Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:48 AM - Re: Auto Power (Kelly McMullen)
2. 05:14 AM - RV-10 OSH Event Reminder (bcondrey)
3. 05:55 AM - Re: Auto Power (Bobby J. Hughes)
4. 05:55 AM - Re: RV-10 OSH Event Reminder (Kelly McMullen)
5. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: Auto Power (John Cox)
6. 09:13 AM - Re: Auto Power (Dj Merrill)
7. 09:39 AM - Re. GRT EIS Probe (Barry Marz)
8. 10:38 AM - Re: Auto Power (christopher johnston)
9. 11:40 AM - Re: Auto Power (Kelly McMullen)
10. 01:52 PM - Re: Auto Power (Dj Merrill)
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On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Bobby J. Hughes<bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:
> Paul,
> I have a rotary powered RV10 in phase 1 with about 20 hours on it. So far no
> major issues. Its the RX8 two-rotor engine with a small super charger. Its
> producing about 238 hp and closely matches Vans estimates for the 235 hp
> engine. No fuel flow data yet but should be between .45 and .55 BSFC. Im
> running richer because of the super charger and the 100 +F degree days here
> in Texas. But Im also running 93 octane auto fuel so its a little easier
> on the wallet than 100LL.
So can a Lyc. run on mogas. Good luck finding it in most parts of the
country without ethanol.
> BSFC better than .41. Piston and rotary engines average about .5 BSFC. But
> who cares if you run at least 50% auto fuel.
It is called range. Higher fuel consumption equals significantly
shorter fuel range, unless you put in aux tanks with that debate.
> 2000 hr TBO. Who cares if you can buy 3-4 new engines for the price of a
> lyc overhaul. We have several rotaries with over 1000 hrs. One should be
> close to 3000. I have no data on the Chevys or Subis.
Who wants to change engines every 1000-1500 hours? Who pays for that labor?
But lycs
> and conts also fail. The rotary powered lancair ES driver here in Austin
> keeps a chunk of steel in is hanger. If ask him why he chose to put an
> alternative engine in his plane he will hand it to you. Its whats left of
> a Lyc piston that exited the cowl. Fortunately they had turned back to the
> airport about 30 seconds before the engine came apart. Just made the
> runway.We have another rotary owner with the same story.
Lycoming pistons and Continental pistons are aluminum, not steel. Only
the TCM has a steel insert for the ring land. Tell him to try a new
story or new name to the part.
Perhaps it was a steel connecting rod....improper
inspection/assembly...no engine is immune from that. Engines don't
fail catastrophically unless not built right to start, or over
stressed by turbos/superchargers or drastically improper
operation/maintenance.
Message 2
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| Subject: | RV-10 OSH Event Reminder |
Just a reminder to those at OSH that we're having the big cookout tonight. Smoked
brisket, fresh sweet corn, beans, strawberry shortcake and ice cream!
starting around 6:00, nothing to bring except possibly a chair. We'll have a plate
out to collect some $ if you'd like to contribute.
Even if you don't eat or are running late feel free to stop by - very difficult
to find a larger collection of RV-10 flyers and builders in one spot. There
are usually people out talking until at least 10:30 or 11:00.
Location is Camp Scholler, 55th and Lindbergh which is about a 5 minute walk from
either the Theater in the Woods gate or the Fly Market gate.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255344#255344
Message 3
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So can a Lyc. run on mogas. Good luck finding it in most parts of the country without
ethanol.
None locally yet but the fuel system is ethanol safe. No vapor pressure issues
so far.
It is called range. Higher fuel consumption equals significantly shorter fuel
range, unless you put in aux tanks with that debate.
Personal range is about 3 hours. Plane can go much further than me.
Lycoming pistons and Continental pistons are aluminum, not steel. Only the TCM
has a steel insert for the ring land. Tell him to try a new story or new name
to the part.
Perhaps it was a steel connecting rod....improper inspection/assembly...no engine
is immune from that. Engines don't fail catastrophically unless not built right
to start, or over stressed by turbos/superchargers or drastically improper
operation/maintenance.
Your correct. Pistons are aluminum and rotors are steel. So I should have said
ball of aluminum. It was also a trainer so maintenance should have been perfect
right?
Who wants to change engines every 1000-1500 hours? Who pays for that labor?
It would be about a three day task with my airframe and I would do it myself. As
I said, you can't just drop it off at the shop.
Bobby
(back to lurking)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Auto Power
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Bobby J. Hughes<bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:
> Paul,
> I have a rotary powered RV10 in phase 1 with about 20 hours on it. So
> far no major issues. It's the RX8 two-rotor engine with a small super
> charger. It's producing about 238 hp and closely matches Van's
> estimates for the 235 hp engine. No fuel flow data yet but should be
> between .45 and .55 BSFC. I'm running richer because of the super
> charger and the 100 +F degree days here in Texas. But I'm also
> running 93 octane auto fuel so it's a little easier on the wallet than 100LL.
So can a Lyc. run on mogas. Good luck finding it in most parts of the country without
ethanol.
> BSFC better than .41. Piston and rotary engines average about .5
> BSFC. But who cares if you run at least 50% auto fuel.
It is called range. Higher fuel consumption equals significantly shorter fuel
range, unless you put in aux tanks with that debate.
> 2000 hr TBO. Who cares if you can buy 3-4 new engines for the price
> of a lyc overhaul. We have several rotaries with over 1000 hrs. One
> should be close to 3000. I have no data on the Chevy's or Subi's.
Who wants to change engines every 1000-1500 hours? Who pays for that labor?
But lyc's
> and cont's also fail. The rotary powered lancair ES driver here in
> Austin keeps a chunk of steel in is hanger. If ask him why he chose to
> put an alternative engine in his plane he will hand it to you. It's
> what's left of a Lyc piston that exited the cowl. Fortunately they had
> turned back to the airport about 30 seconds before the engine came
> apart. Just made the runway.We have another rotary owner with the same story.
Lycoming pistons and Continental pistons are aluminum, not steel. Only the TCM
has a steel insert for the ring land. Tell him to try a new story or new name
to the part.
Perhaps it was a steel connecting rod....improper inspection/assembly...no engine
is immune from that. Engines don't fail catastrophically unless not built right
to start, or over stressed by turbos/superchargers or drastically improper
operation/maintenance.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 OSH Event Reminder |
Big Thanks to Bob. Great hospitality all week. Sorry I can't be there
as my return flight leaves Rockford early this afternoon. Was great
meeting some of the names seen here and seeing the pieces Geoff is
developing for the interior.
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:13 AM, bcondrey<bob.condrey@baesystems.com> wrote:
>
> Just a reminder to those at OSH that we're having the big cookout tonight. Smoked
brisket, fresh sweet corn, beans, strawberry shortcake and ice cream!
>
> starting around 6:00, nothing to bring except possibly a chair. We'll have a
plate out to collect some $ if you'd like to contribute.
>
> Even if you don't eat or are running late feel free to stop by - very difficult
to find a larger collection of RV-10 flyers and builders in one spot. There
are usually people out talking until at least 10:30 or 11:00.
>
> Location is Camp Scholler, 55th and Lindbergh which is about a 5 minute walk
from either the Theater in the Woods gate or the Fly Market gate.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255344#255344
>
>
Message 5
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Rick, your RV-10 was beautiful, Oshkosh inspirational, and your humor Price
less as I return to work this afternoon. Raise one for me tonight with the
whole successful group, Tell Bob & Gary Thanks for all the work and memori
es, tell Bob Newman I will work on the Vag Vents as modification #287 after
I begin telling my limitless stories back home..
Oh, by the way tell Jessie I use PPG primer with my Barrett and the new pis
ton design in the Super RV10 - Gen II.
Fly home safe to everyone.
John Cox
From: ricksked@embarqmail.com
Sent: Thu 7/30/2009 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Auto Power
Akzo for Lycomings' NAPA SE for auto conversions...
------Original Message------
From: Jesse Saint
Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: Rv
Sent: Jul 30, 2009 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Auto Power
Wow, we have completely revived an old Alt Engine War! What ever
happened to Innodyne?
Anybody know of a good primer to use or is it even worth priming at all?
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation
jesse@saintaviation.com
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 6
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On 07/31/2009 07:38 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> So can a Lyc. run on mogas. Good luck finding it in most parts of the
> country without ethanol.
One minor difference is that both Mazda and Subaru have designed and
support their engines running on gasoline with a 10% ethanol blend.
Lycoming does not yet support their engine running on gasoline w/
ethanol, although it will likely burn it just fine.
> It is called range. Higher fuel consumption equals significantly
> shorter fuel range, unless you put in aux tanks with that debate.
At OSH this year a company is demonstrating their new gas/electric
hybrid aircraft engine. Another example of automotive inspired ideas
being modified for use in aviation. It supposedly gives an additional
40 hp for takeoff. No idea if it helps with gas mileage, but I can see
adaptions of it where it might.
Very cool stuff! It just gets better every year! :-)
> Who wants to change engines every 1000-1500 hours? Who pays for that
> labor?
>
An auto engine overhaul is about 1/10 the cost of a Lycoming
overhaul, so I would overhaul engines every 1000 hours versus 2000
hours. I think that works out to something like at least $15k savings
for every 2000 hours? That will buy lots of fuel, even at .5 BSFC. :-)
Even better, if I can put in a brand new engine every 1000 hours
instead of an overhauled engine every 2000 hours, that attracts me even
more. It is about $5k for a new auto engine, and somewhere around $20k
to overhaul a Lyc to new specs. Presuming the auto engine would even
need to be replaced at 1000 hours, that is still about a $10k cost
savings, and you get a new engine instead of a "used" one.
I suppose the same person that pays for the labor to replace the Lyc
every 2000 hours would pay for the auto engine replacement every 1000.
Would there be another choice for having someone else pay with either
the Lyc or auto engine?
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://deej.net/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re. GRT EIS Probe |
Hi Ron, I had the same problem; mine was a bad crimp on the D-Sub pin
in the connector to the EIS box. You should have continuity from the
pin to ground. GRT troubleshooting guide explains how to check it
out. Blue Skys Barry.
Barry Marz
18735 Baseleg AVE.
FT. Myers, Fl 33917
239-567-2271
blalmarz@embarqmail.com
Message 8
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Hey Bobby -
Thanks for contributing with the information. Of course the argument
will rage on, but I applaud true experimentation and innovation. As
with anything, there are pros and cons, and the bonus of building is
that we get to make those decisions, do research, and have debates.
I ended up going Lyc, but in the beginning, I was 100% positive that
I'd be doing something alternative. After much soul searching and
research, I made the decision that was best for me. A big part of
the decision was the time investment. My girlfriend would rather be
flying than sitting around while I tinker, and in her mind there's
already been too much tinkering! Anyway, I hope to see your bird
around sometime. I appreciate you coming out from lurking to add
some info.
cj
On Jul 30, 2009, at 8:49 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I have a rotary powered RV10 in phase 1 with about 20 hours on it.
> So far no major issues. It=92s the RX8 two-rotor engine with a small
> super charger. It=92s producing about 238 hp and closely matches
> Van=92s estimates for the 235 hp engine. No fuel flow data yet but
> should be between .45 and .55 BSFC. I=92m running richer because of
> the super charger and the 100 +F degree days here in Texas. But
> I=92m also running 93 octane auto fuel so it=92s a little easier on
the
> wallet than 100LL. My FWF probably coast about 18K but I made
> several items several times. My engine was a 0 time crate engine
> and I paid $5000 for it with several mod=92s mostly to remove
> internals not needed for aviation. Several others are putting 3
> rotor, 20B=92s in RV-10=92s. They will see between 260 and 300 hp
> depending on intake design and porting. There=92s also a nice twin
> turbo Subaru RV-10 that should be close to completion. He=92s a
> second- time RV and Subaru offender. Ross?
>
> If you have an interest you should do the research. Then if anyone
> can talk you out of it you shouldn=92t do it. If someone can talk you
> into it then you also shouldn=92t do it. It will add years to your
> build time and may not save you any money. Saving money on the
> engine block is not a good reason to pursue an alternative. The
> total cost of ownership and flying can be less expensive then a
> Lyc. http://www.flyrotary.com/ is a good resource for learning
> about auto conversions. Its rotary related but things like cooling
> and fuel systems have almost become standard regardless of the
> alternative engine. Our rotary group has had several first flights
> this year. I am very fortunate to have two other flying rotary=92s
> here in Austin TX. One Lancair ES and an RV-7A.
>
> I will not debate the merits of alternative engines on this site
> but I will debunk a few things that were stated as absolute.
>
> BSFC better than .41. Piston and rotary engines average about .5
> BSFC. But who cares if you run at least 50% auto fuel.
>
> Alternative engine FWF=92s are heaver. While this is usually true
> it=92s not set in stone. There are a few flying examples of lighter
> installations.
>
> 2000 hr TBO. Who cares if you can buy 3-4 new engines for the
> price of a lyc overhaul. We have several rotaries with over 1000
> hrs. One should be close to 3000. I have no data on the Chevy=92s or
> Subi=92s.
>
> RV-10 Cowl. Egg=92s got one for the Subi. Extreme Composites has a
> base cowl for the Rotary. You have to add your own cooling inlets.
> This allows the builder more options for heat exchanger placement.
> Not sure who makes the subi cowl but Extreme composites makes cowls
> for the F1 rocket and other aviation fiberglass parts.
>
>
> I will also confirm a few things that have been said and add a few
> more.
>
> Your FWF will likely take more time than the airframe.
> Your personal Phase 1 will likely be more than 100 hrs.
> Flight testing will carry more risk.
> Your electrical system needs to be bullet proof.
> Your resale value will be lower. No problem if you plan to keep the
> plane at least 10 years. The money you save on fuel will make up
> most of the difference.
> Your own your own for service and repairs. No dropping it off at
> the repair shop.
> Dan=92s accident was a tragedy and a blow to everyone on this list.
> But lyc=92s and cont=92s also fail. The rotary powered lancair ES
> driver here in Austin keeps a chunk of steel in is hanger. If ask
> him why he chose to put an alternative engine in his plane he will
> hand it to you. It=92s what=92s left of a Lyc piston that exited the
> cowl. Fortunately they had turned back to the airport about 30
> seconds before the engine came apart. Just made the runway. We have
> another rotary owner with the same story.
>
>
> Bobby Hughes
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walter
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:46 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Auto Power
>
>
> Hello to the group,
>
> I came across an aluminum block V8 powered RV 10 on utube recently.
> It was still a way off flying but had the engine running. I was
> wondering if anyone in the U.S. actually has a flying example of
> this type of engine installation and if so how the performance
> numbers stack up compared to a Lycoming etc.
>
> Paul
> ~=03
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 9
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On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Dj Merrill<deej@deej.net> wrote:
> One minor difference is that both Mazda and Subaru have designed and
> support their engines running on gasoline with a 10% ethanol blend.
> Lycoming does not yet support their engine running on gasoline w/
> ethanol, although it will likely burn it just fine.
Lycoming and Continental don't support mogas with ethanol because the
FAA prohibits its use, for good reason.
Higher vapor pressure than pure mogas, by at least a full point, and
very absorbtive of any humidity/moisture.
Also, mogas does attack some formulations of Proseal. I'm sure you
want to redo your tanks.
> An auto engine overhaul is about 1/10 the cost of a Lycoming
> overhaul, so I would overhaul engines every 1000 hours versus 2000
> hours. I think that works out to something like at least $15k savings
> for every 2000 hours? That will buy lots of fuel, even at .5 BSFC. :-)
Good luck on doing a full, competent overhaul for $2000. I've done
enough auto engines to know that isn't happening today.
I can certainly do a Lycoming for less than $20K unless major
components are worn out.
> I suppose the same person that pays for the labor to replace the Lyc
> every 2000 hours would pay for the auto engine replacement every 1000.
> Would there be another choice for having someone else pay with either
> the Lyc or auto engine?
Whether you pay for the labor or do it yourself, you are still looking
at a good 40 hours worth of work.
No where are you accounting for the cost of overhauling the PSRU every
500 hours or so, and the cost of removing and installing it.
The choice is certainly yours, just don't go in with blinders.
Message 10
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On 07/31/2009 02:31 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Lycoming and Continental don't support mogas with ethanol because the
> FAA prohibits its use, for good reason.
>
Automotive gasoline with ethanol is not prohibited by the FAA in
experimental aircraft.
> Higher vapor pressure than pure mogas, by at least a full point, and
> very absorbtive of any humidity/moisture.
>
If using automotive fuel, you are supposed to test every time to
ensure you are using a good "batch". A pain, but not difficult or time
consuming, and it is rare to get a batch that does not pass. With the
full recirculating fuel system in an automotive conversion, the
humidity/moisture is not as much of a concern as with the Lycoming. By
the time you are ready to crank the engine, the fuel pumps have already
remixed the fuel and it just gets burned, same as in the car. When
flying, the fuel is constantly being remixed as well, so less concern of
separation at altitude.
> Also, mogas does attack some formulations of Proseal. I'm sure you
> want to redo your tanks.
>
No worries about that in my Sportsman - one piece tanks, no
proseal! :-) The fuel system components and engine in my aircraft are
all compatible with the use of automotive fuel containing ethanol.
I do not know about compatibility with Proseal, so anyone
contemplating the use of mogas with ethanol in tanks using proseal
should research it and verify. It is possible that those already
running automotive conversions in their RVs have done this, so that may
be a good place to start the research.
> Good luck on doing a full, competent overhaul for $2000. I've done
> enough auto engines to know that isn't happening today.
> I can certainly do a Lycoming for less than $20K unless major
> components are worn out.
>
Even if it were 3k for the engine overhaul, still a far cry from
$15k to $20k.
> Whether you pay for the labor or do it yourself, you are still looking
> at a good 40 hours worth of work.
> No where are you accounting for the cost of overhauling the PSRU every
> 500 hours or so, and the cost of removing and installing it.
>
Curious, where are you getting the 500 hours for TBO of the PSRU?
Also, where did you get the 1000 hours for overhauling an automotive
engine? I'm very interested in any data that you have that would
validate those TBO figures. Thanks!
The cost of removing and reinstalling the auto engine from the
airframe, in terms of dollars or time, is about the same as with the
Lyc, so I'd consider that a wash. If I'm replacing the engine and PSRU
(not overhauling them), it is simply a matter of reinstalling, so no
time spent on the overhaul itself. If overhauling, the time involved
should also be similar to the time to overhaul the Lyc, so again a wash.
A brand new PSRU is about $4500. I do not know the cost of the
overhaul, but let's say maybe $3k to replace the internals. If you have
a more exact number we can recalculate. If we estimate high at a $3k
engine overhaul and $3k PSRU overhaul, that is a total of about $6k. So
you could overhaul the automotive setup 3 times for approximately the
same cost as overhauling the Lyc once.
-Dj
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