Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:29 AM - Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab (AirMike)
2. 07:48 AM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (John Jessen)
3. 07:55 AM - Re: RV-10 OSH Picnic (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
4. 09:05 AM - Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? (Jay Brinkmeyer)
5. 09:30 AM - Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? (Rob Kochman)
6. 10:19 AM - Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab (jkreidler)
7. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab (John Cumins)
8. 11:35 AM - Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? (Robert Wright)
9. 11:57 AM - Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? (pascal)
10. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab (Dickk9@aol.com)
11. 12:34 PM - Just another day in OSH (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
12. 12:54 PM - Re: Just another day in OSH (bruce breckenridge)
13. 12:55 PM - Re: Just another day in OSH (Rick Sked)
14. 01:08 PM - Re: Just another day in OSH (Tim Olson)
15. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab (pascal)
16. 01:49 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Chris)
17. 01:50 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? (Chris)
18. 02:03 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Ben Westfall)
19. 02:39 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (PJ Seipel)
20. 03:07 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Kelly McMullen)
21. 03:29 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Chris, Susie, Darcy)
22. 04:40 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Don McDonald)
23. 05:34 PM - Cabin Roof (Dave Saylor)
24. 05:35 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Patrick Pulis)
25. 05:44 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Chris, Susie, Darcy)
26. 05:51 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Rick Sked)
27. 06:26 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Rick Sked)
28. 06:40 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Rick Sked)
29. 07:08 PM - Re: RV-10 OSH Picnic (nukeflyboy)
30. 07:27 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Dave Saylor)
31. 07:35 PM - Re: Baggage door seal (ScooterF15)
32. 07:48 PM - Re: RV-10 OSH Picnic (John Testement)
33. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: Baggage door seal (Jesse Saint)
34. 08:08 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Rick Sked)
35. 08:27 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (William Curtis)
36. 08:27 PM - Re: RV-10 OSH Picnic (bcondrey)
37. 08:38 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? (John Cox)
38. 09:04 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1 (Rick Sked)
39. 09:06 PM - Re: RV-10 OSH Picnic (Les Kearney)
40. 09:45 PM - Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? (pascal)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab |
Vans sells a combo (white) position-light/strobe that goes on the bottom of the
Rudder. I believe that the lights are on separate switches. If that is not adequate,
have at it. It should not be too hard. Whelen makes a small beacon that
they put on the newer Cessnas, but you could probably fabricate a better one
yourself using LED's.
--------
OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09
Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194697#194697
Message 2
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Dave actually has an interesting and worthy point. It's not so much about
the SB, I think, as about some of the engineering decisions. The plane is a
good airplane, and certainly every plane design has some unforeseen issues
that must be field addressed. That's no problem. It's also not about how
big or small the pieces are, since some very small pieces in this plane
serve very important functions...think cotter pins.
However, there are more than a few design issues that leave one scratching
the bald spot. Doors that rip off when accidentally opening in flight (it
will happen many times within any fleet of planes, not just the RV-10, and
give the flex within the cabin and doors, should have been an anticipated
event leading to a more airworthy design), almost certainly causing HS
damage in the process. Too few ribs in the HS to sustain bird (or door
strikes). An odd "discontinuity" in the trim tabs for some unknown reason
(at least to me, is this a means of addressing a problem in handling at low,
high power speeds?) not actually understood that might be contributing to
what stresses. Doors that do not have a second safety catch, especially
given their lack of aerodynamics when opened in flight. Brakes that are not
vented and of a mass that is correspondent to the size and possible uses of
the plane. A lack of a cage or simple roll bar to augment what is a
questionable structural component of the fuselage, namely the fiberglass
top. Brake master cylinders that stick out so feet can hit them, possibly
causing some type of leak (I've never understood this in all of Van's
planes) There are more, I'm sure.
Tim James has a -10 with a roll bar, as well as a two-stop door catch, both
easy fixes to the current design. Paul Grimstad has developed a sensible
(and beautiful) rudder pedal and brake assembly replacement. We're waiting
for a truly structural cabin top, but a roll bar would suffice. The
innovators are out there addressing the shortcomings, which will be
identified as we move forward. Eventually they will be addressed, one at a
time, leading to a better platform, but being addressed by the builder
community. Someone will come up with better doors, I'm sure. I hope.
Maybe a whole replacement for cabin top and doors.
Back to Dave's point. I think we need to evaluate each issue and address
them, one by one, as a flying community. We need to question each and every
one, which, by his question, Dave does. It's not an insurance issue. His
question was to shine a questioning light on a design issue. Is there
something else going on here that we need to understand, and does this
replacement part fix the inherent problem or is it a band-aid? Yes, the
fact that a piece was sent out to all registered users indicates a serious
problem, and we all are happy that the problem was caught and a quick
response came forth. What about the others? I find the door issue one of a
nature that should not have to be addressed by each builder alone, nor by
the builder community, but by the engineers at Van's.
My plea is that, if a builder finds something or knows of something, that it
be shared with all, especially if they have come up with a fix! I'll try to
get good pictures of Tim's roll bar and double catch door latch, and perhaps
whatever measurements are needed, along with a parts list for posting. If
you're using this list while building but do not contribute ideas and
discussions, please think about starting to do so. There aren't that many
who take the time to post; we need everyone's help and good ideas.
Thanks, Dave, for having the courage to open this thread. And, thanks to
all for their sincere, non-flammable replies. A great community.
Have fun at OSH. Take lots of pictures! Share!
John J
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
With all due respect, I know I have to do the SB, and I will, but if the
empennage is that inclined to come off this airplane without those two
small pieces of aluminum installed, I wouldn't fly it after they were
installed!
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: McGANN, Ron <mailto:ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
I prefer to remove the empennage myself, in the hangar - rather than have it
do so on its own, at 10000'.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Thursday, 24 July 2008 8:22 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
What if I never do the SB on the tailcone of my plane?
Fire away!
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ics.com
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 OSH Picnic |
Can't think of anything we need. Just put up the 10x20 shade to complement the
2 smaller ones. Also now have a full size grill and barn fan! Quite the operation
this year...
Bob
--------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
Sent: Wed Jul 23 19:44:53 2008
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 OSH Picnic
Janice and I will be there. Let us know if there is anything we can do to
help. Our plans are to be there around 9-10am.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:00 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 OSH Picnic
Time to spend some of generous donation from Steve DiNieri and Bob Leffler!
We've decided to kick off the week with a BBQ Saturday evening for the every
arrival crowd. RV-10 builders, flyers and families are all invited. If
you're a serious wannbe we won't turn you away :)
Let's plan on about 6:00 at RV-10 HQ located at 55th and Lindbergh in Camp
Scholler.
Please let us know if you'll be able to stop by so we can insure we don't
run short of food & drink.
Bob, Susan, Gary and Brenda
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194646#194646
Message 4
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| Subject: | Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? |
What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole gets too
large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The others might be
fun to try on someone else's project.
Cheers,
Jay
1) AN3 + washer/nut
2) #8 pan head screw + washer/nut
3) duct tape
4) chewing gum
5) proseal
6) bailing wire
7) more primer
8) a good place for an adel clamp
Cheers,
Jay
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? |
I had a couple of these when doing the SB (I did it without removing the aft
deck--more trouble than it was worth in retrospect). I used CherryMax
CR-3243-4-x rivets. Just drill to #27 and they install like normal blind
rivets.
This place sells them individually:
http://www.ddaircraft.com/subcategory.cfm?Subcategory=CR3243&Category=RIVETS
-Rob
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole
> gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The others
> might be fun to try on someone else's project.
>
> Cheers,
> Jay
>
> 1) AN3 + washer/nut
> 2) #8 pan head screw + washer/nut
> 3) duct tape
> 4) chewing gum
> 5) proseal
> 6) bailing wire
> 7) more primer
> 8) a good place for an adel clamp
>
> Cheers,
> Jay
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab |
John, I mounted an LED beacon in the fairing on top of the vertical stabilizer.
I actually cut into the fairing, and glassed in a pocket so only the lens portion
of the beacon was sticking out. I did not want the entire assembly sticking
up in the air stream.
Obviously we are thinking alike, I do not want to have to run the strobes all the
time. The beacon is LED so it should last for along time, will not emit radio
noise, and uses very little power.
The 'trick' I used, if I can call it a trick, was to use a PVC pipe cap from the
hardware store as a mold for the pocket I glassed in. After receiving the beacon
I began to study it, and realized the the base of the beacon was in fact
a PVC pipe cap, so the fit in the end was perfect.
Got the beacon from Spruce $230 ish...
I wish I had a few pictures for you but I am at KOSH and don't have any with me.
--------
RV-10 Quick Build
4 Partner Build - Finishing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194737#194737
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab |
Thanks so much Jason, I wish I was there with you maybe next year.
If you could please send me some pics when you get back from your trip that
would be great. I will make sure I install a conduit on the VS before I
rivet the skin on I am hoping next week.
Thanks again.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jkreidler
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 10:16 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab
<jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
John, I mounted an LED beacon in the fairing on top of the vertical
stabilizer. I actually cut into the fairing, and glassed in a pocket so
only the lens portion of the beacon was sticking out. I did not want the
entire assembly sticking up in the air stream.
Obviously we are thinking alike, I do not want to have to run the strobes
all the time. The beacon is LED so it should last for along time, will not
emit radio noise, and uses very little power.
The 'trick' I used, if I can call it a trick, was to use a PVC pipe cap from
the hardware store as a mold for the pocket I glassed in. After receiving
the beacon I began to study it, and realized the the base of the beacon was
in fact a PVC pipe cap, so the fit in the end was perfect.
Got the beacon from Spruce $230 ish...
I wish I had a few pictures for you but I am at KOSH and don't have any with
me.
--------
RV-10 Quick Build
4 Partner Build - Finishing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194737#194737
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? |
I used 3 AN3-X bolts in my whole SB; two .- There for a while I was wonde
ring if I was helping or hurting the structure.=0A-=0ARob=0A=0A=0A=0A----
- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>=0A
PM=0ASubject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rive
o.com>=0A=0AWhat an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled
out hole gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2.
The others might be fun to try on someone else's project.=0A=0ACheers,=0AJa
y=0A=0A1) AN3 + washer/nut=0A2) #8 pan head screw +- washer/nut=0A3) duct
tape=0A4) chewing gum=0A5) proseal=0A6) bailing wire=0A7) more primer=0A8)
a good place for an adel clamp=0A=0ACheers,=0AJay=0A=0A=0A=0A- - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
======0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? |
too large to fit the old rivet?
I would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much chewing
gum you use! ;-)
Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if so 1 or 2 seem
fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big to fit the
same length in than simply go up one length of the rivet aka AD4704-4 to
AD4704-5, etc..
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jay Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?
>
> What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole
> gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The
> others might be fun to try on someone else's project.
>
> Cheers,
> Jay
>
> 1) AN3 + washer/nut
> 2) #8 pan head screw + washer/nut
> 3) duct tape
> 4) chewing gum
> 5) proseal
> 6) bailing wire
> 7) more primer
> 8) a good place for an adel clamp
>
> Cheers,
> Jay
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab |
CHECK OUT _http://www.kestrobes.com/beacon.htm_
(http://www.kestrobes.com/beacon.htm)
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Just another day in OSH |
Look out for the land shark in Lake Olson!
Do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Just another day in OSH |
Man, I wish I were there.
Holding down the fort in Portland, OR
Bruce
40018
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 12:31 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <
rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
> Look out for the land shark in Lake Olson!
>
> Do not archive
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Just another day in OSH |
Heh heh.....watch out for PETA!!! That grass won't look so nice a week or so from
now!!! See ya Sunday, Monday for sure.
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:31:00 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RV10-List: Just another day in OSH
Look out for the land shark in Lake Olson!
Do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Just another day in OSH |
You are too funny!
I'll be coming in this eve. with Scott and RaNae Schmidt
and my fam, so we'll be seeing ya!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Look out for the land shark in Lake Olson!
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab |
Anyone know where to get a cover for a strobe. In other words. I have a
red strobe (like the white strobes put in the wingtips) and need a cover
for it. I too planned to do the VS or belly but haven't found a cover
option I can use.
Thanks!
Pascal
From: Dickk9@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Strobe or becan on top of Virtical Stab
CHECK OUT http://www.kestrobes.com/beacon.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
Fantasy Football today.
Message 16
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John, you make some excellent points.
There are plenty of aircraft out there that have cracking bulkhead
issues or some other type of structural problem... could be an accessory
or engine with a structural problem too. Engines may need an overhaul
at a specified interval because the design and field experience has
dictated an inspection be done at a certain time, because the part wear
rate has been forecast and the failure modes and effects have been
identified. Wear can result in loss of wall thickness and fatgue failure
so you look at the part at the right time to either continue use or
replace/repair it. You don't necessarily change the design (such as add
a plate)
In this case the Van's engineering solution (by no means the only one)
is repeatative inspection until repair can be made at a reasonable time.
Look at military aircraft, perhaps the fleet accepts more risk because
failure of the mission outweighs the risk (i.e. we will fly with this
crack because if we don't get these bombs to target we lose the war).
These types of analysis are done every day.
I thought a bit about this SB and looked at the requirements 25 hours
inspection until annual. This clearly means I can fly about 100 hours
before ever putting the plates in and I would have looked at the
location 3 times (as long as no cracks found). Given the reports from
the field it appears no cracks have been found except by Vans. THis is
excellent field data to suggest that continued 25 hours may be an
"alternate means of compliance" and a crack growth to failure is not
expected in 25 hours of operation. Or if crack growth could be
forecasted the interval could be XX hours for the rest of the
aircraft's life. So you could probably ask Van's what if I inspect every
XX hours and just not put the plates in.
Just trying to say there are other ways to keep the risk of tail failure
at bay without actually complying with the bulletin.
-Chris
#40072 complying with SB because not flying, tail is off, and it is
easier to do than inspect every XX hours.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Jessen
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
Dave actually has an interesting and worthy point. It's not so much
about the SB, I think, as about some of the engineering decisions. The
plane is a good airplane, and certainly every plane design has some
unforeseen issues that must be field addressed. That's no problem.
It's also not about how big or small the pieces are, since some very
small pieces in this plane serve very important functions...think cotter
pins.
However, there are more than a few design issues that leave one
scratching the bald spot. Doors that rip off when accidentally opening
in flight (it will happen many times within any fleet of planes, not
just the RV-10, and give the flex within the cabin and doors, should
have been an anticipated event leading to a more airworthy design),
almost certainly causing HS damage in the process. Too few ribs in the
HS to sustain bird (or door strikes). An odd "discontinuity" in the
trim tabs for some unknown reason (at least to me, is this a means of
addressing a problem in handling at low, high power speeds?) not
actually understood that might be contributing to what stresses. Doors
that do not have a second safety catch, especially given their lack of
aerodynamics when opened in flight. Brakes that are not vented and of a
mass that is correspondent to the size and possible uses of the plane.
A lack of a cage or simple roll bar to augment what is a questionable
structural component of the fuselage, namely the fiberglass top. Brake
master cylinders that stick out so feet can hit them, possibly causing
some type of leak (I've never understood this in all of Van's planes)
There are more, I'm sure.
Tim James has a -10 with a roll bar, as well as a two-stop door catch,
both easy fixes to the current design. Paul Grimstad has developed a
sensible (and beautiful) rudder pedal and brake assembly replacement.
We're waiting for a truly structural cabin top, but a roll bar would
suffice. The innovators are out there addressing the shortcomings,
which will be identified as we move forward. Eventually they will be
addressed, one at a time, leading to a better platform, but being
addressed by the builder community. Someone will come up with better
doors, I'm sure. I hope. Maybe a whole replacement for cabin top and
doors.
Back to Dave's point. I think we need to evaluate each issue and
address them, one by one, as a flying community. We need to question
each and every one, which, by his question, Dave does. It's not an
insurance issue. His question was to shine a questioning light on a
design issue. Is there something else going on here that we need to
understand, and does this replacement part fix the inherent problem or
is it a band-aid? Yes, the fact that a piece was sent out to all
registered users indicates a serious problem, and we all are happy that
the problem was caught and a quick response came forth. What about the
others? I find the door issue one of a nature that should not have to
be addressed by each builder alone, nor by the builder community, but by
the engineers at Van's.
My plea is that, if a builder finds something or knows of something,
that it be shared with all, especially if they have come up with a fix!
I'll try to get good pictures of Tim's roll bar and double catch door
latch, and perhaps whatever measurements are needed, along with a parts
list for posting. If you're using this list while building but do not
contribute ideas and discussions, please think about starting to do so.
There aren't that many who take the time to post; we need everyone's
help and good ideas.
Thanks, Dave, for having the courage to open this thread. And, thanks
to all for their sincere, non-flammable replies. A great community.
Have fun at OSH. Take lots of pictures! Share!
John J
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:59 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
With all due respect, I know I have to do the SB, and I will, but if
the empennage is that inclined to come off this airplane without those
two small pieces of aluminum installed, I wouldn't fly it after they
were installed!
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: McGANN, Ron
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
I prefer to remove the empennage myself, in the hangar - rather
than have it do so on its own, at 10000'.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Thursday, 24 July 2008 8:22 AM
To: RV-10 matronics
Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
What if I never do the SB on the tailcone of my plane?
Fire away!
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ics.com
.matronics.com/contribution
"Warning:
The information contained in this email and any attached files is
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recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any
attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email
in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been
taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free,
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? |
I think the cherry max rivets are oversized to deal with slightly larger
holes due to removed rivets.
-CHris
#40072
----- Original Message -----
From: "pascal" <pascal@rv10builder.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?
>
> too large to fit the old rivet?
>
> I would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much chewing
> gum you use! ;-)
>
> Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if so 1 or 2 seem
> fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big to fit the
> same length in than simply go up one length of the rivet aka AD4704-4 to
> AD4704-5, etc..
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jay Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM
> To: "RV10" <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?
>
>>
>> What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole
>> gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The
>> others might be fun to try on someone else's project.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jay
>>
>> 1) AN3 + washer/nut
>> 2) #8 pan head screw + washer/nut
>> 3) duct tape
>> 4) chewing gum
>> 5) proseal
>> 6) bailing wire
>> 7) more primer
>> 8) a good place for an adel clamp
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 18
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John,
I asked Van about the cabin top strength directly. He said that they drop
tested a fuselage and the top help up. I did not ask him any more specifics
as to the drop test except that I asked if the windows blew out or cracked
but he didn't remember.
I myself don't know a single thing about fiberglass strengths so I don't
even have an opinion as to the cabin top strength. I'm curios why the
impression is that the top is a "questionable structural component". Does
anyone know for certain its strengths/weaknesses or are we all just aluminum
bigots and we think fiberglass is weak? I'm not picking on anyone I just
want to know why the consensus seems to be that the top is not strong
enough. It looks thicker and stronger than any glass plane I've looked at.
-Ben W
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
Dave actually has an interesting and worthy point. It's not so much about
the SB, I think, as about some of the engineering decisions. The plane is a
good airplane, and certainly every plane design has some unforeseen issues
that must be field addressed. That's no problem. It's also not about how
big or small the pieces are, since some very small pieces in this plane
serve very important functions...think cotter pins.
However, there are more than a few design issues that leave one scratching
the bald spot. Doors that rip off when accidentally opening in flight (it
will happen many times within any fleet of planes, not just the RV-10, and
give the flex within the cabin and doors, should have been an anticipated
event leading to a more airworthy design), almost certainly causing HS
damage in the process. Too few ribs in the HS to sustain bird (or door
strikes). An odd "discontinuity" in the trim tabs for some unknown reason
(at least to me, is this a means of addressing a problem in handling at low,
high power speeds?) not actually understood that might be contributing to
what stresses. Doors that do not have a second safety catch, especially
given their lack of aerodynamics when opened in flight. Brakes that are not
vented and of a mass that is correspondent to the size and possible uses of
the plane. A lack of a cage or simple roll bar to augment what is a
questionable structural component of the fuselage, namely the fiberglass
top. Brake master cylinders that stick out so feet can hit them, possibly
causing some type of leak (I've never understood this in all of Van's
planes) There are more, I'm sure.
Tim James has a -10 with a roll bar, as well as a two-stop door catch, both
easy fixes to the current design. Paul Grimstad has developed a sensible
(and beautiful) rudder pedal and brake assembly replacement. We're waiting
for a truly structural cabin top, but a roll bar would suffice. The
innovators are out there addressing the shortcomings, which will be
identified as we move forward. Eventually they will be addressed, one at a
time, leading to a better platform, but being addressed by the builder
community. Someone will come up with better doors, I'm sure. I hope.
Maybe a whole replacement for cabin top and doors.
Back to Dave's point. I think we need to evaluate each issue and address
them, one by one, as a flying community. We need to question each and every
one, which, by his question, Dave does. It's not an insurance issue. His
question was to shine a questioning light on a design issue. Is there
something else going on here that we need to understand, and does this
replacement part fix the inherent problem or is it a band-aid? Yes, the
fact that a piece was sent out to all registered users indicates a serious
problem, and we all are happy that the problem was caught and a quick
response came forth. What about the others? I find the door issue one of a
nature that should not have to be addressed by each builder alone, nor by
the builder community, but by the engineers at Van's.
My plea is that, if a builder finds something or knows of something, that it
be shared with all, especially if they have come up with a fix! I'll try to
get good pictures of Tim's roll bar and double catch door latch, and perhaps
whatever measurements are needed, along with a parts list for posting. If
you're using this list while building but do not contribute ideas and
discussions, please think about starting to do so. There aren't that many
who take the time to post; we need everyone's help and good ideas.
Thanks, Dave, for having the courage to open this thread. And, thanks to
all for their sincere, non-flammable replies. A great community.
Have fun at OSH. Take lots of pictures! Share!
John J
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
With all due respect, I know I have to do the SB, and I will, but if the
empennage is that inclined to come off this airplane without those two
small pieces of aluminum installed, I wouldn't fly it after they were
installed!
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: McGANN, <mailto:ron.mcgann@baesystems.com> Ron
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
I prefer to remove the empennage myself, in the hangar - rather than have it
do so on its own, at 10000'.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Thursday, 24 July 2008 8:22 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
What if I never do the SB on the tailcone of my plane?
Fire away!
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ics.com
.matronics.com/contribution
"Warning:
The information contained in this email and any attached files is
confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended
recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any
attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email
in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been
taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free,
however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the
sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus
checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to
your computer."
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/Navigator?RV10-List
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Message 19
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John,
Every aircraft is a set of compromises and the RV-10 is no different.
Sure, the doors are a little flimsy, the construction is light in he
horizontal stab (and many other areas of the aircraft), the brakes and
rudder system are simple if not terribly ergonomic. But the aircraft
flies fast, gets good fuel performance, handles like an RV, and doesn't
cost half a million dollars. If you want to beef up the construction,
add a roll cage, put in better door latches, better brakes, better
rudder pedals, change the trim tabs, etc then hey, it's experimental and
you should definitely go for it. After you add all the weight and cost
to make the changes, you might have a more bullet-proof aircraft, but
it'll also be more expensive, more complex, and either be slower or burn
more gas.
I think we all might have different ideas of what constitutes perfection
when it comes to the RV-10. I do appreciate those that come up with
improvements to Van's design and think every builder should have the
opportunity to implement them or not as they so choose. I do not think
that Van's should have to research and do the engineering on each and
every one of them, nor should they be obligated to try and incorporate
them into the kit. They've addressed the issues as they see them, with
simple solutions that in their opinion get the job done.
I'll just have to disagree on the cabin top not being structural. Van's
designed it to be structural, hence the instructions not to drill into
it except where they placed hard points. If you've got information
about an RV-10 incident where the cabin top failed, then I'd definitely
be interested to hear about it.
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
John Jessen wrote:
> Dave actually has an interesting and worthy point. It's not so much
> about the SB, I think, as about some of the engineering decisions.
> The plane is a good airplane, and certainly every plane design has
> some unforeseen issues that must be field addressed. That's no
> problem. It's also not about how big or small the pieces are, since
> some very small pieces in this plane serve very important
> functions...think cotter pins.
>
> However, there are more than a few design issues that leave one
> scratching the bald spot. Doors that rip off when accidentally
> opening in flight (it will happen many times within any fleet of
> planes, not just the RV-10, and give the flex within the cabin and
> doors, should have been an anticipated event leading to a more
> airworthy design), almost certainly causing HS damage in the process.
> Too few ribs in the HS to sustain bird (or door strikes). An odd
> "discontinuity" in the trim tabs for some unknown reason (at least to
> me, is this a means of addressing a problem in handling at low, high
> power speeds?) not actually understood that might be contributing to
> what stresses. Doors that do not have a second safety catch,
> especially given their lack of aerodynamics when opened in flight.
> Brakes that are not vented and of a mass that is correspondent to the
> size and possible uses of the plane. A lack of a cage or simple roll
> bar to augment what is a questionable structural component of the
> fuselage, namely the fiberglass top. Brake master cylinders that
> stick out so feet can hit them, possibly causing some type of leak
> (I've never understood this in all of Van's planes) There are more,
> I'm sure.
>
> Tim James has a -10 with a roll bar, as well as a two-stop door catch,
> both easy fixes to the current design. Paul Grimstad has developed a
> sensible (and beautiful) rudder pedal and brake assembly replacement.
> We're waiting for a truly structural cabin top, but a roll bar would
> suffice. The innovators are out there addressing the shortcomings,
> which will be identified as we move forward. Eventually they will be
> addressed, one at a time, leading to a better platform, but being
> addressed by the builder community. Someone will come up with better
> doors, I'm sure. I hope. Maybe a whole replacement for cabin top and
> doors.
>
> Back to Dave's point. I think we need to evaluate each issue and
> address them, one by one, as a flying community. We need to question
> each and every one, which, by his question, Dave does. It's not an
> insurance issue. His question was to shine a questioning light on a
> design issue. Is there something else going on here that we need to
> understand, and does this replacement part fix the inherent problem or
> is it a band-aid? Yes, the fact that a piece was sent out to all
> registered users indicates a serious problem, and we all are happy
> that the problem was caught and a quick response came forth. What
> about the others? I find the door issue one of a nature that should
> not have to be addressed by each builder alone, nor by the builder
> community, but by the engineers at Van's.
>
> My plea is that, if a builder finds something or knows of something,
> that it be shared with all, especially if they have come up with a
> fix! I'll try to get good pictures of Tim's roll bar and double catch
> door latch, and perhaps whatever measurements are needed, along with a
> parts list for posting. If you're using this list while building but
> do not contribute ideas and discussions, please think about
> starting to do so. There aren't that many who take the time to post;
> we need everyone's help and good ideas.
>
> Thanks, Dave, for having the courage to open this thread. And, thanks
> to all for their sincere, non-flammable replies. A great community.
>
> Have fun at OSH. Take lots of pictures! Share!
>
> John J
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave
> Leikam
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:59 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
>
> With all due respect, I know I have to do the SB, and I will, but
> if the empennage is that inclined to come off this airplane
> without those two small pieces of aluminum installed, I wouldn't
> fly it after they were installed!
>
> Dave Leikam
> RV-10 #40496
> N89DA (Reserved)
> Muskego, WI
> do not archive
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 20
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I've heard speculation from someone close to the situation that they
believe that the bulkhead simply wasn't properly deburred on that one
aircraft. Given that it was primarily used for transition training,
with a lot of stalls shaking the tail, it wasn't too surprising. More
significant is that no one else seems to have found a crack, nor was
there one on 410RV.
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com> wrote:
> John, you make some excellent points.
>
Message 21
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Just do it and move on.
regards Chris
Message 22
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Over a year ago, while working on the emppange, I installed a gusset on eac
h side of the same area in question in the SB.- Can someone take a look a
t what I did and comment as to whether this should take care of the problem
?- Thanks guys.-
Don McDonald
#40636- - finishing the finishing
--- On Thu, 7/24/08, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
<apilot2@gmail.com>
I've heard speculation from someone close to the situation that they
believe that the bulkhead simply wasn't properly deburred on that one
aircraft. Given that it was primarily used for transition training,
with a lot of stalls shaking the tail, it wasn't too surprising. More
significant is that no one else seems to have found a crack, nor was
there one on 410RV.
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com> wrote:
> John, you make some excellent points.
>
============0A=0A=0A
Message 23
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My sense is that the top is very strong.
I had a discussion with the factory, the upshot of which was that
Engineering was concerned about (prohibited) drilling the 2 #10 holes in the
rain channel for the visor mounts. Rather than thinking "jeez, it won't
even take a couple little holes", the proper thought should be that some
parts are critical and should not be casually modified. Those channels were
designed from the beginning to be strong enough to protect the occupants.
I know the upper roof section is VERY thick for a fiberglass piece. Again,
that is for a reason (added strength), not because it was easy or cheap.
The core is pretty dense too, adding to the strength.
The cage formed by the door frames and roof looks pretty strong. Everything
has a limit, but the roof doesn't seem to me at all like a weak point.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
John,
I asked Van about the cabin top strength directly. He said that they drop
tested a fuselage and the top help up. I did not ask him any more specifics
as to the drop test except that I asked if the windows blew out or cracked
but he didn't remember.
I myself don't know a single thing about fiberglass strengths so I don't
even have an opinion as to the cabin top strength. I'm curios why the
impression is that the top is a "questionable structural component". Does
anyone know for certain its strengths/weaknesses or are we all just aluminum
bigots and we think fiberglass is weak? I'm not picking on anyone I just
want to know why the consensus seems to be that the top is not strong
enough. It looks thicker and stronger than any glass plane I've looked at.
-Ben W
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
Dave actually has an interesting and worthy point. It's not so much about
the SB, I think, as about some of the engineering decisions. The plane is a
good airplane, and certainly every plane design has some unforeseen issues
that must be field addressed. That's no problem. It's also not about how
big or small the pieces are, since some very small pieces in this plane
serve very important functions...think cotter pins.
However, there are more than a few design issues that leave one scratching
the bald spot. Doors that rip off when accidentally opening in flight (it
will happen many times within any fleet of planes, not just the RV-10, and
give the flex within the cabin and doors, should have been an anticipated
event leading to a more airworthy design), almost certainly causing HS
damage in the process. Too few ribs in the HS to sustain bird (or door
strikes). An odd "discontinuity" in the trim tabs for some unknown reason
(at least to me, is this a means of addressing a problem in handling at low,
high power speeds?) not actually understood that might be contributing to
what stresses. Doors that do not have a second safety catch, especially
given their lack of aerodynamics when opened in flight. Brakes that are not
vented and of a mass that is correspondent to the size and possible uses of
the plane. A lack of a cage or simple roll bar to augment what is a
questionable structural component of the fuselage, namely the fiberglass
top. Brake master cylinders that stick out so feet can hit them, possibly
causing some type of leak (I've never understood this in all of Van's
planes) There are more, I'm sure.
Tim James has a -10 with a roll bar, as well as a two-stop door catch, both
easy fixes to the current design. Paul Grimstad has developed a sensible
(and beautiful) rudder pedal and brake assembly replacement. We're waiting
for a truly structural cabin top, but a roll bar would suffice. The
innovators are out there addressing the shortcomings, which will be
identified as we move forward. Eventually they will be addressed, one at a
time, leading to a better platform, but being addressed by the builder
community. Someone will come up with better doors, I'm sure. I hope.
Maybe a whole replacement for cabin top and doors.
Back to Dave's point. I think we need to evaluate each issue and address
them, one by one, as a flying community. We need to question each and every
one, which, by his question, Dave does. It's not an insurance issue. His
question was to shine a questioning light on a design issue. Is there
something else going on here that we need to understand, and does this
replacement part fix the inherent problem or is it a band-aid? Yes, the
fact that a piece was sent out to all registered users indicates a serious
problem, and we all are happy that the problem was caught and a quick
response came forth. What about the others? I find the door issue one of a
nature that should not have to be addressed by each builder alone, nor by
the builder community, but by the engineers at Van's.
My plea is that, if a builder finds something or knows of something, that it
be shared with all, especially if they have come up with a fix! I'll try to
get good pictures of Tim's roll bar and double catch door latch, and perhaps
whatever measurements are needed, along with a parts list for posting. If
you're using this list while building but do not contribute ideas and
discussions, please think about starting to do so. There aren't that many
who take the time to post; we need everyone's help and good ideas.
Thanks, Dave, for having the courage to open this thread. And, thanks to
all for their sincere, non-flammable replies. A great community.
Have fun at OSH. Take lots of pictures! Share!
John J
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
With all due respect, I know I have to do the SB, and I will, but if the
empennage is that inclined to come off this airplane without those two
small pieces of aluminum installed, I wouldn't fly it after they were
installed!
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: McGANN, Ron <mailto:ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
I prefer to remove the empennage myself, in the hangar - rather than have it
do so on its own, at 10000'.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
Sent: Thursday, 24 July 2008 8:22 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
What if I never do the SB on the tailcone of my plane?
Fire away!
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ics.com
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Message 24
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That would make a great T-shirt logo.
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris, Susie, Darcy [mailto:vhmum@bigpond.com]
Sent: Friday, 25 July 2008 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
--> <vhmum@bigpond.com>
Just do it and move on.
regards Chris
Message 25
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Don that looks a fantastic job indeed. I would direct the question to
engineering department at vans as we only have opinions. Sometimes
beefing something up can cause problems in other areas so I would ask
the people that designed the kit engineering@vansaircraft.com.
Looking forward to the afternoon today as I have completed the test
period of 15 hours and the family will be on board the sarvo for there
first flight!
regards Chris
VH-ICY
No tunnel heat
No cracks
----- Original Message -----
From: Don McDonald
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
Over a year ago, while working on the emppange, I installed a
gusset on each side of the same area in question in the SB. Can someone
take a look at what I did and comment as to whether this should take
care of the problem? Thanks guys.
Don McDonald
#40636 - finishing the finishing
--- On Thu, 7/24/08, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 3:04 PM
<apilot2@gmail.com>
I've heard speculation from someone close to the situation that they
believe that the bulkhead simply wasn't properly deburred on that one
aircraft. Given that it was primarily used for transition training,
with a lot of stalls shaking the tail, it wasn't too surprising. More
significant is that no one else seems to have found a crack, nor was
there one on 410RV.
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com> wrote:
> John, you make some excellent points.
>
Message 26
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How about just do it "RIGHT" and move on... :)
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Pulis" <patrick.pulis@seagas.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:32:53 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
That would make a great T-shirt logo.
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris, Susie, Darcy [mailto:vhmum@bigpond.com]
Sent: Friday, 25 July 2008 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
--> <vhmum@bigpond.com>
Just do it and move on.
regards Chris
Message 27
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I was there when Van said he couldn't remember if the windows were affected on
the drop test...Now that's scary!! Owner of the company and all. Don't get me
wrong I have the utmost respect for him but I was taken back by that answer.
My own cabin top has been stress tested by two eight year old boys (now deceased,
just kidding) who thought it would be cool to walk (read jump, run and climb)
on it while it sat on the floor....and yes my heart stopped when I opened the
door to see what the ruckus was.
The top never budged an inch, never showed any signs of side deflection, oh, and
the windows were not installed. I feel very confident in the strength in a flip
over...which I never hope to find out, in a bonafide wings torn off, screaming
nose first into the ground, flames engulfing crash, the top may not be your
biggest concern. FYI, for those that may not have seen the prior post about
the doors leaving the aircraft, one door DID hit the HS, and the stab held up
pretty well in that case, very well means they landed OK, but the stab was busted
up pretty good.
Bottom line fellow builders, never settle for "good enough" Make your parts fit
well, act like you never heard of a shortcut, follow the plans and improve on
if you like, use the established standards as your "C minus" guide to building
it right but don't just build to the point where you are willing to place yourself
in your creation but build it where your comfortable putting the nearest
and dearest people in your life into your craft.
For those of you that have had the opportunity to walk amongst a sea of RV's at
OSH, Sun N Fun or any gathering take note of what you see, the thing that separates
the Beauties from the Beasts is craftsmanship, pride in work. I can't tell
you the few times I woke up in the middle of the night and said...that isn't
good enough and made it a point to make sure it was rectified the very next
time I worked on the airplane, actually I could never sleep again until I did
so it was usually pretty quick.
And to toss my own little flame onto the subject...Would you have asked the question
regarding not complying with the SB if it were an AD or if an RV-10 had
lost a HS during flight? Rememeber... Vans lost and aircraft and a member of their
own staff IIRC due to an undetermined (that's how I read the NTSB report)
breakup in flight several years ago. I think I'll just thank them for letting
us in on the cracks that were found and do the SB. I applaude you for generating
a very good discussion on the subject. Little voice tells me that was your
real intent.
Craftsmanship, Pride and Responsibility will allow all of us to keep building or
maybe we should say craft our own aerospace vehicles.
Rick Sked
40185
Soap box vacated
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "PJ Seipel" <seipel@seznam.cz>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:36:24 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
John,
Every aircraft is a set of compromises and the RV-10 is no different.
Sure, the doors are a little flimsy, the construction is light in he
horizontal stab (and many other areas of the aircraft), the brakes and
rudder system are simple if not terribly ergonomic. But the aircraft
flies fast, gets good fuel performance, handles like an RV, and doesn't
cost half a million dollars. If you want to beef up the construction,
add a roll cage, put in better door latches, better brakes, better
rudder pedals, change the trim tabs, etc then hey, it's experimental and
you should definitely go for it. After you add all the weight and cost
to make the changes, you might have a more bullet-proof aircraft, but
it'll also be more expensive, more complex, and either be slower or burn
more gas.
I think we all might have different ideas of what constitutes perfection
when it comes to the RV-10. I do appreciate those that come up with
improvements to Van's design and think every builder should have the
opportunity to implement them or not as they so choose. I do not think
that Van's should have to research and do the engineering on each and
every one of them, nor should they be obligated to try and incorporate
them into the kit. They've addressed the issues as they see them, with
simple solutions that in their opinion get the job done.
I'll just have to disagree on the cabin top not being structural. Van's
designed it to be structural, hence the instructions not to drill into
it except where they placed hard points. If you've got information
about an RV-10 incident where the cabin top failed, then I'd definitely
be interested to hear about it.
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
John Jessen wrote:
> Dave actually has an interesting and worthy point. It's not so much
> about the SB, I think, as about some of the engineering decisions.
> The plane is a good airplane, and certainly every plane design has
> some unforeseen issues that must be field addressed. That's no
> problem. It's also not about how big or small the pieces are, since
> some very small pieces in this plane serve very important
> functions...think cotter pins.
>
> However, there are more than a few design issues that leave one
> scratching the bald spot. Doors that rip off when accidentally
> opening in flight (it will happen many times within any fleet of
> planes, not just the RV-10, and give the flex within the cabin and
> doors, should have been an anticipated event leading to a more
> airworthy design), almost certainly causing HS damage in the process.
> Too few ribs in the HS to sustain bird (or door strikes). An odd
> "discontinuity" in the trim tabs for some unknown reason (at least to
> me, is this a means of addressing a problem in handling at low, high
> power speeds?) not actually understood that might be contributing to
> what stresses. Doors that do not have a second safety catch,
> especially given their lack of aerodynamics when opened in flight.
> Brakes that are not vented and of a mass that is correspondent to the
> size and possible uses of the plane. A lack of a cage or simple roll
> bar to augment what is a questionable structural component of the
> fuselage, namely the fiberglass top. Brake master cylinders that
> stick out so feet can hit them, possibly causing some type of leak
> (I've never understood this in all of Van's planes) There are more,
> I'm sure.
>
> Tim James has a -10 with a roll bar, as well as a two-stop door catch,
> both easy fixes to the current design. Paul Grimstad has developed a
> sensible (and beautiful) rudder pedal and brake assembly replacement.
> We're waiting for a truly structural cabin top, but a roll bar would
> suffice. The innovators are out there addressing the shortcomings,
> which will be identified as we move forward. Eventually they will be
> addressed, one at a time, leading to a better platform, but being
> addressed by the builder community. Someone will come up with better
> doors, I'm sure. I hope. Maybe a whole replacement for cabin top and
> doors.
>
> Back to Dave's point. I think we need to evaluate each issue and
> address them, one by one, as a flying community. We need to question
> each and every one, which, by his question, Dave does. It's not an
> insurance issue. His question was to shine a questioning light on a
> design issue. Is there something else going on here that we need to
> understand, and does this replacement part fix the inherent problem or
> is it a band-aid? Yes, the fact that a piece was sent out to all
> registered users indicates a serious problem, and we all are happy
> that the problem was caught and a quick response came forth. What
> about the others? I find the door issue one of a nature that should
> not have to be addressed by each builder alone, nor by the builder
> community, but by the engineers at Van's.
>
> My plea is that, if a builder finds something or knows of something,
> that it be shared with all, especially if they have come up with a
> fix! I'll try to get good pictures of Tim's roll bar and double catch
> door latch, and perhaps whatever measurements are needed, along with a
> parts list for posting. If you're using this list while building but
> do not contribute ideas and discussions, please think about
> starting to do so. There aren't that many who take the time to post;
> we need everyone's help and good ideas.
>
> Thanks, Dave, for having the courage to open this thread. And, thanks
> to all for their sincere, non-flammable replies. A great community.
>
> Have fun at OSH. Take lots of pictures! Share!
>
> John J
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave
> Leikam
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:59 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
>
> With all due respect, I know I have to do the SB, and I will, but
> if the empennage is that inclined to come off this airplane
> without those two small pieces of aluminum installed, I wouldn't
> fly it after they were installed!
>
> Dave Leikam
> RV-10 #40496
> N89DA (Reserved)
> Muskego, WI
> do not archive
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 28
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Heh heh...looks great Don but a few of them rivets on the J stingers on the
left side=C2-seem a little lightly driven...
Rick S.
40185
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don McDonald" <building_partner@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 4:36:23 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
Over a year ago, while working on the emppange, I installed a gusset on eac
h side of the same area in question in the SB.=C2- Can someone take a loo
k at what I did and comment as to whether this should take care of the prob
lem?=C2- Thanks guys.=C2-
Don McDonald
#40636=C2- - finishing the finishing
--- On Thu, 7/24/08, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
<apilot2@gmail.com>
I've heard speculation from someone close to the situation that they
believe that the bulkhead simply wasn't properly deburred on that one
aircraft. Given that it was primarily used for transition training,
with a lot of stalls shaking the tail, it wasn't too surprising. More
significant is that no one else seems to have found a crack, nor was
there one on 410RV.
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com> wrote:
> John, you make some excellent points.
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 OSH Picnic |
Bob and company,
That's an offer we can't refuse. Dave and Wendy Moore will be there. We'll bring
some cookies.
--------
Dave
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB building
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194809#194809
Message 30
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>>My own cabin top has been stress tested by two eight year old boys<<
Drop test, shmop-test...I can just hear your response, Rick--in an even,
thoughtful tone, "Now boys, come on down from there and let's have some
cocoa"...
Dave
Boy 8, Girl (1)5
Do Not Archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage door seal |
To follow up on this thread, I found the name of the product I used for the baggage
door seal described below. I just checked and my local Home Depot has it
on the shelf next to the other weather stripping. It is made by Frost King, it's
called X-treme Rubber Weather Seal (3/8" wide 1/8" thick), product number "WhiteV23W".
Jim
N312JE
[quote="ScooterF15"]I ended up using some that I purchased at Home Depot. I initially
bought a roll of door seal that was the gray colored foam with a rectangular
cross section. I bought the thinnest one available and it just wouldn't
work because it was to thick.
I found a different style that worked perfectly on an adjacent shelf at Home
Depot: the box is out at the hangar so I can't give you a brand/model name right
now, but it is made of extremely soft tan colored foam that squishes flat
very well. Also the cross section has 3 ridges (it kind of looks like this:
/// ), so there isn't as much material to begin with. As far as my passengers
can tell (I've never ridden back there) it is sealed perfectly and allows for
easy opening and closing of the door.
-Jim
N312JE
In a message dated 1/13/2008 7:46:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, speckter@comcast.net
writes:
>
> I know the question has been asked before, but a search did not produce any
answers. What door seal works with the baggage door. I got some from Lowes
but it is too thick and McMaster doesnt show any the right size. Suggestions
from all you flying guys?
>
> Gary
> 40274
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape (http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489) in the new year.
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194812#194812
Message 32
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| Subject: | RV-10 OSH Picnic |
Bob,
Thanks so much for organizing this but we will have take a rain check and
stop by Sunday night for leftovers. We arrive Sunday afternoon.
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
Painting and final assembly
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:00 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 OSH Picnic
Time to spend some of generous donation from Steve DiNieri and Bob Leffler!
We've decided to kick off the week with a BBQ Saturday evening for the every
arrival crowd. RV-10 builders, flyers and families are all invited. If
you're a serious wannbe we won't turn you away :)
Let's plan on about 6:00 at RV-10 HQ located at 55th and Lindbergh in Camp
Scholler.
Please let us know if you'll be able to stop by so we can insure we don't
run short of food & drink.
Bob, Susan, Gary and Brenda
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194646#194646
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
4:05 PM
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage door seal |
Do you have any pictures?
Thanks.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jul 24, 2008, at 10:32 PM, ScooterF15 wrote:
>
> To follow up on this thread, I found the name of the product I used
> for the baggage door seal described below. I just checked and my
> local Home Depot has it on the shelf next to the other weather
> stripping. It is made by Frost King, it's called X-treme Rubber
> Weather Seal (3/8" wide 1/8" thick), product number "WhiteV23W".
>
> Jim
> N312JE
>
>
> [quote="ScooterF15"]I ended up using some that I purchased at Home
> Depot. I initially bought a roll of door seal that was the gray
> colored foam with a rectangular cross section. I bought the
> thinnest one available and it just wouldn't work because it was to
> thick.
>
> I found a different style that worked perfectly on an adjacent shelf
> at Home Depot: the box is out at the hangar so I can't give you a
> brand/model name right now, but it is made of extremely soft tan
> colored foam that squishes flat very well. Also the cross section
> has 3 ridges (it kind of looks like this: /// ), so there isn't as
> much material to begin with. As far as my passengers can tell (I've
> never ridden back there) it is sealed perfectly and allows for easy
> opening and closing of the door.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE
>
>
> In a message dated 1/13/2008 7:46:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, speckter@comcast.net
> writes:
>
>>
>> I know the question has been asked before, but a search did not
>> produce any answers. What door seal works with the baggage
>> door. I got some from Lowes but it is too thick and McMaster
>> doesnt show any the right size. Suggestions from all you
>> flying guys?
>>
>> Gary
>> 40274
>
>
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape (http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
> ) in the new year.
>
>> [b]
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194812#194812
>
>
Message 34
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Actually, come here and we will open a can of Whoop A** :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Saylor" <Dave@AirCraftersLLC.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:25:08 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
>>My own cabin top has been stress tested by two eight year old boys<<
Drop test, shmop-test...I can just hear your response, Rick--in an even,
thoughtful tone, "Now boys, come on down from there and let's have some
cocoa"...
Dave
Boy 8, Girl (1)5
Do Not Archive
Message 35
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John,=0A=0ASounds ominously like this should be coming from John C.
John, who while building an RV-10, really should be building a Lancair sinc
e he has soooo many issues with the design decisions that Van's has made fo
r the RV-10. He has found fault with many of Van's design decisions and ho
lds the Lancair up as the model that Van's should emulate. Is this such a
good idea when comparable Lancairs are dropping out of the sky at recent ra
te of ONE a month? =0A=0ALet me try to put this as delicate as I can;
adding a rollbar and bush tires to an RV-10 is just about the dumbest thi
ng I've heard come across this forum. The purpose of a roll cage is to sup
port a structure when inverted if the normal material would otherwise colla
pse. Take a look at the Second issue 2004 issue of the RVAtor page 7. The
re you will see a picture of an RV-10 inverted with the aluminum buckling a
nd the cabin top FULLY in tact. I can see all type of unintended consequen
ces with that mod.=0A=0AAs to your list of criticisms, the door desig
n is probably the only valid one. They others are just opinions. And as w
e all know, opinions without engineering data or facts to support those opi
nions, is just noise.=0A=0AFrom my running tally, the following is ju
st some of the things he has issues with; Glue used on windows, Rudder peda
ls, Door handles, Plastic Brake lines, Matco Brakes, 1100 tubing for fuel a
nd brake lines, etc. As he should be building a Lancair, I think maybe Tim
James should be building a Murphy Moose. =0A=0A=0AWilliam=0Ah
ttp://nerv10.com/wcurtis/ =0A=0A-------- Original Message --------
=0A> Dave actually has an interesting and worthy point. It's not so much a
bout=0A> the SB, I think, as about some of the engineering decisions. T
he plane is a=0A> good airplane, and certainly every plane design has so
me unforeseen issues=0A> that must be field addressed. That's no proble
m. It's also not about how=0A> big or small the pieces are, since some
very small pieces in this plane=0A> serve very important functions...thi
nk cotter pins. =0A> =0A> However, there are more than a few design
issues that leave one scratching=0A> the bald spot. Doors that rip off
when accidentally opening in flight (it=0A> will happen many times with
in any fleet of planes, not just the RV-10, and=0A> give the flex within
the cabin and doors, should have been an anticipated=0A> event leading
to a more airworthy design), almost certainly causing HS=0A> damage in t
he process. Too few ribs in the HS to sustain bird (or door=0A> strikes
). An odd "discontinuity" in the trim tabs for some unknown reason=0A>
(at least to me, is this a means of addressing a problem in handling at low
,=0A> high power speeds?) not actually understood that might be contribu
ting to=0A> what stresses. Doors that do not have a second safety catch
, especially=0A> given their lack of aerodynamics when opened in flight.
Brakes that are not=0A> vented and of a mass that is correspondent to
the size and possible uses of=0A> the plane. A lack of a cage or simple
roll bar to augment what is a=0A> questionable structural component of
the fuselage, namely the fiberglass=0A> top. Brake master cylinders tha
t stick out so feet can hit them, possibly=0A> causing some type of leak
(I've never understood this in all of Van's=0A> planes) There are more
, I'm sure. =0A> =0A> Tim James has a -10 with a roll bar, as well
as a two-stop door catch, both=0A> easy fixes to the current design. Pa
ul Grimstad has developed a sensible=0A> (and beautiful) rudder pedal an
d brake assembly replacement. We're waiting=0A> for a truly structural
cabin top, but a roll bar would suffice. The=0A> innovators are out the
re addressing the shortcomings, which will be=0A> identified as we move
forward. Eventually they will be addressed, one at a=0A> time, leading
to a better platform, but being addressed by the builder=0A> community.
Someone will come up with better doors, I'm sure. I hope.=0A> Maybe a
whole replacement for cabin top and doors. =0A> =0A> Back to Dave's
point. I think we need to evaluate each issue and address=0A> them, on
e by one, as a flying community. We need to question each and every=0A>
one, which, by his question, Dave does. It's not an insurance issue. His
=0A> question was to shine a questioning light on a design issue. Is th
ere=0A> something else going on here that we need to understand, and doe
s this=0A> replacement part fix the inherent problem or is it a band-aid
? Yes, the=0A> fact that a piece was sent out to all registered users i
ndicates a serious=0A> problem, and we all are happy that the problem wa
s caught and a quick=0A> response came forth. What about the others? I
find the door issue one of a=0A> nature that should not have to be addr
essed by each builder alone, nor by=0A> the builder community, but by th
e engineers at Van's. =0A> =0A> My plea is that, if a builder finds
something or knows of something, that it=0A> be shared with all, especi
ally if they have come up with a fix! I'll try to=0A> get good pictures
of Tim's roll bar and double catch door latch, and perhaps=0A> whatever
measurements are needed, along with a parts list for posting. If=0A> y
ou're using this list while building but do not contribute ideas and=0A>
discussions, please think about starting to do so. There aren't that many
=0A> who take the time to post; we need everyone's help and good ideas.
=0A> =0A> Thanks, Dave, for having the courage to open this thread.
And, thanks to=0A> all for their sincere, non-flammable replies. A gr
eat community. =0A> =0A> Have fun at OSH. Take lots of pictures!
Share! =0A> =0A> John J =0A> =0A> =0A> _____ =0A>
=0A> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com=0A> [mailto:owner-rv
10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam=0A> Sent: Wednesd
ay, July 23, 2008 8:59 PM=0A> To: rv10-list@matronics.com=0A> Subject
: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1=0A> =0A> =0A> With all due respect, I k
now I have to do the SB, and I will, but if the=0A> empennage is that in
clined to come off this airplane without those two=0A> small pieces of
aluminum installed, I wouldn't fly it after they were=0A> installed!
=0A> =0A> Dave Leikam=0A> RV-10 #40496=0A> N89DA (Reserved)=0A
> Muskego, WI=0A> =0A> do not archive=0A> =0A> ----- Original M
essage ----- =0A> From: McGANN, Ron <mailto:ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
=0A> To: rv10-list@matronics.com =0A> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008
7:01 PM=0A> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1=0A> =0A> =0A> I p
refer to remove the empennage myself, in the hangar - rather than have it
=0A> do so on its own, at 10000'.=0A> =0A> =0A> _____ =0A
> =0A> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com=0A> [mailto:owner-r
v10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam=0A> Sent: Thursd
ay, 24 July 2008 8:22 AM=0A> To: RV-10 matronics=0A> Subject: RV10-Li
st: Sb 08-6-1=0A> =0A> =0A> What if I never do the SB on the tailc
one of my plane?=0A> =0A> Fire away!=0A> =0A> Dave Leikam
=0A> RV-10 #40496=0A> N89DA (Reserved)=0A> Muskego, WI=0A> =0A>
=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
=0A> =0A> ics.com=0A> =0A> .matronics.com/contribution=0A>
=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> "Warning:=0A> =0A> The inform
ation contained in this email and any attached files is=0A> =0A> conf
idential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended=0A>
=0A> recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any=0A>
=0A> attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this ema
il=0A> =0A> in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care
has been=0A> =0A> taken to ensure this email and its attachments are
virus free,=0A> =0A> however, any loss or damage incurred in using t
his email is not the=0A> =0A> sender's responsibility. It is your re
sponsibility to ensure virus=0A> =0A> checks are completed before ins
talling any data sent in this email to=0A> =0A> your computer."=0A
> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> href="http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com=0A> /Navigator?RV1
0-List=0A> =0A> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.ma
tronics.com=0A> =0A> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h
ttp://www.matronics.com/c =0A
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 OSH Picnic |
John,
Sorry the timing doesn't quite work. We've talked about a couple more during the
week but haven't firmed up any plans yet. Of course, there's always the smaller,
ad hoc events that seem to happen almost every night!
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194821#194821
Message 37
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| Subject: | Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? |
Pascal, when an AN470 universal or an AN426 countersink rivet hole is
enlarged or elongated, the next step is to drill for a OOPs rivet which
has an NAS designation. They are designed to hide the travesty. I have
trays of them at Paul Grimstad's (no reflection on his drilling
prowess). I cannot recall the ID number but Paul could fill you in. My
trays are -3, -4 and -5's.
The technique of drilling, removing and re-installing comes to all who
acquire the Repairman Certificate. Those who use Professional
Gunslingers won' know what they are missing.
John (over night in Miles City, Montana enroute to the BIG ONE or
Aviation Mecca '08.)
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of pascal
Sent: Thu 7/24/2008 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470
rivet?
too large to fit the old rivet?
I would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much
chewing
gum you use! ;-)
Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if so 1 or 2
seem
fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big to fit the
same length in than simply go up one length of the rivet aka AD4704-4
to
AD4704-5, etc..
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jay Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?
<jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
>
> What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out
hole
> gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The
> others might be fun to try on someone else's project.
>
> Cheers,
> Jay
>
> 1) AN3 + washer/nut
> 2) #8 pan head screw + washer/nut
> 3) duct tape
> 4) chewing gum
> 5) proseal
> 6) bailing wire
> 7) more primer
> 8) a good place for an adel clamp
>
> Cheers,
> Jay
>
>
Message 38
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OUCH!!! Eloquently put as usual William... lol... Will we see you next week...east
coast attitude and all? :)
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:38:53 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
John,
Sounds ominously like this should be coming from John C. John, who while building
an RV-10, really should be building a Lancair since he has soooo many issues
with the design decisions that Van's has made for the RV-10. He has found
fault with many of Van's design decisions and holds the Lancair up as the model
that Van's should emulate. Is this such a good idea when comparable Lancairs
are dropping out of the sky at recent rate of ONE a month?
Let me try to put this as delicate as I can; adding a rollbar and bush tires to
an RV-10 is just about the dumbest thing I've heard come across this forum.
The purpose of a roll cage is to support a structure when inverted if the normal
material would otherwise collapse. Take a look at the Second issue 2004 issue
of the RVAtor page 7. There you will see a picture of an RV-10 inverted
with the aluminum buckling and the cabin top FULLY in tact. I can see all type
of unintended consequences with that mod.
As to your list of criticisms, the door design is probably the only valid one.
They others are just opinions. And as we all know, opinions without engineering
data or facts to support those opinions, is just noise.
>From my running tally, the following is just some of the things he has issues
with; Glue used on windows, Rudder pedals, Door handles, Plastic Brake lines,
Matco Brakes, 1100 tubing for fuel and brake lines, etc. As he should be building
a Lancair, I think maybe Tim James should be building a Murphy Moose.
William
http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/
-------- Original Message --------
> Dave actually has an interesting and worthy point. It's not so much about
> the SB, I think, as about some of the engineering decisions. The plane is a
> good airplane, and certainly every plane design has some unforeseen issues
> that must be field addressed. That's no problem. It's also not about how
> big or small the pieces are, since some very small pieces in this plane
> serve very important functions...think cotter pins.
>
> However, there are more than a few design issues that leave one scratching
> the bald spot. Doors that rip off when accidentally opening in flight (it
> will happen many times within any fleet of planes, not just the RV-10, and
> give the flex within the cabin and doors, should have been an anticipated
> event leading to a more airworthy design), almost certainly causing HS
> damage in the process. Too few ribs in the HS to sustain bird (or door
> strikes). An odd "discontinuity" in the trim tabs for some unknown reason
> (at least to me, is this a means of addressing a problem in handling at low,
> high power speeds?) not actually understood that might be contributing to
> what stresses. Doors that do not have a second safety catch, especially
> given their lack of aerodynamics when opened in flight. Brakes that are not
> vented and of a mass that is correspondent to the size and possible uses of
> the plane. A lack of a cage or simple roll bar to augment what is a
> questionable structural component of the fuselage, namely the fiberglass
> top. Brake master cylinders that stick out so feet can hit them, possibly
> causing some type of leak (I've never understood this in all of Van's
> planes) There are more, I'm sure.
>
> Tim James has a -10 with a roll bar, as well as a two-stop door catch, both
> easy fixes to the current design. Paul Grimstad has developed a sensible
> (and beautiful) rudder pedal and brake assembly replacement. We're waiting
> for a truly structural cabin top, but a roll bar would suffice. The
> innovators are out there addressing the shortcomings, which will be
> identified as we move forward. Eventually they will be addressed, one at a
> time, leading to a better platform, but being addressed by the builder
> community. Someone will come up with better doors, I'm sure. I hope.
> Maybe a whole replacement for cabin top and doors.
>
> Back to Dave's point. I think we need to evaluate each issue and address
> them, one by one, as a flying community. We need to question each and every
> one, which, by his question, Dave does. It's not an insurance issue. His
> question was to shine a questioning light on a design issue. Is there
> something else going on here that we need to understand, and does this
> replacement part fix the inherent problem or is it a band-aid? Yes, the
> fact that a piece was sent out to all registered users indicates a serious
> problem, and we all are happy that the problem was caught and a quick
> response came forth. What about the others? I find the door issue one of a
> nature that should not have to be addressed by each builder alone, nor by
> the builder community, but by the engineers at Van's.
>
> My plea is that, if a builder finds something or knows of something, that it
> be shared with all, especially if they have come up with a fix! I'll try to
> get good pictures of Tim's roll bar and double catch door latch, and perhaps
> whatever measurements are needed, along with a parts list for posting. If
> you're using this list while building but do not contribute ideas and
> discussions, please think about starting to do so. There aren't that many
> who take the time to post; we need everyone's help and good ideas.
>
> Thanks, Dave, for having the courage to open this thread. And, thanks to
> all for their sincere, non-flammable replies. A great community.
>
> Have fun at OSH. Take lots of pictures! Share!
>
> John J
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:59 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
>
>
> With all due respect, I know I have to do the SB, and I will, but if the
> empennage is that inclined to come off this airplane without those two
> small pieces of aluminum installed, I wouldn't fly it after they were
> installed!
>
> Dave Leikam
> RV-10 #40496
> N89DA (Reserved)
> Muskego, WI
>
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: McGANN, Ron <mailto:ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:01 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
>
>
> I prefer to remove the empennage myself, in the hangar - rather than have it
> do so on its own, at 10000'.
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Leikam
> Sent: Thursday, 24 July 2008 8:22 AM
> To: RV-10 matronics
> Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1
>
>
> What if I never do the SB on the tailcone of my plane?
>
> Fire away!
>
> Dave Leikam
> RV-10 #40496
> N89DA (Reserved)
> Muskego, WI
>
>
>
>
>
> p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
> ics.com
>
> .matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
> "Warning:
>
> The information contained in this email and any attached files is
>
> confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended
>
> recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any
>
> attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email
>
> in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been
>
> taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free,
>
> however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the
>
> sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus
>
> checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to
>
> your computer."
>
>
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
> /Navigator?RV10-List
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 39
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| Subject: | RV-10 OSH Picnic |
Hi Bob
There is a 50/50 chance my daughter and I will be at KOSH in time for some
BBQ. If we make it, is there a number we can call in advance?
Cheers
Les Kearney
& Alex
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: July-23-08 8:00 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 OSH Picnic
Time to spend some of generous donation from Steve DiNieri and Bob Leffler!
We've decided to kick off the week with a BBQ Saturday evening for the every
arrival crowd. RV-10 builders, flyers and families are all invited. If
you're a serious wannbe we won't turn you away :)
Let's plan on about 6:00 at RV-10 HQ located at 55th and Lindbergh in Camp
Scholler.
Please let us know if you'll be able to stop by so we can insure we don't
run short of food & drink.
Bob, Susan, Gary and Brenda
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194646#194646
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet? |
Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470
rivet?certainly good points and thanks to Tim's recommendation I have a
draw of Oops rivets myself. In the SB case however these are 470-4
rivets not 470-3 than require an Oops to repair. Jay is looking for an
option for his larger 470-4 rivet, I have used one size larger with -4
rivets. Done slowly has shown good results.
Also as a reminder from the Section 5, Jay was right with his two
options- "One of the common calls we get is "I had to drill out a bad
rivet and now the hole is oversize. What do I do?". Sometimes this is
done multiple times in the same hole and now the hole is so large that
the builder has to use a bolt and nut instead of a rivet."
Additionally for us gunslingers, with the technique of drilling maybe
shouldn't be drilling to start with:
EXCERPT from Alcoa Aluminum Rivet Book, dated 1984.
"The standards to which driven rivets should conform are frequently
uncertain. In addition to dimensions and perfection of shape,
inspection is concerned with whether the drive head is coaxial with the
shank (not "clinched") and whether there is excessive
cracking of the heads. It has been determined that even badly cracked
heads are satisfactory from the standpoint of static strength,
fatigue strength and resistance to corrosion. (Poorly set and cracked)
rivet heads were tested in tension to determine how well
formed a head has to be in order to develop full strength. The tensile
strengths of all the rivets were within five per cent of the
strongest. The test indicated that minor deviations from the
theoretically desired shape of head are not cause for concern or
replacement.
The second rivet that is driven in any one hole likely to be more
defective than the first because the hole is enlarged
and rivet will be more likely to buckle and form an imperfect head."
I stand by my using a larger rivet in this case because we HAD to drill
and rivet again. I did it and it worked just fine.
Pascal
From: John Cox
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470
rivet?
Pascal, when an AN470 universal or an AN426 countersink rivet hole is
enlarged or elongated, the next step is to drill for a OOPs rivet which
has an NAS designation. They are designed to hide the travesty. I have
trays of them at Paul Grimstad's (no reflection on his drilling
prowess). I cannot recall the ID number but Paul could fill you in. My
trays are -3, -4 and -5's.
The technique of drilling, removing and re-installing comes to all who
acquire the Repairman Certificate. Those who use Professional
Gunslingers won' know what they are missing.
John (over night in Miles City, Montana enroute to the BIG ONE or
Aviation Mecca '08.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of pascal
Sent: Thu 7/24/2008 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470
rivet?
too large to fit the old rivet?
I would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much
chewing
gum you use! ;-)
Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if so 1 or 2
seem
fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big to fit the
same length in than simply go up one length of the rivet aka AD4704-4
to
AD4704-5, etc..
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jay Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?
<jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
>
> What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out
hole
> gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The
> others might be fun to try on someone else's project.
>
> Cheers,
> Jay
>
> 1) AN3 + washer/nut
> 2) #8 pan head screw + washer/nut
> 3) duct tape
> 4) chewing gum
> 5) proseal
> 6) bailing wire
> 7) more primer
> 8) a good place for an adel clamp
>
> Cheers,
> Jay
>
>
&ghref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matron
ic
&href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site bsp; -Matt
Dralle, List
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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