Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:09 AM - Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias (jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com)
2. 06:00 AM - Re: Is it a Columbia 400/Cessna 400 or a RV10??? (Doerr, Ray R [NTK])
3. 06:14 AM - Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias (linn Walters)
4. 06:38 AM - Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias (David McNeill)
5. 07:12 AM - Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias (MauleDriver)
6. 07:22 AM - Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias (Kent Ogden)
7. 07:47 AM - Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias (Deems Davis)
8. 08:11 AM - rudder trim (David McNeill)
9. 08:58 AM - Brake line question (johngoodman)
10. 10:40 AM - Re: Brake line question (Ben Westfall)
11. 11:25 AM - Low Tech Rudder Trim (Bill DeRouchey)
12. 11:46 AM - Accuracy Avionics (Eric_Kallio)
13. 12:20 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
14. 01:34 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Rick Sked)
15. 01:57 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (John Cumins)
16. 02:45 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Chris and Susie McGough)
17. 03:46 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Deems Davis)
18. 04:16 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (John Jessen)
19. 04:56 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (MauleDriver)
20. 05:19 PM - Re: Brake line question (johngoodman)
21. 07:10 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Bill DeRouchey)
22. 07:14 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Mike Doble (Home Office))
23. 07:45 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (David McNeill)
24. 08:07 PM - NW Builder Dinner (John Cox)
25. 08:09 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (John Cox)
26. 08:26 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Tim Olson)
27. 08:41 PM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Rick Sked)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias |
All, I have received several off-line inquiries as to the status of the
development of the spring bias rudder trim system. The work continues
however, it has gone down an unexpected path. Since receiving so many
requests for kits, I decided it would be best to put pencil to paper and
actually calculate the trim forces we could expect to see. Well, numbers
don't lie (if you ask the right question), and the numbers didn't look
good. The maximum trim force I could accomplish given the limits of the
servo motor both in stroke, and thrust, is 2lbs.
This is far below the value required to effectively trim the aircraft
through a wide range of the flight envelope. Van's estimated the required
forces to be 5-10 lbs for 'standard' trim, and 25 lbs for takeoff measured
at the bottom of the rudder pedal. I had a conversation with Ken from
Vans at Sun-N-Fun, I asked him "If you were going to design a rudder trim
for the 10 what would it look like?". Long answer short, he would design
a spring bias system, he would not add a movable trim tab to the rudder
due to the potential to put the rudder out of balance. Please note, I am
not trying to start a war here on the better way to add trim, just
relaying what I was told. He liked a spring system because it holds a bit
of pressure on the rudder, which could eliminate some adverse yaw in
turbulence. I asked him why they haven't designed a system yet, and he
first replied, we really don't think it is necessary, he then said that he
has tried a few times and couldn't come up with a simple enough solution.
So, what does this all mean? After seeing the post by Albert Gardner I
started to rethink the concept. I liked the idea of using extension
springs, as they would allow the forces acting on the servo to stay within
limits, while providing 10+ lbs of trim force. I still like the idea of
keeping the rudder cables under tension throughout the system, this means
the springs still need to be connected up-front. I have some ideas, but
have not assemble the complete concept yet. Unfortunately it will not be
as simple, which is a big negative in my book, I really like simple!
All is not lost, if a person does not want rudder trim, but is tired of
'floppy rudder syndrome' the torsion springs provide enough force. They
can be wound during installation to accomplish a certain fixed trim force,
eliminating the need to glue a trim block to the rudder. I will let
everyone know how this all turns out. Sorry for not sending an update
earlier, but I have been trying to get a complete answer before posting
something again.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - #40617 - Finishing
4 Partner Build
Jason Kreidler, Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, and Wayne Elsner
Sheboygan Falls, WI
Message 2
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| Subject: | Is it a Columbia 400/Cessna 400 or a RV10??? |
Thanks.
No, the painter did all the masking and tape line, I wanted no part of
that. The paint is Imron AFS400. The white is single stage and the netalic's
are cleared. Yes, the price included all the products and labor to spray the
etch wash primer, primer and color and strips.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schlatterer
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 11:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Is it a Columbia 400/Cessna 400 or a RV10???
So Ray, did you do all the tape work for the stripes, etc or just the bare
metal and fiberglass work. Did that include an etch primer or did they
alodine it, prime it, etc. What kind of paint system did they use? Imron,
PPG, etc?
Great looking airplane!
Bill S
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R
[NTK]
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Is it a Columbia 400/Cessna 400 or a RV10???
--> <Ray.R.Doerr@sprint.com>
The deal I made with the painter was that I would do all the prep of
the fiberglass including spraying them with 2K buildup primer. I also did
all the dis-assembly and re-assemble. It took about 12 man hours to do the
dis-assemble, which included removing all fiberglass parts, inspection
plates, trim motors, wheel pants, gearleg fairings, antenna's, cowl and
spinner. Basically anything that could be removed, was, include the data
plate. It then took about 18 man hours to do the re-assembly which included
installing the wing walk material and the Teflon tape to the flaps. Since I
ran out of time prepping the plane, the painter had to spray the build up
primer on the doors and cabin top, the rest I had done, so he charged me $70
hours for that work. The total bill was $6620.
A friend of mine dropped in on me when I was re-assembling the plane at
the paint shop and got a quote for his 3 color paint scheme for his RV-9A.
He quoted him $4500 if he completed all the fiberglass prep work up to and
including the 2K primer and $6500 if the painter had to do it all.
The painter is based on the field at Miami County Airport in Paola,
Kansas (K81), also great BBQ restaurant on the field as well. The company
is called Aircraft Refinishing Company Inc. and here is a link to there web
site. http://aircraftrefinishingco.com/index.html
Thanks
Ray Doerr
N519RV (40250) 373 hrs on the Hobbs.
________________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Testement
[jwt@roadmapscoaching.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Is it a Columbia 400/Cessna 400 or a RV10???
--> <jwt@roadmapscoaching.com>
Ray,
Looks really nice! Great design!
Mind sharing how long it took to paint, who did the work, cost??
John Testement
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R
[NTK]
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Is it a Columbia 400/Cessna 400 or a RV10???
--> <Ray.R.Doerr@sprint.com>
I finally got my RV-10 painted and all back together this weekend. Here is
a link to the pictures on PicasaWeb
http://picasaweb.google.com/rdoerr10/PaintingN519RVMay2008
Thanks
Ray Doerr
N519RV (40250) 373 hrs on the Hobbs.
Checked by AVG.
11:12 AM
Checked by AVG.
11:12 AM
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias |
I was going to reply off-line but decided that maybe more ideas can be
generated as a group:
jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> All, I have received several off-line inquiries as to the status of
> the development of the spring bias rudder trim system. The work
> continues however, it has gone down an unexpected path. Since
> receiving so many requests for kits, I decided it would be best to put
> pencil to paper and actually calculate the trim forces we could expect
> to see. Well, numbers don't lie (if you ask the right question), and
> the numbers didn't look good. The maximum trim force I could
> accomplish given the limits of the servo motor both in stroke, and
> thrust, is 2lbs.
I assume, from the statement below that this only applies to the torsion
spring design ..... so why not a small jackscrew instead of a trim servo?
SNIP
> So, what does this all mean? After seeing the post by Albert Gardner
> I started to rethink the concept. I liked the idea of using extension
> springs, as they would allow the forces acting on the servo to stay
> within limits, while providing 10+ lbs of trim force. I still like
> the idea of keeping the rudder cables under tension throughout the
> system, this means the springs still need to be connected up-front. I
> have some ideas, but have not assemble the complete concept yet.
> Unfortunately it will not be as simple, which is a big negative in my
> book, I really like simple!
Simple is always good! I think if there was a simple solution, it would
have shown up already. There are a lot of great minds out there so
there should have been something pop up .... even if it wasn't a really
great solution, it would be a start.
> All is not lost, if a person does not want rudder trim, but is tired
> of 'floppy rudder syndrome' the torsion springs provide enough force.
I've never had an airplane with the 'floppy rudder syndrome' ..... and
really don't want to start now. I own a Grumman AA-1B with rudder
springs ...... the only problem with them is that they're really strong
springs and they break ...... but folks smarter than me have devised a
'washer' tool to aid in changing them out. The springs really cure the
'floppy rudder syndrome' which means we have to incorporate a good
rudder gust lock to tame the beast. I've modified my rudder pedal
attach point to be inside the tunnel, (don't like sand and dirt on my
cables) and have thought of a pulley attached to the firewall to make a
closed loop system .... or extension springs to the firewall ......
after I find a good spot and beef it up a little. Alas, I just don't
have a good answer.
> They can be wound during installation to accomplish a certain fixed
> trim force, eliminating the need to glue a trim block to the rudder.
> I will let everyone know how this all turns out.
Thanks for your time/effort. Other than the jackscrew solution, I'm not
much help.
> Sorry for not sending an update earlier, but I have been trying to
> get a complete answer before posting something again.
Rome wasn't built in a day (although I wasn't there to figure out why
:-P ) and the solutions to difficult problems take time ..... and I'll
really be thinking of a solution before I get too far down the assembly
path where it's nigh on impossible to install a mod.
Linn
do not archive
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - #40617 - Finishing
> 4 Partner Build
> Jason Kreidler, Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, and Wayne Elsner
> Sheboygan Falls, WI
> *
>
>
> *
Message 4
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| Subject: | Rudder Trim - Spring Bias |
What kinds of problems have been seen with the glued tab or the riveted tab
other than it has only a cruise airspeed setting?
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias
I was going to reply off-line but decided that maybe more ideas can be
generated as a group:
jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote:
All, I have received several off-line inquiries as to the status of the
development of the spring bias rudder trim system. The work continues
however, it has gone down an unexpected path. Since receiving so many
requests for kits, I decided it would be best to put pencil to paper and
actually calculate the trim forces we could expect to see. Well, numbers
don't lie (if you ask the right question), and the numbers didn't look good.
The maximum trim force I could accomplish given the limits of the servo
motor both in stroke, and thrust, is 2lbs.
I assume, from the statement below that this only applies to the torsion
spring design ..... so why not a small jackscrew instead of a trim servo?
SNIP
So, what does this all mean? After seeing the post by Albert Gardner I
started to rethink the concept. I liked the idea of using extension
springs, as they would allow the forces acting on the servo to stay within
limits, while providing 10+ lbs of trim force. I still like the idea of
keeping the rudder cables under tension throughout the system, this means
the springs still need to be connected up-front. I have some ideas, but
have not assemble the complete concept yet. Unfortunately it will not be as
simple, which is a big negative in my book, I really like simple!
Simple is always good! I think if there was a simple solution, it would
have shown up already. There are a lot of great minds out there so there
should have been something pop up .... even if it wasn't a really great
solution, it would be a start.
All is not lost, if a person does not want rudder trim, but is tired of
'floppy rudder syndrome' the torsion springs provide enough force.
I've never had an airplane with the 'floppy rudder syndrome' ..... and
really don't want to start now. I own a Grumman AA-1B with rudder springs
...... the only problem with them is that they're really strong springs and
they break ...... but folks smarter than me have devised a 'washer' tool to
aid in changing them out. The springs really cure the 'floppy rudder
syndrome' which means we have to incorporate a good rudder gust lock to tame
the beast. I've modified my rudder pedal attach point to be inside the
tunnel, (don't like sand and dirt on my cables) and have thought of a pulley
attached to the firewall to make a closed loop system .... or extension
springs to the firewall ...... after I find a good spot and beef it up a
little. Alas, I just don't have a good answer.
They can be wound during installation to accomplish a certain fixed trim
force, eliminating the need to glue a trim block to the rudder. I will let
everyone know how this all turns out.
Thanks for your time/effort. Other than the jackscrew solution, I'm not
much help.
Sorry for not sending an update earlier, but I have been trying to get a
complete answer before posting something again.
Rome wasn't built in a day (although I wasn't there to figure out why :-P )
and the solutions to difficult problems take time ..... and I'll really be
thinking of a solution before I get too far down the assembly path where
it's nigh on impossible to install a mod.
Linn
do not archive
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - #40617 - Finishing
4 Partner Build
Jason Kreidler, Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, and Wayne Elsner
Sheboygan Falls, WI
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias |
I haven't been following this real closely but am very interested in
working solution ... excuse me if this has been covered.
Since servo force required is an issue, have you considered a totally
manual/mechanical system? For example, actuation via a pull on
T-handle with a twist to lock mechanism. This is what my Maule uses
though I am only familiar with the operation of it, not the design.
Bill "bonding doors" Watson
Durham
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias |
Jason,
Although I am quite early in the build, I have followed the rudder trim
threads with interest and I thought that the torsion spring was a great
idea. I was afraid that the linear servo approach might not work though,
and am sorry to hear your results. The reason it doesn't work, as you
found, is that the torque gradient (amount of torque per unit angular
displacement) of the torsion spring is too low, so the linear servo can't
produce enough displacement to generate the required force. The thing is,
the low torque gradient is necessary or a large force from the pilots leg
will be required to fully displace the rudder pedal.
I think this could be made to work in the same way that my garage door
tensioner works. It uses a worm gear to drive another gear that is fixed to
the end of the spring. You stick a hex driver in the end of the worm gear
and turn it with an electric drill to tension the torsion spring. The
amount of rotation of the spring is essentially unlimited using this method.
The ratio of the worm gear rotations to torsion spring rotations is high,
so any typical electric drill can provide enough torque to tension the
spring.
The analog for the rudder trim would be a 'rotary' servo (not sure if this
is correct terminology, I don't see this kind of thing on the Ray Allen web
site) that could spin a worm gear in either direction, driving a second gear
that is coaxial to and attached to the torsion spring, to tension the
spring. Much more complicated than what you tried, but I still like it
better (at this point at least) than chopping up my rudder to add a trim
system. Nothing beats the simplicity of a trim tab though!
Kent Ogden
#40710 Tailcone
>>> <jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com> 5/12/2008 8:03 AM >>>
All, I have received several off-line inquiries as to the status of the
development of the spring bias rudder trim system.
<<SNIPPED>>
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - #40617 - Finishing
4 Partner Build
Jason Kreidler, Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, and Wayne Elsner
Sheboygan Falls, WI
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias |
I just returned from The NW RV-10 builders semi annual dinner/get
together. There were 6-7 RV-10's that flew in for it. Among them was
Bill & Susie DeRouchey's plane from So Calif. Bill showed us his
solution for rudder trim. I was blown away !!!!! It is similar in
concept to what Bill Watson is suggesting, it is _elegantly simple_,
easy to implement and very effective. and has some benefits beyond trim.
I don't want to steal Bill's thunder so I'll wait for him to respond
directly. Bill and Susie are probably flying back home and it may be a
day or two before he's back on the list. When he reads this I'm hoping
he'll post some pictures and additional information. (I left my camera
in the bag in my room and couldn't take any pics).
MauleDriver wrote:
>
> considered a totally manual/mechanical system? For example,
> actuation via a pull on T-handle with a twist to lock mechanism.
PS. You should also see what the artistry and engineering of Paul
Grimstad has developed? (I'm salivating over it!!!!!!!!!)
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
Message 8
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Anyone consider these?
http://controls.tuthill.com/Products/ControlCableAssemblies/ControlCables.as
p
Could be vernier controlled and actuate via a spring the right rudder
pedal?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Brake line question |
I'm going to install some of the brake lines up to where they leave the tunnel
and I'm trying to pull the F 1067A Seat Floor for better access. I can get it
to slide aft about 1/16th of an inch and that's about it. Has anybody run into
this?
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182722#182722
Message 10
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| Subject: | Brake line question |
John,
I had a similar issue when I fit mine originally. It is due to the F-1067A
being too wide (just barely) to actually fit between the tunnel and the
F-1016 side panels. I was able to work mine out with a minimum of force and
not too much primer removal.
To make re-installation easier I use the scotch bright wheel and cleaned off
a bit of the F-1067A's on the inside edge on the back corner. I also
slightly (just a hair maybe a millimeter or so ) increased the size of the
joggle out the outside rear corner of the F-1067A's to help it clear the
F-1016 side panels.
My plane, if it ever flies, will probably fly crooked now :-)
-Ben
#40579
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 8:56 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Brake line question
I'm going to install some of the brake lines up to where they leave the
tunnel and I'm trying to pull the F 1067A Seat Floor for better access. I
can get it to slide aft about 1/16th of an inch and that's about it. Has
anybody run into this?
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182722#182722
Message 11
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while to
prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex designs
using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.
Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is cutting
into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab. This approach
has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always override the
rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in the list because
it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be elegant in its
simplicity.
I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less proper
engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder cable nylon
fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch the cable when
a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my feet then pinch one
or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are some tricks to get this
very simple design to work properly.
The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get caught
with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to handle
it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when beginning decent.
As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet instantly sensed the
lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind learned how to react immediately.
My feet feel they are pushing against a brick wall and the release
knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically, only one of the knobs are tightened.
Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great gust
lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw ball was
centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose when I encountered
turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We yawed around a
bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing diminshed about 80%
and reduced my piloting effort. In the future, I do not know if I will lock
the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more experimentation in this
situation.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right. After
these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut (AN366F
style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without removing
the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block thickness to 3/8"
to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Probably should have been
5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together
and drill an 1/8" hole through the mating surface. Then mill the thick block
with the half hole surface down .015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion
with the cable as its fulcrum to create the pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by maybe
two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is not
noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind does adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a delightful
afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
Message 12
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| Subject: | Accuracy Avionics |
Has anyone received any information about what went down at Accuracy. They emailed
customers saying they were closing their doors and an attorney would be in
contact, then they were gone. Does anyone expect to get their money or have we
seen a repeat of the Direct 2 Avionics cut and run.
Eric Kallio
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182758#182758
Message 13
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Bill, very simple and crude indeed but it's a bit refreshing to see a st
raight forward approach to this problem. Being a very visual person, it's
the first design in a while I could picture in my head just from reading th
e description of it. I may shamelessly steal this idea. :) Do you feel yo
u can "override" the clamping force with a firm push if need be?
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a whil
e to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex
designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.
Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is c
utting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab. Thi
s approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always ove
rride the rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in t
he list because it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be
elegant in its simplicity.
I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less pr
oper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder cabl
e nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch the
cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my feet t
hen pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are some
tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.
The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get c
aught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to
handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when begin
ning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet instan
tly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind learned
how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against a brick wa
ll and the release knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically, only one
of the knobs are tightened.
Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great
gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw ba
ll was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose
when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We y
awed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing dim
inshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort. In the future, I do not k
now if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more e
xperimentation in this situation.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right.
After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut
(AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension witho
ut removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block thic
kness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Probably
should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the tw
o nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the mating surface.
Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down .015 to .020. Thi
s will create a rocking motion with the cable as its fulcrum to create the
pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by
maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is
not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind
does adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a delig
htful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Michael,
Afet to talking to Bill this weekend and seeing the setup, you would bend t
he tunnel before overriding the clamp...Bill seelmed to think you couldn't
do it but I may be speaking out of turn and should wait for him to reply.
Rick Sked
----- Original Message -----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 12:18:07 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
=C2-=C2- Bill, very simple and crude indeed but it=99s a bit refr
eshing to see a straight forward approach to this problem.=C2- Being a ve
ry visual person, it=99s the first design in a while I could picture
in my head just from reading the description of it.=C2- I may shamelessly
steal this idea. J =C2- Do you feel you can =9Coverride=9D t
he clamping force with a firm push if need be?
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a whil
e to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex
designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.
Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is c
utting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab. Thi
s approach=C2-has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can alway
s override the rudder trim.=C2-=C2-Secondly, I expect my idea to be rej
ected many in=C2-the list=C2-because=C2-it will be judged as crude, h
owever,=C2-a simple design can be=C2-elegant in its simplicity.=C2-
I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted=C2-rudder and opt for a le
ss proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder
cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch
the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my f
eet then pinch one or both=C2-cables. See=C2-attachments for a visual.
There are some tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.
The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get c
aught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to
handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when begin
ning decent. As I began to fly,=C2-this issue became moot since my feet i
nstantly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind=C2
-learned how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against
a brick wall=C2-and the=C2-release knobs are within=C2-inches of my h
and. Typically, only one of the knobs are tightened.
Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great
gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw ba
ll was centered,=C2-my feet were on the floor, and=C2-the cable locks w
ere loose when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Reddin
g CA. We yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The
yawing diminshed about 80% and reduced=C2-my=C2-piloting effort. =C2-
In the future, I do not know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or
use my feet. Need more=C2-experimentation in this situation.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right.
After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut
(AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension witho
ut removing the tunnel cover. Also, I=C2-reduced the outboard nylon block
thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Prob
ably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp t
he two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the mating surf
ace. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down .015 to .020
. This will create a rocking motion with the cable as its fulcrum to create
the pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by
maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is
not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind
does adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a delig
htful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
===============
====
=======================
==
Message 15
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Bill
I think it is a great idea but I think it has some safety issues that need
to be discussed. Being some one who has been just about inverted by clear
air turbulence, I don't like the idea of any flight control being locked in
flight. If you have ever had a serious up set in flight it is all you can
do to react correctly let alone unlocking a flight control during the upset.
Any one thinking about this mod might want to think about this seriously.
That's my 2 cents worth.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
Bill, very simple and crude indeed but it's a bit refreshing to see a
straight forward approach to this problem. Being a very visual person, it's
the first design in a while I could picture in my head just from reading the
description of it. I may shamelessly steal this idea. :-) Do you feel you
can "override" the clamping force with a firm push if need be?
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while
to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex
designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.
Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is
cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab.
This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always
override the rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in
the list because it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be
elegant in its simplicity.
I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less
proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder
cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch
the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my
feet then pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are
some tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.
The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get
caught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to
handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when
beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet
instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind
learned how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against a
brick wall and the release knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically,
only one of the knobs are tightened.
Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great
gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw
ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose
when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We
yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing
diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort. In the future, I do not
know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more
experimentation in this situation.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right.
After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut
(AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without
removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block
thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch.
Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1.
Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the
mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down
.015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion with the cable as its
fulcrum to create the pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by
maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is
not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind
does adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a
delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Bill
thankyou for sharing your info with us. I am a bit concerned
about the safety factor of it being locked in as even the auto pilot can
be over ridden with force. I think there are to many "what ifs" for a
critical control to be locked in even one side.
I would definitly take it out if you sold the plane.
On our 6 we just riveted a simple bent piece of aloy set up for cruise
speed and painted the same as the rudder. Worked fine and failsafe.
Thanks again Bill and I am sure others will have ideas to and will
probably disagree with me but thats what the list is for , throwing
ideas around.
regards Chris 388
VH-ICY waiting to be signed off
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill DeRouchey
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:22 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a
while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several
complex designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various
reasons.
Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution
is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing
tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can
always override the rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be
rejected many in the list because it will be judged as crude, however, a
simple design can be elegant in its simplicity.
I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a
less proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the
rudder cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to
also pinch the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder
trim with my feet then pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a
visual. There are some tricks to get this very simple design to work
properly.
The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to
get caught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined
solution was to handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before
takeoff and when beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became
moot since my feet instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to
the pedals and my mind learned how to react immediately. My feet feel
they are pushing against a brick wall and the release knobs are within
inches of my hand. Typically, only one of the knobs are tightened.
Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a
great gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner
the yaw ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable
locks were loose when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north
of Redding CA. We yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per
cable). The yawing diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort.
In the future, I do not know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence
or use my feet. Need more experimentation in this situation.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about
right. After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3
anchor nut (AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable
tension without removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard
nylon block thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel
selector switch. Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid
Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an
1/8" hole through the mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the
half hole surface down .015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion
with the cable as its fulcrum to create the pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock
version by maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4
flights it is not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth
out and the mind does adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a
delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
I wouldn't discard the idea/design too soon. Bill and I also discussed
the 'locking' issue. He's well aware of it. I believe he said that in
his admittedly limited experience flying with it, that he felt that the
ability to 'unlock' the control was so direct and immediate as to make
it less of a risk/concern for him. Additionally, I would expect that
after your plane is tested and rigged the need for variable rudder trim
only occurs during limited portions of the flight. reducing (but NOT
eliminating the risk factor). I suppose it to be similar to the
friction lock on the throttle. Electrically activated trim systems also
have a risk factor associated with runaway.
Now with that said, I'm sure there are those that will still be
uncomfortable with a 'locked' control. There are at least to viable
spring biased designs I've seen, (Al Gardners & Jason Kreidler plus the
'Vic Syracuse solution. I'm only speculating, but _conceptually_ I
believe that it should be possible to work with Bill's design to achieve
a variable clamping force sufficient to hold the desired amount of trim,
and still allow for some 'breakout force' to overcome the friction.
During our discussion Bill mentioned that he had machined/fabricated a
slightly curved surface between the to clamp halves to act in somewhat
of a rocker fashion to enable the clamping action. It may mean
experimenting with some different clamping material, and different
amounts of 'curve'. Another idea would be to incorporate a compression
spring on the end of the other bolt and nut. Some epxerimenting with the
size and strength of the spring would be required, but it would allow
for the clamp to 'float' under variable pressure????????? I've got to
believe that the right combination of materials and camber would allow
for setting enough friction to hold the desired trim and still override
if necessary. Anybody got any suggestions? I also believe that the use
of a finer thread on the control knob may allow for more precise control
of the clamping pressure.
My 2 cents.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
> *
>
> *
Message 18
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Bill, after seeing this at the NW RV-10 dinner, I'd say it's an interesting
idea for a gust lock, but I would recommend against it as a rudder trim
mechanism. God forbid you got into an unusual attitude quickly, such as
might happen when you have your friendly 757 fly over you as you transit B
airspace. I was traveling in a 757 two weekends ago and got rocked, and I
mean thank goodness I had my seatbelt on type of rocked, by what I think
were wing tip vortices. If I were in an RV at the time, no matter which
type, it might have been flipped in seconds. No, I'd want my rudders
available at all times.
Just my 2 Pfennig's worth.
John Jessen
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 11:22 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while
to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex
designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.
Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is
cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab.
This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always
override the rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in
the list because it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be
elegant in its simplicity.
I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less
proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder
cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch
the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my
feet then pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are
some tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.
The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get
caught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to
handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when
beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet
instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind
learned how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against a
brick wall and the release knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically,
only one of the knobs are tightened.
Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great
gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw
ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose
when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We
yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing
diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort. In the future, I do not
know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more
experimentation in this situation.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right.
After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut
(AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without
removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block
thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch.
Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1.
Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the
mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down
.015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion with the cable as its
fulcrum to create the pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by
maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is
not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind
does adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a
delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
There is a certain minimalist elegance to this that frees up the brain
cells a bit. I'm thinking of it as a gust lock for a personal,
experimental aircraft that happens to work quite well as an ad hoc
rudder trim. The '10 does need a gust lock it seems...
We've got a floppy rudder that needs a lock and a trimmer. Hmmmm. I
think I'm going to tear the floorboards out of the Maule and take a look
at it's trim system just for grins.
Bill "door bonding" Watson
Durham NC
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
> After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a
> while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several
> complex designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various
> reasons.
>
> Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution
> is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing
> tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals
> can always override the rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be
> rejected many in the list because it will be judged as crude,
> however, a simple design can be elegant in its simplicity.
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Brake line question |
Thanks, I got it. The problem was the nutplates get blocked by the main spar and
prevent sliding the piece fore and aft. You have to flex it to get it out.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182809#182809
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Many of you folks have the same concern as I have with this implementation. Yet
I made this modification to our RV-10 to observe the good and bad things and
hopefully design out the bad in the next revision. So far, its worked better than
I anticipated and other unforseen good features have arisen. When this happens
I get encouraged.
A few comments:
Only one screw needs to be tightened during cruise. The clamp is not used for
climbing nor decending.
I carefully choose a strong metal star wheel with deep tangs that fit my fingers
to apply force if necessary. The range between tight and loose is approximately
1.5 turns and in a normal cockpit situation I tighten or release it in just
under 3 seconds.
I have not determined if the screw can be tightened such that the rudder will
not move and still be overridden by the pedals.
I am very interested in Bill Watson's investigation of his Maule, as it has a
rudder locking mechanism of some sort.
The RV10 may roll like the RV7 or 8. My guys tell me they routinely perform acrobatics
with their feet on the floor so I wonder how much of the rudder would
be actually needed with turbulence. I keep my feet on the pedals during turbulence
but don't know if I really need the rudder.
Lets use our energy to address the main issue and add pilot override into the
design. Revision B could be designed with an automatic slip or limited tension
or something else I have not thought of. This is where knowledgable people
and good thinking can work.
I will pursue this with or without the Matronics folks. For me, experimental
is fun. Thanks for the comments and cares. I am not a wild man and do care about
my health, my passengers health and everyone flying.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
There is a certain minimalist elegance to this that frees up the brain
cells a bit. I'm thinking of it as a gust lock for a personal,
experimental aircraft that happens to work quite well as an ad hoc
rudder trim. The '10 does need a gust lock it seems...
We've got a floppy rudder that needs a lock and a trimmer. Hmmmm. I
think I'm going to tear the floorboards out of the Maule and take a look
at it's trim system just for grins.
Bill "door bonding" Watson
Durham NC
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
> After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a
> while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several
> complex designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various
> reasons.
>
> Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution
> is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing
> tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals
> can always override the rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be
> rejected many in the list because it will be judged as crude,
> however, a simple design can be elegant in its simplicity.
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Interesting idea. Just a note, the Cessna 400 (former Columbia 400) has a
"rudder hold" switch next to the flap lever. I flew the 400 twice last week
for a total of about an hour and the "rudder hold seems to work nice. How
did they do it? Anyone know?
Mike
Do not archive
Mike Doble
Builder 40691
Working on my tail.....STILL
Waukesha, Wisconsin
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while
to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex
designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.
Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is
cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab.
This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always
override the rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in
the list because it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be
elegant in its simplicity.
I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less
proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder
cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch
the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my
feet then pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are
some tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.
The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get
caught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to
handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when
beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet
instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind
learned how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against a
brick wall and the release knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically,
only one of the knobs are tightened.
Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great
gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw
ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose
when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We
yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing
diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort. In the future, I do not
know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more
experimentation in this situation.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right.
After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut
(AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without
removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block
thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch.
Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1.
Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the
mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down
.015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion with the cable as its
fulcrum to create the pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by
maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is
not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind
does adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a
delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
Message 23
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would we
consider it in the experimental? Vic is correct that the proper way to do it
is the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all
times with your feet flat on the floor. If you can accept using your feet
during takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab
riveted to the rudder trailing edge will do the job at your standard cruise
airspeed. If you want to be driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots
use their feet. We have settled on the rudder fixed trim tab.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
I wouldn't discard the idea/design too soon. Bill and I also discussed the
'locking' issue. He's well aware of it. I believe he said that in his
admittedly limited experience flying with it, that he felt that the ability
to 'unlock' the control was so direct and immediate as to make it less of a
risk/concern for him. Additionally, I would expect that after your plane is
tested and rigged the need for variable rudder trim only occurs during
limited portions of the flight. reducing (but NOT eliminating the risk
factor). I suppose it to be similar to the friction lock on the throttle.
Electrically activated trim systems also have a risk factor associated with
runaway.
Now with that said, I'm sure there are those that will still be
uncomfortable with a 'locked' control. There are at least to viable spring
biased designs I've seen, (Al Gardners & Jason Kreidler plus the 'Vic
Syracuse solution. I'm only speculating, but _conceptually_ I believe that
it should be possible to work with Bill's design to achieve a variable
clamping force sufficient to hold the desired amount of trim, and still
allow for some 'breakout force' to overcome the friction.
During our discussion Bill mentioned that he had machined/fabricated a
slightly curved surface between the to clamp halves to act in somewhat of a
rocker fashion to enable the clamping action. It may mean experimenting with
some different clamping material, and different amounts of 'curve'. Another
idea would be to incorporate a compression spring on the end of the other
bolt and nut. Some epxerimenting with the size and strength of the spring
would be required, but it would allow for the clamp to 'float' under
variable pressure????????? I've got to believe that the right combination
of materials and camber would allow for setting enough friction to hold the
desired trim and still override if necessary. Anybody got any suggestions?
I also believe that the use of a finer thread on the control knob may allow
for more precise control of the clamping pressure.
My 2 cents.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
> *
>
> *
Message 24
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| Subject: | NW Builder Dinner |
In addition to Tim James exciting VSTOL RV-10 with VGs, bush tires, dual
puck brake calipers and other mods like his Chrome Moly Roll Bar, Paul
Grimstad brought his re-engineered and ready to move Rudder Pedal Kit.
those beauties bolt right up and allow a direct change-out of the VANS
(right down to the ole Matco cylinders). No more rats nest or spider
web of ugly brake cables and fluid lines. the cables never leave the
tunnel. the fluid lines are forward of your feet. Take a look at those
pedals "RV 10".
I would have made another mod to the Grove cylinders but then I never
stop tinkering with what is for many of you an already Great Kit. Here
is a picture I stole while they were sleeping on Rob's bench. I believe
they are reserved for Deems/
John Cox
#600
<<Pauls new Pedals.pdf>>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Michael, when I first heard Bill tell of them, they were to serve as
Rudder locks. they are simple and easy to retro. Here is the picture I
stole as Deems was still cornering Bill on the sideline.
John C.
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 12:18 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
Bill, very simple and crude indeed but it's a bit refreshing to see a
straight forward approach to this problem. Being a very visual person,
it's the first design in a while I could picture in my head just from
reading the description of it. I may shamelessly steal this idea. J Do
you feel you can "override" the clamping force with a firm push if need
be?
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a
while to prove its worth I am ready to go public.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about
right. After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3
anchor nut (AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable
tension without removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard
nylon block thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel
selector switch. Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid
Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an
1/8" hole through the mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the
half hole surface down .015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion
with the cable as its fulcrum to create the pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version
by maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights
it is not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and
the mind does adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a
delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
One other note about the worries of runaway trim with a servo controlled
trim tab.... If you build the tab as Vic did, it's very unlikely that
you'll get enough force and deflection to do anything but adjust the
trim....and if it ran away on you, it would be very easy to hold pedal
pressure against full out-of-trim. This is a huge contrast to the
elevator, where you may not be able to hold the plane in control if
you had runaway elevator trim. A plain old bendable trim tab, or
tapered block is an acceptable basic trim alternate for those who
are squeamish of doing anything to the rudder. And, rudder gust locks
are cheap and easy to fashion.
Regarding locking the rudder in place....keep in mind the extent at
which some people even argue against using a seatbelt as an elevator
gust lock....and the not-too-far in the past crash at a flyin that
happened because someone "forgot" to remove the belt. I'd really
hate to see someone rolling down the runway in a crosswind or even
just taxiing in a row of planes, and suddenly realize that they have
their pedals locked. But, to each his own I guess...we're allowed to
build to a higher or lower standard of safety as we see fit. At
least there are options.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
David McNeill wrote:
>
> This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would we
> consider it in the experimental? Vic is correct that the proper way to do it
> is the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all
> times with your feet flat on the floor. If you can accept using your feet
> during takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab
> riveted to the rudder trailing edge will do the job at your standard cruise
> airspeed. If you want to be driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots
> use their feet. We have settled on the rudder fixed trim tab.
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
I agree with Bill,
We spoke quite a bit Saturday evening=C2-about the downside of the design
, he is well aware of the things that could go wrong with the system and ha
s thought out the problems that could arise. He is not one to go off half c
ocked, as a matter of fact he was getting ready for the flak about the shor
tcomings of his design after it became public. It is a checklist item for h
im, this is experimental.=C2-I'm not sure anyone else could come up with
a horror scenario that he has not already thought through. I watched he and
his wife take off that evening, after seeing them together there is no way
he would jeopardize his safety, let alone that of=C2-his wife and family
.
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill DeRouchey" <billderou@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 7:07:27 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
Many of you folks have the same concern as I have with this implementation.
Yet I made this modification to our RV-10 to observe the good and bad thin
gs and hopefully design out the bad in the next revision. So far, its worke
d better than I anticipated and other unforseen good features have arisen.
When this happens I get encouraged.
A few comments:
Only one screw needs to be tightened during cruise. The clamp is not used f
or climbing nor decending.
I carefully choose a strong metal star wheel with deep tangs that fit my fi
ngers=C2-to apply force if necessary. The range between tight and loose i
s approximately 1.5 turns and in=C2-a normal cockpit situation I tighten
or release it in just under=C2-3 seconds.=C2-
I have not determined if the screw can be tightened such that the rudder wi
ll not move and still be overridden by the pedals.
I am very interested in Bill Watson's investigation of his Maule, as it has
a rudder locking mechanism of some sort.
The RV10 may roll like the RV7 or 8. My guys tell me they routinely perform
acrobatics with their feet on the floor so I wonder how much of the rudder
would be actually needed with turbulence. I keep my feet on the pedals=C2
-during turbulence but don't=C2-know if I really need the rudder.
Lets use our energy to address the main issue and add=C2-pilot override i
nto the design.=C2- Revision B could be designed with an automatic slip o
r limited tension or something else I have not thought of. This is where kn
owledgable people and good thinking can work.=C2-
I will pursue this with or without the Matronics folks. For me,=C2-experi
mental is fun. Thanks for the comments and cares. I=C2-am not a wild man
and do care about my health, my passengers health and everyone flying.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB,=C2-flying
MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
There is a certain minimalist elegance to this that frees up the brain
cells a bit. I'm thinking of it as a gust lock for a personal,
experimental aircraft that happens to work quite well as an ad hoc
rudder trim. The '10 does need a gust lock it seems...
We've got a floppy rudder that needs a lock and a trimmer. Hmmmm. I
think I'm going to tear the floorboards out of the Maule and take a look
at it's trim system just for grins.
Bill "door bonding" Watson
Durham NC
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
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