Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:59 AM - Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 (David McNeill)
2. 04:54 AM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (linn Walters)
3. 06:24 AM - Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 (Rick Sked)
4. 06:27 AM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Rene Felker)
5. 06:36 AM - Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias (jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com)
6. 06:47 AM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
7. 07:07 AM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
8. 07:21 AM - Kudos (Les Kearney)
9. 07:35 AM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (pascal)
10. 08:41 AM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Scott Schmidt)
11. 09:02 AM - Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim (Bill DeRouchey)
12. 09:22 AM - Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California (John Cumins)
13. 10:11 AM - Re: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California (pilotdds@aol.com)
14. 10:35 AM - Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias (linn Walters)
15. 11:05 AM - NW RV-10 Builders and Flyers Dinner (John Jessen)
16. 11:54 AM - Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 (Emond)
17. 11:54 AM - Re: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California (Dave Saylor)
18. 12:17 PM - Re: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California (John Cumins)
19. 12:27 PM - Re: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California (Rene Felker)
20. 01:04 PM - Re: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California (John Cumins)
21. 01:07 PM - Low Tech Rudder Trim (Bill DeRouchey)
22. 07:15 PM - Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 (raddatz)
23. 07:35 PM - Re: N46007 Phase I complete (DejaVu)
24. 07:41 PM - Air Compressor size (speckter@comcast.net)
25. 08:18 PM - Re: Air Compressor size (pascal)
26. 08:40 PM - Re: Kudos (AirMike)
27. 08:44 PM - Re: N46007 Phase I complete (David McNeill)
28. 08:54 PM - Ailereon Bellcrank bolt - safety note (AirMike)
29. 09:04 PM - Re: Re: Kudos (Les Kearney)
30. 09:41 PM - Re: Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 (lessdragprod@aol.com)
31. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 (Rick Sked)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 |
Did anyone have to adjust the low pitch stop on the prop from Van's to get
the 2700 RPM? or was the entire adjustment in the governor?
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
I'm sure there will be more opposing views for this comment ..... like
mine. Sorry for the slow reply, but they shut the power off because of
the fires in Palm Bay (FL). It was just a hotter day for me! :-P
David McNeill wrote:
>
> This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would we
> consider it in the experimental?
Because that's where all the innovation is occurring. There hasn't been an 'original'
idea in the certified aircraft (OK, I'll give you composites and friction
stir welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got involved.
> Vic is correct that the proper way to do it
> is the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all
> times with your feet flat on the floor.
Proper??? Whose doing the rating??? I think 'one way' or 'a complex
way' or some other description would be better than 'proper'. This
suggests that all other solutions are 'improper'.
> If you can accept using your feet
> during takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab
> riveted to the rudder trailing edge will do the job at your standard cruise
> airspeed. If you want to be driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots
> use their feet. We have settled on the rudder fixed trim tab.
>
Well, good for you. I, for one, don't want to be an aeronautical
engineer nor test pilot, nor play one on TV because TV is a possible
place to end up when the test pilot finds out that that extra mass of
the moveable rudder trim effected the flutter speed. If Vans thought it
was 1: necessary 2: really useful 3: a great idea ...... then I think
it would have been an option at the very least. Don't get me wrong
here, this isn't a flame ..... just another point of view. I don't have
enough experience to know how many four place airplanes in our
size/weight category have or don't have rudder trim. I do know that the
few four place airplanes I've flown didn't have rudder trim. Now I'm
in the spot of trying to decide whether I want to cut up my
already-completed rudder to install rudder trim. Along with trying to
figure out what I want in the panel.
Back in a minute .... I need something for my migraine!!! :-\
Linn
do not archive .... too opinionated
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:44 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
>
>
> I wouldn't discard the idea/design too soon. Bill and I also discussed the
> 'locking' issue. He's well aware of it. I believe he said that in his
> admittedly limited experience flying with it, that he felt that the ability
> to 'unlock' the control was so direct and immediate as to make it less of a
> risk/concern for him. Additionally, I would expect that after your plane is
> tested and rigged the need for variable rudder trim only occurs during
> limited portions of the flight. reducing (but NOT eliminating the risk
> factor). I suppose it to be similar to the friction lock on the throttle.
> Electrically activated trim systems also have a risk factor associated with
> runaway.
> Now with that said, I'm sure there are those that will still be
> uncomfortable with a 'locked' control. There are at least to viable spring
> biased designs I've seen, (Al Gardners & Jason Kreidler plus the 'Vic
> Syracuse solution. I'm only speculating, but _conceptually_ I believe that
> it should be possible to work with Bill's design to achieve a variable
> clamping force sufficient to hold the desired amount of trim, and still
> allow for some 'breakout force' to overcome the friction.
> During our discussion Bill mentioned that he had machined/fabricated a
> slightly curved surface between the to clamp halves to act in somewhat of a
> rocker fashion to enable the clamping action. It may mean experimenting with
> some different clamping material, and different amounts of 'curve'. Another
> idea would be to incorporate a compression spring on the end of the other
> bolt and nut. Some epxerimenting with the size and strength of the spring
> would be required, but it would allow for the clamp to 'float' under
> variable pressure????????? I've got to believe that the right combination
> of materials and camber would allow for setting enough friction to hold the
> desired trim and still override if necessary. Anybody got any suggestions?
> I also believe that the use of a finer thread on the control knob may allow
> for more precise control of the clamping pressure.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> 'Its all done....Its just not put together'
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>
>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 |
David,
I don't know if this will help but this was the response I got from MT about setting
the governor and low speed RPM.
Rick Sked
40185
"All P-860-( ) governors are basically the same. The - ( ) number only refers
to the control arm position and the max. rpm of the governor. To change the
control arm, loosen the 6 screws, turn the entire center portion to the
desired position, tighten the 6 screws and safety.
To change max rpm the set screw on the high rpm stop is turned
counterclockwise (out) to increase rpm and clockwise (in) to decrease rpm.
If there is not enough adjustment possible ( 1 turn = 25 rpm) the control
arm must be reset on the spline one notch at the time.
All this can be done on the plane.
To have MT Propeller USA, Inc. modify the governor max. rpm would cost
approx. $100.00, unfortunately the control arm position must be adjusted on
the plane"
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 3:55:37 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5
Message 4
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
"If Vans thought it was 1: necessary 2: really useful 3: a great idea
...... then I think it would have been an option at the very least."
I chose to cut up my already completed rudder and install Vic's solution.
Although I have not done a lot of cross country it is nice to be able to
adjust the rudder for various speeds. You don't get much authority out of
the trim, but it is enough to deal with the various cruise configurations.
Now to get to the 1, 2, 3....I have not put a lot of creditability into what
Vans thinks is "necessary." I flew 410RV for my transition training and I
am under the belief that an attitude indicator is necessary, really useful
and a great idea to have in every airplane, even day VFR...but 410RV does
not have one??
As we march forward in our goal to make our perfect airplane each one of us
must decide what is "necessary" for our flying. I know I focused on two
areas and put in a little redundancy..stalls and fuel. I installed the
standard stall warning, an AOA, the EFIS of course (2 ea), and a Trutrak
ADI...they all provide stall warning. Fuel..float type fuel gages, flow
meter and low fuel sensors in each tank. If I inadvertently stall this
airplane or run out of fuel...I deserve whatever I get...
Now, as far as the rudder trim...I would say it is a great idea, but not
necessary. I may change my mind after a few long cross countries.
I think the part of the building process I liked the most was being able to
make the airplane fit my needs. For example, my wife can not fly above 10K
without getting airsick and since I live in Utah there are not to many
places we can go and not get above 10K, so I put in a built in O2 system.
Not necessary, but a real great idea.
The great thing about this forum is that we can freely express our ideas and
each one of us can take away what we want and need. People on the list do
not want to start "wars", but I think the "wars" are where the most
divergent of ideas are expressed. I am normally more of a lurker than a
contributor but that is normally because the war is normally over before I
even read the shot that started it.
I for one, would not want to "lock" down my rudder cables, but that design
has lead me to thinking about other options I did not consider before....on
my next plane maybe I can...
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
I'm sure there will be more opposing views for this comment ..... like mine.
Sorry for the slow reply, but they shut the power off because of the fires
in Palm Bay (FL). It was just a hotter day for me! :-P
David McNeill wrote:
<dlm46007@cox.net>
This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would we
consider it in the experimental?
Because that's where all the innovation is occurring. There hasn't been an
'original' idea in the certified aircraft (OK, I'll give you composites and
friction stir welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got involved.
Vic is correct that the proper way to do it
is the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all
times with your feet flat on the floor.
Proper??? Whose doing the rating??? I think 'one way' or 'a complex way'
or some other description would be better than 'proper'. This suggests that
all other solutions are 'improper'.
If you can accept using your feet
during takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab
riveted to the rudder trailing edge will do the job at your standard cruise
airspeed. If you want to be driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots
use their feet. We have settled on the rudder fixed trim tab.
Well, good for you. I, for one, don't want to be an aeronautical engineer
nor test pilot, nor play one on TV because TV is a possible place to end up
when the test pilot finds out that that extra mass of the moveable rudder
trim effected the flutter speed. If Vans thought it was 1: necessary 2:
really useful 3: a great idea ...... then I think it would have been an
option at the very least. Don't get me wrong here, this isn't a flame .....
just another point of view. I don't have enough experience to know how many
four place airplanes in our size/weight category have or don't have rudder
trim. I do know that the few four place airplanes I've flown didn't have
rudder trim. Now I'm in the spot of trying to decide whether I want to cut
up my already-completed rudder to install rudder trim. Along with trying to
figure out what I want in the panel.
Back in a minute .... I need something for my migraine!!! :-\
Linn
do not archive .... too opinionated
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
<deemsdavis@cox.net>
I wouldn't discard the idea/design too soon. Bill and I also discussed the
'locking' issue. He's well aware of it. I believe he said that in his
admittedly limited experience flying with it, that he felt that the ability
to 'unlock' the control was so direct and immediate as to make it less of a
risk/concern for him. Additionally, I would expect that after your plane is
tested and rigged the need for variable rudder trim only occurs during
limited portions of the flight. reducing (but NOT eliminating the risk
factor). I suppose it to be similar to the friction lock on the throttle.
Electrically activated trim systems also have a risk factor associated with
runaway.
Now with that said, I'm sure there are those that will still be
uncomfortable with a 'locked' control. There are at least to viable spring
biased designs I've seen, (Al Gardners & Jason Kreidler plus the 'Vic
Syracuse solution. I'm only speculating, but _conceptually_ I believe that
it should be possible to work with Bill's design to achieve a variable
clamping force sufficient to hold the desired amount of trim, and still
allow for some 'breakout force' to overcome the friction.
During our discussion Bill mentioned that he had machined/fabricated a
slightly curved surface between the to clamp halves to act in somewhat of a
rocker fashion to enable the clamping action. It may mean experimenting with
some different clamping material, and different amounts of 'curve'. Another
idea would be to incorporate a compression spring on the end of the other
bolt and nut. Some epxerimenting with the size and strength of the spring
would be required, but it would allow for the clamp to 'float' under
variable pressure????????? I've got to believe that the right combination
of materials and camber would allow for setting enough friction to hold the
desired trim and still override if necessary. Anybody got any suggestions?
I also believe that the use of a finer thread on the control knob may allow
for more precise control of the clamping pressure.
My 2 cents.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
*
*
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias |
A few response rolled into one.
"so why not a small jackscrew instead of a trim servo?"
If I could find something light, inexpensive, and simple, it would
certainly be an option. Anyone have a source?
"What kinds of problems have been seen with the glued tab or the riveted
tab other than it has only a cruise airspeed setting?"
Absolutely no problems at all, rudder trim may not be high on some lists,
but it is on mine. The fixed trim offers great benefit (extremely
simple), at of course a price (fixed trim). I know others have decided
not to install trim, still others have cut into a perfectly good painted
rudder to add trim. Like any option it is a personal choice.
"Since servo force required is an issue, have you considered a totally
manual/mechanical system?"
Yes, just haven't found a cute, light way of doing it. However, electric
means it can be buried in any orientation at any location, opening up more
mounting options. A manual system would be a real benefit, as I know a
few are looking for a manual system.
"I think this could be made to work in the same way that my garage door
tensioner works."
This would be an great approach, the question is where to get something
like this?
The great thing about sharing ideas is the collaboration. Many of us have
obviously been thinking of different approaches to this 'problem'. In
looking over Bill DeRouchey's approach I got to thinking...
I think the secret to making this really simple is to start with a
completely closed loop system. So what would happen if we mounted a
pulley to the firewall centered between the left and right rudder pedals
on either the pilot or copilot side of the aircraft. Then connect a cable
to the two pedals routed through the pulley. This gets us a closed loop
system.
Next we use Bill's concept, with a few changes. Since we now have a
closed loop, we only need to act on one of the rudder cables. So instead
of clamping the cable, we clamp two springs to the cable (about 12 inches
apart), these two springs are then hooked in the middle to the knob that
passes through the tunnel wall. The tunnel wall is slotted, allowing the
knob to move fore and aft. So to adjust the trim you would loosen the
knob slide it back until you center the ball, then re-tighten the knob.
The springs would still allow full use of the rudder, and the world is in
perfect harmony. Well, at least the ball is in the center.
I wonder if the cable needs to be supported between the springs, I keep
thinking that the springs would just want to pull together leaving the
cable slack between the springs. Maybe since the system is now closed,
the two trim springs would act as a 'slack take-up'. Also, not sure if
there is enough room to fit the forward spring, and still keep the knob
where it can be reached.
What I like is the fact that we can now have either manual or electric
trim. In addition this certainly meets the simple, and relatively easy to
install criteria. Any thoughts?
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - #40617 - Finishing
4 Partner Build
Jason Kreidler, Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, and Wayne Elsner
Sheboygan Falls, WI
Message 6
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
I believe someone earlier in the thread had mentioned that Ken, not sure wh
ich, at Van's said they didn't add it because of concern over balance of th
e rudder. So yes , there is some concern over adding an in rudder electric
trim. Whether or not it's a well founded concern we don't know.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
I'm sure there will be more opposing views for this comment ..... like mine
. Sorry for the slow reply, but they shut the power off because of the fir
es in Palm Bay (FL). It was just a hotter day for me! :-P
David McNeill wrote:
dlm46007@cox.net>
This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would w
e
consider it in the experimental?
Because that's where all the innovation is occurring. There hasn't been an
'original' idea in the certified aircraft (OK, I'll give you composites and
friction stir welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got involved.
Vic is correct that the proper way to do it
is the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all
times with your feet flat on the floor.
Proper??? Whose doing the rating??? I think 'one way' or 'a complex way'
or some other description would be better than 'proper'. This suggests tha
t all other solutions are 'improper'.
If you can accept using your feet
during takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab
riveted to the rudder trailing edge will do the job at your standard cruise
airspeed. If you want to be driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots
use their feet. We have settled on the rudder fixed trim tab.
Well, good for you. I, for one, don't want to be an aeronautical engineer
nor test pilot, nor play one on TV because TV is a possible place to end u
p when the test pilot finds out that that extra mass of the moveable rudder
trim effected the flutter speed. If Vans thought it was 1: necessary 2:
really useful 3: a great idea ...... then I think it would have been an opt
ion at the very least. Don't get me wrong here, this isn't a flame ..... j
ust another point of view. I don't have enough experience to know how many
four place airplanes in our size/weight category have or don't have rudder
trim. I do know that the few four place airplanes I've flown didn't have
rudder trim. Now I'm in the spot of trying to decide whether I want to cu
t up my already-completed rudder to install rudder trim. Along with trying
to figure out what I want in the panel.
Back in a minute .... I need something for my migraine!!! :-\
Linn
do not archive .... too opinionated
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
emsdavis@cox.net>
I wouldn't discard the idea/design too soon. Bill and I also discussed the
'locking' issue. He's well aware of it. I believe he said that in his
admittedly limited experience flying with it, that he felt that the ability
to 'unlock' the control was so direct and immediate as to make it less of a
risk/concern for him. Additionally, I would expect that after your plane is
tested and rigged the need for variable rudder trim only occurs during
limited portions of the flight. reducing (but NOT eliminating the risk
factor). I suppose it to be similar to the friction lock on the throttle.
Electrically activated trim systems also have a risk factor associated with
runaway.
Now with that said, I'm sure there are those that will still be
uncomfortable with a 'locked' control. There are at least to viable spring
biased designs I've seen, (Al Gardners & Jason Kreidler plus the 'Vic
Syracuse solution. I'm only speculating, but _conceptually_ I believe that
it should be possible to work with Bill's design to achieve a variable
clamping force sufficient to hold the desired amount of trim, and still
allow for some 'breakout force' to overcome the friction.
During our discussion Bill mentioned that he had machined/fabricated a
slightly curved surface between the to clamp halves to act in somewhat of a
rocker fashion to enable the clamping action. It may mean experimenting wit
h
some different clamping material, and different amounts of 'curve'. Another
idea would be to incorporate a compression spring on the end of the other
bolt and nut. Some epxerimenting with the size and strength of the spring
would be required, but it would allow for the clamp to 'float' under
variable pressure????????? I've got to believe that the right combination
of materials and camber would allow for setting enough friction to hold the
desired trim and still override if necessary. Anybody got any suggestions?
I also believe that the use of a finer thread on the control knob may allow
for more precise control of the clamping pressure.
My 2 cents.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
*
*
Message 8
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|
Hi
A few weeks ago I read some posts about the people at vans who load customer
trailers for "will call" orders.
Last Friday I pick up my QB wings and finish kit. As suggested by Vans's, I
rented a U-Haul (these have side rails which are very important) and 3 dozen
packing pads. Brian loaded the wings and tied them off to the side rails and
then placed a very long large crate between the wings. He did an amazing job
of securing the crate so that that did not move whatsoever during the 1,100
mile trip home. After I saw how he secured the load, I was sure there would
be no problems.
I got home yesterday and unloaded the U-Haul and found that everything was
in perfect condition.
I just want to echo the earlier posts sentiment that the guys who load our
crates and truck do a fabulous job and take great pride in their work. When
I was chatting with Brian, he mentioned that he packs most of the difficult
crates (fuse kits) and is always looking to find better ways to get the job
done. You just have to love dealing with people like this.
Kudos to the shipping team at Van's!!
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643 - Now with a lot more parts
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Good points Rene.. I think there is some great features in Bill's
concept.. Scott mentioned the need for a good "rudder lock" Bill's
serves this well. Bill has a DR plan for unusual activity and in the end
seems his concept fits his needs.
I am still thinking less evasive rudder wedge at this point as Scott S
has said it fits his needs and it gives me the "feel" of what works or
doesn't when I finally get the plane off the ground but I am open to
ideas.
I say kudos to Bill for thinking through a new design.
Pascal
From: Rene Felker
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 6:26 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
"If Vans thought it was 1: necessary 2: really useful 3: a great idea
...... then I think it would have been an option at the very least."
I chose to cut up my already completed rudder and install Vic's
solution. Although I have not done a lot of cross country it is nice to
be able to adjust the rudder for various speeds. You don't get much
authority out of the trim, but it is enough to deal with the various
cruise configurations.
Now to get to the 1, 2, 3....I have not put a lot of creditability into
what Vans thinks is "necessary." I flew 410RV for my transition
training and I am under the belief that an attitude indicator is
necessary, really useful and a great idea to have in every airplane,
even day VFR...but 410RV does not have one??
As we march forward in our goal to make our perfect airplane each one of
us must decide what is "necessary" for our flying. I know I focused on
two areas and put in a little redundancy..stalls and fuel. I installed
the standard stall warning, an AOA, the EFIS of course (2 ea), and a
Trutrak ADI...they all provide stall warning. Fuel..float type fuel
gages, flow meter and low fuel sensors in each tank. If I inadvertently
stall this airplane or run out of fuel...I deserve whatever I get...
Now, as far as the rudder trim...I would say it is a great idea, but not
necessary. I may change my mind after a few long cross countries.
I think the part of the building process I liked the most was being able
to make the airplane fit my needs. For example, my wife can not fly
above 10K without getting airsick and since I live in Utah there are not
to many places we can go and not get above 10K, so I put in a built in
O2 system. Not necessary, but a real great idea.
The great thing about this forum is that we can freely express our ideas
and each one of us can take away what we want and need. People on the
list do not want to start "wars", but I think the "wars" are where the
most divergent of ideas are expressed. I am normally more of a lurker
than a contributor but that is normally because the war is normally over
before I even read the shot that started it.
I for one, would not want to "lock" down my rudder cables, but that
design has lead me to thinking about other options I did not consider
before....on my next plane maybe I can...
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
I'm sure there will be more opposing views for this comment ..... like
mine. Sorry for the slow reply, but they shut the power off because of
the fires in Palm Bay (FL). It was just a hotter day for me! :-P
David McNeill wrote:
solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would
weconsider it in the experimental?Because that's where all the
innovation is occurring. There hasn't been an 'original' idea in the
certified aircraft (OK, I'll give you composites and friction stir
welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got involved. Vic is correct that
the proper way to do itis the electric trim in the rudder if you have to
be able to fly at alltimes with your feet flat on the floor.Proper???
Whose doing the rating??? I think 'one way' or 'a complex way' or some
other description would be better than 'proper'. This suggests that all
other solutions are 'improper'.
If you can accept using your feetduring takeoff and climb and during
descent and landing then a fixed tabriveted to the rudder trailing edge
will do the job at your standard cruiseairspeed. If you want to be
driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilotsuse their feet. We have
settled on the rudder fixed trim tab. Well, good for you. I, for one,
don't want to be an aeronautical engineer nor test pilot, nor play one
on TV because TV is a possible place to end up when the test pilot
finds out that that extra mass of the moveable rudder trim effected the
flutter speed. If Vans thought it was 1: necessary 2: really useful 3:
a great idea ...... then I think it would have been an option at the
very least. Don't get me wrong here, this isn't a flame ..... just
another point of view. I don't have enough experience to know how many
four place airplanes in our size/weight category have or don't have
rudder trim. I do know that the few four place airplanes I've flown
didn't have rudder trim. Now I'm in the spot of trying to decide
whether I want to cut up my already-completed rudder to install rudder
trim. Along with trying to figure out what I want in the panel.
Back in a minute .... I need something for my migraine!!! :-\
Linn
do not archive .... too opinionated
-----Original Message-----From:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matron
ics.com] On Behalf Of Deems DavisSent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:44 PMTo:
rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim -->
RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net> I wouldn't
discard the idea/design too soon. Bill and I also discussed the'locking'
issue. He's well aware of it. I believe he said that in hisadmittedly
limited experience flying with it, that he felt that the abilityto
'unlock' the control was so direct and immediate as to make it less of
arisk/concern for him. Additionally, I would expect that after your
plane istested and rigged the need for variable rudder trim only occurs
duringlimited portions of the flight. reducing (but NOT eliminating the
riskfactor). I suppose it to be similar to the friction lock on the
throttle.Electrically activated trim systems also have a risk factor
associated withrunaway.Now with that said, I'm sure there are those that
will still beuncomfortable with a 'locked' control. There are at least
to viable springbiased designs I've seen, (Al Gardners & Jason Kreidler
plus the 'VicSyracuse solution. I'm only speculating, but
_conceptually_ I believe thatit should be possible to work with Bill's
design to achieve a variableclamping force sufficient to hold the
desired amount of trim, and stillallow for some 'breakout force' to
overcome the friction. During our discussion Bill mentioned that he had
machined/fabricated aslightly curved surface between the to clamp halves
to act in somewhat of arocker fashion to enable the clamping action. It
may mean experimenting withsome different clamping material, and
different amounts of 'curve'. Anotheridea would be to incorporate a
compression spring on the end of the otherbolt and nut. Some
epxerimenting with the size and strength of the springwould be required,
but it would allow for the clamp to 'float' undervariable
pressure????????? I've got to believe that the right combinationof
materials and camber would allow for setting enough friction to hold
thedesired trim and still override if necessary. Anybody got any
suggestions?I also believe that the use of a finer thread on the control
knob may allowfor more precise control of the clamping pressure. My 2
cents. Deems Davis # 406'Its all done....Its just not put
together'http://deemsrv10.com/ * *
http://www.matronic - MATRONICS available via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com===
================http://www.matronics.com/
c
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim |
Along these lines I feel you should at least order two rudder wedges from A
very Tools and give it a try before trying anything more drastic. =0AI neve
r believed the plane would fly centered along such a wide range of airspeed
s as it does. =0AI now have over 25 hours using two full wedges and it wor
ks great. If two wedges are too much for your aircraft simply cut them dow
n until the ball is centered, then paint and you can attach them with silic
on rubber. Just tape them on overnight with silicon and they hold great an
d are still removable if you want to do something different down the road.
=0A=0AThe rudder lock has some promise, it is much like a throttle lock on
a motorcycle that allows you to twist the throttle but takes all the press
ure off your hand.=0AIt really does not take much force to keep the ball ce
ntered. In fact with the two wedges from Avery and with the little drag tha
t the stock system has you can kick a little rudder and move the ball aroun
d in cruise flight. =0A=0AI got to fly for a couple hours with Steve Darto
n (Utah RV-10 Builder) in a new Cirrus G3 and was amazed they did not have
rudder trim.=0A=0A Scott Schmidt=0Ascottmschmidt@yahoo.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A--
--- Original Message ----=0AFrom: pascal <pascal@rv10builder.net>=0ATo: rv1
0-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 8:30:54 AM=0ASubject: Re
: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim=0A=0A =0AGood points Rene.. I think there
is some great =0Afeatures in Bill's concept.. Scott mentioned the need for
a good "rudder lock" =0ABill's serves this well. Bill has a DR plan for un
usual activity and in the =0Aend seems his concept fits his needs.=0AI am
still thinking less evasive rudder wedge at =0Athis point as Scott S has sa
id it fits his needs and it gives me the "feel" of =0Awhat works or doesn't
when I finally get the plane off the ground but I am open =0Ato ideas.=0AI
say kudos to Bill for thinking through a new =0Adesign.=0APascal=0A=0A=0AF
rom: Rene Felker =0ASent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 6:26 AM=0ATo: rv10-list@mat
ronics.com =0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim=0A=0A=93If Vans
thought it was 1: necessary 2: really useful =0A3: a great idea ...... the
n I think it would have been an option at the very =0Aleast.=94=0A =0AI cho
se to cut up my already completed rudder and install =0AVic=92s solution.
Although I have not done a lot of cross country it is nice =0Ato be able to
adjust the rudder for various speeds. You don=92t get much =0Aauthority o
ut of the trim, but it is enough to deal with the various cruise =0Aconfigu
rations.=0A =0ANow to get to the 1, 2, 3=85=85..I have not put a lot of =0A
creditability into what Vans thinks is =93necessary.=94 I flew 410RV for m
y =0Atransition training and I am under the belief that an attitude indicat
or =0Ais necessary, really useful and a great idea to have in every airplan
e, =0Aeven day VFR=85=85=85but 410RV does not have one??=0A =0AAs we march
forward in our goal to make our perfect airplane =0Aeach one of us must dec
ide what is =93necessary=94 for our flying. I know I =0Afocused on two are
as and put in a little redundancy=85.stalls and fuel. I =0Ainstalled the s
tandard stall warning, an AOA, the EFIS of course (2 ea), and a =0ATrutrak
ADI=85..they all provide stall warning. Fuel=85=85float type fuel gages,
=0Aflow meter and low fuel sensors in each tank. If I inadvertently stall
=0Athis airplane or run out of fuel=85=85=85I deserve whatever I get=85..
=0A =0ANow, as far as the rudder trim=85=85.I would say it is a great =0Aid
ea, but not necessary. I may change my mind after a few long cross =0Acoun
tries.=0A =0AI think the part of the building process I liked the most was
=0Abeing able to make the airplane fit my needs. For example, my wife can
not =0Afly above 10K without getting airsick and since I live in Utah there
are not to =0Amany places we can go and not get above 10K, so I put in a b
uilt in O2 =0Asystem. Not necessary, but a real great idea.=0A =0AThe grea
t thing about this forum is that we can freely =0Aexpress our ideas and eac
h one of us can take away what we want and need. =0APeople on the list do
not want to start =93wars=94, but I think the =93wars=94 are where =0Athe m
ost divergent of ideas are expressed. I am normally more of a lurker =0Ath
an a contributor but that is normally because the war is normally over befo
re =0AI even read the shot that started it. =0A =0AI for one, would not wan
t to =93lock=94 down my rudder cables, =0Abut that design has lead me to th
inking about other options I did not consider =0Abefore=85=85=85.on my next
plane maybe I can=85=85=85=0A =0ARene' =0AFelker=0ARV-10 =0AN423CF Flying
=0A801-721-6080=0AFrom:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owne
r-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn =0AWalters=0ASent: Tues
day, May 13, 2008 5:32 AM=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: RV10
-List: Low Tech Rudder =0ATrim=0A =0AI'm sure there will be more opposing v
iews for this comment =0A..... like mine. Sorry for the slow reply, but th
ey shut the power off =0Abecause of the fires in Palm Bay (FL). It was jus
t a hotter day for me! :-P =0ADavid McNeill wrote: =0A--> RV10-List message
posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>=0A =0AThis solution would n
ever be approved in the certified world so why would we=0Aconsider it in th
e experimental?=0ABecause that's where all the innovation is occurring. The
re hasn't been an 'original' idea in the certified aircraft (OK, I'll give
you composites and friction stir welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got i
nvolved.=0A Vic is correct that the proper way to do it=0Ais the electric t
rim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all=0Atimes with your fe
et flat on the floor.=0AProper??? Whose doing the rating??? I think 'one
=0Away' or 'a complex way' or some other description would be better than
=0A'proper'. This suggests that all other solutions are =0A'improper'.=0A
=0A=0A If you can accept using your feet=0Aduring takeoff and climb and dur
ing descent and landing then a fixed tab=0Ariveted to the rudder trailing e
dge will do the job at your standard cruise=0Aairspeed. If you want to be d
river try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots=0Ause their feet. We have set
tled on the rudder fixed trim tab.=0A =0AWell, good for you. I, for one,
don't want to be an =0Aaeronautical engineer nor test pilot, nor play one o
n TV because TV is a =0Apossible place to end up when the test pilot finds
out that that extra mass of =0Athe moveable rudder trim effected the flutt
er speed. If Vans thought it =0Awas 1: necessary 2: really useful 3: a gr
eat idea ...... then I think it =0Awould have been an option at the very le
ast. Don't get me wrong here, this =0Aisn't a flame ..... just another poi
nt of view. I don't have enough =0Aexperience to know how many four place
airplanes in our size/weight category =0Ahave or don't have rudder trim. I
do know that the few four place =0Aairplanes I've flown didn't have rudder
trim. Now I'm in the spot of =0Atrying to decide whether I want to cut u
p my already-completed rudder to install =0Arudder trim. Along with trying
to figure out what I want in the =0Apanel.=0A=0ABack in a minute .... I ne
ed something for my migraine!!! :-\ =0ALinn=0Ado not archive .... too =0Aop
inionated=0A=0A=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-s
erver@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Beha
lf Of Deems Davis=0ASent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:44 PM=0ATo: rv10-list@matr
onics.com=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim=0A =0A--> RV10-Li
st message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>=0A =0AI wouldn't di
scard the idea/design too soon. Bill and I also discussed the=0A'locking' i
ssue. He's well aware of it. I believe he said that in his=0Aadmittedly li
mited experience flying with it, that he felt that the ability=0Ato 'unlock
' the control was so direct and immediate as to make it less of a=0Arisk/co
ncern for him. Additionally, I would expect that after your plane is=0Atest
ed and rigged the need for variable rudder trim only occurs during=0Alimit
ed portions of the flight. reducing (but NOT eliminating the risk=0Afactor)
. I suppose it to be similar to the friction lock on the throttle.=0AElect
rically activated trim systems also have a risk factor associated with=0Aru
naway.=0ANow with that said, I'm sure there are those that will still be=0A
uncomfortable with a 'locked' control. There are at least to viable spring
=0Abiased designs I've seen, (Al Gardners & Jason Kreidler plus the 'Vic=0A
Syracuse solution. I'm only speculating, but _conceptually_ I believe that
=0Ait should be possible to work with Bill's design to achieve a variable
=0Aclamping force sufficient to hold the desired amount of trim, and still
=0Aallow for some 'breakout force' to overcome the friction. =0ADuring our
discussion Bill mentioned that he had machined/fabricated a=0Aslightly curv
ed surface between the to clamp halves to act in somewhat of a=0Arocker fas
hion to enable the clamping action. It may mean experimenting with=0Asome d
ifferent clamping material, and different amounts of 'curve'. Another=0Aide
a would be to incorporate a compression spring on the end of the other=0Abo
lt and nut. Some epxerimenting with the size and strength of the spring=0Aw
ould be required, but it would allow for the clamp to 'float' under=0Avaria
ble pressure????????? I've got to believe that the right combination=0Aof
materials and camber would allow for setting enough friction to hold the=0A
desired trim and still override if necessary. Anybody got any suggestions?
=0AI also believe that the use of a finer thread on the control knob may al
low=0Afor more precise control of the clamping pressure.=0A =0AMy 2 cents.
=0A =0ADeems Davis # 406=0A'Its all done....Its just not put together'=0Ah
ttp://deemsrv10.com/=0A =0A =0A =0A*=0A =0A*=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A
=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronic
=0A- MATRONICS available via the Web =0Ahref="http://forums.matron
ics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ============
======= http://www.matronics.com/c==0A =0A=0A=0Ahref="ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Naviga
tor?RV10-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronic
s.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics
=========================0A
======
Message 11
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| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
All-
Just thinking overnight about the major issue of breaking force. Intuitively
it seems very solvable.
I have already installed a small trim tab on my rudder set to cruise. As all
those flying know with the weight shifting around, differential elevator trim
trying to roll the plane when the tab trailing edges are at different height,
nose wheel not centered - these create differences that only a variable trim can
solve. But once a fixed trim tab is set to cruise then the forces necessary
to center the ball are fairly light compared to a leg on the pedal. In my experience
the force necessary to move the ball 75% of the ball diameter would be
sufficient.
It would seem that replacing the big screw with an over the center lever retracting
a rod with an adjustable spring that pulls the blocks together would do
the trick. It needs some experimenting to get the pull distance and spring style
correct. The downside is we give up the gust lock feature.
Jason may be able to add to the implementation with his single point concept
which reduces my approach to one lever.
Given no better ideas at this point, this is the direction I will pursue for
Revision B.
Others are welcome to purchase a block of nylon and give it a go!
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
"Mike Doble (Home Office)" <mikedoble@wi.rr.com> wrote:
Interesting idea. Just a note, the Cessna 400 (former Columbia
400) has a rudder hold switch next to the flap lever. I flew the 400 twice last
week for a total of about an hour and the rudder hold seems to work nice.
How did they do it? Anyone know?
Mike
Do not archive
Mike Doble
Builder 40691
Working on my tail.....STILL
Waukesha, Wisconsin
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim
After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while
to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex designs
using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.
Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is cutting
into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab. This approach
has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always override the
rudder trim. Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in the list because
it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be elegant in its
simplicity.
I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less proper
engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder cable nylon
fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch the cable when
a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my feet then pinch one
or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are some tricks to get this
very simple design to work properly.
The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get caught
with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to handle
it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when beginning decent.
As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet instantly sensed the
lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind learned how to react immediately.
My feet feel they are pushing against a brick wall and the release
knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically, only one of the knobs are tightened.
Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great gust
lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw ball was
centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose when I encountered
turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We yawed around a
bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing diminshed about 80%
and reduced my piloting effort. In the future, I do not know if I will lock
the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more experimentation in this
situation.
The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right. After
these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut (AN366F
style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without removing
the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block thickness to 3/8"
to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Probably should have been
5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together
and drill an 1/8" hole through the mating surface. Then mill the thick block
with the half hole surface down .015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion
with the cable as its fulcrum to create the pinching force.
The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by
maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is not
noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind does
adapt.
Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a delightful
afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.
Bill and Sara DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
Message 12
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| Subject: | Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California |
Well I am about to pull the trigger and order a RV 10 Tail kit. But I would
really like to see one in person and possible get a flight in one, before I
commit to the project.
I am currently flying a Citabria and Saratoga out of the Nut Tree Airport In
Vacaville Ca. So I am able to travel to visit.
Your welcome to contact me off list of you like.
Thanks
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California |
I am at SCK contact at pilotdds@aol.com-working on #2??????????????? 728DD-175hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: John Cumins <jcumins@jcis.net>
Sent: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:18 am
Subject: RV10-List: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California
Well I am about to pull the trigger and order a RV 10 Tail kit.? But I would really
like to see one in person and possible get a flight in one, before I commit
to the project.
?
I am currently flying a Citabria and Saratoga out of the Nut Tree Airport In Vacaville
Ca. So I am able to travel to visit.
?
Your welcome to contact me off list of you like.
?
Thanks
?
John G. Cumins
President
?
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
?
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
?
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim - Spring Bias |
jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> A few response rolled into one.
>
> "so why not a small jackscrew instead of a trim servo?"
> If I could find something light, inexpensive, and simple, it would
> certainly be an option. Anyone have a source?
I'll google and see what I can find ..... after all, it was my suggestion.
>
> "What kinds of problems have been seen with the glued tab or the
> riveted tab other than it has only a cruise airspeed setting?"
None that I know of. I'm operating in the dark here so just giving it
some thought ..... the fixed trim works best at one cruise speed ....
and at one density altitude .....
> Absolutely no problems at all, rudder trim may not be high on some
> lists, but it is on mine. The fixed trim offers great benefit
> (extremely simple), at of course a price (fixed trim). I know others
> have decided not to install trim, still others have cut into a
> perfectly good painted rudder to add trim. Like any option it is a
> personal choice.
Absolutely. That is, I guess, the crux of my problem ..... the decision
on what path to go is purely subjective on the part of the builder
taking that path. I felt that any good autopilot should be able to
handle the trim problem, but others tell me the autopilot will either
disconnect or the servo's will, at swome point, lock up or slip.
> "Since servo force required is an issue, have you considered a totally
> manual/mechanical system?"
> Yes, just haven't found a cute, light way of doing it. However,
> electric means it can be buried in any orientation at any location,
> opening up more mounting options. A manual system would be a real
> benefit, as I know a few are looking for a manual system.
A simple solution is hampered by the fact the pedals flop. the closed
loop solution (below) really makes the difficult part go away.
> "I think this could be made to work in the same way that my garage
> door tensioner works."
> This would be an great approach, the question is where to get
> something like this?
>
> The great thing about sharing ideas is the collaboration. Many of us
> have obviously been thinking of different approaches to this
> 'problem'. In looking over Bill DeRouchey's approach I got to
> thinking...
>
> I think the secret to making this really simple is to start with a
> completely closed loop system. So what would happen if we mounted a
> pulley to the firewall centered between the left and right rudder
> pedals on either the pilot or copilot side of the aircraft. Then
> connect a cable to the two pedals routed through the pulley. This
> gets us a closed loop system.
>
> Next we use Bill's concept, with a few changes. Since we now have a
> closed loop, we only need to act on one of the rudder cables. So
> instead of clamping the cable, we clamp two springs to the cable
> (about 12 inches apart), these two springs are then hooked in the
> middle to the knob that passes through the tunnel wall. The tunnel
> wall is slotted, allowing the knob to move fore and aft. So to adjust
> the trim you would loosen the knob slide it back until you center the
> ball, then re-tighten the knob. The springs would still allow full
> use of the rudder, and the world is in perfect harmony. Well, at
> least the ball is in the center.
>
> I wonder if the cable needs to be supported between the springs, I
> keep thinking that the springs would just want to pull together
> leaving the cable slack between the springs. Maybe since the system
> is now closed, the two trim springs would act as a 'slack take-up'.
> Also, not sure if there is enough room to fit the forward spring, and
> still keep the knob where it can be reached.
>
> What I like is the fact that we can now have either manual or electric
> trim. In addition this certainly meets the simple, and relatively
> easy to install criteria. Any thoughts?
A simple (in my mind, anyway) would be to make the rudder system closed
loop. This will allow the two-springs on one cable possible. Next we
put the end of a vernier control cable on the center of the two springs
..... and we can adjust the tension on the springs to bias the rudder.
How well it works is dependent on the tension and length of the
springs. I have to admit I'm not a fan of the 'gripped cable' mod but I
do admire it's simplicity.
Linn
do not archive
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - #40617 - Finishing
> 4 Partner Build
> Jason Kreidler, Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, and Wayne Elsner
> Sheboygan Falls, WI
> *
>
>
> *
Message 15
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| Subject: | NW RV-10 Builders and Flyers Dinner |
John and others have mentioned our recent RV-10 dinner. Here is a picture
of the whole group who attended the NW RV-10 Builders and Flyers Dinner last
Saturday, the 10th. We had 6 completed RV-10's on hand, and close to 50
people show up. Getting bigger each time.
A huge thank-you to the Hickman's (Rob, Jenny and family) for hosting this
event. Wonderful folks.
I will put together a write up and more pictures in a few days.
John Jessen
40328
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 8:04 PM
Subject: RV10-List: NW Builder Dinner
In addition to Tim James exciting VSTOL RV-10 with VGs, bush tires, dual
puck brake calipers and other mods like his Chrome Moly Roll Bar, Paul
Grimstad brought his re-engineered and ready to move Rudder Pedal Kit.
those beauties bolt right up and allow a direct change-out of the VANS
(right down to the ole Matco cylinders). No more rats nest or spider web of
ugly brake cables and fluid lines. the cables never leave the tunnel. the
fluid lines are forward of your feet. Take a look at those pedals "RV 10".
I would have made another mod to the Grove cylinders but then I never stop
tinkering with what is for many of you an already Great Kit. Here is a
picture I stole while they were sleeping on Rob's bench. I believe they are
reserved for Deems/
John Cox
#600
<<Pauls new Pedals.pdf>>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 |
If memory serves me right I was only getting 2500 RPM. I had to reset my
arm one spline. I made a reference mark, took the screw adjustment up to
close to the reference mark, and then screwed it out each flight, until
I got to the desired RPM.
Dave Emond
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Sked
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5
David,
I don't know if this will help but this was the response I got from MT
about setting the governor and low speed RPM.
Rick Sked
40185
"All P-860-( ) governors are basically the same. The - ( ) number only
refers
to the control arm position and the max. rpm of the governor. To
change the
control arm, loosen the 6 screws, turn the entire center portion to
the
desired position, tighten the 6 screws and safety.
To change max rpm the set screw on the high rpm stop is turned
counterclockwise (out) to increase rpm and clockwise (in) to decrease
rpm.
If there is not enough adjustment possible ( 1 turn = 25 rpm) the
control
arm must be reset on the spline one notch at the time.
All this can be done on the plane.
To have MT Propeller USA, Inc. modify the governor max. rpm would cost
approx. $100.00, unfortunately the control arm position must be
adjusted on
the plane"
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 3:55:37 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5
Did anyone have to adjust the low pitch stop on the prop from Van's to
get the 2700 RPM? or was the entire adjustment in the governor?
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 17
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| Subject: | Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California |
John,
There are three flying here at Watsonville. Give me a call, I'd be happy to
show you around.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:19 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California
Well I am about to pull the trigger and order a RV 10 Tail kit. But I would
really like to see one in person and possible get a flight in one, before I
commit to the project.
I am currently flying a Citabria and Saratoga out of the Nut Tree Airport In
Vacaville Ca. So I am able to travel to visit.
Your welcome to contact me off list of you like.
Thanks
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
Message 18
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| Subject: | Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California |
Dave
Thanks for the offer I just might take you up on it.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern
California
John,
There are three flying here at Watsonville. Give me a call, I'd be happy to
show you around.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:19 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California
Well I am about to pull the trigger and order a RV 10 Tail kit. But I would
really like to see one in person and possible get a flight in one, before I
commit to the project.
I am currently flying a Citabria and Saratoga out of the Nut Tree Airport In
Vacaville Ca. So I am able to travel to visit.
Your welcome to contact me off list of you like.
Thanks
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 19
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| Subject: | Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California |
Come to Ogden Utah and I will give you a ride as long as you don't comment
about my piloting skills...my unfinished airplane...or my heritage. But, I
think you might be able to find something closer...
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 11:19 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California
Well I am about to pull the trigger and order a RV 10 Tail kit. But I would
really like to see one in person and possible get a flight in one, before I
commit to the project.
I am currently flying a Citabria and Saratoga out of the Nut Tree Airport In
Vacaville Ca. So I am able to travel to visit.
Your welcome to contact me off list of you like.
Thanks
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
Message 20
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| Subject: | Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California |
Rene'
I was just in Salt lake last week. I work with a software company there.
If I make it back there this summer I will look you up that's for sure.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern
California
Come to Ogden Utah and I will give you a ride as long as you don't comment
about my piloting skills...my unfinished airplane...or my heritage. But, I
think you might be able to find something closer...
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 11:19 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Any rv-10 flying or being built in Northern California
Well I am about to pull the trigger and order a RV 10 Tail kit. But I would
really like to see one in person and possible get a flight in one, before I
commit to the project.
I am currently flying a Citabria and Saratoga out of the Nut Tree Airport In
Vacaville Ca. So I am able to travel to visit.
Your welcome to contact me off list of you like.
Thanks
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Low Tech Rudder Trim |
All-
Just thinking overnight about the major issue of breaking force. Intuitively
it seems very solvable.
I have already installed a small trim tab on my rudder set to cruise. As all
those flying know with the weight shifting around, differential elevator trim
trying to roll the plane when the tab trailing edges are at different height,
nose wheel not centered - these create differences that only a variable trim can
solve. But once a fixed trim tab is set to cruise then the forces necessary
to center the ball are fairly light compared to a leg on the pedal. In my experience
the force necessary to move the ball 75% of the ball diameter would be
sufficient.
It would seem that replacing the big screw with an over the center lever retracting
a rod with an adjustable spring that pulls the blocks together would do
the trick. It needs some experimenting to get the pull distance and spring style
correct. The downside is we give up the gust lock feature.
Jason may be able to add to the implementation with his single point concept
which reduces my approach to one lever.
Given no better ideas at this point, this is the direction I will pursue for
Revision B.
Others are welcome to purchase a block of nylon and give it a go!
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 |
I believe all the 10's I built where around 2550-2600 out of the box, I just mark
the arm and shaft and move the arm one spline.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183043#183043
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: N46007 Phase I complete |
Congrats! Don't forget to make your logbook entry per Operating Limitation
s.
Anh
N591VU-flying
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:31 PM
Subject: RV10-List: N46007 Phase I complete
N46007 completed Phase one this morning; CHTs are settling; now all betwe
en 340-380 at low cruise (130 KIAS) I would expect that there will be furth
er cooling for a given power setting when we get the wheel pants and leg fa
irings installed. I would expect another 10 KIAS at least for a given power
setting. Have leaned EGTs to the 1350-11400 range and have fuel flow down
in the 11-12 gph range. The injectors seem to pretty evenly matched as the
EGT range for a given setting is less than 20 degrees. Will have to re-inde
x the prop governor arm as do not get more than 2600 rpm at any time. Alrea
dy tried adjusting the low pitch stop on the prop. Plan to place some insul
ation on the lower cowl to prevent deliberation from exhaust heat radiation
Do not have a hot tunnel at all. attribute this to good sealing (with baf
fling material and rtv) of the cabin heat valves. Full flap landings at for
ward CG require a good pull on the stick unless there is a lot of up trim a
lready set. Largest direct crosswind encountered was 10 kts. Landing was fi
ne with 1/3 flaps and 65 KIAS on short final at 2300 lbs. Standard wing dow
n into the crosswind and rudder the aircraft straight down the runway. Chel
ton system is impressive; HITS provides guidance for the complete approach
procedure; will update the databases and software next week. Trutrak AP han
dy but the Cheltons are easy to hand fly precisely. I have the TT 2.2 softw
are and need an upgrade to 2.24 for the VNAV stuff to work properly. I did
find that the magnetometer in the DigiFlite II is not useful. After calibra
tion it is still off the Cheltons and the GRT by 10-15 degrees. Floscan tra
nsducer is very accurate; I adjusted my calibration value in the GRT EIS600
0 down from 200 to 178. I now find that the agreement between amount used a
nd actual is less than .2 gallon and this may be due to how closely I fill
the tanks. The GRT Sport backup EFIS is usually set to map (XM weather) for
flight but is on the engine page for start. With the dual battery setup al
l the avionics are perking about 2 minutes before start. They are disconnec
ted from the starting primary bus. One thing I would suggest is that the AP
should be on a toggle breaker. mine is pullable. I initially was told by t
he TT staff that starting with the AP on would not be a problem on that bus
; reading there documentation suggest a different story. The truth is somew
here between. The Trutrak AP can be ON when the aircraft is started but the
initialization sequence should be complete. Will post more later.Perhaps a
fter a trip to the paint shop and a re-weighing.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Air Compressor size |
There has been much discussion about what compressor to use on this list. Today
I toured the Boeing plant and saw their main Air line. It was 10 inches in
Diameter. Just what size compressor does it take to drive that baby.
Great tour. No I didn't get any samples.
Gary
40274
<html><body>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><U>There has been much discussion about what compressor to use on this list.
Today I toured the Boeing plant and saw their main Air line. It
was 10 inches in Diameter. Just what size compressor does it take to drive
that baby.</U></DIV>
<DIV><U></U> </DIV>
<DIV><U>Great tour. No I didn't get any samples.</U></DIV>
<DIV><U></U> </DIV>
<DIV><U>Gary</U></DIV>
<DIV><U>40274</U></DIV>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Air Compressor size |
I think it's a surplus 747-800 engine.
I took the tour once thinking I would learn something about building,
other than a whole lot of people staring at things I didn't learn much,
now in hind sight I find I myself do a whole lot of staring at things
too. Maybe I did learn something on that tour afterall.
Pascal
From: speckter@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:38 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Air Compressor size
There has been much discussion about what compressor to use on this
list. Today I toured the Boeing plant and saw their main Air line. It
was 10 inches in Diameter. Just what size compressor does it take to
drive that baby.
Great tour. No I didn't get any samples.
Gary
40274
Message 26
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I second the kudos - they do an awesome job and are very pleasant.
I forgot my ropes at home and they even supplied ropes (no charge)
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Hint to the will call folks - drive slow and the vans get dramatically better fuel
economy
--------
OSH '08 or Bust
Q/B Kit - Ready to exit cabin top/door purgatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183052#183052
Message 27
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| Subject: | N46007 Phase I complete |
Having an A&P and CFII I am well aware that the job is not done until the
paperwork is correct. Thanks.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: N46007 Phase I complete
Congrats! Don't forget to make your logbook entry per Operating
Limitations.
Anh
N591VU-flying
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:31 PM
Subject: RV10-List: N46007 Phase I complete
N46007 completed Phase one this morning; CHTs are settling; now all between
340-380 at low cruise (130 KIAS) I would expect that there will be further
cooling for a given power setting when we get the wheel pants and leg
fairings installed. I would expect another 10 KIAS at least for a given
power setting. Have leaned EGTs to the 1350-11400 range and have fuel flow
down in the 11-12 gph range. The injectors seem to pretty evenly matched as
the EGT range for a given setting is less than 20 degrees. Will have to
re-index the prop governor arm as do not get more than 2600 rpm at any time.
Already tried adjusting the low pitch stop on the prop. Plan to place some
insulation on the lower cowl to prevent deliberation from exhaust heat
radiation. Do not have a hot tunnel at all. attribute this to good sealing
(with baffling material and rtv) of the cabin heat valves. Full flap
landings at forward CG require a good pull on the stick unless there is a
lot of up trim already set. Largest direct crosswind encountered was 10 kts.
Landing was fine with 1/3 flaps and 65 KIAS on short final at 2300 lbs.
Standard wing down into the crosswind and rudder the aircraft straight down
the runway. Chelton system is impressive; HITS provides guidance for the
complete approach procedure; will update the databases and software next
week. Trutrak AP handy but the Cheltons are easy to hand fly precisely. I
have the TT 2.2 software and need an upgrade to 2.24 for the VNAV stuff to
work properly. I did find that the magnetometer in the DigiFlite II is not
useful. After calibration it is still off the Cheltons and the GRT by 10-15
degrees. Floscan transducer is very accurate; I adjusted my calibration
value in the GRT EIS6000 down from 200 to 178. I now find that the agreement
between amount used and actual is less than .2 gallon and this may be due to
how closely I fill the tanks. The GRT Sport backup EFIS is usually set to
map (XM weather) for flight but is on the engine page for start. With the
dual battery setup all the avionics are perking about 2 minutes before
start. They are disconnected from the starting primary bus One thing I would
suggest is that the AP should be on a toggle breaker. mine is pullable. I
initially was told by the TT staff that starting with the AP on would not be
a problem on that bus; reading there documentation suggest a different
story. The truth is somewhere between. The Trutrak AP can be ON when the
aircraft is started but the initialization sequence should be complete. Will
post more later.Perhaps after a trip to the paint shop and a re-weighing.
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ics.com
matronics.com/contribution
Message 28
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| Subject: | Ailereon Bellcrank bolt - safety note |
I just finished fitting out the aileron bellcrank assembly (rt wing) for the TruTrak
autopilot. With the TruTrak bracket mounted which doubles the metal on
the top of the bellcrank bracket. (See pg 23-4) I find that the AN4-32A bolt
is too short to catch the nylock part of the #4 bolt.
I checked the bolt scale supplied by vans and it seems that a AN4-33A
should give enough thread to catch the Nylock part of the bolt threads.
It is interesting that TruTrak did not mention this in their excellent installation
diagrams. Has anyone else had the same issue? It would be disastrous to
loose this bolt in flight.
--------
OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09
Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183055#183055
Message 29
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Hi
Another hint - avoid ethanol gas blends - I found I took a big gas mileage
hit when I filled up with an E10 blend.
Using a 17' U-Hail I was told to expect 12mpg. This is what I got even when
in the mountains after the E10 was burned off. I was driving 60mph+ for the
1,100 miles back to Edmonton. Going slower was not an option.
Cheers
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AirMike
Sent: May-13-08 9:38 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Kudos
I second the kudos - they do an awesome job and are very pleasant.
I forgot my ropes at home and they even supplied ropes (no charge)
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Hint to the will call folks - drive slow and the vans get dramatically
better fuel economy
--------
OSH '08 or Bust
Q/B Kit - Ready to exit cabin top/door purgatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183052#183052
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 |
If Van's Aircraft sold the P-860-5 governor for the wide deck Lycoming IO-540 engine,
you wouldn't even be having this discussion.
The P-860-3 governor is for the narrow deck Lycoming IO-540 engine, which has a
different gear ratio to the front mounted governor.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: raddatz <n667sr@comcast.net>
Sent: Tue, 13 May 2008 7:12 pm
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5
I believe all the 10's I built where around 2550-2600 out of the box, I just
mark the arm and shaft and move the arm one spline.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183043#183043
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5 |
Yup.....Jim has the correct info in that!! No surprise. Curious.....How man
y narrow decks are out there?...ummmm NOT MANY!!=C2- It's a Dutch think I
think, and an ignorance thing on us builders...not so ignorant now though.
Rick Sked
40185
----- Original Message -----
From: lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 9:36:52 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5
If Van's Aircraft sold the P-860-5 governor for the wide deck Lycoming IO-5
40 engine, you wouldn't even be having this discussion.
The P-860-3 governor is for the narrow deck Lycoming IO-540 engine, which h
as a different gear ratio to the front mounted governor.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: raddatz <n667sr@comcast.net>
Sent: Tue, 13 May 2008 7:12 pm
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Hartzell prop and IO540D4A5
all the 10's I built where around 2550-2600 out of the box, I just mark th
e arm and shaft and move the arm one spline. Read this topic online here: h
ttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183043#183043
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