---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/29/09: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:52 AM - Re: Defrost fans - Part Deux (n801bh@netzero.com) 2. 04:18 AM - Re: Defrost fans - Part Deux (Bob Leffler) 3. 04:50 AM - Re: Defrost fans - Part Deux (Tim Olson) 4. 05:27 AM - Re: Defrost fans - Part Deux (linn) 5. 05:50 AM - Re: Defrost fans - Part Deux (Les Kearney) 6. 05:34 PM - Engine purchase considerations (Dsyvert@aol.com) 7. 05:49 PM - Re: Defrost fans - Part Deux (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 8. 05:52 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (Kelly McMullen) 9. 06:04 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 10. 06:09 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (Bob Leffler) 11. 06:34 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (John Cox) 12. 06:46 PM - fiberglass options (Eric_Kallio) 13. 06:49 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (davidsoutpost@comcast.net) 14. 07:02 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (Robin Marks) 15. 07:08 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (Jack Phillips) 16. 07:08 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (richard sipp) 17. 07:45 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (Dave Leikam) 18. 07:59 PM - final door trim (Dave Leikam) 19. 08:10 PM - Re: fiberglass options (Dave Saylor) 20. 08:11 PM - Re: final door trim (Deems Davis) 21. 08:21 PM - IAS for Pahse 1 without pants/fairings (Deems Davis) 22. 08:35 PM - Re: final door trim (pascal) 23. 08:57 PM - Re: IAS for Pahse 1 without pants/fairings (McGANN, Ron) 24. 09:09 PM - Re: fiberglass options (Lenny Iszak) 25. 09:36 PM - Re: Engine purchase considerations (Jim Berry) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:11 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux I did just that on my V-8 powered Zenith 801. The pic of it is about 20 minutes into the video. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7272451917550730841&hl=en do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Folks south of the border rarely fly with cockpit cold enough for frost, only condensation, typically. That is why you are seeing these answers. I'd think you would want some engine heat, and with your water cooled engine you could just use an automotive heater core with some ductwork to get what you want. On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:44 PM, linn wrote: > > Les Kearney wrote: >> >> >> Hmmm >> >> Always one to beat a dead horse, I'll ask a different question. >> >> When starting on a cold day (say -15c), when the windows are frosted up, >> will moving ambient air (temp -15c) over the windscreen remove frost. > > If it's dry. Cold air is typically dry, so it will remove the frost f rom > the inside ..... but it may take time. > >> >> When I start my car in similar circumstances, the defroster puts out warm >> air .... > > I think that's true only after the engine warms up! My new truck puts out > cold air when the engi9ne is cold ..... and I think it turns on the ai r > conditioner to deliver dryer air ...... but i don't know what it does when > the engine warms up. >> >> Inquiring minds need to know.... >> > Oh yeah, go ahead and start a food fight!!! > Linn >> >> Les > > ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Click now to find great remedies for hangovers! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYX6cQmjZgIy9ASoQlp0 1vZSytJTQhAGJdJlVI6BL51vXzy5rSiCdC/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:47 AM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux My comments are based upon feedback from several folks that are already flying in that they only crack the heat vents in even really cold weather because the heat output is more than ample to heat the cabin. My concern would be that it would be too hot to re-direct to the windshield. With a radiator, you may have better regulation of the temperature. Granted in Ohio I haven't had to deal with heavy frost. Ambient air isn't just from avionics. The front heat vent on the tunnel should be providing heat that travels up through the panel, in which the computer fans aid in circulating that warm air upwards towards the windshield. The question then to ask is at what temperature does this approach become ineffective? I don't have any answers or solutions, just more questions..... bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:22 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Bob I will have a Subie under the hood so I will have hot air available. At least where I fly, a fan moving ambient air would only be moving cold air, at least until the cabin heat kicked in. Even in my Cherokee it takes a while for the defroster to have an effect. Those flying in colder climates might find the "fan" option to be a disappointment. I have flown in very cold wx where it was difficult for the defroster to keep up. I am uncertain how a fan only option would have fared. Cheers Les -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: April-28-09 5:46 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux That's a common problem with Cherokee's. Most people will install them with the slot point towards the window, but it is really supposed to be pointed away from the window. Of course, on the Cherokee the defroster was heated air as oppose to what most folks are just using ambient air from under the console which the temperatures are elevated do to the avionics. I've thought about using the Cherokee approach, but I suspect that it would be way too hot to use heated air. I'm not sure that the slots do anything better than just the standard computer fan that most folks use. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:09 PM Subject: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Hi Having given some thought to the defrost fans, I am wondering if a slot would be more effective. Cars have a long strip that goes across the length of the windscreen that allows warm air to pass along all sections on the windscreen. Would this arrangement be better than having a couple of hot spots on the dash? I am not sure how to do this but I am wondering about the basic idea only. Then again, a couple of fans may move so much air that this might be moot. My Cherokee has a couple of 3" slots that allow warm air to hit the windscreen. The "blast" of hot air has caused a slight distortion in the windscreen - something that may be worth considering as well. Cheers Les #40643 - some assembly required ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:52 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Absolutely right. Plenty of heat available under the panel year round. Front heat is enough to burn your foot if you put it on full. All that air goes under the panel. My EIS was easily at 110F when it was 10F outside. Not only do you need a vent for defrost (fan) but you need it to keep avionics cool. It's plenty warm to defrost. I would NOT duct hot air to the vent or it could easily get too hot on the 10. And, I don't live in a hot area. If the front seat people have adequate heat, so will the defrost. On Apr 29, 2009, at 6:19 AM, "Bob Leffler" wrote: > > My comments are based upon feedback from several folks that are > already > flying in that they only crack the heat vents in even really cold > weather > because the heat output is more than ample to heat the cabin. My > concern > would be that it would be too hot to re-direct to the windshield. > With a > radiator, you may have better regulation of the temperature. > > Granted in Ohio I haven't had to deal with heavy frost. > > Ambient air isn't just from avionics. The front heat vent on the > tunnel > should be providing heat that travels up through the panel, in which > the > computer fans aid in circulating that warm air upwards towards the > windshield. The question then to ask is at what temperature does this > approach become ineffective? > > I don't have any answers or solutions, just more questions..... > > bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:22 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux > > > Bob > > I will have a Subie under the hood so I will have hot air available. > At > least where I fly, a fan moving ambient air would only be moving > cold air, > at least until the cabin heat kicked in. Even in my Cherokee it > takes a > while for the defroster to have an effect. Those flying in colder > climates > might find the "fan" option to be a disappointment. > > I have flown in very cold wx where it was difficult for the > defroster to > keep up. I am uncertain how a fan only option would have fared. > > Cheers > > Les > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler > Sent: April-28-09 5:46 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux > > > That's a common problem with Cherokee's. Most people will install > them with > the slot point towards the window, but it is really supposed to be > pointed > away from the window. Of course, on the Cherokee the defroster was > heated > air as oppose to what most folks are just using ambient air from > under the > console which the temperatures are elevated do to the avionics. > > I've thought about using the Cherokee approach, but I suspect that > it would > be way too hot to use heated air. I'm not sure that the slots do > anything > better than just the standard computer fan that most folks use. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:09 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux > > > Hi > > Having given some thought to the defrost fans, I am wondering if a > slot > would be more effective. Cars have a long strip that goes across the > length > of the windscreen that allows warm air to pass along all sections on > the > windscreen. > > Would this arrangement be better than having a couple of hot spots > on the > dash? I am not sure how to do this but I am wondering about the > basic idea > only. Then again, a couple of fans may move so much air that this > might be > moot. > > My Cherokee has a couple of 3" slots that allow warm air to hit the > windscreen. The "blast" of hot air has caused a slight distortion in > the > windscreen - something that may be worth considering as well. > > Cheers > > Les > #40643 - some assembly required > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:17 AM PST US From: linn Subject: Re: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Kelly McMullen wrote: > > Folks south of the border rarely fly with cockpit cold enough for > frost, only condensation, typically. That's true ...... but some of us down south have experience up nawth. That is why you are seeing these > answers. I'd think you would want some engine heat, and with your > water cooled engine you could just use an automotive heater core with > some ductwork to get what you want. Even down south we have a few cold days ..... usually on weekends when we're flying for food, and we use the defrosters to keep the3 windshield clear of that hot moist air that just sat down. The point I was making was that the place on the windshield where the heated air hits will distort over time. My Grumman, which has not spent a whole lot of time out of Florida, has that distortion. The problem is that you're trying to heat the rest of the airplane with the hottest air you can get .... and that same heat is bouncing off the windshield. Maybe having a mixer with cooler air would work if you go with the heater core method. Melting frost on the outside of the windshield is problematic ..... and a spray bottle with some de-ice fluid would be better. I don't know, never tried it. Just a thought. Linn > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:44 PM, linn wrote: >> >> Les Kearney wrote: >>> >>> Hmmm >>> >>> Always one to beat a dead horse, I'll ask a different question. >>> >>> When starting on a cold day (say -15c), when the windows are frosted up, >>> will moving ambient air (temp -15c) over the windscreen remove frost. >> If it's dry. Cold air is typically dry, so it will remove the frost from >> the inside ..... but it may take time. >> >>> When I start my car in similar circumstances, the defroster puts out warm >>> air .... >> I think that's true only after the engine warms up! My new truck puts out >> cold air when the engi9ne is cold ..... and I think it turns on the air >> conditioner to deliver dryer air ...... but i don't know what it does when >> the engine warms up. >>> Inquiring minds need to know.... >>> >> Oh yeah, go ahead and start a food fight!!! >> Linn >>> Les >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:39 AM PST US From: "Les Kearney" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Hi Kelly I do have a heat exchanger, driven off the water system, that provides heat. I just couldn't see how moving cold air on the windscreen would remove the kind of frost (not condensation) that I see up here north of the 49th. When I mentioned this discussion to Joan, my wife, she just laughed and suggested that people need to come up here and see what real frost is like. Cheers Les PS: How is your -10 coming along? -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: April-28-09 10:59 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Folks south of the border rarely fly with cockpit cold enough for frost, only condensation, typically. That is why you are seeing these answers. I'd think you would want some engine heat, and with your water cooled engine you could just use an automotive heater core with some ductwork to get what you want. On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:44 PM, linn wrote: > > Les Kearney wrote: >> >> >> Hmmm >> >> Always one to beat a dead horse, I'll ask a different question. >> >> When starting on a cold day (say -15c), when the windows are frosted up, >> will moving ambient air (temp -15c) over the windscreen remove frost. > > If it's dry. Cold air is typically dry, so it will remove the frost from > the inside ..... but it may take time. > >> >> When I start my car in similar circumstances, the defroster puts out warm >> air .... > > I think that's true only after the engine warms up! My new truck puts out > cold air when the engi9ne is cold ..... and I think it turns on the air > conditioner to deliver dryer air ...... but i don't know what it does when > the engine warms up. >> >> Inquiring minds need to know.... >> > Oh yeah, go ahead and start a food fight!!! > Linn >> >> Les > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:37 PM PST US From: Dsyvert@aol.com Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's announced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase the engine and prop. Vans (bundled) Vans Sun-N-Fun After 5/15 Engine $36,150 $39,550 Prop 6,835 6,835 (two blade blended) Shipping 500 (assume $500) Other? ?? Total $42,985 $ 46,885 Delta ~$4,000 I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. The three things I've heard others comment on about Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport are: 1) Longer warranty 2) Better customer service 3) More attention to balancing, etc. I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider it. My thoughts on overhauled are: 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be worth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few thousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she would say new rather than used (even if zero timed) I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some comments, considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / different? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered **************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and click.net%2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:19 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux I think the more important point is that if you have frost on the windshield, you probably have it elsewhere on the aircraft which legally (here in the US at least) has to be removed before flight so why wouldn't you remove it from the windscreen at the same time? You are basically correct though, cold air won't remove the frost from outside the window but any air warming the windscreen above 32F will eventually clear an area on it. As previously stated, cold, dry air will remove moisture from the inside the windscreen. I'm also willing to bet that adequate heat from the avionics, and off the heat muff, in a standard RV can be generated as fast as what a liquid cooled engine can generate in cold climates from a cold start ( the time you most likely would need to get rid of frost). Possibly even quicker given the time it takes to warm up the engine, coolant, and produce noticeable output from the heater core. My $0.02 Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:50 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Hi Kelly I do have a heat exchanger, driven off the water system, that provides heat. I just couldn't see how moving cold air on the windscreen would remove the kind of frost (not condensation) that I see up here north of the 49th. When I mentioned this discussion to Joan, my wife, she just laughed and suggested that people need to come up here and see what real frost is like. Cheers Les PS: How is your -10 coming along? -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: April-28-09 10:59 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Defrost fans - Part Deux Folks south of the border rarely fly with cockpit cold enough for frost, only condensation, typically. That is why you are seeing these answers. I'd think you would want some engine heat, and with your water cooled engine you could just use an automotive heater core with some ductwork to get what you want. On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:44 PM, linn wrote: > > Les Kearney wrote: >> >> >> Hmmm >> >> Always one to beat a dead horse, I'll ask a different question. >> >> When starting on a cold day (say -15c), when the windows are frosted up, >> will moving ambient air (temp -15c) over the windscreen remove frost. > > If it's dry. Cold air is typically dry, so it will remove the frost from > the inside ..... but it may take time. > >> >> When I start my car in similar circumstances, the defroster puts out warm >> air .... > > I think that's true only after the engine warms up! My new truck puts out > cold air when the engi9ne is cold ..... and I think it turns on the air > conditioner to deliver dryer air ...... but i don't know what it does when > the engine warms up. >> >> Inquiring minds need to know.... >> > Oh yeah, go ahead and start a food fight!!! > Linn >> >> Les > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations From: Kelly McMullen Other considerations: You are stuck with Lycoming choice of accessories, e.g. Slick mags, Skytech starter, Precision RSA injection, stock induction through oil sump. Barrett can get you cold air induction and your choice of fuel injection, starter, etc. Perhaps with the savings you can swap for whatever accessories you want. You are also stuck with two bladed prop, unless you want to burn your savings with 3 bladed composite prop from Vans, Hartzell or MT. On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 5:31 PM, wrote: > Gang, > > My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting > to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's > announced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase > the engine and prop. > > Vans(bundled)Vans > Sun-N-FunAfter 5/15 > > Engine$36,150$39,550 > Prop 6,8356,835(two blade blended) > Shipping 500 (assume $500) > Other??? > Total$42,985$46,885 Delta ~$4,000 > > > I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other > shops. > > The three things I've heard others comment onaboutLycoming shops such > as Barrett and AeroSportare: > 1) Longer warranty > 2) Better customer service > 3) More attention to balancing, etc. > > > I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider > it. My thoughts on overhauled are: > 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a > certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be > worth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. > 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few > thousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. > 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she would > say new rather than used (even if zero timed) > > I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some > comments,considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / > different? > > Thanks > Dave Syvertson > 40625 > Finishing Kit Ordered > > > ________________________________ > Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops! > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:58 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Bite your tongue on that 150k comment! :) You have the right idea alrea dy though, look at what you want and what you get from each "deal" and make sure you are comparing Apples to Apples. With Van's offer you get a grea t price but it's a stock crate engine from Lycoming. If you want something that has tighter tolerances and other goodies like balancing, porting, fue l system upgrade, ignition upgrade, cold air, etc you will have to talk to one of the authorized building outfits. I went with Barrett for their repu tation and personal attention to things. Great people, great engine, and I wouldn't change a thing. Aerosport has a great reputation but I know one builder that had some "issues" with a rebuilt from them. They ultimately took care of it by getting them to go with a new X-540 but gave Aerosport t hem full credit. I also rather give my business to small businesses in the US, especially in this economy, but that's just my preference. Michael From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Dsyvert@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:31 PM Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's annou nced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase the en gine and prop. Vans (bundled) Vans Sun-N-Fun After 5/15 Engine $36,150 $39,550 Prop 6,835 6,835 (two blade blended) Shipping 500 (assume $500) Other? ?? Total $42,985 $ 46,885 Delta ~$4,000 I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. The three things I've heard others comment on about Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport are: 1) Longer warranty 2) Better customer service 3) More attention to balancing, etc. I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider i t. My thoughts on overhauled are: 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be w orth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few th ousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she woul d say new rather than used (even if zero timed) I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some comm ents, considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / diffe rent? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered ________________________________ /100126575x1220631276x1201390200/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net% 2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:14 PM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Dave, I'm just a few months behind you in the build and have similar questions floating through my head. I've also got the added complexity of finding employment before I can order an engine. That still doesn't prevent me from being well prepared when the time comes. I believe going with a new engine is probably the best value, especially when you consider resale. Most of the folks that went with a rebuild ended up spending 80-90% of new and had a slew of headaches and/or issues that wouldn't have happened with a new engine. Clearly the Van's OEM engine is the least expensive way to get a new engine. I think there is also value in getting an engine from Barrett, AeroSport, Mattituck, or Lycoming Thunderbolt. I don't question the value these folks add. These other shops can also run your engine on their test stands longer. I know one shop that has given out their personal cell phone numbers. You can't beat that for customer service. Jeff Schans has stated that Lycoming tech reps will answer any questions that come to them, even on OEM engines. However, I have no firsthand knowledge of this at the moment. My situation is that the longer I'm unemployed, the less I'll have in my budget for an engine and may have to go with the low cost solution as oppose the best value solution (I'm leaning towards BPE). I'm clearly not in a situation to take advantage of this deal at the moment. I'm hoping that there will be something similar at OSH, although it will most likely cost more. The other variable you haven't mentioned is getting a certified engine from Van's. That would cut your phase I time down to 25 hours if you also got a certified prop combination. Although I don't think that's worth the extra expense. bob From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dsyvert@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:31 PM Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's announced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase the engine and prop. Vans (bundled) Vans Sun-N-Fun After 5/15 Engine $36,150 $39,550 Prop 6,835 6,835 (two blade blended) Shipping 500 (assume $500) Other? ?? Total $42,985 $ 46,885 Delta ~$4,000 I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. The three things I've heard others comment on about Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport are: 1) Longer warranty 2) Better customer service 3) More attention to balancing, etc. I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider it. My thoughts on overhauled are: 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be worth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few thousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she would say new rather than used (even if zero timed) I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some comments, considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / different? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered _____ Big p:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv> savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:02 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations From: "John Cox" Randy Debauw went with a reconditioned Prop and a rebuilt engine. He retained his Vans "One Original Engine and One Original Prop" for a day down the road. As prices go through the roof, prudence grabs many builder's attention. Tornado season is about to provide a fresh crop of engines to have rebuilt. After flying Transcontinental to SNF, I am more convinced than ever that Barrett's dyno attention and Cold Air induction are features of value for me. The mating of a Forsling exhaust is icing on the cake. I do not know of other rebuilders that have offered the improved exhaust system to couple with the induction improvements. Time should show a whole stable of satisfied Barrett customers. I know that the Aerosport crowd is just as dedicated that their decision was right for their requirements and their budget. Mine are a bit higher and the pain is going to be muffled by the pleasure of believing the RV-10 was the right choice. Time has shown the features of the AFS product line helps dampen some of the purchases. John 600 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:14 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Dave, I'm just a few months behind you in the build and have similar questions floating through my head. I've also got the added complexity of finding employment before I can order an engine. That still doesn't prevent me from being well prepared when the time comes. I believe going with a new engine is probably the best value, especially when you consider resale. Most of the folks that went with a rebuild ended up spending 80-90% of new and had a slew of headaches and/or issues that wouldn't have happened with a new engine. Clearly the Van's OEM engine is the least expensive way to get a new engine. I think there is also value in getting an engine from Barrett, AeroSport, Mattituck, or Lycoming Thunderbolt. I don't question the value these folks add. These other shops can also run your engine on their test stands longer. I know one shop that has given out their personal cell phone numbers. You can't beat that for customer service. Jeff Schans has stated that Lycoming tech reps will answer any questions that come to them, even on OEM engines. However, I have no firsthand knowledge of this at the moment. My situation is that the longer I'm unemployed, the less I'll have in my budget for an engine and may have to go with the low cost solution as oppose the best value solution (I'm leaning towards BPE). I'm clearly not in a situation to take advantage of this deal at the moment. I'm hoping that there will be something similar at OSH, although it will most likely cost more. The other variable you haven't mentioned is getting a certified engine from Van's. That would cut your phase I time down to 25 hours if you also got a certified prop combination. Although I don't think that's worth the extra expense. bob From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dsyvert@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:31 PM Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's announced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase the engine and prop. Vans (bundled) Vans Sun-N-Fun After 5/15 Engine $36,150 $39,550 Prop 6,835 6,835 (two blade blended) Shipping 500 (assume $500) Other? ?? Total $42,985 $ 46,885 Delta ~$4,000 I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. The three things I've heard others comment on about Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport are: 1) Longer warranty 2) Better customer service 3) More attention to balancing, etc. I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider it. My thoughts on overhauled are: 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be worth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few thousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she would say new rather than used (even if zero timed) I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some comments, considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / different? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered ________________________________ Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:11 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: fiberglass options From: "Eric_Kallio" Posted this on the VAF site as well but want to catch some more of the group. For the finish kit has anyone gone with after market fiberglass? I am using Sam James cowl and plenum, but what about wheel pants and fairings? I have checked out Fairings etc, just trying to see what else is out there with better quality than the Vans fiberglass I have received in the previous kits. Eric Kallio Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242000#242000 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:28 PM PST US From: davidsoutpost@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations There are alternatives to buying new.=C2- I purchased my=C2-2001 =C2- IO-540 V4A5 from Wentworth for $13,500.=C2- 461 total hours since new and only a little over 100 hours since factory serviced for the crankshaft AD. =C2- That included new bearings, rings, ect.=C2- The case inspection wa s under $450 including shipping.=C2- The crank, rods, and crank gear=C2 -inspection=C2-with the flange straightening=C2-was $950 with shippin g.=C2- The gasket/seal set and a new set of rod bearings=C2- is going t o run me about=C2-$500.=C2- I just freshened up the cylinders and valve s.=C2- I will reuse the main bearings,,,,they have only 100 hours on them .=C2- Bottom line is my engine will be practically new for about a $16,00 0 investment with the accessories.=C2- Thats less than half of Vans price .=C2- There are deals out there for builders on a budget such as myself t hat are willing to go this route.=C2- Granted I would have preferred=C2 -to write a check to vans for a brand new set-up, but my bank account wou ld not allow that. :)=C2- =C2-=C2- ----- Original Message ----- From: Dsyvert@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:31:29 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple wee ks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's announced price increase, it seems like now might be the tim e to purchase the engine and prop.=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-Vans=C2-(bundled)=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-Vans =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-Sun-N-Fun=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-After 5/15=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-Engine=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -$36,150=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-$39,550 =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-Prop=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-6,835=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-6,835=C2-=C2 -(two blade blended) =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-Shipping=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2- 500 (assume $500) =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-Other?=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-?? =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Total=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-$42,985=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-$=C2-46,885=C2- Delta ~$4,000 =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-The three things I've heard others comment on=C2- about=C2-Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport=C2-are: =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-1) =C2-Longer warranty =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-2) =C2-Better customer se rvice =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-3) =C2-More attention to balancing, etc. =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider it. My thoughts on overhauled are: =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-1)=C2- The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be worth it. If I was saving $15,0 00 then it would be a different matter. =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-2)=C2- Re-sale vale for t he cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few thousand dollars, that may reduc e the resale value more. =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-3)=C2- Have not brought u p with the better half, but I'm sure she would say new rather than used (ev en if zero timed) =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I l ooking for some comments,=C2-considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / different? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- == ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:36 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations From: "Robin Marks" Dave, I have to second John's comments on the BPE/Cold Induction/Forsling combination. My power plant is awesome. The BPE people were fantastic to work with. I also have an 0-360 by Aerosport what has run flawlessly. Like Michael I like keeping the $ in the US if one can and with the exchange rate (at the time I made my purchase) made the BPE less expensive than the Aerosport when considering custom paint & cold induction. I never really took a hard look at the few other well regarded builders but I do remember that in my configuration (wanting a premium Cold Induction unit) BPE was at or below all the other builders at the time. One comforting option BPE provided was extra bench time to break in the engine. While I did pay for that time it gave me peace of mind knowing that the engine was exercised more than most by professionals. I can't say enough good things about BPE and their customer service. They even personally delivered my engine as we were on one of their employees routes. Cost for hand delivery $0.00. As stated before make sure you are comparing Fuji apples to Fuji apples. http://www.painttheweb.com/rv-10/engine.htm Robin From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dsyvert@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:31 PM Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's announced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase the engine and prop. Vans (bundled) Vans Sun-N-Fun After 5/15 Engine $36,150 $39,550 Prop 6,835 6,835 (two blade blended) Shipping 500 (assume $500) Other? ?? Total $42,985 $ 46,885 Delta ~$4,000 I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. The three things I've heard others comment on about Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport are: 1) Longer warranty 2) Better customer service 3) More attention to balancing, etc. I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider it. My thoughts on overhauled are: 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be worth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few thousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she would say new rather than used (even if zero timed) I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some comments, considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / different? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered ________________________________ Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops! =http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 04/29/09 18:03:00 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:38 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations I did somewhat similar Dave, I bought an O-540 AD5 from an Aztec, with 60 hours SMOH. I had planned to buy a run out core and overhaul it myself, but this engine had everything done that I would have done - crankshaft and camshaft overhauled by Aircraft Specialties, crankcase overhauled by Divco, new Millenium cylinders and pistons, new Slick mags. All logs intact. Total price, $13,000. The deals are there, you've just got to look for them. My goal is to build a good solid IFR capable RV-10 for under $100,000. Jack Phillips #40610 Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of davidsoutpost@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:48 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations There are alternatives to buying new. I purchased my 2001 IO-540 V4A5 from Wentworth for $13,500. 461 total hours since new and only a little over 100 hours since factory serviced for the crankshaft AD. That included new bearings, rings, ect. The case inspection was under $450 including shipping. The crank, rods, and crank gear inspection with the flange straightening was $950 with shipping. The gasket/seal set and a new set of rod bearings is going to run me about $500. I just freshened up the cylinders and valves. I will reuse the main bearings,,,,they have only 100 hours on them. Bottom line is my engine will be practically new for about a $16,000 investment with the accessories. Thats less than half of Vans price. There are deals out there for builders on a budget such as myself that are willing to go this route. Granted I would have preferred to write a check to vans for a brand new set-up, but my bank account would not allow that. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dsyvert@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:31:29 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's announced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase the engine and prop. Vans (bundled) Vans Sun-N-Fun After 5/15 Engine $36,150 $39,550 Prop 6,835 6,835 (two blade blended) Shipping 500 (assume $500) Other? ?? Total $42,985 $ 46,885 Delta ~$4,000 I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. The three things I've heard others comment on about Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport are: 1) Longer warranty 2) Better customer service 3) More attention to balancing, etc. I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider it. My thoughts on overhauled are: 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be worth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few thousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she would say new rather than used (even if zero timed) I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some comments, considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / different? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered _____ l?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv" target=_blank>Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops! get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:38 PM PST US From: "richard sipp" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Another of the five authorized Lycoming kit engine builders is G & N Aircraft, Griffith, IN. www.gnaircraft.com They will custom build and also dyno test the finished product. I have had two engines built there and am a satisfied customer. Good folks. Dick Sipp RV10 N110DV ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Leffler To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:13 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Dave, I'm just a few months behind you in the build and have similar questions floating through my head. I've also got the added complexity of finding employment before I can order an engine. That still doesn't prevent me from being well prepared when the time comes. I believe going with a new engine is probably the best value, especially when you consider resale. Most of the folks that went with a rebuild ended up spending 80-90% of new and had a slew of headaches and/or issues that wouldn't have happened with a new engine. Clearly the Van's OEM engine is the least expensive way to get a new engine. I think there is also value in getting an engine from Barrett, AeroSport, Mattituck, or Lycoming Thunderbolt. I don't question the value these folks add. These other shops can also run your engine on their test stands longer. I know one shop that has given out their personal cell phone numbers. You can't beat that for customer service. Jeff Schans has stated that Lycoming tech reps will answer any questions that come to them, even on OEM engines. However, I have no firsthand knowledge of this at the moment. My situation is that the longer I'm unemployed, the less I'll have in my budget for an engine and may have to go with the low cost solution as oppose the best value solution (I'm leaning towards BPE). I'm clearly not in a situation to take advantage of this deal at the moment. I'm hoping that there will be something similar at OSH, although it will most likely cost more. The other variable you haven't mentioned is getting a certified engine from Van's. That would cut your phase I time down to 25 hours if you also got a certified prop combination. Although I don't think that's worth the extra expense. bob From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dsyvert@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:31 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's announced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase the engine and prop. Vans (bundled) Vans Sun-N-Fun After 5/15 Engine $36,150 $39,550 Prop 6,835 6,835 (two blade blended) Shipping 500 (assume $500) Other? ?? Total $42,985 $ 46,885 Delta ~$4,000 I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. The three things I've heard others comment on about Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport are: 1) Longer warranty 2) Better customer service 3) More attention to balancing, etc. I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider it. My thoughts on overhauled are: 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be worth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few thousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she would say new rather than used (even if zero timed) I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some comments, considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / different? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comht tp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:06 PM PST US From: "Dave Leikam" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations I just ordered XIO-540 and 2 blade Hartzell from Van's. I wanted a new engine just because I like new things with full warranty and no baggage. No unknowns in the equation. I talked to a guy who flies a Pitts with the same stock engine and he said it performs great. I decided on the Hartzell 2 blade prop for simplicity and easier maintenance and better top speed as well as less cost. I have heard that cylinder problems may occur in engines which have been ported and polished. I know there are many opinions on this, but it helped in my rationalization. "One topic that often comes up when talking about cylinders is "flow matching" or "porting and polishing". We were part of this movement years ago, and after monitoring the trends and test data gathered by third parties we have stopped this process. The results yielded a slight power/performance increase, however it also yielded a dramatic reduction in the cylinder life due to stress cracks which were introduced, unavoidably, in the porting and polishing process. My goal is to get the engine the last to TBO without hassle, and flow matching was something that inhibited the goal with minimal benefit." _________________ Kind Regards, Eric Barker Western Skyways http://www.westernskyways.com Engine shop engines have their advantages, but I just couldn't justify the extra cost for my mission. Good luck. Dave Leikam RV-10 #40496 N89DA (Reserved) Muskego, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: Dsyvert@aol.com To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:31 PM Subject: RV10-List: Engine purchase considerations Gang, My finishing kit should be arriving in a couple weeks, so I'm starting to think abut the engine. With Van's Sun-N-Fun special and Lycoming's announced price increase, it seems like now might be the time to purchase the engine and prop. Vans (bundled) Vans Sun-N-Fun After 5/15 Engine $36,150 $39,550 Prop 6,835 6,835 (two blade blended) Shipping 500 (assume $500) Other? ?? Total $42,985 $ 46,885 Delta ~$4,000 I do not want high compression engine, so no value added by some other shops. The three things I've heard others comment on about Lycoming shops such as Barrett and AeroSport are: 1) Longer warranty 2) Better customer service 3) More attention to balancing, etc. I'm not considering an overhauled engine, but maybe I should consider it. My thoughts on overhauled are: 1) The price savings maybe not be large (I'm thinking 10-25% of a certified), so with the Van's discounts it does not seem like it would be worth it. If I was saving $15,000 then it would be a different matter. 2) Re-sale vale for the cost of an RV-10 ~$150k, why save a few thousand dollars, that may reduce the resale value more. 3) Have not brought up with the better half, but I'm sure she would say new rather than used (even if zero timed) I'm not looking for a yes do it or don't do it. I looking for some comments, considerations and thoughts. Is anyone else thinking the same / different? Thanks Dave Syvertson 40625 Finishing Kit Ordered ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops! ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:21 PM PST US From: "Dave Leikam" Subject: RV10-List: final door trim Does anyone have a good method for final trimming of the doors to the cabin opening? I will just have at it soon, and just by gosh and by golly my way through it but I am hoping there is a better way. Plans just say "Trim to fit." I searched the archives and found no joy. Thanks. Dave Leikam RV-10 #40496 N89DA (Reserved) Muskego, WI ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:57 PM PST US From: "Dave Saylor" Subject: RE: RV10-List: fiberglass options The fiberglass in the -10 kits is about as good as it gets. Much better than previous kits. Most things install with very little adjustment necessary. Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 831-722-9141 831-750-0284 CL www.AirCraftersLLC.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric_Kallio Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:46 PM Subject: RV10-List: fiberglass options Posted this on the VAF site as well but want to catch some more of the group. For the finish kit has anyone gone with after market fiberglass? I am using Sam James cowl and plenum, but what about wheel pants and fairings? I have checked out Fairings etc, just trying to see what else is out there with better quality than the Vans fiberglass I have received in the previous kits. Eric Kallio Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242000#242000 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:30 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV10-List: final door trim Dave, This is a loaded question, And the andwer isn't a short one.I'm sure there are threads in the Archive. But if you want a good fit, after you 'trim to fit' so that the doors fit within the cabin cover opening, you will have to build up the 'gap' that results from getting them to fit. In short, I used duct tape to tape off either the door or the cabin cover (release agent) closed the door slathered on Flox/micro combination, let cure then sanded flush, Then reversed the process by taping off the other (door/cabin cover) It took me several iterations to get it decent. Here's a link to my door page, there are several entries midway that deal with the 'gap' http://deemsrv10.com/cabinwindowslogindex.html Then with all of that said, when you install you door seal, it will likely change the fit and you'll end up 'tweaking' the fit again. Deems Davis N519PJ 3.2 hours Phase 1 Dave Leikam wrote: > Does anyone have a good method for final trimming of the doors to the > cabin opening? I will just have at it soon, and just by gosh and by > golly my way through it but I am hoping there is a better way. Plans > just say "Trim to fit." I searched the archives and found no joy. > Thanks. > > Dave Leikam > RV-10 #40496 > N89DA (Reserved) > Muskego, WI > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:31 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: RV10-List: IAS for Pahse 1 without pants/fairings What IAS are people seeing during their flyoff without pants/fairings. Today @ 3500' running 25 x 25, I was indicating 134 kts. I know I've got some rigging problems (which I hope are now remedied) and have been dragging the airplane through the sky with a yaw. Just curious as to what I should be looking for once I get her rigged right and flying straight. Deems Davis N519PJ A whooping 3.2 hours and 3 flights ! BTW the RAM air is an INSTANT turbo, pull the valve open and MP pressure jumps 1.9" !!!!!!!!! WOOOOHOOOOO. What a surge!!!!!! I spoke with Rod Bower tonight and he's working on an enhancement and testing with Lycon, and he's confident we can get 3" + boost additional with the BPE cold air and forward facing servo :-) Who needs any stinking turbo !? ...... More to come ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:03 PM PST US From: "pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: final door trim Both Deems and Jim Berry had a method that reviewed last June: search - "RV10-List: Re: 45 degree angle on the door edge" to get you started. I will be interested to hear how Richard created a 1/8 inch rabbet, but in the mean time I can suggest an alternative. If you trim the door edge square so that it sits slightly inside the curved portion of the canopy edge, the door edge can serve as a mold for creating the rabbet. The inner edge of the door should be just tangent to the radius of the canopy edge. Once you have the windows installed, apply 2 layers of release tape(packing tape) to the edge of the doors. You should have all door locking hardware installed and adjusted to final fit. Close the doors and lock them in place. Trowel on a mix of flox/micro to the canopy top so it fills the gap between the door edge and the canopy. After it cures, open the doors and remove the packing tape. You will be left with a rabbet that exactly matches your door edge, and should require very little clean up. Also, I would suggest installing the door windows with the doors mounted on the canopy. I spent many hours slowly fitting the doors and many more after installing the seals. You may be in for a long journey compleing Section 45.. But if done slowly and right it will be well worth the effort. My advice to you is skip the Van's seals and get an aftermarket one. I didn't and it was a lot of trimming after a perfect fit, it's a solid fit now but it came with a costs of hours. Pascal From: Dave Leikam Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: RV10-List: final door trim Does anyone have a good method for final trimming of the doors to the cabin opening? I will just have at it soon, and just by gosh and by golly my way through it but I am hoping there is a better way. Plans just say "Trim to fit." I searched the archives and found no joy. Thanks. Dave Leikam RV-10 #40496 N89DA (Reserved) Muskego, WI ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:52 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: IAS for Pahse 1 without pants/fairings From: "McGANN, Ron" Great to be able to compare notes on this. We have just under 4hrs on the airframe. Fairings and pants were installed for last flight to address any balance issues. Some minor trim reqd for marginally heavy right wing, but a reasonable amount of rudder trim required. With pants, 25x25 gave us 168kts at 1500' Dirty stall speed is 45kts (confirmed) Jon Johanson is out flying as I write this email. He is absolutely stoked with the performance of this aircraft - as am I. Can't wait for my turn . . . Cheers, Ron VH-XRM Phase 1 - 3.9hrs -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2009 12:50 PM Subject: RV10-List: IAS for Pahse 1 without pants/fairings What IAS are people seeing during their flyoff without pants/fairings. Today @ 3500' running 25 x 25, I was indicating 134 kts. I know I've got some rigging problems (which I hope are now remedied) and have been dragging the airplane through the sky with a yaw. Just curious as to what I should be looking for once I get her rigged right and flying straight. Deems Davis N519PJ A whooping 3.2 hours and 3 flights ! BTW the RAM air is an INSTANT turbo, pull the valve open and MP pressure jumps 1.9" !!!!!!!!! WOOOOHOOOOO. What a surge!!!!!! I spoke with Rod Bower tonight and he's working on an enhancement and testing with Lycon, and he's confident we can get 3" + boost additional with the BPE cold air and forward facing servo :-) Who needs any stinking turbo !? ...... More to come "Warning: The information contained in this email and any attached files is confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to your computer." ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:48 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: fiberglass options From: "Lenny Iszak" Yep, especially the doors :) Sorry, couldn't resist. Lenny Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242020#242020 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:24 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Engine purchase considerations From: "Jim Berry" I went with an XIO-540 from Barrett. I chose them primarily for their reputation, but after going down there to watch the build up and run in of my engine I am even more impressed. Allen Barrett is absolutely meticulous when assembling an engine. He may be one of the few people more obsessive than myself. Even if you do not want any of the high performance goodies, there are 2 things you get from Barrett that clinched it for me: 1. They balance rotating parts to 1/10th the limits of Lycoming i.e. if Lyc balances a part to 10 grams, they balance to 1 gram. 2. The XIO comes with roller tappets. See the May Aviation Consumer for their take on this. As a bonus, if you are nice Allen might take you out for some of the best BBQ ribs ever. Rhonda is more into raw fish. Jim Berry 40482 N15JB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242022#242022 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.