Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:32 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Bob Leffler)
2. 06:06 AM - Batteries (Dawson-Townsend,Timothy)
3. 06:23 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (John Testement)
4. 06:30 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
5. 06:33 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Larry Rosen)
6. 07:01 AM - Re: Batteries ()
7. 07:01 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (John Jessen)
8. 07:11 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Chase Snodgrass)
9. 07:37 AM - Re: Batteries (Rene Felker)
10. 08:16 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
11. 08:30 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Pascal)
12. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: New Builder - Tools ()
13. 09:57 AM - Re: New Builder - Tools (John W. Cox)
14. 11:20 AM - RV-10 kit for sale (joe arnold)
15. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: New Builder - Tools (Pascal)
16. 12:12 PM - Mogas / Avgas Trivia (John W. Cox)
17. 12:29 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (John Ackerman)
18. 12:35 PM - Manifold pressure port (Fred Williams, M.D.)
19. 12:43 PM - Re: Manifold pressure port (BPA)
20. 12:46 PM - Re: Mogas / Avgas Trivia (Gerhardstein/Windance)
21. 01:00 PM - Blatant commercial message - DRDT-2 for sale (John Ackerman)
22. 01:15 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (johngoodman)
23. 01:15 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Jesse Saint)
24. 01:36 PM - Re: Batteries (gary)
25. 01:40 PM - Re: Mogas / Avgas Trivia (John W. Cox)
26. 01:43 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (SteinAir, Inc.)
27. 02:04 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (John Lenhardt)
28. 02:15 PM - Re: Blatant commercial message - DRDT-2 for sale (John Jessen)
29. 02:15 PM - DRDT-2 sold (John Ackerman)
30. 02:38 PM - Fw: DRDT-2 sold - WHoops! (John Ackerman)
31. 03:15 PM - Re: Batteries (Marcus Cooper)
32. 03:53 PM - Re: New Builder - Tools (Larry Rosen)
33. 04:07 PM - Re: Manifold pressure port (Fred Williams, M.D.)
34. 04:08 PM - A good day building.. (Bob-tcw)
35. 04:47 PM - Re: A good day building.. (Jesse Saint)
36. 05:47 PM - heated pitot to plastic tube connector (Pascal)
37. 06:49 PM - Re: Batteries (Patrick Thyssen)
38. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Batteries ()
39. 06:56 PM - Re: Fuel pressure problems (John Ackerman)
40. 07:05 PM - Re: heated pitot to plastic tube connector (John W. Cox)
41. 08:27 PM - CO Sensor and Sump Heater (Jesse Saint)
42. 09:00 PM - Re: Fuel pressure problems (David McNeill)
43. 09:45 PM - Re: heated pitot to plastic tube connector (Pascal)
Message 1
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
I agree with Rene's comments. I purchased the Avery kit myself, but
substituted quite a few items.
I didn't get a hand squeezer, but did get a pneumatic from Avery w/ 3",
longeron, and 4" no hole. I've been told that there will be times I need a
hand squeezer, but I haven't run across that time yet. I figured I could
always buy the hand squeezer later. The no hole allows you to get into
places in which you can't if you had a standard die installed. I consider
these three the minimum types of yokes you'll need. There have been times
that I could have used another yoke, but I ended up setting those rivets
using a gun.
On recommendation from an A&P friend, I purchased the squeezer and dimple
dies from Cleaveland. He was of the opinion that they were better than
Avery's. I can't substantiate that claim, since I haven't used Avery's.
I have purchased about 100 more #40 silver #40 clecos above what Avery
recommended for the RV-10. Working on the empennage, it seemed that I never
had enough.
I did upgrade the rivet gun to a Sioux 3x. I had a chance to play with the
Avery gun beforehand. The Avery gun works just fine, but the Sioux gun has
much better trigger control.
I also got a Chicago Pneumatic drill from Brown. Again, I liked how the
drill performed better and had a chance to play with both drills prior to
ordering.
I've had mixed results with both Cleaveland and Avery edge flanging tool.
I've had more success with recently with Cleaveland's.
I did purchase an Avery pistol grip pneumatic pistol grip cleco gun.
Definitely not a requirement, but clearly made inserting and removing large
amounts of cleco's much easier.
Yes, you'll need a torque wrench. I got the nice electronic version
(CDI/Snap-On) from Cleaveland. I have had problems with the clicker
versions before, which is clearly a personal issue for me and you may not
experience the same. It's nice to hear the buzzer, especially when you
can't see the wrench.
Also, get a tungsten bucking bar. I use this bar 99.9% of the same. It's
smaller, heavier, and much easier to use.
I also got a DRDT-2 instead of a C-Frame. It's quite a bit easier to use
and much quieter. My wife and daughter have used it and probably wouldn't
have touched a c-frame. That alone is enough to justify the upgrade to me.
I highly recommend the quick disconnect kit for the drill from Cleaveland.
I did most of the empennage before I got this. I got tired of constantly
changing drill bits. Now I can change bits in a couple seconds.
Reamers will yield a much cleaner hole that a drill bit. I use a reamer
whenever I can. I have #30, #40, and #41.
I got my safety wire twisters from Harbor Freight. I don't think there is
much difference here. I wouldn't get the torque wrench from HF.
Yes, you will most likely need oops rivets. None of us are perfect. Rick
Sked sent me some when I started my project. I will play it forward and
send you some if you email my offline.
With all this said, the plain Avery and Cleaveland tool kits will work just
fine. As you can see, I've made many upgrades that do cost more. They've
made my life easier by either reducing work effort or by providing me
greater control of the tool. This is going to be a highly personal
decision. To me, there was enough value added, that I was willing to spend
the extra dollars.
Enough ramblings for today. If you have an specific questions about the
upgrades, please contact me offline.
Bob
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:59 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
I will also give you a couple of opinions.....
I got the Cleveland tool kit, worked great for me, bought a lot of extra
clecos......you can never have too many. I also recommend that you get some
black cleco's, #19. I think you only need about 10.
Band saw and grinder are a must.
Scotchbrite wheel for grinder
Drill press comes in handy, but not sure it is a must.
Box of scotchbrite pads, I like the maroon one's, I think they are 320
Just some quick ideas off the top of my head.
Rene'
N423CF (Flying)
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
<Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours
reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb
questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
of dumb questions - I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend
recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts
recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If
I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I
saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another -
are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
Avery or Vans? Are the!
re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 2966 (20080321) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
Message 2
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Tim wrote: "Most EFIS systems won't stay running while you crank an
engine"
I say, any EFIS that's worth its salt will!
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025 Firewall Forward
tdt@aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
Bob,
Excellent write up on tool choices - useful to the newcomer.
My partner and I are on our second RV10 and have never needed a hand
squeezer (love the pneumatic). We also found the Harbor Freight Pop Riveter
($35) to be invaluable - especially for the floor pans.
I think your comments should be archived for 1st timers.
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
Painting
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Leffler
I didn't get a hand squeezer, but did get a pneumatic from Avery w/ 3",
longeron, and 4" no hole. I've been told that there will be times I need a
hand squeezer, but I haven't run across that time yet. I figured I could
always buy the hand squeezer later. The no hole allows you to get into
places in which you can't if you had a standard die installed. I consider
these three the minimum types of yokes you'll need. There have been times
that I could have used another yoke, but I ended up setting those rivets
using a gun.
On recommendation from an A&P friend, I purchased the squeezer and dimple
dies from Cleaveland. He was of the opinion that they were better than
Avery's. I can't substantiate that claim, since I haven't used Avery's.
I have purchased about 100 more #40 silver #40 clecos above what Avery
recommended for the RV-10. Working on the empennage, it seemed that I never
had enough.
I did upgrade the rivet gun to a Sioux 3x. I had a chance to play with the
Avery gun beforehand. The Avery gun works just fine, but the Sioux gun has
much better trigger control.
I also got a Chicago Pneumatic drill from Brown. Again, I liked how the
drill performed better and had a chance to play with both drills prior to
ordering.
I've had mixed results with both Cleaveland and Avery edge flanging tool.
I've had more success with recently with Cleaveland's.
I did purchase an Avery pistol grip pneumatic pistol grip cleco gun.
Definitely not a requirement, but clearly made inserting and removing large
amounts of cleco's much easier.
Yes, you'll need a torque wrench. I got the nice electronic version
(CDI/Snap-On) from Cleaveland. I have had problems with the clicker
versions before, which is clearly a personal issue for me and you may not
experience the same. It's nice to hear the buzzer, especially when you
can't see the wrench.
Also, get a tungsten bucking bar. I use this bar 99.9% of the same. It's
smaller, heavier, and much easier to use.
I also got a DRDT-2 instead of a C-Frame. It's quite a bit easier to use
and much quieter. My wife and daughter have used it and probably wouldn't
have touched a c-frame. That alone is enough to justify the upgrade to me.
I highly recommend the quick disconnect kit for the drill from Cleaveland.
I did most of the empennage before I got this. I got tired of constantly
changing drill bits. Now I can change bits in a couple seconds.
Reamers will yield a much cleaner hole that a drill bit. I use a reamer
whenever I can. I have #30, #40, and #41.
I got my safety wire twisters from Harbor Freight. I don't think there is
much difference here. I wouldn't get the torque wrench from HF.
Yes, you will most likely need oops rivets. None of us are perfect. Rick
Sked sent me some when I started my project. I will play it forward and
send you some if you email my offline.
With all this said, the plain Avery and Cleaveland tool kits will work just
fine. As you can see, I've made many upgrades that do cost more. They've
made my life easier by either reducing work effort or by providing me
greater control of the tool. This is going to be a highly personal
decision. To me, there was enough value added, that I was willing to spend
the extra dollars.
Enough ramblings for today. If you have an specific questions about the
upgrades, please contact me offline.
Bob
Checked by AVG.
8:10 PM
Message 4
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
As the others have said, I would talk to PlaneTools, Cleavland, or Brown. All
three of them are experienced and very reasonable and I have bought tools from
all of them.
I got all my initial stuff from Avery and found several items that you will never
touch in his kits and at least one tool that breaks often. It's the V shaped
edge debur tool that is brazed on and made by a relative or something. Long
story short but he replaced the broken tool, twice, but said it was my fault,
continually claimed I dropped it, and was rather rude about it. Both times
the end popped right off as I was using it. His stuff is fine but I'm not keen
on being called a liar and customer service is more important to me than a
couple bucks. YMMV
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours reviewing
the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful in trying
to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm ordering a
tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb questions and
thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set of dumb questions
- I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended increase
in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend recommended
the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet gun in the
kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts recommending
a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I need the hand
squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If I buy a 4" yoke,
why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I saw a post regarding
a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another - are the Avery clecos
good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery set? Do I need a torque
wrench - if so, which one? I see some recommendations to ream the holes before
riveting - if so, what sizes do I need? Safety wire twisters - is there
a recommended one? What size(s) safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet
kit - do I buy them from Avery or Vans? Are the!
re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
Mike Crow, one of the my instructors at Alexander Technical Center
posted this on the RV List back in 2004 so some of the specific info on
model numbers may be out of date and Avery and Cleaveland may have
changed there offerings, but IMHO it is great information. If you are
considering purchasing your tools in Kit form, IMHO this is great
advice. Below is what Mike wrote. It is not an exact quote and I will
add some of my comments in ().
To introduce myself first I am an A&P mechanic with an IA. I work as a
Lead Mechanic for a major air line. For the past two years I have worked
part time at the Alexander Technical Center at Griffin GA. as an
instructor on their quick start tail assembly program.
http://www.buildtofly.com/. (taking some sort of training class IMHO is
invaluable, even if it only a weekend sheet metal class)
I have been involved in over 100 tail kits. I have worked on the 6,7,8,9
and 10 kits; I am also building a RV8A myself.
As each class begins I ask if the student have already purchased their
tools. My hopes are that they have not as we have a good selection of
tools to try from the different manufacturers. The ones that have gotten
their tools before coming often say I wish I had gotten this tool or
that tool instead. In the following I will try to give you a list and
suggestions of tools that I have learned over the past two years. Please
keep in mind that this information is my opinion and mine alone. Others
may agree or disagree.
There are two major suppliers of tools for the RV tail kits that I
recommend Avery and Cleaveland both are RV builders and are good and
honest people to do business with.
I would buy a tool kit from Avery or Cleaveland to begin with. Both will
allow you to add or subtract the tools you want to the kit. I will use
both their 2004 catalogs as a guide. (The information is updated for
Cleaveland's 2005 catalog)
First if you buy Cleaveland's kit I would buy their complete airframe
tool package p/n Comp-Kit 05.
I would subtract from the kit:
BBRP-48 Back Riveting Plate-It is a nice plate but too small in my
opinion. (Cleaveland must be listening they now have an optional 4"x16"
back riveting plate. Get the bigger plate)
CF-80 C-Frame Riveting Tool-More about C-Frames later but if you get
this one also order their C-From Table Kit CTF-48
ASRD-14 Air Swivel Regulator- has been changed it now has a click type
knob. This is the type regulator you will want.
I would add to the kit:
I would suggest the 3X Rivet gun- The 2x works good on the 3/32 rivet
but not well on the 1/8 rivet. Get a 3x to work well on the 1/8 and turn
down the pressure a little to do the 3/32 or better yet buy one of
each. The 3X is standard in the kit.
DP-8 Drive Pin Punches- This is a nice punch set you could get by with
only the 3/32 and 1/8 which come in the kit. (you will be removing a few
bad rivets)
LBL-13 BOELUBE Do not drill lead without it.
3MW-77S6 Light deburring wheel- You get a rougher one in the kit you
need both. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a grinder and install
these wheels.
3MP-47 Scotch-Brite pads-you will need plenty. The kit now has 5 pads.
DIE509-10 #10 SCREW DIMPLE DIES-You will need these to dimple for the
screws for the lead weights
SNYT-405 4in THIN NOSE YOKE- You are going to need a thin nose and a 4in
nose get them both in one.
SNYF-251 2.5in FLANGE NOSE YOKE- There is places where nothing else is
going to reach.
RSMS-75 SWIVEL FLUSH SET WITH RUBBER GUARD-You must cut some of the
rubber down or you rivets will set too high
CLP-20 CLEKO PLIERS-One is not enough.
CLC-50 1/2in CLEKO CLAMP-You get 4. You need at least 10.
CLC-100 1in CLEKO CLAMP-You get 4. You need at least 10.
CC120-30 120 DEGREE DIES FOR 1/8 POP RIVETS-You use a lot of CS4-4 on
the floor boards of the fuselage they are 120 degrees.
For our RV10 friends RSB-12 12in back rivet set-You will need this to
back rivet the stiffeners on the elevators.
The RV10 will also need BBRV10 SPECIAL BUCKING BAR-You will need this
for the elevators.
I would buy from Avery to complete the kit from Cleaveland 575 hand
seamer 3-1/2 jaw-I use this to squeezing the trailing edge of the
trim tabs.
550 3/32 vise grip dimplers- several places on ribs this is needed.
1046 SPEED DEBURRING AND COUNTERSINKING TOOL
23904 4 PC. HOOK AND PICK SET-You will need a pick many times for
aligning skins (Harbor Freight)
If you buy an Avery tool kit, I would buy the RV-3,-4-6-7-8-9and -10
builders tool kit.
I would subtract from the kit
1001 22in hand rivet and dimpling tool-it is there c-frame tool a good
tool but see below about a c-frame tool
10765 POLYETHYLENE DIMPLING MALLET-Goes with the c-frame tool. If you
get the c-frame tool get the mallet. (Harbor Freight)
500 FLUTING PLIERS- You need a pair of fluting pliers I like
Cleaveland's a lot better.
1042 EDGE ROLLING TOOL- I can not get this tool to work for me. It could
just be me.
3507 3M RIVETING TAPE-Works well. If you use it take it off after use it
is real hard to get off later. Use Scotch Removable Magic Tape works as
well and much cheaper.
9885 ANGLE DRILL KIT- Nice kit not needed for the tail kit could be used
later. (ebay)
1054 NBR 8 SCREW COUNTERSINK CUTTER-Not needed for the tail kit.
25500 SWIVEL HEAD POP RIVET TOOL-If you must use a hand pop tool use
Cleaveland's PRS-20 it is much easier to squeeze.
I would add to the kit:
7760 4in NO HOLE YOKE
7755 LONGERON YOKE
811 RIVETING TAPE-Scotch removable magic tape.
1003 BOELUBE Do not drill lead without it.
200 CLECO PLIERS-One is not enough.
1661 Light deburring wheel- You get a rougher one in the kit you need
both. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a grinder and install these
wheels.
23904 4 PC. HOOK AND PICK SET-You will need a pick many times for
aligning skins.
For the RV9 42120 SPECIAL 120 DEGREE COUNTERSINK-Used where you use
CS4-4 rivets on the elevators.
For the RV10 630 RV10 ELEVATOR BUCKING BAR
I would by from Cleaveland to complete the Avery kit:.
3MP-47 Scotch-Brite pads-you will need plenty
DIE509-10 #10 SCREW DIMPLE DIES-You will need these to dimple for the
screws for the lead weights
EF-60 EDGE FORMER-Needed at seams
HS-30 OFFSET HAND SEAMER-Used many places
FP-200 FLUTING PLIERS-Used to straighten ribs
For the RV9 DIECS4-4 120 DEGREE DIES FOR 1/8 POP RIVETS-You use a lot of
CS4-4 on the skin of your elevators they are 120 degrees.
For our RV10 friends RSB-12 12in back rivet set-You will need this to
back rivet the stiffeners on the elevators.
Tools that would be nice to have:
PNEUMATIC SQUEEZER- In my opinion a must have. Get a 214 style. Make
sure to get an adjustable set holder for it.
PNEUMATIC POP RIVET GUN-Go to harbor freight or such and get one for
around $40.00
LIGHTWEIGHT HOSE KITS-Makes it a lot easier to handle drills and rivet guns
TATCO HAND SQUEEZER WITH 2in YOKE-Makes it a lot easier to dimple all
those ribs (Not necessary, I like Avery's squeezer)
C-FRAME DIMPLER
EXPERIMENTAL AERO
I brought a DRDT dimplier and installed it at Alexander Technical Center
to try it out in January this year.
Boy was that a mistake. There is no way I am getting it back. It is the
best I have used for dimpling. It gives best dimples; it is consistent,
quiet and a one man operation.
There is no way I am going back to the old c-frame hammer method. Now if
I need to dimple I pack up what I have and drive 32 miles even though I
have a hammer c-Frame dimplier at home. It is that much better. They now
sell the DRDT-2 which has some improvement over the -1.
Mike Crowe
Doug Gee wrote:
>
> I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours reviewing
the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful in trying
to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm ordering
a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb questions
and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set of dumb questions
- I need tools.
>
> I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended increase
in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend recommended
the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet gun in
the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts recommending
a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I need the hand
squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If I buy a 4" yoke,
why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I saw a post regarding
a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another - are the Avery clecos
good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery set? Do I need a torque
wrench - if so, which one? I see some recommendations to ream the holes
before riveting - if so, what sizes do I need? Safety wire twisters - is there
a recommended one? What size(s) safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops
rivet kit - do I buy them from Avery or Vans? Are the!
> re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
>
> Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
>
>
>
Message 6
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I agree!
I have the Advanced Flight Systems 3500EE and it works great during cranking.
Any EFIS that will not function during cranking is not worth having. Thats a required
feature in my opinion.
Jim Combs
40192
===========================================================
From: "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy" <tdawson-townsend@aurora.aero>
Subject: RV10-List: Batteries
Tim wrote: "Most EFIS systems won't stay running while you crank an
engine"
I say, any EFIS that's worth its salt will!
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025 Firewall Forward
tdt@aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
===========================================================
Message 7
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
Yikes! My mileage has varied greatly!
Not saying that this didn't happen to Michael, but Avery is where I start
when thinking about buying another tool. It is also where I bought my
original set. Bob has provided nothing but the best service for me over the
years. Once taking back my stale pneumatic squeezer (not used at all in two
years) and rebuilt it for free after it didn't perform correctly. When I
complained about a rivet set (wasn't the rivet set's fault, rather my
technique), he sent out another for free, including shipping. He's always
been there for questions. The family's been under some great stress
recently, but doubt that that should make a difference. Just real good
people. I'd not pass them by. As I would not Cleveland, the only other one
I've had direct experience with. They have been excellent as well.
What you want is a company that has people who are willing to talk about the
issues that you are encountering during the build, whether it be the quality
or durability of a tool, how to use the tool, or an approach to a problem,
and I've found both companies are very willing and able to do so.
As Michael said, YMMV.
John Jessen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:27 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
--> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
As the others have said, I would talk to PlaneTools, Cleavland, or Brown.
All three of them are experienced and very reasonable and I have bought
tools from all of them.
I got all my initial stuff from Avery and found several items that you
will never touch in his kits and at least one tool that breaks often. It's
the V shaped edge debur tool that is brazed on and made by a relative or
something. Long story short but he replaced the broken tool, twice, but
said it was my fault, continually claimed I dropped it, and was rather rude
about it. Both times the end popped right off as I was using it. His stuff
is fine but I'm not keen on being called a liar and customer service is more
important to me than a couple bucks. YMMV
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
--> <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours
reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb
questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
of dumb questions - I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend
recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts
recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If
I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I
saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another -
are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
Avery or Vans? Are the!
re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
I have to put in a good word for Bob Avery here. I've been buying
tools from Avery and others for ten years. I have found Bob to be the
most professional, courteous, and friendly. He will bend over
backwards to make good on his sales. I find his customer service and
tool quality so good, that I use Avery tools almost exclusively for
all my tool needs.
Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, TX
http://flybigbend.com
Message 9
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Jim are you just trying to start an EFIS war? :)
I made no provision for keeping my GRT Horizon 1 on line during cranking. I
knew it would not stay on line, and with other electronics I have on board,
I don't want it on line during cranking. I use the EIS for engine start,
and it works great. Here is my startup procedure.
Battery on line
Check EIS for warnings, make sure nothing unexpected is showing
Crank engine, monitoring EIS
With engine start, wait for oil pressure, check for alarms
Bring alternator on line
Start up GRT EFIS, A/P and other avionics
Wait a minute or so for EFIS and 430 to settle down, taxi and go.
Use paper checklist unit EFIS is on line. It was just yesterday that I got
the checklist loaded in the GRT, was using the BM lite. It was real nice to
have the parameters and data available in the check list.
I have been thinking about a second battery, but based on my mission
requirements just don't see a need.
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim@CombsFive.Com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Batteries
I agree!
I have the Advanced Flight Systems 3500EE and it works great during
cranking.
Any EFIS that will not function during cranking is not worth having. Thats
a required feature in my opinion.
Jim Combs
40192
===========================================================
From: "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy" <tdawson-townsend@aurora.aero>
Subject: RV10-List: Batteries
Tim wrote: "Most EFIS systems won't stay running while you crank an
engine"
I say, any EFIS that's worth its salt will!
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025 Firewall Forward
tdt@aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
===========================================================
Message 10
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
Like I said though, nothing wrong with his stuff and he did replace it every
time. Far more people have had positive experiences with him than negative but
no one is perfect. This was back in 2006. Who knows, might have caught him
on a bad day. If it wasn't a face to face conversation I might have had a different
impression of it. Just a datapoint.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 8:59 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
Yikes! My mileage has varied greatly!
Not saying that this didn't happen to Michael, but Avery is where I start
when thinking about buying another tool. It is also where I bought my
original set. Bob has provided nothing but the best service for me over the
years. Once taking back my stale pneumatic squeezer (not used at all in two
years) and rebuilt it for free after it didn't perform correctly. When I
complained about a rivet set (wasn't the rivet set's fault, rather my
technique), he sent out another for free, including shipping. He's always
been there for questions. The family's been under some great stress
recently, but doubt that that should make a difference. Just real good
people. I'd not pass them by. As I would not Cleveland, the only other one
I've had direct experience with. They have been excellent as well.
What you want is a company that has people who are willing to talk about the
issues that you are encountering during the build, whether it be the quality
or durability of a tool, how to use the tool, or an approach to a problem,
and I've found both companies are very willing and able to do so.
As Michael said, YMMV.
John Jessen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:27 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
--> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
As the others have said, I would talk to PlaneTools, Cleavland, or Brown.
All three of them are experienced and very reasonable and I have bought
tools from all of them.
I got all my initial stuff from Avery and found several items that you
will never touch in his kits and at least one tool that breaks often. It's
the V shaped edge debur tool that is brazed on and made by a relative or
something. Long story short but he replaced the broken tool, twice, but
said it was my fault, continually claimed I dropped it, and was rather rude
about it. Both times the end popped right off as I was using it. His stuff
is fine but I'm not keen on being called a liar and customer service is more
important to me than a couple bucks. YMMV
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
--> <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours
reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb
questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
of dumb questions - I need tools.
I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A friend
recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen posts
recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If
I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for? I
saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another -
are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
Avery or Vans? Are the!
re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
get the extended warranty however, mine broke after 150 pop rivets.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@cableone.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>
> Doug,
> In addition to all of the other tools mentions, I'd HIGHLY recommend a
> pneumatic pop rivet gun from Harbor Freight. Mostly useful when you start
> on the fuselage floors so watch for the frequent times it's available for
> $29. Best cheap tool you'll ever get and it's a lifesaver. Same tool is
> available on e-bay and other stores but I've never seen it as cheap as
> Harbor Frieght.
>
> Marcus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:42 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>
> <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
>
> I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many
> hours
> reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
> in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
> ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the
> dumb
> questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
> of dumb questions - I need tools.
>
> I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
> increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A
> friend
> recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
> gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen
> posts
> recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
> need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy?
> If
> I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for?
> I
> saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as
> another -
> are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
> set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
> recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
> need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
> safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
> Avery or Vans? Are the!
> re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
>
> Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
>
>
>
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
They must be spiffed on the warranty sales. Recently every time I buy something
from HF, the one gal discounts the unit by the cost of the warranty extension.
>
> From: "Pascal" <rv10builder@verizon.net>
> Date: 2008/03/21 Fri AM 10:27:23 EST
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>
>
> get the extended warranty however, mine broke after 150 pop rivets.
> Pascal
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@cableone.net>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:00 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>
>
> >
> > Doug,
> > In addition to all of the other tools mentions, I'd HIGHLY recommend a
> > pneumatic pop rivet gun from Harbor Freight. Mostly useful when you start
> > on the fuselage floors so watch for the frequent times it's available for
> > $29. Best cheap tool you'll ever get and it's a lifesaver. Same tool is
> > available on e-bay and other stores but I've never seen it as cheap as
> > Harbor Frieght.
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:42 PM
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
> >
> > <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
> >
> > I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many
> > hours
> > reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful
> > in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that, I'm
> > ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the
> > dumb
> > questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first set
> > of dumb questions - I need tools.
> >
> > I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended
> > increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A
> > friend
> > recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet
> > gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen
> > posts
> > recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I
> > need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy?
> > If
> > I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes for?
> > I
> > saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as
> > another -
> > are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended? Avery
> > set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
> > recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I
> > need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
> > safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from
> > Avery or Vans? Are the!
> > re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
> >
> > Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
As another(A&P with IA and EAA TC) plus sometimes professional mechanic
for the nation's top regional airline last year and an all too sometime
RV builder, I second whole heartedly endorse Mike Crow's observation
from ATC as posted by Larry Rosen. My tool selection for the RV-10 is
far more vast than even the tools commonly used at work. Both have
their advantages. Often builders are quick to write an early check and
make the quick selection process simplified. Make your own list and
check it twice.
I have found the use of pneumatic tools indispensible. Larry won me over
with his Hardhat graphic on his website with a Pneumatic Jackhammer
operator. I would seldom resort to an electric powered hand tool -
since. I formerly and repetitively visited the late Boeing Surplus
store in Renton, WA which is now only a fond memory. Ebay is amazing
when you make a comprehensive list. Tungsten Bucking bars are the most
valued and borrowed tools I possess. Get some practical experience and
ask other builders their input. Knowledge of item A vs. item B. often
provides products which simplify the build and become a valued asset. I
personally have two Sioux reversible drills which I love.
I have the utmost respect for those of you who continue to use a
mechanical hand squeezer or hand dimpler rather than the C214 style or
DRDT-2 dimpler (which has plans available). Randy Debauw, builder of
the first completed RV-10, enlightened me to the advantage of two or
three used drills (Pre-chucked with the correct bit size for time
efficiency). If you scan his file on Tim's site you may get a glimpse of
the end of his workbench and down under the countertop a foot where more
than a dozen such gems resided until needed. Several squeezers (Preset)
makes the assembly a true pleasure. One vise mounted and the other free
to roam in your hand. I have been surprised that more of you aren't
willing to part with such tools after the build is complete. There is a
lesson in there somewhere.
Doug - Take the time to understand the process and the tools. Seek
multiple opinions. You're going to love this group of friendly builders
with a common goal and passion.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
Mike Crow, one of the my instructors at Alexander Technical Center
posted this on the RV List back in 2004 so some of the specific info on
model numbers may be out of date and Avery and Cleaveland may have
changed there offerings, but IMHO it is great information. If you are
considering purchasing your tools in Kit form, IMHO this is great
advice. Below is what Mike wrote. It is not an exact quote and I will
add some of my comments in ().
To introduce myself first I am an A&P mechanic with an IA. I work as a
Lead Mechanic for a major air line. For the past two years I have worked
part time at the Alexander Technical Center at Griffin GA. as an
instructor on their quick start tail assembly program.
http://www.buildtofly.com/. (taking some sort of training class IMHO is
invaluable, even if it only a weekend sheet metal class)
I have been involved in over 100 tail kits. I have worked on the 6,7,8,9
and 10 kits; I am also building a RV8A myself.
As each class begins I ask if the student have already purchased their
tools. My hopes are that they have not as we have a good selection of
tools to try from the different manufacturers. The ones that have gotten
their tools before coming often say I wish I had gotten this tool or
that tool instead. In the following I will try to give you a list and
suggestions of tools that I have learned over the past two years. Please
keep in mind that this information is my opinion and mine alone. Others
may agree or disagree.
There are two major suppliers of tools for the RV tail kits that I
recommend Avery and Cleaveland both are RV builders and are good and
honest people to do business with.
I would buy a tool kit from Avery or Cleaveland to begin with. Both will
allow you to add or subtract the tools you want to the kit. I will use
both their 2004 catalogs as a guide. (The information is updated for
Cleaveland's 2005 catalog)
First if you buy Cleaveland's kit I would buy their complete airframe
tool package p/n Comp-Kit 05.
I would subtract from the kit:
BBRP-48 Back Riveting Plate-It is a nice plate but too small in my
opinion. (Cleaveland must be listening they now have an optional 4"x16"
back riveting plate. Get the bigger plate)
CF-80 C-Frame Riveting Tool-More about C-Frames later but if you get
this one also order their C-From Table Kit CTF-48
ASRD-14 Air Swivel Regulator- has been changed it now has a click type
knob. This is the type regulator you will want.
I would add to the kit:
I would suggest the 3X Rivet gun- The 2x works good on the 3/32 rivet
but not well on the 1/8 rivet. Get a 3x to work well on the 1/8 and turn
down the pressure a little to do the 3/32 or better yet buy one of
each. The 3X is standard in the kit.
DP-8 Drive Pin Punches- This is a nice punch set you could get by with
only the 3/32 and 1/8 which come in the kit. (you will be removing a few
bad rivets)
LBL-13 BOELUBE Do not drill lead without it.
3MW-77S6 Light deburring wheel- You get a rougher one in the kit you
need both. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a grinder and install
these wheels.
3MP-47 Scotch-Brite pads-you will need plenty. The kit now has 5 pads.
DIE509-10 #10 SCREW DIMPLE DIES-You will need these to dimple for the
screws for the lead weights
SNYT-405 4in THIN NOSE YOKE- You are going to need a thin nose and a 4in
nose get them both in one.
SNYF-251 2.5in FLANGE NOSE YOKE- There is places where nothing else is
going to reach.
RSMS-75 SWIVEL FLUSH SET WITH RUBBER GUARD-You must cut some of the
rubber down or you rivets will set too high
CLP-20 CLEKO PLIERS-One is not enough.
CLC-50 1/2in CLEKO CLAMP-You get 4. You need at least 10.
CLC-100 1in CLEKO CLAMP-You get 4. You need at least 10.
CC120-30 120 DEGREE DIES FOR 1/8 POP RIVETS-You use a lot of CS4-4 on
the floor boards of the fuselage they are 120 degrees.
For our RV10 friends RSB-12 12in back rivet set-You will need this to
back rivet the stiffeners on the elevators.
The RV10 will also need BBRV10 SPECIAL BUCKING BAR-You will need this
for the elevators.
I would buy from Avery to complete the kit from Cleaveland 575 hand
seamer 3-1/2 jaw-I use this to squeezing the trailing edge of the
trim tabs.
550 3/32 vise grip dimplers- several places on ribs this is needed.
1046 SPEED DEBURRING AND COUNTERSINKING TOOL
23904 4 PC. HOOK AND PICK SET-You will need a pick many times for
aligning skins (Harbor Freight)
If you buy an Avery tool kit, I would buy the RV-3,-4-6-7-8-9and -10
builders tool kit.
I would subtract from the kit
1001 22in hand rivet and dimpling tool-it is there c-frame tool a good
tool but see below about a c-frame tool
10765 POLYETHYLENE DIMPLING MALLET-Goes with the c-frame tool. If you
get the c-frame tool get the mallet. (Harbor Freight)
500 FLUTING PLIERS- You need a pair of fluting pliers I like
Cleaveland's a lot better.
1042 EDGE ROLLING TOOL- I can not get this tool to work for me. It could
just be me.
3507 3M RIVETING TAPE-Works well. If you use it take it off after use it
is real hard to get off later. Use Scotch Removable Magic Tape works as
well and much cheaper.
9885 ANGLE DRILL KIT- Nice kit not needed for the tail kit could be used
later. (ebay)
1054 NBR 8 SCREW COUNTERSINK CUTTER-Not needed for the tail kit.
25500 SWIVEL HEAD POP RIVET TOOL-If you must use a hand pop tool use
Cleaveland's PRS-20 it is much easier to squeeze.
I would add to the kit:
7760 4in NO HOLE YOKE
7755 LONGERON YOKE
811 RIVETING TAPE-Scotch removable magic tape.
1003 BOELUBE Do not drill lead without it.
200 CLECO PLIERS-One is not enough.
1661 Light deburring wheel- You get a rougher one in the kit you need
both. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a grinder and install these
wheels.
23904 4 PC. HOOK AND PICK SET-You will need a pick many times for
aligning skins.
For the RV9 42120 SPECIAL 120 DEGREE COUNTERSINK-Used where you use
CS4-4 rivets on the elevators.
For the RV10 630 RV10 ELEVATOR BUCKING BAR
I would by from Cleaveland to complete the Avery kit:.
3MP-47 Scotch-Brite pads-you will need plenty
DIE509-10 #10 SCREW DIMPLE DIES-You will need these to dimple for the
screws for the lead weights
EF-60 EDGE FORMER-Needed at seams
HS-30 OFFSET HAND SEAMER-Used many places
FP-200 FLUTING PLIERS-Used to straighten ribs
For the RV9 DIECS4-4 120 DEGREE DIES FOR 1/8 POP RIVETS-You use a lot of
CS4-4 on the skin of your elevators they are 120 degrees.
For our RV10 friends RSB-12 12in back rivet set-You will need this to
back rivet the stiffeners on the elevators.
Tools that would be nice to have:
PNEUMATIC SQUEEZER- In my opinion a must have. Get a 214 style. Make
sure to get an adjustable set holder for it.
PNEUMATIC POP RIVET GUN-Go to harbor freight or such and get one for
around $40.00
LIGHTWEIGHT HOSE KITS-Makes it a lot easier to handle drills and rivet
guns
TATCO HAND SQUEEZER WITH 2in YOKE-Makes it a lot easier to dimple all
those ribs (Not necessary, I like Avery's squeezer)
C-FRAME DIMPLER
EXPERIMENTAL AERO
I brought a DRDT dimplier and installed it at Alexander Technical Center
to try it out in January this year.
Boy was that a mistake. There is no way I am getting it back. It is the
best I have used for dimpling. It gives best dimples; it is consistent,
quiet and a one man operation.
There is no way I am going back to the old c-frame hammer method. Now if
I need to dimple I pack up what I have and drive 32 miles even though I
have a hammer c-Frame dimplier at home. It is that much better. They now
sell the DRDT-2 which has some improvement over the -1.
Mike Crowe
Doug Gee wrote:
<Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
>
> I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many
hours reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very
helpful in trying to comprehend the scope of this project.
Message 14
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| Subject: | RV-10 kit for sale |
Timing in Life Is Everything
That being said I am putting my Quick build RV-10 kit for sale
Empennage Kit was professionally supervised by a master RV.builder in the
Pittsburgh area
Wings are about 90% done, comes with auto pilot Gretz Heated Pitot Tube,
wiring harness for strobes lots of stuff
Tools are for sale.
I also have dual Chelton EFIS for sale minus the Gadahrs unit due to
unscrupulous business men AKA crooks.
http://www.cheltonflightsystems.com/EX/
This is not a hardship case I took over the 70 year old family business, and
its not going to falter on my watch. I am also building a lake house 125
miles from home on the weekends. I live in Doylestown Pa north east of
Philadelphia, DYL is our home airport.
If interested email at josarnold@msn.com and I will send pictures of work
completed our what ever you need, must be picked up. You know what it is
worth make me an offer.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
In all fairness, I should be more specific with the one I had
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93458 there
are a couple others and I don't know if they work any better than the one I
had.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: <rv@thelefflers.com>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Re: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>
> They must be spiffed on the warranty sales. Recently every time I buy
> something from HF, the one gal discounts the unit by the cost of the
> warranty extension.
>>
>> From: "Pascal" <rv10builder@verizon.net>
>> Date: 2008/03/21 Fri AM 10:27:23 EST
>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>>
>>
>> get the extended warranty however, mine broke after 150 pop rivets.
>> Pascal
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@cableone.net>
>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:00 PM
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Doug,
>> > In addition to all of the other tools mentions, I'd HIGHLY recommend
>> > a
>> > pneumatic pop rivet gun from Harbor Freight. Mostly useful when you
>> > start
>> > on the fuselage floors so watch for the frequent times it's available
>> > for
>> > $29. Best cheap tool you'll ever get and it's a lifesaver. Same tool
>> > is
>> > available on e-bay and other stores but I've never seen it as cheap as
>> > Harbor Frieght.
>> >
>> > Marcus
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Gee
>> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 8:42 PM
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>> >
>> > <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
>> >
>> > I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many
>> > hours
>> > reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very
>> > helpful
>> > in trying to comprehend the scope of this project. Despite all that,
>> > I'm
>> > ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the
>> > dumb
>> > questions and thank you for your patience and help. Now for the first
>> > set
>> > of dumb questions - I need tools.
>> >
>> > I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a
>> > recommended
>> > increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit? A
>> > friend
>> > recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the
>> > rivet
>> > gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one? I have seen
>> > posts
>> > recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one?
>> > Do I
>> > need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I
>> > buy?
>> > If
>> > I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes
>> > for?
>> > I
>> > saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as
>> > another -
>> > are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking bars recommended?
>> > Avery
>> > set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one? I see some
>> > recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes
>> > do I
>> > need? Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one? What size(s)
>> > safety wire are needed? Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them
>> > from
>> > Avery or Vans? Are the!
>> > re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
>> >
>> > Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Mogas / Avgas Trivia |
Tips on pumping gas.
I don't know what you guys are paying for gasoline.... but here in
California we are also paying higher, up to $3.50 per gallon. But my
line of work is in petroleum for about 31 years now, so here are some
tricks to get more of your money's worth for every gallon..
Here at the Kinder Morgan Pipeline where I work in San Jose, CA we
deliver about 4 million gallons in a 24-hour period thru the pipeline.
One day is diesel the next day is jet fuel, and gasoline, regular and
premium grades. We have 34-storage tanks here with a total capacity of
16,800,000 gallons.
Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when the
ground temperature is still cold. Remember that all service stations
have their storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground
the more dense the gasoline, when it gets warmer gasoline expands, so
buying in the afternoon or in the evening....your gallon is not exactly
a gallon. In the petroleum business, the specific gravity and the
temperature of the gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, ethanol and other
petroleum products plays an important role.
A 1-degree rise in temperature is a big deal for this business. But the
service stations do not have temperature compensation at the pumps.
When you're filling up do not squeeze the trigger of the nozzle to a
fast mode. If you look you will see that the trigger has three
(3)stages: low, middle, and high. In slow mode you should be pumping on
low speed, thereby minimizing the vapors that are created while you are
pumping. All hoses at the pump have a vapor return. If you are pumping
on the fast rate, some other liquid that goes to your tank becomes
vapor. Those vapors are being sucked up and back into the underground
storage tank so you're getting less worth for your money.
One of the most important tips is to fill up when your gas tank is HALF
FULL or HALF EMPTY. The reason for this is, the more gas you have in
your tank the less air occupying its empty space. Gasoline evaporates
faster than you can imagine. Gasoline storage tanks have an internal
floating roof. This roof serves as zero clearance between the gas and
the atmosphere, so it minimizes the evaporation. Unlike service
stations, here where I work, every truck that we load is temperature
compensated so that every gallon is actually the exact amount.
Another reminder, if there is a gasoline truck pumping into the storage
tanks when you stop to buy gas, DO NOT fill up--most likely the gasoline
is being stirred up as the gas is being delivered, and you might pick up
some of the dirt that normally settles on the bottom. Hope this will
help you get the most value for your money.
DO SHARE THESE TIPS WITH OTHERS!
WHERE TO BUY USA GAS, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW. READ ON
Gas rationing in the 80's worked even though we grumbled about it. It
might even be good for us! The Saudis are boycotting American goods. We
should return the favor.
An interesting thought is to boycott their GAS.
Every time you fill up the car, you can avoid putting more money into
the coffers of Saudi Arabia. Just buy from gas companies that don't
import their oil from the Saudis.
Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling that every time I fill-up
the tank, I am sending my money to people who are trying to kill me, my
family, and my friends.
I thought it might be interesting for you to know which oil companies
are the best to buy gas from and which major companies import Middle
Eastern oil.
These companies import Middle Eastern oil:
Shell........................... 205,742,000 barrels
Chevron/Texaco......... 144,332,000 barrels
Exxon/Mobil............... 130,082,000 barrels
Marathon/Speedway... 117,740,000 barrels
Amoco............................62,231,000 barrels
Citgo gas is from South America, from a Dictator who hates Americans. If
you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18 BILLION!
(oil is now $90 - $100 a barrel
Here are some large companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil:
Sunoco..................0 barrels
Conoco..................0 barrels
Sinclair..................0 barrels
BP/Phillips.............0 barrels
Hess......................0 barrels
ARC0.....................0 barrels
If you go to Sunoco.com , you will get a list of the station locations
near you.
All of this information is available from the Department of Energy and
each is required to state where they get their oil and how much they are
importing.
But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of gas
buyers. It's really simple to do.
Now, don't wimp out at this point.... keep reading and I'll explain how
simple it is to reach millions of people!!
I'm sending this note to about thirty people. If each of you send it
to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)...and those 300 send it to at
least
ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000) .. and so on, by the time the message
reaches the sixth generation of people, we will have reached over THREE
MILLION consumers !!!!!!! If those three million get excited and pass
this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have been
contacted!
If it goes one level further, you guessed it ..... THREE HUND RED
MILLION PEOPLE!!!
Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. How long would all
that take?
I got my first hand experience with this gasoline distribution industry
in the Spring/Summer of 1973. It was the result of OPEC retaliation for
a US led Grain embargo action. We opened a series of Closed "Douglas"
Service Stations throughout Oregon to gain access to a Department of
Energy AVGAS restriction which for a short time became a total loss of
Avgas at the end of the Olympic Pipeline Distribution Chain. In those
days we had Red/Green/Blue and Yes - Purple Avgas. Our Oregon State
Governor enacted what became known historically as "Odd/Even" refueling
policy. Fortunately I had a friend who had a brother up the food
change at Continental Oil Company who made a phone call.
This post brings back memories and potential for the months ahead. AOPA
has just posted tips for conserving Avgas. Hope you find it of personal
value.
John Cox
#600
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
Boy, Doug, you really hit a resonant chord with RV10 builders!
In no particular order, here are a few preferences - opinion only:
Ebay is a great source when you know what you want.
We've had good luck with Cleaveland tools, but are tending to buy
cheap stuff (like Clecos) from the Yard (good folks, but inexpensive
so caveat emptor), and other stuff (especially drill bits) from
Avery. Their customer support is superb and quality is high. Harbor
Freight has some good deals among the rest of their stuff. We have
three of their die grinders at an average price of less than $10 on
sale, and they continue to work very well. Probably at least one is
necessary. Carbide bits cost more (each!) than the die grinders;
cutoff wheels like those in Van's kit are cheap and last pretty well.
Get a few extras. Necessary for cutting plexiglas and fiberglass.
One of the most used tools is a grinder/polisher fitted with coarse
and fine Scotchbrite wheels. A movable stand al la Tony Binegelis'
book "The Sportplane Builder" but smaller and with just this one tool
on it with and lots of clearance around the wheels would really be
well worth the effort. Select a polisher with lots of clearance
around the wheels (no guards, long shaft). Did I says lots of
clearance around the wheels? Check Harbor freight for this item;
ensure that the diameters of shaft and wheels match.
Consider buying several pneumatic drills, as small and as fast-
turning as possible. By accident, we wound up with two Chicago
Pneumatics (Ebay); we would like to have three. Get one of the new Li-
ion powered 1/2" drills for bigger holes. They are really a lot
better than the rechargeable electrics of few years ago. Our new
Makita is compact, powerful and relatively cheap (Home Depot). "Next
time" (Ha!) we would try using reamers instead of drills for most of
the match drilling work to get a cleaner hole, but drills work fine
with adequate deburring. Get a set of Good cobalt drill bits in both
number and fractional sizes - you won't regret it. Cheap (rapidly
dulled) bits are a real pain mostly when drilling steel, especially
stainless steel (firewall). Then get a half dozen or so (buy more as
needed) #40 and #30 bits, and a "few" #27, 21, 19, 12, and 3/16"
bits. You will really like having extra long bits in #30, 40, and 12,
and the medium long ones in #30 and 40.
Get awls (2) for aligning holes.
Angle drill. Ouch! expensive and require skill to operate but,
unfortunately, necessary. Try Steinair. Get pretty much the same
drills as above, but fewer of them and in more lengths. Stubby bits
are essential, but the longest bit that will fit gives you the best
directional accuracy. Don't do like we did and buy surplus from Ebay
unless you really know what you're doing.
You can never have too many clecos, especially silver 3/32" size, but
also 1/8" copper ones. Get a dozen or so in the black and gold sizes,
too. Also get the cleco clamps - a dozen each would be about right.
The longer ones tend to be more useful, so i you're really on a tight
budget get just the longer ones. Maybe you can borrow clecos, but I
think that's a bad idea. Two cleco pliers are really handy,
especially when you have help/instruction -and you will!
You will need a variety of other clamps, especially small C-clamps.
Get (Ebay) a dozen or so of the good ones that have a plastic pad on
one jaw. You will need long-reach clamps, and, for gluing the doors,
some big spring clamps or similar. DON'T skimp here! (Ask me how I
know...) You will find you don't have the right clamp a lot of the
time - mostly because the reach is too short. Bite the bullet and buy
what you need locally. It's much cheaper in the long run.
3X rivet gun of good quality. I'm happy with my ancient Chicago
Pneumatic. Don't go undersized - it's a pain! Bite the bullet and buy
the different sizes and shapes and lengths of sets, including a back
rivet set. Do not buy the back rivet plates the vendors sell. They're
too small. Get a 1/4" steel plate. Mine was a gift from Deems Davis,
and is about 11" X 17". It's especially nice for riveting the tail
cone with the Clecoes inserted from the inside of the cone. Don't get
the swiveling flush rivet set - the solid unit gives much better
control. (Ask me how I know...)
Get a good pop riveter and a cheap one. Aggressively grind the cheap
one down to get into tight places. We never used the pneumatic
(Harbor Freight) pop riveter we bought - not worth the effort to set
up and learn.
IMHO, you will be well served with the smallest rivet squeezer
available to get into tight spots, and a generous set of yokes
including a must-have longeron yoke and a 3" thin-nose yoke. Get the
smallest yoke available, too. A pneumatic squeezer is exceptionally
handy for both dimpling and squeezing. Avery's pneumatic and manual
squeezers take the same yokes, as do others', I believe.
<blatant commercial message>
Marlys and I have a DRDT-2 dimpler that we really love. We don't
have a C-frame and have not missed it. This particular DRDT-2 was
featured in the October 2006 issue of Kitplanes. We're all done
dimpling large sheet metal pieces now, though, so it's for sale. I'll
post about it if that's allowed.
<end commercial message>
If you want a new DRDT-2, Paul Merems of Experimental Aero 12351 E.
Lou Bock Pl. Tucson, AZ 85749 stands out among a very good set of
vendors for his helpfulness and the quality of his stuff.
Bucking bars - the commercial ones all tend to be too light. You will
probably have to make at least some of them. The heaviest bar that
will fit is best. Avery #620 gets a lot of use as does the Yard's
#15053. Tungsten bars are scandalously expensive. Were I to start
over, I'd buy them in a heartbeat.
Compressor - If you have 220V available or can get it, buy an oil
bath unit made for 220 only. They're more powerful and no more
expensive than the biggest 120V units. Buy the good rubber hoses if
you can.
Drill press - Don't go home without one! It's nice to have a crank
height adjustment, but our old used commercial unit serves loyally
with out it.
Band saw - very handy. Expensive.
Table saw with carbide combination blade - exceptionally handy.
Expensive. Dangerous!
Grinder (stone wheels, not Scotchbrite) - probably necessary, but cheap.
Sander with vertical wheel and horizontal belt - Very handy, not too
expensive, but probably not necessary.
D/A grinder. Very useful for the coarse fiberglass work. 3M sanding
boards are pricey as can be, but worth it. Local body shop supply was
our source.
Pair of trammel points for layout. Cheap. Handy. Flexible. Best way
to measure hole distances that need duplicating.
Large and small draftsman's compasses set to good steel rules are
really nice.
Rules of lengths 6" (several are handy, we love the little Starrett
rules), 12" and 18" (to fit combination square) and at least one
long one (3 or 4 feet) are very rice to have. For the longer ones, a
good steel straightedge would be an acceptable substitute.Rules get
pricey in a hurry. Ebay.
Bubble levels can sometimes substitute for straightedges, and you
will need at least one level.
A set of engineer's squares (cheap is OK - even the cheap ones are
pretty good) gets a lot of use. Necessary.
Cheap plastic drafting templates (various circle sizes) and squares
are very useful and surprisingly accurate.
I guess I can't postpone working on door fit any more...
Enjoy!
John Ackerman
40458
in fiberglas purgatory
Do Not Archive
On Mar 20, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Doug Gee wrote:
> textiles.com>
>
> I have been following this list for the past year and have spent
> many hours reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site -
> very very helpful in trying to comprehend the scope of this
> project. Despite all that, I'm ordering a tail kit and would like
> to apologize in advance for all the dumb questions and thank you
> for your patience and help. Now for the first set of dumb
> questions - I need tools.
>
> I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a
> recommended increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this
> a good kit? A friend recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to
> sub this brand for the rivet gun in the kit? I have a choice of 2x
> or 3x - which one? I have seen posts recommending a pneumatic
> squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one? Do I need the hand
> squeezer if I get the pneumatic? What yokes should I buy? If I
> buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller? What are "no hole" yokes
> for? I saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as
> well as another - are the Avery clecos good? Are tungsten bucking
> bars recommended? Avery set? Do I need a torque wrench - if so,
> which one? I see some recommendations to ream the holes before
> riveting - if so, what sizes do I need? Safety wire twisters - is
> there a recommended one? What size(s) safety wire are needed?
> Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from Avery or Vans? Are
> the!
> re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?
>
> Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Manifold pressure port |
Can anybody give me a hint as to where the hook up is for the manifold
pressure on a IO 540 E4 A5 engine? Looks like there should be a 1/4
nipple to connect the hose that goes to the sensor. I can't seem to
find the port in the overhaul manual.
Thanks in advance.
And to the gentleman getting the tools. Get the good springback dimple
dies. Worth their weight in gold.
Fred Williams
40515
In the "now where does this wire go? " part of finishing.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Manifold pressure port |
Fred,
You can pull your MP from the #5 cylinder intake port. There should be a
gallery plug (1/8 pipe)right under the oil drain back fitting by the
rocker box cover.
Allen
BPE, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
Williams, M.D.
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 1:33 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Manifold pressure port
<drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
Can anybody give me a hint as to where the hook up is for the manifold
pressure on a IO 540 E4 A5 engine? Looks like there should be a 1/4
nipple to connect the hose that goes to the sensor. I can't seem to
find the port in the overhaul manual.
Thanks in advance.
And to the gentleman getting the tools. Get the good springback dimple
dies. Worth their weight in gold.
Fred Williams
40515
In the "now where does this wire go? " part of finishing.
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Mogas / Avgas Trivia |
Mogas / Avgas Triviawhy are you shouting at us. Font down for god's
sake.
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Cox
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 12:06 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Mogas / Avgas Trivia
Tips on pumping gas.
I don't know what you guys are paying for gasoline.... but here in
California we are also paying higher, up to $3.50 per gallon. But my
line of work is in petroleum for about 31 years now, so here are some
tricks to get more of your money's worth for every gallon..
Here at the Kinder Morgan Pipeline where I work in San Jose, CA we
deliver about 4 million gallons in a 24-hour period thru the pipeline.
One day is diesel the next day is jet fuel, and gasoline, regular and
premium grades. We have 34-storage tanks here with a total capacity of
16,800,000 gallons.
Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when the
ground temperature is still cold. Remember that all service stations
have their storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground
the more dense the gasoline, when it gets warmer gasoline expands, so
buying in the afternoon or in the evening....your gallon is not exactly
a gallon. In the petroleum business, the specific gravity and the
temperature of the gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, ethanol and other
petroleum products plays an important role.
A 1-degree rise in temperature is a big deal for this business. But
the service stations do not have temperature compensation at the pumps.
When you're filling up do not squeeze the trigger of the nozzle to a
fast mode. If you look you will see that the trigger has three
(3)stages: low, middle, and high. In slow mode you should be pumping on
low speed, thereby minimizing the vapors that are created while you are
pumping. All hoses at the pump have a vapor return. If you are pumping
on the fast rate, some other liquid that goes to your tank becomes
vapor. Those vapors are being sucked up and back into the underground
storage tank so you're getting less worth for your money.
One of the most important tips is to fill up when your gas tank is
HALF FULL or HALF EMPTY. The reason for this is, the more gas you have
in your tank the less air occupying its empty space. Gasoline evaporates
faster than you can imagine. Gasoline storage tanks have an internal
floating roof. This roof serves as zero clearance between the gas and
the atmosphere, so it minimizes the evaporation. Unlike service
stations, here where I work, every truck that we load is temperature
compensated so that every gallon is actually the exact amount.
Another reminder, if there is a gasoline truck pumping into the
storage tanks when you stop to buy gas, DO NOT fill up--most likely the
gasoline is being stirred up as the gas is being delivered, and you
might pick up some of the dirt that normally settles on the bottom.
Hope this will help you get the most value for your money.
DO SHARE THESE TIPS WITH OTHERS!
WHERE TO BUY USA GAS, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW. READ ON
Gas rationing in the 80's worked even though we grumbled about it. It
might even be good for us! The Saudis are boycotting American goods. We
should return the favor.
An interesting thought is to boycott their GAS.
Every time you fill up the car, you can avoid putting more money into
the coffers of Saudi Arabia. Just buy from gas companies that don't
import their oil from the Saudis.
Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling that every time I fill-up
the tank, I am sending my money to people who are trying to kill me, my
family, and my friends.
I thought it might be interesting for you to know which oil companies
are the best to buy gas from and which major companies import Middle
Eastern oil.
These companies import Middle Eastern oil:
Shell........................... 205,742,000 barrels
Chevron/Texaco......... 144,332,000 barrels
Exxon/Mobil............... 130,082,000 barrels
Marathon/Speedway... 117,740,000 barrels
Amoco............................62,231,000 barrels
Citgo gas is from South America, from a Dictator who hates Americans.
If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18
BILLION! (oil is now $90 - $100 a barrel
Here are some large companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil:
Sunoco..................0 barrels
Conoco..................0 barrels
Sinclair..................0 barrels
BP/Phillips.............0 barrels
Hess......................0 barrels
ARC0.....................0 barrels
If you go to Sunoco.com , you will get a list of the station locations
near you.
All of this information is available from the Department of Energy and
each is required to state where they get their oil and how much they are
importing.
But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of gas
buyers. It's really simple to do.
Now, don't wimp out at this point.... keep reading and I'll explain
how simple it is to reach millions of people!!
I'm sending this note to about thirty people. If each of you send it
to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)...and those 300 send it to at
least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000) .. and so on, by the time the
message reaches the sixth generation of people, we will have reached
over THREE MILLION consumers !!!!!!! If those three million get excited
and pass this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have
been contacted!
If it goes one level further, you guessed it ..... THREE HUND RED
MILLION PEOPLE!!!
Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. How long would
all that take?
I got my first hand experience with this gasoline distribution
industry in the Spring/Summer of 1973. It was the result of OPEC
retaliation for a US led Grain embargo action. We opened a series of
Closed "Douglas" Service Stations throughout Oregon to gain access to a
Department of Energy AVGAS restriction which for a short time became a
total loss of Avgas at the end of the Olympic Pipeline Distribution
Chain. In those days we had Red/Green/Blue and Yes - Purple Avgas. Our
Oregon State Governor enacted what became known historically as
"Odd/Even" refueling policy. Fortunately I had a friend who had a
brother up the food change at Continental Oil Company who made a phone
call.
This post brings back memories and potential for the months ahead.
AOPA has just posted tips for conserving Avgas. Hope you find it of
personal value.
John Cox
#600
Message 21
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| Subject: | Blatant commercial message - DRDT-2 for sale |
Marlys and I have a DRDT-2 dimpler that we really like. We're all
done dimpling large sheet metal pieces now, though, and are not
likely to build another airplane, so it's for sale.
This particular DRDT-2 was featured in the October 2006 issue of
Kitplanes. It's in fine condition - I'm not sure that one RV10 is
enough to break it in. :-)
Sale would include a carpeted support table per Paul's plans if you
want to pay the shipping rather than make one (it's bulky), and the
paperwork it came with (plans, instructions).
New price is $350 from Experimental Aero. Best acceptable offer by
April 1 takes it; I will sell immediately for $250.
You pay actual shipping cost including insurance; I box it up at my
cost and labor. $25 discount if you pick it up instead.
Payment via paypal, Cashier's check, money order , etc. Personal
check is OK, but I will wait to ship until it clears. I'm not set up
to take credit cards.
We're located in Prescott, AZ 86305. Phone is 928-759-9279. Email:
is johnag5b@cableone.net.
If you want a new DRDT-2, Paul Merems of Experimental Aero 12351 E.
Lou Bock Pl. Tucson, AZ 85749 stands out among a very good set of
RV-10 vendors for his helpfulness and the quality of his stuff. His
website is:
http://www.experimentalaero.com/DRDT-2.htm
and there's a good description of the dimpler there.
John Ackerman RV10 #40458
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
Doug,
I went with the Avery Kit recommended for the RV-10. No regrets. With hindsight,
I could have saved by shopping around on certain items, but I didn't know I
needed them until Avery put them in the kit.
I got the 2x gun and it works fine. As an option, Avery suggested a keyless chuck
for the Sioux drill - I'm glad I got it. After squeezing a few rivets by hand,
you will love a pneumatic one. Definitely get the Longeron Yoke, although
"tall" squeezer heads are an alternative (look at Avery's Deluxe Set).
Stuff you won't find in the kits:
Clamps, clamps, clamps.
Grinder for the Scotchbrite wheel - do NOT use the stone wheels on aluminum.
A belt/disc sander - works great on aluminum.
My Craftsman table top drill press is a must - especially for countersinking those
long pieces.
A band saw is not essential but I wish I had gotten something better than a Ryobi
$99 special at Home Depot.
A good table mounted vise.
A Dremel kit is almost essential.
A pneumatic cleco gun is my favorite luxury.
Sorry for rambling,
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171561#171561
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
I definitely have to go with John on the tungsten bucking bars. Just
the little one that Stein sells can now replace about 5 that I often
use. Well worth the money.
One word on Avery and Cleveland. They are both expensive and you can
find stuff cheaper...BUT...their tools are the best quality I have
used, from dimple dies and drill bits to squeezers. As far as I know,
a Sioux drill is a Sioux drill, so go for where you can get it
cheaper, but when it comes to stuff that isn't a specific brand, these
two companies are great to buy from. Believe me, I have tried quite a
few of them, and the more I try, the more I like Avery and Cleveland.
Speaking of Cleveland, as was already mentioned, their quick change
drill system is ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC, but make sure you can get your
original chuck off your drill. I have only been able to get the chuck
off the Sious drills (and don't tell anybody, but I have destroyed 2
other drills trying to do the same to them, but they weren't Sioux).
When it comes to the actual tools, there are probably as many opinions
and preferences as there are RV-10 panel layouts. The Pneumatic
Squeezer is fantastic, but far from indispensible, IMHO. There are
many rivets I will use a hand squeezer on long before the pneumatic
because I have more control with the hand squeezer.
As John said, make your own list and check it twice. There is no one-
size-fits-all tool kit. As I often suggest to people, start with
budget (being realistic, of course), make a list and put the "must
haves" at the top, then the "really think I should have", then the
"wouldn't mind if I end up with" at the bottom. If you are building
alone and expect to take several years, start small and use ground
shipping. If you are full-time building and hope to be flying by
Oshkosh '08 (dream on!), then get more to start with and save the
overnight bills.
All IMHO.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Mar 21, 2008, at 11:53 AM, John W. Cox wrote:
> <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
> As another(A&P with IA and EAA TC) plus sometimes professional
> mechanic
> for the nation's top regional airline last year and an all too
> sometime
> RV builder, I second whole heartedly endorse Mike Crow's observation
> from ATC as posted by Larry Rosen. My tool selection for the RV-10 is
> far more vast than even the tools commonly used at work. Both have
> their advantages. Often builders are quick to write an early check
> and
> make the quick selection process simplified. Make your own list and
> check it twice.
>
> I have found the use of pneumatic tools indispensible. Larry won me
> over
> with his Hardhat graphic on his website with a Pneumatic Jackhammer
> operator. I would seldom resort to an electric powered hand tool -
> since. I formerly and repetitively visited the late Boeing Surplus
> store in Renton, WA which is now only a fond memory. Ebay is amazing
> when you make a comprehensive list. Tungsten Bucking bars are the most
> valued and borrowed tools I possess. Get some practical experience and
> ask other builders their input. Knowledge of item A vs. item B. often
> provides products which simplify the build and become a valued
> asset. I
> personally have two Sioux reversible drills which I love.
>
> I have the utmost respect for those of you who continue to use a
> mechanical hand squeezer or hand dimpler rather than the C214 style or
> DRDT-2 dimpler (which has plans available). Randy Debauw, builder of
> the first completed RV-10, enlightened me to the advantage of two or
> three used drills (Pre-chucked with the correct bit size for time
> efficiency). If you scan his file on Tim's site you may get a
> glimpse of
> the end of his workbench and down under the countertop a foot where
> more
> than a dozen such gems resided until needed. Several squeezers
> (Preset)
> makes the assembly a true pleasure. One vise mounted and the other
> free
> to roam in your hand. I have been surprised that more of you aren't
> willing to part with such tools after the build is complete. There
> is a
> lesson in there somewhere.
>
> Doug - Take the time to understand the process and the tools. Seek
> multiple opinions. You're going to love this group of friendly
> builders
> with a common goal and passion.
>
> John Cox
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:31 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>
>
> Mike Crow, one of the my instructors at Alexander Technical Center
> posted this on the RV List back in 2004 so some of the specific
> info on
>
> model numbers may be out of date and Avery and Cleaveland may have
> changed there offerings, but IMHO it is great information. If you are
> considering purchasing your tools in Kit form, IMHO this is great
> advice. Below is what Mike wrote. It is not an exact quote and I will
> add some of my comments in ().
>
> To introduce myself first I am an A&P mechanic with an IA. I work as a
> Lead Mechanic for a major air line. For the past two years I have
> worked
>
> part time at the Alexander Technical Center at Griffin GA. as an
> instructor on their quick start tail assembly program.
> http://www.buildtofly.com/. (taking some sort of training class
> IMHO is
>
> invaluable, even if it only a weekend sheet metal class)
>
> I have been involved in over 100 tail kits. I have worked on the
> 6,7,8,9
>
> and 10 kits; I am also building a RV8A myself.
>
> As each class begins I ask if the student have already purchased their
> tools. My hopes are that they have not as we have a good selection of
> tools to try from the different manufacturers. The ones that have
> gotten
>
> their tools before coming often say I wish I had gotten this tool or
> that tool instead. In the following I will try to give you a list and
> suggestions of tools that I have learned over the past two years.
> Please
>
> keep in mind that this information is my opinion and mine alone.
> Others
> may agree or disagree.
>
> There are two major suppliers of tools for the RV tail kits that I
> recommend Avery and Cleaveland both are RV builders and are good
> and
>
> honest people to do business with.
>
> I would buy a tool kit from Avery or Cleaveland to begin with. Both
> will
>
> allow you to add or subtract the tools you want to the kit. I will use
> both their 2004 catalogs as a guide. (The information is updated for
> Cleaveland's 2005 catalog)
>
> First if you buy Cleaveland's kit I would buy their complete airframe
> tool package p/n Comp-Kit 05.
>
> I would subtract from the kit:
>
> BBRP-48 Back Riveting Plate-It is a nice plate but too small in my
> opinion. (Cleaveland must be listening they now have an optional
> 4"x16"
> back riveting plate. Get the bigger plate)
>
> CF-80 C-Frame Riveting Tool-More about C-Frames later but if you get
> this one also order their C-From Table Kit CTF-48
>
> ASRD-14 Air Swivel Regulator- has been changed it now has a click type
> knob. This is the type regulator you will want.
>
> I would add to the kit:
>
> I would suggest the 3X Rivet gun- The 2x works good on the 3/32 rivet
> but not well on the 1/8 rivet. Get a 3x to work well on the 1/8 and
> turn
>
> down the pressure a little to do the 3/32 or better yet buy one of
> each. The 3X is standard in the kit.
>
> DP-8 Drive Pin Punches- This is a nice punch set you could get by with
> only the 3/32 and 1/8 which come in the kit. (you will be removing a
> few
>
> bad rivets)
>
> LBL-13 BOELUBE Do not drill lead without it.
>
>
> 3MW-77S6 Light deburring wheel- You get a rougher one in the kit you
> need both. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a grinder and install
> these wheels.
>
> 3MP-47 Scotch-Brite pads-you will need plenty. The kit now has 5
> pads.
>
> DIE509-10 #10 SCREW DIMPLE DIES-You will need these to dimple for the
> screws for the lead weights
>
> SNYT-405 4in THIN NOSE YOKE- You are going to need a thin nose and a
> 4in
>
> nose get them both in one.
>
> SNYF-251 2.5in FLANGE NOSE YOKE- There is places where nothing else is
> going to reach.
>
> RSMS-75 SWIVEL FLUSH SET WITH RUBBER GUARD-You must cut some of the
> rubber down or you rivets will set too high
>
> CLP-20 CLEKO PLIERS-One is not enough.
>
> CLC-50 1/2in CLEKO CLAMP-You get 4. You need at least 10.
>
> CLC-100 1in CLEKO CLAMP-You get 4. You need at least 10.
>
> CC120-30 120 DEGREE DIES FOR 1/8 POP RIVETS-You use a lot of CS4-4 on
> the floor boards of the fuselage they are 120 degrees.
>
>
> For our RV10 friends RSB-12 12in back rivet set-You will need this to
> back rivet the stiffeners on the elevators.
>
>
> The RV10 will also need BBRV10 SPECIAL BUCKING BAR-You will need this
> for the elevators.
>
>
> I would buy from Avery to complete the kit from Cleaveland 575 hand
> seamer 3-1/2 jaw-I use this to squeezing the trailing edge of the
> trim tabs.
> 550 3/32 vise grip dimplers- several places on ribs this is needed.
>
> 1046 SPEED DEBURRING AND COUNTERSINKING TOOL
>
> 23904 4 PC. HOOK AND PICK SET-You will need a pick many times for
> aligning skins (Harbor Freight)
>
> If you buy an Avery tool kit, I would buy the RV-3,-4-6-7-8-9and -10
> builders tool kit.
>
> I would subtract from the kit
>
> 1001 22in hand rivet and dimpling tool-it is there c-frame tool a good
> tool but see below about a c-frame tool
>
> 10765 POLYETHYLENE DIMPLING MALLET-Goes with the c-frame tool. If you
> get the c-frame tool get the mallet. (Harbor Freight)
>
> 500 FLUTING PLIERS- You need a pair of fluting pliers I like
> Cleaveland's a lot better.
>
> 1042 EDGE ROLLING TOOL- I can not get this tool to work for me. It
> could
>
> just be me.
>
> 3507 3M RIVETING TAPE-Works well. If you use it take it off after
> use it
>
> is real hard to get off later. Use Scotch Removable Magic Tape works
> as
> well and much cheaper.
>
> 9885 ANGLE DRILL KIT- Nice kit not needed for the tail kit could be
> used
>
> later. (ebay)
>
> 1054 NBR 8 SCREW COUNTERSINK CUTTER-Not needed for the tail kit.
>
> 25500 SWIVEL HEAD POP RIVET TOOL-If you must use a hand pop tool use
> Cleaveland's PRS-20 it is much easier to squeeze.
>
> I would add to the kit:
>
> 7760 4in NO HOLE YOKE
>
> 7755 LONGERON YOKE
>
> 811 RIVETING TAPE-Scotch removable magic tape.
>
> 1003 BOELUBE Do not drill lead without it.
>
> 200 CLECO PLIERS-One is not enough.
>
> 1661 Light deburring wheel- You get a rougher one in the kit you need
> both. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a grinder and install these
> wheels.
>
> 23904 4 PC. HOOK AND PICK SET-You will need a pick many times for
> aligning skins.
>
> For the RV9 42120 SPECIAL 120 DEGREE COUNTERSINK-Used where you use
> CS4-4 rivets on the elevators.
>
> For the RV10 630 RV10 ELEVATOR BUCKING BAR
>
> I would by from Cleaveland to complete the Avery kit:.
>
> 3MP-47 Scotch-Brite pads-you will need plenty
>
> DIE509-10 #10 SCREW DIMPLE DIES-You will need these to dimple for the
> screws for the lead weights
>
> EF-60 EDGE FORMER-Needed at seams
>
> HS-30 OFFSET HAND SEAMER-Used many places
>
> FP-200 FLUTING PLIERS-Used to straighten ribs
>
> For the RV9 DIECS4-4 120 DEGREE DIES FOR 1/8 POP RIVETS-You use a
> lot of
>
> CS4-4 on the skin of your elevators they are 120 degrees.
>
> For our RV10 friends RSB-12 12in back rivet set-You will need this to
> back rivet the stiffeners on the elevators.
>
> Tools that would be nice to have:
>
> PNEUMATIC SQUEEZER- In my opinion a must have. Get a 214 style. Make
> sure to get an adjustable set holder for it.
>
> PNEUMATIC POP RIVET GUN-Go to harbor freight or such and get one for
> around $40.00
> LIGHTWEIGHT HOSE KITS-Makes it a lot easier to handle drills and rivet
> guns
> TATCO HAND SQUEEZER WITH 2in YOKE-Makes it a lot easier to dimple all
> those ribs (Not necessary, I like Avery's squeezer)
> C-FRAME DIMPLER
> EXPERIMENTAL AERO
> I brought a DRDT dimplier and installed it at Alexander Technical
> Center
>
> to try it out in January this year.
>
> Boy was that a mistake. There is no way I am getting it back. It is
> the
> best I have used for dimpling. It gives best dimples; it is
> consistent,
> quiet and a one man operation.
>
> There is no way I am going back to the old c-frame hammer method.
> Now if
>
> I need to dimple I pack up what I have and drive 32 miles even
> though I
> have a hammer c-Frame dimplier at home. It is that much better. They
> now
>
> sell the DRDT-2 which has some improvement over the -1.
> Mike Crowe
>
>
> Doug Gee wrote:
> <Doug.Gee@firestone-textiles.com>
>>
>> I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many
> hours reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very
> very
> helpful in trying to comprehend the scope of this project.
>
>
Message 24
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It's the engine monitor that reboots for me when I crank. So I needed to
add a second battery even though I have 2 alternators.
Gary
40274
DAR inspection scheduled
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim@CombsFive.Com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Batteries
I agree!
I have the Advanced Flight Systems 3500EE and it works great during
cranking.
Any EFIS that will not function during cranking is not worth having. Thats
a required feature in my opinion.
Jim Combs
40192
===========================================================
From: "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy" <tdawson-townsend@aurora.aero>
Subject: RV10-List: Batteries
Tim wrote: "Most EFIS systems won't stay running while you crank an
engine"
I say, any EFIS that's worth its salt will!
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025 Firewall Forward
tdt@aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
===========================================================
Message 25
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| Subject: | Mogas / Avgas Trivia |
The post was cut from another form which would not allow a font
reduction. Tried that! it is only one step better from years ago with
the fax of a fax of a fax method. YMMV. One excellent counter to the
post gave the urban legend version
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/gastips.asp
Because avgas fuel tanks are often "above ground level" and do not have
the same temperature/volume calibration equipment at all locales you
might refuel, I saw it only as thought provoking. Having to pump
hundreds of thousands of gallons of Mogas just to get the Avgas we
needed made for an interesting Summer and Fall of 1973. Whether you
chose to reject the information is fine with me. Many hedge funds are
driving the irrational spec market for $100+ per barrel crude prices.
If the next government would open and flood the distribution system for
a month at a time with strategic reserves. It could cut the legs out
from under the speculators. The feds latest policy to loan the Hedge
funds 3 billion just to speculate the price higher has me scratching my
head.
Travel on Easter Sunday has always been a refueling crap shoot. Drive
Safely.
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Gerhardstein/Windance
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Mogas / Avgas Trivia
why are you shouting at us. Font down for god's sake.
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Cox <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 12:06 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Mogas / Avgas Trivia
Tips on pumping gas.
Message 26
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| Subject: | New Builder - Tools |
I will ditto what Jesse said, but put special emphasis on Avery and
Cleaveland tool. Bob Avery and the Lauritsen clan are some of the best
people you'll ever deal with. Plus, they are both small family run
operations that truly care about each customer. I try pretty hard to split
any tool purchases I have between Avery and Cleaveland because I want them
to stay in business. Like us, they aren't always the cheapest, but they are
the best people I know in the business and their tools are top notch. We too
have worked on everything from 747's to Piper Cubs so our personal tool
assortment is pretty good (how many people need a 10X rivet gun) and I think
I've purchased tools from just about every place out there. For an RV
(we've built a good number of them too), I can't think of any reason not to
buy nearly all of your tools from either Avery or Cleaveland.
FYI...there has been a LOT of good information on this thread! That being
said, it really doesn't matter how big of a list you make, you'll still be
missing something. Part of the fun when doing a project like this is all
the treasure hunting you get to do for things like tools and such. I'd echo
what you've seen before. Buy a kit, then just buy the rest as you need it.
I'm sorry for the shameless plug, but as an RV builder myself I really like
to see people like those two companies get as much business as they can. I
don't have an affiliation with either company other than being a customer of
both - and a darned happy customer of both that goes back for more!
Sometimes price isn't the only thing to consider.....
Cheers,
Stein
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
>Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 3:12 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>
>
>
>
>One word on Avery and Cleveland. They are both expensive and you can
>find stuff cheaper...BUT...their tools are the best quality I have
>used, from dimple dies and drill bits to squeezers. As far as I know,
>a Sioux drill is a Sioux drill, so go for where you can get it
>cheaper, but when it comes to stuff that isn't a specific brand, these
>two companies are great to buy from. Believe me, I have tried quite a
>few of them, and the more I try, the more I like Avery and Cleveland.
>Speaking of Cleveland, as was already mentioned, their quick change
>drill system is ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC, but make sure you can get your
>original chuck off your drill. I have only been able to get the chuck
>off the Sious drills (and don't tell anybody, but I have destroyed 2
>other drills trying to do the same to them, but they weren't Sioux).
>
>All IMHO.
>
>do not archive
>
>Jesse Saint
>Saint Aviation, Inc.
>jesse@saintaviation.com
>Cell: 352-427-0285
>Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>> >>
>>>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
I echo the same and add Stein to that list....
John
#40626
Do Not Archive
"... put special emphasis on Avery and Cleaveland tool. Bob Avery and
the Lauritsen clan are some of the best people you'll ever deal with.
Plus, they are both small family run operations that truly care about
each customer. I try pretty hard to split any tool purchases I have
between Avery and Cleaveland because I want them to stay in business.
Like us, they aren't always the cheapest, but they are the best people I
know in the business and their tools are top notch. I can't think of any
reason not to buy nearly all of your tools from either Avery or
Cleaveland.
...as an RV builder myself I really like to see people like those two
companies get as much business as they can. I don't have an affiliation
with either company other than being a customer of both - and a darned
happy customer of both that goes back for more! Sometimes price isn't
the only thing to consider....."
Cheers,
Stein
Message 28
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| Subject: | Blatant commercial message - DRDT-2 for sale |
I bought one of these and left it in the box for a few months, looking at it
and wondering why I foolishly spent money when I had a perfectly good
whack-a-mole painted a nice red sitting unobtrusively in the corner. Bruce
Breckenridge, building a -10 right next door to me, would come over and sit
in my comfy desk chair looking at it forlornly, especially when he was
beginning his wings. I usually just ignored him. Then one day I took it
out of the box and put it together. I used it on the elevator skins,
invited Bruce over to have a look and a trial run, and am sad to say that
the red one has not since left the corner. I've been in Buildus Interruptus
for over a year, but Bruce hasn't. He's almost done with his wings and has
reported that my DRDT-2 has performed quite well.
In short, buy John's, if you want to enjoy the riveting experience. You
won't look back. You might have to find out where yours has wandered off
to, if you have other builders in the area, but I'm afraid your lonely
little red one in the corner will remain there. That's how good these
things are. True, you can build a perfectly great plane without one, but,
why? Sharing is optional, but highly advisable.
John Jessen
40328
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ackerman
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 12:57 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Blatant commercial message - DRDT-2 for sale
Marlys and I have a DRDT-2 dimpler that we really like. We're all done
dimpling large sheet metal pieces now, though, and are not likely to build
another airplane, so it's for sale.
This particular DRDT-2 was featured in the October 2006 issue of Kitplanes.
It's in fine condition - I'm not sure that one RV10 is enough to break it
in. :-)
Sale would include a carpeted support table per Paul's plans if you want to
pay the shipping rather than make one (it's bulky), and the paperwork it
came with (plans, instructions).
New price is $350 from Experimental Aero. Best acceptable offer by April 1
takes it; I will sell immediately for $250.
You pay actual shipping cost including insurance; I box it up at my cost and
labor. $25 discount if you pick it up instead.
Payment via paypal, Cashier's check, money order , etc. Personal check is
OK, but I will wait to ship until it clears. I'm not set up to take credit
cards.
We're located in Prescott, AZ 86305. Phone is 928-759-9279. Email: is
johnag5b@cableone.net.
If you want a new DRDT-2, Paul Merems of Experimental Aero 12351 E. Lou Bock
Pl. Tucson, AZ 85749 stands out among a very good set of RV-10 vendors for
his helpfulness and the quality of his stuff. His website is:
http://www.experimentalaero.com/DRDT-2.htm
and there's a good description of the dimpler there.
John Ackerman RV10 #40458
Message 29
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Wow!
The DRDT-2 sold in less than a minute!
A new one is a great unit and terribly expensive; to quote a noted
authority: :-)
> ...If you want a new DRDT-2, Paul Merems of Experimental Aero 12351
> E. Lou Bock Pl. Tucson, AZ 85749 stands out among a very good set
> of RV-10 vendors for his helpfulness and the quality of his stuff.
> His website is:
> _http://www.experimentalaero.com/DRDT-2.htm_
> and there's a good description of the dimpler there.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Fwd: DRDT-2 sold - WHoops! |
I meant _NOT_ terribly expensive ($350)
Begin forwarded message:
> From: John Ackerman <johnag5b@cableone.net>
> Date: March 21, 2008 2:12:09 PM MST
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: DRDT-2 sold
>
> Wow!
> The DRDT-2 sold in less than a minute!
> A new one is a great unit and terribly expensive; to quote a noted
> authority: :-)
>
>> ...If you want a new DRDT-2, Paul Merems of Experimental Aero
>> 12351 E. Lou Bock Pl. Tucson, AZ 85749 stands out among a very
>> good set of RV-10 vendors for his helpfulness and the quality of
>> his stuff. His website is:
>> _http://www.experimentalaero.com/DRDT-2.htm_
>> and there's a good description of the dimpler there.
Message 31
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FWIW, I have the same basic setup and do the same procedures (GRT EIS only
during start, then power everything else up). Works great and I have all
the info I need on the engine during and post start.
Marcus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Batteries
Jim are you just trying to start an EFIS war? :)
I made no provision for keeping my GRT Horizon 1 on line during cranking. I
knew it would not stay on line, and with other electronics I have on board,
I don't want it on line during cranking. I use the EIS for engine start,
and it works great. Here is my startup procedure.
Battery on line
Check EIS for warnings, make sure nothing unexpected is showing
Crank engine, monitoring EIS
With engine start, wait for oil pressure, check for alarms
Bring alternator on line
Start up GRT EFIS, A/P and other avionics
Wait a minute or so for EFIS and 430 to settle down, taxi and go.
Use paper checklist unit EFIS is on line. It was just yesterday that I got
the checklist loaded in the GRT, was using the BM lite. It was real nice to
have the parameters and data available in the check list.
I have been thinking about a second battery, but based on my mission
requirements just don't see a need.
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim@CombsFive.Com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Batteries
I agree!
I have the Advanced Flight Systems 3500EE and it works great during
cranking.
Any EFIS that will not function during cranking is not worth having. Thats
a required feature in my opinion.
Jim Combs
40192
===========================================================
From: "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy" <tdawson-townsend@aurora.aero>
Subject: RV10-List: Batteries
Tim wrote: "Most EFIS systems won't stay running while you crank an
engine"
I say, any EFIS that's worth its salt will!
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025 Firewall Forward
tdt@aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
===========================================================
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: New Builder - Tools |
"Part of the fun when doing a project like this is all the treasure
hunting you get to do for things like tools and such."
About half way through you will start electrical wiring and then there
is a entirely new set of tools to purchase. And another set of quality
vendors supporting us RV builders, Stein being one of them.
Larry
do not archive
SteinAir, Inc. wrote:
>
> I will ditto what Jesse said, but put special emphasis on Avery and
> Cleaveland tool. Bob Avery and the Lauritsen clan are some of the best
> people you'll ever deal with. Plus, they are both small family run
> operations that truly care about each customer. I try pretty hard to split
> any tool purchases I have between Avery and Cleaveland because I want them
> to stay in business. Like us, they aren't always the cheapest, but they are
> the best people I know in the business and their tools are top notch. We too
> have worked on everything from 747's to Piper Cubs so our personal tool
> assortment is pretty good (how many people need a 10X rivet gun) and I think
> I've purchased tools from just about every place out there. For an RV
> (we've built a good number of them too), I can't think of any reason not to
> buy nearly all of your tools from either Avery or Cleaveland.
>
> FYI...there has been a LOT of good information on this thread! That being
> said, it really doesn't matter how big of a list you make, you'll still be
> missing something. Part of the fun when doing a project like this is all
> the treasure hunting you get to do for things like tools and such. I'd echo
> what you've seen before. Buy a kit, then just buy the rest as you need it.
>
> I'm sorry for the shameless plug, but as an RV builder myself I really like
> to see people like those two companies get as much business as they can. I
> don't have an affiliation with either company other than being a customer of
> both - and a darned happy customer of both that goes back for more!
> Sometimes price isn't the only thing to consider.....
>
> Cheers,
> Stein
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 3:12 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Builder - Tools
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>> One word on Avery and Cleveland. They are both expensive and you can
>> find stuff cheaper...BUT...their tools are the best quality I have
>> used, from dimple dies and drill bits to squeezers. As far as I know,
>> a Sioux drill is a Sioux drill, so go for where you can get it
>> cheaper, but when it comes to stuff that isn't a specific brand, these
>> two companies are great to buy from. Believe me, I have tried quite a
>> few of them, and the more I try, the more I like Avery and Cleveland.
>> Speaking of Cleveland, as was already mentioned, their quick change
>> drill system is ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC, but make sure you can get your
>> original chuck off your drill. I have only been able to get the chuck
>> off the Sious drills (and don't tell anybody, but I have destroyed 2
>> other drills trying to do the same to them, but they weren't Sioux).
>>
>>
>
>
>> All IMHO.
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>> jesse@saintaviation.com
>> Cell: 352-427-0285
>> Fax: 815-377-3694
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Manifold pressure port |
Got it . Thanks.
Fred
BPA wrote:
>
> Fred,
>
> You can pull your MP from the #5 cylinder intake port. There should be a
> gallery plug (1/8 pipe)right under the oil drain back fitting by the
> rocker box cover.
>
> Allen
> BPE, Inc.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
> Williams, M.D.
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 1:33 PM
> To: RV 10
> Subject: RV10-List: Manifold pressure port
>
> <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> Can anybody give me a hint as to where the hook up is for the manifold
> pressure on a IO 540 E4 A5 engine? Looks like there should be a 1/4
> nipple to connect the hose that goes to the sensor. I can't seem to
> find the port in the overhaul manual.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> And to the gentleman getting the tools. Get the good springback dimple
>
> dies. Worth their weight in gold.
>
> Fred Williams
> 40515
>
> In the "now where does this wire go? " part of finishing.
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | A good day building.. |
Finally some real progress today. The upper fuselage/instrument panel is
now attached. I was concerned about the fit of the upper fuselage over
the instrument panel, there's quite a bit of stress around the upper
skin where it meets the fuselage side skins. However it went on very
nicely. We started the riveting process at the firewall and worked
aft, this really seemed to help ensure that the seam stayed tight as we
replaced each cleco with a rivet. Also, you can see the machined
arches I made to support the upper instrument panel ribs that had to be
cut to allow for the AFS EFISs. Attached also is the starting point
for our instrument panel. I'll be adding the details on these arched
support pieces to our web site soon.
Bob Newman 40176
TCW Technologies
www.tcwtech.com
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: A good day building.. |
Looks great. Nice panel selection.
I don't remember what order it comes in the plans, but you might wish
you have put on the heater boxes and the scat tube connections inside
the forward tunnel before attaching the panel area. For the rest of
you out there, those scat tubes can be put on (and should be put on
IMHO) very early in the process, just get your brake lines in first.
no not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Mar 21, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Bob-tcw wrote:
> Finally some real progress today. The upper fuselage/instrument
> panel is now attached. I was concerned about the fit of the upper
> fuselage over the instrument panel, there's quite a bit of stress
> around the upper skin where it meets the fuselage side skins.
> However it went on very nicely. We started the riveting process at
> the firewall and worked aft, this really seemed to help ensure that
> the seam stayed tight as we replaced each cleco with a rivet.
> Also, you can see the machined arches I made to support the upper
> instrument panel ribs that had to be cut to allow for the AFS
> EFISs. Attached also is the starting point for our instrument
> panel. I'll be adding the details on these arched support pieces
> to our web site soon.
>
>
> Bob Newman 40176
> TCW Technologies
> www.tcwtech.com
>
>
> <fuse-front.JPG><paper inst panel-small.JPG><instrument panel
> area.jpg>
Message 36
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| Subject: | heated pitot to plastic tube connector |
Looked at archives and see questions on this but not the specific
adaptor I'll need for the heated pitot tube copper connector to the
plastic tubing I plan to use (instead of the aluminum).
anyone know what I need to make this connection happen?
Thanks!
Pascal
Message 37
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Did you go with the rg25 battery?
Pat Thyssen
gary <speckter@comcast.net> wrote:
It's the engine monitor that reboots for me when I crank. So I needed to
add a second battery even though I have 2 alternators.
Gary
40274
DAR inspection scheduled
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim@CombsFive.Com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Batteries
I agree!
I have the Advanced Flight Systems 3500EE and it works great during
cranking.
Any EFIS that will not function during cranking is not worth having. Thats
a required feature in my opinion.
Jim Combs
40192
===========================================================
From: "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy"
Subject: RV10-List: Batteries
Tim wrote: "Most EFIS systems won't stay running while you crank an
engine"
I say, any EFIS that's worth its salt will!
TDT
Tim Dawson-Townsend
40025 Firewall Forward
tdt@aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
===========================================================
Message 38
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Not! No EFIS wars please.
I believe that most if not all of the EFIS technology available to us as experimental
aircraft manufacturers is without a doubt the single best thing from a
safety standpoint. We have systems that rival or surpass the best systems flying
commercially. With the availability of on screen weather, synthetic terrain,
moving map technology, audible alerts, highway in the sky to name just a few.
All of these contribute to safer flying. I don't think anyone should be
building in todays world without glass of some sort in the panel. Cost is not
an issue.
It's all very good!
Still working on getting my first flight in a RV. (Hopefully mid April with Alex
in Texas!) Wonder how that compares with a C-182? That has to got to be an
apples to oranges comparison.
Jim C
40192
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pressure problems |
Could somebody please explain why a coordinated turn would make any
difference here?
I once flew with a well regarded instructor in his personal Glasair,
(different airplane, David ) and got really tired of holding aileron
to compensate for unequal lateral weight distribution. His solution
was a steep turn toward the light wing. I did so just to avoid an
argument, but it predictably did no good. This looks like the same
idea to me.
No flame war intended, I'm just wondering what I'm missing...
John Ackerman 40458
>
> ...however it would still be possible to vent after a turn that
> immersed the
> internal tube end near the outboard edge. I have seen fuel venting
> in my
> Glastar in a moderate turn after takeoff with all tanks to the
> filler neck.
Message 40
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| Subject: | heated pitot to plastic tube connector |
Tygon F4040-A Fuel and Lubricant tubing comes to mind. We use it on the
turbine engines near a fuel transfer point with extreme heat near the
exhaust stacks. Heat resistance is important but so is compatibility
with cleaning solvents and hydrocarbons. YMMV.
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 5:44 PM
Subject: RV10-List: heated pitot to plastic tube connector
Looked at archives and see questions on this but not the specific
adaptor I'll need for the heated pitot tube copper connector to the
plastic tubing I plan to use (instead of the aluminum).
anyone know what I need to make this connection happen?
Thanks!
Pascal
Message 41
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| Subject: | CO Sensor and Sump Heater |
I am looking for a decent panel-mounted CO Sensor and a Sump Heater
option for the RV-10. Does anybody have any suggestions and vendor/
pricing info?
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 42
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| Subject: | Fuel pressure problems |
In the Glastar the main and aux vents tie together at the tip, in a bank the
full tanks immerse the vents and fill the lines with fuel except the
external air pressure in the vents prevented most of the flow overboard ( I
caught a glimpse of the vapor in the sunlight). In the same way a turn in
the 10 will immerse one of the internal vent openings in fuel and any
negative pressure caused by improperly cut external vent tubes would tend to
port that fuel overboard.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ackerman
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pressure problems
Could somebody please explain why a coordinated turn would make any
difference here?
I once flew with a well regarded instructor in his personal Glasair,
(different airplane, David ) and got really tired of holding aileron to
compensate for unequal lateral weight distribution. His solution was a steep
turn toward the light wing. I did so just to avoid an argument, but it
predictably did no good. This looks like the same idea to me.
No flame war intended, I'm just wondering what I'm missing...
John Ackerman 40458
...however it would still be possible to vent after a turn that immersed the
internal tube end near the outboard edge. I have seen fuel venting in my
Glastar in a moderate turn after takeoff with all tanks to the filler neck.
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: heated pitot to plastic tube connector |
thanks John, what connector/connection/adaptor would I use to connect
the copper connector from the pitot tube to this tubing?
Thanks!
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Cox
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: heated pitot to plastic tube connector
Tygon F4040-A Fuel and Lubricant tubing comes to mind. We use it on
the turbine engines near a fuel transfer point with extreme heat near
the exhaust stacks. Heat resistance is important but so is
compatibility with cleaning solvents and hydrocarbons. YMMV.
John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 5:44 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: heated pitot to plastic tube connector
Looked at archives and see questions on this but not the specific
adaptor I'll need for the heated pitot tube copper connector to the
plastic tubing I plan to use (instead of the aluminum).
anyone know what I need to make this connection happen?
Thanks!
Pascal
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