)
6. 11:52 AM - SilPruf Window Installation (Here goes...) (Dave Saylor)
7. 02:52 PM - Re: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail (Les Kearney)
8. 03:15 PM - Re: SilPruf Window Installation (Here goes...) (Tim Lewis)
9. 03:51 PM - Re: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail (Paul Grimstad)
10. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: O-540 C4B5 (Marcus Cooper)
11. 03:59 PM - Re: SilPruf Window Installation (Here goes...) (Dave Saylor)
12. 07:35 PM - Re: O-540 C4B5 (ddnebert)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aircrafter's Seminar Pictures |
Hi Nick,
I believe the bonding agent Dave used for the rear windows (and possibly the
doors? I can't remember, the doors were open and up overhead for most of the
class) is GE Silpruf. I think the process is one used on Glasairs (but I'm
no expert in this and may be mistaken). The rear windows were bonded with
Silpruf. The gap around the windows was filled with black silicone (possibly
Silpruf, again memory is already fading.) And I think the black border you
see on the rear windows is just the black Silpruf behind the window. The
interesting thing about the technique is that you are supposed to be able to
remove the window at a later date should you ever need. It looks pretty
darn good.
The front windscreen was not done with this process. I believe it was the
traditional process as described in the plans with a glass tape around the
edge to stave off any seams/cracks presenting in the future.
It seemed pretty clear cut at the class, but it's already getting fuzzy.
Dave or someone else from the class can probably correct me if I'm wrong.
There is one thing from the class I do remember with perfect clarity.
Unfortunately it won't help: Don't cut brown foam with a hot wire!
Hope it helps.
Best Regards,
Patrick #40715 / N690CT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nick@nleonard.com
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:01 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Aircrafter's Seminar Pictures
The pictures from the class are great, especially of the windows. Can
someone please answer a couple of questions?
1) What adhesive was used for bonding the windows to the frame?
2) There appears to be a black trim of some sort around the outside of the
window. What is it and what was the process to install it?
I have been struggling with this process since the Weld-On seems to be a
good adhesive but a little too hard to keep from cracking in the seams.
All replies are appreciated.
Nick
--------
Nick Leonard
RV-10 (40015) Finish
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163502#163502
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Testing Vne reminds me of Calvin in the comic Calvin & Hobbes, when he
asks his dad how they test weight limits on bridges:
Calvin: How do they know the load limit on bridges, Dad?
Dad: They drive bigger and bigger trucks over the bridge until it
breaks. Then they weigh the
last truck and rebuild the bridge.
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025
tdt@aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail |
Bill,
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I must have missed the origina
l post, but from what you have explained, this topic in my opinion is an ex
tremely important one. I will do a personal archive on this.
How many defferent people at Vans did you speak with? "Or was it a simple,
well it flys doesn't it, my suggestion, keep flying."
I am not fully understanding your setting suggestions. You say run the righ
t servo to full nose up(Back). Then re-set the tab to 3" below trail. Then
you say run the right servo to trail and set the left tab to trail. I ask t
he question..."If we have run the right servo to full up(Back), then reset
the tab 3" below trail, where do we get the movement to run the tab back to
trail if we have already gone to full up(servo arm Back) for the initial s
etting.
Do we need more clarification on which structure we wnat up, down, nose up
or nose down??
Thanks,
JOhn G. 409
-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tailTo: rv10-list@matron
ics.com
All:
I have had several requests to repost my elevator trim investigation from D
ecember 2006.
Four or five builders have called since the original post asking about my c
onfidence level and other questions and they all said they would follow the
measurements below. As I received no feedback my assumption is that all is
well. Additionally, the two RV-10's at WVI use the following settings with
no issues.
The key idea is load the plane with light people in the rear seats, add app
roximately 60 lbs of baggage, run the plane up to cruise and look for the t
wisted condition. Keep this problem as a possibility in your mind until you
rule it out.
Bill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
I went through this issue with Vans couple of months ago hoping for a plans
revisionor service bulletin but those folks seem to be busy in other areas
- butI believe it to be important and want to share my findings. I set
up my elevator tabs per the instructions with both left and right 35 degree
sbelow trail position when the servo is at the full up position. It is poss
ibleto meet this spec by making adjustments at the servo end of the cable.
During my first cross country I happened to look back at the tail and s
aw itwas twisted. The elevator counter weight was above the horizontal stab
lizer onone side and below on the other. This bothered me more than a littl
e as the forceswould need to be high to cause this twist. I had not noticed
this duringmy test flights because I now had luggage in the back and neede
d more down trim.After a lot of measurements I determined that the problem
was I followed theinstructions. If you begin with both elevator trim surfac
es down at exactly35 degrees the port side will never rise to trail positio
n do to the cam actionof the two actuators. Yet, the starboard will rise .7
5 inch above trail causingthe twist. At a minimum effort, all flying RV
-10s should check for this condition. The fixis easy. Highly recommend
that you set the trim as follows: 1. Run the trim servo to full nose up.
2. Set the starboard trim tab trailing edge to 3 inches below elevator tra
ilingedge. 3. Run the starboard trim tab to trail. 4. Set the port trim t
ab to trail. Using these settings you will be able to trim out all pitc
h forces during finalwith the CG forward. Bill DeRouchey billderou(at
)yahoo.com N939SB, flying straight -------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail |
John-
Talking about nose up/down and elevator trim up/down could be causing the confusion
since they move opposite to one another. Its also important to recognize
when the positioning is created by the servo end travel or the trim trailing
edge.
Another problem causing confusion is communicating in degrees. I do not believe
that when Van says "-35 degrees" that this setting can be accurately repeated
for X hundred aircraft, nor do I believe that Vans two factory RV-10's are
set to -35 degrees. All of my settings and conclusions were drawn from doing the
Trig and cutting out accurate triangles. This is also why I specified a vertical
3" of measurement to eliminate the errors.
So - lets take another run at it:
1. Run the trim servo to its end point where the right (starboard) elevator trim
tab is full down. Full down is determined by the servo stopping and not the
trim tab jamming.
2. Set the trim tab trailing edge to 3" vertically below and normal to the elevator
trailing edge.
3. Get someone else to run the trim servo switch and have them slowly raise the
right elevator trim tab until it exactly aligns with the elevator trailing
edge. This is not the end of the servo run - it is determined by the trailing
edges matching.
4. Set the left (port) elevator trim tab trailing edge to align with the elevator
trailing edge.
Its very simple and much easier than working with the -35 degree spec for each
surface.
I did communicate and was supported by Vans engineering on this subject. However,
I believe the priority of the RV-12 got in the way of following this issue
to its conclusion.
Bill
John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
.hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE:
10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } Bill,
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I must have missed the original post,
but from what you have explained, this topic in my opinion is an extremely
important one. I will do a personal archive on this.
How many defferent people at Vans did you speak with? "Or was it a simple, well
it flys doesn't it, my suggestion, keep flying."
I am not fully understanding your setting suggestions. You say run the right servo
to full nose up(Back). Then re-set the tab to 3" below trail. Then you say
run the right servo to trail and set the left tab to trail. I ask the question..."If
we have run the right servo to full up(Back), then reset the tab 3" below
trail, where do we get the movement to run the tab back to trail if we have
already gone to full up(servo arm Back) for the initial setting.
Do we need more clarification on which structure we wnat up, down, nose up or nose
down??
Thanks,
JOhn G. 409
---------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:51:52 -0800
From: billderou@yahoo.com
Subject: RV10-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail
All:
I have had several requests to repost my elevator trim investigation from December
2006.
Four or five builders have called since the original post asking about my confidence
level and other questions and they all said they would follow the measurements
below. As I received no feedback my assumption is that all is well. Additionally,
the two RV-10's at WVI use the following settings with no issues.
The key idea is load the plane with light people in the rear seats, add approximately
60 lbs of baggage, run the plane up to cruise and look for the twisted
condition. Keep this problem as a possibility in your mind until you rule it
out.
Bill
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I went through this issue with Vans couple of months ago hoping for a plans revision
or service bulletin but those folks seem to be busy in other areas - but
I believe it to be important and want to share my findings.
I setup my elevator tabs per the instructions with both left and right 35 degrees
below trail position when the servo is at the full up position. It is possible
to meet this spec by making adjustments at the servo end of the cable.
During my first cross country I happened to look back at the tail and saw it
was twisted. The elevator counter weight was above the horizontal stablizer on
one side and below on the other. This bothered me more than a little as the forces
would need to be high to cause this twist. I had not noticed this during
my test flights because I now had luggage in the back and needed more down trim.
After a lot of measurements I determined that the problem was I followed the
instructions. If you begin with both elevator trim surfaces down at exactly
35 degrees the port side will never rise to trail position do to the cam action
of the two actuators. Yet, the starboard will rise .75 inch above trail causing
the twist.
At a minimum effort, all flying RV-10s should check for this condition. The fix
is easy.
Highly recommend that you set the trim as follows:
1. Run the trim servo to full nose up.
2. Set the starboard trim tab trailing edge to 3 inches below elevator trailing
edge.
3. Run the starboard trim tab to trail.
4. Set the port trim tab to trail.
Using these settings you will be able to trim out all pitch forces during final
with the CG forward.
Bill DeRouchey
billderou(at)yahoo.com
N939SB, flying straight
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail |
Excellent, thanks for the clarification.
JOhn G. 409
RV10-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tailTo: rv10-list@ma
tronics.com
John-
Talking about nose up/down and elevator trim up/down could be causing the c
onfusion since they move opposite to one another. Its also important to rec
ognize when the positioning is created by the servo end travel or the trim
trailing edge.
Another problem causing confusion is communicating in degrees. I do not bel
ieve that when Van says "-35 degrees" that this setting can be accurately r
epeated for X hundred aircraft, nor do I believe that Vans two factory RV-1
0's are set to -35 degrees. All of my settings and conclusions were drawn f
rom doing the Trig and cutting out accurate triangles. This is also why I s
pecified a vertical 3" of measurement to eliminate the errors.
So - lets take another run at it:
1. Run the trim servo to its end point where the right (starboard) elevator
trim tab is full down. Full down is determined by the servo stopping and n
ot the trim tab jamming.
2. Set the trim tab trailing edge to 3" vertically below and normal to the
elevator trailing edge.
3. Get someone else to run the trim servo switch and have them slowly raise
the right elevator trim tab until it exactly aligns with the elevator trai
ling edge. This is not the end of the servo run - it is determined by the t
railing edges matching.
4. Set the left (port) elevator trim tab trailing edge to align with the el
evator trailing edge.
Its very simple and much easier than working with the -35 degree spec for e
ach surface.
I did communicate and was supported by Vans engineering on this subject. Ho
wever, I believe the priority of the RV-12 got in the way of following this
issue to its conclusion.
Bill
John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
Bill, Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I must have missed the o
riginal post, but from what you have explained, this topic in my opinion is
an extremely important one. I will do a personal archive on this. How many
defferent people at Vans did you speak with? "Or was it a simple, well it
flys doesn't it, my suggestion, keep flying." I am not fully understanding
your setting suggestions. You say run the right servo to full nose up(Back)
. Then re-set the tab to 3" below trail. Then you say run the right servo t
o trail and set the left tab to trail. I ask the question..."If we have run
the right servo to full up(Back), then reset the tab 3" below trail, where
do we get the movement to run the tab back to trail if we have already gon
e to full up(servo arm Back) for the initial setting. Do we need more clari
fication on which structure we wnat up, down, nose up or nose down?? Thank
s, JOhn G. 409
-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tailTo: rv10-list@matron
ics.com
All:
I have had several requests to repost my elevator trim investigation from D
ecember 2006.
Four or five builders have called since the original post asking about my c
onfidence level and other questions and they all said they would follow the
measurements below. As I received no feedback my assumption is that all is
well. Additionally, the two RV-10's at WVI use the following settings with
no issues.
The key idea is load the plane with light people in the rear seats, add app
roximately 60 lbs of baggage, run the plane up to cruise and look for the t
wisted condition. Keep this problem as a possibility in your mind until you
rule it out.
Bill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
I went through this issue with Vans couple of months ago hoping for a plans
revisionor service bulletin but those folks seem to be busy in other areas
- butI believe it to be important and want to share my findings. I set
up my elevator tabs per the instructions with both left and right 35 degree
sbelow trail position when the servo is at the full up position. It is poss
ibleto meet this spec by making adjustments at the servo end of the cable.
During my first cross country I happened to look back at the tail and s
aw itwas twisted. The elevator counter weight was above the horizontal stab
lizer onone side and below on the other. This bothered me more than a littl
e as the forceswould need to be high to cause this twist. I had not noticed
this duringmy test flights because I now had luggage in the back and neede
d more down trim.After a lot of measurements I determined that the problem
was I followed theinstructions. If you begin with both elevator trim surfac
es down at exactly35 degrees the port side will never rise to trail positio
n do to the cam actionof the two actuators. Yet, the starboard will rise .7
5 inch above trail causingthe twist. At a minimum effort, all flying RV
-10s should check for this condition. The fixis easy. Highly recommend
that you set the trim as follows: 1. Run the trim servo to full nose up.
2. Set the starboard trim tab trailing edge to 3 inches below elevator tra
ilingedge. 3. Run the starboard trim tab to trail. 4. Set the port trim t
ab to trail. Using these settings you will be able to trim out all pitc
h forces during finalwith the CG forward. Bill DeRouchey billderou(at
)yahoo.com N939SB, flying
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | SilPruf Window Installation (Here goes...) |
The rear and door windows in N921AC are installed with an adhesive called
SilPruf. It's very thick (viscous) silicone material from GE.
(http://kbam.geampod.com/KBAM/Reflection/Assets/10412_3.pdf). SilPruf comes
in several colors and is avialable from
The advantages to this method over Weld On are that it leaves a nice looking
trim ring around the exterior of the window, it prevents the cracking along
the edge of the bond, and it would allow for the windows to be removed and
replaced in the future without repainting the area around the window. BUT
it's a bit of work.
We learned this technique from the GlaStar community. It's a little
involved and it takes several curing cycles, but the results are really
nice. AirLInk has a video describing the process:
http://mall.igfarm.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=airlinktech&
Product_Code=101-0101-0000
My description is a bit rushed and I may have left part of it out. Please
proofread it and let me know so we have a good record of the process. It's
a logical process and if something is missing I think you'll realize it. I
wish I had some pictures but I hope the video will help. One pointer here:
the video references a completely separate, alternative method using vinyl
ester resin. Vinyl ester will not bond well to the top or doors of the
RV-10. You could just substitute epoxy for vinyl ester if you decide the
SilPruf is too much work.
Please get in touch if I can clarify this. I suspect there will be some
questions.
Here are the steps we followed. I haven't watched the video lately so the
order may be a little different:
1) Mask the outside of the window. No sealant ever touches the outside
surface. Trim the window to the airframe so it has a 1/8" gap between the
window and the OD of the joggle.
2) Mask the inside of the window except for the edge. Leave an
unmasked margin 1/16" wider than the edge of the joggle. Apply another
layer of thin masking tape (we used fine line tape from an autobody store)
to the edge of the margin. This layer will be removed before the material
cures.
3) Prep the unmasked surface lightly with a cloth moistened with
acetone to clean and degrease it.
4) Apply a very thin layer of SilPruf to the unmasked margin. The
purpose of this step is to create the cosmetic "mask" that is seen from the
outside. Remove the fine line tape. Let the mask cure for 24 hours
minimum.
5) While the mask is curing, lay out a bead about 18" long by 1/4"
diameter of SilPruf on some wax paper. It will be used later in the
process. It doesn't have to be particularly uniform-just a line of SilPruf.
6) Trial fit the window into the joggle. Drill #40 cleco holes every
2" into the bottom of the groove between the window and the OD of the
joggle.
7) Make a bunch of wooden spacers out of inch-long of popsicle stick or
similar. Drill a #40 hole in the middle of each spacer. Use the spacers
under a cleco to clamp the window into the joggle. At this point the window
will be "below grade" of the outside skin.
8) Now cut the bead of SilPruf into thin wafers and shim the window out
so it is at or slightly above grade. Place one wafer approximately at each
cleco under the cosmetic mask. The wood strips will bridge from the fuse to
the window, and the cleco should apply enough pressure to slightly compress
each wafer. You will vary the thickness of each wafer to get the window
flush with the outer skin. Prep the joggle, then glue the wafers to the
joggle with SilPruf and let them cure. They have to be firmly affixed so
that they stay in place during the final installation. If they slip around,
the window will fall below grade and all the sealant will get squeezed out
by the cleco pressure.
9) Mask the inside and outside of the fuselage and apply another fine
line mask to the inside of the window.
10) Apply the SilPruf to the joggle, all around the wafers. Be
careful not to break the wafers off.
11) Put the window back in place and secure it with the clecos and
wood strips. Scoop as much as possible out of the groove between the
window and the joggle. Some material will remain under the wooden spacers.
Those sections will be removed later.
12) Remove the fine line mask from the inside. Let the whole thing
cure for at least 24 hours.
13) Remove all the masking from the inside, and clean up any drips.
If you catch them before they cure, that's even better.
14) Remove the clecos and strips. Remove the SilPruf from the area
under the strips with a pick, knife, chisel, whatever works. There should
be a nice uniform groove between the edge of the window and the airframe.
Kind of a little moat.
15) Fast forward to final painting of the plane. Paint the body color
right up to the edge of the groove, then paint over that with a very thin
line of glossy paint that matches the color of the SilPruf. Ours is black,
about 1/16" to 1/8" outboard of the OD of the joggle.
16) Then mask halfway onto the glossy paint and the entire plastic
outer surface of the window. Apply a bead of SilPruf into the groove to
fill it up. Smooth it up with a squeegee or your favorite technique, then
remove all the masking tape before the SilPruf cures.
That should do it. Fire away.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nick@nleonard.com
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:01 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Aircrafter's Seminar Pictures
The pictures from the class are great, especially of the windows. Can
someone please answer a couple of questions?
1) What adhesive was used for bonding the windows to the frame?
2) There appears to be a black trim of some sort around the outside of the
window. What is it and what was the process to install it?
I have been struggling with this process since the Weld-On seems to be a
good adhesive but a little too hard to keep from cracking in the seams.
All replies are appreciated.
Nick
--------
Nick Leonard
RV-10 (40015) Finish
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163502#163502
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail |
Bill
Thanks for this info. I have a folder where I store all these emails that
have key info for when I get further on in the kit. You just gotta love this
list and all who support it.
Cheers
Les
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: February-12-08 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail
John-
Talking about nose up/down and elevator trim up/down could be causing the
confusion since they move opposite to one another. Its also important to
recognize when the positioning is created by the servo end travel or the
trim trailing edge.
Another problem causing confusion is communicating in degrees. I do not
believe that when Van says "-35 degrees" that this setting can be accurately
repeated for X hundred aircraft, nor do I believe that Vans two factory
RV-10's are set to -35 degrees. All of my settings and conclusions were
drawn from doing the Trig and cutting out accurate triangles. This is also
why I specified a vertical 3" of measurement to eliminate the errors.
So - lets take another run at it:
1. Run the trim servo to its end point where the right (starboard) elevator
trim tab is full down. Full down is determined by the servo stopping and not
the trim tab jamming.
2. Set the trim tab trailing edge to 3" vertically below and normal to the
elevator trailing edge.
3. Get someone else to run the trim servo switch and have them slowly raise
the right elevator trim tab until it exactly aligns with the elevator
trailing edge. This is not the end of the servo run - it is determined by
the trailing edges matching.
4. Set the left (port) elevator trim tab trailing edge to align with the
elevator trailing edge.
Its very simple and much easier than working with the -35 degree spec for
each surface.
I did communicate and was supported by Vans engineering on this subject.
However, I believe the priority of the RV-12 got in the way of following
this issue to its conclusion.
Bill
John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
Bill,
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I must have missed the original
post, but from what you have explained, this topic in my opinion is an
extremely important one. I will do a personal archive on this.
How many defferent people at Vans did you speak with? "Or was it a simple,
well it flys doesn't it, my suggestion, keep flying."
I am not fully understanding your setting suggestions. You say run the right
servo to full nose up(Back). Then re-set the tab to 3" below trail. Then you
say run the right servo to trail and set the left tab to trail. I ask the
question..."If we have run the right servo to full up(Back), then reset the
tab 3" below trail, where do we get the movement to run the tab back to
trail if we have already gone to full up(servo arm Back) for the initial
setting.
Do we need more clarification on which structure we wnat up, down, nose up
or nose down??
Thanks,
JOhn G. 409
_____
From: billderou@yahoo.com
Subject: RV10-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail
All:
I have had several requests to repost my elevator trim investigation from
December 2006.
Four or five builders have called since the original post asking about my
confidence level and other questions and they all said they would follow the
measurements below. As I received no feedback my assumption is that all is
well. Additionally, the two RV-10's at WVI use the following settings with
no issues.
The key idea is load the plane with light people in the rear seats, add
approximately 60 lbs of baggage, run the plane up to cruise and look for the
twisted condition. Keep this problem as a possibility in your mind until you
rule it out.
Bill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
I went through this issue with Vans couple of months ago hoping for a plans
revision
or service bulletin but those folks seem to be busy in other areas - but
I believe it to be important and want to share my findings.
I setup my elevator tabs per the instructions with both left and right 35
degrees
below trail position when the servo is at the full up position. It is
possible
to meet this spec by making adjustments at the servo end of the cable.
During my first cross country I happened to look back at the tail and saw
it
was twisted. The elevator counter weight was above the horizontal stablizer
on
one side and below on the other. This bothered me more than a little as the
forces
would need to be high to cause this twist. I had not noticed this during
my test flights because I now had luggage in the back and needed more down
trim.
After a lot of measurements I determined that the problem was I followed the
instructions. If you begin with both elevator trim surfaces down at exactly
35 degrees the port side will never rise to trail position do to the cam
action
of the two actuators. Yet, the starboard will rise .75 inch above trail
causing
the twist.
At a minimum effort, all flying RV-10s should check for this condition.
The fix
is easy.
Highly recommend that you set the trim as follows:
1. Run the trim servo to full nose up.
2. Set the starboard trim tab trailing edge to 3 inches below elevator
trailing
edge.
3. Run the starboard trim tab to trail.
4. Set the port trim tab to trail.
Using these settings you will be able to trim out all pitch forces during
final
with the CG forward.
Bill DeRouchey
billderou(at) <http://yahoo.com/> yahoo.com
N939SB, flying
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: SilPruf Window Installation (Here goes...) |
Dave,
Have you compared the holding power of SilPruf to that of WeldOn?
Thanks,
Tim
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 1000 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Dave Saylor wrote:
>
> The rear and door windows in N921AC are installed with an adhesive called
> SilPruf. It's very thick (viscous) silicone material from GE.
> (http://kbam.geampod.com/KBAM/Reflection/Assets/10412_3.pdf). SilPruf comes
> in several colors and is avialable from
>
> The advantages to this method over Weld On are that it leaves a nice looking
> trim ring around the exterior of the window, it prevents the cracking along
> the edge of the bond, and it would allow for the windows to be removed and
> replaced in the future without repainting the area around the window. BUT
> it's a bit of work.
>
> We learned this technique from the GlaStar community. It's a little
> involved and it takes several curing cycles, but the results are really
> nice. AirLInk has a video describing the process:
>
> http://mall.igfarm.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=airlinktech&
> Product_Code=101-0101-0000
>
> My description is a bit rushed and I may have left part of it out. Please
> proofread it and let me know so we have a good record of the process. It's
> a logical process and if something is missing I think you'll realize it. I
> wish I had some pictures but I hope the video will help. One pointer here:
> the video references a completely separate, alternative method using vinyl
> ester resin. Vinyl ester will not bond well to the top or doors of the
> RV-10. You could just substitute epoxy for vinyl ester if you decide the
> SilPruf is too much work.
>
> Please get in touch if I can clarify this. I suspect there will be some
> questions.
>
> Here are the steps we followed. I haven't watched the video lately so the
> order may be a little different:
>
> 1) Mask the outside of the window. No sealant ever touches the outside
> surface. Trim the window to the airframe so it has a 1/8" gap between the
> window and the OD of the joggle.
>
> 2) Mask the inside of the window except for the edge. Leave an
> unmasked margin 1/16" wider than the edge of the joggle. Apply another
> layer of thin masking tape (we used fine line tape from an autobody store)
> to the edge of the margin. This layer will be removed before the material
> cures.
>
> 3) Prep the unmasked surface lightly with a cloth moistened with
> acetone to clean and degrease it.
>
> 4) Apply a very thin layer of SilPruf to the unmasked margin. The
> purpose of this step is to create the cosmetic "mask" that is seen from the
> outside. Remove the fine line tape. Let the mask cure for 24 hours
> minimum.
>
> 5) While the mask is curing, lay out a bead about 18" long by 1/4"
> diameter of SilPruf on some wax paper. It will be used later in the
> process. It doesn't have to be particularly uniform-just a line of SilPruf.
>
> 6) Trial fit the window into the joggle. Drill #40 cleco holes every
> 2" into the bottom of the groove between the window and the OD of the
> joggle.
>
> 7) Make a bunch of wooden spacers out of inch-long of popsicle stick or
> similar. Drill a #40 hole in the middle of each spacer. Use the spacers
> under a cleco to clamp the window into the joggle. At this point the window
> will be "below grade" of the outside skin.
>
> 8) Now cut the bead of SilPruf into thin wafers and shim the window out
> so it is at or slightly above grade. Place one wafer approximately at each
> cleco under the cosmetic mask. The wood strips will bridge from the fuse to
> the window, and the cleco should apply enough pressure to slightly compress
> each wafer. You will vary the thickness of each wafer to get the window
> flush with the outer skin. Prep the joggle, then glue the wafers to the
> joggle with SilPruf and let them cure. They have to be firmly affixed so
> that they stay in place during the final installation. If they slip around,
> the window will fall below grade and all the sealant will get squeezed out
> by the cleco pressure.
>
> 9) Mask the inside and outside of the fuselage and apply another fine
> line mask to the inside of the window.
>
> 10) Apply the SilPruf to the joggle, all around the wafers. Be
> careful not to break the wafers off.
>
> 11) Put the window back in place and secure it with the clecos and
> wood strips. Scoop as much as possible out of the groove between the
> window and the joggle. Some material will remain under the wooden spacers.
> Those sections will be removed later.
>
> 12) Remove the fine line mask from the inside. Let the whole thing
> cure for at least 24 hours.
>
> 13) Remove all the masking from the inside, and clean up any drips.
> If you catch them before they cure, that's even better.
>
> 14) Remove the clecos and strips. Remove the SilPruf from the area
> under the strips with a pick, knife, chisel, whatever works. There should
> be a nice uniform groove between the edge of the window and the airframe.
> Kind of a little moat.
>
> 15) Fast forward to final painting of the plane. Paint the body color
> right up to the edge of the groove, then paint over that with a very thin
> line of glossy paint that matches the color of the SilPruf. Ours is black,
> about 1/16" to 1/8" outboard of the OD of the joggle.
>
> 16) Then mask halfway onto the glossy paint and the entire plastic
> outer surface of the window. Apply a bead of SilPruf into the groove to
> fill it up. Smooth it up with a squeegee or your favorite technique, then
> remove all the masking tape before the SilPruf cures.
>
> That should do it. Fire away.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA
> 831-722-9141
> 831-750-0284 CL
> www.AirCraftersLLC.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nick@nleonard.com
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:01 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Aircrafter's Seminar Pictures
>
>
> The pictures from the class are great, especially of the windows. Can
> someone please answer a couple of questions?
>
> 1) What adhesive was used for bonding the windows to the frame?
> 2) There appears to be a black trim of some sort around the outside of the
> window. What is it and what was the process to install it?
>
> I have been struggling with this process since the Weld-On seems to be a
> good adhesive but a little too hard to keep from cracking in the seams.
>
> All replies are appreciated.
>
> Nick
>
> --------
> Nick Leonard
> RV-10 (40015) Finish
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163502#163502
>
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail |
Bill
I also want to thank you and all the others that bring quality
information to the attention of their fellow builders.
I save this type of information in the computer file, however I also
print a copy and in this case I attached it to the trim assemble with
tape for future study. I have a dozen or so sheets taped in the pages of
my plan book and one prime example is the gotcha list that Tim Olsen put
together for the fuselage. Your so right Les, to those of you that think
we other builders just lurk, No we listen and pay attention considering
all the options.
Paul Grimstad
RV10 40450
Portland, Or.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Kearney
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted
tail
Bill
Thanks for this info. I have a folder where I store all these emails
that have key info for when I get further on in the kit. You just gotta
love this list and all who support it.
Cheers
Les
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
DeRouchey
Sent: February-12-08 11:55 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted
tail
John-
Talking about nose up/down and elevator trim up/down could be causing
the confusion since they move opposite to one another. Its also
important to recognize when the positioning is created by the servo end
travel or the trim trailing edge.
Another problem causing confusion is communicating in degrees. I do
not believe that when Van says "-35 degrees" that this setting can be
accurately repeated for X hundred aircraft, nor do I believe that Vans
two factory RV-10's are set to -35 degrees. All of my settings and
conclusions were drawn from doing the Trig and cutting out accurate
triangles. This is also why I specified a vertical 3" of measurement to
eliminate the errors.
So - lets take another run at it:
1. Run the trim servo to its end point where the right (starboard)
elevator trim tab is full down. Full down is determined by the servo
stopping and not the trim tab jamming.
2. Set the trim tab trailing edge to 3" vertically below and normal to
the elevator trailing edge.
3. Get someone else to run the trim servo switch and have them slowly
raise the right elevator trim tab until it exactly aligns with the
elevator trailing edge. This is not the end of the servo run - it is
determined by the trailing edges matching.
4. Set the left (port) elevator trim tab trailing edge to align with
the elevator trailing edge.
Its very simple and much easier than working with the -35 degree spec
for each surface.
I did communicate and was supported by Vans engineering on this
subject. However, I believe the priority of the RV-12 got in the way of
following this issue to its conclusion.
Bill
John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
Bill,
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I must have missed the
original post, but from what you have explained, this topic in my
opinion is an extremely important one. I will do a personal archive on
this.
How many defferent people at Vans did you speak with? "Or was it a
simple, well it flys doesn't it, my suggestion, keep flying."
I am not fully understanding your setting suggestions. You say run
the right servo to full nose up(Back). Then re-set the tab to 3" below
trail. Then you say run the right servo to trail and set the left tab to
trail. I ask the question..."If we have run the right servo to full
up(Back), then reset the tab 3" below trail, where do we get the
movement to run the tab back to trail if we have already gone to full
up(servo arm Back) for the initial setting.
Do we need more clarification on which structure we wnat up, down,
nose up or nose down??
Thanks,
JOhn G. 409
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:51:52 -0800
From: billderou@yahoo.com
Subject: RV10-List: alternate elevator trim settings or twisted tail
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
All:
I have had several requests to repost my elevator trim investigation
from December 2006.
Four or five builders have called since the original post asking
about my confidence level and other questions and they all said they
would follow the measurements below. As I received no feedback my
assumption is that all is well. Additionally, the two RV-10's at WVI use
the following settings with no issues.
The key idea is load the plane with light people in the rear seats,
add approximately 60 lbs of baggage, run the plane up to cruise and look
for the twisted condition. Keep this problem as a possibility in your
mind until you rule it out.
Bill
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
I went through this issue with Vans couple of months ago hoping for
a plans revision
or service bulletin but those folks seem to be busy in other areas -
but
I believe it to be important and want to share my findings.
I setup my elevator tabs per the instructions with both left and
right 35 degrees
below trail position when the servo is at the full up position. It
is possible
to meet this spec by making adjustments at the servo end of the
cable.
During my first cross country I happened to look back at the tail
and saw it
was twisted. The elevator counter weight was above the horizontal
stablizer on
one side and below on the other. This bothered me more than a little
as the forces
would need to be high to cause this twist. I had not noticed this
during
my test flights because I now had luggage in the back and needed
more down trim.
After a lot of measurements I determined that the problem was I
followed the
instructions. If you begin with both elevator trim surfaces down at
exactly
35 degrees the port side will never rise to trail position do to the
cam action
of the two actuators. Yet, the starboard will rise .75 inch above
trail causing
the twist.
At a minimum effort, all flying RV-10s should check for this
condition. The fix
is easy.
Highly recommend that you set the trim as follows:
1. Run the trim servo to full nose up.
2. Set the starboard trim tab trailing edge to 3 inches below
elevator trailing
edge.
3. Run the starboard trim tab to trail.
4. Set the port trim tab to trail.
Using these settings you will be able to trim out all pitch forces
during final
with the CG forward.
Bill DeRouchey
billderou(at)yahoo.com
N939SB, flying
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
If I remember correctly, I got some mounting ears for the IO-540C4B5 on my
Skybolt from Atlanta Air Salvage.
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 61brv10
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:03 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: O-540 C4B5
Where can the mount ears be found? Thanks in advance.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163277#163277
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | SilPruf Window Installation (Here goes...) |
Nope. But I have seen it work very well in many other applications besides
this one. The numbers say it would take a catastrophe to break the
bond--thousands of pounds loading against the window--at which point the
strength of the bond becomes a moot point. So, no, I haven't checked, but I
still I trust the application.
Also, it's a bit of an apples/oranges comparison because the SilPruf
stretches so much further before breaking. That's what makes it nice for
preventing the hairline cracks.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: SilPruf Window Installation (Here goes...)
Dave,
Have you compared the holding power of SilPruf to that of WeldOn?
Thanks,
Tim
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 1000 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I looked at the engine spec sheet from Lycoming and it shows the weights and dimensions,
HP, RPM, TBO for the various IO-540 models. It appears that the O-540-A
and -B models are nearly exactly the same dimensions as the -D and -C models,
and about 10 pounds lighter (minus FI system?). It also appears that this
model (-B4B5 and -B1B5) is autogas STC-d.
Would this be a viable/easy alternative for the RV-10, dimension and accessory-wise?
--------
RV-10 Builder #40546
Tail mostly done, wings complete, starting SB fuse
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163792#163792
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|