---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/07/08: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:35 AM - Re: Firewall insulation (Chris, Susie, Darcy) 2. 03:33 AM - Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS (David McNeill) 3. 04:58 AM - Re: Firewall insulation (Jesse Saint) 4. 04:58 AM - Re: Firewall insulation (David Maib) 5. 05:11 AM - Re: Firewall insulation (dmaib@mac.com) 6. 07:10 AM - Re: new products (Lenny Iszak) 7. 07:42 AM - Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (Roger Lee) 8. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: new products (Don McDonald) 9. 08:35 AM - Re: Firewall insulation (Douglas, Brian S) 10. 08:52 AM - Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (Douglas, Brian S) 11. 09:33 AM - Re: Firewall insulation (pascal) 12. 09:39 AM - Re: Firewall insulation (William Curtis) 13. 11:31 AM - Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS (RobHickman@AOL.COM) 14. 11:48 AM - Powder coated parts (Ed Godfrey) 15. 12:06 PM - Re: Powder coated parts (pascal) 16. 12:13 PM - Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH (johngoodman) 17. 12:16 PM - Re: Powder coated parts (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 18. 12:23 PM - Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS (johngoodman) 19. 01:11 PM - Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (johngoodman) 20. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH (Tim Olson) 21. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS (RobHickman@aol.com) 22. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 23. 02:28 PM - Pictures N110DV (richard sipp) 24. 03:10 PM - Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS (Douglas, Brian S) 25. 03:55 PM - Elevator root rib and gusset (Bill Cannon) 26. 03:55 PM - Re: new products (dmaib@mac.com) 27. 04:14 PM - Re: Elevator root rib and gusset (Jesse Saint) 28. 04:20 PM - Re: Elevator root rib and gusset (Bill Cannon) 29. 05:02 PM - LSE Tach (Sam Marlow) 30. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (Kelly McMullen) 31. 05:18 PM - Re: Pictures N110DV (Bob Leffler) 32. 05:47 PM - Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS (johngoodman) 33. 05:52 PM - Re: Pictures N110DV (Lew Gallagher) 34. 06:40 PM - Re: LSE Tach (Tim Olson) 35. 06:43 PM - Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (Geico266) 36. 07:34 PM - Re: LSE Tach (Sam Marlow) 37. 08:49 PM - Re: Pictures N110DV (greghale) 38. 09:32 PM - LSE Tach (Dave Saylor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:21 AM PST US From: "Chris, Susie, Darcy" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall insulation I used coolmat on the firewall side only due to thinking about tunnel heat problems however the tunnel does not even get warm so maybe it was not needed . It is winter out here though. I also got rid of those huge heat muffs that are on the exhausts and just put standard rap around muf saving at least a couple of Kilos up the front and some perfomance improvement maybe. Again thinking of tunnel heat which may or may not be a problem to sum. rgards chris VH-ICY 20 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "AirMike" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: RV10-List: Firewall insulation > > Looking for suggestions for a firewall blanket to put on the engine side > of the firewall. > > I heard a comment at OSH that it would be good (Cooler in Summer) to > insulate both the inside and outside of the firewall > > -------- > OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 > Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197071#197071 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:25 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS All systems have some dependency; its in the math. The key is using two systems with different dependencies or backup round instruments. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:56 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS I think Rob was mentioning that list because those are things that the AFS HAS and most/all of the others lack. Either that or he's not much of a salesman. :-) do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 On Aug 6, 2008, at 10:11 PM, pascal wrote: Rob; Please tell us your developing all this for future releases. I am already committed to get your AOA and 3500 or DECK so that would be great news! Thanks for the info. Pascal From: RobHickman@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:00 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS In a message dated 8/6/2008 12:27:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder@sausen.net writes: Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. We are currently working on it and it will be in a future release. You should consider adding the following to your list of EFIS manufacturer glaring holes: 1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach. 2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS. 3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free. 4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps. We got back yesterday from Oshkosh in our RV-10 and it now has 61 hours on it, the more I fly it the more impressed I am with it. The weather, traffic, built in oxygen, large moving map display, autopilot, and all that room make it amazingly comfortable to fly on long trips. Rob Hickman N402RH Flying _____ Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos . title="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List to follow link" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:08 AM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall insulation I use an insulation sold at www.summitracing.com for about $128/sheet, I think. Just remember that if you insulate the inside and the outside, inspection of the firewall itself will be very difficult down the road. Contact me off-list and I will try to look it up from my past order(s). do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 On Aug 7, 2008, at 2:14 AM, AirMike wrote: > > Looking for suggestions for a firewall blanket to put on the engine > side of the firewall. > > I heard a comment at OSH that it would be good (Cooler in Summer) to > insulate both the inside and outside of the firewall > > -------- > OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 > Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197071#197071 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:08 AM PST US From: David Maib Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall insulation We have installed Kool Mat from Aircraft Spruce. Not flying yet, so can't report on it. It is pretty heavy stuff, but that is probably a good thing in our case since we have the air conditioner behind the baggage compartment. [URL=http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1405vk3.jpg][IMG] http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1665/img1405vk3.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL] David Maib 40559 endless finishing On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:14 AM, AirMike wrote: Looking for suggestions for a firewall blanket to put on the engine side of the firewall. I heard a comment at OSH that it would be good (Cooler in Summer) to insulate both the inside and outside of the firewall -------- OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197071#197071 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:05 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Firewall insulation From: "dmaib@mac.com" Sorry that photo link did not work. Hopefully this will. -------- David Maib RV-10 #40559 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197098#197098 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1405_299.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:38 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: new products From: "Lenny Iszak" David, Here's the drawing. See attachment. Lenny #40803 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197110#197110 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rudder_trim_drawing_426.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:19 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! From: "Roger Lee" Hi Everyone, Every website I posted on and I sent the letters to Flight Design have people speaking up in support. I have received dozens of emails in support and that is just since last night. One voice will dye, but thousands may be heard. Everyone, Don't sit ideally and complain. 1-2 minutes of your time is all anyone is asking. It's your future and your time to offer your hand in a worthwhile effort to help shape it. Do it for yourself if not for anyone else. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197126#197126 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:12 AM PST US From: Don McDonald Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: new products So has anyone installed this.... looks like it would work just fine.-- - Thanks Don McDonald-- #40636-- Finishing the finishing --- On Thu, 8/7/08, Lenny Iszak wrote: From: Lenny Iszak Subject: RV10-List: Re: new products David, Here's the drawing. See attachment. Lenny #40803 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197110#197110 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rudder_trim_drawing_426.jpg =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Firewall insulation From: "Douglas, Brian S" Pegasus Aeromarine has a firewall blanket as well. I don't know how his compares to koolmat or others except to say it's sort of expensive. http://www.pegasusaeromarine.com/aircraftSystems/rv10/index.html -Brian Iowa City, IA #40497 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:57 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall insulation > > > I use an insulation sold at www.summitracing.com for about $128/sheet, > I think. Just remember that if you insulate the inside and the > outside, inspection of the firewall itself will be very difficult down > the road. Contact me off-list and I will try to look it up from my > past order(s). > > do not archive > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > jesse@saintaviation.com > Cell: 352-427-0285 > Fax: 815-377-3694 > > On Aug 7, 2008, at 2:14 AM, AirMike wrote: > > > > > Looking for suggestions for a firewall blanket to put on the engine > > side of the firewall. > > > > I heard a comment at OSH that it would be good (Cooler in Summer) to > > insulate both the inside and outside of the firewall > > > > -------- > > OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 > > Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197071#197071 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:30 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! From: "Douglas, Brian S" According to the Lycoming folks at OSH, they're pushing for an ATSM 93 octane mogas standard. We'll see what comes of it, but I'm lead to believe the legislative exemption that allows the use of leaded fuel in airplanes expires in 2010. Supposedly the EPA is interested getting the ball rolling on an alternative fuel that doesn't compromise safety, usability, etc etc. Again, we'll see.... -Brian Iowa City, IA #40497 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 7:46 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! > > > If you are happy with just 100LL stop here. You won't like where this > is going. > > This effects us all even in other countries because one tends to follow > the other at some point. > If you are tired of someone saying we can't have 91 octane, read on. > It's time to pick a side and take 5 minutes to email. Our lives as > people are good because someone didn't just say ok. Some took the time > to make change and made it better for all of us. If we choose to sit on > the sideline and just go along then we deserve what we get. I would > implore all to take a minute and email these two people and any other > fuel administrator in other companies. I will post on as many aviation > websites as possible and I would you all to pick a side and stand up to > be heard and maybe, just maybe we might effect change. I for one don't > want to roll over. You are about to read a bulletin about the use of > Chevron ground fuel verses aviation fuel. Then I have a response. > > Don't sit back and pick my memo apart, use that time to write your own > and be heard. Post this on all your aviation websites. Let them hear a > nation wide voice. > > Send your emails to: > > LIMG(at)chevron.com > kayalbitz(at)chevron.com > > or any other fuel company administrator. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated > Rotax Service Center > 520-574-1080 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197015#197015 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/2008_04_2008_04_bulletin_2008_04_che > vron_position_autogas_for_aviation_use_449.pdf > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ryan_memo_727.doc > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:57 AM PST US From: "pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall insulation Also from summit racing, I am following Chris Johnson in the use of Lizardskin spray on insulation. I'll be putting it on both sides of the firewall. Takes care of the corrosion issues so no need for priming. Pretty inexpensive when compared to mats. http://www.lizardskin.com/pages/testimonials2.php Pascal -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jesse Saint" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:57 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall insulation > > I use an insulation sold at www.summitracing.com for about $128/sheet, I > think. Just remember that if you insulate the inside and the outside, > inspection of the firewall itself will be very difficult down the road. > Contact me off-list and I will try to look it up from my past order(s). > > do not archive > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > jesse@saintaviation.com > Cell: 352-427-0285 > Fax: 815-377-3694 > > On Aug 7, 2008, at 2:14 AM, AirMike wrote: > >> >> Looking for suggestions for a firewall blanket to put on the engine side >> of the firewall. >> >> I heard a comment at OSH that it would be good (Cooler in Summer) to >> insulate both the inside and outside of the firewall >> >> -------- >> OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 >> Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197071#197071 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Firewall insulation From: "William Curtis" Wow, I thought the Soundex Products stuff for the RV10 was expensive. These guys must think they are selling to the Lancair crowd. The picture on the web page kind of also reinforces that. http://www.soundexproducts.com/order.html William http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/ -------- Original Message -------- > X-Rcpt-To: > > > Pegasus Aeromarine has a firewall blanket as well. I don't know how his > compares to koolmat or others except to say it's sort of expensive. > > http://www.pegasusaeromarine.com/aircraftSystems/rv10/index.html > > > -Brian > > Iowa City, IA > #40497 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- > > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint > > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:57 AM > > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Firewall insulation > > > > > > I use an insulation sold at www.summitracing.com for about $128/sheet, > > I think. Just remember that if you insulate the inside and the > > outside, inspection of the firewall itself will be very difficult down > > the road. Contact me off-list and I will try to look it up from my > > past order(s). > > > > do not archive > > > > Jesse Saint > > Saint Aviation, Inc. > > jesse@saintaviation.com > > Cell: 352-427-0285 > > Fax: 815-377-3694 > > > > On Aug 7, 2008, at 2:14 AM, AirMike wrote: > > > > > > > > Looking for suggestions for a firewall blanket to put on the engine > > > side of the firewall. > > > > > > I heard a comment at OSH that it would be good (Cooler in Summer) to > > > insulate both the inside and outside of the firewall > > > > > > -------- > > > OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 > > > Q/B Kit - exited cabin top/door purgatory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197071#197071 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:41 AM PST US From: RobHickman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS In a message dated 8/7/2008 3:35:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dlm46007@cox.net writes: All systems have some dependency; its in the math. The key is using two systems with different dependencies or backup round instruments. There is a major difference with how much dependency different AHRS designs use and how they will perform under different conditions and with the loss of aiding. The problem is that the MEMS sensors that are used in AHRS designs drift with temperature, vibration and age. There is a major difference in how well the different MEMS gyros behave under changing temperature, age and vibration and is somewhat related to the cost of the sensors. To make an AHRS that performs well one must understand how the sensors will perform under these conditions for each AHRS being manufactured. The less accurate the sensors are and the less predictable their behavior, more aiding is required. Crossbow puts every one of their sensors through a 12-hour temperature calibration cycle three different times to map how each sensor performs. Every AHRS is calibrated on a dual-axis ovenized rate table (cost $250,000 each) and the Magnetometer is calibrated using an expensive Helmholtz cage. The same basic Crossbow AHRS design that we use is also being used in many certified aircraft and even regulated Air Taxi operations. I think Rob was mentioning that list because those are things that the AFS HAS and most/all of the others lack. Either that or he's not much of a salesman. :-) We have had all the items below for a long time. 1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach. 2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS. 3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free. 4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps. Rob Hickman Advanced Flight Systems N402RH RV-10 Flying **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:20 AM PST US From: Ed Godfrey Subject: RV10-List: Powder coated parts Listers, Does anyone have a suggestion as to what should be done to a part that has been treated with powdercoat, but has had some scraped off at an edge. Ed Godfrey 40717 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:09 PM PST US From: "pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Powder coated parts I put Rustolieum over the area and painted it. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Godfrey" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:47 AM Subject: RV10-List: Powder coated parts > > Listers, > Does anyone have a suggestion as to what should be done to a part > that has been treated with powdercoat, but has had some scraped off at > an edge. > > Ed Godfrey > 40717 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:31 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH From: "johngoodman" Tim, You've brought up something I've been meaning to ask. My brake lines touch the notch (I'm not a very good tube bender). I've been planning on enlarging the notch before I close it up. Anything else I should know or avoid? John Tim Olson wrote: > Dave, > > Ouch....that sucks about the rudder cables. > You know, the worst thing I think I saw at OSH was when > that first-flying unpainted one showed up what....3 years > ago? A whole bundle of wires was routed down > into the tunnel where the brake lines come up through the > notched cutout in the tunnel cover. That whole bundle > of wires was laying against the cutout edge of that notch > in the cover....and over time it was definitely going to > cut into some of those wires. I cringed when I saw it. > They had no grommet or protector on that cutout at all. > I always wondered how long that one would last. Not sure > what happened to it after it had the hard landing that > crunched it pretty good from what I heard. > > But yeah, if it were me, I'd be thrilled to get someone pointing > out safety issues with my plane. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > nukeflyboy wrote: > > > > > > > I just finished putting the rudder cables in mine so this caught my > > eye. One of the 10s at OSH had its rudder cable aft plastic tubes > > (that protect the skin and rear bulkhead) pushed too far forward. > > The cable will start sawing the skin. I never saw the owner, and > > some guys don't appreciate the feedback. For me, you can never have > > too many eyes on a project. It is cheap insurance and good QC. > > > > > > > -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197179#197179 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Powder coated parts From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Van's sells some touchup paint in a bottle that is an exact color match for the powdercoat. http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1218136490-384-99& browse=misc&product=tu-paint Bob N442PM -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Godfrey Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: RV10-List: Powder coated parts Listers, Does anyone have a suggestion as to what should be done to a part that has been treated with powdercoat, but has had some scraped off at an edge. Ed Godfrey 40717 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:31 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS From: "johngoodman" "1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach. " I find this statement a little strange, although I'm not familiar with the AFS AoA system. Angle of Attack is Angle of Attack; it doesn't matter if the flaps are up or down. The stall indication should always be at actual stall. At least that's true with analog systems. Does the AFS system do something to the raw data? John "old Navy AoA user" -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197182#197182 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:34 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! From: "johngoodman" "...but I'm lead to believe the legislative exemption that allows the use of leaded fuel in airplanes expires in 2010." This is correct. The 30 year waiver expires in 2010. It's part of a world-wide treaty banning TEL. To my knowledge, there is only one manufacturer of TEL left, and it is located somewhere in the UK. The UK has already said they will enforce the ban, which means that the source will be gone. The outcome is obvious. They will start filling those AvGas trucks with ordinary 91-93 octane high test (although they might call it something special). Ethanol is mixed in after manufacture, so there will be a chain-of-control while the fuel is in transit to ensure it's Ethanol free (assuming the various governments allow aviation an exemption). Expect to pay plenty for that chain-of control. You will then be forced to de-rate your engine. I would expect the engine manufacturers to come out with new horsepower and limitations for their existing engines. The only real issue will be Takeoff power and Go around. Cruise should be the same. I guess climb settings might be effected, as well. I guess the Warbirds at Oshkosh will be a little less impressive to boot. I've heard that there is a Purdue University group starting a thing called Swiftfuel, or something like that. It's supposed to be a bio-fuel that can achieve 104 octane - we'll see. My uneducated guess is that the final solution should be in place by October of 2009, to ensure an uninterrupted supply chain. Whatever the final solution is, the manufacturers will need to make some kind of commitment before the end of this year. Have you ever noticed that panic deadlines are the only way Americans get anything done? John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197189#197189 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:34 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH Well, If you need to enlarge it, then great, but you'll still want to find some grommet material to put on the edge anywhere near where hoses and wires could touch. Additionally, with solid lines, you need to make sure things are not overly rigid. In some applications, like high pressure air lines, you actually put a service loop as a strain relieve in the air hose, so that there is plenty of flex available. That's my main concern with some of the lines that we have to run with the kit. If it can flex over a large area, great, but you don't want any tubing wiggling all in one focused area....solid tubing, I mean. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive johngoodman wrote: > > Tim, > You've brought up something I've been meaning to ask. My brake lines touch the notch (I'm not a very good tube bender). I've been planning on enlarging the notch before I close it up. Anything else I should know or avoid? > John > > > > Tim Olson wrote: >> Dave, >> >> Ouch....that sucks about the rudder cables. >> You know, the worst thing I think I saw at OSH was when >> that first-flying unpainted one showed up what....3 years >> ago? A whole bundle of wires was routed down >> into the tunnel where the brake lines come up through the >> notched cutout in the tunnel cover. That whole bundle >> of wires was laying against the cutout edge of that notch >> in the cover....and over time it was definitely going to >> cut into some of those wires. I cringed when I saw it. >> They had no grommet or protector on that cutout at all. >> I always wondered how long that one would last. Not sure >> what happened to it after it had the hard landing that >> crunched it pretty good from what I heard. >> >> But yeah, if it were me, I'd be thrilled to get someone pointing >> out safety issues with my plane. >> >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying >> do not archive >> >> >> nukeflyboy wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I just finished putting the rudder cables in mine so this caught my >>> eye. One of the 10s at OSH had its rudder cable aft plastic tubes >>> (that protect the skin and rear bulkhead) pushed too far forward. >>> The cable will start sawing the skin. I never saw the owner, and >>> some guys don't appreciate the feedback. For me, you can never have >>> too many eyes on a project. It is cheap insurance and good QC. >>> >>> >>> > > > -------- > #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished > N711JG reserved > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197179#197179 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:52 PM PST US From: RobHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS In a message dated 8/7/2008 12:26:14 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, johngoodman@earthlink.net writes: I find this statement a little strange, although I'm not familiar with the AFS AoA system. Angle of Attack is Angle of Attack; it doesn't matter if the flaps are up or down. The stall indication should always be at actual stall. At least that's true with analog systems. Does the AFS system do something to the raw data? Best approach, L/D max, and the stalling aoa are a function of the airfoil, if you drop the flaps you change the airfoil shape. Even the Vane based Rite-Angle AOA systems have flap position inputs. I have thee different AOA systems in my RV-4 from two different manufacturers, there is a significant difference in how well they work. Rob Hickman N402RH RV-10 **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:29 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! SwiftFuel is a real thing and is currently being evaluated by the FAA for a drop in replacement of 100LL. It's been developed specifically for 100LL replacement rather than it being a side benefit. Interestingly the feedstock for it is Ethanol but it's a synthetic hydrocarbon once the process is complete so there is no Ethanol remaining. If all the benefits hold true and it can be mass produced, we will be much better off and it will cost less. There have been articles in Avweb and other places about it. More info here: http://www.swiftenterprises.com/ Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:11 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! "...but I'm lead to believe the legislative exemption that allows the use of leaded fuel in airplanes expires in 2010." This is correct. The 30 year waiver expires in 2010. It's part of a world-wide treaty banning TEL. To my knowledge, there is only one manufacturer of TEL left, and it is located somewhere in the UK. The UK has already said they will enforce the ban, which means that the source will be gone. The outcome is obvious. They will start filling those AvGas trucks with ordinary 91-93 octane high test (although they might call it something special). Ethanol is mixed in after manufacture, so there will be a chain-of-control while the fuel is in transit to ensure it's Ethanol free (assuming the various governments allow aviation an exemption). Expect to pay plenty for that chain-of control. You will then be forced to de-rate your engine. I would expect the engine manufacturers to come out with new horsepower and limitations for their existing engines. The only real issue will be Takeoff power and Go around. Cruise should be the same. I guess climb settings might be effected, as well. I guess the Warbirds at Oshkosh will be a little less impressive to boot. I've heard that there is a Purdue University group starting a thing called Swiftfuel, or something like that. It's supposed to be a bio-fuel that can achieve 104 octane - we'll see. My uneducated guess is that the final solution should be in place by October of 2009, to ensure an uninterrupted supply chain. Whatever the final solution is, the manufacturers will need to make some kind of commitment before the end of this year. Have you ever noticed that panic deadlines are the only way Americans get anything done? John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished N711JG reserved ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:17 PM PST US From: "richard sipp" Subject: RV10-List: Pictures N110DV Well, the goal was to have N110DV at OSH this year but we missed it by a couple of days. 40065 is a pretty much standard airplane with Chelton EFIS and Flightline interior. The paint is BASF base/clearcoat. We are based at 3BS Midland, MI I will post the before and after paint&interior weights and CGs in a few days. Flying the airplane after the paint and interior were added makes a noticable difference with the CG moving aft. A couple of minor avionics and interior issues remain and then the traveling will begin! While this is a totally different airplane than the RV4 we built it is a ball to fly and as others have noted should be a very practical cross country machine. Dick Sipp ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS From: "Douglas, Brian S" So I'm not trying to start any EFIS wars or anything but I notice that Dynon has a AOA system: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_AOA.html In reading the points below am I'm to believe that the dynon system doesn't work well with flaps and cannot be used to fly an approach? Again, I'm not trying to start anything but rather I'm trying to understand the relative benefits of the AFS AOA vs the Dynon AOA. Perhaps Rob, or someone else, can shed some light here. -Brian Iowa City, IA #40497 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:01 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS In a message dated 8/6/2008 12:27:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder@sausen.net writes: Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. We are currently working on it and it will be in a future release. You should consider adding the following to your list of EFIS manufacturer glaring holes: 1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach. 2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS. 3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free. 4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps. We got back yesterday from Oshkosh in our RV-10 and it now has 61 hours on it, the more I fly it the more impressed I am with it. The weather, traffic, built in oxygen, large moving map display, autopilot, and all that room make it amazingly comfortable to fly on long trips. Rob Hickman N402RH Flying ________________________________ Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:15 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Elevator root rib and gusset From: "Bill Cannon" Hi, I am to the point of setting the rivets from the root rib to the gusset and can't seem to come up with a good way of doing it. The plans say to rivet the root rib to the rear spar first. I did that but the thing is so tight that I can't get a set straight on the manufactured head either with a squeezer or rivet gun. I have the manufactured head on the outside. If I take out the 3/32 rivets connecting the rear spar to the root rib it would give me a little more room but not sure if it would be enough. Maybe I'm not seeing something. Thanks for any help in advance, Bill Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197216#197216 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010017_135.jpg ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:35 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: new products From: "dmaib@mac.com" Thanks Lenny. do not archive -------- David Maib RV-10 #40559 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197217#197217 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:31 PM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator root rib and gusset What page on the plans? do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 On Aug 7, 2008, at 6:54 PM, Bill Cannon wrote: > > Hi, > > I am to the point of setting the rivets from the root rib to the > gusset and can't seem to come up with a good way of doing it. The > plans say to rivet the root rib to the rear spar first. I did that > but the thing is so tight that I can't get a set straight on the > manufactured head either with a squeezer or rivet gun. I have the > manufactured head on the outside. > > If I take out the 3/32 rivets connecting the rear spar to the root > rib it would give me a little more room but not sure if it would be > enough. > > Maybe I'm not seeing something. > > Thanks for any help in advance, > > Bill > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197216#197216 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010017_135.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:48 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Elevator root rib and gusset From: "Bill Cannon" 9-14 After looking at it again with better lighting I found that with trying all sorts of angles of holding the squeezer I was able to get it. The set on the squeezer did have to ride the edge of the spar but I got two nice shop heads. A little primer touch up where the set rubbed and I'll call that step done. Thanks for the quick reply, Bill Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197222#197222 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:13 PM PST US From: Sam Marlow Subject: RV10-List: LSE Tach Ok guy's, I'm at the end of my rope here, I need help. I've tried everything I can find to make my LSE tach work in conjunction with a Bendix mag. The mag signal to my EIS6000 works just fine, but the Lightspeed tach just won't work. I know some of you have it working, how's it done? ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:36 PM PST US From: "Kelly McMullen" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! Current avgas has exactly the same chain of control. There are other solutions, just each have technical issues. MTBE for example is around 104 octane, but any leaks contaminate soil and water very easily. ETBE is even higher octane, a bit more costly and presumably less of environmental problem. (MTBE is derived from methanol, ETBE from ethanol). Current avgas, minus the TEL can be blended to 96 octane, which is okay for all but turbocharged engines. The IO-540 used in the RV-10 with 8.5 compression will be fine with anything over 91 octane as it was originally certified on 91/96, just like the O-360 with same compression. So main issue is getting suppliers and FBOs to agree with ASTM as to what the standard is going to be. As has been mentioned before, Lycoming is close to having a FADEC system that will incorporate knock sensing and timing adjustment. On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:11 PM, johngoodman wrote: > > "...but I'm lead to believe the legislative exemption that allows the use > of leaded fuel in airplanes expires in 2010." > > This is correct. The 30 year waiver expires in 2010. It's part of a > world-wide treaty banning TEL. To my knowledge, there is only one > manufacturer of TEL left, and it is located somewhere in the UK. The UK has > already said they will enforce the ban, which means that the source will be > gone. > The outcome is obvious. They will start filling those AvGas trucks with > ordinary 91-93 octane high test (although they might call it something > special). Ethanol is mixed in after manufacture, so there will be a > chain-of-control while the fuel is in transit to ensure it's Ethanol free > (assuming the various governments allow aviation an exemption). Expect to > pay plenty for that chain-of control. You will then be forced to de-rate > your engine. I would expect the engine manufacturers to come out with new > horsepower and limitations for their existing engines. The only real issue > will be Takeoff power and Go around. Cruise should be the same. I guess > climb settings might be effected, as well. I guess the Warbirds at Oshkosh > will be a little less impressive to boot. > I've heard that there is a Purdue University group starting a thing called > Swiftfuel, or something like that. It's supposed to be a bio-fuel that can > achieve 104 octane - we'll see. > My uneducated guess is that the final solution should be in place by > October of 2009, to ensure an uninterrupted supply chain. Whatever the final > solution is, the manufacturers will need to make some kind of commitment > before the end of this year. Have you ever noticed that panic deadlines are > the only way Americans get anything done? > > John > > -------- > #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished > N711JG reserved > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197189#197189 > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:23 PM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Pictures N110DV Looks great Dick! So are you happy with the paint shop? I talked with them when they were here in Columbus last fall. They seemed like great people. They helped me get a very nice insurance settlement on my Cherokee. I was heading home on Saturday, when I realized I hadn't seen you or your plane. I was really looking forwarded to seeing it. If you head down to any of the Ohio RVators UFO, please let me know. I want to make sure to be there to see your great looking RV-10. Bob Leffler #40684 Mykitlog.com/rleffler From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of richard sipp Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 5:27 PM Subject: RV10-List: Pictures N110DV Well, the goal was to have N110DV at OSH this year but we missed it by a couple of days. 40065 is a pretty much standard airplane with Chelton EFIS and Flightline interior. The paint is BASF base/clearcoat. We are based at 3BS Midland, MI I will post the before and after paint&interior weights and CGs in a few days. Flying the airplane after the paint and interior were added makes a noticable difference with the CG moving aft. A couple of minor avionics and interior issues remain and then the traveling will begin! While this is a totally different airplane than the RV4 we built it is a ball to fly and as others have noted should be a very practical cross country machine. Dick Sipp ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:04 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS From: "johngoodman" > Best approach, L/D max, and the stalling aoa are a function of the airfoil, if you drop the flaps you change the airfoil shape. Even the Vane based Rite-Angle AOA systems have flap position inputs. > > I have thee different AOA systems in my RV-4 from two different manufacturers, there is a significant difference in how well they work. > > Rob Hickman > N402RH RV-10 Rob, You are correct but flaps do more that change the shape of the wing. They change the angle of incidence. The part of the wing out at the ailerons is actually moved to a lower angle of attack due to that change. That's why the tail (behind the flaps) will stall first with washout. The wing is still flying and the ailerons are too. I think the key here is Absolute AoA versus Geometric AoA. If systems are making corrections to AoA, then they must be using some kind of a Geometric AoA. A stall vane that measures nothing but the Absolute AoA will indicate the exact same angle at stall for flaps up or flaps down. I am not an expert so I'm sure somebody out there will make a better case. My original bewilderment was about the statement that the AFS system AoA is not fully usable with the flaps in a certain position. John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197236#197236 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:57 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Pictures N110DV From: "Lew Gallagher" Hey Dick, VERY nice! Any thoughts about my earlier comment on clear coating more than one color? To state it again, I understand that the clear is supposed to be applied from 40 min to 2hrs. after the color is applied in order to get a good bond between the color and clear -- otherwise the clear can peel off in a couple of years. I've base/cleared urethane several cars over the years with great results, but never tri color, stripes etc. So I'm wondering if they waited for the color to dry enough to tape, second color and more time/tape, stripes, etc. THEN cleared? Or if they cleared each color as they went? That would be really time consuming and tough to blend the clear without showing the seams. Later, - Lew -------- non-pilot crazy about building NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549 Engine and FF here, now cowl and baffels,waiting on prop. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197237#197237 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:52 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: LSE Tach I just use the LSE only for tach....I skipped hooking the mag in at all. You can hear by ear if it drops a lot of RPM, and you can see it on the multi-bar bar-graphs if the temps start to drop or rise. So there's no real worry to just have one as long as you listen carefully. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Sam Marlow wrote: > > Ok guy's, I'm at the end of my rope here, I need help. I've tried > everything I can find to make my LSE tach work in conjunction with a > Bendix mag. The mag signal to my EIS6000 works just fine, but the > Lightspeed tach just won't work. I know some of you have it working, > how's it done? > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:38 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! From: "Geico266" According to several engine manufacturs if you have standard pistons 8.5:1 you can run 92 MOGAS all day long. I've been burning it for years. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197248#197248 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:17 PM PST US From: Sam Marlow Subject: Re: RV10-List: LSE Tach Yes, but it's giving up a good diagnostic tool, and backup. I sure wish there was a way to have two tach sources. Tim Olson wrote: > > I just use the LSE only for tach....I skipped hooking the mag > in at all. You can hear by ear if it drops a lot of RPM, > and you can see it on the multi-bar bar-graphs if the temps > start to drop or rise. So there's no real worry to just > have one as long as you listen carefully. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Sam Marlow wrote: >> >> Ok guy's, I'm at the end of my rope here, I need help. I've tried >> everything I can find to make my LSE tach work in conjunction with a >> Bendix mag. The mag signal to my EIS6000 works just fine, but the >> Lightspeed tach just won't work. I know some of you have it working, >> how's it done? >> > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:55 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Pictures N110DV From: "greghale" I used House of Colors paint on my RV8. I applied the base coat a few weeks before the graphics artist could get to the plane. It took him 5 months of part time evening painting to get the graphics on the airplane. After he finished, I applied the clear coat. It took 3 days to put the clear coat on the airplane. 1 day to do the fuselage and 1 day to do the wings. One more day was used to paint the small pieces. The norm for putting the clear coat on is usually 24 hours. The graphics artist told me a light scuffing will provide enough grit for the clear coat to attach. After 7 years and 820 hours, the paint is still a 10 with no hint of clear coat lifting. You can see the paint process on my web site. I plan on painting my RV10 with the same process. Greg... -------- Greg Hale rv8/rv10 www.nwacaptain.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197267#197267 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/flight16_107.jpg ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:14 PM PST US From: "Dave Saylor" Subject: RV10-List: LSE Tach Sam, I'm not sure if this is what you're after, but here is a schematic to get two tach signals into a single input so you can do a mag check and see the actual indicated RPM. If you need to convert the LSE signal to something the EIS can handle, I'm sure either vendor can help you out there. Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 831-722-9141 831-750-0284 CL www.AirCraftersLLC.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.