Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:33 AM - Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing (orchidman)
2. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
3. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
4. 06:41 AM - Re: Blue LEDs to reset tired truckers' body clocks (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
5. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing (linn Walters)
6. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing (Tim Olson)
7. 11:18 AM - Re: Fuel pressure problems (Scott Schmidt)
8. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
9. 12:05 PM - second power source (linn Walters)
10. 12:58 PM - Re: second power source (Tim Olson)
11. 01:51 PM - Re: second power source (Chris Johnston)
12. 02:10 PM - Re: Fuel pressure problems (David McNeill)
13. 06:45 PM - New Builder - Tools (Doug Gee)
14. 07:24 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools ()
15. 07:30 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Robert Woods)
16. 08:04 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Rene)
17. 08:05 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Andy Turner)
18. 08:12 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Pascal)
19. 08:27 PM - first flyers (David McNeill)
20. 08:52 PM - Re: first flyers (Rene)
21. 08:57 PM - Re: first flyers (Tim Olson)
22. 09:02 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Marcus Cooper)
23. 09:55 PM - Re: Fuel pressure problems (Sam Marlow)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing |
dlm46007(at)cox.net wrote:
> Have you considered two Odyssey batteries in parallel with two masters? My
> setup can dump both batteries into the starter 1200A+ to start and 500a for a
minute or so. --
I plan on Van's battery and Tim's Aux/Esen batteries. After the appreciated comments
here and talking to Stein, it looks like I will be going straight from
the battery to the firewall where I will single point 'ground' both sets of batteries
to the plane and from there to everything else.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171183#171183
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing |
Yep, also something I'm doing and another reason for using #2. :)
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing
Have you considered two Odyssey batteries in parallel with two masters? My
setup can dump both batteries into the starter 1200A+ to start and 500a for
a minute or so.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing
--> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
For me the decision was fairly easy. Big engine, lot's of cold weather
time. Any advantage to cold starting is welcomed for me. If I still lived
in Texas I probably wouldn't worry much about grounding back at the battery
mount. I'll be through bolting the neg cable at the firewall and using that
point as the airframe ground and the point for all the avionics up front.
I'm also using #2 welding cable all the way to the starter. Might be
overkill but I'll never have to worry about if the cable from the battery to
the starter is the problem when it won't turn over.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing
The advantage to running the ground cable forward is that it will eliminate
ground loops and it gives a efficient path from the starter ground back to
the battery.
The negatives are well stated by Deems.
I would like some feed back from those that have grounded the battery
locally. How is it working? Are you having any issues with ground loops?
Larry Rosen
#356
orchidman wrote:
>
>
> Deems Davis wrote:
>
>> ...For aircraft like the RV-10 where the standard battery mount
>> position is in the rear of the aircraft. Bob saw no problems in
>> grounding the batteries locally (i.e. to the airframe at the battery
>> location) and avoiding the weight, expense and complexity of running
>> the additional heavy cable forward to the common firewall ground.
>>
>
> Bob is located only about 2 1/2 hours away but I have never attended his
seminar. I have his books.
> I know there are people flying that have done both and I am trying to see
which might be better and any problems some might have had with either
approach.
> Are there any advantages or needs to having a Neg cable going to the
firewall in the -10?
>
> --------
> Gary Blankenbiller
> RV10 - # 40674
> Fuselage SB
> (N410GB reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170739#170739
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing |
While it is probably way overkill I'm still considering adding a third battery,
similar to Tim's method, that can supply the dual lightspeeds regardless of the
state of the two main batteries. The two main batteries will be controlled
via two masters but the backup battery would be only wired to the Lightspeeds.
Basically it is the standard configuration for dual lightspeeds. I'm essentially
treating the two main batteries as one big one rather than adding the complexity
of a split buss or a single big battery. But I haven't made my final decisions
on the busing yet.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:30 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing
dlm46007(at)cox.net wrote:
> Have you considered two Odyssey batteries in parallel with two masters? My
> setup can dump both batteries into the starter 1200A+ to start and 500a for a
minute or so. --
I plan on Van's battery and Tim's Aux/Esen batteries. After the appreciated comments
here and talking to Stein, it looks like I will be going straight from
the battery to the firewall where I will single point 'ground' both sets of batteries
to the plane and from there to everything else.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171183#171183
Message 4
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| Subject: | RE: Blue LEDs to reset tired truckers' body clocks |
Interesting article that has direct implications to how we light our cockpi
ts... Granted they are talking about fairly bright light but still worth c
onsidering...
http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn13491-blue-leds-to-reset-tired
-truckers-body-clocks.html
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing |
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
>While it is probably way overkill I'm still considering adding a third battery,
similar to Tim's method, that can supply the dual lightspeeds regardless of
the state of the two main batteries. The two main batteries will be controlled
via two masters but the backup battery would be only wired to the Lightspeeds.
>
My two pennies here. YMMV! Two batteries really complicates things,
and three surely puts it over the top. I know, and i do understand your
concern. However, bear in mind that all the batteries need to be
recharged automatically .... with no intervention by anyone. No
switches to throw ...... nothing to manage the batteries electrical
health ..... because when you forget, and circumstances force you to
need that backup ..... it won't be there.
>Basically it is the standard configuration for dual lightspeeds. I'm essentially
treating the two main batteries as one big one rather than adding the complexity
of a split buss or a single big battery. But I haven't made my final decisions
on the busing yet.
>
I don't plan on including alternative ignition in my -10. My experience
in all these many years of magneto ignition has been really good .....
only two failures (one caused by me :-P ) in over 2500 hours, and
failing one mag was a non-event. I'm not impressed with KISS as a rock
group, but as a systems mantra, I can't seem to ignore it.
I will have an 'essential buss' ...... but it will be powered by the one
battery in my electrical system. The EB will only be there to allow me
to shed unnecessary load quickly.
Gary (down below) wants to be able to supply humongous starter current.
A good idea, I guess, but the added weight and systems to support even
the second battery goes against my KISS principle ...... and if you
truly take care of your single battery you really don't need to have a
second one. They do give you warning of impending diminished operation
if you care to look. If you leave something on and run your battery
down, it's really nice to go 'oh s**t' and employ your backup battery
(if it's charged!) and use it to start and fo fly. With dual electronic
ignition, I'd surely have a second battery to power the ignition ......
which will work as long as the problem is a dead primary battery and not
a wiring failure or solenoid failure or ..... well, the list goes on
when trying to create a truly redundant system.
Sorry for the rant, but I've known of at least one failure of the
'backup' system when it was needed for flight ...... and I don't want to
experience that first hand. For me, the benefits do not outweigh the
risks. For the rest of you, I hope you really give your systems designs
careful thought and 'what if' it to death.
Linn ..... plodding along.
do not archive
>
>Michael
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orchidman
>Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:30 AM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing
>
>
>
>dlm46007(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>
>>Have you considered two Odyssey batteries in parallel with two masters? My
>>setup can dump both batteries into the starter 1200A+ to start and 500a for a
minute or so. --
>>
>>
>
>I plan on Van's battery and Tim's Aux/Esen batteries. After the appreciated comments
here and talking to Stein, it looks like I will be going straight from
the battery to the firewall where I will single point 'ground' both sets of batteries
to the plane and from there to everything else.
>
>--------
>Gary Blankenbiller
>RV10 - # 40674
>Fuselage SB
>(N410GB reserved)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171183#171183
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing |
Sorry Linn, but the EFIS world really changes the paradigm a bit
on what usefulness a 2nd battery can be. Most EFIS systems
won't stay running while you crank an engine, and most EFIS
systems take a little time to come up to provide datalink
weather and other services, and to just do thorough self-tests
and the normal routine boot process. You can shortcut the
boot, but it's at the expense of self-tests and sensor
accuracies. Having a 2nd battery there to get things running
pre-start, so you have a display of all engine parameters,
and everything else, is a great thing. No, it's not a 100%
necessary thing, but it is a whole different situation than
the panels common 5 or more years ago. The electronic ignition
adds one more place to use a 2nd battery...but in my install
I combined the function and just have 2....I didn't go to
3. 2 though, that will be very common with EFIS based installs.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
linn Walters wrote:
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>>
>> While it is probably way overkill I'm still considering adding a third battery,
similar to Tim's method, that can supply the dual lightspeeds regardless of
the state of the two main batteries. The two main batteries will be controlled
via two masters but the backup battery would be only wired to the Lightspeeds.
> My two pennies here. YMMV! Two batteries really complicates things,
> and three surely puts it over the top. I know, and i do understand your
> concern. However, bear in mind that all the batteries need to be
> recharged automatically .... with no intervention by anyone. No
> switches to throw ...... nothing to manage the batteries electrical
> health ..... because when you forget, and circumstances force you to
> need that backup ..... it won't be there.
>> Basically it is the standard configuration for dual lightspeeds. I'm essentially
treating the two main batteries as one big one rather than adding the complexity
of a split buss or a single big battery. But I haven't made my final
decisions on the busing yet.
> I don't plan on including alternative ignition in my -10. My experience
> in all these many years of magneto ignition has been really good .....
> only two failures (one caused by me :-P ) in over 2500 hours, and
> failing one mag was a non-event. I'm not impressed with KISS as a rock
> group, but as a systems mantra, I can't seem to ignore it.
>
> I will have an 'essential buss' ...... but it will be powered by the one
> battery in my electrical system. The EB will only be there to allow me
> to shed unnecessary load quickly.
>
> Gary (down below) wants to be able to supply humongous starter current.
> A good idea, I guess, but the added weight and systems to support even
> the second battery goes against my KISS principle ...... and if you
> truly take care of your single battery you really don't need to have a
> second one. They do give you warning of impending diminished operation
> if you care to look. If you leave something on and run your battery
> down, it's really nice to go 'oh s**t' and employ your backup battery
> (if it's charged!) and use it to start and fo fly. With dual electronic
> ignition, I'd surely have a second battery to power the ignition ......
> which will work as long as the problem is a dead primary battery and not
> a wiring failure or solenoid failure or ..... well, the list goes on
> when trying to create a truly redundant system.
>
> Sorry for the rant, but I've known of at least one failure of the
> 'backup' system when it was needed for flight ...... and I don't want to
> experience that first hand. For me, the benefits do not outweigh the
> risks. For the rest of you, I hope you really give your systems designs
> careful thought and 'what if' it to death.
> Linn ..... plodding along.
> do not archive
>>
>> Michael
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pressure problems |
My vent lines have the standard cut per the plans.
During climb you have low airspeed, a large column and the highest burn rate for
the flight.
Like you mentioned Tim, I have never had any issues even if it stayed around 10psi
for a couple minutes. I typically cycle the fuel pump for a second and once
some fuel is burned off the issue goes away. In 350 hours I have had it happen
three times and all three times were when the lineman filled the tanks to
the point that fuel was running out the cap when you checked the level, I was
leaving from a sea level airport climbing to 8000 - 10000 feet for an extended
period of time.
Scott Schmidt
----- Original Message ----
From: David McNeill <dlm46007@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 11:36:03 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
By breather tubes , are you referring to the vent lines? If so do you have the
tips of the vent lines cut diagonally and facing forward. This is intened to provide
a positve "ram" pressure to the vent lines if they contain fuel.
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
OK, here is my theory on this one because I have the same issue.
It only occurs for me if I am climbing out for an extended period of time with
full fuel tanks.
What I believe happens is that the breather tubes get filled with fuel and as you
start to burn fuel it cannot bring air into the tank because of the "column"
of fuel above the breather which causes low fuel pressure warnings. I have
found that if I level off it is immediately gone or if I make sure there is 1-2"
below the filler neck I don't get this problem.
By leveling off and turning on the fuel pump, I think it can clear the breather
and everything starts to work fine.
This is just my theory but something you may want to look at. I'd be interested
to see if it happens with tanks at 3/4 or at lower angles of attack.
You would think that the full tanks would have a good column of fuel to supply
the pickup with plenty of pressure but possibly at high angle of attacks (which
causes the fuel to have to flow "uphill") combined with fuel in the breather
causing a low pressure in the tanks may just be enough to cause this issue.
I have also correlated it to climb outs that are greater than 4000 feet (could
just be extended climbs again) but everytime I fill the tanks completely full
and takeoff from a sea level airport and climb to 10k+ feet it seems to occur.
I've been wanted to sit down and work out the math, I know someone out there would
love to do that.
Scott Schmidt
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:15:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
The closest thing I can relate to this is a very very intermittent
thing....something I only see on a handful of flights, and usually
just in warmer temps.
If you climb at low airspeeds, like try to do a 90-100kt climb
on a hot day, I start to see a drop in fuel pressure. It starts
to fluctuate a bit, and then will start to drop. My audio warnings
fire up under about 12psi, so I don't run it too low to see how
it goes....I usually hit the boost, and drop the nose for better
cooling. Once you drop the nose and get more cooling airflow,
it goes away. Also, note that this happens in climb, when you
have lots of fuel flow. As soon as I level off, lean out, and
the fuel flows drop, it doesn't do it anymore. So, my guess is
that with high flow requirements in climb, and high heat, they
combine and produce low and fluctuating pressure. Since dropping
the nose has shown to eliminate the problem (like climbing at
120kts if I see this happening) and since pulling back the mixture
takes care of it once level, that is my best guess. But, as I
said, it isn't something I see very often...just on the hot
days or where I've done extended climbs...maybe see it 10-15
times a season...or something like that, but that's over 100-200
hours a season.
At one point I had tried to order a fuel pump cooling shroud
but the place didn't get them in stock. One of these days
I still would like to try that, along with perhaps some
heat shielding foam over the fuel lines forward of the
firewall. But, my thought is, if you get your cowl set up
with great cooling, it's probably something you wouldn't
see too often.
I'm not 100% sure of any of this....but it is something to
consider.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Sam wrote:
> That's what I thought to, but when I turn on the boost pump, it
> immediately returns to normal pressure.
>
> Jesse Saint wrote:
>>
>> That sounds like a sensor issue, maybe either a bad crimp or a bad ground.
>> Don't ask me how I might know.
>>
>> do not archive.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>> jesse@saintaviation.com
>> www.saintaviation.com
>> 352-427-0285
>>
>> Sam wrote:
>>
>>> The first fifty hours were trouble free, as far as fuel pressure goes,
>>> but now for the past 40 hours or so, I'm getting fuel pressure
>>> fluctuation's. Normally the F/P runs in the mid to low 20's, but now
>>> constantly fluctuates from 8 to 27 psi. The engine runs ok, but it's
>>> disconcerting. Has anybody experienced this on an IO540D4A5 before,
>>> would the engine actually keep running if the F/P was really down to 8psi?
>>> Sam Marlow
>>> #40157
>>>
>>>
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> *
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>
> - The RV10-List Email Forum Use the Matronics List Features Navigator
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing |
I'll be doing an e-bus, probably via the VP-200. I should have mentioned
that the dedicated battery for alt power to the Lightspeeds would be conne
cted to the main bus for recharging via a diode. My dual batteries are a p
air of PC-680's whereas normally an equivalent single battery would be some
thing like a PC-925. Little more weight but also a little more power and
a level of redundancy I feel is needed for an electrically dependant engine
and under normal circumstances either main battery should be able to start
the engine. Not the best choice for everyone by any means.
I really don't see your comments as a rant at all. They are simply anoth
er point of view that adds data points to a conversation. Each person need
s to evaluate the needs of their specific setup, in conjunction with their
mission profile (you have one right?) and do whatever is necessary so they
can sleep well at night. Once I do figure out the detail on my electrical
system, I plan on posting it here and over on the Aerolectric list to be po
ked at. :)
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
ausen.net><mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
While it is probably way overkill I'm still considering adding a third batt
ery, similar to Tim's method, that can supply the dual lightspeeds regardle
ss of the state of the two main batteries. The two main batteries will be
controlled via two masters but the backup battery would be only wired to th
e Lightspeeds.
My two pennies here. YMMV! Two batteries really complicates things, and t
hree surely puts it over the top. I know, and i do understand your concern
. However, bear in mind that all the batteries need to be recharged automa
tically .... with no intervention by anyone. No switches to throw ...... n
othing to manage the batteries electrical health ..... because when you for
get, and circumstances force you to need that backup ..... it won't be ther
e.
Basically it is the standard configuration for dual lightspeeds. I'm essen
tially treating the two main batteries as one big one rather than adding th
e complexity of a split buss or a single big battery. But I haven't made m
y final decisions on the busing yet.
I don't plan on including alternative ignition in my -10. My experience in
all these many years of magneto ignition has been really good ..... only t
wo failures (one caused by me :-P ) in over 2500 hours, and failing one mag
was a non-event. I'm not impressed with KISS as a rock group, but as a sy
stems mantra, I can't seem to ignore it.
I will have an 'essential buss' ...... but it will be powered by the one ba
ttery in my electrical system. The EB will only be there to allow me to s
hed unnecessary load quickly.
Gary (down below) wants to be able to supply humongous starter current. A
good idea, I guess, but the added weight and systems to support even the se
cond battery goes against my KISS principle ...... and if you truly take ca
re of your single battery you really don't need to have a second one. They
do give you warning of impending diminished operation if you care to look.
If you leave something on and run your battery down, it's really nice to
go 'oh s**t' and employ your backup battery (if it's charged!) and use it t
o start and fo fly. With dual electronic ignition, I'd surely have a secon
d battery to power the ignition ...... which will work as long as the probl
em is a dead primary battery and not a wiring failure or solenoid failure o
r ..... well, the list goes on when trying to create a truly redundant syst
em.
Sorry for the rant, but I've known of at least one failure of the 'backup'
system when it was needed for flight ...... and I don't want to experience
that first hand. For me, the benefits do not outweigh the risks. For the
rest of you, I hope you really give your systems designs careful thought an
d 'what if' it to death.
Linn ..... plodding along.
do not archive
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of orc
hidman
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:30 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Neg Battery Cable Routing
@wingscc.com>
dlm46007(at)cox.net wrote:
Have you considered two Odyssey batteries in parallel with two masters? My
setup can dump both batteries into the starter 1200A+ to start and 500a for
a minute or so. --
I plan on Van's battery and Tim's Aux/Esen batteries. After the appreciate
d comments here and talking to Stein, it looks like I will be going straigh
t from the battery to the firewall where I will single point 'ground' both
sets of batteries to the plane and from there to everything else.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
Fuselage SB
(N410GB reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171183#171183
Message 9
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| Subject: | second power source |
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> Sorry Linn, but the EFIS world really changes the paradigm a bit
> on what usefulness a 2nd battery can be. Most EFIS systems
> won't stay running while you crank an engine, and most EFIS
> systems take a little time to come up to provide datalink
> weather and other services, and to just do thorough self-tests
> and the normal routine boot process.
No apology (was it??) necessary. I see what you mean. As part of my
education ..... never had an efis ...... can you give me the voltage
range and current draw from your efis owners manual??
Does it take longer for the efis to come online than for a GPS??? Is
there a substantial delay before the engine parameters are
available??? Can you give me a guesstimate of the time???
> You can shortcut the boot, but it's at the expense of self-tests and
> sensor accuracies.
Really wouldn't want to do that ..... inaccurate info is useless!!!
> Having a 2nd battery there to get things running
> pre-start, so you have a display of all engine parameters,
> and everything else, is a great thing. No, it's not a 100%
> necessary thing, but it is a whole different situation than
> the panels common 5 or more years ago. The electronic ignition
> adds one more place to use a 2nd battery...but in my install
> I combined the function and just have 2....I didn't go to
> 3. 2 though, that will be very common with EFIS based installs.
OK, then it appears that a small battery (less weight) might fit the
application??? It might also run the essential buss for a while. Just
musing.
Thanks for the point of view.
Linn
do not archive
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: second power source |
On my particular EFIS, the Chelton the requirement is:
8-34VDC / 32 watts
The WSI receiver is:
10-32 Volts DC @ 0.6 Amp @ 14VDC
One of the other ARINC components is:
10Vdc 32Vdc operational @ .1 Amp maximum at 28 VDC
The OP Tech system is:
10VDC to 32VDC Input current 5.8 Amps at 12 VDC typical
Input power 70 Watts typical
The GRT system is:
Power: 12 VDC to 28 VDC 1.3 amps
The GRT EIS is:
9-18 Vdc, .1 amps
So, out of those particular systems, the Chelton that I
have has actually the lowest input voltage spec and a
lower current requirement than some of the others, and
yet if I cranked my engine with the screens on the main
bus, they definitely will reboot. It takes a couple of
minutes for a satellite datalink for Wx to link up, so
if you were prepping for an IFR departure and wanted to get
the actual weather picture before you fired up the engine,
you'd really be best off having it be able to boot and
stay alive during the time you have to crank the engine...
so you can sit on the ramp with the engine off and get
your Wx together. I also have a non-mandatory, but highly
recommended 2:00 countdown timer after the self-tests are
finished that allow the heaters in the AHRS to bring the
Air data unit to a stable temp and ensure that all the
sensors are ready for optimum performance. All of these
things can be a bit of a pain if you want to have any
of it operational during engine crank, as the voltage
drop gets pretty large on crank with todays high draw
starters.
Nothing is written in stone though, and everyone can do
what they feel they want to, but I just find tons of
utility out of a 2nd battery.
To continue to answer the questions, yeah, some parts of
the system, like the GRT EIS I have, are very quick to
boot, but have less quality of display. But some take
2 or 3 minutes to be fully ready to go. It all depends
on the equipment...and with the Chelton stuff they tend to
favor the extreme of reliability and accuracy, rather
than just a quick and dirty boot. I'm sure there are
some EFIS's that take much less time, but it would
come at the expense of some of the stabilization or
self testing. So it really depends on if you want to
fly IFR, if you want to have full engine gauges during start,
and of course what all the various equipment choices are
that the person has. There isn't really a single best
way to do it, but there will be lots of systems that will
be well served by aux batteries.
Your point about the *small* battery is a good one. To just
keep a couple of minor items from dropping out, it wouldn't
take much of a battery. A small one that is smaller than
a brick would do nicely for that simple task. For me, I
decided that if I was going to go single-alternator, I could
do that very comfortably if I had an aux battery system that
would power my eBus items for a full hour. So, I went
that route....a good sized main battery that I can use
'til it's dead, and a "use during cranking" aux battery
that can also serve to keep all of my eBus items alive
for an hour after I go lights-out on my "disposable"
equipment.
I'll throw one other thing out there just for the hell of it
while I'm at it...since I just ran into someone with the opposite
opinion last weekend...who flies my same type of EFIS.
When it comes to what to put on my eBus, I included my EFIS and
AHRS, along with one NavCom (the integrated one). IMHO, since
I have the juice to drive it for an hour, I look at it this way...
If I have an alternator failure in the clouds, the last thing
I want to do is get rid of my EFIS. Keeping an EFIS like mine
alive is probably the absolutely FASTEST way for me to get
on the ground. An RV-10 can fly a lot of miles and make an
on-airport landing really easily, if you can quickly and
successfully fly an approach.
The other guy's opinion differed....he figured that if he
"lost that stuff" that he may as well go all to backups
and fly the hard way. Well, I had a hard time with that
because losing an alternator shouldn't force you into
losing your EFIS...now you have to go with minimalistic
round gauges and get home...just when you already have a
high stress situation. He didn't have his EFIS on the
eBus. I didn't like that idea....you got the tools,
you may as well use them. My EFIS PFD draws 3A max.
the AHRS much less. If there were ANYTHING I'd want to
keep, it would be those 2 items. I just don't think the guy
thought it though as to what types of failures he expected,
and when he expected to have them. Perhaps in his mind,
the EFIS failure was inevitable if the Alternator died,
or he wasn't separating the 2 events in his mind. Oh well,
we all make our own choices, so I wasn't about to beat
anyone up for it. It's just a philosophy and it's one that
the builder needs to think through.
Sorry to ramble....for the first time in a while I felt
like typing a bit more.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
linn Walters wrote:
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> Sorry Linn, but the EFIS world really changes the paradigm a bit
>> on what usefulness a 2nd battery can be. Most EFIS systems
>> won't stay running while you crank an engine, and most EFIS
>> systems take a little time to come up to provide datalink
>> weather and other services, and to just do thorough self-tests
>> and the normal routine boot process.
>
> No apology (was it??) necessary. I see what you mean. As part of my
> education ..... never had an efis ...... can you give me the voltage
> range and current draw from your efis owners manual??
>
> Does it take longer for the efis to come online than for a GPS??? Is
> there a substantial delay before the engine parameters are
> available??? Can you give me a guesstimate of the time???
>
>> You can shortcut the boot, but it's at the expense of self-tests and
>> sensor accuracies.
>
> Really wouldn't want to do that ..... inaccurate info is useless!!!
>
>> Having a 2nd battery there to get things running
>> pre-start, so you have a display of all engine parameters,
>> and everything else, is a great thing. No, it's not a 100%
>> necessary thing, but it is a whole different situation than
>> the panels common 5 or more years ago. The electronic ignition
>> adds one more place to use a 2nd battery...but in my install
>> I combined the function and just have 2....I didn't go to
>> 3. 2 though, that will be very common with EFIS based installs.
>
> OK, then it appears that a small battery (less weight) might fit the
> application??? It might also run the essential buss for a while. Just
> musing.
> Thanks for the point of view.
> Linn
>
>>
Message 11
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| Subject: | second power source |
I totally agree here with what Tim is saying about what you pick to be
on your Ebus for minimal draw. With a comprehensive EFIS like the
chelton or similar, I would throw every electron I had in my battery at
that in the event of an alternator failure, because, as Tim said, you
can keep flying with a relatively low stress level. Plus, if you
regularly fly behind a Chelton, those old-school round gauge IFR skills
are gonna be pretty rusty :)...
Another data point that I'd like to make here with respect to EFIS
systems rebooting during engine cranking - if you get one that has an
internal battery built in, it won't reboot during cranking.
I got an AF3400 to be an engine monitor, ended up getting the
Engine/EFIS system, because, well why not? And I ordered it with the
internal battery that'll keep it lit for about an hour by itself. Many
other things make it very cool too, but the internal battery is a good
bonus.
Cj
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: second power source
On my particular EFIS, the Chelton the requirement is:
8-34VDC / 32 watts
The WSI receiver is:
10-32 Volts DC @ 0.6 Amp @ 14VDC
One of the other ARINC components is:
10Vdc - 32Vdc operational @ .1 Amp maximum at 28 VDC
The OP Tech system is:
10VDC to 32VDC Input current 5.8 Amps at 12 VDC typical
Input power 70 Watts typical
The GRT system is:
Power: 12 VDC to 28 VDC 1.3 amps
The GRT EIS is:
9-18 Vdc, .1 amps
So, out of those particular systems, the Chelton that I
have has actually the lowest input voltage spec and a
lower current requirement than some of the others, and
yet if I cranked my engine with the screens on the main
bus, they definitely will reboot. It takes a couple of
minutes for a satellite datalink for Wx to link up, so
if you were prepping for an IFR departure and wanted to get
the actual weather picture before you fired up the engine,
you'd really be best off having it be able to boot and
stay alive during the time you have to crank the engine...
so you can sit on the ramp with the engine off and get
your Wx together. I also have a non-mandatory, but highly
recommended 2:00 countdown timer after the self-tests are
finished that allow the heaters in the AHRS to bring the
Air data unit to a stable temp and ensure that all the
sensors are ready for optimum performance. All of these
things can be a bit of a pain if you want to have any
of it operational during engine crank, as the voltage
drop gets pretty large on crank with todays high draw
starters.
Nothing is written in stone though, and everyone can do
what they feel they want to, but I just find tons of
utility out of a 2nd battery.
To continue to answer the questions, yeah, some parts of
the system, like the GRT EIS I have, are very quick to
boot, but have less quality of display. But some take
2 or 3 minutes to be fully ready to go. It all depends
on the equipment...and with the Chelton stuff they tend to
favor the extreme of reliability and accuracy, rather
than just a quick and dirty boot. I'm sure there are
some EFIS's that take much less time, but it would
come at the expense of some of the stabilization or
self testing. So it really depends on if you want to
fly IFR, if you want to have full engine gauges during start,
and of course what all the various equipment choices are
that the person has. There isn't really a single best
way to do it, but there will be lots of systems that will
be well served by aux batteries.
Your point about the *small* battery is a good one. To just
keep a couple of minor items from dropping out, it wouldn't
take much of a battery. A small one that is smaller than
a brick would do nicely for that simple task. For me, I
decided that if I was going to go single-alternator, I could
do that very comfortably if I had an aux battery system that
would power my eBus items for a full hour. So, I went
that route....a good sized main battery that I can use
'til it's dead, and a "use during cranking" aux battery
that can also serve to keep all of my eBus items alive
for an hour after I go lights-out on my "disposable"
equipment.
I'll throw one other thing out there just for the hell of it
while I'm at it...since I just ran into someone with the opposite
opinion last weekend...who flies my same type of EFIS.
When it comes to what to put on my eBus, I included my EFIS and
AHRS, along with one NavCom (the integrated one). IMHO, since
I have the juice to drive it for an hour, I look at it this way...
If I have an alternator failure in the clouds, the last thing
I want to do is get rid of my EFIS. Keeping an EFIS like mine
alive is probably the absolutely FASTEST way for me to get
on the ground. An RV-10 can fly a lot of miles and make an
on-airport landing really easily, if you can quickly and
successfully fly an approach.
The other guy's opinion differed....he figured that if he
"lost that stuff" that he may as well go all to backups
and fly the hard way. Well, I had a hard time with that
because losing an alternator shouldn't force you into
losing your EFIS...now you have to go with minimalistic
round gauges and get home...just when you already have a
high stress situation. He didn't have his EFIS on the
eBus. I didn't like that idea....you got the tools,
you may as well use them. My EFIS PFD draws 3A max.
the AHRS much less. If there were ANYTHING I'd want to
keep, it would be those 2 items. I just don't think the guy
thought it though as to what types of failures he expected,
and when he expected to have them. Perhaps in his mind,
the EFIS failure was inevitable if the Alternator died,
or he wasn't separating the 2 events in his mind. Oh well,
we all make our own choices, so I wasn't about to beat
anyone up for it. It's just a philosophy and it's one that
the builder needs to think through.
Sorry to ramble....for the first time in a while I felt
like typing a bit more.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
linn Walters wrote:
<pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> Sorry Linn, but the EFIS world really changes the paradigm a bit
>> on what usefulness a 2nd battery can be. Most EFIS systems
>> won't stay running while you crank an engine, and most EFIS
>> systems take a little time to come up to provide datalink
>> weather and other services, and to just do thorough self-tests
>> and the normal routine boot process.
>
> No apology (was it??) necessary. I see what you mean. As part of my
> education ..... never had an efis ...... can you give me the voltage
> range and current draw from your efis owners manual??
>
> Does it take longer for the efis to come online than for a GPS??? Is
> there a substantial delay before the engine parameters are
> available??? Can you give me a guesstimate of the time???
>
>> You can shortcut the boot, but it's at the expense of self-tests
and
>> sensor accuracies.
>
> Really wouldn't want to do that ..... inaccurate info is useless!!!
>
>> Having a 2nd battery there to get things running
>> pre-start, so you have a display of all engine parameters,
>> and everything else, is a great thing. No, it's not a 100%
>> necessary thing, but it is a whole different situation than
>> the panels common 5 or more years ago. The electronic ignition
>> adds one more place to use a 2nd battery...but in my install
>> I combined the function and just have 2....I didn't go to
>> 3. 2 though, that will be very common with EFIS based installs.
>
> OK, then it appears that a small battery (less weight) might fit the
> application??? It might also run the essential buss for a while.
Just
> musing.
> Thanks for the point of view.
> Linn
>
>>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Fuel pressure problems |
Just one other comment on this isssue; I checked the solution of the cut of
the vent and the extra small hole inside with the lady (Phd in ME from Cal
Tech) up the street. She said that a square cut (or a diagonal cut facing
aft) produces a low pressure area that would tend to evacuate the tank and
cause fuel pressure variations. Also indicated that the small hole was a
good idea for backup vent.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
I was in light icing on Sunday, coming back from the Cayman Islands, and
that was the first thing that crossed my mine. I wasn't to worried about the
wing, but that little cold soaked 1/4 vent tube, had my stomach in knots!
David McNeill wrote:
<dlm46007@cox.net>
One other thing I have done is drill a small (50) hole in the vent line
inside the fairing. This does not affect the tam pressure much and provides
an alternate vent in case of icing. Since the caps are not vented, an icing
of the forward facing vent line could close the vent and result in fuel
starvation and/or deformed tank.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:43 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
<dlm46007@cox.net>
Depending on angle and cut of the vent it seems that a low pressure area
could be created at the vent entrance
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 4:18 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
<Tim@myrv10.com>
I'm pretty sure mine are, per plans....but I don't know how much real ram
air pressure is generated there.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
David McNeill wrote:
By breather tubes , are you referring to the vent lines? If so do you
have the tips of the vent lines cut diagonally and facing forward.
This is intened to provide a positve "ram" pressure to the vent lines
if they contain fuel.
Message 13
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours reviewing
the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful in trying
to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm ordering a
tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb questions and
thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set of dumb questions
- I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended increase
in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend recommended
the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet gun in the
kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts recommending
a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I need the hand
squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If I buy a 4" yoke,
why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I saw a post regarding
a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another - are the Avery clecos
good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery set? Do I need a torque
wrench - if so, which one? I see some recommendations to ream the holes before
riveting - if so, what sizes do I need? Safety wire twisters - is there
a recommended one? What size(s) safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet
kit - do I buy them from Avery or Vans? Are there any other "should have"
tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
Message 14
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
Doug:
Welcome Aboard!
I am only going to answer a few of your questions, and will leave the others
for the more qualified.
Rivet Gun...get a 3X, but don't spend the money on the Sioux gun, just get
the standard gun...its fine. Spend your Sioux money on the hand drill.
That's where you see the big difference in value. The Sioux is much
smoother, and after the 15000th rivet, you will appreciate it.
I did not use a pneumatic squeezer. I got the Main Squeeze from Cleveland
Tools, and like it very much, and built an RV-10 with it no problem. Others
like the Pneumatic...YMMV
Torque wrench...you will need one that measures in inch lbs. I got mune at
Sears for about $60 and it was fine.
You will need Oops rivets...yes get the set from Avery.
Should have:
Band saw
Die grinder (pnuematic)
Bench grinder
12" offset back riveter
Good luck
Steve Mills N750SM (reserved)
RV-10 40486 Slow-build Eggenfellner E-6TI
Naperville, Illinois
Finishing kit, engine install
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
--> <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours
reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb
questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
of dumb questions - I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend
recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts
recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If
I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I
saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another -
are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
Avery or Vans? Are the!
re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
Hey Doug.....I was in the same boat as you on tolls until
today.............Talk to Isham at planetools.....I got all the goodies at a
great price!.....Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Gee" <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:41 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
<Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours
reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb
questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
of dumb questions - I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend
recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts
recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If
I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I
saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another -
are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
Avery or Vans? Are the!
re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
Message 16
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
I will also give you a couple of opinions.....
I got the Cleveland tool kit, worked great for me, bought a lot of extra
clecos......you can never have too many. I also recommend that you get some
black cleco's, #19. I think you only need about 10.
Band saw and grinder are a must.
Scotchbrite wheel for grinder
Drill press comes in handy, but not sure it is a must.
Box of scotchbrite pads, I like the maroon one's, I think they are 320
Just some quick ideas off the top of my head.
Rene'
N423CF (Flying)
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
<Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours
reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb
questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
of dumb questions - I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend
recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts
recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If
I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I
saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another -
are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
Avery or Vans? Are the!
re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
Hi Doug,
Welcome to the party. I'm driving the last rivets on the tailcone, began the
empennage in November. It has been a lot of fun for me, I expect you will enjoy
it too.
As for the tools, I haven't regretted any of the tools I have purchased, only
the ones I did not. The job is challenging enough, having the right tool results
in higher quality work. I purchased a complete kit (Plane-Tools) before I
began, but I've added to that kit with nearly weekly orders to the tool companies.
And, believe it or not, I am a minimalist by nature. In fact, I began the
project with only hand squeezers, viewing a pneumatic squeezer as a luxury I
could live without. The first spar on the vertical stabilizer changed my mind
on that idea. I quickly learned that good tools would make higher quality results
possible. Nothing will make you feel better than good quality work, and nothing
will make you feel worse than a botched job.
Looking down your list of questions, I've asked all of them myself, and for me
the answer was a uniform yes - I've purchased all of the tools you mention,
though not necessary from Avery - I shopped for the best price. And, I don't
regret purchasing a single one of them. Most I consider essential.
A couple of specifics - I have three hand squeezers, along with the pneumatic,
don't regret having them a bit (well, OK, perhaps two hand squeezers would have
been adequate, changing yokes isn't that much work!). Lots of different yokes
are really useful though - different yokes work well in different situations,
the more the better. You will need the no hole yoke for situations in which
access to one side if the rivet is tight - the rivet is set against the yoke
tip itself, not a set. My tungsten bar is one of my favorite tools. My #30 and
40 reamers are other favorites. You won't need the safety wire twister and wire
till later in the project, but buy a couple of twisters (large and small)
and a variety of wire sizes - you will use them all. I really like my DRDT-2 dimpler.
As for the torque wrench, that is my next purchase, as my 3/8 drive torque
wrench is too heavy - remember that many of the fasteners are light - I would
like to find a torque wrench that will register down to 18 in-lbs or so.
Best of luck with the great adventure, -Andy
--------
Andy Turner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171405#171405
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
I'll tell you what I did, took much time and in the end saved a whole lot
over the "package deals"
http://rv10builder.net/tools.aspx describes the tools and the Van's list I
got from Brown Tools. I also bought lots of stuff from e-bay and the , now
defunct, Boeing store. I was fortunate, I got good tools and never
experienced any problems with any of the Vendors and e-bay.
If you dont care to shop around, go with a packaged deal, I think Avery
sells way more things than one needs, Home depot has a long piece of steel
for significantly less than the one sold as the "Horizontal bucking bar"
also you'll find that various sizes of scrap steel work equally as well as
bucking bar. do get Sioux drills, I have a 2x riveter and it works just
fine, I got my pneumatic squeezer from Brown with a 2.5 and 3, but no 4in,
and never regretted that decision, Brown has clecoes that have worked
flawlessly for me, and in general you can't go wrong with The Yard store or
Brown tools in my experience
I did the tools cheaply, I got the best I could and took months to build it
all up "on sales"..
I have found more is certainly not a bad thing if you have the money to
spend, I have used half of what many say is needed and it has been fine.
As far as the reamer... I have a few, bought from Boeing and they have been
nice, but certainly not a necessity, but I use them for every final drilled
hole, if I didn't it would be fine, the plane would still last a lifetime.
Lastly, get a pneunatic squeezer, you wont regret that decision.
Best of success on this new and exciting endeavour, look forward to hearing
your progress.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Gee" <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:41 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
> <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
>
> I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many
> hours reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very
> helpful in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all
> that, I'm ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for
> all the dumb questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for
> the first set of dumb questions - I need tools.
>
> I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
> increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A
> friend recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for
> the rivet gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I
> have seen posts recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a
> good one? Do I need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes
> should I buy? If I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no
> hole" yokes for? I saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold
> as well as another - are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars
> recommended? Avery set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I
> see some recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what
> sizes do I need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What
> size(s) safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy
> them from Avery or Vans? Are the!
> re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
>
> Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
>
>
>
Message 19
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Did you fly without wheel pants? If so did you remove the outboard wheel
pant support tube? The nose wheel pant support brackets? I assume the mains
inboard support must stay as the removal and replacement would be too much
trouble.
Message 20
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Did you fly without wheel pants?
Yes
If so did you remove the outboard wheel pant support tube?
No
The nose wheel pant support brackets?
Yes, removed
I assume the mains inboard support must stay as the removal and replacement
would be too much trouble.
Yes.
Rene'
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: RV10-List: first flyers
Did you fly without wheel pants? If so did you remove the outboard wheel
pant support tube? The nose wheel pant support brackets? I assume the mains
inboard support must stay as the removal and replacement would be too much
trouble.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: first flyers |
I left them all. Didn't fly too awful long that way.
Tim
do not archive
David McNeill wrote:
> Did you fly without wheel pants? If so did you remove the outboard wheel
> pant support tube? The nose wheel pant support brackets? I assume the
> mains inboard support must stay as the removal and replacement would be
> too much trouble.
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
Doug,
In addition to all of the other tools mentions, I'd HIGHLY recommend a
pneumatic pop rivet gun from Harbor Freight. Mostly useful when you start
on the fuselage floors so watch for the frequent times it's available for
$29. Best cheap tool you'll ever get and it's a lifesaver. Same tool is
available on e-bay and other stores but I've never seen it as cheap as
Harbor Frieght.
Marcus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
<Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours
reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb
questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
of dumb questions - I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend
recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts
recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If
I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I
saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another -
are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
Avery or Vans? Are the!
re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pressure problems |
Sounds like a good idea.
David McNeill wrote:
> Just one other comment on this isssue; I checked the solution of the
> cut of the vent and the extra small hole inside with the lady (Phd in
> ME from Cal Tech) up the street. She said that a square cut (or a
> diagonal cut facing aft) produces a low pressure area that would tend
> to evacuate the tank and cause fuel pressure variations. Also
> indicated that the small hole was a good idea for backup vent.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7:22 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
>
> I was in light icing on Sunday, coming back from the Cayman Islands,
> and that was the first thing that crossed my mine. I wasn't to worried
> about the wing, but that little cold soaked 1/4 vent tube, had my
> stomach in knots!
>
> David McNeill wrote:
>>
>> One other thing I have done is drill a small (50) hole in the vent line
>> inside the fairing. This does not affect the tam pressure much and provides
>> an alternate vent in case of icing. Since the caps are not vented, an icing
>> of the forward facing vent line could close the vent and result in fuel
>> starvation and/or deformed tank.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:43 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
>>
>>
>> Depending on angle and cut of the vent it seems that a low pressure area
>> could be created at the vent entrance
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 4:18 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
>>
>>
>> I'm pretty sure mine are, per plans....but I don't know how much real ram
>> air pressure is generated there.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>>
>>
>> David McNeill wrote:
>>
>>> By breather tubes , are you referring to the vent lines? If so do you
>>> have the tips of the vent lines cut diagonally and facing forward.
>>> This is intened to provide a positve "ram" pressure to the vent lines
>>> if they contain fuel.
>>>
>>>
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> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
> *
>
>
> *
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