---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/07/09: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:42 AM - Re: Signs of the times (johngoodman) 2. 06:04 AM - Re: LSE cooling (orchidman) 3. 07:07 AM - Re: LSE cooling (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 4. 08:56 AM - Re: LSE cooling (Robert Brunkenhoefer) 5. 11:52 AM - local training? (Dawson-Townsend,Timothy) 6. 12:14 PM - Re: local training? (David McNeill) 7. 12:21 PM - Re: local training? (John Jessen) 8. 12:43 PM - Re: local training? (David McNeill) 9. 12:44 PM - Re: local training? (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 10. 12:52 PM - Visiting Osh and California (Michael Wellenzohn) 11. 12:54 PM - Re: local training? (Rene Felker) 12. 01:19 PM - Re: Visiting Osh and California (Robin Marks) 13. 01:24 PM - Re: Visiting Osh and California (Bob Leffler) 14. 01:26 PM - Re: local training? (John Jessen) 15. 01:54 PM - Re: local training? (Kelly McMullen) 16. 02:19 PM - Re: local training? (John Jessen) 17. 02:55 PM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re: local training=3F? (Chris Klugewicz) 18. 03:12 PM - Re: Visiting Osh and California (Don McDonald) 19. 03:47 PM - Re: Visiting Osh and California (Albert Gardner) 20. 03:57 PM - Re: Starter replacementStarter replacement (pascal) 21. 04:08 PM - Re: Visiting Osh and California (Dave Saylor) 22. 04:17 PM - Re: Starter replacementStarter replacement (Kelly McMullen) 23. 04:35 PM - Re: local training? (David McNeill) 24. 05:06 PM - Re: local training? (Kelly McMullen) 25. 05:50 PM - Re: local training? (Tim Olson) 26. 06:06 PM - Re: local training? (Kelly McMullen) 27. 06:44 PM - Re: Starter replacementStarter replacement (tomhanaway) 28. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: Starter replacementStarter replacement (Chris) 29. 07:23 PM - Re: Pitot test rig (was Pitot cover) (Lenny Iszak) 30. 07:50 PM - Re: local training? (David McNeill) 31. 11:10 PM - Re: local training? (Ben Westfall) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:17 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Signs of the times From: "johngoodman" I guess you missed my point - what does that have to do with Trade-A-Plane? John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started. N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251897#251897 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:14 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: LSE cooling From: "orchidman" partner14 wrote: > For those of you with the Lightspeed ignition, how are you cooling the main box? Spruce carries several cooling fans, most with multiple ports. Is this the only answer? I am using Stein's 3 output fan. 1. LSE 2. 430W 3. 327 That's all I needed. -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 (N2GB Flying) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251911#251911 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:01 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: LSE cooling From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" I have a 3 port avionics blower. One of the ports is split into 2 outputs to feed each of my LSE ignitions (3/8" air inlets). According to Klaus you don't need much volume, just something to move the air around so just about anything you pick will do fine. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of partner14 Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:52 AM Subject: RV10-List: LSE cooling For those of you with the Lightspeed ignition, how are you cooling the main box? Spruce carries several cooling fans, most with multiple ports. Is this the only answer? -------- Don A. McDonald 40636 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251881#251881 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:52 AM PST US From: Robert Brunkenhoefer Subject: Re: RV10-List: LSE cooling that's what i use. hooking one port to the cooling intake port on the unit. klaus said to do it that way. robert On Jul 7, 2009, at 12:51 AM, partner14 wrote: > > > > For those of you with the Lightspeed ignition, how are you cooling > the main box? Spruce carries several cooling fans, most with > multiple ports. Is this the only answer? > > -------- > Don A. McDonald > 40636 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251881#251881 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:34 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: local training? From: "Dawson-Townsend,Timothy" Listers: Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight schools might be most "like" an RV-10? My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a little low on the HP Other ideas? TDT Tim Dawson-Townsend 40025 tdt@aurora.aero 617-500-4812 (office) 617-905-4800 (mobile) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:12 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Piper Dakota. same HP, constant prop, fixed gear. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dawson-Townsend,Timothy Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: local training? Listers: Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight schools might be most "like" an RV-10? My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a little low on the HP Other ideas? TDT Tim Dawson-Townsend 40025 tdt@aurora.aero 617-500-4812 (office) 617-905-4800 (mobile) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:17 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. John J _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dawson-Townsend,Timothy Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: local training? Listers: Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight schools might be most "like" an RV-10? My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a little low on the HP Other ideas? TDT Tim Dawson-Townsend 40025 tdt@aurora.aero 617-500-4812 (office) 617-905-4800 (mobile) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:50 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? If you are renting be sure and have some short term renter's insurance. You don't want the rentor's insurance company subrogating against you. The financial impact of even an incident is guaranteed to complicate the RV10 build. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:17 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. John J _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dawson-Townsend,Timothy Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: local training? Listers: Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight schools might be most "like" an RV-10? My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a little low on the HP Other ideas? TDT Tim Dawson-Townsend 40025 tdt@aurora.aero 617-500-4812 (office) 617-905-4800 (mobile) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:20 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Tim, I wouldn't worry about trying to find something that "like" an RV-10 because you really won't. Find something that's fixed gear and constant speed and go with it - that will get you in the groove of dealing with the blue knob. I don't know what you're used to flying but it's likely that the two biggest transition areas are going to be speed management and the avionics. If you're going with a G900 panel and can find a rental with a G1000 and constant speed prop that would be ideal. The stick will take just a few minutes to get used to. Bob _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dawson-Townsend,Timothy Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:51 PM Subject: RV10-List: local training? Listers: Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight schools might be most "like" an RV-10? My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a little low on the HP Other ideas? TDT Tim Dawson-Townsend 40025 tdt@aurora.aero 617-500-4812 (office) 617-905-4800 (mobile) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:50 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California From: "Michael Wellenzohn" Hi Listers, I'll be in Osh with my wife and after that we are planning through California. I was just wondering if there are any flying RV-10 there to visit. Best Regards Michael Switzerland www.wellenzohn.net -------- RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251996#251996 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:40 PM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a 200HP motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. Rene' Felker RV-10 N423CF Flying 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. John J _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dawson-Townsend,Timothy Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: local training? Listers: Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight schools might be most "like" an RV-10? My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a little low on the HP Other ideas? TDT Tim Dawson-Townsend 40025 tdt@aurora.aero 617-500-4812 (office) 617-905-4800 (mobile) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:33 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California From: "Robin Marks" N110EE based in CA at SBP & WHP For a vacation spot it's hard to do better than SBP up to MRY. Robin Do Not Archive www.painttheweb.com/rv-10 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wellenzohn Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:52 PM Subject: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California Hi Listers, I'll be in Osh with my wife and after that we are planning through California. I was just wondering if there are any flying RV-10 there to visit. Best Regards Michael Switzerland www.wellenzohn.net -------- RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251996#251996 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07/07/09 05:53:00 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:22 PM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California There will be at least seven at OSH. http://www.myrv10.com/osh/2009_Campsites.html You can check Tim's Builders list to see if any are in the cities that you'll be visiting. http://www.myrv10.com/builderslist You need to register first to get access, if you haven't already. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wellenzohn Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California Hi Listers, I'll be in Osh with my wife and after that we are planning through California. I was just wondering if there are any flying RV-10 there to visit. Best Regards Michael Switzerland www.wellenzohn.net -------- RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251996#251996 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:42 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory serves. But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be the other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need to be familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a 200HP motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. Rene' Felker RV-10 N423CF Flying 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. John J _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dawson-Townsend,Timothy Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: local training? Listers: Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight schools might be most "like" an RV-10? My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a little low on the HP Other ideas? TDT Tim Dawson-Townsend 40025 tdt@aurora.aero 617-500-4812 (office) 617-905-4800 (mobile) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:55 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp and most common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing variety only the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs to build. Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and higher hp. John Jessen wrote: > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory serves. > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be the > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need to be > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rene Felker > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra wont work, or anything else with a 200HP > motor. Dont know what is in a DA-40. > > > > Rene' Felker > > RV-10 N423CF Flying > > 801-721-6080 > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John Jessen > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. > > > > John J > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? > > Listers: > > > > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight schools > might be most like an RV-10? > > > > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a > little low on the HP > > > > Other ideas? > > > TDT > > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend > > 40025 > > tdt@aurora.aero > > 617-500-4812 (office) > > 617-905-4800 (mobile) > > > > * * > > * * > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:16 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Kelly's correct. Now I remember getting short tempered when I had to pay extra to rent the Turbo Arrow to get the high performance rating. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp and most common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing variety only the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs to build. Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and higher hp. John Jessen wrote: > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory serves. > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be the > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need to be > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rene > Felker > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a 200HP > motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. > > > > Rene' Felker > > RV-10 N423CF Flying > > 801-721-6080 > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John > Jessen > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. > > > > John J > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? > > Listers: > > > > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight > schools might be most "like" an RV-10? > > > > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a > little low on the HP > > > > Other ideas? > > > TDT > > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend > > 40025 > > tdt@aurora.aero > > 617-500-4812 (office) > > 617-905-4800 (mobile) > > > > * * > > * * > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matron > ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com > /c* > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matroni > cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ > c > * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:47 PM PST US Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?RE: RV10-List: local training=3F? From: "Chris Klugewicz" Actually, there are a couple of normally aspirated Arrows out there with 201 HP engines -- there's one at my flight school which is used for both complex and HP training. -----Original Message----- From: "John Jessen" Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 5:18pm Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Kelly's correct. Now I remember getting short tempered when I had to pay extra to rent the Turbo Arrow to get the high performance rating. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp and most common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing variety only the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs to build. Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and higher hp. John Jessen wrote: > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory serves. > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be the > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need to be > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rene > Felker > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a 200HP > motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. > > > > Rene' Felker > > RV-10 N423CF Flying > > 801-721-6080 > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John > Jessen > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. > > > > John J > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? > > Listers: > > > > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight > schools might be most "like" an RV-10? > > > > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a > little low on the HP > > > > Other ideas? > > > TDT > > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend > > 40025 > > tdt@aurora.aero > > 617-500-4812 (office) > > 617-905-4800 (mobile) > > > > * * > > * * > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matron > ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com > /c* > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matroni > cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ > c > * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:10 PM PST US From: Don McDonald Subject: Re: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California We have 5 RV10's in ther Sacramento area... 2 at Lincoln LHM (Myself, Don M cDonald, and Mark Carey,- 2 at Cameron Park (Mark Starsky and Steve Barna rd, and Jim Rore in Stockton.. Don --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Michael Wellenzohn wrote: From: Michael Wellenzohn Subject: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California > Hi Listers, I'll be in Osh with my wife and after that we are planning through Californ ia. I was just wondering if there are any flying RV-10 there to visit. Best Regards Michael Switzerland www.wellenzohn.net -------- RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251996#251996 le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:11 PM PST US From: "Albert Gardner" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California You are welcome in Yuma, AZ. We are on I-8 between Phoenix and San Diego in the far SW of Arizona. 2 RV-9's and my RV-10. We'll treat you right. Albert Gardner N991RV -----Original Message----- Hi Listers, I'll be in Osh with my wife and after that we are planning through California. I was just wondering if there are any flying RV-10 there to visit. Best Regards Michael Switzerland www.wellenzohn.net -------- RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring) #511 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:45 PM PST US From: "pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Starter replacementStarter replacement okay, so I'm a little slow.. how does this compare to the Skytech LS that comes standard on the Lycoming engines and Van's sells? Thanks! Pascal From: Wayne Edgerton Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:05 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Starter replacementStarter replacement Someone pointed out to me that in my post I said volts when I should have said amps. oops. Below are a few of the differences between the Sky-Tec NL & the HT model that I took out. As you can see the NL requires less amps, thus easier to make it turn over, and turns at a slower RPM, however the NL weighs in at about 1 lb more. Wayne Edgerton N602WT NL Model HT Model Current 125-185A @ 11V, 140 RPM Test 185-285A @ 11V, 160 RPM Test Gear Reduction 6.5:1 4.3:1 Weight 9.4 lbs. 8.5 lbs -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGann, Ron Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 3:58 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Starter replacement --> For those flying, I would be keen to know how many more issues of insufficient starter torque have been reported. I regularly need to hold the starter engaged for several seconds before the engine is pushed through compression (when the engine is cold). I was about to relace the concorde battery with an odyssey, but perhaps I need a higher torque starter?? Cheers Ron VH-XRM Flying in Oz -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton Sent: Friday, 19 June 2009 11:52 PM Subject: RV10-List: Starter replacement I don't know if any of you had the problem that I had with the starter or not. We installed the engine in 2005 with a Sky-Tec High Torque HT starter, which supposedly was the best one they had back then. Anyway, whenever I would do a cold start of the engine the prop would make about a half revolution and stop, like it didn't have enough power to it. I would then try again and it would turn fine. Another RV friend of mine on my field told me about a new starter that Sky-Tec came out with that took less volts and turned the prop slower. It's a High Torque in Line NL. This friend was having the same problem with his 7, which has high compression pistons. We both switched to this new NL starter and it solved our problem. The new starter weighed a little bit more than my old one, something like a pound. I live in TX, so cold isn't a problem but I fly up into the cold country and was worried I wasn't going to get started on some cold day. Sky-Tec are really good people located right here near me in Granbury, TX and they took my old starter in on trade against the new one and it cost me $250 to upgrade. I thought that was a pretty good deal. Anyway I just thought I would pass this along in case any of you are experiencing the same problem as I had. Wayne Edgerton N602WT ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Visiting Osh and California From: Dave Saylor We'll be back from OSH around August 3rd. Santa Cruz and Monterey are close by, and you're welcome to park here as long as you like. Dave Saylor--N921AC 420+ hours AirCrafters LLC 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Michael Wellenzohn wrote: > rv-10@wellenzohn.net> > > Hi Listers, > > I'll be in Osh with my wife and after that we are planning through > California. I was just wondering if there are any flying RV-10 there to > visit. > > Best Regards > > Michael > > Switzerland > www.wellenzohn.net > > -------- > RV-10 builder (avionics, wiring) > #511 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251996#251996 > > -- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Starter replacementStarter replacement From: Kelly McMullen Don't even think about the LS series on a 540 engine. Much higher current draw and lower torque. Likely to have difficulty even getting past first compression stroke unless you have a very healthy battery. IMHO the Kelly E drive starter is a better choice than any of the Skytech. No relation, just comparing specs and reports of satisfied users. Main difference is a clutch to protect against kickback vs Skytech uses a shear pin than requires removal of starter to replace. On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:56 PM, pascal wrote: > okay, so I'm a little slow.. how does this compare to the Skytech LS that > comes standard on the Lycoming engines and Van's sells? > Thanks! > Pascal > > *From:* Wayne Edgerton > *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2009 5:05 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Starter replacementStarter replacement > > Someone pointed out to me that in my post I said volts when I should have > said amps. oops. Below are a few of the differences between the Sky-Tec NL & > the HT model that I took out. As you can see the NL requires less amps, thus > easier to make it turn over, and turns at a slower RPM, however the NL > weighs in at about 1 lb more. > > Wayne Edgerton N602WT > > > NL Model > HT Model > > Current 125-185A @ 11V, 140 RPM > Test 185-285A @ 11V, 160 RPM Test > > Gear Reduction > 6.5:1 > 4.3:1 > > Weight 9.4 > lbs. 8.5 lbs > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:09 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Just as long as that entry in your logbook doesn't come under scrutiny by the FAA or an insurance company. If its certified as 200HP, the FAA is not concerned that somebody has tests showing 201HP for a given engine. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Klugewicz Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 2:54 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Actually, there are a couple of normally aspirated Arrows out there with 201 HP engines -- there's one at my flight school which is used for both complex and HP training. -----Original Message----- From: "John Jessen" Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 5:18pm Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? Kelly's correct. Now I remember getting short tempered when I had to pay extra to rent the Turbo Arrow to get the high performance rating. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp and most common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing variety only the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs to build. Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and higher hp. John Jessen wrote: > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory serves. > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be the > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need to be > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rene > Felker > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a 200HP > motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. > > > > Rene' Felker > > RV-10 N423CF Flying > > 801-721-6080 > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John > Jessen > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. > > > > John J > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? > > Listers: > > > > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight > schools might be most "like" an RV-10? > > > > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a > little low on the HP > > > > Other ideas? > > > TDT > > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend > > 40025 > > tdt@aurora.aero > > 617-500-4812 (office) > > 617-905-4800 (mobile) > > > > * * > > * * > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matron > ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com > /c* > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matroni > cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ > c > * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? From: Kelly McMullen If it has the Lycoming IO360 engine, it IS a 200 hp engine. There are not any certified versions for fixed wing with higher rated horsepower. Even the STC for 10:1 compression pistons requires de-rating MP to limit the engine to 200 hp. It doesn't matter what the engine dyno's at, other than FAA limit is +5% of rated power. It is rated HP that matters for the HP endorsement. If school is endorsing based on some phony marketing rating, they and their students risk FAA action. On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Chris Klugewicz wrote: > > Actually, there are a couple of normally aspirated Arrows out there with > 201 HP engines -- there's one at my flight school which is used for both > complex and HP training. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "John Jessen" > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 5:18pm > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > Kelly's correct. Now I remember getting short tempered when I had to pay > extra to rent the Turbo Arrow to get the high performance rating. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:53 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? > > > Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp and most > common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing variety only > the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or > PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. > In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs to > build. > Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and higher hp. > > John Jessen wrote: > > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory serves. > > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be the > > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need to be > > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and > > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rene > > Felker > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM > > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign > > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a 200HP > > motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. > > > > > > > > Rene' Felker > > > > RV-10 N423CF Flying > > > > 801-721-6080 > > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John > > Jessen > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM > > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > > > > > > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both > > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as > > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the > > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. > > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a > > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. > > > > > > > > John J > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM > > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? > > > > Listers: > > > > > > > > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed > > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight > > schools might be most "like" an RV-10? > > > > > > > > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a > > little low on the HP > > > > > > > > Other ideas? > > > > > > TDT > > > > > > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend > > > > 40025 > > > > tdt@aurora.aero > > > > 617-500-4812 (office) > > > > 617-905-4800 (mobile) > > > > > > > > * * > > > > * * > > > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matron > > ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > > > *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com > > /c* > > > > * * > > > > * * > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > * > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matroni > > cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ > > c > > * > > > > * > > > > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:18 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? Isn't the regulation that it must be GREATER than 200 (ie 201) or it doesn't qualify for H.P.? I think if anything that the manufacturers would UNDER list them so they could sell more planes and have a larger customer base by not having them forced to have an endorsement to fly it. Tim Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > If it has the Lycoming IO360 engine, it IS a 200 hp engine. There > are not any certified versions for fixed wing with higher rated > horsepower. Even the STC for 10:1 compression pistons requires de- > rating MP to limit the engine to 200 hp. It doesn't matter what the > engine dyno's at, other than FAA limit is +5% of rated power. > It is rated HP that matters for the HP endorsement. If school is > endorsing based on some phony marketing rating, they and their > students risk FAA action. > > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Chris Klugewicz > wrote: > > Actually, there are a couple of normally aspirated Arrows out there > with 201 HP engines -- there's one at my flight school which is used > for both complex and HP training. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "John Jessen" > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 5:18pm > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > Kelly's correct. Now I remember getting short tempered when I had > to pay > extra to rent the Turbo Arrow to get the high performance rating. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly > McMullen > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:53 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? > > > Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp and > most > common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing > variety only > the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or > PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. > In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs > to build. > Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and > higher hp. > > John Jessen wrote: > > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory > serves. > > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be > the > > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need > to be > > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and > > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rene > > Felker > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM > > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign > > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a > 200HP > > motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. > > > > > > > > Rene' Felker > > > > RV-10 N423CF Flying > > > > 801-721-6080 > > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John > > Jessen > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM > > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > > > > > > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get > both > > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not > as > > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is > the > > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. > > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a > > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their > bills. > > > > > > > > John J > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM > > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? > > > > Listers: > > > > > > > > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant- > speed > > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight > > schools might be most "like" an RV-10? > > > > > > > > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant > speed, a > > little low on the HP > > > > > > > > Other ideas? > > > > > > TDT > > > > > > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend > > > > 40025 > > > > tdt@aurora.aero > > > > 617-500-4812 (office) > > > > 617-905-4800 (mobile) > > > > > > > > * * > > > > * * > > > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matron > > ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > > > *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com > > /c* > > > > * * > > > > * * > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > * > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matroni > > cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ > > c > > * > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > ========== > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:44 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? You are correct. Only TCM makes an IO-360 rated at more than 200hp, as in 220RV, the 210hp engine. Used in very few certified aircraft without turbocharging. Tim Olson wrote: > Isn't the regulation that it must be GREATER than 200 (ie 201) or it > doesn't qualify for H.P.? I think if anything that the manufacturers > would UNDER list them so they could sell more planes and have a larger > customer base by not having them forced to have an endorsement to fly it. > Tim > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 7, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Kelly McMullen > wrote: > >> If it has the Lycoming IO360 engine, it IS a 200 hp engine. There are >> not any certified versions for fixed wing with higher rated >> horsepower. Even the STC for 10:1 compression pistons requires >> de-rating MP to limit the engine to 200 hp. It doesn't matter what the >> engine dyno's at, other than FAA limit is +5% of rated power. >> It is rated HP that matters for the HP endorsement. If school is >> endorsing based on some phony marketing rating, they and their >> students risk FAA action. >> >> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Chris Klugewicz < >> ck@chesbay.com > wrote: >> >> ck@chesbay.com > >> >> Actually, there are a couple of normally aspirated Arrows out >> there with 201 HP engines -- there's one at my flight school which >> is used for both complex and HP training. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "John Jessen" < n212pj@gmail.com >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 5:18pm >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> >> Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? >> >> n212pj@gmail.com > >> >> Kelly's correct. Now I remember getting short tempered when I had >> to pay >> extra to rent the Turbo Arrow to get the high performance rating. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: >> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> >> [mailto: >> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> ] On Behalf Of Kelly >> McMullen >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:53 PM >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? >> >> kellym@aviating.com >> > >> >> Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp >> and most >> common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing >> variety only >> the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or >> PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. >> In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs >> to build. >> Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and >> higher hp. >> >> John Jessen wrote: >> > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory >> serves. >> > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would >> be the >> > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need >> to be >> > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and >> > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -- >> > *From:* >> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> >> > [mailto: >> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> ] *On Behalf Of *Rene >> > Felker >> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM >> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com >> >> > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? >> > >> > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign >> > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a >> 200HP >> > motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. >> > >> > >> > >> > Rene' Felker >> > >> > RV-10 N423CF Flying >> > >> > 801-721-6080 >> > >> > *From:* >> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> >> > [mailto: >> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> ] *On Behalf Of *John >> > Jessen >> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM >> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com >> >> > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? >> > >> > >> > >> > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get >> both >> > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly >> not as >> > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which >> is the >> > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. >> > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a >> > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their >> bills. >> > >> > >> > >> > John J >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -- >> > >> > *From:* >> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> >> > [mailto: >> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> ] *On Behalf Of >> > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy >> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM >> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com >> >> > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? >> > >> > Listers: >> > >> > >> > >> > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a >> constant-speed >> > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight >> > schools might be most "like" an RV-10? >> > >> > >> > >> > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant >> speed, a >> > little low on the HP >> > >> > >> > >> > Other ideas? >> > >> > >> > TDT >> > >> > >> > >> > Tim Dawson-Townsend >> > >> > 40025 >> > >> > tdt@aurora.aero >> tdt@aurora.aero >> > >> > >> > 617-500-4812 (office) >> > >> > 617-905-4800 (mobile) >> > >> > >> > >> > * * >> > >> > * * >> > >> > *href=" >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"> >> http://www.matron >> > >> ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* >> >> > >> > *href=" >> http://forums.matronics.com"> >> http://forums.matronics.com* >> > >> > *href=" >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> >> http://www.matronics.com >> > /c* >> > >> > * * >> > >> > * * >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > * >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > * http://forums.matronics.com* >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > ** >> > >> > * >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* >> > >> > ** >> > >> > * * >> > >> > * >> > >> > href=" >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"> >> http://www.matroni >> > cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> >> > href=" >> http://forums.matronics.com"> >> http://forums.matronics.com >> > href=" >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> >> http://www.matronics.com/ >> > c >> > * >> > >> > * >> > >> > >> > * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> arget="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:22 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Starter replacementStarter replacement From: "tomhanaway" When I got my Lycoming IO-540 it came with the LS skytech motor. I purchased it though Van's at Sun and Fun 2008. A thread was going on at the time that recommended the NL as a better starter. Of course, I went through the stress thing of "jeez, I just bought this engine and theres already something not right :^). Anyway, I took a look at the Skytech site and they specifically had a note that the NL should be used rather than the LS. I confirmed it by speaking with Skytech. The motor had not been hung at the time, much less started. I contacted Lycoming, referred them to the Skytech website comments about the starter. Lycoming sent me a new NL starter and I returned the LS. No charge. Left me pretty impressed with the Lycoming customer service. Your mileage may vary. Tom Hanaway N519TP reserved Boynton Beach, FL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252052#252052 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:46 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Starter replacementStarter replacement Did the same except via skytec. -Chris #40072 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tomhanaway Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:43 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Starter replacementStarter replacement When I got my Lycoming IO-540 it came with the LS skytech motor. I purchased it though Van's at Sun and Fun 2008. A thread was going on at the time that recommended the NL as a better starter. Of course, I went through the stress thing of "jeez, I just bought this engine and theres already something not right :^). Anyway, I took a look at the Skytech site and they specifically had a note that the NL should be used rather than the LS. I confirmed it by speaking with Skytech. The motor had not been hung at the time, much less started. I contacted Lycoming, referred them to the Skytech website comments about the starter. Lycoming sent me a new NL starter and I returned the LS. No charge. Left me pretty impressed with the Lycoming customer service. Your mileage may vary. Tom Hanaway N519TP reserved Boynton Beach, FL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252052#252052 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:42 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Pitot test rig (was Pitot cover) From: "Lenny Iszak" I wonder if I could use different type of tubing for the manometer rig. I'd like to use the tubing supplied for the brakes. Would that change the readings? Lenny Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252061#252061 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:04 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? I submitted a proposal to the FSDO to give transition training in my RV10 commercially. I included that I would include the HP endorsement if necessary. They came back to me and said that I must agree not to give the HP endorsement. as it could be accomplished in certified aircraft. They acknowledged that I would have to train to HP proficiency but could not signoff per the agreement. I had given consideration to providing RV10 transition for the Southwest. I already had concluded that it was at best a breakeven deal, The rules on the HP endorsement were the proverbial straw which made the decision for me.. For those of you needing transition training: If you have 500-1000+ hours and a CFI friend with an RV10. It may be possible to be added to his policy as named insured a no additional cost. He cannot legally charge you for his time or aircraft but you can pay the operational expenses for the flight. This works only if your insurance requirements are small and your total time is relatively high. Otherwise your best solution may be OR or TX at $200+ per hour plus living and transportation expense. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:42 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? Isn't the regulation that it must be GREATER than 200 (ie 201) or it doesn't qualify for H.P.? I think if anything that the manufacturers would UNDER list them so they could sell more planes and have a larger customer base by not having them forced to have an endorsement to fly it. Tim Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: If it has the Lycoming IO360 engine, it IS a 200 hp engine. There are not any certified versions for fixed wing with higher rated horsepower. Even the STC for 10:1 compression pistons requires de-rating MP to limit the engine to 200 hp. It doesn't matter what the engine dyno's at, other than FAA limit is +5% of rated power. It is rated HP that matters for the HP endorsement. If school is endorsing based on some phony marketing rating, they and their students risk FAA action. On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Chris Klugewicz < ck@chesbay.com> wrote: ck@chesbay.com> Actually, there are a couple of normally aspirated Arrows out there with 201 HP engines -- there's one at my flight school which is used for both complex and HP training. -----Original Message----- From: "John Jessen" < n212pj@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 5:18pm Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? n212pj@gmail.com> Kelly's correct. Now I remember getting short tempered when I had to pay extra to rent the Turbo Arrow to get the high performance rating. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? kellym@aviating.com> Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp and most common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing variety only the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs to build. Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and higher hp. John Jessen wrote: > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory serves. > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be the > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need to be > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rene > Felker > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a 200HP > motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. > > > Rene' Felker > > RV-10 N423CF Flying > > 801-721-6080 > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John > Jessen > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. > > > John J > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? > > Listers: > > > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight > schools might be most "like" an RV-10? > > > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a > little low on the HP > > > Other ideas? > > > TDT > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend > > 40025 > > tdt@aurora.aero tdt@aurora.aero> > > 617-500-4812 (office) > > 617-905-4800 (mobile) > > > * * > > * * > > *href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"> http://www.matron > ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > *href=" http://forums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com > /c* > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"> http://www.matroni > cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List > href=" http://forums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.com > href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/ > c > * > > * > > > * ========== arget="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:30 PM PST US From: "Ben Westfall" Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? I have only had my "free" flight in an RV-10 so my opinion may not be all that accurate but I'd recommend Cessna 206 time. Those might be a bit easier to find in the rental fleet. The rate the 206 comes out of the sky at idle felt pretty similar to power off in the 10. I've got about 200 hours of 206 time and it seemed to me my 10min of 10 time felt comparable to a 206 with respect to ground handling with a heavier airframe, takeoff p-factor, pretty healthy climb for a Cessna, power off decent, big throaty motor, complexity of systems, overall stability of the platform in flight. They aren't quite as fast but you can make an honest 135-140kts in a 300hp 206. -Ben Westfall _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? I submitted a proposal to the FSDO to give transition training in my RV10 commercially. I included that I would include the HP endorsement if necessary. They came back to me and said that I must agree not to give the HP endorsement. as it could be accomplished in certified aircraft. They acknowledged that I would have to train to HP proficiency but could not signoff per the agreement. I had given consideration to providing RV10 transition for the Southwest. I already had concluded that it was at best a breakeven deal, The rules on the HP endorsement were the proverbial straw which made the decision for me.. For those of you needing transition training: If you have 500-1000+ hours and a CFI friend with an RV10. It may be possible to be added to his policy as named insured a no additional cost. He cannot legally charge you for his time or aircraft but you can pay the operational expenses for the flight. This works only if your insurance requirements are small and your total time is relatively high. Otherwise your best solution may be OR or TX at $200+ per hour plus living and transportation expense. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:42 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? Isn't the regulation that it must be GREATER than 200 (ie 201) or it doesn't qualify for H.P.? I think if anything that the manufacturers would UNDER list them so they could sell more planes and have a larger customer base by not having them forced to have an endorsement to fly it. Tim Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: If it has the Lycoming IO360 engine, it IS a 200 hp engine. There are not any certified versions for fixed wing with higher rated horsepower. Even the STC for 10:1 compression pistons requires de-rating MP to limit the engine to 200 hp. It doesn't matter what the engine dyno's at, other than FAA limit is +5% of rated power. It is rated HP that matters for the HP endorsement. If school is endorsing based on some phony marketing rating, they and their students risk FAA action. On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Chris Klugewicz < ck@chesbay.com> wrote: ck@chesbay.com> Actually, there are a couple of normally aspirated Arrows out there with 201 HP engines -- there's one at my flight school which is used for both complex and HP training. -----Original Message----- From: "John Jessen" < n212pj@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 5:18pm Subject: RE: RV10-List: local training? n212pj@gmail.com> Kelly's correct. Now I remember getting short tempered when I had to pay extra to rent the Turbo Arrow to get the high performance rating. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: local training? kellym@aviating.com> Only the 210 hp Turbo Arrow would be high performance. The 180hp and most common 200hp Arrows are only complex, not HP. Of the low wing variety only the SR20 and 22 are going to be similar. Piper Dakota or PA-28-235 Pathfinder would work. In fact older SR22's are selling for about what a nice RV-10 costs to build. Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350 might work but is a bit hotter and higher hp. John Jessen wrote: > The Arrow is usually classified as high performance, if memory serves. > But, you certainly don't need complex. I think a Dakota would be the > other Piper choice, maybe even a better solution. You just need to be > familiar with handling the prop, so really anything that has 210 and > over in horsepower and a constant speed should be okay. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rene > Felker > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:54 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > Also need to make sure it is high performance. Will need that sign > off. >200HP. Beech Sierra won't work, or anything else with a 200HP > motor. Don't know what is in a DA-40. > > > Rene' Felker > > RV-10 N423CF Flying > > 801-721-6080 > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John > Jessen > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:17 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: local training? > > > Not all that much like an RV-10, but you can use an Arrow to get both > constant speed and complex time. It's low wing, but certainly not as > powerful as the RV. Some flight schools have the Katana, which is the > older 2-seat version of the DA-40. That has constant speed. > Uncomfortable as hell, though. If you don't mind high wing, find a > 182. Often the CAP folks rent out their 182's. Helps pay their bills. > > > John J > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Dawson-Townsend,Timothy > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:51 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV10-List: local training? > > Listers: > > > Issue: want to log some more hours in something with a constant-speed > prop. What aircraft that I might find somewhere at local flight > schools might be most "like" an RV-10? > > > My best idea so far is a DA40 - has a center stick, constant speed, a > little low on the HP > > > Other ideas? > > > TDT > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend > > 40025 > > tdt@aurora.aero tdt@aurora.aero> > > 617-500-4812 (office) > > 617-905-4800 (mobile) > > > * * > > * * > > *href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"> http://www.matron > ics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > *href=" http://forums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com > /c* > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"> http://www.matroni > cs.com/Navigator?RV10-List > href=" http://forums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.com > href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/ > c > * > > * > > > * ========== arget="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.