Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:49 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (Rene Felker)
2. 05:54 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (PJ Seipel)
3. 06:59 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (Rick Sked)
4. 07:01 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (Rick Sked)
5. 07:03 AM - Fire rated foam insulation (johngoodman)
6. 07:13 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
7. 07:18 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
8. 07:27 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (Rene Felker)
9. 07:59 AM - Weld-on 10 & crazing (Perry Casson)
10. 09:52 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (Chuck Weyant)
11. 11:48 AM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (Vernon Smith)
12. 12:28 PM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (John Ackerman)
13. 03:21 PM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (pascal)
14. 08:03 PM - Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing (Dave Leikam)
15. 08:41 PM - Re: Aluminum Windshield Fairing (David Maib)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Weld-on 10 & crazing |
Rick BTW
461?
462?
463?
Do not archive
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol? If
there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything
in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.
Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil content.
How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive
when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?
Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing
grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as
the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in the
edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic,
chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral
surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved
by scuffing it for a better bond.
I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply
pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on" joint,
any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a smaller
scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive
has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and rejoined
with the curing of the weld-on.
This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber my
explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made sense
and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but
it sounds good huh?
Prove me wrong... :)
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:16:33 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical
device industry. Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to
alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many
plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which
starts as crazing. It is caused by the material having stress (either
molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a
chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would
normally cause a crack to start.
The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the
crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't show,
you probably won't have to replace the windshield.
Jack Phillips
#40610
Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
is one. There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but
can report on. During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser
extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,
and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't
craze. So maybe that is an option. But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on
the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.
mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything
else. kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for
paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation. Also,
I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.
Tim
Vernon Smith wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during
> install of your window. All clamps were padded with layers of masking
> tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after
> clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The
> thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an
> interesting idea.
>
> I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on)
> and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted
> detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water)
> to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there
> may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the
> internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good
> choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.
>
> As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.
>
> Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:
>
> /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on
> both of our RV-10's.
> Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had
> is that the crazing does
> not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are
> removed. scott at van's/
> //
> //
> /Thanks,/
> //
> /Vern Smith (#324)/
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500
> > From: Tim@MyRV10.com
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
> >
> >
> > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing
> > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some
> > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have
> > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.
> > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to
> > hold position. I had no crazing.
> >
> > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't
> > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps
> > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.
> >
> > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than
> > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to
> > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't
> > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,
> > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person
> > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least
> > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause
> > somehow.
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> >
> >
> >
> > Vernon Smith wrote:
> > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,
> > >
> > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is
> > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below.
So
> > > here are my questions:
> > >
> > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?
> > >
> > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?
> > >
> > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from
> > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it
> > > doesn't keep creeping.
> > >
> > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no
> problems
> > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was
> > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks
> > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only
> rubbing
> > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no
> > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit
> > > sand paper.
> > >
> > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing
> process.
> > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's,
he
> > > has requested pictures.
> > >
> > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,
> > >
> > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)
> > >
> > >
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing |
Not sure exactly what type of "plastic" our windows are made of, but the
list at the link below gives the effects of using various
solvents/substances on acrylic plexiglass and I figure ours is pretty
close. It's a pretty inclusive list, and I used it as a guide for
figuring out what substances to avoid (anything with an "N" in both
columns). Isopropyl alcohol is not so good. Ethyl alcohol is better if
you can find it without any additives.
http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
Rick Sked wrote:
>
> Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol?
If there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything
in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.
Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil
content. How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive
when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?
>
> Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing
grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as
the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in
the edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic,
chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral
surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved
by scuffing it for a better bond.
>
> I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply
pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on"
joint, any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a
smaller scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive
has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and
rejoined with the curing of the weld-on.
>
> This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber
my explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made
sense and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but
it sounds good huh?
>
> Prove me wrong... :)
>
> Rick Sked
> 40185
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:16:33 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical
> device industry. Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to
> alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many
> plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which
> starts as crazing. It is caused by the material having stress (either
> molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a
> chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would
> normally cause a crack to start.
>
> The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the
> crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't show,
> you probably won't have to replace the windshield.
>
> Jack Phillips
> #40610
> Wings
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:29 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
> There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
> is one. There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but
> can report on. During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser
> extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,
> and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't
> craze. So maybe that is an option. But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on
> the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.
>
> mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything
> else. kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for
> paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation. Also,
> I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.
>
> Tim
>
> Vernon Smith wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during
>> install of your window. All clamps were padded with layers of masking
>> tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after
>> clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The
>> thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an
>> interesting idea.
>>
>> I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on)
>> and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted
>> detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water)
>> to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there
>> may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the
>> internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good
>> choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.
>>
>> As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.
>>
>> Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:
>>
>> /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on
>> both of our RV-10's.
>> Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had
>> is that the crazing does
>> not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are
>> removed. scott at van's/
>> //
>> //
>> /Thanks,/
>> //
>> /Vern Smith (#324)/
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500
>> > From: Tim@MyRV10.com
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>> >
>> >
>> > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing
>> > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some
>> > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have
>> > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.
>> > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to
>> > hold position. I had no crazing.
>> >
>> > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't
>> > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps
>> > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.
>> >
>> > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than
>> > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to
>> > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't
>> > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,
>> > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person
>> > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least
>> > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause
>> > somehow.
>> >
>> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Vernon Smith wrote:
>> > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,
>> > >
>> > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is
>> > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below.
>>
> So
>
>> > > here are my questions:
>> > >
>> > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?
>> > >
>> > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?
>> > >
>> > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from
>> > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it
>> > > doesn't keep creeping.
>> > >
>> > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no
>> problems
>> > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was
>> > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks
>> > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only
>> rubbing
>> > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no
>> > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit
>> > > sand paper.
>> > >
>> > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing
>> process.
>> > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's,
>>
> he
>
>> > > has requested pictures.
>> > >
>> > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,
>> > >
>> > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing |
64 then 62 I don't even know what the new AFSC's are do you?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:48:57 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Rick BTW
461?
462?
463?
Do not archive
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol? If
there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything
in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.
Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil content.
How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive
when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?
Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing
grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as
the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in the
edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic,
chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral
surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved
by scuffing it for a better bond.
I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply
pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on" joint,
any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a smaller
scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive
has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and rejoined
with the curing of the weld-on.
This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber my
explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made sense
and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but
it sounds good huh?
Prove me wrong... :)
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:16:33 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical
device industry. Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to
alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many
plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which
starts as crazing. It is caused by the material having stress (either
molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a
chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would
normally cause a crack to start.
The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the
crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't show,
you probably won't have to replace the windshield.
Jack Phillips
#40610
Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
is one. There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but
can report on. During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser
extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,
and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't
craze. So maybe that is an option. But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on
the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.
mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything
else. kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for
paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation. Also,
I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.
Tim
Vernon Smith wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during
> install of your window. All clamps were padded with layers of masking
> tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after
> clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The
> thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an
> interesting idea.
>
> I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on)
> and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted
> detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water)
> to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there
> may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the
> internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good
> choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.
>
> As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.
>
> Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:
>
> /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on
> both of our RV-10's.
> Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had
> is that the crazing does
> not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are
> removed. scott at van's/
> //
> //
> /Thanks,/
> //
> /Vern Smith (#324)/
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500
> > From: Tim@MyRV10.com
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
> >
> >
> > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing
> > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some
> > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have
> > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.
> > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to
> > hold position. I had no crazing.
> >
> > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't
> > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps
> > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.
> >
> > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than
> > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to
> > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't
> > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,
> > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person
> > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least
> > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause
> > somehow.
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> >
> >
> >
> > Vernon Smith wrote:
> > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,
> > >
> > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is
> > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below.
So
> > > here are my questions:
> > >
> > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?
> > >
> > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?
> > >
> > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from
> > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it
> > > doesn't keep creeping.
> > >
> > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no
> problems
> > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was
> > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks
> > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only
> rubbing
> > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no
> > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit
> > > sand paper.
> > >
> > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing
> process.
> > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's,
he
> > > has requested pictures.
> > >
> > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,
> > >
> > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)
> > >
> > >
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing |
Any thoughts on using Dawn dishwashing detergent to clean prior to glueing?
Rick Sked
40185 moving to the airport this weekend!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "PJ Seipel" <seipel@seznam.cz>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:54:27 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Not sure exactly what type of "plastic" our windows are made of, but the
list at the link below gives the effects of using various
solvents/substances on acrylic plexiglass and I figure ours is pretty
close. It's a pretty inclusive list, and I used it as a guide for
figuring out what substances to avoid (anything with an "N" in both
columns). Isopropyl alcohol is not so good. Ethyl alcohol is better if
you can find it without any additives.
http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
Rick Sked wrote:
>
> Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol?
If there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything
in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.
Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil
content. How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive
when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?
>
> Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing
grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as
the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in
the edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic,
chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral
surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved
by scuffing it for a better bond.
>
> I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply
pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on"
joint, any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a
smaller scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive
has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and
rejoined with the curing of the weld-on.
>
> This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber
my explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made
sense and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but
it sounds good huh?
>
> Prove me wrong... :)
>
> Rick Sked
> 40185
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:16:33 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical
> device industry. Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to
> alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many
> plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which
> starts as crazing. It is caused by the material having stress (either
> molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a
> chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would
> normally cause a crack to start.
>
> The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the
> crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't show,
> you probably won't have to replace the windshield.
>
> Jack Phillips
> #40610
> Wings
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:29 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
> There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
> is one. There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but
> can report on. During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser
> extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,
> and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't
> craze. So maybe that is an option. But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on
> the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.
>
> mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything
> else. kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for
> paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation. Also,
> I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.
>
> Tim
>
> Vernon Smith wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during
>> install of your window. All clamps were padded with layers of masking
>> tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after
>> clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The
>> thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an
>> interesting idea.
>>
>> I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on)
>> and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted
>> detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water)
>> to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there
>> may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the
>> internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good
>> choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.
>>
>> As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.
>>
>> Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:
>>
>> /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on
>> both of our RV-10's.
>> Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had
>> is that the crazing does
>> not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are
>> removed. scott at van's/
>> //
>> //
>> /Thanks,/
>> //
>> /Vern Smith (#324)/
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500
>> > From: Tim@MyRV10.com
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>> >
>> >
>> > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing
>> > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some
>> > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have
>> > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.
>> > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to
>> > hold position. I had no crazing.
>> >
>> > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't
>> > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps
>> > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.
>> >
>> > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than
>> > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to
>> > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't
>> > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,
>> > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person
>> > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least
>> > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause
>> > somehow.
>> >
>> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Vernon Smith wrote:
>> > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,
>> > >
>> > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is
>> > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below.
>>
> So
>
>> > > here are my questions:
>> > >
>> > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?
>> > >
>> > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?
>> > >
>> > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from
>> > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it
>> > > doesn't keep creeping.
>> > >
>> > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no
>> problems
>> > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was
>> > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks
>> > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only
>> rubbing
>> > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no
>> > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit
>> > > sand paper.
>> > >
>> > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing
>> process.
>> > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's,
>>
> he
>
>> > > has requested pictures.
>> > >
>> > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,
>> > >
>> > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fire rated foam insulation |
I came across a fire rated expanding foam insulation that sounds like it might
work for those who wish they had insulated their floors. It's called Abesco FP200
and it sounds like it would work. The biggest gripe from folks who have used
it is that it doesn't expand as much as they expect - a good thing for us.
Here is a spec sheet:
http://images.cableorganizer.com/abesco-FP200/Abesco%20FP200%20FR%20Expanding%20Foam%20(DS6).pdf
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3948#203948
Message 6
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| Subject: | Weld-on 10 & crazing |
42
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
64 then 62 I don't even know what the new AFSC's are do you?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:48:57 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Rick BTW
461?
462?
463?
Do not archive
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol? If
there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything
in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.
Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil content.
How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive
when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?
Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing
grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as
the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in the
edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic,
chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral
surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved
by scuffing it for a better bond.
I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply
pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on" joint,
any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a smaller
scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive
has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and rejoined
with the curing of the weld-on.
This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber my
explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made sense
and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but
it sounds good huh?
Prove me wrong... :)
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:16:33 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical
device industry. Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to
alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many
plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which
starts as crazing. It is caused by the material having stress (either
molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a
chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would
normally cause a crack to start.
The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the
crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't show,
you probably won't have to replace the windshield.
Jack Phillips
#40610
Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
is one. There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but
can report on. During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser
extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,
and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't
craze. So maybe that is an option. But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on
the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.
mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything
else. kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for
paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation. Also,
I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.
Tim
Vernon Smith wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during
> install of your window. All clamps were padded with layers of masking
> tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after
> clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The
> thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an
> interesting idea.
>
> I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on)
> and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted
> detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water)
> to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there
> may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the
> internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good
> choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.
>
> As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.
>
> Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:
>
> /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on
> both of our RV-10's.
> Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had
> is that the crazing does
> not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are
> removed. scott at van's/
> //
> //
> /Thanks,/
> //
> /Vern Smith (#324)/
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500
> > From: Tim@MyRV10.com
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
> >
> >
> > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing
> > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some
> > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have
> > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.
> > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to
> > hold position. I had no crazing.
> >
> > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't
> > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps
> > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.
> >
> > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than
> > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to
> > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't
> > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,
> > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person
> > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least
> > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause
> > somehow.
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> >
> >
> >
> > Vernon Smith wrote:
> > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,
> > >
> > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is
> > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below.
So
> > > here are my questions:
> > >
> > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?
> > >
> > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?
> > >
> > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from
> > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it
> > > doesn't keep creeping.
> > >
> > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no
> problems
> > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was
> > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks
> > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only
> rubbing
> > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no
> > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit
> > > sand paper.
> > >
> > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing
> process.
> > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's,
he
> > > has requested pictures.
> > >
> > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,
> > >
> > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)
> > >
> > >
Message 7
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| Subject: | Weld-on 10 & crazing |
http://www.lpaero.com/documentation.html
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Any thoughts on using Dawn dishwashing detergent to clean prior to glueing?
Rick Sked
40185 moving to the airport this weekend!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "PJ Seipel" <seipel@seznam.cz>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:54:27 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Not sure exactly what type of "plastic" our windows are made of, but the
list at the link below gives the effects of using various
solvents/substances on acrylic plexiglass and I figure ours is pretty
close. It's a pretty inclusive list, and I used it as a guide for
figuring out what substances to avoid (anything with an "N" in both
columns). Isopropyl alcohol is not so good. Ethyl alcohol is better if
you can find it without any additives.
http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
Rick Sked wrote:
>
> Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol?
If there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything
in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.
Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil
content. How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive
when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?
>
> Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing
grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as
the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in
the edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic,
chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral
surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved
by scuffing it for a better bond.
>
> I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply
pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on"
joint, any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a
smaller scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive
has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and
rejoined with the curing of the weld-on.
>
> This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber
my explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made
sense and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but
it sounds good huh?
>
> Prove me wrong... :)
>
> Rick Sked
> 40185
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:16:33 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical
> device industry. Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to
> alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many
> plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which
> starts as crazing. It is caused by the material having stress (either
> molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a
> chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would
> normally cause a crack to start.
>
> The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the
> crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't show,
> you probably won't have to replace the windshield.
>
> Jack Phillips
> #40610
> Wings
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:29 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
> There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
> is one. There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but
> can report on. During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser
> extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,
> and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't
> craze. So maybe that is an option. But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on
> the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.
>
> mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything
> else. kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for
> paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation. Also,
> I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.
>
> Tim
>
> Vernon Smith wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during
>> install of your window. All clamps were padded with layers of masking
>> tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after
>> clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The
>> thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an
>> interesting idea.
>>
>> I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on)
>> and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted
>> detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water)
>> to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there
>> may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the
>> internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good
>> choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.
>>
>> As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.
>>
>> Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:
>>
>> /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on
>> both of our RV-10's.
>> Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had
>> is that the crazing does
>> not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are
>> removed. scott at van's/
>> //
>> //
>> /Thanks,/
>> //
>> /Vern Smith (#324)/
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500
>> > From: Tim@MyRV10.com
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>> >
>> >
>> > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing
>> > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some
>> > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have
>> > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.
>> > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to
>> > hold position. I had no crazing.
>> >
>> > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't
>> > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps
>> > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.
>> >
>> > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than
>> > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to
>> > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't
>> > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,
>> > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person
>> > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least
>> > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause
>> > somehow.
>> >
>> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Vernon Smith wrote:
>> > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,
>> > >
>> > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is
>> > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below.
>>
> So
>
>> > > here are my questions:
>> > >
>> > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?
>> > >
>> > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?
>> > >
>> > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from
>> > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it
>> > > doesn't keep creeping.
>> > >
>> > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no
>> problems
>> > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was
>> > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks
>> > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only
>> rubbing
>> > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no
>> > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit
>> > > sand paper.
>> > >
>> > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing
>> process.
>> > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's,
>>
> he
>
>> > > has requested pictures.
>> > >
>> > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,
>> > >
>> > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Weld-on 10 & crazing |
64 scary...
I don't know the new ones.....I was a 316, little missiles and then went to BIG
missiles.....but our age shows by the AFSC's we remember.....
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
64 then 62 I don't even know what the new AFSC's are do you?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:48:57 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Rick BTW
461?
462?
463?
Do not archive
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol? If
there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything
in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.
Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil content.
How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive
when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?
Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing
grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as
the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in the
edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic,
chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral
surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved
by scuffing it for a better bond.
I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply
pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on" joint,
any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a smaller
scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive
has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and rejoined
with the curing of the weld-on.
This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber my
explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made sense
and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but
it sounds good huh?
Prove me wrong... :)
Rick Sked
40185
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:16:33 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical
device industry. Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to
alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many
plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which
starts as crazing. It is caused by the material having stress (either
molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a
chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would
normally cause a crack to start.
The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the
crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't show,
you probably won't have to replace the windshield.
Jack Phillips
#40610
Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
is one. There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but
can report on. During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser
extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,
and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't
craze. So maybe that is an option. But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on
the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.
mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything
else. kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for
paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation. Also,
I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.
Tim
Vernon Smith wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during
> install of your window. All clamps were padded with layers of masking
> tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after
> clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The
> thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an
> interesting idea.
>
> I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on)
> and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted
> detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water)
> to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there
> may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the
> internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good
> choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.
>
> As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.
>
> Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:
>
> /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on
> both of our RV-10's.
> Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had
> is that the crazing does
> not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are
> removed. scott at van's/
> //
> //
> /Thanks,/
> //
> /Vern Smith (#324)/
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500
> > From: Tim@MyRV10.com
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
> >
> >
> > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing
> > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some
> > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have
> > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.
> > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to
> > hold position. I had no crazing.
> >
> > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't
> > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps
> > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.
> >
> > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than
> > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to
> > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't
> > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,
> > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person
> > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least
> > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause
> > somehow.
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> >
> >
> >
> > Vernon Smith wrote:
> > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,
> > >
> > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is
> > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below.
So
> > > here are my questions:
> > >
> > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?
> > >
> > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?
> > >
> > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from
> > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it
> > > doesn't keep creeping.
> > >
> > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no
> problems
> > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was
> > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks
> > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only
> rubbing
> > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no
> > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit
> > > sand paper.
> > >
> > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing
> process.
> > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's,
he
> > > has requested pictures.
> > >
> > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,
> > >
> > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)
> > >
> > >
Message 9
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| Subject: | Weld-on 10 & crazing |
Vern,
I had the same problem when I installed my windshield. Decided it was going
to be far easier to replace the windshield right away and risk having
problems after fairing and paint and glad I did. When I started knocking
the bad windshield out it cracked quite readily from those crazed areas.
Based on talks with a buddy of mine who's blown several of bubble canopies
we suspect the "problem" windshields are being blown at a slightly lower
temperature or are being allowed to cool faster after blowing.
Perry Casson
C-FMHP
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing |
I've used rubbing alcohol on an RV9A (three years old) and my almost
finished RV10. Haven't had a problem yet.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Vernon Smith
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
I knew acetone was out and now nix the rubbing alcohol. Though rubbing
alcohol was OK because it is recommended by Lancair. But they don't use
Weld-On.
At least 4 out of the 5 windows turned out. Oh well it's only time and
money.
Rene, Tim, Dave and Michael thanks for the feedback.
Vern
do not archive
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:29:06 -0500
> From: Tim@MyRV10.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
> There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
> is one.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Weld-on 10 & crazing |
I did get an answer from the tech group at IPS the makers of Weld-On10 abou
t possible repairs. They don't recommend using Weld-On 3 ( a capillary acti
on cement) for surface cracks/crazing as it can make the cracks worse. Only
other idea they had was try removing the cracks mechanically with somethin
g like Micro-Mesh or leave them alone.
So there you have the options:
1. Leave them alone
2. Try buffing them out
3. Replace the window
Again I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts and encouragement.
vern
> Date: Fri=2C 12 Sep 2008 08:57:15 -0600> From: pcasson@sasktel.net> Subje
ct: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing> To: rv10-list@matronics.com> > --> RV1
0-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>> > Vern=2C > >
I had the same problem when I installed my windshield. Decided it was goin
g> to be far easier to replace the windshield right away and risk having> p
roblems after fairing and paint and glad I did. When I started knocking> th
e bad windshield out it cracked quite readily from those crazed areas.> Bas
ed on talks with a buddy of mine who's blown several of bubble canopies> we
suspect the "problem" windshields are being blown at a slightly lower> tem
perature or are being allowed to cool faster after blowing.> > Perry Casson
> C-FMHP >
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing |
I'd be exceptionally cautious about using this site as a guide for
what to put on my windshield:
> http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html
For example, they rate ammonium hydroxide as "excellent".
John
>
>
> Not sure exactly what type of "plastic" our windows are made of, but
> the list at the link below gives the effects of using various
> solvents/substances on acrylic plexiglass and I figure ours is
> pretty close. It's a pretty inclusive list, and I used it as a
> guide for figuring out what substances to avoid (anything with an
> "N" in both columns). Isopropyl alcohol is not so good. Ethyl
> alcohol is better if you can find it without any additives.
> http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing |
Sorry to hear of your crazing Vern.
I appreciate this thread and the responses on what to do and not do to
install the windows without crazing or other issues it will serve me
well when I go to do them myself.
Thanks all for the insight!
Pascal
From: Vernon Smith
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 11:47 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
I did get an answer from the tech group at IPS the makers of Weld-On10
about possible repairs. They don't recommend using Weld-On 3 ( a
capillary action cement) for surface cracks/crazing as it can make the
cracks worse. Only other idea they had was try removing the cracks
mechanically with something like Micro-Mesh or leave them alone.
So there you have the options:
1. Leave them alone
2. Try buffing them out
3. Replace the window
Again I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts and
encouragement.
vern
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:57:15 -0600
> From: pcasson@sasktel.net
> Subject: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Vern,
>
> I had the same problem when I installed my windshield. Decided it was
going
> to be far easier to replace the windshield right away and risk having
> problems after fairing and paint and glad I did. When I started
knocking
> the bad windshield out it cracked quite readily from those crazed
areas.
> Based on talks with a buddy of mine who's blown several of bubble
canopies
> we suspect the "problem" windshields are being blown at a slightly
lower
> temperature or are being allowed to cool faster after blowing.
>
> Perry Casson
> C-FMHP
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing |
Sounds like good info Mike, thanks for posting.
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> http://www.lpaero.com/documentation.html
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:00 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> Any thoughts on using Dawn dishwashing detergent to clean prior to
> glueing?
>
> Rick Sked
> 40185 moving to the airport this weekend!!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "PJ Seipel" <seipel@seznam.cz>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:54:27 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>
>
> Not sure exactly what type of "plastic" our windows are made of, but the
> list at the link below gives the effects of using various
> solvents/substances on acrylic plexiglass and I figure ours is pretty
> close. It's a pretty inclusive list, and I used it as a guide for
> figuring out what substances to avoid (anything with an "N" in both
> columns). Isopropyl alcohol is not so good. Ethyl alcohol is better if
> you can find it without any additives.
>
> http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html
>
> PJ Seipel
> RV-10 #40032
>
> Rick Sked wrote:
>>
>> Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing
>> alcohol? If there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least
>> etching, least anything in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic
>> products it's Isopropol alcohol. Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based
>> solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil content. How could kerosene be
>> used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive when it leaves an obvious
>> oil film/residue behind?
>>
>> Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of
>> polishing grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as
>> optically clear as the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave
>> microscopic lines in the edge of the material and your using an expansive
>> (and under pressure), thermic, chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an
>> entry point to work on the lateral surface where the surface tension of
>> the area has already been weakened/relieved by scuffing it for a better
>> bond.
>>
>> I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum,
>> apply pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the
>> "weld-on" joint, any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress
>> riser but on a smaller scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing
>> stops, becasue the adhesive has entered the void and has cured. The
>> microcracks have been formed and rejoined with the curing of the weld-on.
>>
>> This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but
>> rememeber my explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and
>> geometry, that made sense and hated anything else that wasn't represented
>> by material evidence...but it sounds good huh?
>>
>> Prove me wrong... :)
>>
>> Rick Sked
>> 40185
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:16:33 PM (GMT-0800)
>> America/Los_Angeles
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>>
>>
>> I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical
>> device industry. Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to
>> alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many
>> plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which
>> starts as crazing. It is caused by the material having stress (either
>> molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a
>> chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would
>> normally cause a crack to start.
>>
>> The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the
>> crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't
>> show,
>> you probably won't have to replace the windshield.
>>
>> Jack Phillips
>> #40610
>> Wings
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:29 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>>
>>
>> Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!
>> There aren't that many things you can clean it with. Kerosene
>> is one. There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but
>> can report on. During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser
>> extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,
>> and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't
>> craze. So maybe that is an option. But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on
>> the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.
>>
>> mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything
>> else. kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for
>> paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation. Also,
>> I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Vernon Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tim,
>>>
>>> I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during
>>> install of your window. All clamps were padded with layers of masking
>>> tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after
>>> clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The
>>> thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an
>>> interesting idea.
>>>
>>> I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on)
>>> and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted
>>> detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water)
>>> to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there
>>> may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the
>>> internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good
>>> choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.
>>>
>>> As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I
>>> learn.
>>>
>>> Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:
>>>
>>> /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on
>>> both of our RV-10's.
>>> Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had
>>> is that the crazing does
>>> not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are
>>> removed. scott at van's/
>>> //
>>> //
>>> /Thanks,/
>>> //
>>> /Vern Smith (#324)/
>>>
>>>
>>> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500
>>> > From: Tim@MyRV10.com
>>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Weld-on 10 & crazing
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing
>>> > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some
>>> > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have
>>> > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.
>>> > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to
>>> > hold position. I had no crazing.
>>> >
>>> > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't
>>> > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps
>>> > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.
>>> >
>>> > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than
>>> > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to
>>> > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't
>>> > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,
>>> > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person
>>> > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least
>>> > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause
>>> > somehow.
>>> >
>>> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Vernon Smith wrote:
>>> > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,
>>> > >
>>> > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there
>>> is
>>> > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below.
>>>
>> So
>>
>>> > > here are my questions:
>>> > >
>>> > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?
>>> > >
>>> > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?
>>> > >
>>> > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it
>>> from
>>> > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as
>>> it
>>> > > doesn't keep creeping.
>>> > >
>>> > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no
>>> problems
>>> > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield
>>> was
>>> > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam
>>> blocks
>>> > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only
>>> rubbing
>>> > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with
>>> no
>>> > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240
>>> grit
>>> > > sand paper.
>>> > >
>>> > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing
>>> process.
>>> > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's,
>>>
>> he
>>
>>> > > has requested pictures.
>>> > >
>>> > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,
>>> > >
>>> > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Windshield Fairing |
I would like to talk to Dick. I was at his home/hangar for a
Minnesota Wing meeting last winter when the FADEC guy was the
speaker. I did not get a chance to look at Dick's airplane.
BTW, thanks for the fuel labels. Your check is enroute.
Regards,
David Maib
40559
On Sep 10, 2008, at 6:57 AM, gary wrote:
Dick Nordquist from the Lino Air park made metal fairings for
everything on
his 6. He can tell you the good and the bad. Let me know if you want
contact info.
Gary Specketer
40274
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dmaib@mac.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Aluminum Windshield Fairing
Has anyone tried fabricating an aluminum windshield front fairing
instead of
the fiberglass? I seem to remember seeing one, but cannot find
anything in
the archives. I have access to some pretty sophisticated metal forming
equipment, so the thought crossed my mind..............
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3503#203503
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