Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:48 AM - Re: Fuel injection servo attachment - concerned ? (nukeflyboy)
2. 06:09 AM - Re: Page 9-15 Step 7, Trim cable attachment question (Joe McKervey)
3. 08:17 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
4. 09:09 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (lessdragprod@aol.com)
5. 09:11 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (Bob and Karen Brown)
6. 09:21 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (John Cox)
7. 09:35 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (John Cox)
8. 10:20 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (pascal)
9. 11:50 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (John Cox)
10. 12:35 PM - Re: New Hartzell Available (John Ackerman)
11. 01:25 PM - Re: New Hartzell Available (ddddsp1@juno.com)
12. 01:40 PM - Re: New Hartzell Available (Jesse Saint)
13. 01:40 PM - Re: New Hartzell Available (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
14. 02:43 PM - rear window install (Bob-tcw)
15. 03:04 PM - Re: rear window install (DLIUDVINAITIS@aol.com)
16. 03:10 PM - Re: New Hartzell Available (Tim Olson)
17. 03:46 PM - Re: Another Milestone (geoff Combs)
18. 04:34 PM - Re: Another Milestone (Evan & Tania)
19. 04:34 PM - Re: New Hartzell Available (John Cox)
20. 06:22 PM - Re: New Hartzell Available (pascal)
21. 07:35 PM - Re: Adel Pliers (Bill Schlatterer)
22. 08:58 PM - Flightline AC system for sale (rvdave)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel injection servo attachment - concerned ? |
AirMike,
There are many ways to lock a bolt in place and there is nothing wrong with the
tabs that were sent with the kit. They work fine and are a recognized way of
safetying a bolt to prevent backing out. So is staking but bent tabs are much
easier for homebuilders. Often times it is not practical to safety wire and
this is a good substitute. Of course you can only use it once.
You can replace it with a drilled head/safety wire combo if you like, but it is
not correct to say it is "dangerous".
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - cabin top/fiberglass hell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233566#233566
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Page 9-15 Step 7, Trim cable attachment question |
John,
I drilled my aftermarket trim cable attachments with a 6-32 tap drill
,counter sunk the bracket, dimpled the cover and attached them with
stainless steel 6-32 screws.
Much easier to adjust.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Trollinger" <john@trollingers.com>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Page 9-15 Step 7, Trim cable attachment question
>
> So I bought the after market trim cable attachment brackets from
> Cleavland tools and am ready to assemble. The vans instructions say
> to use a LP4-3 to put the pieces together. The aftermarket bracket is
> pretty thick and I was thinking about dimpling the WD-415 and then
> countersinking the bracket to accept the dimple and then using an
> AN-426 and back rivet it together.
>
> Just wanted to get some group feedback on my plan and see what others
> using these brackets have done.
>
> thanks,
>
> John Trollinger
>
> Builder 40923
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | New Hartzell Available |
I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14" spinner, asse
mbly, and shipping. You don't pay extra for a 14" spinner with MT. I did
get a bit of a price break because it was one that someone had ordered and
then backed out on but this was only a couple months ago.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Just a point of clarification... The panel image I posted was of Deems' lay
out as Vern thought Deems was using the Avidyne system. I wanted to answer
for Deems as he is otherwise occupied. (I went with the G900X/Dynon Back Up
)
As far as props go... $15,000 is in the ball park when compared with the ot
her 3 blades out there. Throw in a custom paint scheme. Cough, cough (Deems
) and my guess is that all 3 blades are running $15 ish. Unfortunately with
all the equipment out there we still have no, zero, zilch, nada side by si
de comparisons. So how is one to know what is the fastest or best option? M
y choice was $6.5k, two blades and easy cowl removal. Heck most of my frien
ds don't have an airplane so ego still intact. I have a feeling that when a
ll is said & done the BA Hartzell may be the fastest of them all in cruise.
Of note those thinking of the James cowl will need to buy a $1,100+ 14" spi
nner.
My Barrett / Forsling / James Fire Breather "Chunky Monkey" is almost dress
ed (painted)...
Robin
Do Not Archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
Just a point of clearification here.=C2- Michael's 3 blade MT propeller wa
s a new propeller available for comparison=C2-flight testing on=C2-a fly
ing RV-10 with a 2 blade hartzell.=C2- With no takers in over a year, I so
ld the propeller to Michael.
I have new RV-10 3 blade MT propellers available for $9,890 delivered assemb
led to your closest international airport.=C2- 13" or 14" spinner included
.
Standard colors are Red, White, Grey, Black and Yellow for the blades, blade
tips and spinner.
Grey with White tips is recommended for IFR aircraft.
Black with Yellow tips was the old CAA required blade colors.
As a special offer, White blades with Red, White and Blue tips is available.
A Hi-Glo spinner (looks like polished aluminum) is available for an extra $4
50.
Sorry if this offens the SPAM sensitive.=C2- Just real prices.
Please contact me off line, or directly at the phone numbers below, if you d
esire additional information.
Jim Ayers
jim@lessdrag.com
Less Drag products, Inc - Located in California (805) 795-5377
Custom Aircraft Propeller - Located in Florida (321) 441-3544
-----Original Message-----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:14 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
=C2- I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14=9D s
pinner, assembly, and shipping.=C2- You don=99t pay extra for a 14
=9D spinner with MT.=C2- I did get a bit of a price break because
it was one that someone had ordered and then backed out on but this was onl
y a couple months ago.
=C2-
Michael
=C2-
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
=C2-
Just a point of clarification The panel image I posted was of Deems
=99 layout as Vern thought Deems was using the Avidyne system. I wante
d to answer for Deems as he is otherwise occupied. (I went with the G900X/Dy
non Back Up)
As far as props go $15,000 is in the ball park when compared with t
he other 3 blades out there. Throw in a custom paint scheme. Cough, cough (D
eems) and my guess is that all 3 blades are running $15 ish. Unfortunately w
ith all the equipment out there we still have no, zero, zilch, nada side by
side comparisons. So how is one to know what is the fastest or best option?
My choice was $6.5k, two blades and easy cowl removal. Heck most of my frien
ds don=99t have an airplane so ego still intact. I have a feeling that
when all is said & done the BA Hartzell may be the fastest of them all in c
ruise.
Of note those thinking of the James cowl will need to buy a $1,100+ 14
=9D spinner.
My Barrett / Forsling / James Fire Breather "Chunky Monkey" is almost dresse
d (painted)
=C2-
Robin
Do Not Archive
=C2-=C2-
=C2-
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Message 5
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| Subject: | New Hartzell Available |
I don't believe you pay extra for the 14" spinner from Aerocomposites
either.
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:15 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14" spinner,
assembly, and shipping. You don't pay extra for a 14" spinner with MT. I
did get a bit of a price break because it was one that someone had ordered
and then backed out on but this was only a couple months ago.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Just a point of clarification. The panel image I posted was of Deems' layout
as Vern thought Deems was using the Avidyne system. I wanted to answer for
Deems as he is otherwise occupied. (I went with the G900X/Dynon Back Up)
As far as props go. $15,000 is in the ball park when compared with the other
3 blades out there. Throw in a custom paint scheme. Cough, cough (Deems) and
my guess is that all 3 blades are running $15 ish. Unfortunately with all
the equipment out there we still have no, zero, zilch, nada side by side
comparisons. So how is one to know what is the fastest or best option? My
choice was $6.5k, two blades and easy cowl removal. Heck most of my friends
don't have an airplane so ego still intact. I have a feeling that when all
is said & done the BA Hartzell may be the fastest of them all in cruise.
Of note those thinking of the James cowl will need to buy a $1,100+ 14"
spinner.
My Barrett / Forsling / James Fire Breather "Chunky Monkey" is almost
dressed (painted).
Robin
Do Not Archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | New Hartzell Available |
Can we agree the Hartzell two blade assembly is lighter and faster in
cruise? The 3 blade is prettier to some builders. The composite blades
dampens combustion impulses better than aluminum blades. Some aluminum
blades have rpm restrictions. Some 3 blades can climb quicker to
altitude than two. Some builders report quieter cockpits and less
harmonic vibrations. Some builders choose to spend more on selected
features than more fiscally restricted or conservative types.
Some of the builders helped raise the bar and improve the finished
product through Add-ons. The G900 is one of those, the OP Tech was one,
the VP200 is one, The Grimstad pedal retro is a pair, the 3 Blade
composite is one such assembly, TCW products are a whole line and the
aftermarket composite components can lead to improvements in speed,
appearance and builder pride. Some beautiful adds cost more, add weight
and can raise the bar all in one fell swoop.
Congrats "Chunky Monkey". Thanks guys for making the choices so diverse
and this group so tolerant of the progressive builders and vital kit -
The VANS RV-10.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:15 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14" spinner,
assembly, and shipping. You don't pay extra for a 14" spinner with MT.
I did get a bit of a price break because it was one that someone had
ordered and then backed out on but this was only a couple months ago.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Just a point of clarification... The panel image I posted was of Deems'
layout as Vern thought Deems was using the Avidyne system. I wanted to
answer for Deems as he is otherwise occupied. (I went with the
G900X/Dynon Back Up)
As far as props go... $15,000 is in the ball park when compared with the
other 3 blades out there. Throw in a custom paint scheme. Cough, cough
(Deems) and my guess is that all 3 blades are running $15 ish.
Unfortunately with all the equipment out there we still have no, zero,
zilch, nada side by side comparisons. So how is one to know what is the
fastest or best option? My choice was $6.5k, two blades and easy cowl
removal. Heck most of my friends don't have an airplane so ego still
intact. I have a feeling that when all is said & done the BA Hartzell
may be the fastest of them all in cruise.
Of note those thinking of the James cowl will need to buy a $1,100+ 14"
spinner.
My Barrett / Forsling / James Fire Breather "Chunky Monkey" is almost
dressed (painted)...
Robin
Do Not Archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | New Hartzell Available |
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
This has come up before. Vic did a test next to the Van's plane
(attached) and I took away that the higher HP 3 blade still was slower
than the Van's 2 blade, Rob did a preliminary, if I recall, and it too
was slower than a 2 blade, Hartzell has told me outright that the 2
blade is faster than the composite three blade.
Three is more "sexy" but when it comes to performance at this point the
2 blade is the best value for the dollar.
Pascal
From: John Cox
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Jim, you could do a big favor to the experimental market by lobbying
Gert to allow custom blade paint on the MTs. Nothing against White
Blades, Black Blades, Grey blades but boy do the American
Propeller paint jobs get my juices flowing. Some RV-10s just look fast
standing on the ramp next to a G-IV.
I am sure Aerocomp blades would sell as many in stock "restricted" bland
paint colors but those finished blades are prettier in my eyes and
impact marketing= Sales. Enough so that money must be budgeted a
little tighter than I had planned originally.
And isn't it tragic that not one "Head to Head" has been done in all
this time. 190 finished, flying RV-10s, nearly 1,000 kits sold and Not
Hartzell, Nor MT nor Aerocomp will take the gauntlet. Rob, I understand
your timeline priorities on great new AFS products have distracted you,
but many are leaning into the prevailing winds to hear more on Field
Tests of the Hartzell ASC-II.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Just a point of clearification here. Michael's 3 blade MT propeller was
a new propeller available for comparison flight testing on a flying
RV-10 with a 2 blade hartzell. With no takers in over a year, I sold
the propeller to Michael.
I have new RV-10 3 blade MT propellers available for $9,890 delivered
assembled to your closest international airport. 13" or 14" spinner
included.
Standard colors are Red, White, Grey, Black and Yellow for the blades,
blade tips and spinner.
Grey with White tips is recommended for IFR aircraft.
Black with Yellow tips was the old CAA required blade colors.
As a special offer, White blades with Red, White and Blue tips is
available.
A Hi-Glo spinner (looks like polished aluminum) is available for an
extra $450.
Sorry if this offens the SPAM sensitive. Just real prices.
Please contact me off line, or directly at the phone numbers below, if
you desire additional information.
Jim Ayers
jim@lessdrag.com
Less Drag products, Inc - Located in California (805) 795-5377
Custom Aircraft Propeller - Located in Florida (321) 441-3544
-----Original Message-----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:14 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14=9D
spinner, assembly, and shipping. You don=99t pay extra for a
14=9D spinner with MT. I did get a bit of a price break because
it was one that someone had ordered and then backed out on but this was
only a couple months ago.
Michael
=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD
Message 9
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| Subject: | New Hartzell Available |
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Xw0KDQpn77+977+9DQoNCg=
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
No question in my mind - the two blade blended airfoil props generally
seem to be faster, at least in the comparisons that have been posted
here, and that's what I'd expect.
Faster is not, however, the same thing as higher performance - top
speed is only one characteristic that counts. For many of us, takeoff
and climb are more important than top speed. So is smoothness. It's
also not clear that cruise efficiency differs, or even which way it
differs. Finally, the thing that sold me on the Aerocomposites 3-blade
was the engineering and fabrication quality of blades, spinner, and
hub.
No question about the huge price difference, though. In July of 2008.
the Aerocomposites cost $14.2K, the spinner was $1.05K, and the paint
price depended on what kind of scheme you wanted. Clearly,I thought
the quality was worth a huge amount of money, and I'm not alone. Had
the Hartzell been available at the time we bought, it might have at
least been cause for much head scratching - maybe even a coin flip. We
shall see.
Do not archive.
John Ackerman
On Mar 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, pascal wrote:
> This has come up before. Vic did a test next to the Van's plane
> (attached) and I took away that the higher HP 3 blade still was
> slower than the Van's 2 blade, Rob did a preliminary, if I recall,
> and it too was slower than a 2 blade, Hartzell has told me outright
> that the 2 blade is faster than the composite three blade.
> Three is more "sexy" but when it comes to performance at this point
> the 2 blade is the best value for the dollar.
> Pascal
>
> From: John Cox
> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:32 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>
> Jim, you could do a big favor to the experimental market by lobbying
> Gert to allow custom blade paint on the MTs. Nothing against White
> Blades, Black Blades, Grey blades but boy do the American
> Propeller paint jobs get my juices flowing. Some RV-10s just look
> fast standing on the ramp next to a G-IV.
>
> I am sure Aerocomp blades would sell as many in stock "restricted"
> bland paint colors but those finished blades are prettier in my eyes
> and impact marketing= Sales. Enough so that money must be budgeted
> a little tighter than I had planned originally.
>
> And isn't it tragic that not one "Head to Head" has been done in all
> this time. 190 finished, flying RV-10s, nearly 1,000 kits sold and
> Not Hartzell, Nor MT nor Aerocomp will take the gauntlet. Rob, I
> understand your timeline priorities on great new AFS products have
> distracted you, but many are leaning into the prevailing winds to
> hear more on Field Tests of the Hartzell ASC-II.
>
> John
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of lessdragprod@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:08 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>
> Just a point of clearification here. Michael's 3 blade MT propeller
> was a new propeller available for comparison flight testing on a
> flying RV-10 with a 2 blade hartzell. With no takers in over a
> year, I sold the propeller to Michael.
>
> I have new RV-10 3 blade MT propellers available for $9,890
> delivered assembled to your closest international airport. 13" or
> 14" spinner included.
>
> Standard colors are Red, White, Grey, Black and Yellow for the
> blades, blade tips and spinner.
> Grey with White tips is recommended for IFR aircraft.
> Black with Yellow tips was the old CAA required blade colors.
> As a special offer, White blades with Red, White and Blue tips is
> available.
>
> A Hi-Glo spinner (looks like polished aluminum) is available for an
> extra $450.
>
> Sorry if this offens the SPAM sensitive. Just real prices.
>
> Please contact me off line, or directly at the phone numbers below,
> if you desire additional information.
>
> Jim Ayers
> jim@lessdrag.com
> Less Drag products, Inc - Located in California (805) 795-5377
> Custom Aircraft Propeller - Located in Florida (321) 441-3544
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:14 am
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
> I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14=9D
> spinner, assembly, and shipping. You don=99t pay extra for a
14=9D
> spinner with MT. I did get a bit of a price break because it was
> one that someone had ordered and then backed out on but this was
> only a couple months ago.
>
> Michael
>
> =EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD <prop
performance.jpg>
Message 11
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| Subject: | New Hartzell Available |
HARD HEADED? No way!
Dean ;)
PS: Why is $$ still an issue when building an RV?
____________________________________________________________
Criminal Lawyers - Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsMx6xCaygWtCqZeqmjGzEx
4BrbqCZ9EsN3WmNp0Xky6vospv1OnVO/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
I agree completely with John. There is also, although maybe slight
with the quality of the kit, a possibility of differences in the
airframes and engines being tested. I know one -10 that has seen
184KTAS confirmed with groundspeed averaged runs. Others can't get
over 176 or so max.
I think I would even take it a notch past John in that the only true
comparison can be the same plane with different props bolted on. I
believe herein lies the problem. Who wants to take the time to bolt a
3-blade prop onto their 2-blade plane just to give numbers to others,
since their decision was already made (and vice versa, of course).
Ideally, two high-time -10'ers could fly side by side, comparing
ground roll, climb rate, cruise speed (all at equal engine settings)
and then swap props and do the same tests. This would give the pilots
reporting an opportunity to see what their plane would do with another
prop. A cross-country trip would be fantastic as well, swapping props
for the return trip to compare total fuel burn for formation climbs
and cruise, or comparing total trip time at the same cruising altitude.
This could also give a high-time pilot the chance to "feel" the
difference. I know a problem with this is the dynamic balancing
issue. If a prop is dynamically balanced for one plane and then is
put on another, it may not "feel" as good as it could if it were also
dynamically balanced for that specific plane.
It's time to get back to work, but I would personally love to see a
comparison of these, but I wonder how many would actually change their
mind. IMHO, I think the 2 blade is the best all-around prop for the
-10 because of cost (Van's price is fantastic on this prop), the fact
that it is aluminum (In my bush flying experience composite props
don't last very long, so call me biased), ease of cowling installation
and removal and top speed at given settings (according to most common
wisdom). The -10, IMHO, already takes off and climbs so well that I
have a hard time believing, except in extreme cases, that higher take-
off and climb performance would be necessary. I would take a -10 over
a 180HP STOL 172 or a STOL 206 for takeoff and climb off grass any
day, although when the grass gets rough, it's hard to beat the Cessna
gear. I have yet to see a Cirrus or Columbia demonstrate any kind of
performance on takeoff that is even in the same class as the -10.
That said, if the airstrip was 300 yards long or at 9,500msl, I might
thing about a 3-blade regardless of cruise performance (extreme cases
as mentioned above). I have taken off in a -10 at 9,500msl at gross
weight (uphill, not less) and was quite happy with the performance,
but I did probably use as much runway as a Cirrus typically does at my
home field at 65msl.
OK, now it's really time to get back to work.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Mar 7, 2009, at 2:44 PM, John Cox wrote:
> Call me stubborn, but I did not accept the referenced test as valid
> then or now. Will still lust after a long x-cntry with similar
> engined RV-10s running a Hartzell 2 blade aluminum egg beater, a
> Hartzell 3 blade Composite, an MT and an Aerocomp on an extended
> trip. Time to climb, LOP ops, Cruise fuel flow and comfort could
> all be factored with teams switching ponies on various legs to
> validate parochial bias.
>
> We have the technology, I will await a valid comparison. The query
> comes up because Jim has not acknowledge the results of a test with
> his MT and I know of no unbiased test yet with all four flavors.
>
> Hard Headed in Aurora
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of pascal
> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:57 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>
> This has come up before. Vic did a test next to the Van's plane
> (attached) and I took away that the higher HP 3 blade still was
> slower than the Van's 2 blade, Rob did a preliminary, if I recall,
> and it too was slower than a 2 blade, Hartzell has told me outright
> that the 2 blade is faster than the composite three blade.
> Three is more "sexy" but when it comes to performance at this point
> the 2 blade is the best value for the dollar.
> Pascal
>
> From: John Cox
> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:32 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>
> Jim, you could do a big favor to the experimental market by lobbying
> Gert to allow custom blade paint on the MTs. Nothing against White
> Blades, Black Blades, Grey blades but boy do the American
> Propeller paint jobs get my juices flowing. Some RV-10s just look
> fast standing on the ramp next to a G-IV.
>
> I am sure Aerocomp blades would sell as many in stock "restricted"
> bland paint colors but those finished blades are prettier in my eyes
> and impact marketing= Sales. Enough so that money must be budgeted
> a little tighter than I had planned originally.
>
> And isn't it tragic that not one "Head to Head" has been done in all
> this time. 190 finished, flying RV-10s, nearly 1,000 kits sold and
> Not Hartzell, Nor MT nor Aerocomp will take the gauntlet. Rob, I
> understand your timeline priorities on great new AFS products have
> distracted you, but many are leaning into the prevailing winds to
> hear more on Field Tests of the Hartzell ASC-II.
>
> John
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of lessdragprod@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:08 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>
> Just a point of clearification here. Michael's 3 blade MT propeller
> was a new propeller available for comparison flight testing on a
> flying RV-10 with a 2 blade hartzell. With no takers in over a
> year, I sold the propeller to Michael.
>
> I have new RV-10 3 blade MT propellers available for $9,890
> delivered assembled to your closest international airport. 13" or
> 14" spinner included.
>
> Standard colors are Red, White, Grey, Black and Yellow for the
> blades, blade tips and spinner.
> Grey with White tips is recommended for IFR aircraft.
> Black with Yellow tips was the old CAA required blade colors.
> As a special offer, White blades with Red, White and Blue tips is
> available.
>
> A Hi-Glo spinner (looks like polished aluminum) is available for an
> extra $450.
>
> Sorry if this offens the SPAM sensitive. Just real prices.
>
> Please contact me off line, or directly at the phone numbers below,
> if you desire additional information.
>
> Jim Ayers
> jim@lessdrag.com
> Less Drag products, Inc - Located in California (805) 795-5377
> Custom Aircraft Propeller - Located in Florida (321) 441-3544
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:14 am
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
> I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14=9D
> spinner, assembly, and shipping. You don=99t pay extra for a
14=9D
> spinner with MT. I did get a bit of a price break because it was
> one that someone had ordered and then backed out on but this was
> only a couple months ago.
>
> Michael
>
> =EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,
> g=EF=BD=EF=BD
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | New Hartzell Available |
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Message 14
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| Subject: | rear window install |
I've been working on our canopy and overhead console and now have it
ready for final installation on the fuselage. Looking ahead, the plans
call for installing the rear windows after the canopy is permanently
installed. Has anyone done the rear window install with the canopy
off the fuselage?
The benefits seem to be :
1) a lot more clamping capability
2) the canopy can be turned so gravity is your friend with respect to
dealing with the Weld-on.
Thoughts and comments would be appreciated,
Bob Newman
40176
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: rear window install |
HEY BOB,
I'M FINISHING UP MY OVERHEAD AND DOING SMOOTH PRIMING, FILLING ALL THE PIN
HOLES, AS FOR INSTALLING REAR WINDOWS I'M WITH YOU ON INSTALLING ON BENCH,
GRAVITY DOES HELP WITH THE GOO. THATS THE WAY I WILL DO MY REAR WINDOWS, SOME
OTHERS HAVE DONE THIS AS WELL.
DAVE
#40466, CENTRAL NJ
In a message dated 3/7/2009 4:46:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
rnewman@tcwtech.com writes:
I've been working on our canopy and overhead console and now have it ready
for final installation on the fuselage. Looking ahead, the plans call for
installing the rear windows after the canopy is permanently installed. Has
anyone done the rear window install with the canopy off the fuselage?
The benefits seem to be :
1) a lot more clamping capability
2) the canopy can be turned so gravity is your friend with respect to
dealing with the Weld-on.
Thoughts and comments would be appreciated,
Bob Newman
40176
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
I will fly off the various prop....all on the same day. All they have
to do is GIVE me all of them for free and let me keep my favorite when
I'm done....At zero cost.
All must be brand new.
Tim
On Mar 7, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
> I agree completely with John. There is also, although maybe slight
> with the quality of the kit, a possibility of differences in the
> airframes and engines being tested. I know one -10 that has seen
> 184KTAS confirmed with groundspeed averaged runs. Others can't get
> over 176 or so max.
>
> I think I would even take it a notch past John in that the only true
> comparison can be the same plane with different props bolted on. I
> believe herein lies the problem. Who wants to take the time to bolt
> a 3-blade prop onto their 2-blade plane just to give numbers to
> others, since their decision was already made (and vice versa, of
> course).
>
> Ideally, two high-time -10'ers could fly side by side, comparing
> ground roll, climb rate, cruise speed (all at equal engine settings)
> and then swap props and do the same tests. This would give the
> pilots reporting an opportunity to see what their plane would do
> with another prop. A cross-country trip would be fantastic as well,
> swapping props for the return trip to compare total fuel burn for
> formation climbs and cruise, or comparing total trip time at the
> same cruising altitude.
>
> This could also give a high-time pilot the chance to "feel" the
> difference. I know a problem with this is the dynamic balancing
> issue. If a prop is dynamically balanced for one plane and then is
> put on another, it may not "feel" as good as it could if it were
> also dynamically balanced for that specific plane.
>
> It's time to get back to work, but I would personally love to see a
> comparison of these, but I wonder how many would actually change
> their mind. IMHO, I think the 2 blade is the best all-around prop
> for the -10 because of cost (Van's price is fantastic on this prop),
> the fact that it is aluminum (In my bush flying experience composite
> props don't last very long, so call me biased), ease of cowling
> installation and removal and top speed at given settings (according
> to most common wisdom). The -10, IMHO, already takes off and climbs
> so well that I have a hard time believing, except in extreme cases,
> that higher take-off and climb performance would be necessary. I
> would take a -10 over a 180HP STOL 172 or a STOL 206 for takeoff and
> climb off grass any day, although when the grass gets rough, it's
> hard to beat the Cessna gear. I have yet to see a Cirrus or
> Columbia demonstrate any kind of performance on takeoff that is even
> in the same class as the -10. That said, if the airstrip was 300
> yards long or at 9,500msl, I might thing about a 3-blade regardless
> of cruise performance (extreme cases as mentioned above). I have
> taken off in a -10 at 9,500msl at gross weight (uphill, not less)
> and was quite happy with the performance, but I did probably use as
> much runway as a Cirrus typically does at my home field at 65msl.
>
> OK, now it's really time to get back to work.
>
> do not archive
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> On Mar 7, 2009, at 2:44 PM, John Cox wrote:
>
>> Call me stubborn, but I did not accept the referenced test as valid
>> then or now. Will still lust after a long x-cntry with similar
>> engined RV-10s running a Hartzell 2 blade aluminum egg beater, a
>> Hartzell 3 blade Composite, an MT and an Aerocomp on an extended
>> trip. Time to climb, LOP ops, Cruise fuel flow and comfort could
>> all be factored with teams switching ponies on various legs to
>> validate parochial bias.
>>
>> We have the technology, I will await a valid comparison. The query
>> comes up because Jim has not acknowledge the results of a test with
>> his MT and I know of no unbiased test yet with all four flavors.
>>
>> Hard Headed in Aurora
>>
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> ] On Behalf Of pascal
>> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:57 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>>
>> This has come up before. Vic did a test next to the Van's plane
>> (attached) and I took away that the higher HP 3 blade still was
>> slower than the Van's 2 blade, Rob did a preliminary, if I recall,
>> and it too was slower than a 2 blade, Hartzell has told me outright
>> that the 2 blade is faster than the composite three blade.
>> Three is more "sexy" but when it comes to performance at this point
>> the 2 blade is the best value for the dollar.
>> Pascal
>>
>> From: John Cox
>> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:32 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>>
>> Jim, you could do a big favor to the experimental market by
>> lobbying Gert to allow custom blade paint on the MTs. Nothing
>> against White Blades, Black Blades, Grey blades but boy do
the Am
>> erican Propeller paint jobs get my juices flowing. Some RV-10s ju
>> st look fast standing on the ramp next to a G-IV.
>>
>> I am sure Aerocomp blades would sell as many in stock "restricted"
>> bland paint colors but those finished blades are prettier in my
>> eyes and impact marketing= Sales. Enough so that money must be
>> budgeted a little tighter than I had planned originally.
>>
>> And isn't it tragic that not one "Head to Head" has been done in
>> all this time. 190 finished, flying RV-10s, nearly 1,000 kits sold
>> and Not Hartzell, Nor MT nor Aerocomp will take the gauntlet. Rob,
>> I understand your timeline priorities on great new AFS products
>> have distracted you, but many are leaning into the prevailing winds
>> to hear more on Field Tests of the Hartzell ASC-II.
>>
>> John
>>
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> ] On Behalf Of lessdragprod@aol.com
>> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:08 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>>
>> Just a point of clearification here. Michael's 3 blade MT
>> propeller was a new propeller available for comparison flight
>> testing on a flying RV-10 with a 2 blade hartzell. With no takers
>> in over a year, I sold the propeller to Michael.
>>
>> I have new RV-10 3 blade MT propellers available for $9,890
>> delivered assembled to your closest international airport. 13" or
>> 14" spinner included.
>>
>> Standard colors are Red, White, Grey, Black and Yellow for the
>> blades, blade tips and spinner.
>> Grey with White tips is recommended for IFR aircraft.
>> Black with Yellow tips was the old CAA required blade colors.
>> As a special offer, White blades with Red, White and Blue tips is
>> available.
>>
>> A Hi-Glo spinner (looks like polished aluminum) is available for an
>> extra $450.
>>
>> Sorry if this offens the SPAM sensitive. Just real prices.
>>
>> Please contact me off line, or directly at the phone numbers below,
>> if you desire additional information.
>>
>> Jim Ayers
>> jim@lessdrag.com
>> Less Drag products, Inc - Located in California (805) 795-5377
>> Custom Aircraft Propeller - Located in Florida (321) 441-3544
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:14 am
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
>> I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14=9D
spin
>> ner, assembly, and shipping. You don=99t pay extra for a 14
=9D
>> spinner with MT. I did get a bit of a price break because it was
>> one that someone had ordered and then backed out on but this was o
>> nly a couple months ago.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> =EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,
>> g=EF=BD=EF=BD
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> black; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com
>> style="color: black; text-decoration: underline;
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Another Milestone |
I can't wait to have that same smile on my face. Great airplane Deems.
Geoff
--------
Build QB RV-10 N829GW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233631#233631
Message 18
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| Subject: | Another Milestone |
Fantastic photo and result Deems!
Evan & Tania Andrews
40379 Flying
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Saturday, 7 March 2009 11:30 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Another Milestone
Well today marked another pretty big milestone for me. Gary Towner (DAR)
drove down from Overgaard today, and performed an inspection of N519PJ.
Gary had all of the parperwork ready, except for the affidavit, that I
had to have notarized, and we began by completing the required forms.
Made appropriate entry in my (new) Airframe log book, and then we moved
to the inspection. Gary's primary focus and concern was the flight
controls. we began inside of the cockpit, and then proceeded outside to
all of the flight surfaces and connections. His next stop was the
firewall forward area. I pointed out to him one item I noticed
yesterday, where I hadn't sealed (RTV) a firewall passthrough. Gary
spent about 1 1/2 hours on the inspection, and didn't note any squawks.
We moved back to finalize the A/W certificate, and went through the Ops
Limitations. Gary gave me a REALLY big Phase 1 test area. Essentially
DVT to Kingman, to Laughlin (Colorado River) down the river to Parker
then SouthEast all the way to Casa Grande, then back west of PHX
(Goodyear, Glendale) and back to DVT. Gary helped walk me through the
repairmans cert application, and then handed me the A/W cert and the Ops
Lim and made the official entry in the Airframe logbook.
1st flight will occur as soon as the FAA sends my medical. My AME said
to expect May1 :'(
http://deemsrv10.com/album/Final%20Assembly/slides/DSC07403.html
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done............ period!
http://deemsrv10.com/
E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
Database version: 5.11910
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
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Message 19
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| Subject: | New Hartzell Available |
And I thought fuel would have to be provided. Here is the attached file
that Pascal referenced. It has been a year but then I keep every article
and picture... what can I say. Randy's was running an ole style
reconditioned 2 blade Hartzell, Ken S was implying that Vic's aircraft
did not deliver the power represented by his engine builder, the specs
were compared for N104ME at a higher altitude and greater flying weight.
Before Tim offered, I was about to through sponsorship money into a
kitty. Each aircraft would have to be ballast loaded to the same CG and
same T.O. weight. All would have to have the same fuel. They would all
fly the same course. They would be timed. The fuel consumed, time
enroute and settings would have do be Data Logged. As many guys who
want to participate could. I would love it if all four flavors were
represented at the same time.
You have to read the parochial propaganda bent in the enclosed article.
Have fun. Hope Matt does not strip off the article.
John Cox
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Tim Olson
Sent: Sat 3/7/2009 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
I will fly off the various prop....all on the same day. All they have
to do is GIVE me all of them for free and let me keep my favorite when
I'm done....At zero cost.
All must be brand new.
Tim
On Mar 7, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
I agree completely with John. There is also, although maybe slight
with the quality of the kit, a possibility of differences in the
airframes and engines being tested. I know one -10 that has seen
184KTAS confirmed with groundspeed averaged runs. Others can't get over
176 or so max.
I think I would even take it a notch past John in that the only true
comparison can be the same plane with different props bolted on. I
believe herein lies the problem. Who wants to take the time to bolt a
3-blade prop onto their 2-blade plane just to give numbers to others,
since their decision was already made (and vice versa, of course).
Ideally, two high-time -10'ers could fly side by side, comparing ground
roll, climb rate, cruise speed (all at equal engine settings) and then
swap props and do the same tests. This would give the pilots reporting
an opportunity to see what their plane would do with another prop. A
cross-country trip would be fantastic as well, swapping props for the
return trip to compare total fuel burn for formation climbs and cruise,
or comparing total trip time at the same cruising altitude.
This could also give a high-time pilot the chance to "feel" the
difference. I know a problem with this is the dynamic balancing issue.
If a prop is dynamically balanced for one plane and then is put on
another, it may not "feel" as good as it could if it were also
dynamically balanced for that specific plane.
It's time to get back to work, but I would personally love to see a
comparison of these, but I wonder how many would actually change their
mind. IMHO, I think the 2 blade is the best all-around prop for the -10
because of cost (Van's price is fantastic on this prop), the fact that
it is aluminum (In my bush flying experience composite props don't last
very long, so call me biased), ease of cowling installation and removal
and top speed at given settings (according to most common wisdom). The
-10, IMHO, already takes off and climbs so well that I have a hard time
believing, except in extreme cases, that higher take-off and climb
performance would be necessary. I would take a -10 over a 180HP STOL
172 or a STOL 206 for takeoff and climb off grass any day, although when
the grass gets rough, it's hard to beat the Cessna gear. I have yet to
see a Cirrus or Columbia demonstrate any kind of performance on takeoff
that is even in the same class as the -10. That said, if the airstrip
was 300 yards long or at 9,500msl, I might thing about a 3-blade
regardless of cruise performance (extreme cases as mentioned above). I
have taken off in a -10 at 9,500msl at gross weight (uphill, not less)
and was quite happy with the performance, but I did probably use as much
runway as a Cirrus typically does at my home field at 65msl.
OK, now it's really time to get back to work.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
<mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com> jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Mar 7, 2009, at 2:44 PM, John Cox wrote:
Call me stubborn, but I did not accept the referenced test as valid
then or now. Will still lust after a long x-cntry with similar engined
RV-10s running a Hartzell 2 blade aluminum egg beater, a Hartzell 3
blade Composite, an MT and an Aerocomp on an extended trip. Time to
climb, LOP ops, Cruise fuel flow and comfort could all be factored with
teams switching ponies on various legs to validate parochial bias.
We have the technology, I will await a valid comparison. The query
comes up because Jim has not acknowledge the results of a test with his
MT and I know of no unbiased test yet with all four flavors.
Hard Headed in Aurora
From: <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of pascal
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:57 AM
To: <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com> rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
This has come up before. Vic did a test next to the Van's plane
(attached) and I took away that the higher HP 3 blade still was slower
than the Van's 2 blade, Rob did a preliminary, if I recall, and it too
was slower than a 2 blade, Hartzell has told me outright that the 2
blade is faster than the composite three blade.
Three is more "sexy" but when it comes to performance at this point
the 2 blade is the best value for the dollar.
Pascal
From: John Cox <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:32 AM
To: <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com> rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Jim, you could do a big favor to the experimental market by lobbying
Gert to allow custom blade paint on the MTs. Nothing against White
Blades, Black Blades, Grey blades... but boy do the American Propeller
paint jobs get my juices flowing. Some RV-10s just look fast standing
on the ramp next to a G-IV.
I am sure Aerocomp blades would sell as many in stock "restricted"
bland paint colors but those finished blades are prettier in my eyes and
impact marketing= Sales. Enough so that money must be budgeted a
little tighter than I had planned originally.
And isn't it tragic that not one "Head to Head" has been done in all
this time. 190 finished, flying RV-10s, nearly 1,000 kits sold and Not
Hartzell, Nor MT nor Aerocomp will take the gauntlet. Rob, I understand
your timeline priorities on great new AFS products have distracted you,
but many are leaning into the prevailing winds to hear more on Field
Tests of the Hartzell ASC-II.
John
From: <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
<mailto:lessdragprod@aol.com> lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:08 AM
To: <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com> rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Just a point of clearification here. Michael's 3 blade MT propeller
was a new propeller available for comparison flight testing on a flying
RV-10 with a 2 blade hartzell. With no takers in over a year, I sold
the propeller to Michael.
I have new RV-10 3 blade MT propellers available for $9,890 delivered
assembled to your closest international airport. 13" or 14" spinner
included.
Standard colors are Red, White, Grey, Black and Yellow for the blades,
blade tips and spinner.
Grey with White tips is recommended for IFR aircraft.
Black with Yellow tips was the old CAA required blade colors.
As a special offer, White blades with Red, White and Blue tips is
available.
A Hi-Glo spinner (looks like polished aluminum) is available for an
extra $450.
Sorry if this offens the SPAM sensitive. Just real prices.
Please contact me off line, or directly at the phone numbers below, if
you desire additional information.
Jim Ayers
<mailto:jim@lessdrag.com> jim@lessdrag.com
Less Drag products, Inc - Located in California (805) 795-5377
Custom Aircraft Propeller - Located in Florida (321) 441-3544
-----Original Message-----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) < <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com> rv10-list@matronics.com <
<mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com> rv10-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:14 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14" spinner,
assembly, and shipping. You don't pay extra for a 14" spinner with MT.
I did get a bit of a price break because it was one that someone had
ordered and then backed out on but this was only a couple months ago.
Michael
??~??,
________________________________
g??
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
black; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
style="color: black; text-decoration: underline;
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
Thanks John, I thought I sent the complete article..
I think a meeting is needed with all flavors, Tim, Rob, Deems and a 3
blade MT contender all meet up at local airport and do a systematic
test.
From: John Cox
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:25 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
And I thought fuel would have to be provided. Here is the attached file
that Pascal referenced. It has been a year but then I keep every article
and picture... what can I say. Randy's was running an ole style
reconditioned 2 blade Hartzell, Ken S was implying that Vic's aircraft
did not deliver the power represented by his engine builder, the specs
were compared for N104ME at a higher altitude and greater flying weight.
Before Tim offered, I was about to through sponsorship money into a
kitty. Each aircraft would have to be ballast loaded to the same CG and
same T.O. weight. All would have to have the same fuel. They would all
fly the same course. They would be timed. The fuel consumed, time
enroute and settings would have do be Data Logged. As many guys who
want to participate could. I would love it if all four flavors were
represented at the same time.
You have to read the parochial propaganda bent in the enclosed article.
Have fun. Hope Matt does not strip off the article.
John Cox
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Tim Olson
Sent: Sat 3/7/2009 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
I will fly off the various prop....all on the same day. All they have
to do is GIVE me all of them for free and let me keep my favorite when
I'm done....At zero cost.
All must be brand new.
Tim
On Mar 7, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
I agree completely with John. There is also, although maybe slight
with the quality of the kit, a possibility of differences in the
airframes and engines being tested. I know one -10 that has seen
184KTAS confirmed with groundspeed averaged runs. Others can't get over
176 or so max.
I think I would even take it a notch past John in that the only true
comparison can be the same plane with different props bolted on. I
believe herein lies the problem. Who wants to take the time to bolt a
3-blade prop onto their 2-blade plane just to give numbers to others,
since their decision was already made (and vice versa, of course).
Ideally, two high-time -10'ers could fly side by side, comparing
ground roll, climb rate, cruise speed (all at equal engine settings) and
then swap props and do the same tests. This would give the pilots
reporting an opportunity to see what their plane would do with another
prop. A cross-country trip would be fantastic as well, swapping props
for the return trip to compare total fuel burn for formation climbs and
cruise, or comparing total trip time at the same cruising altitude.
This could also give a high-time pilot the chance to "feel" the
difference. I know a problem with this is the dynamic balancing issue.
If a prop is dynamically balanced for one plane and then is put on
another, it may not "feel" as good as it could if it were also
dynamically balanced for that specific plane.
It's time to get back to work, but I would personally love to see a
comparison of these, but I wonder how many would actually change their
mind. IMHO, I think the 2 blade is the best all-around prop for the -10
because of cost (Van's price is fantastic on this prop), the fact that
it is aluminum (In my bush flying experience composite props don't last
very long, so call me biased), ease of cowling installation and removal
and top speed at given settings (according to most common wisdom). The
-10, IMHO, already takes off and climbs so well that I have a hard time
believing, except in extreme cases, that higher take-off and climb
performance would be necessary. I would take a -10 over a 180HP STOL
172 or a STOL 206 for takeoff and climb off grass any day, although when
the grass gets rough, it's hard to beat the Cessna gear. I have yet to
see a Cirrus or Columbia demonstrate any kind of performance on takeoff
that is even in the same class as the -10. That said, if the airstrip
was 300 yards long or at 9,500msl, I might thing about a 3-blade
regardless of cruise performance (extreme cases as mentioned above). I
have taken off in a -10 at 9,500msl at gross weight (uphill, not less)
and was quite happy with the performance, but I did probably use as much
runway as a Cirrus typically does at my home field at 65msl.
OK, now it's really time to get back to work.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Mar 7, 2009, at 2:44 PM, John Cox wrote:
Call me stubborn, but I did not accept the referenced test as valid
then or now. Will still lust after a long x-cntry with similar engined
RV-10s running a Hartzell 2 blade aluminum egg beater, a Hartzell 3
blade Composite, an MT and an Aerocomp on an extended trip. Time to
climb, LOP ops, Cruise fuel flow and comfort could all be factored with
teams switching ponies on various legs to validate parochial bias.
We have the technology, I will await a valid comparison. The query
comes up because Jim has not acknowledge the results of a test with his
MT and I know of no unbiased test yet with all four flavors.
Hard Headed in Aurora
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of pascal
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:57 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
This has come up before. Vic did a test next to the Van's plane
(attached) and I took away that the higher HP 3 blade still was slower
than the Van's 2 blade, Rob did a preliminary, if I recall, and it too
was slower than a 2 blade, Hartzell has told me outright that the 2
blade is faster than the composite three blade.
Three is more "sexy" but when it comes to performance at this point
the 2 blade is the best value for the dollar.
Pascal
From: John Cox
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:32 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Jim, you could do a big favor to the experimental market by lobbying
Gert to allow custom blade paint on the MTs. Nothing against White
Blades, Black Blades, Grey blades. but boy do the American Propeller
paint jobs get my juices flowing. Some RV-10s just look fast standing
on the ramp next to a G-IV.
I am sure Aerocomp blades would sell as many in stock "restricted"
bland paint colors but those finished blades are prettier in my eyes and
impact marketing= Sales. Enough so that money must be budgeted a
little tighter than I had planned originally.
And isn't it tragic that not one "Head to Head" has been done in all
this time. 190 finished, flying RV-10s, nearly 1,000 kits sold and Not
Hartzell, Nor MT nor Aerocomp will take the gauntlet. Rob, I understand
your timeline priorities on great new AFS products have distracted you,
but many are leaning into the prevailing winds to hear more on Field
Tests of the Hartzell ASC-II.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:08 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Just a point of clearification here. Michael's 3 blade MT propeller
was a new propeller available for comparison flight testing on a flying
RV-10 with a 2 blade hartzell. With no takers in over a year, I sold
the propeller to Michael.
I have new RV-10 3 blade MT propellers available for $9,890
delivered assembled to your closest international airport. 13" or 14"
spinner included.
Standard colors are Red, White, Grey, Black and Yellow for the
blades, blade tips and spinner.
Grey with White tips is recommended for IFR aircraft.
Black with Yellow tips was the old CAA required blade colors.
As a special offer, White blades with Red, White and Blue tips is
available.
A Hi-Glo spinner (looks like polished aluminum) is available for an
extra $450.
Sorry if this offens the SPAM sensitive. Just real prices.
Please contact me off line, or directly at the phone numbers below,
if you desire additional information.
Jim Ayers
jim@lessdrag.com
Less Drag products, Inc - Located in California (805) 795-5377
Custom Aircraft Propeller - Located in Florida (321) 441-3544
-----Original Message-----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:14 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14"
spinner, assembly, and shipping. You don't pay extra for a 14" spinner
with MT. I did get a bit of a price break because it was one that
someone had ordered and then backed out on but this was only a couple
months ago.
Michael
??~??,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
g??
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
black; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com
style="color: black; text-decoration: underline;
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
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Message 21
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How about these,... if you don't have several straight and curved hemostats,
you are missing a couple of great tools. About $4 at Dollar General. You
can also use them to hold small nuts and washers very effectively.
Bill S
7a finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 1:40 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Adel Pliers
--> <johngoodman@earthlink.net>
Has anybody tried out these Adel Clamp Pliers from Wicks? If so, are they
worth the money?
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=17313~subid=1212
3/index.html
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233494#233494
Message 22
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| Subject: | Flightline AC system for sale |
I have a complete 14 volt Flightline system for an RV10 I will no longer be installing
in my project. System is complete with overhead console for lighting and
vents, compressor, condensor, evaporator, two groove starter ring gear with
alt/compressor belts, all mounting hardware, all ductwork and hoses, fittings,
crimping tool for hoses. $5200 plus freight.
Dave Ford
RV6 flying
RV10 constructing
rvdave@centurytel.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233650#233650
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