Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:22 AM - Re: Florida Use Tax (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
2. 06:33 AM - Re: Florida Use Tax (Dj Merrill)
3. 07:08 AM - Re: Piper Clipper trade for raw RV10 kit (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site (John Gonzalez)
5. 08:36 AM - Re: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site (Rene Felker)
6. 09:06 AM - Windscreen Crazing (Bobby J. Hughes)
7. 09:13 AM - The King has no Clothes (John W. Cox)
8. 09:17 AM - Re: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site (Les Kearney)
9. 09:19 AM - Re: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site (John Gonzalez)
10. 10:01 AM - Re: The King has no Clothes (Tim Olson)
11. 10:04 AM - Re: Windscreen Crazing (Tim Olson)
12. 10:08 AM - Re: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site (John Gonzalez)
13. 10:26 AM - Re: Windscreen Crazing (Bobby J. Hughes)
14. 10:31 AM - Re: The King has no Clothes (Rene Felker)
15. 10:40 AM - Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (Deems Davis)
16. 11:07 AM - Re: Windscreen Crazing (John Gonzalez)
17. 11:16 AM - Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (greghale)
18. 11:37 AM - Re: The King has no Clothes (John Gonzalez)
19. 11:54 AM - Re: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site (John Gonzalez)
20. 12:27 PM - Re: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site (Perry, Phil)
21. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (Robin Marks)
22. 02:49 PM - Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (greghale)
23. 03:26 PM - Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (Chris and Susie McGough)
24. 03:29 PM - Re: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site (Chris and Susie McGough)
25. 04:02 PM - Re: The King has no Clothes (PJ Seipel)
26. 04:46 PM - Re: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site (Perry, Phil)
27. 06:42 PM - Another fatal crash.... (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
28. 06:47 PM - RV-10 Down in Alabama (Perry, Phil)
29. 07:01 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
30. 07:05 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (Rick Sked)
31. 07:25 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (Jesse Saint)
32. 07:50 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (Perry, Phil)
33. 07:54 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (John W. Cox)
34. 07:57 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (John McMahon)
35. 08:06 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (John McMahon)
36. 08:13 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (David McNeill)
37. 08:16 PM - Re: Another fatal crash.... (David McNeill)
38. 08:39 PM - Re: The King has no Clothes (Tim Olson)
39. 08:51 PM - Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (Dave Leikam)
40. 09:03 PM - Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (Deems Davis)
41. 09:19 PM - Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (Tim Olson)
42. 09:27 PM - Re: The King has no Clothes (Dave Leikam)
43. 09:31 PM - Re: The King has no Clothes (David McNeill)
44. 09:34 PM - Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? (Dave Leikam)
45. 10:53 PM - Re: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site (Chris and Susie McGough)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Florida Use Tax |
Because of the need for SnF to contact the state of "Da" and get a waive on
plane inspection for the Use tax law...I've decided a couple of weeks ago to
cancel my trip to SnF and not spend another dime in the State of "Da"...I'd
encourage others to do so and tell SnF to inform the State of "Da" their
attendence and other associated revenue is down because of their trying to rip
off
airplane owners...I'd also encourage others not to fly to Maine for any
reason or go on vacation there and boycott anything coming from there until they
come to their senses, also.
Patrick
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Florida Use Tax |
GRANSCOTT@aol.com wrote:
> I'd also encourage others not to fly to Maine for any reason or go on
> vacation there and boycott anything coming from there until they come
> to their senses, also.
>
And here are some e-mail addresses you can use to tell our wonderful
state gov't how you feel about it:
Governor@maine.gov
david.e.bauer@maine.gov
Katherine.L.Riedel@maine.gov
fyi
-Dj
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Piper Clipper trade for raw RV10 kit |
matthew...how much money are you throwing into the kit owner plus the
clipper?
P
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
When I laminated my door halves, I placed a hardwood blocks for a hardpoint
in the square space above where the front nylon pin block is located. The
idea was to have a place where I can put a locking latch to lock my doors.
I intend to use a latch just like the one used on the baggage door.
The latch will anchore the front of the door after the standard latch pins
close the door. I am thinking that even with the standard Vans latch pins e
ngaged and then this latch closed, that in the event that there is some for
m of missalighment and the standard vans pins dissengage , this latch will
keep the airstream from lifting the front edge of the door and pulling the
door off.
I am still working on the Van's pins in the doors and will post once all is
completed.
I believe one of the problems is that if there is any wiggle room fore and
aft on the door, it could pull the pins out. It seems the further the pins
go into the cabin side openings the better.
John G. 409 (WHere does one find a 5/16 tap that will go 2 inches into thos
e aluminum tubes(Pins) without bottoming out on the tap shaft.)> From: dlm4
6007@cox.net> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door sep
aration for those who don't frequent VAF site> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 18:43:
net>> > I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Will Peacock; he is the
owner of> the aircraft; his partner was flying. The aircraft was built by S
aint> Aviation. The aircraft was repaired and is about to start flying agai
n.> Someone has come up with another latching mechanism and he has indicate
d he> will send a picture of same. I will post when I get it. The apparent
problem> again was the rear pin but no one is definite or has a certain tes
ted> solution as yet. The windscreen fiberglass crack and the alternator co
wl> strike are from the 4g (as measured by the Dynon) landing. Repairs incl
uded> entirely replacing the tailcone. It is my understanding that the door
s are> the original as built by Saint Aviation> > -----Original Message----
-> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder> (Michael Sausen)> Sent: Sunday,
April 06, 2008 6:08 PM> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: RV10-List
: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF> site> > --> RV10-List m
essage posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > --> <rvbuilder@sausen.net
>> > Yikes! That is some serious damage and it really starts to show the> p
otential of having the offending door hit the HS on the way out. I'm very>
glad I'm going with Rivetheads blocks rather than the UHMW and hopefully Va
n> will get the picture that this is happening way too often for a cheesy>
warning light. Interesting this happened back in Sept but (little) word is>
coming out now. Something smells of lawyer involvement coming. Jesse, who>
setup the doors on that one, you guys or the owner?> > Michael> > -----Ori
ginal Message-----> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:own
er-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked> Sent: Sunday, Ap
ril 06, 2008 6:49 PM> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RV10-List: Door
seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site> > --> RV10-List message
posted by: Rick Sked <ricksked@embarqmail.com>> > > Check out this link> >
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28678> > > > > > >
-========================
==> > >
Message 5
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| Subject: | Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
I ground the shaft of the tap...
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:14 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF
site
When I laminated my door halves, I placed a hardwood blocks for a hardpoint
in the square space above where the front nylon pin block is located. The
idea was to have a place where I can put a locking latch to lock my doors. I
intend to use a latch just like the one used on the baggage door.
The latch will anchore the front of the door after the standard latch pins
close the door. I am thinking that even with the standard Vans latch pins
engaged and then this latch closed, that in the event that there is some
form of missalighment and the standard vans pins dissengage , this latch
will keep the airstream from lifting the front edge of the door and pulling
the door off.
I am still working on the Van's pins in the doors and will post once all is
completed.
I believe one of the problems is that if there is any wiggle room fore and
aft on the door, it could pull the pins out. It seems the further the pins
go into the cabin side openings the better.
John G. 409 (WHere does one find a 5/16 tap that will go 2 inches into those
aluminum tubes(Pins) without bottoming out on the tap shaft.)
> From: dlm46007@cox.net
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF
site
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 18:43:09 -0700
>
>
> I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Will Peacock; he is the owner
of
> the aircraft; his partner was flying. The aircraft was built by Saint
> Aviation. The aircraft was repaired and is about to start flying again.
> Someone has come up with another latching mechanism and he has indicated
he
> will send a picture of same. I will post when I get it. The apparent
problem
> again was the rear pin but no one is definite or has a certain tested
> solution as yet. The windscreen fiberglass crack and the alternator cowl
> strike are from the 4g (as measured by the Dynon) landing. Repairs
included
> entirely replacing the tailcone. It is my understanding that the doors are
> the original as built by Saint Aviation
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
> (Michael Sausen)
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:08 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF
> site
>
> --> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> Yikes! That is some serious damage and it really starts to show the
> potential of having the offending door hit the HS on the way out. I'm very
> glad I'm going with Rivetheads blocks rather than the UHMW and hopefully
Van
> will get the picture that this is happening way too often for a cheesy
> warning light. Interesting this happened back in Sept but (little) word is
> coming out now. Something smells of lawyer involvement coming. Jesse, who
> setup the doors on that one, you guys or the owner?
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:49 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site
>
>
>
> Check out this link
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28678
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Windscreen Crazing |
Yesterday I decided to remove the protective coverings from all my
windows. The inside had the factory plastic coating still in place and
the outside had been covered with spraylat after installation of the
windscreen. I think the spraylat was applied in August 2006. Plane was
moved to the hanger via a wrecker in December 2006.
We used the lancair method and materials to glue in all of the windows.
Hysol mixed with flox. Only the windscreen has any signs of crazing. We
glued a lancair ES, Mark Ritters RV10 and mine within a few months of
each other. The ES is flying with no problems and Mark's plane did not
have any cracks using this method. Acetone was used on the glue seam
and frame but none touched any other part of the glass.
Any ideas?
Bobby J Hughes
40116
Message 7
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| Subject: | The King has no Clothes |
Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent
pictures on the door departure from N416EC. My count is over 100
followers of this documented build technique.
Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the
correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.
Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space
outside). Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the
Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during
flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without human
assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a Secondary
Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.
I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for even
mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time. Have a great
and informative week. I suspect those of us that do not get to go to
SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers. Tomorrow I will hover
over the AFS website.
John Cox
#600
Message 8
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| Subject: | Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
John
I have been reading these threads with interest. I keep coming back to the
door arrangement on my PA28 Cherokee. It is very similar in shape & design
to the -10 except it has two hinges on the side of the door. Over the past
14 years, I have had the door come ajar perhaps a 5 or 6 times (in large
part due to the door handle design). In every case it was a non-event as the
door would open only open an inch or two. In fact, I mastered the technique
of re-closing the door while in flight - again not a big deal.
In my opinion, the key to eliminating the risk associated with the -10 is to
find a way to keep the leading edge of the door secure even if the door pins
are not inserted correctly. On the top of the Cherokee door, there is a
latch that when closed, pulls the door tight to the door frame with a "hook"
type latch mechanism. I suspect this might be a bit more robust than a
baggage door latch arrangement.
Just my $0.02
Les Kearney
#40643
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: April-07-08 9:14 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF
site
When I laminated my door halves, I placed a hardwood blocks for a hardpoint
in the square space above where the front nylon pin block is located. The
idea was to have a place where I can put a locking latch to lock my doors. I
intend to use a latch just like the one used on the baggage door.
The latch will anchore the front of the door after the standard latch pins
close the door. I am thinking that even with the standard Vans latch pins
engaged and then this latch closed, that in the event that there is some
form of missalighment and the standard vans pins dissengage , this latch
will keep the airstream from lifting the front edge of the door and pulling
the door off.
I am still working on the Van's pins in the doors and will post once all is
completed.
I believe one of the problems is that if there is any wiggle room fore and
aft on the door, it could pull the pins out. It seems the further the pins
go into the cabin side openings the better.
John G. 409 (WHere does one find a 5/16 tap that will go 2 inches into those
aluminum tubes(Pins) without bottoming out on the tap shaft.)
> From: dlm46007@cox.net
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF
site
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 18:43:09 -0700
>
>
> I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Will Peacock; he is the owner
of
> the aircraft; his partner was flying. The aircraft was built by Saint
> Aviation. The aircraft was repaired and is about to start flying again.
> Someone has come up with another latching mechanism and he has indicated
he
> will send a picture of same. I will post when I get it. The apparent
problem
> again was the rear pin but no one is definite or has a certain tested
> solution as yet. The windscreen fiberglass crack and the alternator cowl
> strike are from the 4g (as measured by the Dynon) landing. Repairs
included
> entirely replacing the tailcone. It is my understanding that the doors are
> the original as built by Saint Aviation
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
> (Michael Sausen)
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:08 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF
> site
>
> --> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> Yikes! That is some serious damage and it really starts to show the
> potential of having the offending door hit the HS on the way out. I'm very
> glad I'm going with Rivetheads blocks rather than the UHMW and hopefully
Van
> will get the picture that this is happening way too often for a cheesy
> warning light. Interesting this happened back in Sept but (little) word is
> coming out now. Something smells of lawyer involvement coming. Jesse, who
> setup the doors on that one, you guys or the owner?
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:49 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site
>
>
>
> Check out this link
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28678
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
Great, another modification which will suck up atleast 15-20 minutes. A fil
e while it is in the drill press? Is there a faster way?
Do not archive
From: rene@felker.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: Doo
r separation for those who don't frequent VAF siteDate: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 09:
35:26 -0600
I ground the shaft of the tap=85..
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of John GonzalezSent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:14 A
MTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for tho
se who don't frequent VAF site
When I laminated my door halves, I placed a hardwood blocks for a hardpoint
in the square space above where the front nylon pin block is located. The
idea was to have a place where I can put a locking latch to lock my doors.
I intend to use a latch just like the one used on the baggage door. The la
tch will anchore the front of the door after the standard latch pins close
the door. I am thinking that even with the standard Vans latch pins engaged
and then this latch closed, that in the event that there is some form of m
issalighment and the standard vans pins dissengage , this latch will keep t
he airstream from lifting the front edge of the door and pulling the door o
ff. I am still working on the Van's pins in the doors and will post once al
l is completed. I believe one of the problems is that if there is any wiggl
e room fore and aft on the door, it could pull the pins out. It seems the f
urther the pins go into the cabin side openings the better. John G. 409 (WH
ere does one find a 5/16 tap that will go 2 inches into those aluminum tube
s(Pins) without bottoming out on the tap shaft.)> From: dlm46007@cox.net> T
o: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for tho
se who don't frequent VAF site> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 18:43:09 -0700> > -->
RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>> > I spent
about 30 minutes on the phone with Will Peacock; he is the owner of> the a
ircraft; his partner was flying. The aircraft was built by Saint> Aviation.
The aircraft was repaired and is about to start flying again.> Someone has
come up with another latching mechanism and he has indicated he> will send
a picture of same. I will post when I get it. The apparent problem> again
was the rear pin but no one is definite or has a certain tested> solution a
s yet. The windscreen fiberglass crack and the alternator cowl> strike are
from the 4g (as measured by the Dynon) landing. Repairs included> entirely
replacing the tailcone. It is my understanding that the doors are> the orig
inal as built by Saint Aviation> > -----Original Message-----> From: owner-
rv10-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.co
m] On Behalf Of RV Builder> (Michael Sausen)> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008
6:08 PM> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separati
on for those who don't frequent VAF> site> > --> RV10-List message posted b
y: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > --> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>> > Yikes! Tha
t is some serious damage and it really starts to show the> potential of hav
ing the offending door hit the HS on the way out. I'm very> glad I'm going
with Rivetheads blocks rather than the UHMW and hopefully Van> will get the
picture that this is happening way too often for a cheesy> warning light.
Interesting this happened back in Sept but (little) word is> coming out now
. Something smells of lawyer involvement coming. Jesse, who> setup the door
s on that one, you guys or the owner?> > Michael> > -----Original Message--
---> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-se
rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:
49 PM> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for
Sked <ricksked@embarqmail.com>> > > Check out this link> > http://www.vans
airforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28678> > > > > > =====
======> > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: The King has no Clothes |
It's happened a few times now so it's not surprising to see...just
that in this case the door damaged the tail, and there was much
more to clean up. So yeah, it's a problem that can have more
than just "I need to build a new door" repercussions. But, it's
still just the same ol' problem.
As far as the taper IN or taper OUT, I'm sure that their
reasoning is that a taper on the outside will tend to
suck the door in to alignment as the pin goes into
the door post. From a ping engagement length stanpoint,
this gives perhaps a little less pin length to hold the door
all the way in, but the pin should have a lot of
travel to it. It may ideally be that you don't want to
make that taper quite as long.
The pin should engage plenty, so that there's quite a
bit of pin on the back side of that metal door post.
Lest people think that this is a problem with the nylon
blocks, it's not. Those shouldn't be part of what holds
the door shut...they're just there as a guide. The
pin is held by the metal door frame, so not even
the fiberglass should matter much in keeping the door
latched. This is NOT to say that you wouldn't be
better off with the rivethead door latch pins. I don't
have them, but I see that there are some good benefits
to having them. Anything you can do to make it better
is good.
Now, on a pin adequacy as built per-plans, I really
feel that if someone has problems of this sort, and they
built the latches with the proper pin length and engagement,
then the fault is squarely on the pilot. This sort of
accident, with a properly built door/latch, that is
properly secured, just would not happen. Someone has
to screw up somewhere, to have an incident. This is
one reason why door latches without some form of positive
latching mechanism shouldn't be considered at all. The
standard van's inside handles, although ugly, are actually
very functional and provide a great positive latch.
I actually have to make sure to instruct the passenger
how to release pressure by pushing the handle down a bit
so they can squeeze the thumb button. It is very
solid, and just won't move a bit in flight. No,
vibration won't cause it to move, and there is no
way vibration and airframe flexing will release those pins.
It has to have a screwup on the pilots part, or an
improperly cut pin length, or a broken pin, or something
of that nature.
Should a secondary latching mechanism be used? Perhaps.
Again, if you can do something to improve it, just like
the rivethead pins, then it might not be a bad idea.
But, you're going to need to do something that will
latch on the forward are of the door bottom...so that
the front of the door can't come out and catch the
200mph breeze. Straps just won't cut it. A solid
mechanical latch would, perhaps. Is it needed? Well,
it might be a good idea, but again, if you have all the
pins latched right and built it well, you shouldn't have
a big problem the way it is per-plans either. If
someone comes up with a great kit of parts to do such
a nice latch, with drawings on how to install them, and
especially if you can do it as a retrofit on a flying
plane, then I think they could be successful selling
them.
I took 4 flights this weekend and gave rides to a few
various people. On every flight, I personally was
the one to latch the door(s)...both of them. I was
also the one to inspect the pin engagement. You can
even put your fingers on the pin tips on the back pins.
Considering that the pins are latched, and in place
properly, and built properly, I don't live in fear that
my doors are going to fly off. I'm awaiting someone
else putting the rivethead system on AFTER having
completed their doors, and if it goes well for them
I'm considering adding them to mine. The one worry I
have is that I don't particularly like only having the
tips of the pins be nice and solid on those. It would
be nice to have 6 or more inches of tough pin, bonded
in permanently with threads and loctite, so you never
have to worry about the pin tips letting loose.
Still, it seems like it's a great solution that adds
some security.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent
> pictures on the door departure from N416EC. My count is over 100
> followers of this documented build technique.
>
> Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the
> correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.
>
> Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space
> outside). Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the
> Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during
> flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without human
> assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a Secondary
> Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.
>
> I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for even
> mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time. Have a great
> and informative week. I suspect those of us that do not get to go to
> SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers. Tomorrow I will hover
> over the AFS website.
>
> John Cox
> #600
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Windscreen Crazing |
All I can wonder is....yeah, you say they were sprayed within a
few months of each other, but, is the spraylat something you had
to mix up in batches? It seems that maybe there was some chemical
that attacked the windshield that must have come from the
spraylat, or perhaps some cleaner that was used just prior to
spraying it on. That crazing almost HAD to be chemical...not
sun or anything else...so you need to know exactly what was
put on that plexi since it was first opened.....every cleaning
agent, solvent, or anything. I'd wonder about using approved
products, like Plexus, if they're aerosol and you didn't get it
nice and dry and ventilated before the spraylat was applied.
For those who haven't heard....use Kerosene if you need to remove
stuff off the plexi....not other stuff.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
> Yesterday I decided to remove the protective coverings from all my
> windows. The inside had the factory plastic coating still in place and
> the outside had been covered with spraylat after installation of the
> windscreen. I think the spraylat was applied in August 2006. Plane was
> moved to the hanger via a wrecker in December 2006.
>
> We used the lancair method and materials to glue in all of the
> windows. Hysol mixed with flox. Only the windscreen has any signs of
> crazing. We glued a lancair ES, Mark Ritters RV10 and mine within a few
> months of each other. The ES is flying with no problems and Mark's plane
> did not have any cracks using this method. Acetone was used on the glue
> seam and frame but none touched any other part of the glass.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> *Bobby J Hughes*
> 40116
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
Note that the thickness of the actual metal which rotates to engage the fra
me can be changed on those locksets. Again, aslong as the airstream doesn't
get a bite on that leading edge, I don't foresee a another force pulling t
he door off.
JG
List: Door separation for those who don't frequent VAF siteTo: rv10-list@ma
tronics.com
John
I have been reading these threads with interest. I keep coming back to the
door arrangement on my PA28 Cherokee. It is very similar in shape & design
to the -10 except it has two hinges on the side of the door. Over the past
14 years, I have had the door come ajar perhaps a 5 or 6 times (in large p
art due to the door handle design). In every case it was a non-event as the
door would open only open an inch or two. In fact, I mastered the techniqu
e of re-closing the door while in flight ' again not a big deal.
In my opinion, the key to eliminating the risk associated with the -10 is t
o find a way to keep the leading edge of the door secure even if the door p
ins are not inserted correctly. On the top of the Cherokee door, there is a
latch that when closed, pulls the door tight to the door frame with a =93h
ook=94 type latch mechanism. I suspect this might be a bit more robust than
a baggage door latch arrangement.
Just my $0.02
Les Kearney
#40643
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of John GonzalezSent: April-07-08 9:14 AMTo: rv10-l
ist@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for those who don'
t frequent VAF site
When I laminated my door halves, I placed a hardwood blocks for a hardpoint
in the square space above where the front nylon pin block is located. The
idea was to have a place where I can put a locking latch to lock my doors.
I intend to use a latch just like the one used on the baggage door. The la
tch will anchore the front of the door after the standard latch pins close
the door. I am thinking that even with the standard Vans latch pins engaged
and then this latch closed, that in the event that there is some form of m
issalighment and the standard vans pins dissengage , this latch will keep t
he airstream from lifting the front edge of the door and pulling the door o
ff. I am still working on the Van's pins in the doors and will post once al
l is completed. I believe one of the problems is that if there is any wiggl
e room fore and aft on the door, it could pull the pins out. It seems the f
urther the pins go into the cabin side openings the better. John G. 409 (WH
ere does one find a 5/16 tap that will go 2 inches into those aluminum tube
s(Pins) without bottoming out on the tap shaft.)> From: dlm46007@cox.net> T
o: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separation for tho
se who don't frequent VAF site> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 18:43:09 -0700> > -->
RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>> > I spent
about 30 minutes on the phone with Will Peacock; he is the owner of> the a
ircraft; his partner was flying. The aircraft was built by Saint> Aviation.
The aircraft was repaired and is about to start flying again.> Someone has
come up with another latching mechanism and he has indicated he> will send
a picture of same. I will post when I get it. The apparent problem> again
was the rear pin but no one is definite or has a certain tested> solution a
s yet. The windscreen fiberglass crack and the alternator cowl> strike are
from the 4g (as measured by the Dynon) landing. Repairs included> entirely
replacing the tailcone. It is my understanding that the doors are> the orig
inal as built by Saint Aviation> > -----Original Message-----> From: owner-
rv10-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.co
m] On Behalf Of RV Builder> (Michael Sausen)> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008
6:08 PM> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door separati
on for those who don't frequent VAF> site> > --> RV10-List message posted b
y: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > --> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>> > Yikes! Tha
t is some serious damage and it really starts to show the> potential of hav
ing the offending door hit the HS on the way out. I'm very> glad I'm going
with Rivetheads blocks rather than the UHMW and hopefully Van> will get the
picture that this is happening way too often for a cheesy> warning light.
Interesting this happened back in Sept but (little) word is> coming out now
. Something smells of lawyer involvement coming. Jesse, who> setup the door
s on that one, you guys or the owner?> > Michael> > -----Original Message--
---> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-se
rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:
49 PM> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for
Sked <ricksked@embarqmail.com>> > > Check out this link> > http://www.vans
airforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28678> > > > > > =====
======> > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 13
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| Subject: | Windscreen Crazing |
No cleaning was done and the spraylat was actually applied with a new
paintbrush a couple of weeks after the windscreen was installed. All
three planes had the windscreens installed within a few months of each
other. I used Mark Ritter's leftover spraylat so it should not have
caused the problem.
Bobby
(One step forward and two steps back)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Windscreen Crazing
All I can wonder is....yeah, you say they were sprayed within a few
months of each other, but, is the spraylat something you had to mix up
in batches? It seems that maybe there was some chemical that attacked
the windshield that must have come from the spraylat, or perhaps some
cleaner that was used just prior to spraying it on. That crazing almost
HAD to be chemical...not sun or anything else...so you need to know
exactly what was put on that plexi since it was first opened.....every
cleaning agent, solvent, or anything. I'd wonder about using approved
products, like Plexus, if they're aerosol and you didn't get it nice and
dry and ventilated before the spraylat was applied.
For those who haven't heard....use Kerosene if you need to remove stuff
off the plexi....not other stuff.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
> Yesterday I decided to remove the protective coverings from all my
> windows. The inside had the factory plastic coating still in place and
> the outside had been covered with spraylat after installation of the
> windscreen. I think the spraylat was applied in August 2006. Plane was
> moved to the hanger via a wrecker in December 2006.
>
> We used the lancair method and materials to glue in all of the
> windows. Hysol mixed with flox. Only the windscreen has any signs of
> crazing. We glued a lancair ES, Mark Ritters RV10 and mine within a
> few months of each other. The ES is flying with no problems and Mark's
> plane did not have any cracks using this method. Acetone was used on
> the glue seam and frame but none touched any other part of the glass.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> *Bobby J Hughes*
> 40116
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | The King has no Clothes |
I added the pins after I had completed my door. Worked fine. I rechecked
them this weekend after hearing about the mid air door departure and the
adjustment looked fine. Per design the pins do not go all the way into the
frame, they only go to the edge so that when they are extended they do not
hit the side of the air frame only the metal block. In normal opening and
closing I have not had the back pin go outside the guide, but I do have to
"help" the passenger door sometimes to get rear pin the hole, otherwise it
will just hit the edge of the block.
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The King has no Clothes
It's happened a few times now so it's not surprising to see...just
that in this case the door damaged the tail, and there was much
more to clean up. So yeah, it's a problem that can have more
than just "I need to build a new door" repercussions. But, it's
still just the same ol' problem.
As far as the taper IN or taper OUT, I'm sure that their
reasoning is that a taper on the outside will tend to
suck the door in to alignment as the pin goes into
the door post. From a ping engagement length stanpoint,
this gives perhaps a little less pin length to hold the door
all the way in, but the pin should have a lot of
travel to it. It may ideally be that you don't want to
make that taper quite as long.
The pin should engage plenty, so that there's quite a
bit of pin on the back side of that metal door post.
Lest people think that this is a problem with the nylon
blocks, it's not. Those shouldn't be part of what holds
the door shut...they're just there as a guide. The
pin is held by the metal door frame, so not even
the fiberglass should matter much in keeping the door
latched. This is NOT to say that you wouldn't be
better off with the rivethead door latch pins. I don't
have them, but I see that there are some good benefits
to having them. Anything you can do to make it better
is good.
Now, on a pin adequacy as built per-plans, I really
feel that if someone has problems of this sort, and they
built the latches with the proper pin length and engagement,
then the fault is squarely on the pilot. This sort of
accident, with a properly built door/latch, that is
properly secured, just would not happen. Someone has
to screw up somewhere, to have an incident. This is
one reason why door latches without some form of positive
latching mechanism shouldn't be considered at all. The
standard van's inside handles, although ugly, are actually
very functional and provide a great positive latch.
I actually have to make sure to instruct the passenger
how to release pressure by pushing the handle down a bit
so they can squeeze the thumb button. It is very
solid, and just won't move a bit in flight. No,
vibration won't cause it to move, and there is no
way vibration and airframe flexing will release those pins.
It has to have a screwup on the pilots part, or an
improperly cut pin length, or a broken pin, or something
of that nature.
Should a secondary latching mechanism be used? Perhaps.
Again, if you can do something to improve it, just like
the rivethead pins, then it might not be a bad idea.
But, you're going to need to do something that will
latch on the forward are of the door bottom...so that
the front of the door can't come out and catch the
200mph breeze. Straps just won't cut it. A solid
mechanical latch would, perhaps. Is it needed? Well,
it might be a good idea, but again, if you have all the
pins latched right and built it well, you shouldn't have
a big problem the way it is per-plans either. If
someone comes up with a great kit of parts to do such
a nice latch, with drawings on how to install them, and
especially if you can do it as a retrofit on a flying
plane, then I think they could be successful selling
them.
I took 4 flights this weekend and gave rides to a few
various people. On every flight, I personally was
the one to latch the door(s)...both of them. I was
also the one to inspect the pin engagement. You can
even put your fingers on the pin tips on the back pins.
Considering that the pins are latched, and in place
properly, and built properly, I don't live in fear that
my doors are going to fly off. I'm awaiting someone
else putting the rivethead system on AFTER having
completed their doors, and if it goes well for them
I'm considering adding them to mine. The one worry I
have is that I don't particularly like only having the
tips of the pins be nice and solid on those. It would
be nice to have 6 or more inches of tough pin, bonded
in permanently with threads and loctite, so you never
have to worry about the pin tips letting loose.
Still, it seems like it's a great solution that adds
some security.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent
> pictures on the door departure from N416EC. My count is over 100
> followers of this documented build technique.
>
> Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the
> correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.
>
> Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space
> outside). Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the
> Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during
> flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without human
> assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a Secondary
> Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.
>
> I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for even
> mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time. Have a great
> and informative week. I suspect those of us that do not get to go to
> SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers. Tomorrow I will hover
> over the AFS website.
>
> John Cox
> #600
Message 15
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| Subject: | Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? |
By my admittedly inaccurate count there are at least 5 incidents of
RV-10 doors opening in/during flight with resulting damage. One could
logically assume that there have been:
1. More incidents that actually occurred that were not reported or..
2. More incidents that occurred that did not result in damage (I.e
caught and aborted take-off)
In any rate, the incident rate per flying RV-10 ( approaching 5% ??) is
high enough to have caused me to seriously consider whether a secondary
positive door locking mechanism should be added. (I've already got the
warning lights). I spent several hours over the weekend thinking about
a solution. one of which John G. mentioned. One of the people that had
this happen to them developed a custom solution posted on VAF.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=26526.
I know that some will/have taken the position that proper build skills,
the use of alternate products (Rivethead etc. ) good / intended use of
practices and checklists when flying will minimize the possibility or
risk, all true, NO ONE who sets out on a flight plans to have a door
open, but one need only look at the photos of the damage to this recent
incident to realize just how serious the consequences of an incident
like this could be. That coupled with the increasing frequency of
reported incidents is making me very uneasy.
I have also come to appreciate the creativity and expertise that is
contained within this community. (witness the recent threads on Rudder
trim alternatives). So I'm VERY interested in what other builder/fliers
are thinking/doing/planning on this subject.
What you got????
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
Message 16
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| Subject: | Windscreen Crazing |
I thought it was denatured alcohol. Kerosene leaves a oil layer I thought.>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 12:01:32 -0500> From: Tim@MyRV10.com> To: rv10-list@
matronics.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Windscreen Crazing> > --> RV10-List
message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com>> > All I can wonder is....yea
h, you say they were sprayed within a> few months of each other, but, is th
e spraylat something you had> to mix up in batches? It seems that maybe the
re was some chemical> that attacked the windshield that must have come from
the> spraylat, or perhaps some cleaner that was used just prior to> sprayi
ng it on. That crazing almost HAD to be chemical...not> sun or anything els
e...so you need to know exactly what was> put on that plexi since it was fi
rst opened.....every cleaning> agent, solvent, or anything. I'd wonder abou
t using approved> products, like Plexus, if they're aerosol and you didn't
get it> nice and dry and ventilated before the spraylat was applied.> > For
those who haven't heard....use Kerosene if you need to remove> stuff off t
he plexi....not other stuff.> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying> > > > Bo
bby J. Hughes wrote:> > Yesterday I decided to remove the protective coveri
ngs from all my > > windows. The inside had the factory plastic coating sti
ll in place and > > the outside had been covered with spraylat after instal
lation of the > > windscreen. I think the spraylat was applied in August 20
06. Plane was > > moved to the hanger via a wrecker in December 2006.> > >
> We used the lancair method and materials to glue in all of the > > window
s. Hysol mixed with flox. Only the windscreen has any signs of > > crazing.
We glued a lancair ES, Mark Ritters RV10 and mine within a few > > months
of each other. The ES is flying with no problems and Mark's plane > > did n
ot have any cracks using this method. Acetone was used on the glue > > seam
and frame but none touched any other part of the glass.> > > > Any ideas?>
========================> _
===========> > >
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? |
I was just about to post the same question as Deems. I have the Coss Aviation
flush door handles. I also have installed the Rivethead door pins and guides.
Since the handle mechanism does not have a "locking" provision, I am concerned
about the inside handle getting bumped or accidentally moved to the open position.
Any ideas or suggestion would surely be appreciated.
Thanks
--------
Greg Hale rv8/rv10
www.nwacaptain.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175309#175309
Message 18
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| Subject: | The King has no Clothes |
Important question not adressed in the building instructions. When placing
the latch mechanism inside the latch pocket, is it necessary to cut access
holes for the geared arms that interface with the rod pin and the gear so
that not only is there a cut in the pocket for the pin, but also the back h
alf of the gear arm. Basically, when the door is open does the handle go up
to the 90 degree position or does it go all the way to the 180 degree posi
tion.
If the pin was just emerging from the door side while the handle was in the
180 degree position(Facing aft), just think how far the pin will travel wh
en the handle is placed in the closed position. The manual does not state
the number of cuts in the latch pockets??????I haven't fitted the entire me
chanism yet, but real close so I am not certain of how it is supossed to be
..
JG> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:56:21 -0500> From: Tim@MyRV10.com> To: rv10-li
st@matronics.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The King has no Clothes> > --> RV
10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com>> > It's happened a fe
w times now so it's not surprising to see...just> that in this case the doo
r damaged the tail, and there was much> more to clean up. So yeah, it's a p
roblem that can have more> than just "I need to build a new door" repercuss
ions. But, it's> still just the same ol' problem.> > As far as the taper IN
or taper OUT, I'm sure that their> reasoning is that a taper on the outsid
e will tend to> suck the door in to alignment as the pin goes into> the doo
r post. From a ping engagement length stanpoint,> this gives perhaps a litt
le less pin length to hold the door> all the way in, but the pin should hav
e a lot of> travel to it. It may ideally be that you don't want to> make th
at taper quite as long.> > The pin should engage plenty, so that there's qu
ite a> bit of pin on the back side of that metal door post.> Lest people th
ink that this is a problem with the nylon> blocks, it's not. Those shouldn'
t be part of what holds> the door shut...they're just there as a guide. The
> pin is held by the metal door frame, so not even> the fiberglass should m
atter much in keeping the door> latched. This is NOT to say that you wouldn
't be> better off with the rivethead door latch pins. I don't> have them, b
ut I see that there are some good benefits> to having them. Anything you ca
n do to make it better> is good.> > Now, on a pin adequacy as built per-pla
ns, I really> feel that if someone has problems of this sort, and they> bui
lt the latches with the proper pin length and engagement,> then the fault i
s squarely on the pilot. This sort of> accident, with a properly built door
/latch, that is> properly secured, just would not happen. Someone has> to s
crew up somewhere, to have an incident. This is> one reason why door latche
s without some form of positive> latching mechanism shouldn't be considered
at all. The> standard van's inside handles, although ugly, are actually> v
ery functional and provide a great positive latch.> I actually have to make
sure to instruct the passenger> how to release pressure by pushing the han
dle down a bit> so they can squeeze the thumb button. It is very> solid, an
d just won't move a bit in flight. No,> vibration won't cause it to move, a
nd there is no> way vibration and airframe flexing will release those pins.
> It has to have a screwup on the pilots part, or an> improperly cut pin le
ngth, or a broken pin, or something> of that nature.> > Should a secondary
latching mechanism be used? Perhaps.> Again, if you can do something to imp
rove it, just like> the rivethead pins, then it might not be a bad idea.> B
ut, you're going to need to do something that will> latch on the forward ar
e of the door bottom...so that> the front of the door can't come out and ca
tch the> 200mph breeze. Straps just won't cut it. A solid> mechanical latch
would, perhaps. Is it needed? Well,> it might be a good idea, but again, i
f you have all the> pins latched right and built it well, you shouldn't hav
e> a big problem the way it is per-plans either. If> someone comes up with
a great kit of parts to do such> a nice latch, with drawings on how to inst
all them, and> especially if you can do it as a retrofit on a flying> plane
, then I think they could be successful selling> them.> > I took 4 flights
this weekend and gave rides to a few> various people. On every flight, I pe
rsonally was> the one to latch the door(s)...both of them. I was> also the
one to inspect the pin engagement. You can> even put your fingers on the pi
n tips on the back pins.> Considering that the pins are latched, and in pla
ce> properly, and built properly, I don't live in fear that> my doors are g
oing to fly off. I'm awaiting someone> else putting the rivethead system on
AFTER having> completed their doors, and if it goes well for them> I'm con
sidering adding them to mine. The one worry I> have is that I don't particu
larly like only having the> tips of the pins be nice and solid on those. It
would> be nice to have 6 or more inches of tough pin, bonded> in permanent
ly with threads and loctite, so you never> have to worry about the pin tips
letting loose.> Still, it seems like it's a great solution that adds> some
security.> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying> do not archive> > > John W
cificnw.com>> > > > Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive
and excellent> > pictures on the door departure from N416EC. My count is o
ver 100> > followers of this documented build technique.> > > > Would some
Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the> > correct ins
tallation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.> > > > Taper IN (tow
ards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space> > outside). Then second
ly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the> > Jam (what is adequate?
). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during> > flight (so buffeting canno
t cause the rack to move without human> > assistance). And Fourth, the reas
onable consideration of a Secondary> > Latching mechanism to prevent catast
rophic door loss.> > > > I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in th
e Dog House for even> > mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's
time. Have a great> > and informative week. I suspect those of us that do n
ot get to go to> > SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers. Tomorr
========================> _
=====================> > >
Message 19
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| Subject: | Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
While we are in this topic, one additional reason for considering the weari
ng of parachutes??? Reason why Oregon Aero is constructing a different type
of seats to handle my Softie parachutes.
Just food for thought. Still have to get out of the plane without the HS ge
tting you...maybe get out on the side the door came off, atleast look back
first, maybe the whole thing will be missing.
JG> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:48:38 -0400> From: ricksked@embarqmail.com> To
: rv10-list@matronics.com> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for those wh
cksked@embarqmail.com>> > > Check out this link> > http://www.vansairforce.
=============> > >
Message 20
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| Subject: | Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
I'm not sure if I'm going to be a RV-10 parachute wearer-or-not, but
I've wondered about the same thing.
Part of what scares me about the Safety-Latch
(http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=26526) is not
being able to get out. You're literally locked in.
Phil
________________________________
From: John Gonzalez [mailto:indigoonlatigo@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF
site
While we are in this topic, one additional reason for considering the
wearing of parachutes??? Reason why Oregon Aero is constructing a
different type of seats to handle my Softie parachutes.
Just food for thought. Still have to get out of the plane without the HS
getting you...maybe get out on the side the door came off, atleast look
back first, maybe the whole thing will be missing.
JG
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:48:38 -0400
> From: ricksked@embarqmail.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF
site
>
>
>
> Check out this link
>
> http://ww=============
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s |
?
Greg,
I have the Hendricks door handles & Rivethead Door Pins/Guides
that seem to be a very similar set up to yours and Deems. We turned
around the door handle to reduce the chance of the handle getting hooked
on clothing or ??? but that did not make me comfortable enough so we
added a secondary mechanical barrier to the door handle. Photos &
description are detailed at the bottom of this page.
http://www.painttheweb.com/rv-10/doors.htm
This is not a complete solution to all possible door opening
scenarios but primarily a fix for the inadvertent door handle release.
Having now been in 3 airplanes where the door opened in flight
(on takeoff) I have always felt that forward facing door hinges like on
the Cirrus would have been a better design choice for the -10.
Robin
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? |
That's what I like about this forum. You get answer right away. Robin I like
what you have done and may borrow some of your ideas on the handle and the door
hinge covers - pretty nifty.
Andy the link to the pictures really drives the point home. The doors need to
be secured shut.
Greg...
--------
Greg Hale rv8/rv10
www.nwacaptain.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175347#175347
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? |
Deems I know of one out here as well however his did not come off .
regards Chris 388
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deems Davis" <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:39 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ?
>
> By my admittedly inaccurate count there are at least 5 incidents of
> RV-10 doors opening in/during flight with resulting damage. One could
> logically assume that there have been:
> 1. More incidents that actually occurred that were not reported or..
> 2. More incidents that occurred that did not result in damage (I.e
> caught and aborted take-off)
> In any rate, the incident rate per flying RV-10 ( approaching 5% ??) is
> high enough to have caused me to seriously consider whether a secondary
> positive door locking mechanism should be added. (I've already got the
> warning lights). I spent several hours over the weekend thinking about
> a solution. one of which John G. mentioned. One of the people that had
> this happen to them developed a custom solution posted on VAF.
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=26526.
> I know that some will/have taken the position that proper build skills,
> the use of alternate products (Rivethead etc. ) good / intended use of
> practices and checklists when flying will minimize the possibility or
> risk, all true, NO ONE who sets out on a flight plans to have a door
> open, but one need only look at the photos of the damage to this recent
> incident to realize just how serious the consequences of an incident
> like this could be. That coupled with the increasing frequency of
> reported incidents is making me very uneasy.
> I have also come to appreciate the creativity and expertise that is
> contained within this community. (witness the recent threads on Rudder
> trim alternatives). So I'm VERY interested in what other builder/fliers
> are thinking/doing/planning on this subject.
>
> What you got????
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
Phil not sure what you mean about locked in? There is a small pin -lever
on the ouside that can be moved to disingage in case your in an accident
etc.
regards Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Perry, Phil
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:24 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent
VAF site
I'm not sure if I'm going to be a RV-10 parachute wearer-or-not, but
I've wondered about the same thing.
Part of what scares me about the Safety-Latch
(http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=26526) is not
being able to get out. You're literally locked in.
Phil
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: John Gonzalez [mailto:indigoonlatigo@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 1:51 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent
VAF site
While we are in this topic, one additional reason for considering the
wearing of parachutes??? Reason why Oregon Aero is constructing a
different type of seats to handle my Softie parachutes.
Just food for thought. Still have to get out of the plane without the
HS getting you...maybe get out on the side the door came off, atleast
look back first, maybe the whole thing will be missing.
JG
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:48:38 -0400
> From: ricksked@embarqmail.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF
site
>
>
>
> Check out this link
>
> http://ww=============
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: The King has no Clothes |
I installed mine after the fact, and was able to do it just fine. I
took a 7/16" drill and went all the way through the Rivethead blocks, as
well as the door frame, so my pins go all the way through and can be
felt out the back side.
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
Rene Felker wrote:
>
> I added the pins after I had completed my door. Worked fine. I rechecked
> them this weekend after hearing about the mid air door departure and the
> adjustment looked fine. Per design the pins do not go all the way into the
> frame, they only go to the edge so that when they are extended they do not
> hit the side of the air frame only the metal block. In normal opening and
> closing I have not had the back pin go outside the guide, but I do have to
> "help" the passenger door sometimes to get rear pin the hole, otherwise it
> will just hit the edge of the block.
>
> Rene' Felker
> RV-10 N423CF Flying
> 801-721-6080
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
Hi Chris,
I'm talking specifically about the need to open the door (in-flight from
the inside) in the event you decide a parachute would fly better than a
disabled airplane.
The guy who built the safety latch (mentioned in the link below) says
that he's tried to disengage it during flight, but it wouldn't budge
because the doors pull out to the point that the latch is pinned-tight.
That's good if you're trying to keep your doors on, but bad if you
choose to open them during flight.
So that was my reference about being locked in.
Now, for the part of avoiding the HS..... Any ideas?
Phil
________________________________
From: Chris and Susie McGough [mailto:VHMUM@bigpond.com]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF
site
Phil not sure what you mean about locked in? There is a small pin -lever
on the ouside that can be moved to disingage in case your in an accident
etc.
regards Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Perry, Phil <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:24 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't
frequent VAF site
I'm not sure if I'm going to be a RV-10 parachute wearer-or-not,
but I've wondered about the same thing.
Part of what scares me about the Safety-Latch
(http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=26526) is not
being able to get out. You're literally locked in.
Phil
________________________________
From: John Gonzalez [mailto:indigoonlatigo@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 1:51 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't
frequent VAF site
While we are in this topic, one additional reason for
considering the wearing of parachutes??? Reason why Oregon Aero is
constructing a different type of seats to handle my Softie parachutes.
Just food for thought. Still have to get out of the plane
without the HS getting you...maybe get out on the side the door came
off, atleast look back first, maybe the whole thing will be missing.
JG
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:48:38 -0400
> From: ricksked@embarqmail.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't
frequent VAF site
>
<ricksked@embarqmail.com>
>
>
> Check out this link
>
> http://ww=============
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 27
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| Subject: | Another fatal crash.... |
Anyone know who this is?
http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www.fox17.com.shtml
Message 28
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| Subject: | RV-10 Down in Alabama |
Bad new in Alabama. An N210HM went down today killing two on-board.
My prayers go out to them and their families.
http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=8132249&nav=0RdE
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=210HM
Message 29
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| Subject: | Another fatal crash.... |
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=210HM
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:40 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
Anyone know who this is?
http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www.fox17.com.shtml
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Another fatal crash.... |
Hamilton Cartwright, was a nice looking -10. He posted to VAF a few times I saw.
Prayers out from me. That's three too many so far.
Rick Sked
SNF bound..
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Monday, April 7, 2008 6:39:39 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
Anyone know who this is?
http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www.fox17.com.shtml
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Another fatal crash.... |
On the way down here for Sun-N-Fun, it looks like.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210HM
Anybody know him/them?
My heart goes out to the families.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Apr 7, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Rick Sked wrote:
>
> Hamilton Cartwright, was a nice looking -10. He posted to VAF a few
> times I saw. Prayers out from me. That's three too many so far.
>
> Rick Sked
> SNF bound..
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, April 7, 2008 6:39:39 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
>
> >
>
> Anyone know who this is?
>
> http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
>
> http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
>
> http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www.fox17.com.shtml
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Another fatal crash.... |
I don't know him. It looks like this was the first leg that was never
completed.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210HM/history/20080407/1424Z/M54/KEU
F
All aircraft accidents make my heart sink. But these RV-10 accidents
are really close to home.
Prayers,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Saint [mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
On the way down here for Sun-N-Fun, it looks like.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210HM
Anybody know him/them?
My heart goes out to the families.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Apr 7, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Rick Sked wrote:
>
> Hamilton Cartwright, was a nice looking -10. He posted to VAF a few
> times I saw. Prayers out from me. That's three too many so far.
>
> Rick Sked
> SNF bound..
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, April 7, 2008 6:39:39 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
>
> --> <rvbuilder@sausen.net
> >
>
> Anyone know who this is?
>
> http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
>
> http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
>
> http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www
> .fox17.com.shtml
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Another fatal crash.... |
Michael, I have four flying RV-10s from Tennessee yet none of these
match the description based on ownership as reported by the news.
My prayers go out to the families of those affected.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:40 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Anyone know who this is?
http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www.f
ox17.com.shtml
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Another fatal crash.... |
The crash was my good friend Ham Cartwright and his hanger mate Bob..
He is from our chapter 863 Lebanon,Tn..I understand that they were in IMC
conditions!!!!!
It hurts
John McMahon (RV6 CS)
----- Original Message -----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=210HM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
> (Michael Sausen)
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:40 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
>
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> Anyone know who this is?
>
> http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
>
> http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
>
> http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www.fox17.com.shtml
>
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Another fatal crash.... |
Ham Cartwright and hanger mate Bob,from our chapter 863 in Lebanon Tn..They
were in IMC conditions..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@saintaviation.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
>
> On the way down here for Sun-N-Fun, it looks like.
>
> http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210HM
>
> Anybody know him/them?
>
> My heart goes out to the families.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> On Apr 7, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Rick Sked wrote:
>>
>> Hamilton Cartwright, was a nice looking -10. He posted to VAF a few
>> times I saw. Prayers out from me. That's three too many so far.
>>
>> Rick Sked
>> SNF bound..
>>
>> do not archive
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Monday, April 7, 2008 6:39:39 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
>> Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
>>
>> <rvbuilder@sausen.net
>> >
>>
>> Anyone know who this is?
>>
>> http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
>>
>> http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
>>
>> http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www.fox17.com.shtml
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Another fatal crash.... |
I was unable to find any info on Hamilton Cartwright but the other owner M
Cottrell matches to a TN address and seem to be an airline pilot qualified
on all the Boeings and a CFI. Any indication of the weather in the area?
>From the looks of the track he was on approach to the airport.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:48 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
I don't know him. It looks like this was the first leg that was never
completed.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210HM/history/20080407/1424Z/M54/KEU
F
All aircraft accidents make my heart sink. But these RV-10 accidents are
really close to home.
Prayers,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Saint [mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
On the way down here for Sun-N-Fun, it looks like.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210HM
Anybody know him/them?
My heart goes out to the families.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Apr 7, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Rick Sked wrote:
>
> Hamilton Cartwright, was a nice looking -10. He posted to VAF a few
> times I saw. Prayers out from me. That's three too many so far.
>
> Rick Sked
> SNF bound..
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, April 7, 2008 6:39:39 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
>
> --> <rvbuilder@sausen.net
> >
>
> Anyone know who this is?
>
> http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
>
> http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
>
> http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www
> .fox17.com.shtml
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Another fatal crash.... |
Check aircraft registry. N210HM registered to Hermitage TN. H Cartwright jr
and M Cottrell. No airman info on Hamilton Cartwright but plenty on M
Cottrell of TN
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
Michael, I have four flying RV-10s from Tennessee yet none of these match
the description based on ownership as reported by the news.
My prayers go out to the families of those affected.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:40 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Another fatal crash....
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Anyone know who this is?
http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8132249
http://wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=8130777
http://www.wztv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tn/35d58e13-www.f
ox17.com.shtml
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: The King has no Clothes |
One thing I'm not quite sure I understand about the initial posting
origination and that website. Not sure that it matters but...
From information that is pretty reliable that I have been told,
the person who posted the thread and page about that door separation
on 416EC isn't actually the person who was flying the plane at the
time, although that information isn't being presented. The other
perhaps stranger bit of left out information is that the 4G landing
that was described actually happened on a landing prior to the
door separation, and presumably that caused some of the cracking
of the airframe and popped rivets under the wing and such. Also,
the gear leg fairings and wheel fairings were crunched pretty good.
So considering there was so much other damage that would not be
attributable to the door itself, it's a bit strange that it isn't
being offered up that the other damage happened prior.
Oh well, just curious, because the source I had (yes, I've known
about that incident for a while now) is pretty reliable.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Rene Felker wrote:
>
> I added the pins after I had completed my door. Worked fine. I rechecked
> them this weekend after hearing about the mid air door departure and the
> adjustment looked fine. Per design the pins do not go all the way into the
> frame, they only go to the edge so that when they are extended they do not
> hit the side of the air frame only the metal block. In normal opening and
> closing I have not had the back pin go outside the guide, but I do have to
> "help" the passenger door sometimes to get rear pin the hole, otherwise it
> will just hit the edge of the block.
>
> Rene' Felker
> RV-10 N423CF Flying
> 801-721-6080
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:56 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The King has no Clothes
>
>
> It's happened a few times now so it's not surprising to see...just
> that in this case the door damaged the tail, and there was much
> more to clean up. So yeah, it's a problem that can have more
> than just "I need to build a new door" repercussions. But, it's
> still just the same ol' problem.
>
> As far as the taper IN or taper OUT, I'm sure that their
> reasoning is that a taper on the outside will tend to
> suck the door in to alignment as the pin goes into
> the door post. From a ping engagement length stanpoint,
> this gives perhaps a little less pin length to hold the door
> all the way in, but the pin should have a lot of
> travel to it. It may ideally be that you don't want to
> make that taper quite as long.
>
> The pin should engage plenty, so that there's quite a
> bit of pin on the back side of that metal door post.
> Lest people think that this is a problem with the nylon
> blocks, it's not. Those shouldn't be part of what holds
> the door shut...they're just there as a guide. The
> pin is held by the metal door frame, so not even
> the fiberglass should matter much in keeping the door
> latched. This is NOT to say that you wouldn't be
> better off with the rivethead door latch pins. I don't
> have them, but I see that there are some good benefits
> to having them. Anything you can do to make it better
> is good.
>
> Now, on a pin adequacy as built per-plans, I really
> feel that if someone has problems of this sort, and they
> built the latches with the proper pin length and engagement,
> then the fault is squarely on the pilot. This sort of
> accident, with a properly built door/latch, that is
> properly secured, just would not happen. Someone has
> to screw up somewhere, to have an incident. This is
> one reason why door latches without some form of positive
> latching mechanism shouldn't be considered at all. The
> standard van's inside handles, although ugly, are actually
> very functional and provide a great positive latch.
> I actually have to make sure to instruct the passenger
> how to release pressure by pushing the handle down a bit
> so they can squeeze the thumb button. It is very
> solid, and just won't move a bit in flight. No,
> vibration won't cause it to move, and there is no
> way vibration and airframe flexing will release those pins.
> It has to have a screwup on the pilots part, or an
> improperly cut pin length, or a broken pin, or something
> of that nature.
>
> Should a secondary latching mechanism be used? Perhaps.
> Again, if you can do something to improve it, just like
> the rivethead pins, then it might not be a bad idea.
> But, you're going to need to do something that will
> latch on the forward are of the door bottom...so that
> the front of the door can't come out and catch the
> 200mph breeze. Straps just won't cut it. A solid
> mechanical latch would, perhaps. Is it needed? Well,
> it might be a good idea, but again, if you have all the
> pins latched right and built it well, you shouldn't have
> a big problem the way it is per-plans either. If
> someone comes up with a great kit of parts to do such
> a nice latch, with drawings on how to install them, and
> especially if you can do it as a retrofit on a flying
> plane, then I think they could be successful selling
> them.
>
> I took 4 flights this weekend and gave rides to a few
> various people. On every flight, I personally was
> the one to latch the door(s)...both of them. I was
> also the one to inspect the pin engagement. You can
> even put your fingers on the pin tips on the back pins.
> Considering that the pins are latched, and in place
> properly, and built properly, I don't live in fear that
> my doors are going to fly off. I'm awaiting someone
> else putting the rivethead system on AFTER having
> completed their doors, and if it goes well for them
> I'm considering adding them to mine. The one worry I
> have is that I don't particularly like only having the
> tips of the pins be nice and solid on those. It would
> be nice to have 6 or more inches of tough pin, bonded
> in permanently with threads and loctite, so you never
> have to worry about the pin tips letting loose.
> Still, it seems like it's a great solution that adds
> some security.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> John W. Cox wrote:
>>
>> Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent
>> pictures on the door departure from N416EC. My count is over 100
>> followers of this documented build technique.
>>
>> Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the
>> correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.
>>
>> Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space
>> outside). Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the
>> Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during
>> flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without human
>> assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a Secondary
>> Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.
>>
>> I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for even
>> mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time. Have a great
>> and informative week. I suspect those of us that do not get to go to
>> SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers. Tomorrow I will hover
>> over the AFS website.
>>
>> John Cox
>> #600
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ? |
All the extra latching mechanisms seem great but, there is a lot of air
pressure outside those doors even on take off roll. Any way to use that
pressure to keep the doors closed, even with the hinges on top?
Dave Leikam
40496
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deems Davis" <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:39 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s ?
>
> By my admittedly inaccurate count there are at least 5 incidents of RV-10
> doors opening in/during flight with resulting damage. One could logically
> assume that there have been:
> 1. More incidents that actually occurred that were not reported or..
> 2. More incidents that occurred that did not result in damage (I.e caught
> and aborted take-off)
> In any rate, the incident rate per flying RV-10 ( approaching 5% ??) is
> high enough to have caused me to seriously consider whether a secondary
> positive door locking mechanism should be added. (I've already got the
> warning lights). I spent several hours over the weekend thinking about a
> solution. one of which John G. mentioned. One of the people that had this
> happen to them developed a custom solution posted on VAF.
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=26526.
> I know that some will/have taken the position that proper build skills,
> the use of alternate products (Rivethead etc. ) good / intended use of
> practices and checklists when flying will minimize the possibility or
> risk, all true, NO ONE who sets out on a flight plans to have a door
> open, but one need only look at the photos of the damage to this recent
> incident to realize just how serious the consequences of an incident like
> this could be. That coupled with the increasing frequency of reported
> incidents is making me very uneasy.
> I have also come to appreciate the creativity and expertise that is
> contained within this community. (witness the recent threads on Rudder
> trim alternatives). So I'm VERY interested in what other builder/fliers
> are thinking/doing/planning on this subject.
>
> What you got????
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s |
?
When a door opens in flight, the greater/higher pressure is most alway
on the inside of the aircraft. In some high performance aircraft even
with forward hinged doors traveling in excess of 200 mph, it is
physically impossible to close the door while in flight. (remember
Bernoulli?)
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s |
?
Vortex generators placed on the inside of the doors.....then open
the cockpit air vents and aim them aft along the door surface. ;)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Deems Davis wrote:
>
> When a door opens in flight, the greater/higher pressure is most alway
> on the inside of the aircraft. In some high performance aircraft even
> with forward hinged doors traveling in excess of 200 mph, it is
> physically impossible to close the door while in flight. (remember
> Bernoulli?)
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>>
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Re: The King has no Clothes |
Tim,
Are you suggesting that the hard landing damage may have caused the later
door failure?
Dave Leikam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@myrv10.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The King has no Clothes
>
> One thing I'm not quite sure I understand about the initial posting
> origination and that website. Not sure that it matters but...
> From information that is pretty reliable that I have been told,
> the person who posted the thread and page about that door separation
> on 416EC isn't actually the person who was flying the plane at the
> time, although that information isn't being presented. The other
> perhaps stranger bit of left out information is that the 4G landing
> that was described actually happened on a landing prior to the
> door separation, and presumably that caused some of the cracking
> of the airframe and popped rivets under the wing and such. Also,
> the gear leg fairings and wheel fairings were crunched pretty good.
> So considering there was so much other damage that would not be
> attributable to the door itself, it's a bit strange that it isn't
> being offered up that the other damage happened prior.
>
> Oh well, just curious, because the source I had (yes, I've known
> about that incident for a while now) is pretty reliable.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Rene Felker wrote:
>>
>> I added the pins after I had completed my door. Worked fine. I
>> rechecked
>> them this weekend after hearing about the mid air door departure and the
>> adjustment looked fine. Per design the pins do not go all the way into
>> the
>> frame, they only go to the edge so that when they are extended they do
>> not
>> hit the side of the air frame only the metal block. In normal opening and
>> closing I have not had the back pin go outside the guide, but I do have
>> to
>> "help" the passenger door sometimes to get rear pin the hole, otherwise
>> it
>> will just hit the edge of the block.
>>
>> Rene' Felker
>> RV-10 N423CF Flying
>> 801-721-6080
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:56 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The King has no Clothes
>>
>>
>> It's happened a few times now so it's not surprising to see...just
>> that in this case the door damaged the tail, and there was much
>> more to clean up. So yeah, it's a problem that can have more
>> than just "I need to build a new door" repercussions. But, it's
>> still just the same ol' problem.
>>
>> As far as the taper IN or taper OUT, I'm sure that their
>> reasoning is that a taper on the outside will tend to
>> suck the door in to alignment as the pin goes into
>> the door post. From a ping engagement length stanpoint,
>> this gives perhaps a little less pin length to hold the door
>> all the way in, but the pin should have a lot of
>> travel to it. It may ideally be that you don't want to
>> make that taper quite as long.
>>
>> The pin should engage plenty, so that there's quite a
>> bit of pin on the back side of that metal door post.
>> Lest people think that this is a problem with the nylon
>> blocks, it's not. Those shouldn't be part of what holds
>> the door shut...they're just there as a guide. The
>> pin is held by the metal door frame, so not even
>> the fiberglass should matter much in keeping the door
>> latched. This is NOT to say that you wouldn't be
>> better off with the rivethead door latch pins. I don't
>> have them, but I see that there are some good benefits
>> to having them. Anything you can do to make it better
>> is good.
>>
>> Now, on a pin adequacy as built per-plans, I really
>> feel that if someone has problems of this sort, and they
>> built the latches with the proper pin length and engagement,
>> then the fault is squarely on the pilot. This sort of
>> accident, with a properly built door/latch, that is
>> properly secured, just would not happen. Someone has
>> to screw up somewhere, to have an incident. This is
>> one reason why door latches without some form of positive
>> latching mechanism shouldn't be considered at all. The
>> standard van's inside handles, although ugly, are actually
>> very functional and provide a great positive latch.
>> I actually have to make sure to instruct the passenger
>> how to release pressure by pushing the handle down a bit
>> so they can squeeze the thumb button. It is very
>> solid, and just won't move a bit in flight. No,
>> vibration won't cause it to move, and there is no
>> way vibration and airframe flexing will release those pins.
>> It has to have a screwup on the pilots part, or an
>> improperly cut pin length, or a broken pin, or something
>> of that nature.
>>
>> Should a secondary latching mechanism be used? Perhaps.
>> Again, if you can do something to improve it, just like
>> the rivethead pins, then it might not be a bad idea.
>> But, you're going to need to do something that will
>> latch on the forward are of the door bottom...so that
>> the front of the door can't come out and catch the
>> 200mph breeze. Straps just won't cut it. A solid
>> mechanical latch would, perhaps. Is it needed? Well,
>> it might be a good idea, but again, if you have all the
>> pins latched right and built it well, you shouldn't have
>> a big problem the way it is per-plans either. If
>> someone comes up with a great kit of parts to do such
>> a nice latch, with drawings on how to install them, and
>> especially if you can do it as a retrofit on a flying
>> plane, then I think they could be successful selling
>> them.
>>
>> I took 4 flights this weekend and gave rides to a few
>> various people. On every flight, I personally was
>> the one to latch the door(s)...both of them. I was
>> also the one to inspect the pin engagement. You can
>> even put your fingers on the pin tips on the back pins.
>> Considering that the pins are latched, and in place
>> properly, and built properly, I don't live in fear that
>> my doors are going to fly off. I'm awaiting someone
>> else putting the rivethead system on AFTER having
>> completed their doors, and if it goes well for them
>> I'm considering adding them to mine. The one worry I
>> have is that I don't particularly like only having the
>> tips of the pins be nice and solid on those. It would
>> be nice to have 6 or more inches of tough pin, bonded
>> in permanently with threads and loctite, so you never
>> have to worry about the pin tips letting loose.
>> Still, it seems like it's a great solution that adds
>> some security.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> John W. Cox wrote:
>>>
>>> Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent
>>> pictures on the door departure from N416EC. My count is over 100
>>> followers of this documented build technique.
>>>
>>> Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the
>>> correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.
>>>
>>> Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space
>>> outside). Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the
>>> Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during
>>> flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without human
>>> assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a Secondary
>>> Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.
>>>
>>> I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for even
>>> mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time. Have a great
>>> and informative week. I suspect those of us that do not get to go to
>>> SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers. Tomorrow I will hover
>>> over the AFS website.
>>>
>>> John Cox
>>> #600
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | The King has no Clothes |
That does make a little more sense. Possible structural damage prior to the
loss of the door. I wondered how the left dor block got so beat up.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: The King has no Clothes
One thing I'm not quite sure I understand about the initial posting
origination and that website. Not sure that it matters but...
From information that is pretty reliable that I have been told, the person
who posted the thread and page about that door separation on 416EC isn't
actually the person who was flying the plane at the time, although that
information isn't being presented. The other perhaps stranger bit of left
out information is that the 4G landing that was described actually happened
on a landing prior to the door separation, and presumably that caused some
of the cracking of the airframe and popped rivets under the wing and such.
Also, the gear leg fairings and wheel fairings were crunched pretty good.
So considering there was so much other damage that would not be attributable
to the door itself, it's a bit strange that it isn't being offered up that
the other damage happened prior.
Oh well, just curious, because the source I had (yes, I've known about that
incident for a while now) is pretty reliable.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Rene Felker wrote:
>
> I added the pins after I had completed my door. Worked fine. I
> rechecked them this weekend after hearing about the mid air door
> departure and the adjustment looked fine. Per design the pins do not
> go all the way into the frame, they only go to the edge so that when
> they are extended they do not hit the side of the air frame only the
> metal block. In normal opening and closing I have not had the back pin
> go outside the guide, but I do have to "help" the passenger door
> sometimes to get rear pin the hole, otherwise it will just hit the edge of
the block.
>
> Rene' Felker
> RV-10 N423CF Flying
> 801-721-6080
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:56 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: The King has no Clothes
>
>
> It's happened a few times now so it's not surprising to see...just
> that in this case the door damaged the tail, and there was much more
> to clean up. So yeah, it's a problem that can have more than just "I
> need to build a new door" repercussions. But, it's still just the
> same ol' problem.
>
> As far as the taper IN or taper OUT, I'm sure that their reasoning is
> that a taper on the outside will tend to suck the door in to alignment
> as the pin goes into the door post. From a ping engagement length
> stanpoint, this gives perhaps a little less pin length to hold the
> door all the way in, but the pin should have a lot of travel to it.
> It may ideally be that you don't want to make that taper quite as
> long.
>
> The pin should engage plenty, so that there's quite a bit of pin on
> the back side of that metal door post.
> Lest people think that this is a problem with the nylon blocks, it's
> not. Those shouldn't be part of what holds the door shut...they're
> just there as a guide. The pin is held by the metal door frame, so
> not even the fiberglass should matter much in keeping the door
> latched. This is NOT to say that you wouldn't be better off with the
> rivethead door latch pins. I don't have them, but I see that there are
> some good benefits to having them. Anything you can do to make it
> better is good.
>
> Now, on a pin adequacy as built per-plans, I really feel that if
> someone has problems of this sort, and they built the latches with the
> proper pin length and engagement, then the fault is squarely on the
> pilot. This sort of accident, with a properly built door/latch, that
> is properly secured, just would not happen. Someone has to screw up
> somewhere, to have an incident. This is one reason why door latches
> without some form of positive latching mechanism shouldn't be
> considered at all. The standard van's inside handles, although ugly,
> are actually very functional and provide a great positive latch.
> I actually have to make sure to instruct the passenger how to release
> pressure by pushing the handle down a bit so they can squeeze the
> thumb button. It is very solid, and just won't move a bit in flight.
> No, vibration won't cause it to move, and there is no way vibration
> and airframe flexing will release those pins.
> It has to have a screwup on the pilots part, or an improperly cut pin
> length, or a broken pin, or something of that nature.
>
> Should a secondary latching mechanism be used? Perhaps.
> Again, if you can do something to improve it, just like the rivethead
> pins, then it might not be a bad idea.
> But, you're going to need to do something that will latch on the
> forward are of the door bottom...so that the front of the door can't
> come out and catch the 200mph breeze. Straps just won't cut it. A
> solid mechanical latch would, perhaps. Is it needed? Well, it might
> be a good idea, but again, if you have all the pins latched right and
> built it well, you shouldn't have a big problem the way it is
> per-plans either. If someone comes up with a great kit of parts to do
> such a nice latch, with drawings on how to install them, and
> especially if you can do it as a retrofit on a flying plane, then I
> think they could be successful selling them.
>
> I took 4 flights this weekend and gave rides to a few various people.
> On every flight, I personally was the one to latch the door(s)...both
> of them. I was
> also the one to inspect the pin engagement. You can
> even put your fingers on the pin tips on the back pins.
> Considering that the pins are latched, and in place properly, and
> built properly, I don't live in fear that my doors are going to fly
> off. I'm awaiting someone else putting the rivethead system on AFTER
> having completed their doors, and if it goes well for them I'm
> considering adding them to mine. The one worry I have is that I don't
> particularly like only having the tips of the pins be nice and solid
> on those. It would be nice to have 6 or more inches of tough pin,
> bonded in permanently with threads and loctite, so you never have to
> worry about the pin tips letting loose.
> Still, it seems like it's a great solution that adds some security.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> John W. Cox wrote:
>> --> <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>>
>> Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent
>> pictures on the door departure from N416EC. My count is over 100
>> followers of this documented build technique.
>>
>> Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify
>> the correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.
>>
>> Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space
>> outside). Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in
>> the Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged
>> during flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without
>> human assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a
>> Secondary Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.
>>
>> I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for
>> even mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time. Have a
>> great and informative week. I suspect those of us that do not get to
>> go to SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers. Tomorrow I
>> will hover over the AFS website.
>>
>> John Cox
>> #600
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the fix/s |
?
I had a door partially open on a warrior I was flying about a year ago. We
landed without incident and properly closed the door. In flight, the door
could not be closed or opened more to "slam" it shut. It was kind of stuck
ajar. I do understand the greater interior pressure. Just thinking.
Dave Leikam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deems Davis" <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door separation/opening is an issue, what's the
fix/s ?
>
> When a door opens in flight, the greater/higher pressure is most alway on
> the inside of the aircraft. In some high performance aircraft even with
> forward hinged doors traveling in excess of 200 mph, it is physically
> impossible to close the door while in flight. (remember Bernoulli?)
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>>
>
>
>
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Door seperation for those who don't frequent VAF site |
Gotcha Phil thanks. Just shows the pressure on the doors
regards chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Perry, Phil
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent
VAF site
Hi Chris,
I'm talking specifically about the need to open the door (in-flight
from the inside) in the event you decide a parachute would fly better
than a disabled airplane.
The guy who built the safety latch (mentioned in the link below) says
that he's tried to disengage it during flight, but it wouldn't budge
because the doors pull out to the point that the latch is pinned-tight.
That's good if you're trying to keep your doors on, but bad if you
choose to open them during flight.
So that was my reference about being locked in.
Now, for the part of avoiding the HS..... Any ideas?
Phil
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Chris and Susie McGough [mailto:VHMUM@bigpond.com]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:27 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent
VAF site
Phil not sure what you mean about locked in? There is a small pin
-lever on the ouside that can be moved to disingage in case your in an
accident etc.
regards Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Perry, Phil
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:24 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent
VAF site
I'm not sure if I'm going to be a RV-10 parachute wearer-or-not, but
I've wondered about the same thing.
Part of what scares me about the Safety-Latch
(http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=26526) is not
being able to get out. You're literally locked in.
Phil
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: John Gonzalez [mailto:indigoonlatigo@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 1:51 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent
VAF site
While we are in this topic, one additional reason for considering
the wearing of parachutes??? Reason why Oregon Aero is constructing a
different type of seats to handle my Softie parachutes.
Just food for thought. Still have to get out of the plane without
the HS getting you...maybe get out on the side the door came off,
atleast look back first, maybe the whole thing will be missing.
JG
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:48:38 -0400
> From: ricksked@embarqmail.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Door seperation for those who don't frequent
VAF site
>
<ricksked@embarqmail.com>
>
>
> Check out this link
>
> http://ww=============
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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