---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/09/09: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:31 AM - Re: Where do I start? (AirMike) 2. 02:45 AM - Throttle Cable length - short (AirMike) 3. 05:05 AM - Re: Throttle Cable length - short (jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com) 4. 05:30 AM - Re: Re: Throttle Cable length - short (David McNeill) 5. 06:27 AM - Re: Where do I start? () 6. 06:27 AM - Re: Where do I start? () 7. 06:27 AM - Re: Where do I start? () 8. 07:26 AM - Re: Throttle Cable length - short (Vernon Smith) 9. 09:14 AM - Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Michael Kraus) 10. 09:24 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 11. 10:33 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Tim Olson) 12. 10:47 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Robin Marks) 13. 11:04 AM - Hardware heads up (David McNeill) 14. 11:20 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Jesse Saint) 15. 11:44 AM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Rob Kochman) 16. 12:23 PM - Good News (Paul Grimstad) 17. 01:06 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Jesse Saint) 18. 01:09 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 19. 02:55 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Bob Leffler) 20. 04:24 PM - Re: Hardware heads up (Carl Froehlich) 21. 04:33 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Bob and Karen Brown) 22. 04:50 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (Carl Froehlich) 23. 05:24 PM - Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts (lbgjb10) 24. 05:24 PM - Sun N Fun '09 (John Cox) 25. 06:43 PM - Re: Where do I start? (richard sipp) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:28 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Where do I start? From: "AirMike" All of Bob's comments are good. Especially the ones about the wire runs in the baggage area. This is a real bug-a-bo if neglected now. (I hope that the wings are open or that the wire runs are in there also! I hate to see you drilling out all those rivets, but it may not be avoidable. One of the weaknesses of the kit in my humble opinion is the buttoned up baggage floors. I would nut plate the whole area like Cessna does if I were starting over again. I compromised and put a small nut-plated hatch in over the bolt for the steps. This gives you visibility for an inspection. Another solution would be to order new back floors and cut out only the outboard areas on both sides. You could nut plate as needed and lay in your conduit and wires. Just overlap the floor panels. I ordered Van's wire kit at the point you are at. I did not use all of it, but it saved me a lot of effort and helped in the planning process. Good luck -------- OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 Q/B Kit - wiring and FWF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238450#238450 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:16 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Throttle Cable length - short From: "AirMike" Using a standard Van's panel mounted throttle (no quadrant), it fits very tight in the engine compartment. I can install it and get the threads inserted properly, but it will definitely rub and chafe on the bottom of the engine case. Anyone else had this same issue. It could definitely use an extra 3/4 of an inch in length. The prop & mixture were fine -------- OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "09 Q/B Kit - FWF end game Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238451#238451 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:43 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Throttle Cable length - short From: jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com We had the same problem, we ordered the cable called for on the RV-7, and it worked perfect. I think by trying to use the shorter cable it forces the throttle arm to a more horizontal position while at idle. This make the throttle more difficult to advance at low power settings, almost like you need to push on the throttle hard enough to get the arm to go over center. Ideally the angle between the cable and the throttle arm while the throttle cable is advanced half way is 90 degrees. Making the angle of the cable to the throttle arm at idle approximately 135 degrees, and at wide open throttle approximately 45 degrees. I think the standard cable forces the angle while at idle to be something like 160 degrees, which is the cause of the 'over center' feeling. I am not suggesting that it will ever approach an over center condition, just that it fells like it is approaching an over center condition. The aircraft we took transition training in had a throttle that was harder to advance for the first one third of travel. Not a big deal, just the sort of perfection we all strive for. BTW, Vans indicated "They have never had this come up before on the RV-10". I posted this question to the list a while back, and found one or two others with the same problem. Anyone need a standard length RV-10 throttle cable? Thanks, Jason Kreidler It runs, weight and balance complete, transition training done, doing minor finishing and calibrations, waiting on paperwork. #40617 N44YH Sheboygan Falls, WI (4) Partner Build Jason Kreidler Kyle Hokel Tony Kolar Wayne Elsner ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:58 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Throttle Cable length - short I installed the quadrant and found the mixture and throttle cables tight, They easily could have used another inch. I did cut a section of flexible tubing/high temp spiral wrap over the cables where they might have chaffed. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 5:01 AM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Throttle Cable length - short We had the same problem, we ordered the cable called for on the RV-7, and it worked perfect. I think by trying to use the shorter cable it forces the throttle arm to a more horizontal position while at idle. This make the throttle more difficult to advance at low power settings, almost like you need to push on the throttle hard enough to get the arm to go over center. Ideally the angle between the cable and the throttle arm while the throttle cable is advanced half way is 90 degrees. Making the angle of the cable to the throttle arm at idle approximately 135 degrees, and at wide open throttle approximately 45 degrees. I think the standard cable forces the angle while at idle to be something like 160 degrees, which is the cause of the 'over center' feeling. I am not suggesting that it will ever approach an over center condition, just that it fells like it is approaching an over center condition. The aircraft we took transition training in had a throttle that was harder to advance for the first one third of travel. Not a big deal, just the sort of perfection we all strive for. BTW, Vans indicated "They have never had this come up before on the RV-10". I posted this question to the list a while back, and found one or two others with the same problem. Anyone need a standard length RV-10 throttle cable? Thanks, Jason Kreidler It runs, weight and balance complete, transition training done, doing minor finishing and calibrations, waiting on paperwork. #40617 N44YH Sheboygan Falls, WI (4) Partner Build Jason Kreidler Kyle Hokel Tony Kolar Wayne Elsner ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:34 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: Where do I start? I would think that you want to remove the baggage floor immediately (along with most of the screw on panels) and set them aside for awhile. The baggage floor panels are just 'tack' riveted in place anyway. Not to be confused with the passenger compartment floors. You have a decision to make with those as to whether you want to remove and inspect or trust the QB builder and simply finish the riveting at some point later. It's a significant bit of work to remove these panels due to the landing gear support and the tight fit. I left them in. With baggage floor out, you have to build up the tailcone (assuming you have riveting skills, very straight forward). Then attach it all together. Others have made the point about getting wiring and controls in place as early as possible. I think getting the tail attached is first, then start your wiring and controls. As late as possible after the wiring and controls, put your step on and close up the baggage floor. You'll know it's the right time when you just can't think of anything else to go in there. Have fun! Bill "missing his shop while attending some family stuff" Watson ---- rvdave wrote: > > I purchased a QB 10 from a prior builder, the empenage is complete to the tips along with the wings being complete with control linkages. The fuselage is untouched. I've been going through the plans and I'm indecisive about where to start on the fuselage because I don't want to get ahead of myself with doing too much to the floor area. I believe I have to eventually drill the pop rivets out of the floor area before attaching the steps but would like to get some feedback from experienced builders who have been to this stage and have some wisdom about which path to take first...thanks for your help. I don't yet have the finish kit. I'm stuck and need a little push. > > 1. Should I first remove pop rivets from floor area and completely loosen to have access to all areas? > > 2. Start building control linkages working my way aft? > > 3. Do as much as I can before attaching tailcone to fuselage? > > 4. Since steps came with fuselage kit should I attach those first then close floor area? > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 flying > RV10 building > Lake City, MI > based at CAD > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238437#238437 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:35 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: Where do I start? I would think that you want to remove the baggage floor immediately (along with most of the screw on panels) and set them aside for awhile. The baggage floor panels are just 'tack' riveted in place anyway. Not to be confused with the passenger compartment floors. You have a decision to make with those as to whether you want to remove and inspect or trust the QB builder and simply finish the riveting at some point later. It's a significant bit of work to remove these panels due to the landing gear support and the tight fit. I left them in. With baggage floor out, you have to build up the tailcone (assuming you have riveting skills, very straight forward). Then attach it all together. Others have made the point about getting wiring and controls in place as early as possible. I think getting the tail attached is first, then start your wiring and controls. As late as possible after the wiring and controls, put your step on and close up the baggage floor. You'll know it's the right time when you just can't think of anything else to go in there. Have fun! Bill "missing his shop while attending some family stuff" Watson ---- rvdave wrote: > > I purchased a QB 10 from a prior builder, the empenage is complete to the tips along with the wings being complete with control linkages. The fuselage is untouched. I've been going through the plans and I'm indecisive about where to start on the fuselage because I don't want to get ahead of myself with doing too much to the floor area. I believe I have to eventually drill the pop rivets out of the floor area before attaching the steps but would like to get some feedback from experienced builders who have been to this stage and have some wisdom about which path to take first...thanks for your help. I don't yet have the finish kit. I'm stuck and need a little push. > > 1. Should I first remove pop rivets from floor area and completely loosen to have access to all areas? > > 2. Start building control linkages working my way aft? > > 3. Do as much as I can before attaching tailcone to fuselage? > > 4. Since steps came with fuselage kit should I attach those first then close floor area? > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 flying > RV10 building > Lake City, MI > based at CAD > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238437#238437 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:52 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: Where do I start? I would think that you want to remove the baggage floor immediately (along with most of the screw on panels) and set them aside for awhile. The baggage floor panels are just 'tack' riveted in place anyway. Not to be confused with the passenger compartment floors. You have a decision to make with those as to whether you want to remove and inspect or trust the QB builder and simply finish the riveting at some point later. It's a significant bit of work to remove these panels due to the landing gear support and the tight fit. I left them in. With baggage floor out, you have to build up the tailcone (assuming you have riveting skills, very straight forward). Then attach it all together. Others have made the point about getting wiring and controls in place as early as possible. I think getting the tail attached is first, then start your wiring and controls. As late as possible after the wiring and controls, put your step on and close up the baggage floor. You'll know it's the right time when you just can't think of anything else to go in there. Have fun! Bill "missing his shop while attending some family stuff" Watson ---- rvdave wrote: > > I purchased a QB 10 from a prior builder, the empenage is complete to the tips along with the wings being complete with control linkages. The fuselage is untouched. I've been going through the plans and I'm indecisive about where to start on the fuselage because I don't want to get ahead of myself with doing too much to the floor area. I believe I have to eventually drill the pop rivets out of the floor area before attaching the steps but would like to get some feedback from experienced builders who have been to this stage and have some wisdom about which path to take first...thanks for your help. I don't yet have the finish kit. I'm stuck and need a little push. > > 1. Should I first remove pop rivets from floor area and completely loosen to have access to all areas? > > 2. Start building control linkages working my way aft? > > 3. Do as much as I can before attaching tailcone to fuselage? > > 4. Since steps came with fuselage kit should I attach those first then close floor area? > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 flying > RV10 building > Lake City, MI > based at CAD > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238437#238437 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:23 AM PST US From: Vernon Smith Subject: RE: RV10-List: Throttle Cable length - short Hi Mike=2C I had the same problem. Ended up reclocking the throttle arm (for best trav el/leverage) and installing a cushion clamp=2C to hold the cable=2C in a s pare threaded mounting hole in the bottom rear of the oil sump (these are c oarse threads.) The hard one for me has been the mixture control. Vern Smith (finishing #324) > Subject: RV10-List: Throttle Cable length - short > From: Mikeabel@Pacbell.net > Date: Thu=2C 9 Apr 2009 02:43:39 -0700 > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > > > Using a standard Van's panel mounted throttle (no quadrant)=2C it fits ve ry tight in the engine compartment. I can install it and get the threads in serted properly=2C but it will definitely rub and chafe on the bottom of th e engine case. Anyone else had this same issue. It could definitely use an extra 3/4 of an inch in length. The prop & mixture were fine > > -------- > OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in "=3B09 > Q/B Kit - FWF end game > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238451#238451 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_ Mobile1_042009 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:25 AM PST US From: Michael Kraus Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them). So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought them... Thanks -Mike Kraus RV-4 Flying RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Mike, I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while. Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. Bob N442PM (flying) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them). So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought them... Thanks -Mike Kraus RV-4 Flying RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:17 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down. And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets definitely will break if you just use hinge there. On the top though it is a nice clean look. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: > > Mike, > > I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and > would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use > screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. > > Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more > weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while. > Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. > > Bob > N442PM (flying) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts > > > > I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like > the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the > firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 > seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but > I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks > of them). > > So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both > (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to > remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock > set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I > already bought them... > > Thanks > -Mike Kraus > RV-4 Flying > RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts From: "Robin Marks" Here is a glimpse of how the SkyBolts look on a -10 (SJ) cowl. Pins definitely look cleaner. SB's are more industrial looking. Since we are not discussing costs I won't mention that my 6A uses $0.05 S/S screws that work as well as SkyBolts. Robin ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:08 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RV10-List: Hardware heads up Just completing the first annual inspection and glad I used some Ace or McMaster Carr or Aircraft Spruce aviation hardware. I have enclosed a picture to illustrate the four substitutions. The aluminum fairing under the horizontal stabilizer. The plans call for counter sinking a #6 screw into the longeron. Then the longeron is tapped.. by the time the CS is complete there are few threads in the longeron for the fastener to grip. we decided to use stainless button heads with an internal hex head. Without the countersink there are more threads to grip. Where practical internally we used NAS hardware that had a hex external head with a Phillips internal pattern. there are two ways to remove the screw before resorting to drilling and Easy Out tool. On the tunnel the three forward screws on each side are CS stainless with an internal hex head rather than the Phillips head. When you are flat on your back trying to remove/insert the forward screws it is much easier to use an Allen wrench than applying pressure to a Phillips head to prevent slipping of the screw driver point. On the panel we used stainless cap screws where the cap and internal hex head allow two means of removal.. As you can probably tell I have done a few annuals and had to remove screws in inspection plates where the previous mechanic used a Makita with max torque setting ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:59 AM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation jesse@saintaviation.com 352-427-0285 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be > working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off > or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down. > And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets > definitely will break if you just use hinge there. > On the top though it is a nice clean look. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > > > Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: >> > >> Mike, >> I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and >> would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use >> screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. >> Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more >> weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a >> while. >> Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. >> Bob >> N442PM (flying) >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael >> Kraus >> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts >> >> I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't >> like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment >> to the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on >> the -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing >> the pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I >> don't like the looks of them). >> So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done >> both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins >> to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the >> cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts >> because I already bought them... >> Thanks >> -Mike Kraus >> RV-4 Flying >> RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF >> Sent from my iPhone > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts From: Rob Kochman Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges for the bottom of the lower cowl? thanks... -Rob On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint wrote: > > I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I > like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl > instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better. > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation > jesse@saintaviation.com > 352-427-0285 > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > >> >> Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be >> working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off >> or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down. >> And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets >> definitely will break if you just use hinge there. >> On the top though it is a nice clean look. >> >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying >> >> >> >> Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: >> >>> bob.condrey@baesystems.com> >>> Mike, >>> I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and >>> would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use >>> screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. >>> Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more >>> weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while. >>> Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. >>> Bob >>> N442PM (flying) >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus >>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM >>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts >>> >>> I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like >>> the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the >>> firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems >>> much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the >>> ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them). >>> So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both >>> (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove >>> and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is >>> better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought >>> them... >>> Thanks >>> -Mike Kraus >>> RV-4 Flying >>> RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Wings Woodinville, WA (near Seattle) http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:56 PM PST US From: "Paul Grimstad" Subject: RV10-List: Good News Rick & Kelly, I'm sure you are pleased to hear this news. The fight goes on for general aviation, especially experimentals but we may have won a small victory on this one. A Nevada resolution that would have asked Congress to award precedent-setting authority to a local aviation agency to preempt the FAA and ban any general aviation flight activity deemed "high risk" at North Las Vegas Airport has been reworked. Thanks to the collaborative efforts of the Clark County Aviation Association, key state legislators, and AOPA, the Nevada Senate's Energy, Infrastructure, and Transportation Committee instead unanimously passed a resolution on April 8 to support a stakeholders group of FAA officials, AOPA staff, local pilots, and the Clark County Department of Aviation to develop meaningful solutions to improve safety at the airport. Paul Grimstad RV10 450 Portland, Or. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:37 PM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts The hinge eyelets have a record of breaking. This is just the ones on the short pin underneath the bottom cowl. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 On Apr 9, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Rob Kochman wrote: > Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the > hinges for the bottom of the lower cowl? > > thanks... > > -Rob > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint > wrote: > > I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock > format. I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part > of the lower cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is > just as good or better. > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation > jesse@saintaviation.com > 352-427-0285 > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > > Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be > working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off > or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down. > And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets > definitely will break if you just use hinge there. > On the top though it is a nice clean look. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > > > Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: > > > Mike, > I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and > would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use > screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. > Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more > weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a > while. > Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. > Bob > N442PM (flying) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael > Kraus > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts > > I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't > like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to > the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the > -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the > pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't > like the looks of them). > So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done > both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins > to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the > cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts > because I already bought them... > Thanks > -Mike Kraus > RV-4 Flying > RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF > Sent um - > : > 0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10- > List< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > = --> h > a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > -- > Rob Kochman > RV-10 Wings > Woodinville, WA (near Seattle) > http://kochman.net/N819K > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:10 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" The hinge eyelets on the bottom of the lower cowl will break over time because of vibration. Many people have put the hinge segments on and then after they break switched over to screws. I decided to just install the screw setup from the beginning. Tim probably has pix on his site. Bob N442PM (flying) _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges for the bottom of the lower cowl? thanks... -Rob On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint wrote: I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation jesse@saintaviation.com 352-427-0285 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson wrote: Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down. And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets definitely will break if you just use hinge there. On the top though it is a nice clean look. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: Mike, I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while. Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. Bob N442PM (flying) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them). So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought them... Thanks -Mike Kraus RV-4 Flying RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF Sent um - : 0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List < - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ->= --> h a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Wings Woodinville, WA (near Seattle) http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:07 PM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I know they're expensive, but has anyone tried carbinges yet? (www.carbinge.com) I wonder if they'll break if placed on the bottom too? From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US SSA) Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts The hinge eyelets on the bottom of the lower cowl will break over time because of vibration. Many people have put the hinge segments on and then after they break switched over to screws. I decided to just install the screw setup from the beginning. Tim probably has pix on his site. Bob N442PM (flying) _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges for the bottom of the lower cowl? thanks... -Rob On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint wrote: I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation jesse@saintaviation.com 352-427-0285 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson wrote: Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down. And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets definitely will break if you just use hinge there. On the top though it is a nice clean look. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: Mike, I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while. Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. Bob N442PM (flying) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them). So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought them... Thanks -Mike Kraus RV-4 Flying RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF Sent um - : 0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List < - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ->= --> h a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Wings Woodinville, WA (near Seattle) http://kochman.net/N819K http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:30 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Hardware heads up I didn't like the stock set up of threading holes in the longeron for screws (aluminum threads, steel screw). I put nutplates in each of these locations - keeping the countersunk screw with a tinnerman on the fiberglass. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (450 hrs) RV-10 (fuselage) From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 2:02 PM Subject: RV10-List: Hardware heads up Just completing the first annual inspection and glad I used some Ace or McMaster Carr or Aircraft Spruce aviation hardware. I have enclosed a picture to illustrate the four substitutions. The aluminum fairing under the horizontal stabilizer. The plans call for counter sinking a #6 screw into the longeron. Then the longeron is tapped.. by the time the CS is complete there are few threads in the longeron for the fastener to grip. we decided to use stainless button heads with an internal hex head. Without the countersink there are more threads to grip. Where practical internally we used NAS hardware that had a hex external head with a Phillips internal pattern. there are two ways to remove the screw before resorting to drilling and Easy Out tool. On the tunnel the three forward screws on each side are CS stainless with an internal hex head rather than the Phillips head. When you are flat on your back trying to remove/insert the forward screws it is much easier to use an Allen wrench than applying pressure to a Phillips head to prevent slipping of the screw driver point. On the panel we used stainless cap screws where the cap and internal hex head allow two means of removal.. As you can probably tell I have done a few annuals and had to remove screws in inspection plates where the previous mechanic used a Makita with max torque setting ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:42 PM PST US From: "Bob and Karen Brown" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I didn't think you were supposed to use carbon or graphite in contact with aluminum? Aren't these carbon fiber hinges? Back to the original question, I used skybolt "camlocs" all the way around on my 7A. Lots of work to mount them.lots more weight, lots of time. On the 10, I think I'll use hinges for everything but the bottom.It takes me about 15 seconds to undo the bottom camlocks on my 7A.no big deal to undo 6 camlocks. Bob From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I know they're expensive, but has anyone tried carbinges yet? (www.carbinge.com) I wonder if they'll break if placed on the bottom too? From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US SSA) Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts The hinge eyelets on the bottom of the lower cowl will break over time because of vibration. Many people have put the hinge segments on and then after they break switched over to screws. I decided to just install the screw setup from the beginning. Tim probably has pix on his site. Bob N442PM (flying) _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges for the bottom of the lower cowl? thanks... -Rob On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint wrote: I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation jesse@saintaviation.com 352-427-0285 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson wrote: Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down. And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets definitely will break if you just use hinge there. On the top though it is a nice clean look. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: Mike, I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while. Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. Bob N442PM (flying) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them). So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought them... Thanks -Mike Kraus RV-4 Flying RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF Sent um - : 0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List < - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ->= --> h a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Wings Woodinville, WA (near Seattle) http://kochman.net/N819K http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:07 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I used hinges on my 8A all the way around, no problems. I'll do the same on the 10. I will also have the side hinge pins installed/removed from the cockpit. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (450 hrs) RV-10 (fuselage) From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob and Karen Brown Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 7:30 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I didn't think you were supposed to use carbon or graphite in contact with aluminum? Aren't these carbon fiber hinges? Back to the original question, I used skybolt "camlocs" all the way around on my 7A. Lots of work to mount them.lots more weight, lots of time. On the 10, I think I'll use hinges for everything but the bottom.It takes me about 15 seconds to undo the bottom camlocks on my 7A.no big deal to undo 6 camlocks. Bob From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I know they're expensive, but has anyone tried carbinges yet? (www.carbinge.com) I wonder if they'll break if placed on the bottom too? From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US SSA) Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts The hinge eyelets on the bottom of the lower cowl will break over time because of vibration. Many people have put the hinge segments on and then after they break switched over to screws. I decided to just install the screw setup from the beginning. Tim probably has pix on his site. Bob N442PM (flying) _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts Jesse, Bob... what's the reason for using something other than the hinges for the bottom of the lower cowl? thanks... -Rob On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jesse Saint wrote: I have done both and much prefer the look and ease of the stock format. I like the option of skybolt fasteners for the bottom part of the lower cowl instead of the pins, but nutplates & screws is just as good or better. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation jesse@saintaviation.com 352-427-0285 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Tim Olson wrote: Put me down for the same. I like the pins. They seem to be working out real well. Once I even had the top cowl off or nearly off before my hangar door could crank down. And, I have screws on the bottom, because those eyelets definitely will break if you just use hinge there. On the top though it is a nice clean look. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: Mike, I've been flying for almost a year, am happy with the stock setup and would do it that way again. Only change I made was to use screws/nutplates on the lower cowl bottom attach. Sometimes it's hard to get a consensus about things so I'd give more weight to the opinions of those that have been flying for quite a while. Tim Olson, Scott Schmidt, etc. Bob N442PM (flying) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts I don't want to start a primer war here, but on my RV-4 I didn't like the set up for the upper cowl using the pins for attachment to the firewall so I went with SkyBolt Fasteners. The set up on the -10 seems much better. I like the clean look of not seeing the pins, but I like the ease of the SkyBolt Fasteners (but I don't like the looks of them). So my question is for those who either have the pins or have done both (repeat offenders) how much of a pain in the @ss are the pins to remove and install? Is it a good set up, or do you think the cam lock set up is better? Let not talk the cost of the SlyBolts because I already bought them... Thanks -Mike Kraus RV-4 Flying RV-10 Cowling, wiring, FWF Sent um - : 0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List < - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ->= --> h a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Wings Woodinville, WA (near Seattle) http://kochman.net/N819K http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:03 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Cowl Pins or Sky Bolts From: "lbgjb10" second RV. First had all pins--yucko--the 10 has the 2 side pins (it does look cleaner there and they are pretty easy to remove, replace, BUT I really like the skybolts in all other places. IMHO looks are fine, and much easier to use. larry -------- Larry and Gayle N104LG Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238570#238570 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:03 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Sun N Fun '09 From: "John Cox" Will be on the ground Tuesday/Wednesday and Thursday in Lakeland. Are any other RV-10 builders considering attending Joe Norris' Seminar at Noon on Thursday "The 51% Rule... Are You Legal?" John Cox #600 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:16 PM PST US From: "richard sipp" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Where do I start? Dave: I agree with everyone else that said the temporary floor installation should come out. Following that, I would start at the beginning of the instructions and check off/inspect everything that has been done, then start building as you come to incomplete areas. The instructions are written in a logical order and while you do have some options following them in order will keep you from building yourself into a corner or forgetting something that will be hard to go back to. The big choices regarding when to do things will come as you complete the forward upper fuselage section and deciding where to mount the various avionics and electrical components that can be installed behind the panel. Good luck. Dick Sipp N110DV 130 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "rvdave" Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 11:53 PM Subject: RV10-List: Where do I start? > > I purchased a QB 10 from a prior builder, the empenage is complete to the > tips along with the wings being complete with control linkages. The > fuselage is untouched. I've been going through the plans and I'm > indecisive about where to start on the fuselage because I don't want to > get ahead of myself with doing too much to the floor area. I believe I > have to eventually drill the pop rivets out of the floor area before > attaching the steps but would like to get some feedback from experienced > builders who have been to this stage and have some wisdom about which path > to take first...thanks for your help. I don't yet have the finish kit. > I'm stuck and need a little push. > > 1. Should I first remove pop rivets from floor area and completely loosen > to have access to all areas? > > 2. Start building control linkages working my way aft? > > 3. Do as much as I can before attaching tailcone to fuselage? > > 4. Since steps came with fuselage kit should I attach those first then > close floor area? > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 flying > RV10 building > Lake City, MI > based at CAD > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238437#238437 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.