Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:10 AM - Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle)
1. 08:03 AM - Re: Delamination (John Gonzalez)
2. 08:11 AM - Re: Delamination (AirMike)
3. 08:47 AM - Mounting GRT Magnetometer - aluminum rivets (MauleDriver)
4. 09:04 AM - Re: Mounting GRT Magnetometer - aluminum rivets (Lew Gallagher)
5. 09:11 AM - Re: Mounting GRT Magnetometer - aluminum rivets (MauleDriver)
6. 12:23 PM - Re: Delamination (n801bh@netzero.com)
7. 12:46 PM - Re: Delamination (John Cox)
8. 01:55 PM - Re: Delamination (Les Kearney)
9. 03:24 PM - Re: Delamination (dogsbark@comcast.net)
10. 04:14 PM - Re: Delamination (John Cox)
11. 11:24 PM - Re: Delamination (John Cox)
Message 0
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| Subject: | Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
Its November 30th and that means three things:..
1) Today I am now officially 45 years old...
2) It marks that last "official" day of this year's List Fund Raiser!
3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year!
If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising, no-spam, and
no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a Contribution today to support
their continued operation and upkeep. Your $20 or $30 goes a long way
to keep the List bills paid.
I will be posting the List of Contributors next week so make sure your name is
on it!
Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year! It is greatly
appreciated.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List and Forum Administrator
Message 1
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Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became delamina
ted. I would disagree=2C these areas in the pictures look as though they wh
ere never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not pull the honeycomb
down onto the outside skin. This is a quality control issue and IMOO should
have never been received by Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on
to you from Vans.Thanks for the pictures=2C it will give others what to loo
k for before starting in on a fiberglass part.JOhn GonzalezDate: Sat=2C 29
Nov 2008 05:08:57 +0000From: dogsbark@comcast.netTo: rv10-list@matronics.co
mSubject: RV10-List: Delamination
Okay composite experts....I need your help=2C please.
I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work. Much
to my disappointment=2C I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots on th
e upper cowl if I leaned on them. A total of four handsized areas are dela
minating. There are other small areas as well. There is no deformation ins
ide or out=2C but a clear void is there. The honeycomb is not visible in t
hese areas when looking from the outside. Also=2C there is a small dab of
filler on one of the voids that was there when I received the cowl.
Pictures are at: http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_en
try&log_id=32934 If you double click the photos=2C you can get a closer
look at the detail.
I have zero experience with composites. Is there a solution to this that's
feasible? Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around to fill th
em? Or=2C do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate and then b
uild them back up? How much of a structural issue could this be?
Of course I don't want to start over. Anything reasonable is worth trying.
Thanks for any help or recommendations.
Sean Blair
#40225
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Delamination |
I would request a replacement from Vans. They are usually quite good about things
like this, and even if you get it "fixed" it may delaminate further in the
near future necessitating a replacement. This could be quite costly and now you
have a template. What is your build number so that those in the same group can
check theirs??
--------
OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09
Q/B Kit - wiring and FWF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217045#217045
Message 3
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| Subject: | Mounting GRT Magnetometer - aluminum rivets |
I'm mounting my 2 GRT Magnetometers on a shelf behind the battery
compartment. I'd like to use a few pull rivets on the shelf.
Should I avoid use of LP4-3 or similar rivets due to the ferrous
shank? These are aluminum rivets but they do have a small steel shank.
Are there any all aluminum or perhaps aluminum/stainless pull rivets?
Thoughts?
My fall back is brass or stainless screws.
Thanks
Bill Watson
*/*/"Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com>/*/*
* * /*Mounting GRT AHRS & Magnetometer
<http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=36094201?KEYS=magnetometer_&_ferrous?LISTNAME=RV10?HITNUMBER=3?SERIAL=08314230308?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>*/
*Date: * */Oct 09, 2008/*
*I can't say how well it works but I'll show pictures. I fabricated
a lightweight shelf using .040" aluminum to attach to the bulkhead
behind the baggage wall. I attached it with aluminum pull rivets and
used nylon lock nuts and bolts. The only concern I have is the
weight on the bulkhead and possible vibration while in flight. The
magnetometer and shelf together are very light so it shouldn't be an
issue. I suppose I could fabricate a bracket to support the bulkhead
to the skin above but I haven't done that and I don't really think
it's going to be necessary. The seat belt cables are not ferrous
metal. They don't attract a magnet so they shouldn't influence the
magnetometer at all. Here's a thread on AFS's forum with some more
information including a shot of Rob's dual install which he says has
worked w/o incident.*
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Mounting GRT Magnetometer - aluminum rivets |
Hey Bill,
We ran short on countersunk pop rivets for the floor and just went to a local fastener
shop to get some more. We got some with steel shank and some with aluminum
shank. I'm sure you can find them easily -- if not, we didn't use many
of the aluminum shank and I can send you some if you like.
Later, - Lew
--------
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Prop is on, cowl almost finished, paint prep!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217054#217054
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Mounting GRT Magnetometer - aluminum rivets |
OK, I'm going to answer my own question... it just dawned on me that the
screws and metal hardware in the 9 pin plug used on the Magnetometer are
ferrous. I don't think that the steel component of pull rivets is
greater than one of the screws. So, I'm just going to go ahead and
mount the darn thing.
Sometimes getting the question on the list is just what I need to find
an answer.
Bill
MauleDriver wrote:
> I'm mounting my 2 GRT Magnetometers on a shelf behind the battery
> compartment. I'd like to use a few pull rivets on the shelf.
>
> Should I avoid use of LP4-3 or similar rivets due to the ferrous
> shank? These are aluminum rivets but they do have a small steel
> shank. Are there any all aluminum or perhaps aluminum/stainless pull
> rivets? Thoughts?
>
> My fall back is brass or stainless screws.
>
> Thanks
> Bill Watson
>
> */*/"Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com>/*/*
> * *
> /*Mounting GRT AHRS & Magnetometer
> <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=36094201?KEYS=magnetometer_&_ferrous?LISTNAME=RV10?HITNUMBER=3?SERIAL=08314230308?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>*/
>
>
> *Date: * */Oct 09, 2008/*
>
> *I can't say how well it works but I'll show pictures. I
> fabricated a lightweight shelf using .040" aluminum to attach to
> the bulkhead behind the baggage wall. I attached it with aluminum
> pull rivets and used nylon lock nuts and bolts. The only concern I
> have is the weight on the bulkhead and possible vibration while in
> flight. The magnetometer and shelf together are very light so it
> shouldn't be an issue. I suppose I could fabricate a bracket to
> support the bulkhead to the skin above but I haven't done that and
> I don't really think it's going to be necessary. The seat belt
> cables are not ferrous metal. They don't attract a magnet so they
> shouldn't influence the magnetometer at all. Here's a thread on
> AFS's forum with some more information including a shot of Rob's
> dual install which he says has worked w/o incident.*
>
> *
>
> *
Message 6
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I agree with John on this completly. Vans should have examined this as t
hey received it from their vendor and for sure not shipped it to the end
user. From the pics it looks like Sean has spent alot of time fitting t
he whole assembly nicely. Even if Vans does replace it Sean has hours an
d hours of rework time. Not what a homebuilder looks forward to..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became delam
inated. I would disagree, these areas in the pictures look as though the
y where never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not pull the hon
eycomb down onto the outside skin.
This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received
by Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.
Thanks for the pictures, it will give others what to look for before sta
rting in on a fiberglass part.
JOhn Gonzalez
From: dogsbark@comcast.net
Subject: RV10-List: Delamination
Okay composite experts....I need your help, please.
I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work. M
uch to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots o
n the upper cowl if I leaned on them. A total of four handsized areas a
re delaminating. There are other small areas as well. There is no defor
mation inside or out, but a clear void is there. The honeycomb is not v
isible in these areas when looking from the outside. Also, there is a s
mall dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I received th
e cowl.
Pictures are at: http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log
_entry&log_id=32934 If you double click the photos, you can get a cl
oser look at the detail.
I have zero experience with composites. Is there a solution to this tha
t's feasible? Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around to f
ill them? Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate and
then build them back up? How much of a structural issue could this be?
Of course I don't want to start over. Anything reasonable is worth tryi
ng.
Thanks for any help or recommendations.
Sean Blair
#40225
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
____________________________________________________________
Find success and happiness with drug and alcohol rehabilitation. Click n
ow.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/PnY6rx9UcCSQbBh8LF8g6eK1Y
9MXaWGldGISjtd4vgfAySAUIyBUA/
Message 7
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Visual inspection of all VAN parts is SOP along with inventory of
received goods. Tap Testing of composite parts is a wise idea. If you
need directions, on how to Tap Test, write me and I will forward the
process. The old Blue/Green composite material is far different from
the newer pink panther version two . All builders should look at their
First Generation Blue/Green components to make sure they do not have
production DELAM. The Second Generation Pink production parts seem to
have a slight improved product, mold and final finish.
I can feel Sean's pain. Thank goodness it was not found after the final
topcoat was applied.
John C
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
I agree with John on this completly. Vans should have examined this as
they received it from their vendor and for sure not shipped it to the
end user. From the pics it looks like Sean has spent alot of time
fitting the whole assembly nicely. Even if Vans does replace it Sean has
hours and hours of rework time. Not what a homebuilder looks forward
to..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became
delaminated. I would disagree, these areas in the pictures look as
though they where never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not
pull the honeycomb down onto the outside skin.
This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received
by Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.
Thanks for the pictures, it will give others what to look for before
starting in on a fiberglass part.
JOhn Gonzalez
________________________________
From: dogsbark@comcast.net
Subject: RV10-List: Delamination
Okay composite experts....I need your help, please.
I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.
Much to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots
on the upper cowl if I leaned on them. A total of four handsized areas
are delaminating. There are other small areas as well. There is no
deformation inside or out, but a clear void is there. The honeycomb is
not visible in these areas when looking from the outside. Also, there
is a small dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I
received the cowl.
Pictures are at:
http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=329
34
If you double click the photos, you can get a closer look at the detail.
I have zero experience with composites. Is there a solution to this
that's feasible? Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around
to fill them? Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate
and then build them back up? How much of a structural issue could this
be?
Of course I don't want to start over. Anything reasonable is worth
trying.
Thanks for any help or recommendations.
Sean Blair
#40225
Message 8
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Hi John
Would you post the "tap test" instructions? It would be a good thing to have
in the archive.
Cheers
Les
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: November-30-08 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
Visual inspection of all VAN parts is SOP along with inventory of received
goods. Tap Testing of composite parts is a wise idea. If you need
directions, on how to Tap Test, write me and I will forward the process.
The old Blue/Green composite material is far different from the newer pink
panther version two . All builders should look at their First Generation
Blue/Green components to make sure they do not have production DELAM. The
Second Generation Pink production parts seem to have a slight improved
product, mold and final finish.
I can feel Sean's pain. Thank goodness it was not found after the final
topcoat was applied.
John C
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
I agree with John on this completly. Vans should have examined this as they
received it from their vendor and for sure not shipped it to the end user.
>From the pics it looks like Sean has spent alot of time fitting the whole
assembly nicely. Even if Vans does replace it Sean has hours and hours of
rework time. Not what a homebuilder looks forward to..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became
delaminated. I would disagree, these areas in the pictures look as though
they where never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not pull the
honeycomb down onto the outside skin.
This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received by
Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.
Thanks for the pictures, it will give others what to look for before
starting in on a fiberglass part.
JOhn Gonzalez
_____
From: dogsbark@comcast.net
Subject: RV10-List: Delamination
Okay composite experts....I need your help, please.
I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work. Much
to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots on the
upper cowl if I leaned on them. A total of four handsized areas are
delaminating. There are other small areas as well. There is no deformation
inside or out, but a clear void is there. The honeycomb is not visible in
these areas when looking from the outside. Also, there is a small dab of
filler on one of the voids that was there when I received the cowl.
Pictures are at: http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry
<http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=32934>
&log_id=32934 If you double click the photos, you can get a closer look at
the detail.
I have zero experience with composites. Is there a solution to this that's
feasible? Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around to fill
them? Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate and then
build them back up? How much of a structural issue could this be?
Of course I don't want to start over. Anything reasonable is worth trying.
Thanks for any help or recommendations.
Sean Blair
#40225
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Delamination |
Hey everyone,
Thanks so much for the assistance both on the phone and through the list.
=C2- Your efforts are appreciated.
I will lean toward a replacement cowl.=C2- For now, I think just the top.
...but I wonder if there may be thickness differences or any other tolleren
ce issues mating the green and the pink=C2-halves together.=C2- Did Van
's change vendors altogether?=C2- M&W does the green one I have.
I agree with John Gonzalez's=C2-thought of the problem occurring during p
roduction.=C2- It seems not enough vacuum was present to make all areas e
stablish proper contact and remove all voids.=C2- There is no deformation
though.=C2- Only the exterior displays this degree of seperation.=C2-
It's still puzzling to me that there is a nickel size area of filler direct
ly above one of the largest voids.=C2-
My build number is 40225.=C2- I purchased the entire airframe, with finis
h kit, within a year of my start date of May 2004.=C2-=C2-John Cox's ad
vise of visual inspection of all parts being SOP prior to construction is a
good idea.=C2- I've been fairly good about this....I guess not this time
.
Well....I'll move on from here. Does anyone know where I can get pink micro
baloons in case the second one doesn't turn out as well?=C2- ;-)
Thanks again everyone!
Sean Blair
#40225
Colorado Springs...snowing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney@shaw.ca>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:54:21 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
Hi John
Would you post the =9Ctap test=9D instructions? It would be a g
ood thing to have in the archive.
Cheers
Les
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: November-30-08 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
Visual inspection of all VAN parts is SOP along with inventory of received
goods.=C2- Tap Testing of composite parts is a wise idea.=C2- If you ne
ed directions, on how to Tap Test, write me and I will forward the process.
=C2- The old Blue/Green composite material is far different from the newe
r pink panther version two .=C2- All builders should look at their First
Generation Blue/Green components to make sure they do not have production D
ELAM.=C2- The Second Generation Pink production parts seem to have a slig
ht improved product, mold and final finish.
I can feel Sean's pain.=C2- Thank goodness it was not found after the fin
al topcoat was applied.
John C
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
I agree with John on this completly. Vans should have examined this as they
received it from their vendor and for sure not shipped it to the end user.
From the pics it looks like Sean has spent alot of time fitting the whole
assembly nicely. Even if Vans does replace it Sean has hours and hours of r
ework time. Not what a homebuilder looks forward to..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became delamina
ted. I would disagree, these areas in the pictures look as though they wher
e never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not pull the honeycomb do
wn onto the outside skin.=C2-
This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received by
Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.
Thanks for the pictures, it will give others what to look for before starti
ng in on a fiberglass part.
JOhn Gonzalez
From: dogsbark@comcast.net
Subject: RV10-List: Delamination
Okay composite experts....I need your help, please.
=C2-
I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.=C2-
Much to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots=C2
-on the upper cowl if I leaned on them.=C2- A total of four handsized a
reas are delaminating.=C2- There are other small areas as well. There is
no deformation inside or out, but a clear void is there.=C2- The honeycom
b is not visible in these areas when looking from the outside.=C2- Also,
there is a small dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I re
ceived the cowl.
=C2-
Pictures are at:=C2- http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=l
og_entry&log_id=32934 =C2-=C2- If you double click the photos, you ca
n get a closer look at the detail.
=C2-
I have zero experience with=C2-composites.=C2- Is there a solution to t
his that's feasible?=C2- Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it ar
ound to fill them?=C2-=C2-Or, do I need to remove these areas down to t
he substrate and then build them back up?=C2- How much of a structural is
sue could this be?
=C2-
Of course I don't want to start over.=C2- Anything reasonable is worth tr
ying.=C2-=C2-
=C2-
Thanks for any help or recommendations.
=C2-
Sean Blair
#40225 =C2- =C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://ww
=========== http://www.matronics.com/contribution htt
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I am at work till 0700Z. A quick look in the AC43.13 that you all have
handy on the workbench shows the passage as Section 8 "Tap Testing" and
listed as paragraph 5-105 to be found on page 5-53. The document is
available on the web for those that don't like the 8 pound tree trunk
sitting around.
I will cut and paste into a PDF file unless someone beats me to it.
Caveat - I have seen tapping so strong handed that the simple US quarter
can leave dents into the outer substrate. Learn to Lightly tap on a
good area to establish the acoustic ring. Move to the offending area
and you will never forget a void, defect, water or other occlusion.
Good Luck
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
dogsbark@comcast.net
Sent: Sun 11/30/2008 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Delamination
Hey everyone,
Thanks so much for the assistance both on the phone and through the
list. Your efforts are appreciated.
I will lean toward a replacement cowl. For now, I think just the
top....but I wonder if there may be thickness differences or any other
tollerence issues mating the green and the pink halves together. Did
Van's change vendors altogether? M&W does the green one I have.
I agree with John Gonzalez's thought of the problem occurring during
production. It seems not enough vacuum was present to make all areas
establish proper contact and remove all voids. There is no deformation
though. Only the exterior displays this degree of seperation. It's
still puzzling to me that there is a nickel size area of filler directly
above one of the largest voids.
My build number is 40225. I purchased the entire airframe, with finish
kit, within a year of my start date of May 2004. John Cox's advise of
visual inspection of all parts being SOP prior to construction is a good
idea. I've been fairly good about this....I guess not this time.
Well....I'll move on from here. Does anyone know where I can get pink
microbaloons in case the second one doesn't turn out as well? ;-)
Thanks again everyone!
Sean Blair
#40225
Colorado Springs...snowing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney@shaw.ca>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:54:21 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
Hi John
Would you post the "tap test" instructions? It would be a good thing to
have in the archive.
Cheers
Les
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: November-30-08 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
Visual inspection of all VAN parts is SOP along with inventory of
received goods. Tap Testing of composite parts is a wise idea. If you
need directions, on how to Tap Test, write me and I will forward the
process. The old Blue/Green composite material is far different from
the newer pink panther version two . All builders should look at their
First Generation Blue/Green components to make sure they do not have
production DELAM. The Second Generation Pink production parts seem to
have a slight improved product, mold and final finish.
I can feel Sean's pain. Thank goodness it was not found after the final
topcoat was applied.
John C
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
I agree with John on this completly. Vans should have examined this as
they received it from their vendor and for sure not shipped it to the
end user. From the pics it looks like Sean has spent alot of time
fitting the whole assembly nicely. Even if Vans does replace it Sean has
hours and hours of rework time. Not what a homebuilder looks forward
to..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became
delaminated. I would disagree, these areas in the pictures look as
though they where never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not
pull the honeycomb down onto the outside skin.
This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received
by Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.
Thanks for the pictures, it will give others what to look for before
starting in on a fiberglass part.
JOhn Gonzalez
________________________________
From: dogsbark@comcast.net
Subject: RV10-List: Delamination
Okay composite experts....I need your help, please.
I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.
Much to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots
on the upper cowl if I leaned on them. A total of four handsized areas
are delaminating. There are other small areas as well. There is no
deformation inside or out, but a clear void is there. The honeycomb is
not visible in these areas when looking from the outside. Also, there
is a small dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I
received the cowl.
Pictures are at:
http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=329
34 If you double click the photos, you can get a closer look at the
detail.
I have zero experience with composites. Is there a solution to this
that's feasible? Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around
to fill them? Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate
and then build them back up? How much of a structural issue could this
be?
Of course I don't want to start over. Anything reasonable is worth
trying.
Thanks for any help or recommendations.
Sean Blair
#40225
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
p://forums.matronics.com
Message 11
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For those who do not sleep and eat with the AC43.13 next to their bed or
table:
Our Qualification Test for NDI or NDT, had the applicant tap test a
sample of composite honeycomb about 8" x 6" x 0.6250" and identify the
various pitch changes. This included an area of resin rich, resin lean,
delaminations like in Sean's cowl, a potted stainless insert and an area
of crush damage to the honeycomb underlayment. The applicant could not
see the underside until after marking with a grease pencil the virgin
topside for scoring. Abarus in Nevada is the best in the West for
Professional Composite Training at a high price tag.
In actual practice we are looking in the field for delamination,
moisture penetration and separation of differing materials. One of the
big challenges was a void in the adhesion of Nickel Sheathing on the
leading edge of Composite propeller blades. Another was significant
water infiltration through the porosity of natural topcoat epoxy paint
under the engine area. We are now using Thermography and Acoustic
Ultrasound techniques to find errant moisture. Sorry to those of you who
are bored with such things.
For the rest of the RV-10 community, a careful study of Sean's great
pictures is enough to drive home the potential of exterior BID
separation from honeycomb. If in Northern California, sign up for Dave
Saylor's next class and "Press to Test" on the subject. This is a big
help in composite products.
John Cox
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination
Hi John
Would you post the "tap test" instructions? It would be a good thing to
have in the archive.
Cheers
Les
Pictures are at:
http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=329
34
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