Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:01 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (Don McDonald)
2. 04:36 AM - Re: New Hartzell AvailableNew Hartzell Available (Wayne Edgerton)
3. 05:40 AM - Re: New Hartzell Available (nukeflyboy)
4. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: New Hartzell Available (Don McDonald)
5. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: New Hartzell Available (lessdragprod@aol.com)
6. 10:56 AM - Re: rear window install (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
7. 10:57 AM - Re: Re: Adel Pliers (John Cox)
8. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: New Hartzell Available (John Cox)
9. 11:27 AM - Re: rear window install (John Cox)
10. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Vibration (was: New Hartzell Available) (lessdragprod@aol.com)
11. 03:34 PM - Re: RV10-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 03/07/09 (Leo Davies)
12. 10:24 PM - FS: RV-10 QB wing $12,500 (smokenjoe50)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
Although not flying yet.... here's what I can tell you all about the MT 3 b
lade..... For out first start we put a camcorder on a tripod and filmed the
entire sequence.=C2- One thing I noted... novice here... I was told to e
xpect quite a bit of rocking motion on start and shut down.... because the
camera was mounted on the tripod, it was really easy to study any movements
made by the plane or the engine during start, running and shut down.=C2-
To my surprise, there was almost NO movement at all during any of these 3
phases.=C2- I reviewed the recording multiple times, especially the shutd
own, and was amazed how smooth it was.=C2-=C2-=C2- Yesterday I watche
d an RV7 run up the engine in prep for his first flight the following day.
=C2- On shut down, I couldn't believe how violent the rocking motion was.
=C2- I know this is only a 4 cyl engine, but certainly there was a huge d
ifference.=C2- I simply purchased the 3 blade because I was pretty sure t
he overall vibration would
be=C2-curtailed quite a bit.... very smooth.
My 2 cents worth.
Don McDonald
=C2-
=C2-
Today I watched a first flight of an RV7
--- On Sat, 3/7/09, pascal <pascal@rv10builder.net> wrote:
From: pascal <pascal@rv10builder.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
This has come up before. Vic did a test next to the Van's plane (attached)
and I took away that the higher HP 3 blade still was slower than the Van's
2 blade, Rob did a preliminary, if I recall, and it too was slower than a 2
blade, Hartzell has told me outright that the 2 blade is faster than the c
omposite three blade.
Three is more "sexy" but when it comes to performance at this point the 2 b
lade is the best value for the dollar.
Pascal
From: John Cox
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Jim, you could do a big favor to the experimental market by lobbying Gert t
o allow custom blade paint on the MTs.=C2- Nothing against White Blades,
Black Blades, Grey blades but boy do the American Propeller paint
jobs get my juices flowing.=C2- Some RV-10s just look fast standing on th
e ramp next to a G-IV.
=C2-
I am sure Aerocomp blades would sell as many in stock "restricted" bland pa
int colors but those finished blades are prettier in my eyes and impact mar
keting= Sales.=C2- Enough so that money must be budgeted a little tight
er than I had planned originally.
=C2-
And isn't it tragic that not one "Head to Head" has been done in all this t
ime.=C2- 190 finished, flying RV-10s, nearly 1,000 kits sold and Not Hart
zell, Nor MT nor Aerocomp will take the gauntlet.=C2- Rob, I understand y
our timeline priorities on great new AFS products have distracted you, but
many are leaning into the prevailing winds to hear more on Field Tests of t
he Hartzell ASC-II.
=C2-
John
=C2-
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
=C2-
Just a point of clearification here.=C2- Michael's 3 blade MT propeller w
as a new propeller available for comparison=C2-flight testing on=C2-a f
lying RV-10 with a 2 blade hartzell.=C2- With no takers in over a year, I
sold the propeller to Michael.
I have new RV-10 3 blade MT propellers available for $9,890 delivered assem
bled to your closest international airport.=C2- 13" or 14" spinner includ
ed.
Standard colors are Red, White, Grey, Black and Yellow for the blades, blad
e tips and spinner.
Grey with White tips is recommended for IFR aircraft.
Black with Yellow tips was the old CAA required blade colors.
As a special offer, White blades with Red, White and Blue tips is available
.
A Hi-Glo spinner (looks like polished aluminum) is available for an extra $
450.
Sorry if this offens the SPAM sensitive.=C2- Just real prices.
Please contact me off line, or directly at the phone numbers below, if you
desire additional information.
Jim Ayers
jim@lessdrag.com
Less Drag products, Inc - Located in California (805) 795-5377
Custom Aircraft Propeller - Located in Florida (321) 441-3544
-----Original Message-----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:14 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
=C2- I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14=9D
spinner, assembly, and shipping.=C2- You don=99t pay extra for a 14
=9D spinner with MT.=C2- I did get a bit of a price break because i
t was one that someone had ordered and then backed out on but this was only
a couple months ago.
=C2-
Michael
=C2-=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,g=EF=BD=EF=BD =0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell AvailableNew Hartzell Available |
I thought I would chime in a little here on the 3 bladed prop issue.
Robin is correct that some 3 bladed props are very expensive and Michael
is correct on the MT. I had a price quote or the MT prop when I was
building in 2005, of $7700, I don't know what it is right now. However I
ended up buying the Aero Composite prop, which ended up costing me
something like $17,000, of which $1600 of that was for custom painting
by them.
And Robin is correct that removing the cowling with a 3 bladed prop can
be a challenge, or put in RV speak, a pain in the arsh, to not ding the
prop or the gear fairings. I had prop covers made so I could protect the
prop from dings and then I put tape all over the wheel fairings and
pants whenever I take the cowling off so I don't ding them.
I believe that Robin is also correct that the Hartzell may be a little
faster than some of the 3 bladed props. There was an unscientific
comparison done on this with an MT compared to a Hartzell and then an MT
compared to a Aero Composite. It was written up in Vans rag by, I think
either Van or Ken Kruger. The problem is and was that there are quite a
few variables involved, such as weight of each plane, engine HP etc.
What they found in that write up, who knows if it was correct, was that
the Hartzell was faster than the MT but not the Aero Composite.
I've flown together with a friend of mine, Ron Grover, several times on
trips and he has the Hartzell and I believe his is faster than mine by a
little. I'm not sure, because we didn't do a balls to the wall test, but
he could usually run at a little lower power setting than me and keep
the same speed as me. We have basically the same engine but my plane I
think is much heaver than his. When I built mine I wanted it build with
certain thing and I figured the weight is whatever it is. In the big
scope of things for me a couple of knots speed loss to have the plane
the way I want it really doesn't matter that much to me. Based on speeds
I've seen posted, I seem to be right in the same area. But as far as the
3 bladed issue, I really like the smoothness of mine. I've had a couple
of people that have flown in several 10's comment on how smooth and
quite mine is. Again just a personal preference thing I guess. I just
like the looks of the 3 bladed prop as well as climb rate and quietness
issues.
Wayne Edgerton N602WT
Time: 08:17:01 AM PST US
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Subject: New Hartzell Available
I have to disagree, my new 3 blade MT was under 9k with 14"
spinner, asse
mbly, and shipping. You don't pay extra for a 14" spinner with
MT. I did
get a bit of a price break because it was one that someone had
ordered and
then backed out on but this was only a couple months ago.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: New Hartzell Available
Just a point of clarification... The panel image I posted was of
Deems' lay
out as Vern thought Deems was using the Avidyne system. I wanted
to answer
for Deems as he is otherwise occupied. (I went with the
G900X/Dynon Back Up
)
As far as props go... $15,000 is in the ball park when compared
with the ot
her 3 blades out there. Throw in a custom paint scheme. Cough,
cough (Deems
) and my guess is that all 3 blades are running $15 ish.
Unfortunately with
all the equipment out there we still have no, zero, zilch, nada
side by si
de comparisons. So how is one to know what is the fastest or best
option? M
y choice was $6.5k, two blades and easy cowl removal. Heck most of
my frien
ds don't have an airplane so ego still intact. I have a feeling
that when a
ll is said & done the BA Hartzell may be the fastest of them all
in cruise.
Of note those thinking of the James cowl will need to buy a
$1,100+ 14" spi
nner.
My Barrett / Forsling / James Fire Breather "Chunky Monkey" is
almost dress
ed (painted)...
Robin
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
I am really surprised at the debate over whether a 2 or 3 blade is more efficient.
Unless there is some defect in the design a 2 blade will always win. In
fact if you could make a one blade prop it would beat the 2 blade, though keeping
vibration in check would be a problem. It's because each blade can't get
completely out of the way of the turbulence of the preceding blade. Composite
vs. Al blades seems to be neutral question. While many claim some magical efficiency
with composites I think experience has show that to be pure marketing.
Three blades win out on ground clearance and tend to run smoother. Then there
is the "look". I relate the debate to the tip up vs. slider canopy decision for
the RV-6/7. Go with whatever floats your boat.
Personally I'm sticking with the 2 blade. With the 3 blade composite at twice
the price and slower it is a no brainer for me.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - cabin top/fiberglass hell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233681#233681
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
One thing I forgot to mention.... I was playing John Kerry over this issue,
and what changed my mind was the comments from Greg Nelson.- He-retire
d a year ago from the Air Force, where he flew U2's, he now test flies them
for Lockeed down in Palmdale.- This being said to let everyone know that
he pretty much knows what he's talking about.- He flies a Rocket, with a
lmost exactly the same motor I have (both from Performance Engines).- He
changed from a Hartzell 2 blade to a 3 blade MT.- BTW he has competed in
several of the Reno races.- Although it's a different plane, it was the
-SAME plane with 2 of the props in question.- He observed a small decre
ase in top airspeed, something in the 2-4 knot range, with takeoff and clim
b very comparable.-
In my previous life I used to race.... stuff on the ground,,,, -and anyth
ing that could/would reduce vibration was a good thing.- If it's smoother
for the occupant, it's also smoother for the motor, the avionics, and the
entire rest of the airplane.
Ok, that's probably a total of-my 5 cents worth.
Don McDonald
#40636
Awaiting my ticket and the FAA ticket-
--- On Sun, 3/8/09, nukeflyboy <flymoore@charter.net> wrote:
From: nukeflyboy <flymoore@charter.net>
Subject: RV10-List: Re: New Hartzell Available
I am really surprised at the debate over whether a 2 or 3 blade is more eff
icient.- Unless there is some defect in the design a 2 blade will always
win.- In fact if you could make a one blade prop it would beat the 2 blad
e, though keeping vibration in check would be a problem.- It's because ea
ch blade can't get completely out of the way of the turbulence of the prece
ding blade.- Composite vs. Al blades seems to be neutral question.- Whi
le many claim some magical efficiency with composites I think experience ha
s show that to be pure marketing.
Three blades win out on ground clearance and tend to run smoother.- Then
there is the "look".- I relate the debate to the tip up vs. slider canopy
decision for the RV-6/7.- Go with whatever floats your boat.
Personally I'm sticking with the 2 blade.- With the 3 blade composite at
twice the price and slower it is a no brainer for me.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - cabin top/fiberglass hell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233681#233681
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
I recently learned a little more about vibration.? There is a 1/2 P vibration which
is 1/2 of the engine RPM.? This is a vibration that can not be removed by
balancing.? Neither static nor dynamic balancing affect the 1/2 P vibration.?
It is a characteristic of the engine and propeller and probably other factors.
At 2400 RPM, the direct frequency (1 P) is 40 hz.? (2400RPM/60seconds per minute=40Hz)
The 1/2 P would be 20 Hz.
How would you determine the 1/2 P vibration in your aircraft?? The next time you're
flying along, rest your head against the airframe.
What is the significancy of the 1/2 P vibration?? It is the environment that your
instrument panel is expected to exist in.
In dynamic balancing the engine and propeller, the higher frequencies are balanced
out to less than 0.04 IPS.
The only numbers I have for 1/2 P are from cessna 182 STC flight test data.
With a Hartzell propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 1.2 IPS.
With a McCullogh propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 0.8 IPS.
With the STC?MT Propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 0.2 IPS.
It would be interesting if someone could ride in various RV-10's, and get a "feel"
:-) for this with both 2 blade and 3 blade propellers.? Preferably in two,
or more, with each propeller.
Jim Ayers
HR2 -?configured for 15,000' to 17,500' cruise altitude.? 4 blade MT Propeller.
Lycoming peak torque occurs at 2200 RPM.
-----Original Message-----
From: Don McDonald <building_partner@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 10:01 am
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: New Hartzell Available
One thing I forgot to mention.... I was playing John Kerry over this issue, and
what changed my mind was the comments from Greg Nelson.? He?retired a year ago
from the Air Force, where he flew U2's, he now test flies them for Lockeed down
in Palmdale.? This being said to let everyone know that he pretty much knows
what he's talking about.? He flies a Rocket, with almost exactly the same motor
I have (both from Performance Engines).? He changed from a Hartzell 2 blade
to a 3 blade MT.? BTW he has competed in several of the Reno races.? Although
it's a different plane, it was the?SAME plane with 2 of the props in question.?
He observed a small decrease in top airspeed, something in the 2-4 knot range,
with takeoff and climb very comparable.?
In my previous life I used to race.... stuff on the ground,,,, ?and anything that
could/would reduce vibration was a good thing.? If it's smoother for the occupant,
it's also smoother for the motor, the avionics, and the entire rest of
the airplane.
Ok, that's probably a total of?my 5 cents worth.
Don McDonald
#40636
Awaiting my ticket and the FAA ticket?
--- On Sun, 3/8/09, nukeflyboy <flymoore@charter.net> wrote:
From: nukeflyboy <flymoore@charter.net>
Subject: RV10-List: Re: New Hartzell Available
I am really surprised at the debate over whether a 2 or 3 blade is more efficient.?
Unless there is some defect in the design a 2 blade will always win.? In
fact if you could make a one blade prop it would beat the 2 blade, though keeping
vibration in check would be a problem.? It's because each blade can't get
completely out of the way of the turbulence of the preceding blade.? Composite
vs. Al blades seems to be neutral question.? While many claim some magical efficiency
with composites I think experience has show that to be pure marketing.
Three blades win out on ground clearance and tend to run smoother.? Then there
is the "look".? I relate the debate to the tip up vs. slider canopy decision for
the RV-6/7.? Go with whatever floats your boat.
Personally I'm sticking with the 2 blade.? With the 3 blade composite at twice
the price and slower it is a no brainer for me.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - cabin top/fiberglass hell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233681#233681
--> httphttp://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | rear window install |
Bob,
I put my rear windows in with the top on the aircraft but only temporaril
y affixed. Once they had cured for a week or so I took the top back off to
do some of the fit and finish work. So far no problems noticed but I'll k
now in a couple weeks when I put the top back on for good.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob-tcw
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: rear window install
I've been working on our canopy and overhead console and now have it ready
for final installation on the fuselage. Looking ahead, the plans call for
installing the rear windows after the canopy is permanently installed.
Has anyone done the rear window install with the canopy off the fuselage?
The benefits seem to be :
1) a lot more clamping capability
2) the canopy can be turned so gravity is your friend with respect to deali
ng with the Weld-on.
Thoughts and comments would be appreciated,
Bob Newman
40176
Message 7
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I will capture several pictures from work tonight and edit them down for
the bandwidth impaired. An Awl (from Harbor Freight), A discarded
locking medical forceps or two (they sell new ones at Harbor Freight), a
broken hacksaw blade 3" long(I have a few). The Pencil Die Grinder was
already talked about to fab the blade mod. The finished product will do
6-32, 8-32 or 10-32s in a second. For the more technical types that
would be MS21919 clamp installations.
Double or Quad stacked Adel's that are filled to capacity are lots of
fun (Like tying your shoes with gloves on). For the $86 bucks that will
buy a lot of Tall Neck Lone Stars, Coors, Sam Adams, Becks or Big Gulps.
We ran into a problem working inverted inside fuel cells and under floor
boards (blind) with just the forceps. An ole timer got out his "Poor
Boy" tool. Pictures will answer the 1,000 words that no one wants from
me.
That said, some of us are still suckers for more tools. Will answer
questions to the pictures "Offline".
John - #40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
Williams, M.D.
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Adel Pliers
<drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
dmaib@mac.com wrote:
>
> John, I would love to know more about the hacksaw blade/pencil grinder
adel clamp tool. Sounds intriguing!
>
> --------
> David Maib
> RV-10 #40559
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233544#233544
>
>
>
My guess is a slot cut in a short piece to lock the two halves together.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Dr Fred.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: New Hartzell Available |
Engine mounts, Plexiglas windows, welds in 4130 aircraft steps, stress
risers within aluminum sheet stock and driven rivets all talk back from
vibration over time. Some talk louder than others. "Metal has Memory".
Dynamic balancing is appreciated by those who go there. Reducing
vibration is a Good Thing. We could go into a whole dissertation on
"Smoking Rivet", their cause, there appearance and the cost of
remediation once found. Older pilots tend to lose hearing and get
lulled into a nap state on the subject and as a result of the harmonic.
Young pilots tend to turn up the IPod to override the background
chatter. Rich pilots settle for the 3 blade composite Hartzell and go
along for the ride behind the younger 2 blade set.
What HP range is needed to effectively drive a 4 blade MT?
I have ridden in several and found all variants to be worthy of the
pleasure. Thanks' guys. Will wait for Deems (AeroComp) offer with
avgas money in hand.
John Cox
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: New Hartzell Available
I recently learned a little more about vibration. There is a 1/2 P
vibration which is 1/2 of the engine RPM. This is a vibration that can
not be removed by balancing. Neither static nor dynamic balancing
affect the 1/2 P vibration. It is a characteristic of the engine and
propeller and probably other factors.
At 2400 RPM, the direct frequency (1 P) is 40 hz. (2400RPM/60seconds
per minute=40Hz)
The 1/2 P would be 20 Hz.
How would you determine the 1/2 P vibration in your aircraft? The next
time you're flying along, rest your head against the airframe.
What is the significancy of the 1/2 P vibration? It is the environment
that your instrument panel is expected to exist in.
In dynamic balancing the engine and propeller, the higher frequencies
are balanced out to less than 0.04 IPS.
The only numbers I have for 1/2 P are from cessna 182 STC flight test
data.
With a Hartzell propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 1.2 IPS.
With a McCullogh propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 0.8 IPS.
With the STC MT Propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 0.2 IPS.
It would be interesting if someone could ride in various RV-10's, and
get a "feel" :-) for this with both 2 blade and 3 blade propellers.
Preferably in two, or more, with each propeller.
Jim Ayers
HR2 - configured for 15,000' to 17,500' cruise altitude. 4 blade MT
Propeller.
Lycoming peak torque occurs at 2200 RPM.
Message 9
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| Subject: | rear window install |
Cabosil can be added to change the consistency from honey/syrup to PCA
tainted Peanut Butter when applying in an overhead adhesive seam or
vertical configuration. Paul Grimstad #40450, is developing an airframe
rotisserie to let the natural gravity of old age work to our advantage.
Composite work, overhead liners and avionics are all made easier working
with /instead of against, Mother Nature.
John
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rear window install
Bob,
I put my rear windows in with the top on the aircraft but only
temporarily affixed. Once they had cured for a week or so I took the
top back off to do some of the fit and finish work. So far no problems
noticed but I'll know in a couple weeks when I put the top back on for
good.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob-tcw
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: rear window install
I've been working on our canopy and overhead console and now have it
ready for final installation on the fuselage. Looking ahead, the plans
call for installing the rear windows after the canopy is permanently
installed. Has anyone done the rear window install with the canopy
off the fuselage?
The benefits seem to be :
1) a lot more clamping capability
2) the canopy can be turned so gravity is your friend with respect to
dealing with the Weld-on.
Thoughts and comments would be appreciated,
Bob Newman
40176
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Vibration (was: New Hartzell Available) |
What HP range is needed to effectively drive a 4 blade MT?? That's only half of
the question.? Altitude is the other half.
15,000' and 260 sea level Hp should be the cross over point.? (That is, were the
MT Rocket?4 blade propeller becomes more efficient than the MT Rocket?3 blade
propeller.)
A F-1 Rocket flew my 4 blade propeller while his 3 blade propeller was being overhauled
from a propeller strike.
He only had flight test data at 4,000'.? My 4 blade propeller was 2 knots slower
than his 3 blade propeller.
However, at his normal cruise altitude of 9,500' and 10.500', he felt the 4 blade
was faster than his 3 blade.? Unfortunately, he didn't take?any flight test
data for a?comparison.? Just some cross country flights that took less time and
less fuel.
Apparently, the cross over altitude for the MT Rocket?4 blade propeller is below
9,500'.
BTW, the customers 3 blade MT Rocket?propeller lost 3 inches off of the end of
each blade, and was rebuilt back?to the original length by MT Propellers certified
overhaul?process.? 15% of the blade length can be damaged and the propeller
blades can still be overhauled back to their original length.??After a ground
strike, the propeller hub is inspected before it is?returned to service.? I
normally make this an overhaul, rather than just an inspection,?to start the
72 month calendar clock again.
I have done this three times in 2008, so it happens.
John Harmon has flown a 2 blade, 3 blade and 4 blade propeller on his HR3,? The
4 blade was the smoothest.
My decision to use the 4 blade on my HR2 was based on two factors.
My normal cruise altitude.
The "quality of flight".
The original O-290-G engine in my RV-3 had a vibration problem I never could eliminate.?
After 165 hours, the second bearing?failed from lack of oil.? None of
the crankshaft main bearings oil hole?line up with the oil hole in the case.?
The rear two were a quarter hole off, the front bearing was a half hole off,
and the second bearing had melted aluminum coming through the bearing oil hole.
With a new crankcase and balanced internal assemblies, the engine ran so smooth
the aircraft seemed to be sliding through the air.? A real significant change
in the "quality of flight".
Jim Ayers
Lycoming has the peak torque at 2200 RPM.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 11:21 am
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: New Hartzell Available
Engine mounts, Plexiglas windows, welds in 4130 aircraft steps, stress risers within
aluminum sheet stock and driven rivets all talk back from vibration over
time.? Some talk louder than others.? "Metal has Memory".? Dynamic balancing
is appreciated by those who go there.? Reducing vibration is a Good Thing.? We
could go into a whole dissertation on "Smoking Rivet", their cause, there appearance
and the cost of remediation once found.? Older pilots tend to lose hearing
and get lulled into a nap state on the subject and as a result of the harmonic.?
Young pilots tend to turn up the IPod to override the background chatter.?
Rich pilots settle for the 3 blade composite Hartzell and go along for the
ride behind the younger 2 blade set.
?
What HP range is needed to effectively drive a 4 blade MT?
?
I have ridden in several and found all variants to be worthy of the pleasure.?
Thanks' guys.? Will wait for Deems (AeroComp) offer with avgas money in hand.
?
John Cox
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: New Hartzell Available
?
I recently learned a little more about vibration.? There is a 1/2 P vibration which
is 1/2 of the engine RPM.? This is a vibration that can not be removed by
balancing.? Neither static nor dynamic balancing affect the 1/2 P vibration.?
It is a characteristic of the engine and propeller and probably other factors.
At 2400 RPM, the direct frequency (1 P) is 40 hz.? (2400RPM/60seconds per minute=40Hz)
The 1/2 P would be 20 Hz.
How would you determine the 1/2 P vibration in your aircraft?? The next time you're
flying along, rest your head against the airframe.
What is the significancy of the 1/2 P vibration?? It is the environment that your
instrument panel is expected to exist in.
In dynamic balancing the engine and propeller, the higher frequencies are balanced
out to less than 0.04 IPS.
The only numbers I have for 1/2 P are from cessna 182 STC flight test data.
With a Hartzell propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 1.2 IPS.
With a McCullogh propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 0.8 IPS.
With the STC?MT Propeller, the 1/2 P vibration level was 0.2 IPS.
It would be interesting if someone could ride in various RV-10's, and get a "feel"
:-) for this with both 2 blade and 3 blade propellers.? Preferably in two,
or more, with each propeller.
Jim Ayers
HR2 -?configured for 15,000' to 17,500' cruise altitude.? 4 blade MT Propeller.
Lycoming peak torque occurs at 2200 RPM.
?
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| Subject: | Re: RV10-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 03/07/09 |
Re: Fitting rear windows with the cabin roof off the plane.
I would counsel against this.
The cabin roof is quite "floppy" off the plane. If you bond the windows in
this situation the cabin roof will invariably have a slightly different
configuration to its installed position. When you install it you will be
preloading the bonded plexiglass which is generally a bad idea.
The rear windows can be clamped in place with the cabin roof mounted by
running straps around the plane and using spacers (lengths of 2 X 4 or
similar) to apply pressure where needed.
Regards,
Leo Davies
RV6A flying
RV10 gestating
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| Subject: | FS: RV-10 QB wing $12,500 |
I am in the process of building an RV 10 but came across a really good deal on
a Mooney. What I have for sale is a SB wing completed to the stage of a QB. Every
thing was primed with P60G2 just like a QB from vans. Also included is the
fuel senders and electric aileron trim option. This is not an old kit that has
been sitting in the garage. I started this project 10/08. The price new for
a QB wing from Van's with these options and crating is $15.5K. You can email me
at smokenjoe50@gmail.com for more info.
Asking $12,500.00
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233830#233830
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