---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/04/08: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:55 AM - Re: Exhaust fitting problem (Tim Olson) 2. 05:07 AM - Re: Exhaust fitting problem (Jesse Saint) 3. 05:44 AM - Re: Exhaust fitting problem (David McNeill) 4. 06:31 AM - J Channel & Bulkheads (John Testement) 5. 07:14 AM - Re: J Channel & Bulkheads (linn Walters) 6. 07:38 AM - Re: J Channel & Bulkheads (PJ Seipel) 7. 09:08 AM - Re: Exhaust fitting problem (Jim Berry) 8. 03:28 PM - OT - Explain This (Jesse Saint) 9. 03:44 PM - Re: OT - Explain This (Chris and Susie McGough) 10. 04:02 PM - Re: Exhaust fitting problem (McGANN, Ron) 11. 04:02 PM - Re: OT - Explain This (SteinAir, Inc.) 12. 04:29 PM - Re: OT - Explain This (Kelly McMullen) 13. 04:50 PM - Re: J Channel & Bulkheads (Tim Olson) 14. 04:56 PM - Re: OT - Explain This (John Gonzalez) 15. 05:22 PM - Re: OT - Explain This (Sam) 16. 09:55 PM - SlilckStart Troubleshooting (Dave Saylor) 17. 10:50 PM - Re: OT - Explain This (Robin Marks) 18. 11:20 PM - Re: HOUR TOTAL ON DOORS (AirMike) 19. 11:30 PM - Re: OT - Explain This (Chris and Susie McGough) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:40 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Exhaust fitting problem Ron, I'd say if you've spent a couple hours on it and you haven't had luck, and you actually think you see something that doesn't look correct, I'd just call and ask for a new exhaust manifold. I know, you're far away, so that's a pain, but I'm sure you can get satisfaction on the parts....even if you have to send the old one back to the place that makes them. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive McGANN, Ron wrote: > G'day all, > > After 4.25 years of building and having everything fit beautifully, I > finally get to the very last set of plans (FF-6 Exhaust installation). > Install the right side first, still amazed at how everything 'just > fits'. Finished the routing of the alternator and starter wires and > pulled out the last piece of the kit that was left - the left hand > exhaust manifold. > > There is no way that this puppy will fit. The riser for #2 cylinder > seems to have been welded incorrectly and there is nowhere near enough > adjustment to have the stack fit the exhaust ports. > > Has anyone else experienced this or am I SOL, right at the finish line?? > > Thanks in advance for any responses - no 'cheers' today ;-< > > Ron > 187 hobbled at the end > > > "Warning: > The information contained in this email and any attached files is > confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended > recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any > attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email > in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been > taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, > however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the > sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus > checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to > your computer." > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:00 AM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: Re: RV10-List: Exhaust fitting problem Can you take a picture holding it up to the engine so we can see any possible differences between it and ours? That may help somebody actually see by comparison where it seems wrong. I'm pretty sure Vetterman mounts them to an engine for welding, but can't say for sure. do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:54 AM, McGANN, Ron wrote: > G'day all, > > After 4.25 years of building and having everything fit beautifully, > I finally get to the very last set of plans (FF-6 Exhaust > installation). Install the right side first, still amazed at how > everything 'just fits'. Finished the routing of the alternator and > starter wires and pulled out the last piece of the kit that was left > - the left hand exhaust manifold. > > There is no way that this puppy will fit. The riser for #2 cylinder > seems to have been welded incorrectly and there is nowhere near > enough adjustment to have the stack fit the exhaust ports. > > Has anyone else experienced this or am I SOL, right at the finish > line?? > > Thanks in advance for any responses - no 'cheers' today ;-< > > Ron > 187 hobbled at the end > > > "Warning: > The information contained in this email and any attached files is > confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended > recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any > attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email > in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been > taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, > however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the > sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus > checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to > your computer." > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:23 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Exhaust fitting problem Welding , although an important skill, is not rocket science. If you are convinced of a mistake was made your best bet is to have it corrected locally. IIRC there was a mistake in mine and I noticed it well before the end game. The welding contractor repaired the product but lost my address. One day when wondering why it never returned I called them and gave them my info again. Given your distance I suggest you have an aircraft certified welder do it there. I would expect that Vans or Aircraft Exhaust Technologies would provide compensation. Just send them a good digital picture of the problem. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:54 PM Subject: RV10-List: Exhaust fitting problem G'day all, After 4.25 years of building and having everything fit beautifully, I finally get to the very last set of plans (FF-6 Exhaust installation). Install the right side first, still amazed at how everything 'just fits'. Finished the routing of the alternator and starter wires and pulled out the last piece of the kit that was left - the left hand exhaust manifold. There is no way that this puppy will fit. The riser for #2 cylinder seems to have been welded incorrectly and there is nowhere near enough adjustment to have the stack fit the exhaust ports. Has anyone else experienced this or am I SOL, right at the finish line?? Thanks in advance for any responses - no 'cheers' today ;-< Ron 187 hobbled at the end "Warning: The information contained in this email and any attached files is confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to your computer." ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:10 AM PST US From: "John Testement" Subject: RV10-List: J Channel & Bulkheads I have had an interesting comment by both an A&P and and RV6 builder while looking over my plane. They pointed out that in the tailcone the edges of the J channels touch the bulkhead cutouts. They were concerned that the contact under vibration could create a crack in the bulkheads. They both suggested that I bend the J channel edges down to prevent the contact. This seems like a lot of work (especially in the tight tailcone). I am wondering if anyone else has been concerned about this or has bothered to bend J channels. Is there a building standard about contact between parts like this? John Testement HYPERLINK "mailto:jwt@roadmapscoaching.com"jwt@roadmapscoaching.com 40321 Richmond, VA Painting and final assembly Checked by AVG. 7:00 AM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:03 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: J Channel & Bulkheads That's a tough one! In my mind (may not be a good thing :-P ) any wear will become an 'interference fit' and won't be sharp-edged. The wear pattern would be smooth, like a fine file. and wouldn't be a source of stress cracks. If there was pressure to the face of the bulkhead, then I may see it a little differently. A little, little differently. Your buddy has good eyes, though!!! Linn YMMV do not archive John Testement wrote: > I have had an interesting comment by both an A&P and and RV6 builder > while looking over my plane. They pointed out that in the tailcone the > edges of the J channels touch the bulkhead cutouts. They were > concerned that the contact under vibration could create a crack in the > bulkheads. They both suggested that I bend the J channel edges down to > prevent the contact. This seems like a lot of work (especially in the > tight tailcone). I am wondering if anyone else has been concerned > about this or has bothered to bend J channels. Is there a building > standard about contact between parts like this? > > John Testement > jwt@roadmapscoaching.com > 40321 > Richmond, VA > Painting and final assembly ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:32 AM PST US From: PJ Seipel Subject: Re: RV10-List: J Channel & Bulkheads I noticed it during construction and filed the holes in the bulkheads a little bigger so they didn't touch. Not sure if it is/was necessary though. PJ Seipel RV-10 #40032 John Testement wrote: > I have had an interesting comment by both an A&P and and RV6 builder > while looking over my plane. They pointed out that in the tailcone the > edges of the J channels touch the bulkhead cutouts. They were > concerned that the contact under vibration could create a crack in the > bulkheads. They both suggested that I bend the J channel edges down to > prevent the contact. This seems like a lot of work (especially in the > tight tailcone). I am wondering if anyone else has been concerned > about this or has bothered to bend J channels. Is there a building > standard about contact between parts like this? > > John Testement > jwt@roadmapscoaching.com > 40321 > Richmond, VA > Painting and final assembly > > > > > Checked by AVG. > 6/3/2008 7:00 AM > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:51 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Exhaust fitting problem From: "Jim Berry" Ron, I just did this step a couple of months ago, and at first I could not see any way it was going to fit. By leaving the exhaust stud nuts very loose I was able to get an approximate fit of the pipes into the collector. Snugged down the nuts a little at a time, and it all came together. If yours doesn't work that way I would ask Van's for a new one, as Tim suggested. Jim Berry 40482 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186233#186233 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:09 PM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Can anybody explain why I can put diesel in my truck at the gas station for $4.80/gal and can put JetA in my plane (assuming I have a turbine) for $4.57? do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:15 PM PST US From: "Chris and Susie McGough" Subject: Re: RV10-List: OT - Explain This I wish fuel for either was that cheap here, mind you would not want to live in the UK with there prices double what ours are here in Aus regards Chris Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Jesse Saint To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 8:22 AM Subject: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Can anybody explain why I can put diesel in my truck at the gas station for $4.80/gal and can put JetA in my plane (assuming I have a turbine) for $4.57? do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:33 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Exhaust fitting problem From: "McGANN, Ron" Hi Guys, I received a response from Larry Vetterman overnight as follows: "Ron, this system was built on a Lycoming so it will fit and in fact it was placed on the engine to check for final fit. I do believe that you have got the pipes out of alignment by moving the ball joints which is forward and rear movement and then sideways also which can be checked by alignment or mis alignment of the connecting links on pipes 2 and 6 and also on the collector. Start over by mounting each individual pipe with out the collector and align #2 and #6 with #4 . #4 is the only ridgid pipe so align to it. when they all line up you can loosen the nuts on the flanges and slide the collector part way on. then align the connecting links if need. Try this as the pipes do not need trimmed the #4 gives your forward and rear placement. Larry" I checked my manifold last night before I received Larry's email and it appears he is spot on the money. The ball joint (or slip joint) on the #2 (ie forward) riser was jammed and out of position - I would have sworn that it was welded in place and not meant to move. After much huffing and puffing and a considerable amount of lubricant/penetrant (gotta get some 'Mouse Milk'), the joint finally loosened. I haven't tried to re-instal yet, but it looks like that was the problem. So for those yet to get to this point, the pipe joints that look like they should move really do move, and may need to be lubricated. The key to correct alignment is the middle riser (#4). I would have loved to have seen Larry's response before I started the installation - would have saved some grief so present it here for the archives. So it looks like I now only have one issue - thinking that I am at the finish line (thanks heaps Robin!!) Cheers, Ron 187 up and running again "Warning: The information contained in this email and any attached files is confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to your computer." ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:41 PM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Simple....taxes! -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:23 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Can anybody explain why I can put diesel in my truck at the gas station for $4.80/gal and can put JetA in my plane (assuming I have a turbine) for $4.57? do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:29 PM PST US From: "Kelly McMullen" Subject: Re: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Road use tax. Just about the difference between the two. I just put diesel in my VW at the nearest truck stop...$4.59. However, just drove from NJ to AZ, and saw some places with diesel over $5. It has to be killing both the truckers and the airlines, with prices about double what they paid 12 months ago. On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Jesse Saint wrote: > Can anybody explain why I can put diesel in my truck at the gas station for > $4.80/gal and can put JetA in my plane (assuming I have a turbine) for > $4.57? > do not archive > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > jesse@saintaviation.com > Cell: 352-427-0285 > Fax: 815-377-3694 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:34 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: J Channel & Bulkheads If you bend the J-channel, it will lose strength. The best way to fix it is to file some gap into the bulkhead cutouts and then deburr it. Yes, it's a lot of work, but the person/people who told you they were worried about cracking are correct. Letting things "wear in" just isn't right. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive John Testement wrote: > I have had an interesting comment by both an A&P and and RV6 builder > while looking over my plane. They pointed out that in the tailcone the > edges of the J channels touch the bulkhead cutouts. They were concerned > that the contact under vibration could create a crack in the bulkheads. > They both suggested that I bend the J channel edges down to prevent the > contact. This seems like a lot of work (especially in the tight > tailcone). I am wondering if anyone else has been concerned about this > or has bothered to bend J channels. Is there a building standard about > contact between parts like this? > > John Testement > jwt@roadmapscoaching.com > 40321 > Richmond, VA > Painting and final assembly > > > > Checked by AVG. > 6/3/2008 7:00 AM > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:06 PM PST US From: John Gonzalez Subject: RE: RV10-List: OT - Explain This MOre importantly, the airlines are paying $3.47 a gallon for jet A. Yah, Ya h, bulk volume discounts. What else???? From: jesse@saintaviation.comTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RV10-List: OT - Explain ThisDate: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:22:38 -0400Can anybody explain w hy I can put diesel in my truck at the gas station for $4.80/gal and can pu t JetA in my plane (assuming I have a turbine) for $4.57? do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:36 PM PST US From: Sam Subject: Re: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Well Jesse, I might be able to explane. The gas stations pump a lot of Gas, and have limited storage. The price /should/ only change, when the tanks are filled. The tankers can only carry 8,000 gallons a load. With todays frequent fluctuation's, and high volume sales, that means every few days, and in some cases every day, they receive a tanker load, and are subject to price change, up or down. Now, back to airports, they sometimes have as much as half a million gallon storage tanks, filled by barge, rail car, or pipeline. They fill their tanks less frequently, so prices can be slower to change. When you buy a load of fuel, as a dealer, you pay before the driver drops his load in your tanks. Sometimes, an FBO will raise his price, before his next load, just because he can. It's a free market system, you can charge whatever you want. I hope I didn't ramble to much, does this makes sense? Former FBO Sam Marlow RV10/ #40157 Jesse Saint wrote: > Can anybody explain why I can put diesel in my truck at the gas > station for $4.80/gal and can put JetA in my plane (assuming I have a > turbine) for $4.57? > > do not archive > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > jesse@saintaviation.com > Cell: 352-427-0285 > Fax: 815-377-3694 > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:27 PM PST US From: "Dave Saylor" Subject: RV10-List: SlilckStart Troubleshooting If your SlickStart doesn't seem to be starting so slick, read on. Our RV-10 developed a starting problem in that in suddenly becare VERY difficult to start. For 130 hours it had been starting quite nicely, but the last time I tired, I just had to give up. N921AC has two slick mags, one with retard points on the left, and a SlickStart solid state starting module, essentially a newer version of the Shower of Sparks system. I went through all the normal troubleshooting and figured the problem must be the SlickStart module. I wasn't getting any spark at the plug with the SlickStart powered up and the retard points in firing position. I called Unison just to make sure I was checking the right things, and they confirmed it had to be the SlickStart. So I changed it. No help. I checked as many things as I could think of: timing, p-leads, harness, fuse, grounds.. I knew the points were opening because my timing box was indicating OK. I knew the mag was basically sound because when we had managed to get it started (I won't go into how...), it ran fine with a normal mag drop. I finally gave up and sent the mag and both SlickStarts (old one and new one) to LyCon, where I got my engine. They put it on their magneto bench, and came up with the following explanation. This is somewhat untested, but it makes sense and all the evidence >>points<< to it. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Ken at LyCon explained to me that the capacitor had failed, and in so doing had caused the frame of the points (both sets, I guess), to get warm enough to accelerate the wear of the cam follower. So, both points were technically opening, but just barely enough to trip the timing light. Maybe .001 or .002 inches instead of .012 or more. That does make sense, because one of the first things I did was to check the mag timing, and I found it had advanced about 10 degrees, to about 15 BTC on the main points and about 10 past TC on the retard points. I just reset the timing and went on troubleshooting. As the cam follower wears, it retards the spark. Part of the SlickStart troubleshooting says to look for ~300 volts from the output. If the points were barely opening, I think that 300 volts would be able to jump the gap and essentially ground through the retard points instead of exciting the primary coil. I installed my old mag after LyCon replaced boths sets of points and the capacitor, and it worked fine. So the upshot is, if the SlickStart troubleshooting points to a bad module, it's probably worth physically checking the point gap with a feeler gauge, instead of just with the timing box before you replace the module. In retrospect I wish Unison would have suggested that. Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 831-722-9141 831-750-0284 CL www.AirCraftersLLC.com 135 hours ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:01 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: OT - Explain This From: "Robin Marks" The corner gas station situation is more complicated than limited storage. In most brand name locations (I have very close ties to two Shell stations) the station owners have zero say in fuel deliveries. All the handling, receipt of payments, taxes, delivery schedules are handled by Shell. If the owner thinks fuel is going to go up they cannot request additional fuel. The Shell truck shows up when Shell decides to fuel them. Corporate is tied electronically into the individual storage tanks and often the fueling truck shows up with less than a 2 hour supply left in the tanks. Then they fill up the tanks =BC of capacity. From my point of view the station owner gets the short end of the stick at every turn. Recently they had back to back $0.10 increases, up $0.20 in 2 days followed by a $0.27 increase in diesel in one day. Diesel is well into the mid $5.00's in CA. The rule of thumb in gas station/convenience store ownership is you sell the gas at no profit to entice the motorist into buy the cigarettes. You sell the cigarettes at cost to drive beer sales. And you sell beer as a loss leader to get people in to buy fuel. Expect many gas stations to close in the next 5 years. I also have a connection with a 400+ station owner consortium that is involved in a class action suit claiming unfair business practices. Example the fuel distributor also owns many of the stations in the area. Guess who gets the lowest price fuel first and has advanced notice of fuel price changes? Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:18 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Well Jesse, I might be able to explane. The gas stations pump a lot of Gas, and have limited storage. The price should only change, when the tanks are filled. The tankers can only carry 8,000 gallons a load. With todays frequent fluctuation's, and high volume sales, that means every few days, and in some cases every day, they receive a tanker load, and are subject to price change, up or down. Now, back to airports, they sometimes have as much as half a million gallon storage tanks, filled by barge, rail car, or pipeline. They fill their tanks less frequently, so prices can be slower to change. When you buy a load of fuel, as a dealer, you pay before the driver drops his load in your tanks. Sometimes, an FBO will raise his price, before his next load, just because he can. It's a free market system, you can charge whatever you want. I hope I didn't ramble to much, does this makes sense? Former FBO Sam Marlow RV10/ #40157 Jesse Saint wrote: Can anybody explain why I can put diesel in my truck at the gas station for $4.80/gal and can put JetA in my plane (assuming I have a turbine) for $4.57? do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:10 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: HOUR TOTAL ON DOORS From: "AirMike" I would agree that 269 hrs is a reasonable time to spend on the doors and the hinge - locking mechanism -------- OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186333#186333 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:48 PM PST US From: "Chris and Susie McGough" Subject: Re: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Yes but look at the big picture why is oil going up "Futures" (stock market) some insignificant problem and the futures boys go off. Look at Bloomberg. The Iranian Preident basically said there is no supply problem its the Futures wankers in the States that are driveing the price up. Yes he might be a wolly and right or wrong Oil has dropped about $6 barrel in the last couple of days. I dont know a bloke just wants to fly his plane ! Simplistic view I know but the corner petrol station can do nothing about the 100% increase in fuel prices. Maybe a few cents or pennys regards Chris Still waiting on Dynon to be returned for first flight ( hoping to give the government more fuel taxes soon) ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Marks To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:43 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: OT - Explain This The corner gas station situation is more complicated than limited storage. In most brand name locations (I have very close ties to two Shell stations) the station owners have zero say in fuel deliveries. All the handling, receipt of payments, taxes, delivery schedules are handled by Shell. If the owner thinks fuel is going to go up they cannot request additional fuel. The Shell truck shows up when Shell decides to fuel them. Corporate is tied electronically into the individual storage tanks and often the fueling truck shows up with less than a 2 hour supply left in the tanks. Then they fill up the tanks =BC of capacity. >From my point of view the station owner gets the short end of the stick at every turn. Recently they had back to back $0.10 increases, up $0.20 in 2 days followed by a $0.27 increase in diesel in one day. Diesel is well into the mid $5.00's in CA. The rule of thumb in gas station/convenience store ownership is you sell the gas at no profit to entice the motorist into buy the cigarettes. You sell the cigarettes at cost to drive beer sales. And you sell beer as a loss leader to get people in to buy fuel. Expect many gas stations to close in the next 5 years. I also have a connection with a 400+ station owner consortium that is involved in a class action suit claiming unfair business practices. Example the fuel distributor also owns many of the stations in the area. Guess who gets the lowest price fuel first and has advanced notice of fuel price changes? Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:18 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: OT - Explain This Well Jesse, I might be able to explane. The gas stations pump a lot of Gas, and have limited storage. The price should only change, when the tanks are filled. The tankers can only carry 8,000 gallons a load. With todays frequent fluctuation's, and high volume sales, that means every few days, and in some cases every day, they receive a tanker load, and are subject to price change, up or down. Now, back to airports, they sometimes have as much as half a million gallon storage tanks, filled by barge, rail car, or pipeline. They fill their tanks less frequently, so prices can be slower to change. When you buy a load of fuel, as a dealer, you pay before the driver drops his load in your tanks. Sometimes, an FBO will raise his price, before his next load, just because he can. It's a free market system, you can charge whatever you want. I hope I didn't ramble to much, does this makes sense? Former FBO Sam Marlow RV10/ #40157 Jesse Saint wrote: Can anybody explain why I can put diesel in my truck at the gas station for $4.80/gal and can put JetA in my plane (assuming I have a turbine) for $4.57? do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution http://www.matronic - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=== ================http://www.matronics.com/ c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.