Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:31 AM - Re: Where do I start? (AirMike)
2. 02:45 AM - Throttle Cable length - short (AirMike)
3. 05:05 AM - Re: Throttle Cable length - short (jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com)
4. 05:30 AM - Re: Re: Throttle Cable length - short (David McNeill)
5. 06:27 AM - Re: Where do I start? ()
6. 06:27 AM - Re: Where do I start? ()
7. 06:27 AM - Re: Where do I start? ()
8. 07:26 AM - Re: Throttle Cable length - short (Vernon Smith)
9. 09:14 AM - Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Michael Kraus)
10. 09:24 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
11. 10:33 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Tim Olson)
12. 10:47 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Robin Marks)
13. 11:04 AM - Hardware heads up (David McNeill)
14. 11:20 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Jesse Saint)
15. 11:44 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Rob Kochman)
16. 12:23 PM - Good News (Paul Grimstad)
17. 01:06 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Jesse Saint)
18. 01:09 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
19. 02:55 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Bob Leffler)
20. 04:24 PM - Re: Hardware heads up (Carl Froehlich)
21. 04:33 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Bob and Karen Brown)
22. 04:50 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Carl Froehlich)
23. 05:24 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (lbgjb10)
24. 05:24 PM - Sun N Fun '09 (John Cox)
25. 06:43 PM - Re: Where do I start? (richard sipp)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Where do I start? |
All of Bob's comments are good. Especially the ones about the wire runs in the
baggage area. This is a real bug-a-bo if neglected now. (I hope that the wings
are open or that the wire runs are in there also!
I hate to see you drilling out all those rivets, but it may not be avoidable.
One of the weaknesses of the kit in my humble opinion is the buttoned up baggage
floors. I would nut plate the whole area like Cessna does if I were starting
over again. I compromised and put a small nut-plated hatch in over the bolt for
the steps. This gives you visibility for an inspection. Another solution would
be to order new back floors and cut out only the outboard areas on both sides.
You could nut plate as needed and lay in your conduit and wires. Just overlap
the floor panels.
I ordered Van's wire kit at the point you are at. I did not use all of it, but
it saved me a lot of effort and helped in the planning process. Good luck
--------
OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09
Q/B Kit - wiring and FWF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238450#238450
Message 2
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| Subject: | Throttle Cable length - short |
Using a standard Van's panel mounted throttle (no quadrant), it fits very tight
in the engine compartment. I can install it and get the threads inserted properly,
but it will definitely rub and chafe on the bottom of the engine case. Anyone
else had this same issue. It could definitely use an extra 3/4 of an inch
in length. The prop & mixture were fine
--------
OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09
Q/B Kit - FWF end game
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238451#238451
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Cable length - short |
We had the same problem, we ordered the cable called for on the RV-7, and
it worked perfect.
I think by trying to use the shorter cable it forces the throttle arm to a
more horizontal position while at idle. This make the throttle more
difficult to advance at low power settings, almost like you need to push
on the throttle hard enough to get the arm to go over center. Ideally the
angle between the cable and the throttle arm while the throttle cable is
advanced half way is 90 degrees. Making the angle of the cable to the
throttle arm at idle approximately 135 degrees, and at wide open throttle
approximately 45 degrees. I think the standard cable forces the angle
while at idle to be something like 160 degrees, which is the cause of the
'over center' feeling. I am not suggesting that it will ever approach an
over center condition, just that it fells like it is approaching an over
center condition. The aircraft we took transition training in had a
throttle that was harder to advance for the first one third of travel. Not
a big deal, just the sort of perfection we all strive for.
BTW, Vans indicated "They have never had this come up before on the
RV-10". I posted this question to the list a while back, and found one or
two others with the same problem. Anyone need a standard length RV-10
throttle cable?
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
It runs, weight and balance complete, transition training done, doing
minor finishing and calibrations, waiting on paperwork.
#40617 N44YH
Sheboygan Falls, WI
(4) Partner Build
Jason Kreidler
Kyle Hokel
Tony Kolar
Wayne Elsner
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Cable length - short |
I installed the quadrant and found the mixture and throttle cables tight,
They easily could have used another inch. I did cut a section of flexible
tubing/high temp spiral wrap over the cables where they might have chaffed.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 5:01 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Throttle Cable length - short
We had the same problem, we ordered the cable called for on the RV-7, and it
worked perfect.
I think by trying to use the shorter cable it forces the throttle arm to a
more horizontal position while at idle. This make the throttle more
difficult to advance at low power settings, almost like you need to push on
the throttle hard enough to get the arm to go over center. Ideally the
angle between the cable and the throttle arm while the throttle cable is
advanced half way is 90 degrees. Making the angle of the cable to the
throttle arm at idle approximately 135 degrees, and at wide open throttle
approximately 45 degrees. I think the standard cable forces the angle while
at idle to be something like 160 degrees, which is the cause of the 'over
center' feeling. I am not suggesting that it will ever approach an over
center condition, just that it fells like it is approaching an over center
condition. The aircraft we took transition training in had a throttle that
was harder to advance for the first one third of travel. Not a big deal,
just the sort of perfection we all strive for.
BTW, Vans indicated "They have never had this come up before on the RV-10".
I posted this question to the list a while back, and found one or two others
with the same problem. Anyone need a standard length RV-10 throttle cable?
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
It runs, weight and balance complete, transition training done, doing minor
finishing and calibrations, waiting on paperwork.
#40617 N44YH
Sheboygan Falls, WI
(4) Partner Build
Jason Kreidler
Kyle Hokel
Tony Kolar
Wayne Elsner
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Where do I start? |
I would think that you want to remove the baggage floor immediately (along with
most of the screw on panels) and set them aside for awhile. The baggage floor
panels are just 'tack' riveted in place anyway.
Not to be confused with the passenger compartment floors. You have a decision
to make with those as to whether you want to remove and inspect or trust the QB
builder and simply finish the riveting at some point later. It's a significant
bit of work to remove these panels due to the landing gear support and the
tight fit. I left them in.
With baggage floor out, you have to build up the tailcone (assuming you have riveting
skills, very straight forward). Then attach it all together. Others have
made the point about getting wiring and controls in place as early as possible.
I think getting the tail attached is first, then start your wiring and
controls. As late as possible after the wiring and controls, put your step on
and close up the baggage floor. You'll know it's the right time when you just
can't think of anything else to go in there.
Have fun!
Bill "missing his shop while attending some family stuff" Watson
---- rvdave <davidbf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> I purchased a QB 10 from a prior builder, the empenage is complete to the tips
along with the wings being complete with control linkages. The fuselage is
untouched. I've been going through the plans and I'm indecisive about where to
start on the fuselage because I don't want to get ahead of myself with doing
too much to the floor area. I believe I have to eventually drill the pop rivets
out of the floor area before attaching the steps but would like to get some
feedback from experienced builders who have been to this stage and have some
wisdom about which path to take first...thanks for your help. I don't yet have
the finish kit. I'm stuck and need a little push.
>
> 1. Should I first remove pop rivets from floor area and completely loosen to
have access to all areas?
>
> 2. Start building control linkages working my way aft?
>
> 3. Do as much as I can before attaching tailcone to fuselage?
>
> 4. Since steps came with fuselage kit should I attach those first then close
floor area?
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 flying
> RV10 building
> Lake City, MI
> based at CAD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238437#238437
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Where do I start? |
I would think that you want to remove the baggage floor immediately (along with
most of the screw on panels) and set them aside for awhile. The baggage floor
panels are just 'tack' riveted in place anyway.
Not to be confused with the passenger compartment floors. You have a decision
to make with those as to whether you want to remove and inspect or trust the QB
builder and simply finish the riveting at some point later. It's a significant
bit of work to remove these panels due to the landing gear support and the
tight fit. I left them in.
With baggage floor out, you have to build up the tailcone (assuming you have riveting
skills, very straight forward). Then attach it all together. Others have
made the point about getting wiring and controls in place as early as possible.
I think getting the tail attached is first, then start your wiring and
controls. As late as possible after the wiring and controls, put your step on
and close up the baggage floor. You'll know it's the right time when you just
can't think of anything else to go in there.
Have fun!
Bill "missing his shop while attending some family stuff" Watson
---- rvdave <davidbf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> I purchased a QB 10 from a prior builder, the empenage is complete to the tips
along with the wings being complete with control linkages. The fuselage is
untouched. I've been going through the plans and I'm indecisive about where to
start on the fuselage because I don't want to get ahead of myself with doing
too much to the floor area. I believe I have to eventually drill the pop rivets
out of the floor area before attaching the steps but would like to get some
feedback from experienced builders who have been to this stage and have some
wisdom about which path to take first...thanks for your help. I don't yet have
the finish kit. I'm stuck and need a little push.
>
> 1. Should I first remove pop rivets from floor area and completely loosen to
have access to all areas?
>
> 2. Start building control linkages working my way aft?
>
> 3. Do as much as I can before attaching tailcone to fuselage?
>
> 4. Since steps came with fuselage kit should I attach those first then close
floor area?
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 flying
> RV10 building
> Lake City, MI
> based at CAD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238437#238437
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Where do I start? |
I would think that you want to remove the baggage floor immediately (along with
most of the screw on panels) and set them aside for awhile. The baggage floor
panels are just 'tack' riveted in place anyway.
Not to be confused with the passenger compartment floors. You have a decision
to make with those as to whether you want to remove and inspect or trust the QB
builder and simply finish the riveting at some point later. It's a significant
bit of work to remove these panels due to the landing gear support and the
tight fit. I left them in.
With baggage floor out, you have to build up the tailcone (assuming you have riveting
skills, very straight forward). Then attach it all together. Others have
made the point about getting wiring and controls in place as early as possible.
I think getting the tail attached is first, then start your wiring and
controls. As late as possible after the wiring and controls, put your step on
and close up the baggage floor. You'll know it's the right time when you just
can't think of anything else to go in there.
Have fun!
Bill "missing his shop while attending some family stuff" Watson
---- rvdave <davidbf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> I purchased a QB 10 from a prior builder, the empenage is complete to the tips
along with the wings being complete with control linkages. The fuselage is
untouched. I've been going through the plans and I'm indecisive about where to
start on the fuselage because I don't want to get ahead of myself with doing
too much to the floor area. I believe I have to eventually drill the pop rivets
out of the floor area before attaching the steps but would like to get some
feedback from experienced builders who have been to this stage and have some
wisdom about which path to take first...thanks for your help. I don't yet have
the finish kit. I'm stuck and need a little push.
>
> 1. Should I first remove pop rivets from floor area and completely loosen to
have access to all areas?
>
> 2. Start building control linkages working my way aft?
>
> 3. Do as much as I can before attaching tailcone to fuselage?
>
> 4. Since steps came with fuselage kit should I attach those first then close
floor area?
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 flying
> RV10 building
> Lake City, MI
> based at CAD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238437#238437
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Throttle Cable length - short |
Hi Mike=2C
I had the same problem. Ended up reclocking the throttle arm (for best trav
el/leverage) and installing a cushion clamp=2C to hold the cable=2C in a s
pare threaded mounting hole in the bottom rear of the oil sump (these are c
oarse threads.)
The hard one for me has been the mixture control.
Vern Smith (finishing #324)
> Subject: RV10-List: Throttle Cable length - short
> From: Mikeabel@Pacbell.net
> Date: Thu=2C 9 Apr 2009 02:43:39 -0700
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Using a standard Van's panel mounted throttle (no quadrant)=2C it fits ve
ry tight in the engine compartment. I can install it and get the threads in
serted properly=2C but it will definitely rub and chafe on the bottom of th
e engine case. Anyone else had this same issue. It could definitely use an
extra 3/4 of an inch in length. The prop & mixture were fine
>
> --------
> OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "=3B09
> Q/B Kit - FWF end game
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238451#238451
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_
Mobile1_042009
Message 9
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| Subject: | Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like
the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the
firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10
seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but
I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks
of them).
So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both
(repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to
remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock
set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I
already bought them...
Thanks
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 Flying
RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
Sent from my iPhone
Message 10
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| Subject: | Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
Mike,
I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while.
Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
<n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like
the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the
firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10
seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but
I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks
of them).
So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both
(repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to
remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock
set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I
already bought them...
Thanks
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 Flying
RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
Sent from my iPhone
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be
working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off
or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down.
And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets
definitely will break if you just use hinge there.
On the top though it is a nice clean look.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
> would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
> screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
>
> Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
> weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while.
> Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
>
> Bob
> N442PM (flying)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
>
> <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
>
> I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like
> the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the
> firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10
> seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but
> I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks
> of them).
>
> So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both
> (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to
> remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock
> set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I
> already bought them...
>
> Thanks
> -Mike Kraus
> RV-4 Flying
> RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
Here is a glimpse of how the SkyBolts look on a -10 (SJ) cowl. Pins
definitely look cleaner. SB's are more industrial looking. Since we are
not discussing costs I won't mention that my 6A uses $0.05 S/S screws
that work as well as SkyBolts.
Robin
Message 13
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| Subject: | Hardware heads up |
Just completing the first annual inspection and glad I used some Ace or
McMaster Carr or Aircraft Spruce aviation hardware. I have enclosed a
picture to illustrate the four substitutions.
The aluminum fairing under the horizontal stabilizer. The plans call for
counter sinking a #6 screw into the longeron. Then the longeron is tapped..
by the time the CS is complete there are few threads in the longeron for the
fastener to grip. we decided to use stainless button heads with an internal
hex head. Without the countersink there are more threads to grip.
Where practical internally we used NAS hardware that had a hex external head
with a Phillips internal pattern. there are two ways to remove the screw
before resorting to drilling and Easy Out tool.
On the tunnel the three forward screws on each side are CS stainless with an
internal hex head rather than the Phillips head. When you are flat on your
back trying to remove/insert the forward screws it is much easier to use an
Allen wrench than applying pressure to a Phillips head to prevent slipping
of the screw driver point.
On the panel we used stainless cap screws where the cap and internal hex
head allow two means of removal..
As you can probably tell I have done a few annuals and had to remove screws
in inspection plates where the previous mechanic used a Makita with max
torque setting
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock
format. I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of
the lower cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as
good or better.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation
jesse@saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
> Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be
> working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off
> or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down.
> And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets
> definitely will break if you just use hinge there.
> On the top though it is a nice clean look.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>
>
> Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>> >
>> Mike,
>> I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
>> would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
>> screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
>> Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
>> weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a
>> while.
>> Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
>> Bob
>> N442PM (flying)
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Kraus
>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
>> <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
>> I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't
>> like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment
>> to the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on
>> the -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing
>> the pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I
>> don't like the looks of them).
>> So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done
>> both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins
>> to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the
>> cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts
>> because I already bought them...
>> Thanks
>> -Mike Kraus
>> RV-4 Flying
>> RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
>> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges
for the bottom of the lower cowl?
thanks...
-Rob
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>wrote:
>
> I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I
> like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl
> instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> 352-427-0285
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be
>> working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off
>> or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down.
>> And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets
>> definitely will break if you just use hinge there.
>> On the top though it is a nice clean look.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>>
>>
>>
>> Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>>
>>> bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>>> Mike,
>>> I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
>>> would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
>>> screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
>>> Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
>>> weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while.
>>> Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
>>> Bob
>>> N442PM (flying)
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
>>> <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
>>> I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like
>>> the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the
>>> firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems
>>> much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the
>>> ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them).
>>> So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both
>>> (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove
>>> and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is
>>> better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought
>>> them...
>>> Thanks
>>> -Mike Kraus
>>> RV-4 Flying
>>> RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 16
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Rick & Kelly,
I'm sure you are pleased to hear this news. The fight goes on for
general aviation, especially experimentals but we may have won a small
victory on this one.
A Nevada resolution that would have asked Congress to award
precedent-setting authority to a local aviation agency to preempt the
FAA and ban any general aviation flight activity deemed "high risk" at
North Las Vegas Airport has been reworked. Thanks to the collaborative
efforts of the Clark County Aviation Association, key state legislators,
and AOPA, the Nevada Senate's Energy, Infrastructure, and Transportation
Committee instead unanimously passed a resolution on April 8 to support
a stakeholders group of FAA officials, AOPA staff, local pilots, and the
Clark County Department of Aviation to develop meaningful solutions to
improve safety at the airport.
Paul Grimstad
RV10 450
Portland, Or.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
The hinge eyelets have a record of breaking. This is just the ones on
the short pin underneath the bottom cowl.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Apr 9, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
> Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the
> hinges for the bottom of the lower cowl?
>
> thanks...
>
> -Rob
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint
> <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
>
> I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock
> format. I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part
> of the lower cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is
> just as good or better.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> 352-427-0285
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>
> Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be
> working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off
> or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down.
> And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets
> definitely will break if you just use hinge there.
> On the top though it is a nice clean look.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>
>
> Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> >
> Mike,
> I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
> would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
> screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
> Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
> weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a
> while.
> Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
> Bob
> N442PM (flying)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
> Kraus
> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
> <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
> I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't
> like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to
> the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the
> -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the
> pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't
> like the looks of them).
> So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done
> both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins
> to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the
> cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts
> because I already bought them...
> Thanks
> -Mike Kraus
> RV-4 Flying
> RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
> Sent um -
> :
> 0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-
> List< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> = --> h
> a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Wings
> Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
The hinge eyelets on the bottom of the lower cowl will break over time
because of vibration. Many people have put the hinge segments on and
then after they break switched over to screws. I decided to just
install the screw setup from the beginning. Tim probably has pix on his
site.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the
hinges for the bottom of the lower cowl?
thanks...
-Rob
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
wrote:
I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format.
I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower
cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or
better.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation
jesse@saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be
working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off
or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down.
And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets
definitely will break if you just use hinge there.
On the top though it is a nice clean look.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Mike,
I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while.
Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
<n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like
the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the
firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems
much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like
the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them).
So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both
(repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove
and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up
is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already
bought them...
Thanks
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 Flying
RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
Sent um -
:
0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ->= --> h
a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 19
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| Subject: | Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
I know they're expensive, but has anyone tried carbinges yet?
(www.carbinge.com) I wonder if they'll break if placed on the bottom too?
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US
SSA)
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
The hinge eyelets on the bottom of the lower cowl will break over time
because of vibration. Many people have put the hinge segments on and then
after they break switched over to screws. I decided to just install the
screw setup from the beginning. Tim probably has pix on his site.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges
for the bottom of the lower cowl?
thanks...
-Rob
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
wrote:
I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I
like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl
instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation
jesse@saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be
working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off
or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down.
And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets
definitely will break if you just use hinge there.
On the top though it is a nice clean look.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Mike,
I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while.
Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
<n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the
set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so
I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I
like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the
SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them).
So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both
(repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and
install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is
better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought
them...
Thanks
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 Flying
RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
Sent um -
:
0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ->= --> h <http://forums.matronics.com/>
a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Hardware heads up |
I didn't like the stock set up of threading holes in the longeron for screws
(aluminum threads, steel screw). I put nutplates in each of these locations
- keeping the countersunk screw with a tinnerman on the fiberglass.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (450 hrs)
RV-10 (fuselage)
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Hardware heads up
Just completing the first annual inspection and glad I used some Ace or
McMaster Carr or Aircraft Spruce aviation hardware. I have enclosed a
picture to illustrate the four substitutions.
The aluminum fairing under the horizontal stabilizer. The plans call for
counter sinking a #6 screw into the longeron. Then the longeron is tapped..
by the time the CS is complete there are few threads in the longeron for the
fastener to grip. we decided to use stainless button heads with an internal
hex head. Without the countersink there are more threads to grip.
Where practical internally we used NAS hardware that had a hex external head
with a Phillips internal pattern. there are two ways to remove the screw
before resorting to drilling and Easy Out tool.
On the tunnel the three forward screws on each side are CS stainless with an
internal hex head rather than the Phillips head. When you are flat on your
back trying to remove/insert the forward screws it is much easier to use an
Allen wrench than applying pressure to a Phillips head to prevent slipping
of the screw driver point.
On the panel we used stainless cap screws where the cap and internal hex
head allow two means of removal..
As you can probably tell I have done a few annuals and had to remove screws
in inspection plates where the previous mechanic used a Makita with max
torque setting
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
I didn't think you were supposed to use carbon or graphite in contact with
aluminum? Aren't these carbon fiber hinges?
Back to the original question, I used skybolt "camlocs" all the way around
on my 7A. Lots of work to mount them.lots more weight, lots of time. On
the 10, I think I'll use hinges for everything but the bottom.It takes me
about 15 seconds to undo the bottom camlocks on my 7A.no big deal to undo 6
camlocks.
Bob
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
I know they're expensive, but has anyone tried carbinges yet?
(www.carbinge.com) I wonder if they'll break if placed on the bottom too?
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US
SSA)
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
The hinge eyelets on the bottom of the lower cowl will break over time
because of vibration. Many people have put the hinge segments on and then
after they break switched over to screws. I decided to just install the
screw setup from the beginning. Tim probably has pix on his site.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges
for the bottom of the lower cowl?
thanks...
-Rob
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
wrote:
I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I
like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl
instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation
jesse@saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be
working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off
or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down.
And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets
definitely will break if you just use hinge there.
On the top though it is a nice clean look.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Mike,
I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while.
Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
<n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the
set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so
I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I
like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the
SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them).
So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both
(repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and
install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is
better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought
them...
Thanks
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 Flying
RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
Sent um -
:
0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ->= --> h <http://forums.matronics.com/>
a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
I used hinges on my 8A all the way around, no problems. I'll do the same on
the 10.
I will also have the side hinge pins installed/removed from the cockpit.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (450 hrs)
RV-10 (fuselage)
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob and Karen
Brown
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
I didn't think you were supposed to use carbon or graphite in contact with
aluminum? Aren't these carbon fiber hinges?
Back to the original question, I used skybolt "camlocs" all the way around
on my 7A. Lots of work to mount them.lots more weight, lots of time. On
the 10, I think I'll use hinges for everything but the bottom.It takes me
about 15 seconds to undo the bottom camlocks on my 7A.no big deal to undo 6
camlocks.
Bob
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
I know they're expensive, but has anyone tried carbinges yet?
(www.carbinge.com) I wonder if they'll break if placed on the bottom too?
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US
SSA)
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
The hinge eyelets on the bottom of the lower cowl will break over time
because of vibration. Many people have put the hinge segments on and then
after they break switched over to screws. I decided to just install the
screw setup from the beginning. Tim probably has pix on his site.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges
for the bottom of the lower cowl?
thanks...
-Rob
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
wrote:
I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I
like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl
instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation
jesse@saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be
working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off
or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down.
And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets
definitely will break if you just use hinge there.
On the top though it is a nice clean look.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Mike,
I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and
would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use
screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach.
Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more
weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while.
Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts
<n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the
set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so
I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I
like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the
SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them).
So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both
(repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and
install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is
better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought
them...
Thanks
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 Flying
RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF
Sent um -
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Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts |
second RV. First had all pins--yucko--the 10 has the 2 side pins (it does look
cleaner there and they are pretty easy to remove, replace, BUT I really like
the skybolts in all other places. IMHO looks are fine, and much easier to use.
larry
--------
Larry and Gayle N104LG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238570#238570
Message 24
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Will be on the ground Tuesday/Wednesday and Thursday in Lakeland. Are
any other RV-10 builders considering attending Joe Norris' Seminar at
Noon on Thursday "The 51% Rule... Are You Legal?"
John Cox
#600
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Where do I start? |
Dave:
I agree with everyone else that said the temporary floor installation
should come out.
Following that, I would start at the beginning of the instructions and check
off/inspect everything that has been done, then
start building as you come to incomplete areas. The instructions are
written in a logical order and while you do have some options
following them in order will keep you from building yourself into a corner
or forgetting something that will be hard to go back to.
The big choices regarding when to do things will come as you complete the
forward upper fuselage section and deciding where to mount the
various avionics and electrical components that can be installed behind the
panel.
Good luck.
Dick Sipp
N110DV 130 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: "rvdave" <davidbf@centurytel.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 11:53 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Where do I start?
>
> I purchased a QB 10 from a prior builder, the empenage is complete to the
> tips along with the wings being complete with control linkages. The
> fuselage is untouched. I've been going through the plans and I'm
> indecisive about where to start on the fuselage because I don't want to
> get ahead of myself with doing too much to the floor area. I believe I
> have to eventually drill the pop rivets out of the floor area before
> attaching the steps but would like to get some feedback from experienced
> builders who have been to this stage and have some wisdom about which path
> to take first...thanks for your help. I don't yet have the finish kit.
> I'm stuck and need a little push.
>
> 1. Should I first remove pop rivets from floor area and completely loosen
> to have access to all areas?
>
> 2. Start building control linkages working my way aft?
>
> 3. Do as much as I can before attaching tailcone to fuselage?
>
> 4. Since steps came with fuselage kit should I attach those first then
> close floor area?
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 flying
> RV10 building
> Lake City, MI
> based at CAD
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238437#238437
>
>
>
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