Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:38 AM - Re: Wiring NL starter help (rv10builder)
2. 06:46 AM - Re: RV-10 for sale! My loss your gain! (Scott Keadle)
3. 08:10 AM - WIng Question (Bob Leffler)
4. 11:02 AM - Re: WIng Question (Jesse Saint)
5. 12:13 PM - Re: WIng Question (Pascal)
6. 12:26 PM - Re: Temporary door seal install (John Testement)
7. 01:09 PM - Pictures of the door pins after fabricating longer pins. (David McNeill)
8. 02:52 PM - Re: Recommendations for front air vents (Rick Sked)
9. 06:29 PM - Re: Recommendations for front air vents (Thane States)
10. 07:10 PM - Re: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects (Rick Sked)
11. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: RV-10 for sale! My loss your gain! (Rick Sked)
12. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: oil cooler (Rick Sked)
13. 07:35 PM - Re: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects (Rick Sked)
14. 08:09 PM - Re: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects (Les Kearney)
15. 08:21 PM - Re: Re: PIREP: Electric Rudder Trim - Do I really need it? (Scott Schmidt)
16. 09:12 PM - Re: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects (Rick Sked)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring NL starter help |
And I should have probably added the statement: Prior to flying Sunday
I'll be pulling the cowl and disconnecting the "I" lead and
re-installing the jumper. The reason I haven't had a problem is that
12V is still being supplied to the 12/24V stud via the "I" lead rather
than the jumper. I may be wrong but my guess is that Van's diagram for
the LS provided a safeguard against a stuck starter relay in that the
starter also must see 12V via the S/I leads coming from the starter
switch. Obviously this is problem for the NL as a stuck relay would put
the starter in 24V mode and likely result in damage.
Brian Sutherland
Nashville, TN
N104BS
13.5 hours in Phase 1
rv10builder wrote:
>
> I too have the 149-NL starter (that came with my TMX-540) and it is
> wired per Van's Lightweight Starter Circuit with the "I" terminal
> connected to the smaller stud (jumper removed). It's working just
> fine...
>
> Brian Sutherland
> Nashville, TN
> N104BS
> 13.5 hours in Phase 1
>
> Chris and Susie McGough wrote:
>> <VHMUM@bigpond.com>
>>
>> Guys I am now stuck. I have the NL starter and also wired the plane
>> as per Vans wiring kit which I now know is wrong for this starter. I
>> contacted Vans and they are not interested in helping as not the
>> starter they supply.
>>
>> Can somone have a look at the skytec diagram and give me an idea what
>> wires to change. Ofcourse if you have not used Vans diagram you will
>> not know the difference.
>>
>> Vans starter relay has 4 terminals and Skytec diagram has 3. Also
>> Skytec has 1 wire going to the starter not 2.
>> http://www.skytecair.com/images/NL%2012V%20Installation%20Wiring_1100.jpg
>>
>>
>> Luckily John Jessen pointed this out
>>
>> regards Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>
>
> .
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 for sale! My loss your gain! |
I'm a little new around here, but I think I missed a joke or something...
2eyedocs wrote:
> Bad email! [Exclamation]
--------
Scott Keadle
14A, Lake Norman Airpark
N426AK RV-10, final assembly
N246SK, Giles 202, flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177974#177974
Message 3
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I've just finished match drilling the wing skins and am getting ready to
start deburring, dimpling, and priming.
I'm curious as to how others handled match drilling, deburring, and dimpling
the bottom side of the wing ribs and rear spar.
While it's easier to do now before riveting the top skin the wing ribs, I
suspect it's probably better to wait until the bottom skins are attached for
a more perfect fit. My thoughts are that I will probably have to touch up
the priming after final match drilling and dimpling.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: WIng Question |
Since you bring this up, I will mention that it is much easier to do
all of the deburring, dimpling and priming before anything on the wing
is riveted. My recommended order is to cleco and drill everything,
then mark parts very well and disassemble, debur, dimple and prime all
parts, then install the wing ribs to the spar, then the rear spar,
then the outboard leading edge (so you can squeeze the rivets onto the
spar flange), then the top skins, then the fuel tank, then the bottom
skins, then the aileron controls. YMMV, but this works really well in
my experience and avoids the problems you mention here.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Apr 20, 2008, at 11:04 AM, Bob Leffler wrote:
> I=92ve just finished match drilling the wing skins and am getting
> ready to start deburring, dimpling, and priming.
>
> I=92m curious as to how others handled match drilling, deburring, and
> dimpling the bottom side of the wing ribs and rear spar.
>
> While it=92s easier to do now before riveting the top skin the wing
> ribs, I suspect it=92s probably better to wait until the bottom skins
> are attached for a more perfect fit. My thoughts are that I will
> probably have to touch up the priming after final match drilling and
> dimpling.
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: WIng Question |
I primed everything as I went, aka, all the ribs are primed than I
followed through the steps Van's has in each section except I did NOT
rivet the bottom skins on..
So I did match drill and dimple all holes and the bottom is ready to be
riveted, I moved on to the next section and will rivet the bottom later.
As far the primer being removed, after I deburred each hole using a
brush did touchup on the bottom ribs, the bottom skins were primed after
all dimpling and deburring.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Leffler
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:04 AM
Subject: RV10-List: WIng Question
I've just finished match drilling the wing skins and am getting ready
to start deburring, dimpling, and priming.
I'm curious as to how others handled match drilling, deburring, and
dimpling the bottom side of the wing ribs and rear spar.
While it's easier to do now before riveting the top skin the wing
ribs, I suspect it's probably better to wait until the bottom skins are
attached for a more perfect fit. My thoughts are that I will probably
have to touch up the priming after final match drilling and dimpling.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Temporary door seal install |
I used 3M Weatherstrip Adhesive to temporarily glue the seals then used the
Brown Aircraft Supply contact cement for the final. This worked with their
seal - I have now tried this with Vans original seal.
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
Painting
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sheldon Olesen
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 10:44 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Temporary door seal install
Does anyone know a method of temporarily installing the door seal?
I've tried carpet tape and it won't stick to the seal material. I wanted to
final fit the doors with the seal in place so there wouldn't be any
surprises after painting.
Sheldon Olesen
40080
Checked by AVG.
5:24 PM
Checked by AVG.
11:31 AM
Message 7
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| Subject: | Pictures of the door pins after fabricating longer pins. |
To ensure a complete circumference of the pin in the door jamb we lengthened
the pins about .25-.40 inch and shortened the bevel length . That is we made
the angle steeper.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendations for front air vents |
Thane,
I am doing the same thing but what did you use to attach the vents to the inlet?
I haven't installed them permanently yet but I was going to just use a 2" pipe
clamp.
Rick Sked
40185
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thane States" <thane2@comporium.net>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 6:38:48 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents
Here are a few pics of my eyeball vent install as promised. Hope these are
OK.
Thane
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thane States" <thane2@comporium.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents
>
> Sorry the wife has camera. I will post some pics tomorrow.
> Thane
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "linn Walters" <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents
>
>
>>
>> Thane States wrote:
>>
>>
>> snip
>>
>>> Let me know if you have questions. I also have a pic of the end
>>> product, looks real clean, is easy to remove, and eliminates the ugly
>>> white flange, and requires no hardware or glue.
>>
>> So, where's the picture??? Holding out for cash offers??? :-)
>> Linn
>>
>>>
>>> Thane
>>> 803-396-8865
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendations for front air vents |
Rick, the coupling I used had the hose clamps already on each end, so I just
used them. It holds very tight and you can barely see the clamp once it is
installed.
Good luck, I am very pleased with the final look and function.
Thane
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Sked" <ricksked@embarqmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents
>
> Thane,
>
> I am doing the same thing but what did you use to attach the vents to the
> inlet? I haven't installed them permanently yet but I was going to just
> use a 2" pipe clamp.
>
> Rick Sked
> 40185
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thane States" <thane2@comporium.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 6:38:48 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents
>
> Here are a few pics of my eyeball vent install as promised. Hope these
> are
> OK.
> Thane
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thane States" <thane2@comporium.net>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:18 PM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents
>
>
>>
>> Sorry the wife has camera. I will post some pics tomorrow.
>> Thane
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "linn Walters" <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Recommendations for front air vents
>>
>>
>>> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>> Thane States wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> snip
>>>
>>>> Let me know if you have questions. I also have a pic of the end
>>>> product, looks real clean, is easy to remove, and eliminates the ugly
>>>> white flange, and requires no hardware or glue.
>>>
>>> So, where's the picture??? Holding out for cash offers??? :-)
>>> Linn
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thane
>>>> 803-396-8865
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects |
Don't forget me!!!! I did it too!!!! and before the tunnel was built....VER
Y easy to do then. But then I worked on aircraft that were designed by very
bright people that NEVER had to work on them after they designed them.
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 9:49:47 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
Besides the quality build and great archival photos, Scott Schmidt was one
of the first to consider removal for serving of fuel parts - using a side a
ccess panel.=C2- His solution was simple and a quick look at Deems site s
hows a similar build which values servicing ease=C2-considerations.
The eyes of a manufacturer are often from a different perspective than the
maintenance technician who follows into perpetuity after the DAR signoff.
=C2- The later often using the name of the first (frequently and with col
or)for failing to take into consideration maintenance access during the bui
ld.=C2- When it is yourself, it often follows with a whap to the forehead
and something that sounds like "I could have had a V-8". (vegetable juice
that is)
The easiest and most glaring item seen in tech inspections is the large num
ber of builders who do not double back safety wire and learn the consequenc
e on penetration of their fingers or arms to service something - down the r
oad.=C2- Boeing has been an example of design which values service in the
field.
John C
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of LES KEARNEY
Sent: Sat 4/19/2008 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
Hi Dave
My setup is a bit different. I am installing an Eggenfellner E6Ti (3.6l) en
gine. My fuel pumps and filters are a different from the stock vans equipme
nt.
Looking at the tunnel, they will be a pain to service. I am not as flexible
as I once was....
Cheers
Les
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Saylor <Dave@aircraftersllc.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
> Les,
> =C2-
> It's really not that bad a job.=C2- The hardest part is
> getting the tunnel
> cover off.=C2- You might consider leaving a few of the screws
> out towards the
> front.=C2- That and an electric screwdriver will have the
> filter serviced in a
> few minutes.=C2- The stock design is simple and light.
> =C2-
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA
> 831-722-9141
> 831-750-0284 CL
> www.AirCraftersLLC.com
>
> =C2- _____=C2-
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 7:20 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> =C2-
>
> As I look at the tunnel in my -10, I am contemplating how I will
> be able to
> *easily* access the fuel pumps / filters that after the panel is
> installed.Keeping in mind John Cox's admonition to think about
> maintenance access when
> building, I have wondered about the use of quick disconnects on
> the fuel
> lines so the fuel pumps / filters can be easily removed /
> installed. I can't
> image how I would be able to connect these things in the future.
>
> =C2-
>
> I see that A/C Spruce sells experimental quick disconnects and
> that there
> are several racing sites that have what appear to be even higher
> qualityunits.
>
> =C2-
>
> Has anyone used these in their a/c? Are there any reasons why
> they should
> not be used?
>
> =C2-
>
> Inquiring minds need to know
>
> =C2-
>
> Les Kearney
>
> #40643
>
> C-GCWZ (reserved)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV10-List ==========
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ===
=======
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con
====
=======================
==
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 for sale! My loss your gain! |
I think he mean't you email address was not right.....At least that's what I think
he mean't...nothing wrong with having to sell your kit, except the heartbreak.
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Keadle" <Scott@Keadle.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:42:00 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV-10 for sale! My loss your gain!
I'm a little new around here, but I think I missed a joke or something...
2eyedocs wrote:
> Bad email! [Exclamation]
--------
Scott Keadle
14A, Lake Norman Airpark
N426AK RV-10, final assembly
N246SK, Giles 202, flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177974#177974
Message 12
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Mike,
Where are you in Nevada? And why haven't we met yet?
Rick Sked
40185
Las Vegas
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "AirMike" <Mikeabel@Pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 4:37:57 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Re: oil cooler
Alex sells a cooler that he claims has 20% more capacity. I bought it.
I live in NV and it is pretty hot in the summer
--------
OSH '08 or Bust
Q/B Kit - Ready to exit cabin top/door purgatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177907#177907
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects |
Honestly, stay away from QD's. You want a good mechanical, nut to fitting c
onnection. =C2-Make an access panel on one side of the tunnel large enoug
h to ummm..."easily" get to your filter and pump. I have the Accuracy conso
le and panel...nothing is easy to access after it's installed but my filter
and pump are. I made a 12" by I think 8" access panel on the left side of
the tunnel....so did Deem's and Scott Schmidt. My AN wrenches make it prett
y easy to undo the nuts and remove the filter. This really should be a must
do mod. Makes it very simple to access the stuff in the tunnel...even if y
ou don't have the console setup.
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney@shaw.ca>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 7:20:28 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
Hi
As I look at the tunnel in my -10, I am contemplating how I will be able to
* easily * access the fuel pumps / filters that after the panel is install
ed. Keeping in mind John Cox=99s admonition to think about maintenanc
e access when building, I have wondered about the use of quick disconnects
on the fuel lines so the fuel pumps / filters can be easily removed / insta
lled. I can=99t image how I would be able to connect these things in
the future.
I see that A/C Spruce sells experimental quick disconnects and that there a
re several racing sites that have what appear to be even higher quality uni
ts.
Has anyone used these in their a/c? Are there any reasons why they should n
ot be used?
Inquiring minds need to know
Les Kearney
#40643
================
====
=======================
==
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fuel Line Quick Disconnects |
Rick
Why the aversion to quick disconnects?
Cheers
Les
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: April-20-08 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
Honestly, stay away from QD's. You want a good mechanical, nut to fitting
connection. Make an access panel on one side of the tunnel large enough to
ummm..."easily" get to your filter and pump. I have the Accuracy console and
panel...nothing is easy to access after it's installed but my filter and
pump are. I made a 12" by I think 8" access panel on the left side of the
tunnel....so did Deem's and Scott Schmidt. My AN wrenches make it pretty
easy to undo the nuts and remove the filter. This really should be a must do
mod. Makes it very simple to access the stuff in the tunnel...even if you
don't have the console setup.
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney@shaw.ca>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 7:20:28 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
Hi
As I look at the tunnel in my -10, I am contemplating how I will be able to
*easily* access the fuel pumps / filters that after the panel is installed.
Keeping in mind John Cox's admonition to think about maintenance access when
building, I have wondered about the use of quick disconnects on the fuel
lines so the fuel pumps / filters can be easily removed / installed. I can't
image how I would be able to connect these things in the future.
I see that A/C Spruce sells experimental quick disconnects and that there
are several racing sites that have what appear to be even higher quality
units.
Has anyone used these in their a/c? Are there any reasons why they should
not be used?
Inquiring minds need to know
Les Kearney
#40643
C-GCWZ (reserved)
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: PIREP: Electric Rudder Trim - Do I really need it? |
Here is a shot of the two rudder trim pieces that can be bought at Avery Tools.
The bottom one is a little harder to see because the paint matches.
I will now send out the top one to be painted.
I attach them with silicon rubber.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: AirMike <Mikeabel@Pacbell.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 12:26:43 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: PIREP: Electric Rudder Trim - Do I really need it?
Scott - very nice - I like your KISS approach. Is there any way you could post
a picture of placement. Also where did you get the tabs or how did you fabricate
and locate them?
--------
OSH '08 or Bust
Q/B Kit - Ready to exit cabin top/door purgatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177943#177943
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects |
Les,
My main reason is how often do you need to "quickly" disconnect a normally
permanent setup. QD's are great for pulling the snow plow off and installin
g the forklift assembly on your tractor but why compromise a critical syste
m such as a fuel supply line. Sure race vehicles use them for ease of R & R
ing parts between runs or in the middle of a race but you should not have t
o pull your fuel filter except for scheduled maint. 50, 100 hour or the ann
ual inspection. You will have plenty of time to remove it. The standard AN
nut has only one moving part, the nut. Your QD fittings have springs, retai
ning rings and collars. All of these are points for failure. The flared fit
ting has a much better ability to seal over time than the QD fitting, FWIW,
I have had two air QD's fail over the past few years, nothing major...just
a slow leak,,,,but in a fuel supply system...pretty major. Just my two Pen
ny's worth....The more moving parts, the greater chance for failure. I thin
k 7 or 8 turns on a standard AN nut is plenty quick for me. I have never se
en a quick disconnect on any aircraft fitting except for O2 filling valves,
nitrogen pressure systems for EPU's=C2-and fuel truck hookups.....everyt
hing else was just plain ol' AN fittings...now don't get me started on banj
o fittings...way to many nights getting them to seal and in the long run...
we always changed the banjo fitting....it had moving parts.=C2- :)
Rick Sked
40185
----- Original Message -----
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney@shaw.ca>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:02:38 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
Rick
Why the aversion to quick disconnects?
Cheers
Les
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: April-20-08 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
Honestly, stay away from QD's. You want a good mechanical, nut to fitting c
onnection. =C2-Make an access panel on one side of the tunnel large enoug
h to ummm..."easily" get to your filter and pump. I have the Accuracy conso
le and panel...nothing is easy to access after it's installed but my filter
and pump are. I made a 12" by I think 8" access panel on the left side of
the tunnel....so did Deem's and Scott Schmidt. My AN wrenches make it prett
y easy to undo the nuts and remove the filter. This really should be a must
do mod. Makes it very simple to access the stuff in the tunnel...even if y
ou don't have the console setup.
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney@shaw.ca>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 7:20:28 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Line Quick Disconnects
Hi
As I look at the tunnel in my -10, I am contemplating how I will be able to
* easily * access the fuel pumps / filters that after the panel is install
ed. Keeping in mind John Cox=99s admonition to think about maintenanc
e access when building, I have wondered about the use of quick disconnects
on the fuel lines so the fuel pumps / filters can be easily removed / insta
lled. I can=99t image how I would be able to connect these things in
the future.
I see that A/C Spruce sells experimental quick disconnects and that there a
re several racing sites that have what appear to be even higher quality uni
ts.
Has anyone used these in their a/c? Are there any reasons why they should n
ot be used?
Inquiring minds need to know
Les Kearney
#40643
C-GCWZ (reserved) =C2- =C2- get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV10-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution =C2- =C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2-
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