Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:52 AM - HID light heads up (Geoff Bryant)
2. 07:29 AM - -3 degrees flaps (Strasnuts)
3. 08:15 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Rene Felker)
4. 08:39 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Seano)
5. 08:39 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
6. 08:54 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (David Maib)
7. 08:54 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Tim Olson)
8. 09:13 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Jesse Saint)
9. 09:13 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Seano)
10. 09:32 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Robin Marks)
11. 10:12 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Jeff Carpenter)
12. 10:26 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (John Cumins)
13. 10:35 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
14. 10:43 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (David McNeill)
15. 10:49 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Rene Felker)
16. 10:56 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Dave Saylor)
17. 11:14 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Fred Williams, M.D.)
18. 11:14 AM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Tim Olson)
19. 12:06 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (John Cumins)
20. 12:29 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Tim Olson)
21. 12:53 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Linn Walters)
22. 01:18 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (David Maib)
23. 01:24 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (johngoodman)
24. 01:54 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (James McGrew)
25. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: -3 degrees flaps (Jesse Saint)
26. 02:40 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Rob Kochman)
27. 04:43 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (John Cumins)
28. 04:48 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (John Cumins)
29. 04:49 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (John Cumins)
30. 05:19 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (David Maib)
31. 06:44 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
32. 07:05 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Jesse Saint)
33. 07:12 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (David McNeill)
34. 07:47 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Jim)
35. 07:51 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
36. 08:05 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Miller John)
37. 08:11 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Rene Felker)
38. 08:13 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
39. 08:21 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Tim Olson)
40. 08:33 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Jim)
41. 08:34 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
42. 08:37 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (David McNeill)
43. 10:01 PM - Re: -3 degrees flaps (Robin Marks)
Message 1
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| Subject: | HID light heads up |
HID lights are great for being seen but recently my left wing tip HID
ceramic block and filament broke away from the glass reflector and flopped
around the wing tip still live during a five hour X country scorching the
floor and through adjacent strobe wire rendering strobe power supply US.
Steve of PlaneLights/Rigidindustries has replaced bulbs and not aware of any
other instance. Possibly a one off manufacture fault or differential
expansion. They sure get hot. Intend fashioning a restraining system in case
of recurrence.and otherwise very happy with the plane. 125 hours operating
out of short country strip in last 8 months and grateful for all the Lists
knowledge.
Geoff Bryant VH XVR 40572 Adelaide South Australia
Message 2
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still trying to
get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up" position. My question
is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin? Right now when my flaps
hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are symmetrical but greater than
-3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones flying, what stops the flaps in the up
position? The spar or the flap motor?
Thanks
--------
Cust. #40936
A&P, ATP
typed CE-525(s), CE-500
RV-10 FUEL TANKS
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
Message 3
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Mine were over 3 degrees. I did not measure them when I built the wings.
Just put them up to the stop and lined up the aileron and wingtip. I had a
heavy left wing during my phase one, that is when I checked. Left and right
wing were a little different. So I fixed that, and it helped resolve my
heavy wing. But, in the end the heavy wing is more of a factor of fuel load
and single fat pilot...........as long as I use the left tank first when I
am solo.....no problem. I went out the other day with 24 in the right tank
and 30 in the left...solo and guess what....heavy left wing.......
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Strasnuts
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:29 AM
Subject: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still trying
to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up" position.
My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin? Right now when
my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are symmetrical but
greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones flying, what stops the
flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?
Thanks
--------
Cust. #40936
A&P, ATP
typed CE-525(s), CE-500
RV-10 FUEL TANKS
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
Thanks, I will leave the flaps at the stops and center the ailerons and
wingtips to that position.
Rene, I would still like to see your RV. I am out of OGD a lot in the
citation. My tail number is N458MT.
If you see me out there stop by. I always use Kemp Jet on the south side.
Sean
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
> Mine were over 3 degrees. I did not measure them when I built the wings.
> Just put them up to the stop and lined up the aileron and wingtip. I had
> a
> heavy left wing during my phase one, that is when I checked. Left and
> right
> wing were a little different. So I fixed that, and it helped resolve my
> heavy wing. But, in the end the heavy wing is more of a factor of fuel
> load
> and single fat pilot...........as long as I use the left tank first when I
> am solo.....no problem. I went out the other day with 24 in the right
> tank
> and 30 in the left...solo and guess what....heavy left wing.......
>
> Rene' Felker
> RV-10 N423CF Flying
> 801-721-6080
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Strasnuts
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:29 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
> trying
> to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up" position.
> My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin? Right now when
> my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are symmetrical but
> greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones flying, what stops
> the
> flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> Cust. #40936
> A&P, ATP
> typed CE-525(s), CE-500
> RV-10 FUEL TANKS
> N801VR reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Alignment instructions are in section 44 of the plans (page 44-5).
Without the flaps attached you position the flap motor to the fully up
(reflex) position. Then you position the flaps in the fully up position
defined as when they stop against the rear wing spar doubler. You then
attach the pushrods connecting the flaps.
So, real answer is that the flap motor limit is aligned to match up with
the flap hitting the rear wing spar doubler. Wingtips can be a
challenge - it's actually easier to wait until the wings are attached to
the plane, flaps are attached and aligned. Then align the ailerons to
flaps and clamp in place - at this point and finally make any
adjustments to the wingtips. Make sure when you do this that you have
the elevators in neutral alignment. There's a slight (1/4" or so)
movement of the ailerons as you move the elevators from full up through
full down due to the geometry of the aileron to stick attach linkage.
Bob
N442PM (flying)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Strasnuts
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:29 AM
Subject: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up"
position. My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin?
Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are
symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones
flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap
motor?
Thanks
--------
Cust. #40936
A&P, ATP
typed CE-525(s), CE-500
RV-10 FUEL TANKS
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
The -3 degrees is relative to the chord of the wing and is nothing
you can adjust. Follow the instructions and do what you are doing.
Align the ailerons with the flaps, with the flaps up to the stops,
and then align the wingtips with the ailerons. As I recall, the
important part was getting someone to help push the wingtip securely
into position and hold it while drilling.
exactly $.02 worth.
David Maib
40559
On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Strasnuts wrote:
I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the
"up" position. My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top
skin? Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the
flaps are symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For
the ones flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or
the flap motor?
Thanks
--------
Cust. #40936
A&P, ATP
typed CE-525(s), CE-500
RV-10 FUEL TANKS
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
The spar stops the flaps, but, you then need to adjust the
motor so it shuts off immediately before the flap hits the
spar so the motor doesn't keep running.
That should give you somewhere around -3 degrees.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Strasnuts wrote:
>
> I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
> trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the
> "up" position. My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top
> skin? Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the
> flaps are symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For
> the ones flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or
> the flap motor?
>
> Thanks
>
> -------- Cust. #40936 A&P, ATP typed CE-525(s), CE-500 RV-10 FUEL
> TANKS N801VR reserved
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
I second the recommendation to fit the wingtips when the wings are on
the plane. This way full up on the flaps will be against the rear
spar doubler and the bottom skin on the flap should be flush with the
bottom skin on the fuselage. Then you can "clamp" the aileron flush
with the flap and fit the wingtip to the aileron. It is also very
important, as Bob mentioned, to have the elevator installed and in
neutral.
This brings up another question. Has anybody else been installing
their wingtips with hinges instead of the screws? I remember it was
in an RVAtor a couple of years ago. It really works well and makes
the wingtip a TON easier to take off and put back on.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:29 AM, Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> >
>
> Alignment instructions are in section 44 of the plans (page 44-5).
> Without the flaps attached you position the flap motor to the fully up
> (reflex) position. Then you position the flaps in the fully up
> position
> defined as when they stop against the rear wing spar doubler. You
> then
> attach the pushrods connecting the flaps.
>
> So, real answer is that the flap motor limit is aligned to match up
> with
> the flap hitting the rear wing spar doubler. Wingtips can be a
> challenge - it's actually easier to wait until the wings are
> attached to
> the plane, flaps are attached and aligned. Then align the ailerons to
> flaps and clamp in place - at this point and finally make any
> adjustments to the wingtips. Make sure when you do this that you have
> the elevators in neutral alignment. There's a slight (1/4" or so)
> movement of the ailerons as you move the elevators from full up
> through
> full down due to the geometry of the aileron to stick attach linkage.
>
> Bob
> N442PM (flying)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Strasnuts
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:29 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
> trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up"
> position. My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin?
> Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps
> are
> symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones
> flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap
> motor?
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> Cust. #40936
> A&P, ATP
> typed CE-525(s), CE-500
> RV-10 FUEL TANKS
> N801VR reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
Thanks everyone. A unanimous answer!!
I get to start on my fuselage today! :))))))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
> The spar stops the flaps, but, you then need to adjust the
> motor so it shuts off immediately before the flap hits the
> spar so the motor doesn't keep running.
> That should give you somewhere around -3 degrees.
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> Strasnuts wrote:
>>
>> I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
>> trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the
>> "up" position. My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top
>> skin? Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the
>> flaps are symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For
>> the ones flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or
>> the flap motor?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> -------- Cust. #40936 A&P, ATP typed CE-525(s), CE-500 RV-10 FUEL
>> TANKS N801VR reserved
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
the plane flies faster.
Robin
Do Not Archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
> the plane flies faster.
>
> Robin
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
I second that completely!!!!
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
> the plane flies faster.
>
> Robin
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Another tidbit - when I flew with Alex D. last year for transition
training he demonstrated that the takeoff roll will increase by a couple
hundred feet if you've got the flaps in reflex instead of 0 degrees.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:25 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I second that completely!!!!
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
> the plane flies faster.
>
> Robin
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why
would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up
shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing
angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for a
given power setting.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I second that completely!!!!
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
> the plane flies faster.
>
> Robin
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
I am not out there much these days, but.......Friday and Saturday morning I
will be out there giving flights to people I have promised.....any chance
you will be around then?
I am in hanger S-525, a couple of rows south of the tower...
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Seano
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Thanks, I will leave the flaps at the stops and center the ailerons and
wingtips to that position.
Rene, I would still like to see your RV. I am out of OGD a lot in the
citation. My tail number is N458MT.
If you see me out there stop by. I always use Kemp Jet on the south side.
Sean
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
> Mine were over 3 degrees. I did not measure them when I built the wings.
> Just put them up to the stop and lined up the aileron and wingtip. I had
> a
> heavy left wing during my phase one, that is when I checked. Left and
> right
> wing were a little different. So I fixed that, and it helped resolve my
> heavy wing. But, in the end the heavy wing is more of a factor of fuel
> load
> and single fat pilot...........as long as I use the left tank first when I
> am solo.....no problem. I went out the other day with 24 in the right
> tank
> and 30 in the left...solo and guess what....heavy left wing.......
>
> Rene' Felker
> RV-10 N423CF Flying
> 801-721-6080
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Strasnuts
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:29 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
> trying
> to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up" position.
> My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin? Right now when
> my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are symmetrical but
> greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones flying, what stops
> the
> flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> Cust. #40936
> A&P, ATP
> typed CE-525(s), CE-500
> RV-10 FUEL TANKS
> N801VR reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
You shouldn't stall the flap motor. It should get to the end of its travel
and keep running (some shut off with a position switch, but the concept is
the same). The bottom of the flaps should be even with the belly when they
are all the way up.
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Strasnuts <sean@braunandco.com> wrote:
>
> I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
> trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up"
> position. My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin? Right
> now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are
> symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones flying,
> what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?
>
--
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
Alex had me use about 5 deg down for takeoff. Works well. You still
have to remember to put them back up. :-)
Dr Fred.
Off to Denver in am.
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>
> Another tidbit - when I flew with Alex D. last year for transition
> training he demonstrated that the takeoff roll will increase by a couple
> hundred feet if you've got the flaps in reflex instead of 0 degrees.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:25 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> I second that completely!!!!
>
> John G. Cumins
> President
>
> JC'S Interactive Systems
> 2499 B1 Martin Rd
> Fairfield Ca 94533
> 707-425-7100
> 707-425-7576 Fax
>
> Your Total Technology Solution Provider
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Carpenter
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
>
>>
>> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
>> the plane flies faster.
>>
>> Robin
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
It can help when at high altitudes to keep your
climb rate better, if you maintain zero degrees.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
David McNeill wrote:
>
> The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why
> would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up
> shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing
> angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for a
> given power setting.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:25 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> I second that completely!!!!
>
> John G. Cumins
> President
>
> JC'S Interactive Systems
> 2499 B1 Martin Rd
> Fairfield Ca 94533
> 707-425-7100
> 707-425-7576 Fax
>
> Your Total Technology Solution Provider
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
>>
>> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
>> the plane flies faster.
>>
>> Robin
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Ok here comes my 2 cents worth. Being a retired Flight engineer, we have to
educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees. As it has
been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.
If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the
trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position. With
the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3
degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap.
So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as
designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference. Thus higher
lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.
The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the
aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift
at slower speeds. Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree position.
But faster cruise speed.
The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.
All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area
making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the take
off flaps position. This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it is
about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing area-
lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of
flap movement.
I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if
they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.
Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,
And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.
John Cumins
40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
It can help when at high altitudes to keep your
climb rate better, if you maintain zero degrees.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
David McNeill wrote:
>
> The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why
> would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up
> shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing
> angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for
a
> given power setting.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:25 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> I second that completely!!!!
>
> John G. Cumins
> President
>
> JC'S Interactive Systems
> 2499 B1 Martin Rd
> Fairfield Ca 94533
> 707-425-7100
> 707-425-7576 Fax
>
> Your Total Technology Solution Provider
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
>>
>> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
>> the plane flies faster.
>>
>> Robin
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
I'm not sure if you're saying that I'm wrong, or not. :)
When I said it helps you keep a good climb rate, I was
intending to mean that you get a tiny bit more lift
out of the zero degree setting vs. the -3 degree setting.
So if you're up high over 10,000' and having very
slow climb rates, you can get a small bump in climb
rate by going back to zero. Now, you could also
get a better climb rate at lower altitudes, but, the -10
generally climbs so well that it may be just as
practical to "set it and forget it" once you are climbing
out.
Is that correct from your perspective as a Flight Engineer,
or not?
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
John Cumins wrote:
>
> Ok here comes my 2 cents worth. Being a retired Flight engineer, we have to
> educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees. As it has
> been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.
>
> If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the
> trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position. With
> the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3
> degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap.
>
> So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as
> designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference. Thus higher
> lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.
> The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the
> aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift
> at slower speeds. Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree position.
> But faster cruise speed.
>
> The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.
> All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area
> making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the take
> off flaps position. This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it is
> about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing area-
> lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of
> flap movement.
>
> I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if
> they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.
>
> Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,
>
> And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.
>
>
> John Cumins
> 40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 11:12 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> It can help when at high altitudes to keep your
> climb rate better, if you maintain zero degrees.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>
>
>
> David McNeill wrote:
>>
>> The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why
>> would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up
>> shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing
>> angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for
> a
>> given power setting.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:25 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>
>>
>> I second that completely!!!!
>>
>> John G. Cumins
>> President
>>
>> JC'S Interactive Systems
>> 2499 B1 Martin Rd
>> Fairfield Ca 94533
>> 707-425-7100
>> 707-425-7576 Fax
>>
>> Your Total Technology Solution Provider
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>
>>
>> It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
>>> the plane flies faster.
>>>
>>> Robin
>>> Do Not Archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
Why not keep it on the list so the casual reader might learn something
too??? If not, add me to your 'flap' list!!
Linn
John Cumins wrote:
SNIP
>
> I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if
> they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.
>
> Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,
>
> And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.
>
>
> John Cumins
> 40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off.
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
I installed my flaps, ailerons, and wingtips with the wings in the
cradle, versus mounted on the airplane. It was pretty simple and my
wife and I did it without any problems. Everything came out lined up
nicely on our airplane. We put the flaps all the way up, clamped the
ailerons to the flaps, and then carefully fit and drilled the
wingtips. I remember some threads from a couple of years ago
discussing the importance of having someone hold the wingtip in
position while carefully drilling the holes. I seem to remember that
it was pretty important to make sure the tip was pushed fully forward
into the leading edge of the wing. The caution about making sure the
elevator is neutral, if installing after the controls are hooked up,
is an important one. While putting the flight controls back on after
paint, we did some real head scratching trying to figure out why the
flap/aileron alignment was messed up. Turned out to be the elevator
in the full down position.
another $.02 worth
David Maib
40559
On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Seano wrote:
Thanks, I will leave the flaps at the stops and center the ailerons
and wingtips to that position.
Rene, I would still like to see your RV. I am out of OGD a lot in
the citation. My tail number is N458MT.
If you see me out there stop by. I always use Kemp Jet on the south
side.
Sean
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
> Mine were over 3 degrees. I did not measure them when I built the
> wings.
> Just put them up to the stop and lined up the aileron and wingtip.
> I had a
> heavy left wing during my phase one, that is when I checked. Left
> and right
> wing were a little different. So I fixed that, and it helped
> resolve my
> heavy wing. But, in the end the heavy wing is more of a factor of
> fuel load
> and single fat pilot...........as long as I use the left tank first
> when I
> am solo.....no problem. I went out the other day with 24 in the
> right tank
> and 30 in the left...solo and guess what....heavy left wing.......
>
> Rene' Felker
> RV-10 N423CF Flying
> 801-721-6080
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Strasnuts
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:29 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am
> still trying
> to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up"
> position.
> My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin? Right
> now when
> my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are
> symmetrical but
> greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones flying, what
> stops the
> flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> Cust. #40936
> A&P, ATP
> typed CE-525(s), CE-500
> RV-10 FUEL TANKS
> N801VR reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
>
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
> This brings up another question. Has anybody else been installing
> their wingtips with hinges instead of the screws? I remember it was
> in an RVAtor a couple of years ago. It really works well and makes
> the wingtip a TON easier to take off and put back on.
Jesse,
I remember seeing that. You basically use piano hinge just like most folks do on
the cowling.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251200#251200
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
Hi Tim,
I'll jump in here to muddy up the waters... and Linn this is probably why
John suggested to take this off list. :)
To answer your question, I'll say, for cruise climb in general, you'll
typically be better off at the -3 degree setting when climbing at and above
10,000'.
It isn't the lift available for the wing that is important, it's really the
lift/drag (L/D) that you want to minimize to increase your rate of climb.
The lift doesn't change: if your airplane weighs 2500 lbs then you need 2500
lbs of lift for 1 g unaccelerated flight. So that means that you want to
minimize the drag. Cruising or cruise/climbing at 160 KTAS (137.5 KIAS) at
10,000' with a 2500 lb RV-10 requires a coefficient of lift (cl) of 0.276. I
would guess the -3 flapped wing has a maximum cl of around 1.0 and the 0
degree around 1.1. So you see that 0.276 is a low cl, either the wing with 0
flap or -3 degree flaps will have no problem generating a that cl. However,
most likely, the -3 degree flapped wing will produce that 0.276 cl with a
lower coefficient of drag (cd) than the 0 degree wing would. That means a
higher L/D, and less drag on the aircraft which results in more power
available for climb and, thus, a higher rate of climb.
This still is true if you were to slow to, say 122 KTAS (105 KIAS) for the
climb. The cl required there is still only 0.45. It isn't until you start to
slow down enough to approach the max cl (i.e. stall) of the -3 flapped
airfoil that it may be beneficial to lower the flaps to some other setting
(this may also occur at extremely high altitudes).
-Jim
N312JE
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if you're saying that I'm wrong, or not. :)
>
> When I said it helps you keep a good climb rate, I was
> intending to mean that you get a tiny bit more lift
> out of the zero degree setting vs. the -3 degree setting.
> So if you're up high over 10,000' and having very
> slow climb rates, you can get a small bump in climb
> rate by going back to zero. Now, you could also
> get a better climb rate at lower altitudes, but, the -10
> generally climbs so well that it may be just as
> practical to "set it and forget it" once you are climbing
> out.
>
> Is that correct from your perspective as a Flight Engineer,
> or not?
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>
>
> John Cumins wrote:
>
>>
>> Ok here comes my 2 cents worth. Being a retired Flight engineer, we have
>> to
>> educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees. As it has
>> been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.
>>
>> If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the
>> trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position. With
>> the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3
>> degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap.
>> So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as
>> designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference. Thus higher
>> lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.
>> The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the
>> aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift
>> at slower speeds. Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree
>> position.
>> But faster cruise speed.
>> The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.
>> All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area
>> making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the
>> take
>> off flaps position. This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it
>> is
>> about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing
>> area-
>> lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of
>> flap movement.
>>
>> I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if
>> they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.
>>
>> Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,
>> And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.
>>
>>
>> John Cumins
>> 40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 11:12 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>
>>
>> It can help when at high altitudes to keep your
>> climb rate better, if you maintain zero degrees.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>>
>>
>>
>> David McNeill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why
>>> would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up
>>> shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing
>>> angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for
>>>
>> a
>>
>>> given power setting.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:25 AM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>>
>>>
>>> I second that completely!!!!
>>>
>>> John G. Cumins
>>> President
>>>
>>> JC'S Interactive Systems
>>> 2499 B1 Martin Rd
>>> Fairfield Ca 94533
>>> 707-425-7100
>>> 707-425-7576 Fax
>>>
>>> Your Total Technology Solution Provider
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
>>> Carpenter
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>>
>>>
>>> It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
>>>> the plane flies faster.
>>>>
>>>> Robin
>>>> Do Not Archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
That's right, although we use the 3 forward screws on top and bottom
because the hinge doesn't bend as well with the sharper curve. Then
we leave the pins long and use a bracket on the little metal rib on
the trailing edge of the wingtip to hold the pins in place. The pins
can be bent and a hinge eyelet used to hold them in place, or you can
make a little metal piece about 1/8 - 3/16 thick and drill a hole for
the hinge pin to slide in, then the bracket can be screwed onto the
rib. This way you can easily put a drill on the hinge pin to spin it
while sliding it in, which is more of a big deal initially until any
burs or sharp edges inside the hinge eyelets are removed by the pin.
A little grease doesn't hurt either. We use the wingtip itself (the
part that would receive the nutplates, which will be removed if using
the hinge method) as a shim for the inboard half of the hinge. The
trick is getting all of the rivet holed drilled in the wingtip before
cutting the "shim" off, then making the cut so the material removed
would be just inboard of the end of the wing skin, so there is no gap
left. If done carefully, it can give a very nice tight and clean fit
between the wingtip and the wing skin.
The nicest part of this method, IMHO, is the wingtips can be removed
or reinstalled in about 3 minutes, versus about 30 minutes with all of
the screws. Taking it off the normal way is not that bad if using a
drill, but putting it on is a pain because the wingtip is flexible
enough that it can be hard to get it close enough to the skin to get
the screws to grab all the way around.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jul 2, 2009, at 3:21 PM, johngoodman wrote:
> >
>
>
>> This brings up another question. Has anybody else been installing
>> their wingtips with hinges instead of the screws? I remember it was
>> in an RVAtor a couple of years ago. It really works well and makes
>> the wingtip a TON easier to take off and put back on.
>
>
> Jesse,
> I remember seeing that. You basically use piano hinge just like most
> folks do on the cowling.
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.
> N711JG reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251200#251200
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
I still don't understand how the wingtips can be "aligned." When I pushed
mine all the way forward, it wasn't possible to twist them up or down--they
fit in snugly.
-Rob
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:16 PM, David Maib <dmaib@mac.com> wrote:
>
> I installed my flaps, ailerons, and wingtips with the wings in the cradle,
> versus mounted on the airplane. It was pretty simple and my wife and I did
> it without any problems. Everything came out lined up nicely on our
> airplane. We put the flaps all the way up, clamped the ailerons to the
> flaps, and then carefully fit and drilled the wingtips. I remember some
> threads from a couple of years ago discussing the importance of having
> someone hold the wingtip in position while carefully drilling the holes. I
> seem to remember that it was pretty important to make sure the tip was
> pushed fully forward into the leading edge of the wing. The caution about
> making sure the elevator is neutral, if installing after the controls are
> hooked up, is an important one. While putting the flight controls back on
> after paint, we did some real head scratching trying to figure out why the
> flap/aileron alignment was messed up. Turned out to be the elevator in the
> full down position.
>
> another $.02 worth
>
> David Maib
> 40559
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Seano wrote:
>
>
> Thanks, I will leave the flaps at the stops and center the ailerons and
> wingtips to that position.
>
>
> Rene, I would still like to see your RV. I am out of OGD a lot in the
> citation. My tail number is N458MT.
> If you see me out there stop by. I always use Kemp Jet on the south side.
>
> Sean
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:13 AM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
>>
>> Mine were over 3 degrees. I did not measure them when I built the wings.
>> Just put them up to the stop and lined up the aileron and wingtip. I had
>> a
>> heavy left wing during my phase one, that is when I checked. Left and
>> right
>> wing were a little different. So I fixed that, and it helped resolve my
>> heavy wing. But, in the end the heavy wing is more of a factor of fuel
>> load
>> and single fat pilot...........as long as I use the left tank first when I
>> am solo.....no problem. I went out the other day with 24 in the right
>> tank
>> and 30 in the left...solo and guess what....heavy left wing.......
>>
>> Rene' Felker
>> RV-10 N423CF Flying
>> 801-721-6080
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Strasnuts
>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:29 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>
>>
>> I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
>> trying
>> to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up" position.
>> My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin? Right now when
>> my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are symmetrical but
>> greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones flying, what stops
>> the
>> flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> --------
>> Cust. #40936
>> A&P, ATP
>> typed CE-525(s), CE-500
>> RV-10 FUEL TANKS
>> N801VR reserved
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 27
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Jim
Wow I was not going to get into that much detail but I do agree with you.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James McGrew
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Hi Tim,
I'll jump in here to muddy up the waters... and Linn this is probably why
John suggested to take this off list. :)
To answer your question, I'll say, for cruise climb in general, you'll
typically be better off at the -3 degree setting when climbing at and above
10,000'.
It isn't the lift available for the wing that is important, it's really the
lift/drag (L/D) that you want to minimize to increase your rate of climb.
The lift doesn't change: if your airplane weighs 2500 lbs then you need 2500
lbs of lift for 1 g unaccelerated flight. So that means that you want to
minimize the drag. Cruising or cruise/climbing at 160 KTAS (137.5 KIAS) at
10,000' with a 2500 lb RV-10 requires a coefficient of lift (cl) of 0.276. I
would guess the -3 flapped wing has a maximum cl of around 1.0 and the 0
degree around 1.1. So you see that 0.276 is a low cl, either the wing with 0
flap or -3 degree flaps will have no problem generating a that cl. However,
most likely, the -3 degree flapped wing will produce that 0.276 cl with a
lower coefficient of drag (cd) than the 0 degree wing would. That means a
higher L/D, and less drag on the aircraft which results in more power
available for climb and, thus, a higher rate of climb.
This still is true if you were to slow to, say 122 KTAS (105 KIAS) for the
climb. The cl required there is still only 0.45. It isn't until you start to
slow down enough to approach the max cl (i.e. stall) of the -3 flapped
airfoil that it may be beneficial to lower the flaps to some other setting
(this may also occur at extremely high altitudes).
-Jim
N312JE
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
I'm not sure if you're saying that I'm wrong, or not. :)
When I said it helps you keep a good climb rate, I was
intending to mean that you get a tiny bit more lift
out of the zero degree setting vs. the -3 degree setting.
So if you're up high over 10,000' and having very
slow climb rates, you can get a small bump in climb
rate by going back to zero. Now, you could also
get a better climb rate at lower altitudes, but, the -10
generally climbs so well that it may be just as
practical to "set it and forget it" once you are climbing
out.
Is that correct from your perspective as a Flight Engineer,
or not?
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
John Cumins wrote:
Ok here comes my 2 cents worth. Being a retired Flight engineer, we have to
educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees. As it has
been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.
If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the
trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position. With
the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3
degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap.
So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as
designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference. Thus higher
lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.
The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the
aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift
at slower speeds. Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree position.
But faster cruise speed.
The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.
All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area
making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the take
off flaps position. This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it is
about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing area-
lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of
flap movement.
I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if
they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.
Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,
And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.
John Cumins
40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
It can help when at high altitudes to keep your
climb rate better, if you maintain zero degrees.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
David McNeill wrote:
The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why
would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up
shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing
angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for
a
given power setting.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I second that completely!!!!
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
the plane flies faster.
Robin
Do Not Archive
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 28
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Tim
You are totally right. The 0 Degree position has more lift then the -3
degree setting.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I'm not sure if you're saying that I'm wrong, or not. :)
When I said it helps you keep a good climb rate, I was
intending to mean that you get a tiny bit more lift
out of the zero degree setting vs. the -3 degree setting.
So if you're up high over 10,000' and having very
slow climb rates, you can get a small bump in climb
rate by going back to zero. Now, you could also
get a better climb rate at lower altitudes, but, the -10
generally climbs so well that it may be just as
practical to "set it and forget it" once you are climbing
out.
Is that correct from your perspective as a Flight Engineer,
or not?
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
John Cumins wrote:
>
> Ok here comes my 2 cents worth. Being a retired Flight engineer, we have
to
> educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees. As it has
> been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.
>
> If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the
> trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position. With
> the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3
> degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap.
>
> So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as
> designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference. Thus higher
> lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.
> The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the
> aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift
> at slower speeds. Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree
position.
> But faster cruise speed.
>
> The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.
> All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area
> making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the
take
> off flaps position. This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it
is
> about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing
area-
> lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of
> flap movement.
>
> I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if
> they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.
>
> Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,
>
> And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.
>
>
> John Cumins
> 40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 11:12 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
> It can help when at high altitudes to keep your
> climb rate better, if you maintain zero degrees.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>
>
> David McNeill wrote:
>>
>> The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why
>> would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up
>> shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing
>> angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for
> a
>> given power setting.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:25 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>
>>
>> I second that completely!!!!
>>
>> John G. Cumins
>> President
>>
>> JC'S Interactive Systems
>> 2499 B1 Martin Rd
>> Fairfield Ca 94533
>> 707-425-7100
>> 707-425-7576 Fax
>>
>> Your Total Technology Solution Provider
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:59 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>
>>
>> It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight
>>> the plane flies faster.
>>>
>>> Robin
>>> Do Not Archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
I will be glad to keep them on the list.
John Cumins
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Why not keep it on the list so the casual reader might learn something
too??? If not, add me to your 'flap' list!!
Linn
John Cumins wrote:
SNIP
>
> I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if
> they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.
>
> Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,
>
> And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.
>
>
> John Cumins
> 40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off.
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
I think maybe some people, early on, match drilled the holes in the
wingtip without insuring that the wingtip was solidly in position, as
you describe. It would be a bit difficult to hold the wingtip
perfectly in position to drill without an extra set of hands. I
looked back at some construction photo's and realized that we drilled
the wingtips on a table instead of in the cradle. We used a piece of
3/4 aluminum angle to clamp the aileron to the flap. Here are a
couple of photo's.
=EF=BC=EF=BC
David Maib
40559
On Jul 2, 2009, at 5:39 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:
I still don't understand how the wingtips can be "aligned." When I
pushed mine all the way forward, it wasn't possible to twist them up
or down--they fit in snugly.
-Rob
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:16 PM, David Maib <dmaib@mac.com> wrote:
I installed my flaps, ailerons, and wingtips with the wings in the
cradle, versus mounted on the airplane. It was pretty simple and my
wife and I did it without any problems. Everything came out lined up
nicely on our airplane. We put the flaps all the way up, clamped the
ailerons to the flaps, and then carefully fit and drilled the
wingtips. I remember some threads from a couple of years ago
discussing the importance of having someone hold the wingtip in
position while carefully drilling the holes. I seem to remember that
it was pretty important to make sure the tip was pushed fully forward
into the leading edge of the wing. The caution about making sure the
elevator is neutral, if installing after the controls are hooked up,
is an important one. While putting the flight controls back on after
paint, we did some real head scratching trying to figure out why the
flap/aileron alignment was messed up. Turned out to be the elevator
in the full down position.
another $.02 worth
David Maib
40559
On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Seano wrote:
Thanks, I will leave the flaps at the stops and center the ailerons
and wingtips to that position.
Rene, I would still like to see your RV. I am out of OGD a lot in
the citation. My tail number is N458MT.
If you see me out there stop by. I always use Kemp Jet on the south
side.
Sean
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Mine were over 3 degrees. I did not measure them when I built the
wings.
Just put them up to the stop and lined up the aileron and wingtip. I
had a
heavy left wing during my phase one, that is when I checked. Left
and right
wing were a little different. So I fixed that, and it helped resolve my
heavy wing. But, in the end the heavy wing is more of a factor of
fuel load
and single fat pilot...........as long as I use the left tank first
when I
am solo.....no problem. I went out the other day with 24 in the
right tank
and 30 in the left...solo and guess what....heavy left wing.......
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Strasnuts
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:29 AM
Subject: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position. I am still
trying
to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up"
position.
My question is: What is the -3 degree from? The top skin? Right now
when
my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are symmetrical but
greater than -3 degrees, more like -4. For the ones flying, what
stops the
flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?
Thanks
--------
Cust. #40936
A&P, ATP
typed CE-525(s), CE-500
RV-10 FUEL TANKS
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251125#251125
==================
& Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"
target="_blank">http://===
http://forums.mle, List Admin.
====
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are installed.....what's the best
flap position to keep the airplane from floating 1000 foot past the numbers??
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
I still haven't figured this one out. What speed do you fly on short
final?
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:40 PM, ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote:
>
> Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are
> installed.....what's the best flap position to keep the airplane
> from floating 1000 foot past the numbers??
>
> Rick Sked
> N246RS
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
>
> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:17:48
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Speed control.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are installed.....what's the
best flap position to keep the airplane from floating 1000 foot past the
numbers??
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
We had a Navy pilot provide CAP folk with a method for landing on short
runways.
during cruise flight, slow down, lower the flaps and
determine what the indicated stall speed was (Just nibble at it).
Round the number up to the nearest 5 knots and then add 10%.
So
if you saw 58 knots stall, round up to 60, add 10% to get 66. Fly
the approach at that speed.
When we rounded out over the
numbers the bird was done flying and did not float. It was easy to
land on 2000 foot runways.
Try this with the -10. You
will get some numbers that will amaze you.
I don't normally fly
like this, but to see it work was really cool.
What I found for
my -10 was I could fly 65 knot finals and make the first turnoff without
much braking.
What I normally fly is 82 on the approach,
78 over the end of the runway and I get stall warning about 5 feet up and
touchdown soon after.
Your airplane may be different.
All speeds in knots.
Jim C
N312F
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
I get that David.. Speeds are right on just seems to carry further than. I thought.....
------Original Message------
From: David McNeill
Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: Rv
Sent: Jul 2, 2009 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Speed control.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are installed.....what's the
best flap position to keep the airplane from floating 1000 foot past the
numbers??
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
I routinely cross the fence around 70 kts. If its gusty, add 5.
Cross check with my AOA, which is always better than airspeed.....
grumpy
N184JM
On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> I still haven't figured this one out. What speed do you fly on
> short final?
>
> do not archive
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:40 PM, ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are
>> installed.....what's the best flap position to keep the airplane
>> from floating 1000 foot past the numbers??
>>
>> Rick Sked
>> N246RS
>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
>>
>> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:17:48
>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Rick, what speeds are you flying. I get the best results when I fly mid
70's on final and 70 or below over the threshold. I am at 4500 feet so
ground speed is a little higher. If I come in any faster than that, it will
float. But, I normally do fly faster than that......I like the extra speed
margin......
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I get that David.. Speeds are right on just seems to carry further than. I
thought.....
------Original Message------
From: David McNeill
Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: Rv
Sent: Jul 2, 2009 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Speed control.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are installed.....what's the
best flap position to keep the airplane from floating 1000 foot past the
numbers??
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
R3JlYXQgaW5mby4uLnRoZSBBT0EgbWFrZXMgdGhpcyBwcmV0dHkgZWFzeS4uLi5waXRjaCB1cCwg
a2VlcCB0aGUgUlBNcyB1cCwgdGhyb3R0bGUgdG8gY29udHJvbCBkZWNlbnQgd2l0aCBwb3NpdGl2
ZSBwaXRjaCBoZWxkIGp1c3QgbmVlZCB0byBjYWxsIHRoZSBiYWxsLi4uLnNob3J0IGZpZWxkICJz
dHlsZSIgc2VlbXMgdGhlIGJlc3QgYXBwcm9hY2guLi42NSBrbm90cyBvbiBmaW5hbCBpcyBvdXIg
d29ya2luZyBiZXN0IG51bWJlci4uLi5idXQgdGhlbiBhZ2FpbiB0aGUgREEgaGFzIGJlZW4gYmV0
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VCZUDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiAiSmltIiA8amltQENvbWJz
Rml2ZS5Db20+DQoNCkRhdGU6IFRodSwgMiBKdWwgMjAwOSAyMjo0NToyNyANClRvOiA8cnYxMC1s
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aW5kaWNhdGVkIHN0YWxsIHNwZWVkIHdhcyAoSnVzdCBuaWJibGUgYXQgaXQpLqANClJvdW5kIHRo
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bm9mZiB3aXRob3V0DQptdWNoIGJyYWtpbmcuoCANCg0KV2hhdCBJIG5vcm1hbGx5IGZseSBpcyA4
MiBvbiB0aGUgYXBwcm9hY2gsDQo3OCBvdmVyIHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgdGhlIHJ1bndheSBhbmQgSSBn
ZXQgc3RhbGwgd2FybmluZyBhYm91dCA1IGZlZXQgdXAgYW5kDQp0b3VjaGRvd24gc29vbiBhZnRl
ci6gIA0KDQpZb3VyIGFpcnBsYW5lIG1heSBiZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQuDQoNCkFsbCBzcGVlZHMgaW4g
a25vdHMuDQoNCkppbSBDDQpOMzEyRg0KDQo
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
Same here but no AOA. 65 into the short grass strips.
Tim
On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I routinely cross the fence around 70 kts. If its gusty, add 5.
>
> Cross check with my AOA, which is always better than airspeed.....
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:
>
>> <jesse@saintaviation.com>
>>
>> I still haven't figured this one out. What speed do you fly on
>> short final?
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>> jesse@saintaviation.com
>> Cell: 352-427-0285
>> Fax: 815-377-3694
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:40 PM, ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are
>>> installed.....what's the best flap position to keep the airplane
>>> from floating 1000 foot past the numbers??
>>>
>>> Rick Sked
>>> N246RS
>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
>>>
>>> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:17:48
>>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
The good part about the navy based process is that it took into account
the current weight of the aircraft. It also uses the
"Indicated" stall speed which took into account the pitot system
and indicators. A single pilot might get a low stall speed while a
gross weight airplane would yield a higher number. It was still fun
to do the math and then fly the approach.
The -10 is a fun
airplane to fly and I know I can slow it down for a short runway.
Jim C
N312F - 80 hours (Still need to get it painted!)
Do Not Archive
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Great info...the AOA makes this pretty easy....pitch up, keep the
RPMs up,
throttle to control decent with positive pitch held just
need to call the
ball....short field "style" seems the best
approach...65 knots on final is
our working best number....but then
again the DA has been between 4500 to
5300.... go figure
Sent
via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jim" <jim@CombsFive.Com>
Jul 2009 22:45:27
Subject:
Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
We had a Navy
pilot provide CAP folk with a method for landing on short
runways.
during cruise flight, slow down, lower the flaps and determine
what the indicated stall speed was (Just nibble at it). Round the
number up to the nearest 5 knots and then add 10%.
So if you
saw 58 knots stall, round up to 60, add 10% to get 66. Fly the
approach at that speed.
When we rounded out over the numbers
the bird was done flying and did not float. It was easy to land on
2000 foot runways.
Try this with the -10. You will get
some numbers that will amaze you.
I don't normally fly like
this, but to see it work was really cool.
What I found for my
-10 was I could fly 65 knot finals and make the first turnoff without much
braking.
What I normally fly is 82 on the approach,
78 over the end of the runway and I get stall warning about 5 feet up
and
touchdown soon after.
Your airplane may be
different.
All speeds in knots.
Jim C
N312F
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: -3 degrees flaps |
90 DW 80 base 70 final... Varies with conditions which have been good cept high
ambient temps...Las Vegas June July. No surprises there
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Rick, what speeds are you flying. I get the best results when I fly mid
70's on final and 70 or below over the threshold. I am at 4500 feet so
ground speed is a little higher. If I come in any faster than that, it will
float. But, I normally do fly faster than that......I like the extra speed
margin......
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I get that David.. Speeds are right on just seems to carry further than. I
thought.....
------Original Message------
From: David McNeill
Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: Rv
Sent: Jul 2, 2009 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Speed control.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are installed.....what's the
best flap position to keep the airplane from floating 1000 foot past the
numbers??
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 42
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
Rule of thumb is max flaps for the level of crosswind and Vso +20%. I have
my Cheltons set to show yellow pitch hat less than 80 kts and red pitch hat
less than 70 knots. Good short field at about 65 kts depending on weight.
When Kaufman and I flew I believe we got the pre stall buffet just above 40
kts with full flaps and just above 50 kts without flaps. That was at a
weight of 2400 pounds. For initial practice I kept him slightly above 70
knots at the flare, this was too fast for short field but very adequate for
normal landing. My aircraft has a pre stall buffet which is easily felt in
the controls. When the buffet is sensed, its time to land or lower the nose
to recover or jam the power forward to go around. Personal opinion is that
if you want to fly the approach at Vso +10% you need gear by Grumman iron
works. In my book there is no such thing as a short field, max cross wind
landing.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
I get that David.. Speeds are right on just seems to carry further than. I
thought.....
------Original Message------
From: David McNeill
Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: Rv
Sent: Jul 2, 2009 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Speed control.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are installed.....what's the
best flap position to keep the airplane from floating 1000 foot past the
numbers??
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 43
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| Subject: | -3 degrees flaps |
80-75-70 Knots for me (occasionally seeing mid 60's on my last looks.
I have been playing around with this a lot recently as one of my regular
commute locations is a semi-short strip with a tall palm tree on one end
and power lines on the other end. I still can't land it as short as my
6A but I am getting a lot closer than my first attempts.
Funny story: Some of my first attempts at landing were at ~5,000' AGL
and I kept floating & floating and I would sink but the runway never got
any closer. The first few times I landed the last third of the runway.
Smooth but looooong. My first mistake was my 80 Knots over the fence (I
was use to my 80 MPH RV-6A) and the second reason I only discovered
while fueling up. The runway had a BIG long dip falling away from my
landing aircraft.
IMHO - For best results be precise with your speeds.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
The good part about the navy based process is that it took into account
the current weight of the aircraft. It also uses the "Indicated" stall
speed which took into account the pitot system and indicators. A single
pilot might get a low stall speed while a gross weight airplane would
yield a higher number. It was still fun to do the math and then fly the
approach.
The -10 is a fun airplane to fly and I know I can slow it down for a
short runway.
Jim C
N312F - 80 hours (Still need to get it painted!)
Do Not Archive
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Great info...the AOA makes this pretty easy....pitch up, keep the RPMs
up,
throttle to control decent with positive pitch held just need to call
the
ball....short field "style" seems the best approach...65 knots on final
is
our working best number....but then again the DA has been between 4500
to
5300.... go figure
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jim" <jim@CombsFive.Com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps
We had a Navy pilot provide CAP folk with a method for landing on short
runways.
during cruise flight, slow down, lower the flaps and determine what the
indicated stall speed was (Just nibble at it). Round the number up to
the nearest 5 knots and then add 10%.
So if you saw 58 knots stall, round up to 60, add 10% to get 66. Fly
the approach at that speed.
When we rounded out over the numbers the bird was done flying and did
not float. It was easy to land on 2000 foot runways.
Try this with the -10. You will get some numbers that will amaze you.
I don't normally fly like this, but to see it work was really cool.
What I found for my -10 was I could fly 65 knot finals and make the
first turnoff without much braking.
What I normally fly is 82 on the approach,
78 over the end of the runway and I get stall warning about 5 feet up
and
touchdown soon after.
Your airplane may be different.
All speeds in knots.
Jim C
N312F
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/02/09 18:06:00
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