---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/16/08: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:39 AM - Re: Recommendations for front air vents (Tim Lewis) 2. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: doors again (Tim Olson) 3. 04:51 AM - Re: Recommendations for front air vents (Tim Olson) 4. 05:10 AM - Re: doors again (Lew Gallagher) 5. 06:17 AM - Re: RV-10 Wing Stall Photo Series (Doerr, Ray R [NTK]) 6. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: wing rotisserie & paint booth (Bobby J. Hughes) 7. 07:16 AM - Re: AFS Systems .... and others (johngoodman) 8. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (GRANSCOTT@aol.com) 9. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: doors again (John Gonzalez) 10. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (John Jessen) 11. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (Pascal) 12. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (Ralph E. Capen) 13. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (Bobby J. Hughes) 14. 09:06 AM - Way to go....NASA (John Jessen) 15. 09:41 AM - Re: Way to go....NASA (bruce breckenridge) 16. 10:07 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (Robin Marks) 17. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (John Cox) 18. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (John Cox) 19. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (David McNeill) 20. 03:04 PM - Re: AFS Systems .... and others (N777TY) 21. 06:35 PM - door seals (David McNeill) 22. 06:46 PM - Re: door seals (Kelly McMullen) 23. 07:03 PM - door seals (Kelly McMullen) 24. 07:19 PM - Re: door seals (David McNeill) 25. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (linn Walters) 26. 07:42 PM - Re: door seals (Dave Lammers) 27. 07:43 PM - Re: Way to go....NASA (DejaVu) 28. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (Richard Sipp) 29. 08:36 PM - Re: door seals (David McNeill) 30. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... (G900X panel cost / Stick Clearance) (Robin Marks) 31. 09:03 PM - Re: AFS Systems .... and others (William Curtis) 32. 10:00 PM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... (G900X panel cost / Stick Clearance) (John Cox) 33. 10:01 PM - Torque wing bolts (Chris and Susie McGough) 34. 10:34 PM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (John Cox) 35. 11:12 PM - Re: Re: AFS Systems .... and others (Robin Marks) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:07 AM PST US From: Tim Lewis Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents The $18 plastic ones from Vans (approximate price) work fine if you add a little RTV to seal the leak in the "closed" position. I believe the process is discussed in 21 Years of the RVator. It's also discussed in the RV-list archives. I used it in my -6A, works well. I'm doing the same thing for my RV-10. Tim -- Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA) RV-6A N47TD -- 1000 hrs RV-10 #40059 under construction Fred Williams, M.D. wrote: > > > Any recommendations for the front air vents? > Vans wants $145 for the aluminum ones > > Aircraft Spruce has several varieties in the $175 price range. > Is this is the part of the building where you say to the dealer? > > ........ hit me . :-) > > > Lew: good job on the wheel pants. Thanks for the reference, but I > just added the pics. Our late friend, Mark Ritter showed me how to do > it when I looked at his plane a couple of months ago. And I will be > "displeased" if you get flying before I do. > > > Fred Williams > 40515. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:04 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: doors again Yes, holes on both sides for the gear bars to go in and out. And, it's important to position the bars on just the right teeth so you get maximum extension on the rods. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive John Gonzalez wrote: > NO one ever answerred my question to this email below I sent a week or > so ago. > > Thanks! > > This could be the source of the problem right here, as long as the pins > are long enough to just be emerging from the door while the handle is in > the 130 degree position: > > *Important question not adressed in the building instructions. When > placing the latch mechanism inside the latch pocket, is it necessary to > cut access holes for the geared arms that interface with the rod pin and > the gear so that not only is there a cut in the pocket for the pin, but > also the back half of the gear arm. Basically, when the door is open > does the handle go up to the 90 degree position or does it go all the > way to the 180 degree position. > > If the pin was just emerging from the door side while the handle was in > the 180 degree position(Facing aft), just think how far the pin will > travel when the handle is placed in the closed position. The manual > does not state the number of cuts in the latch pockets??????I haven't > *fitted the entire mechanism yet, but real close so I am not certain of > how it is supossed to be.. > > JG > > > > > > Subject: RV10-List: Re: doors again > > From: lewgall@charter.net > > Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:03:13 -0700 > > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > > > > > > Again, I did not thread the rods, just stuck a pencil in the hole > with a bit of masking tape to make it firm and centered, and marked away > -- it came out perfect. > > > > Using someone else's idea, I carved out the BACKSIDE of where the > toothed bar retracts, and also a bit of the teflon (where the retaining > pin on the toothed bar and the split end of the rod bumps in full open > position) so that the pins can retract to the maximum -- which allows > you to set the rod at maximum penetration in closed position (make sure > they're set on the absolute last possible tooth). In open position, the > inside handle is at about 130 degrees instead of 90. > > > > I get full penetration through all three structures. No threads. The > taper pulls the door in snug with no help at all, no movement at all > once it's shut. This weekend we'll temporarily install the provided > weather strip with double sided carpet tape to see if we can accomplish > the same fit. I can probably post pictures later if there's interest. > > > > This is not the right thread, but I gotta tell ya, I very much > appreciate the info on the crashes, and it's VERY sobering if not > downright discouraging. > > > > Later, - Lew > > > > -------- > > non-pilot > > crazy about building > > NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549 > > doors almost finished, pants on, WHEW! > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177090#177090 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > &g=============== > > > > > > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:54 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents Depends on what is "fine". They leak without sealant, that's for sure, and they have no where near the flow of the aluminum. I was lucky enough to get a pile of time with the old, and then switch to the aluminum. I'd never go back....they're actually worth the difference. But, for those on a super tight budget, it's an easy thing to use plastic for a while...one of the more painless future upgrades. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Tim Lewis wrote: > > The $18 plastic ones from Vans (approximate price) work fine if you add > a little RTV to seal the leak in the "closed" position. I believe the > process is discussed in 21 Years of the RVator. It's also discussed in > the RV-list archives. I used it in my -6A, works well. I'm doing the > same thing for my RV-10. > > Tim > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:29 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: doors again From: "Lew Gallagher" Hey John (JG), That's the one! It was YOUR post that gave me the idea to play with the holes on the backside -- I just now got there, and it works. Try it, you'll like it! Thanks, - Lew -------- non-pilot crazy about building NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549 doors almost finished, pants on, WHEW! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177164#177164 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:30 AM PST US From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Wing Stall Photo Series Tim, those are very cool pictures. Thank You Ray Doerr Airplane is finally in the paint shop after 2 years of flying. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Wing Stall Photo Series Had to go out last night for a school project for my girl.... or at least that's the perfect excuse for it. Here's a photo series you RV-10 nuts might like....shows a bunch of shots leading up to a big stall of the wing. http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/flights/20080414 Enjoy! Tim -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: wing rotisserie & paint booth From: "Bobby J. Hughes" The rotisserie wing stands where used to build my wings. I could offset, rotate the wings vertical and slide them to the side of my garage. My wife was then able to park in the garage and life was good. There may be a better method and this may be overkill for painting. I also used one pair of stands as wing cradles for storage and moving the wings to the airport. Just cut the wing rib pattern in the plywood bracing and cover with carpet. Bobby 40116 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 8:44 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: wing rotisserie & paint booth Bobbie sent me the file to post since it was a little big for the email list. Here's a link: Http://www.MyRV10.com/tips/paint/Wing_Stands.pdf I'll get it worked into the regular tips area soon, but at least for now you all have a place to download it. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive tomhanaway wrote: > > Bobby, > I'm giving some thought to painting also. Could you email me the info also. > Thanks, > Tom Hanaway > > tomhanaway@comcast.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177114#177114 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:52 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "johngoodman" John, In response to your question. The Odyssey looks very good. MGL has earlier products so they are not exactly new to the game. I agree that some manufacturers will drop out in time and who knows which ones. The one thing I like about them is willingness to incorporate 3rd party devices. They are fine with Trio or TruTrak, and probably can work with any other manufacturer that uses ARINC 429. They can make the Dynon Pitot/AOA work, the AFS holes, and can even accomodate home-made AoA systems. I'll keep an eye on them. Just like Oshkosh, I found Sun 'n fun overwhelming in the avionics areas. Too many things to absorb. The one thing I have gotten out of it however, is the high prices and arrogance of the Garmin folks. John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177184#177184 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:17 AM PST US From: GRANSCOTT@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others In a message dated 4/16/2008 9:18:34 AM Central Daylight Time, johngoodman@earthlink.net writes: is the high prices and arrogance of the Garmin folks Anyone else get the feeling that now since garmin has gone from aviation background to the general public in car devices...they really don't need aviation anymore or certainly have an attitude like this? We're sort of their test market and highest profit margin per product area, but lowest market unit area... P **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:52 AM PST US From: John Gonzalez Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: doors again Thanks Ron, I cut the holes anyway, but was skiing last weekend so I haven't finished t he pin install. If I don't get enough length with the Van's pins and bolt a ssembly, I'll make up my own from new tube stock. JOhn Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: doors againDate: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:50:25 +093 0From: ron.mcgann@baesystems.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Hey John, The plans are silent on this, but attached is a photo of 410RV. If you do not cut the hole in the back of the pocket, there is no way to achieve requ ired full pin travel. cheers, Ron - almost there From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of John GonzalezSent: Wednesday, 16 April 2008 2:31 PMTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: Re: doors again NO one ever answerred my question to this email below I sent a week or so a go. Thanks! This could be the source of the problem right here, as long a s the pins are long enough to just be emerging from the door while the hand le is in the 130 degree position: Important question not adressed in the bu ilding instructions. When placing the latch mechanism inside the latch poc ket, is it necessary to cut access holes for the geared arms that interface with the rod pin and the gear so that not only is there a cut in the pocke t for the pin, but also the back half of the gear arm. Basically, when the door is open does the handle go up to the 90 degree position or does it go all the way to the 180 degree position. If the pin was just emerging from the door side while the handle was in the 180 degree position(Facing aft), just think how far the pin will travel when the handle is placed in the clo sed position. The manual does not state the number of cuts in the latch po ckets??????I haven't fitted the entire mechanism yet, but real close so I a m not certain of how it is supossed to be.. JG > Subject: RV10-List: Re: do ors again> From: lewgall@charter.net> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:03:13 -0700 agher" > > Again, I did not thread the rods, just stuc k a pencil in the hole with a bit of masking tape to make it firm and cente red, and marked away -- it came out perfect.> > Using someone else's idea, I carved out the BACKSIDE of where the toothed bar retracts, and also a bit of the teflon (where the retaining pin on the toothed bar and the split en d of the rod bumps in full open position) so that the pins can retract to t he maximum -- which allows you to set the rod at maximum penetration in clo sed position (make sure they're set on the absolute last possible tooth). I n open position, the inside handle is at about 130 degrees instead of 90.> > I get full penetration through all three structures. No threads. The tape r pulls the door in snug with no help at all, no movement at all once it's shut. This weekend we'll temporarily install the provided weather strip wit h double sided carpet tape to see if we can accomplish the same fit. I can probably post pictures later if there's interest.> > This is not the right thread, but I gotta tell ya, I very much appreciate the info on the crashes , and it's VERY sobering if not downright discouraging.> > Later, - Lew> > --------> non-pilot> crazy about building> NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549> do ors almost finished, pants on, WHEW!> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177090#177090> > > > > > > &g================> > > p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ics.com .matronics.com/contribution "Warning: The information contained in this email and any attached files is confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to your computer." ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:02 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: John Jessen Garmin's arrogance has been evident for years, long before their new found consumer market. They remind me very much of MS, somewhat deserving of pride, but sadly marred by it. John J do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:26 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others In a message dated 4/16/2008 9:18:34 AM Central Daylight Time, johngoodman@earthlink.net writes: is the high prices and arrogance of the Garmin folks Anyone else get the feeling that now since garmin has gone from aviation background to the general public in car devices...they really don't need aviation anymore or certainly have an attitude like this? We're sort of their test market and highest profit margin per product area, but lowest market unit area... P _____ It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:38 AM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others with the G1000 and G900 I think the Garmin folks are more "we're better than thou" than thinking we are their test bed. Some company reps get that way, figure they don't need anyone when they are selling products based on the name alone. Arrogance is from thinking they dont need us as much as they think we need them.. Sadly I need a 430w to go with my AFS system.. until there is a good replacement I really dont have much of a choice.. happens when a company buys their competition (Apollo/UPS) Pascal ----- Original Message ----- From: GRANSCOTT@aol.com To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:26 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others In a message dated 4/16/2008 9:18:34 AM Central Daylight Time, johngoodman@earthlink.net writes: is the high prices and arrogance of the Garmin folks Anyone else get the feeling that now since garmin has gone from aviation background to the general public in car devices...they really don't need aviation anymore or certainly have an attitude like this? We're sort of their test market and highest profit margin per product area, but lowest market unit area... P ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:06 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others Pascal's hit the nail on the head! UPSAT had a great line of products that kept Garmin on their toes and reasonable. Garmin's taken some of the good things and discarded some of the good things. If there were only some competition.... -----Original Message----- >From: Pascal >Sent: Apr 16, 2008 11:13 AM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others > >with the G1000 and G900 I think the Garmin folks are more "we're better than thou" than thinking we are their test bed. Some company reps get that way, figure they don't need anyone when they are selling products based on the name alone. >Arrogance is from thinking they dont need us as much as they think we need them.. Sadly I need a 430w to go with my AFS system.. until there is a good replacement I really dont have much of a choice.. happens when a company buys their competition (Apollo/UPS) > >Pascal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: GRANSCOTT@aol.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:26 AM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others > > > In a message dated 4/16/2008 9:18:34 AM Central Daylight Time, johngoodman@earthlink.net writes: > is the high prices and arrogance of the Garmin folks > Anyone else get the feeling that now since garmin has gone from aviation background to the general public in car devices...they really don't need aviation anymore or certainly have an attitude like this? We're sort of their test market and highest profit margin per product area, but lowest market unit area... > > P > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "Bobby J. Hughes" I wonder what the price will be for this Honeywell unit. The one sitting beside the AFS display. Garmin needs competition so I hope this product will be competitively priced. https://commerce.honeywell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay ?storeId=10101&catalogId=10052&langId=-1&cursel=item1&identifier= Apex%20 Edge%20Series Bobby 40116 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:14 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others with the G1000 and G900 I think the Garmin folks are more "we're better than thou" than thinking we are their test bed. Some company reps get that way, figure they don't need anyone when they are selling products based on the name alone. Arrogance is from thinking they dont need us as much as they think we need them.. Sadly I need a 430w to go with my AFS system.. until there is a good replacement I really dont have much of a choice.. happens when a company buys their competition (Apollo/UPS) Pascal ----- Original Message ----- From: GRANSCOTT@aol.com To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:26 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others In a message dated 4/16/2008 9:18:34 AM Central Daylight Time, johngoodman@earthlink.net writes: is the high prices and arrogance of the Garmin folks Anyone else get the feeling that now since garmin has gone from aviation background to the general public in car devices...they really don't need aviation anymore or certainly have an attitude like this? We're sort of their test market and highest profit margin per product area, but lowest market unit area... P ________________________________ It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s .com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:18 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Way to go....NASA From: John Jessen Anyone on the list from NASA that can help with the labeling on this NASA Kid's page...... http://www.ueet.nasa.gov/StudentSite/altitudeindicator.html Do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:30 AM PST US From: "bruce breckenridge" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Way to go....NASA I hate it when they mess up something as simple as a directional gyro. My goodness. I wonder what his attitude indicator looks like? It may take millions of dollars and several committe sessions, but I'm sure they will get it fixed. Bruce On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:03 AM, John Jessen wrote: > > Anyone on the list from NASA that can help with the labeling on this NASA > Kid's page...... > > http://www.ueet.nasa.gov/StudentSite/altitudeindicator.html > > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "Robin Marks" Garmin does have competition in the form of Chelton, OP and others. Plus I absolutely consider the lower priced EFIS units competition to Garmin as I strongly considered them before going with the G900X. I agree that Garmin is A LOT like MS and they both seem to be full of themselves however they both make excellent products that tend to be pretty well sorted out when they hit the market place. A thing that is really difficult to do in the aggressive world of software development which at this point is exactly, they both are... software vendors. While I can find fault with MS, I have also been able to pay for my -10 and the balance of my family's lifestyle almost exclusively using MS software. I can get annoyed with MS but I am also thankful that they are a stable, consistent global company. They may screw you on some product pricing but they don't Bear Stearns screw you. The same goes for Garmin from my point of view. On my G900X purchase I looked at Dynon, GRT, AFS on the low end and Chelton / OP on the high end specifically and I know I would have been very happy with any of these fine devices but I would have still had to get a transponder, dual radios, audio panel etc (OP excluded) ... and when I penciled it out the difference was not that great. In some cases there was no price difference at all. PLEASE cut me some slack here because in this scenario I consider $15K "not that great." Then adding the potential costs to integrate all these different pieces of equipment from different vendors and learning the nuances of each piece of equipment made the purchase price difference (to me) become almost a push. The thought of a single fully integrated stable system did have its appeal to me and was probably the overriding factor in my choice. Add the fact that I many want to move up in aircraft class at some point and that there is a very strong possibility that there will be a G900/1000 driving that ship and all of a sudden Garmin made the most sense for my purchase. Yes we can bitch about Garmin for many reasons. I plan to be one of the loudest complainers starting in the next few months as we give life to this horse tail size gaggle of wires but for now I am fat, dumb & happy as the unit is paid for, delivered and looks exactly how I sketched it out 10 months ago . Robin WARNING, this aircraft is amateur built... ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:01 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "John Cox" ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robin Marks Sent: Wed 4/16/2008 10:04 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others Garmin does have competition in the form of Chelton, OP and others. Plus I absolutely consider the lower priced EFIS units competition to Garmin as I strongly considered them before going with the G900X. I agree that Garmin is A LOT like MS and they both seem to be full of themselves however they both make excellent products that tend to be pretty well sorted out when they hit the market place. A thing that is really difficult to do in the aggressive world of software development which at this point is exactly, they both are... software vendors. While I can find fault with MS, I have also been able to pay for my -10 and the balance of my family's lifestyle almost exclusively using MS software. I can get annoyed with MS but I am also thankful that they are a stable, consistent global company. They may screw you on some product pricing but they don't Bear Stearns screw you. The same goes for Garmin from my point of view. On my G900X purchase I looked at Dynon, GRT, AFS on the low end and Chelton / OP on the high end specifically and I know I would have been very happy with any of these fine devices but I would have still had to get a transponder, dual radios, audio panel etc (OP excluded) ... and when I penciled it out the difference was not that great. In some cases there was no price difference at all. PLEASE cut me some slack here because in this scenario I consider $15K "not that great." Then adding the potential costs to integrate all these different pieces of equipment from different vendors and learning the nuances of each piece of equipment made the purchase price difference (to me) become almost a push. The thought of a single fully integrated stable system did have its appeal to me and was probably the overriding factor in my choice. Add the fact that I many want to move up in aircraft class at some point and that there is a very strong possibility that there will be a G900/1000 driving that ship and all of a sudden Garmin made the most sense for my purchase. Yes we can bitch about Garmin for many reasons. I plan to be one of the loudest complainers starting in the next few months as we give life to this horse tail size gaggle of wires but for now I am fat, dumb & happy as the unit is paid for, delivered and looks exactly how I sketched it out 10 months ago . Robin WARNING, this aircraft is amateur built... ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "John Cox" Robin, your killing us here. "Warning, this aircraft panel was built by" one of the finest avionics shops in the country. You have what many of us can just dream about. As configured, what did it run (in US dollars) to get to this level of coverage. My question is still out there (Remotely mounted avionics). Stein gave me a price for my creation and I could by a 1970 Cessna or Piper for that chunk. The market needs a challenger to Garmin on the ability to remotely locate and control "current technology" avionics. Each of the competitors you mention love to have panel mounted bricks like the ole Motorola, first generation cellphone, that extend 11 inches towards the firewall and then add real weight forward of the CG point. Do you have any pictures of your remotely mounted dual GPS/Nav/Comm/ILS units? I would love it if AFS/Chelton/Grand Rapids/Dynon/OP/L3/Avidyne and all of Jesse's forgottens would control the remote Garmin stacks - off the high value real estate like your picture shows. Technically advanced certified aircraft are all the same layout and supplier - Garmin 1000. We need some choices here. It is like the days of being a logger in the Pacific NW circa 1850 or a pipeline worker in Alaska 1970. Ecks, does anyone shave their legs up here - oh there are few of them. The price Please.... John C. ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robin Marks Sent: Wed 4/16/2008 10:04 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others Garmin does have competition in the form of Chelton, OP and others. Plus I absolutely consider the lower priced EFIS units competition to Garmin as I strongly considered them before going with the G900X. I agree that Garmin is A LOT like MS and they both seem to be full of themselves however they both make excellent products that tend to be pretty well sorted out when they hit the market place. A thing that is really difficult to do in the aggressive world of software development which at this point is exactly, they both are... software vendors. While I can find fault with MS, I have also been able to pay for my -10 and the balance of my family's lifestyle almost exclusively using MS software. I can get annoyed with MS but I am also thankful that they are a stable, consistent global company. They may screw you on some product pricing but they don't Bear Stearns screw you. The same goes for Garmin from my point of view. On my G900X purchase I looked at Dynon, GRT, AFS on the low end and Chelton / OP on the high end specifically and I know I would have been very happy with any of these fine devices but I would have still had to get a transponder, dual radios, audio panel etc (OP excluded) ... and when I penciled it out the difference was not that great. In some cases there was no price difference at all. PLEASE cut me some slack here because in this scenario I consider $15K "not that great." Then adding the potential costs to integrate all these different pieces of equipment from different vendors and learning the nuances of each piece of equipment made the purchase price difference (to me) become almost a push. The thought of a single fully integrated stable system did have its appeal to me and was probably the overriding factor in my choice. Add the fact that I many want to move up in aircraft class at some point and that there is a very strong possibility that there will be a G900/1000 driving that ship and all of a sudden Garmin made the most sense for my purchase. Yes we can bitch about Garmin for many reasons. I plan to be one of the loudest complainers starting in the next few months as we give life to this horse tail size gaggle of wires but for now I am fat, dumb & happy as the unit is paid for, delivered and looks exactly how I sketched it out 10 months ago . Robin WARNING, this aircraft is amateur built... ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:33 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others I think Garmin is more reminiscent King in the 70s when Gar Min germinated. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others with the G1000 and G900 I think the Garmin folks are more "we're better than thou" than thinking we are their test bed. Some company reps get that way, figure they don't need anyone when they are selling products based on the name alone. Arrogance is from thinking they dont need us as much as they think we need them.. Sadly I need a 430w to go with my AFS system.. until there is a good replacement I really dont have much of a choice.. happens when a company buys their competition (Apollo/UPS) Pascal ----- Original Message ----- From: GRANSCOTT@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:26 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others In a message dated 4/16/2008 9:18:34 AM Central Daylight Time, johngoodman@earthlink.net writes: is the high prices and arrogance of the Garmin folks Anyone else get the feeling that now since garmin has gone from aviation background to the general public in car devices...they really don't need aviation anymore or certainly have an attitude like this? We're sort of their test market and highest profit margin per product area, but lowest market unit area... P _____ It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:52 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "N777TY" It'll list for around 17,000 That GPS/Nav/Com will list for about 14,000 bhughes(at)qnsi.net wrote: > I wonder what the price will be for this Honeywell unit. The one sitting beside the AFS display. Garmin needs competition so I hope this product will be competitively priced. > > https://commerce.honeywell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10101&catalogId=10052&langId=-1&cursel=item1&identifier=Apex%20Edge%20Series (https://commerce.honeywell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10101&catalogId=10052&langId=-1&cursel=item1&identifier=Apex%20Edge%20Series) > > Bobby > 40116 > -------- RV-7A N777TY Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177278#177278 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:46 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RV10-List: door seals Just a heads up. My original door seals were light gray. Because one did not stick properly I ordered a new seal; had to purchase the 25 feet. OK. The new seals are light brown. Surprise. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:33 PM PST US From: "Kelly McMullen" Subject: Re: RV10-List: door seals >From Vans or ? I thought some were using seals from aircraftdoorseals.com On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:32 PM, David McNeill wrote: > Just a heads up. My original door seals were light gray. Because one did > not stick properly I ordered a new seal; had to purchase the 25 feet. OK. > The new seals are light brown. Surprise. > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:00 PM PST US From: "Kelly McMullen" Subject: RV10-List: door seals >From Vans or ? I thought some were using seals from aircraftdoorseals.com On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:32 PM, David McNeill wrote: > Just a heads up. My original door seals were light gray. Because one did > not stick properly I ordered a new seal; had to purchase the 25 feet. OK. > The new seals are light brown. Surprise. > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:34 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: door seals vans _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:00 PM Subject: RV10-List: door seals >From Vans or ? I thought some were using seals from aircraftdoorseals.com On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:32 PM, David McNeill wrote: Just a heads up. My original door seals were light gray. Because one did not stick properly I ordered a new seal; had to purchase the 25 feet. OK. The new seals are light brown. Surprise. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:49 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others John Cox wrote: > Robin, your killing us here. > > "Warning, this aircraft panel was built by" one of the finest avionics > shops in the country. You have what many of us can just dream about. > As configured, what did it run (in US dollars) to get to this level of > coverage. > > My question is still out there (Remotely mounted avionics). Stein > gave me a price for my creation and I could by a 1970 Cessna or Piper > for that chunk. The market needs a challenger to Garmin on the ability > to remotely locate and control "current technology" avionics. Each of > the competitors you mention love to have panel mounted bricks like the > ole Motorola, first generation cellphone, that extend 11 inches > towards the firewall and then add real weight forward of the CG point. Check out http://www.mglavionics.com/html/odyssey.html. Down in the lower left are the radio and pressure altitude, adjusted by the knobs to the right. Remotely mounted 'black box' radio. Linn do not archive > > Do you have any pictures of your remotely mounted dual > GPS/Nav/Comm/ILS units? I would love it if AFS/Chelton/Grand > Rapids/Dynon/OP/L3/Avidyne and all of Jesse's forgottens would control > the remote Garmin stacks - off the high value real estate like your > picture shows. Technically advanced certified aircraft are all the > same layout and supplier - Garmin 1000. We need some choices here. > It is like the days of being a logger in the Pacific NW circa 1850 or > a pipeline worker in Alaska 1970. Ecks, does anyone shave their legs > up here - oh there are few of them. > > The price Please.... > > John C. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robin Marks > Sent: Wed 4/16/2008 10:04 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others > > Garmin does have competition in the form of Chelton, OP and others. > Plus I absolutely consider the lower priced EFIS units competition to > Garmin as I strongly considered them before going with the G900X. I > agree that Garmin is A LOT like MS and they both seem to be full of > themselves however they both make excellent products that tend to be > pretty well sorted out when they hit the market place. A thing that is > really difficult to do in the aggressive world of software development > which at this point is exactly, they both are... software vendors. > While I can find fault with MS, I have also been able to pay for my > -10 and the balance of my family's lifestyle almost exclusively using > MS software. I can get annoyed with MS but I am also thankful that > they are a stable, consistent global company. They may screw you on > some product pricing but they don't Bear Stearns screw you. The same > goes for Garmin from my point of view. On my G900X purchase I looked > at Dynon, GRT, AFS on the low end and Chelton / OP on the high end > specifically and I know I would have been very happy with any of these > fine devices but I would have still had to get a transponder, dual > radios, audio panel etc (OP excluded) ... and when I penciled it out > the difference was not that great. In some cases there was no price > difference at all. PLEASE cut me some slack here because in this > scenario I consider $15K "not that great." Then adding the potential > costs to integrate all these different pieces of equipment from > different vendors and learning the nuances of each piece of equipment > made the purchase price difference (to me) become almost a push. The > thought of a single fully integrated stable system did have its appeal > to me and was probably the overriding factor in my choice. Add the > fact that I many want to move up in aircraft class at some point and > that there is a very strong possibility that there will be a G900/1000 > driving that ship and all of a sudden Garmin made the most sense for > my purchase. > > Yes we can bitch about Garmin for many reasons. I plan to be one of > the loudest complainers starting in the next few months as we give > life to this horse tail size gaggle of wires but for now I am fat, > dumb & happy as the unit is paid for, delivered and looks exactly how > I sketched it out 10 months ago . > > > > Robin > > > > WARNING, this aircraft is amateur built... > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:21 PM PST US From: Dave Lammers Subject: Re: RV10-List: door seals David, Other than color are there other characteristics that are different? Dimensions, including thickness? Stiffness? Etc? Thanks, Dave Lammers Finishing--about to fasten door seals David McNeill wrote: > Just a heads up. My original door seals were light gray. Because one > did not stick properly I ordered a new seal; had to purchase the 25 > feet. OK. The new seals are light brown. Surprise. > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:38 PM PST US From: "DejaVu" Subject: RV10-List: Re: Way to go....NASA Incidentally..... "A German teenager has corrected Nasa's estimates of the likelihood that th e Earth will be hit by a large asteroid in 2036. The Apophis asteroid will make a close flyby on 13 April 2029, and NASA had previously predicted that the chances of it hitting the planet on its return in 2036 were 45,000 to 1. But 13 year-old Nico Marquardt from Potsdam used open source software to find that the probability actually rises to 450 to 1 because it may hit a manmade satellite." Details here: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/vdunet/20080416/ttc-schoolboy-correc ts-nasa-on-asteroid-6315470.html Subject: Way to go....NASA From: John Jessen (n212pj@gmail.com) Date: Wed Apr 16 - 9:06 AM Anyone on the list from NASA that can help with the labeling on this NASA Kid's page...... http://www.ueet.nasa.gov/StudentSite/altitudeindicator.html Do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:18 PM PST US From: "Richard Sipp" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others Robin: Fantastic panel. I am wondering how you and the others using extended depth panels are planning on handling the stick interference issue? My panel is less than an inch deeper than stock and getting the Infinity stick grips to clear took shortening upper portion of the stick as much as possible and still mount the grip. Thanks Dick Sipp RV10 N110DV close ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:01 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: door seals does not appear too be; be advised that this time we are using the same 3M super silicone sealant clear that is mentioned in the plans. Used a GE product first time, a silicon sealant rated 10 on the 10 scale bonding the seal to glass and one worked and the other did not. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Lammers Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:39 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: door seals David, Other than color are there other characteristics that are different? Dimensions, including thickness? Stiffness? Etc? Thanks, Dave Lammers Finishing--about to fasten door seals David McNeill wrote: Just a heads up. My original door seals were light gray. Because one did not stick properly I ordered a new seal; had to purchase the 25 feet. OK. The new seals are light brown. Surprise. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... (G900X panel cost / Stick Clearance) From: "Robin Marks" John, It has been some time since I sent my deposit in to Stark Avionics and then my follow up payments and then the "Oh I got to get those too" payments shortly followed by the "Might as well add those" payments. Off the top of my head I can give you round numbers only as I am on the road for an extended business trip. Again ROUGH numbers. G900X List ~$66K, I paid ~$57,000 WX/XM ~ $5,500. Probes $2,000 Remote CO $500 Dynon 100 $2,500 (plus heated AOA Pitot) DVD $400 Switches, Knobs, Fuses $2,000 Wire Connectors $1,000 I don't feel well now $0.00 Labor $5,000 The above comes to $76,000. I am sure there is another $4,000 in there minimum so call it $80,000. YES I can swap out my mint condition RV-6A for this panel and have enough fuel money left over to fly the -10 about 200 hours. Again please forgive me for rounding but this sounds about right to a little low. Stein has a starting price on his site for G900X panels. Please also understand that this is a dream panel for me too. I didn't take this purchase lightly and I don't want to make it sound like oh well $80K, $90K, $100K. What ever! When I priced out a Chelton or OP the number was not that much lower assuming a 3rd party panel builder. From my discussions with Jessie it seems like upper $30's was about the bare minimum for a competent IFR panel (Dynon TT etc...). Start talking dual 430's or larger and the numbers climb quickly. I am clearly fortunate to be able to purchase this panel however I absolutely love the offerings from GRT, Dynon, AFS. I am thinking of an RV-8A after the -10 and if that decision were today I would probably install the GRT HX. No slight intended to Chelton/OP as I put them in different class from the three mentioned earlier. Richard/Dick, The stick clearance short answer I should know in 2 weeks. We have yet to dry fit the panel in the fuse. We are still working on wiring. This panel is 1" taller than factory but the lower fuse/switch is set back about 0.75". We still have to carve out the support posts then deal with stick clearance. Robin Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:10 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "William Curtis" >My question is still out there (Remotely mounted avionics) Why the fascination with remote mounted avionics? The Garmin G-900 allows installation with the Line Replaceable Units (LRUs) mounted remotely or directly in front of the screens. While remote mounted avionics may be a plus, even mandatory in large aircraft, that requirement is significantly reduced in small aircraft such as the RV-10. Here is a picture of a G-900 in an RV-7 by a Garmin engineer. http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/pictures/images/G900XRV2.jpg Here is a picture of the forward side of the panel with the LRUs installed with the screens. http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/pictures/images/G900XRV1.jpg This is a picture of the G-900 with only the screens installed on the panel. The LRUs are installed in a remote location ala new Cessna 182-206. http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/pictures/images/G900XRV3.jpg William RV10-List@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... (G900X panel cost / Stick Clearance) From: "John Cox" $87 was mine for the full meal deal, five course serving plus dessert. You have one fine panel but I can see from some posts that there will always be those who continue to lust after steam gauges and 20pound vacuum driven horizontals gyros too. It is easy to see where the design, ergonomics, weight and balance considerations and wiring schemes are moving. On the Lancair site today there was a posting of new equipment requirements and pilot requirements that trigger a 10% savings for true Technically Advanced IFR Experimental equipped aircraft. Knowing those components, choosing wisely, building safely and maintaining currency of flight is going to have a positive impact and those are good things. Thanks for the pictures and the numbers. If only the best of the suppliers will jump into competitive pricing based on volume. John C ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robin Marks Sent: Wed 4/16/2008 8:46 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... (G900X panel cost / Stick Clearance) John, It has been some time since I sent my deposit in to Stark Avionics and then my follow up payments and then the "Oh I got to get those too" payments shortly followed by the "Might as well add those" payments. Off the top of my head I can give you round numbers only as I am on the road for an extended business trip. Again ROUGH numbers. G900X List ~$66K, I paid ~$57,000 WX/XM ~ $5,500. Probes $2,000 Remote CO $500 Dynon 100 $2,500 (plus heated AOA Pitot) DVD $400 Switches, Knobs, Fuses $2,000 Wire Connectors $1,000 I don't feel well now $0.00 Labor $5,000 The above comes to $76,000. I am sure there is another $4,000 in there minimum so call it $80,000. YES I can swap out my mint condition RV-6A for this panel and have enough fuel money left over to fly the -10 about 200 hours. Again please forgive me for rounding but this sounds about right to a little low. Stein has a starting price on his site for G900X panels. Please also understand that this is a dream panel for me too. I didn't take this purchase lightly and I don't want to make it sound like oh well $80K, $90K, $100K. What ever! When I priced out a Chelton or OP the number was not that much lower assuming a 3rd party panel builder. From my discussions with Jessie it seems like upper $30's was about the bare minimum for a competent IFR panel (Dynon TT etc...). Start talking dual 430's or larger and the numbers climb quickly. I am clearly fortunate to be able to purchase this panel however I absolutely love the offerings from GRT, Dynon, AFS. I am thinking of an RV-8A after the -10 and if that decision were today I would probably install the GRT HX. No slight intended to Chelton/OP as I put them in different class from the three mentioned earlier. Richard/Dick, The stick clearance short answer I should know in 2 weeks. We have yet to dry fit the panel in the fuse. We are still working on wiring. This panel is 1" taller than factory but the lower fuse/switch is set back about 0.75". We still have to carve out the support posts then deal with stick clearance. Robin Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:18 PM PST US From: "Chris and Susie McGough" Subject: RV10-List: Torque wing bolts Could someone look up the torque for me for those nas bolts that hold the wings on? Cant find my red book regards Chris ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:13 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "John Cox" Thanks for the review. I captured all of these back in the Garmin tent at OSH '06. It was a proof of concept done in Salem at their Black Ops site where they developed the G1000 options, G600 and G900X. Remotely mounted avionics stacks reduce panel heat, provide tremendous flexibility in W&B issues, improves performance, enhances pilot ergonomics and functional flow during "hard IFR" (a phrase I do not like). Remotely mounted makes panel installation a breeze. It only took some time inside a shiny new KingAir C90, a new Mooney, a Cessna 182XP and the DJet prototype to see clearly where panel design has moved since Jim introduced "ArchAngel" in a Lancair IV, N425HP (Jesse' you tracking this hangar queen?) back in 1983. Dynon pryed open the low end of the Experimental market, Sierra moved the bar to SV, AFS brought us the best in engine monitoring and now the playing field is infilling the holes. The only missed point is that volume should begin to push down the piety of Garmin. If only Apollo(UPS Aviation) in Salem would jump back into this game. Aspen is even breathing life into the concept of Dynon style EFIS screens for retrofit steam gauge guys. And let's all thank Mark and his Vertical Power developments. Let's not forget our own Bill DeRouchey and the great job he has done with his panel. Jim Hergert's N6XE set the standard with his three screen Chelton Sierras and it is so beautiful that Garmin uses his plane in their literature to sell the G900 (He doesn't even own them). His only Garmins are not EFIS they are the Old Panel mounted Rack Avionics of the 1950's. Oh how I love nostalgia. One formula has remained timeless. The percent of final cost in the airframe, the percent in the FWF, the percent in the total Avionics, Abby would love you to factor a percentage for a professional interior - too. As Stein puts it so well, three things lead to higher resale value. Avionics properly laidout, well wired and functional is a big one. Now that RV7 with dual G900's that sets the needle to full deflection. WOW he took that to heart. Oh yeh, if we could only pay what he did. That is where "Supply & Demand" needs to sign in. The one factor missing from Robin's post was the Garmin mandated factory installation cost. Tim got it right - he did it all and shared each step. Randy got Lancair to do his. The rest of us say our prayers each night that pricing will get downright competitive like Dell Computers. John C. ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of William Curtis Sent: Wed 4/16/2008 9:10 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others >My question is still out there (Remotely mounted avionics) Why the fascination with remote mounted avionics? The Garmin G-900 allows installation with the Line Replaceable Units (LRUs) mounted remotely or directly in front of the screens. While remote mounted avionics may be a plus, even mandatory in large aircraft, that requirement is significantly reduced in small aircraft such as the RV-10. Here is a picture of a G-900 in an RV-7 by a Garmin engineer. http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/pictures/images/G900XRV2.jpg Here is a picture of the forward side of the panel with the LRUs installed with the screens. http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/pictures/images/G900XRV1.jpg This is a picture of the G-900 with only the screens installed on the panel. The LRUs are installed in a remote location ala new Cessna 182-206. http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/pictures/images/G900XRV3.jpg William RV10-List@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:36 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: AFS Systems .... and others From: "Robin Marks" John, My number includes the visit from a Garmin certified / approved G900X dealer to review and hopefully help calibrate the install. The down side is a required 30 day notice. Robin Do Not Archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.