Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:14 AM - Wing root fairings (Robert Brunkenhoefer)
2. 07:47 AM - US Customs (Les Kearney)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: Wing root fairings (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
4. 08:37 AM - Re: Wing root fairings (Robert Brunkenhoefer)
5. 08:51 AM - Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Vernon Smith)
6. 08:55 AM - Re: Wing root fairings (pascal)
7. 09:14 AM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Rene Felker)
8. 09:38 AM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Robin Marks)
9. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG (Bill DeRouchey)
10. 10:55 AM - OSH Wrap Up (Perry, Phil)
11. 12:05 PM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Marcus Cooper)
12. 12:24 PM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Vernon Smith)
13. 03:30 PM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (jkreidler)
14. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (David McNeill)
15. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Linn Walters)
16. 06:40 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Miller John)
17. 06:56 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Linn Walters)
18. 07:03 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Miller John)
19. 07:15 PM - Re: Forward Slips (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
20. 07:20 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Jim)
21. 07:21 PM - Re: Forward Slips (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
22. 07:43 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Linn Walters)
23. 07:43 PM - Re: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG (Chris)
24. 07:43 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Miller John)
25. 07:43 PM - Re: Forward Slips (David McNeill)
26. 07:50 PM - Re: Forward Slips (David McNeill)
27. 08:02 PM - mounting steps (rvdave)
28. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Kelly McMullen)
29. 08:15 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Linn Walters)
30. 08:21 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Tim Olson)
31. 08:26 PM - Fw: Forward Slips (Miller John)
32. 09:13 PM - Re: mounting steps (Jeff Carpenter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Wing root fairings |
Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the
warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big
detours for weather.
Sent from my iPhone
Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
520 Lawrence St.
Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
Phone: 361-888-8808
Facsimile: 361-888-6753
robert@brunklaw.com
Message 2
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Hi All
While making the flight to KOSH, I have the chance to meet a very helpful
CBP officer who also provided the attached document. It lists key links for
info about how to cross the border and not get a F18 escort.
Cheers
Les
Message 3
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| Subject: | Wing root fairings |
I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings
Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the
warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big
detours for weather.
Sent from my iPhone
Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
520 Lawrence St.
Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
Phone: 361-888-8808
Facsimile: 361-888-6753
robert@brunklaw.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root fairings |
how do i contact jesse?robert
On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:47 AM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> >
>
> I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer
> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings
>
> >
>
> Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the
> warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big
> detours for weather.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
> Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
> 520 Lawrence St.
> Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
> Phone: 361-888-8808
> Facsimile: 361-888-6753
> robert@brunklaw.com
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Hi All=2C
Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test?
Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks
two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before
the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fue
l tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any
help would be greatly appreciated.
Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT=3B finishing)
_________________________________________________________________
Get free photo software from Windows Live
http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:e
n-US:SI_PH_software:082009
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root fairings |
Jesse is on this list- jesse@saintaviation.com;
I am intrigued to see photos of the fairings in question.
Pascal
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert Brunkenhoefer" <rebrunk42@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing root fairings
> <rebrunk42@gmail.com>
>
> how do i contact jesse?robert
> On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:47 AM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
>> <rvbuilder@sausen.net
>> >
>>
>> I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Robert
>> Brunkenhoefer
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings
>>
>> <rebrunk42@gmail.com
>> >
>>
>> Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the
>> warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big
>> detours for weather.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
>> Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
>> 520 Lawrence St.
>> Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
>> Phone: 361-888-8808
>> Facsimile: 361-888-6753
>> robert@brunklaw.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Yes. I have a leak on the top of my right tank. In the walk area. Only
leaks with full tanks. Took months for the leak to appear. It is under my
3m walk area and is minor, so I have done nothing to fix it.
Also, I flew 410RV (Vans number 1) for my transition training and it also
had leaks in the same area.
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:51 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
Hi All,
Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test?
Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks
two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before
the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fuel
tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any
help would be greatly appreciated.
Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT; finishing)
_____
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.
<http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
US:SI_PH_software:082009>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
The hassle is not re-checking and finding a leak after painting. Another
solution is to paint that section of the wing all blue so the fuel
stains don't show!
Robin
Do Not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:51 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
Hi All,
Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure
test?
Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my
tanks two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to
paint before the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle
to fill the fuel tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks
before painting. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT; finishing)
________________________________
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.
<http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
L
:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
Guys-
I have not been following this thread so my comments may have already been
covered.
-
The-best place to locate a magnometer (and/or-the AHRS if they do not i
nterfer with one another) -is on a shelf-that spans the fuselage latera
lly between the three longeron bolts that secure the aft seat belt attachme
nt. This location has four good advantages:
-
I have measured the magnetic interference and this location is the farthest
distance from the autopilot elevator servo and the elevator trim servo. Do
not underestimate the interference from the little trim servo - it is more
of a problem than the autopilot.
-
A shelf in this orientation is automatically aligned with the pitch and rol
l-axis.
-
If the sensor contains accelerometers or rate gyros it will function more a
ccurately along the centerline of the fuselage than a wing tip.
-
This location is far from the baggage compartment and the unpredictable mag
netic forces contained in the unpredictable baggage.
-
Also - you will never get a sensor accurately aligned in a wing tip. I just
had a good example of how the wing will move about-between ground and ai
r.
-
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB
-
-
-
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com> wrote:
From: Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
Ok, I'll rethink too then.
Thanks
Chris
#40072
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:31 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
OK,
I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes wit
h
the magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer
than 18" to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for th
e
AHRS is, but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing
tip as first choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from
everything. Back to the drawing board....
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &
Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#255821
le, List Admin.
Message 10
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Unfortunately I didn't make Oshkosh before the majority of the folks
started departing, but I still had a chance to visit a few RV-10's and
meet some builders too. Oh yeah, Oshkosh is huge and it took me 2 days
to find 55th and Lindbergh. So that didn't help either.
I had a chance to talk with Bob Condrey before he packed up and headed
out. Spent some time with Adrian Moses, and also spent a few hours with
David McNeil picking his brain on Saturday.
Lots of fun and a few lessons learned. It's a great way to share some
ideas, tips, and gotchas all at once.
We'll make it earlier in the week next year!
Phil
Message 11
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| Subject: | Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
I thought I was leak free until painting the airplane with over 100 hours on
it. Turns out there was a very slight leak from 2 rivets that went
unnoticed with the pressure test as well as flying. Unfortunately it
doesn't take much fuel to trash the paint.
I'd recommend you do anything you can to verify no leaks to prevent pain and
suffering later on.
Marcus
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 11:51 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
Hi All,
Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test?
Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks
two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before
the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fuel
tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any
help would be greatly appreciated.
Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT; finishing)
_____
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.
<http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
US:SI_PH_software:082009>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
That is too funny! Of course watch them change the color of our fuel.
Vern
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
From: robin1@mrmoisture.com
The hassle is not re-checking and finding a leak after painting. Another so
lution is to paint that section of the wing all blue so the fuel stains don
=92t show!
Robin
Do Not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Tuesday=2C August 04=2C 2009 8:51 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
Hi All=2C
Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test?
Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks
two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before
the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fue
l tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any
help would be greatly appreciated.
Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT=3B finishing)
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here. http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.co
m/contribution
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have quick-build
tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as though all of the leaking
rivets occur in the same locations. I hesitate to call it a design flaw, but
it is definitely an opportunity for design improvement.
We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went around a while
back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and maybe pressure, or vacuum.
Who was that, and how did you do it? This was one of the face to face conversations
I wanted to have with Vans at the show. After talking to Ken K. he suggested
we remove the tanks, cut an access hole in the back of the tank, repair
the rivets, patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!! Has anyone removed
a tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible to get at the bolts
going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem like it was possible.
I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save a ton of time
and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems. OK, so I think I have
fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the problem. Green loctite didn't seem
to work, someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight
vacuum to the tank and letting it cure. I have heard some used a Cherrymax
rivet with pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to use. Anyone with
any ideas?
Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard side of the
tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not trying to bash Van's,
I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k car, the gas tank wouldn't leak,
and if it did it wouldn't be my problem. To those of you going slow-build,
read this every time you question your decision, at least the mistakes are your
own. OK, rant off, thanks for listening.
Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying #40617
4 Partner Build
Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Yes it is possible to remove the tanks. They work the same as Piper Cherokee
tanks. Fortunately I have had no problems with the QB tanks although I did
not remove them as Vans/plans suggested, figuring that why disturb what
someone else had already tested.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jkreidler
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL
--> <jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have
quick-build tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as though all
of the leaking rivets occur in the same locations. I hesitate to call it a
design flaw, but it is definitely an opportunity for design improvement.
We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went around a
while back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and maybe pressure, or
vacuum. Who was that, and how did you do it? This was one of the face to
face conversations I wanted to have with Vans at the show. After talking to
Ken K. he suggested we remove the tanks, cut an access hole in the back of
the tank, repair the rivets, patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!!
Has anyone removed a tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible
to get at the bolts going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem
like it was possible.
I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save a ton
of time and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems. OK, so I think
I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the problem. Green loctite
didn't seem to work, someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK,
applying a slight vacuum to the tank and letting it cure. I have heard some
used a Cherrymax rivet with pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to
use. Anyone with any ideas?
Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard side of
the tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not trying to bash
Van's, I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k car, the gas tank
wouldn't leak, and if it did it wouldn't be my problem. To those of you
going slow-build, read this every time you question your decision, at least
the mistakes are your own. OK, rant off, thanks for listening.
Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying #40617
4 Partner Build
Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
jkreidler wrote:
> <jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
>
> I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have
> quick-build tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as
> though all of the leaking rivets occur in the same locations. I
> hesitate to call it a design flaw, but it is definitely an
> opportunity for design improvement.
>
> We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went
> around a while back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and
> maybe pressure, or vacuum. Who was that, and how did you do it?
Could have been me. Use minor vacuum ..... put the vacuum hose in the
filler, plug the vents, and have someone hold a rag around the
filler/hose joint ..... you don't want to seal it!!! Causes tanks to
shrink funny!
> This was one of the face to face conversations I wanted to have with
> Vans at the show. After talking to Ken K. he suggested we remove the
> tanks, cut an access hole in the back of the tank, repair the rivets,
> patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!! Has anyone removed a
> tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible to get at the
> bolts going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem like it
> was possible.
>
> I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save
> a ton of time and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems.
> OK, so I think I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the
> problem. Green loctite didn't seem to work, someone had suggested
> thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight vacuum to the tank
> and letting it cure. I have heard some used a Cherrymax rivet with
> pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to use. Anyone with any
> ideas?
The green Loctite should work ...... use the vacuum to suck some MEK
into the leak to clean it. If the MEK disappears in large quantities,
the hole may be too large for the green Loctite trick. In that case I'd
try the thinned MEK/vacuum step. Failing that, I'd use the Cherry rivet
fix before I removed the tank, cut a hole .... a big leak waiting to
happen ....
>
> Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard
> side of the tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not
> trying to bash Van's, I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k
> car, the gas tank wouldn't leak, and if it did it wouldn't be my
> problem. To those of you going slow-build, read this every time you
> question your decision, at least the mistakes are your own. OK, rant
> off, thanks for listening.
Either way .... your workmanship or theirs ..... the leaks are still
there. It's a problem when you drill a hole and then fill it with a
rivet, cover it with sealant ..... where you can ..... and hope for the
best. Your 50K car has a two piece tank with rolled edges .... and yes,
they do sometimes leak. Usually not bad enough to notice a stain on the
garage floor .... until the warranty expires!!! However, and I speak
from experience ..... auto fuel doesn't leave a stain like 100LL so it's
really easy to overlook it.Linn
>
> Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying #40617 4 Partner Build Wayne Elsner -
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
down).
What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
try to depart underneath.....not good).
At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure
from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can
quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the
stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane
recovered itself (usually very nose low).
The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded
by the wing low and opposite rudder.
Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder
than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
(above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves
the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your
pants.
Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release
the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the
neutral position.
Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and
use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
Hope this helps out
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
>
> I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree
> flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as
> it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its
> travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became
> much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
> this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
>
> After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one
> had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this
> while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing,
> although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the
> floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,
> he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose
> the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that
> maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were
> forced to slow down and land without flaps.
>
> I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the
> same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.
>
> Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> limited to our copy.
>
> After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the
> unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing
> a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced
> before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the
> risk of what replies are sure to come.
>
> I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very
> least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if
> the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to
> perform.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
> 4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What is
the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and
cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin. And
guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone have
experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're sensitive
to flaming!
Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your clothes
on!!!
Miller John wrote:
> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down).
>
> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
> flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
> slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
> try to depart underneath.....not good).
>
> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder
> and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it
> to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you
> (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight
> maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the
> departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we
> released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself
> (usually very nose low).
>
> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by
> the wing low and opposite rudder.
>
> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
> an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
> ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
> true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than
> the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>
> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
> (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
> do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the
> approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.
>
> Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
> idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
> you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the
> rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral
> position.
>
> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use
> about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>
> Hope this helps out
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
I did not let it depart.
It would probably develop into a spin after the departure if the
controls were held (aft stick, left or right aileron with opposite
rudder).
The elevator was holding back pressure to keep the at entry condition
relative to the horizon.
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 4, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Linn Walters wrote:
> >
>
>
> When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What
> is the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and
> cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin.
> And guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone
> have experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're
> sensitive to flaming!
> Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your
> clothes on!!!
>
> Miller John wrote:
>> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
>> down).
>> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from
>> controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.
>> Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine
>> torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good).
>> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
>> rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
>> definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
>> pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional
>> departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the
>> AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back
>> pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether
>> until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).
>> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness,
>> compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder.
>> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip
>> the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon
>> to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is
>> especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter
>> height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap
>> slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in
>> case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for
>> yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the
>> seat of your pants. Trim your airplane up for hands off at about
>> 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near
>> level flight attitude. Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your
>> pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously
>> releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position.
>> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low
>> and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>> Hope this helps out
>> grumpy
>> N184JM
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90 degrees angle
of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here remember that or we will talk!!!
He said with a big smile!!!!
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What is
the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and
cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin. And
guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone have
experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're sensitive
to flaming!
Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your clothes
on!!!
Miller John wrote:
> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down).
>
> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
> flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
> slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
> try to depart underneath.....not good).
>
> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder
> and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it
> to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you
> (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight
> maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the
> departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we
> released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself
> (usually very nose low).
>
> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by
> the wing low and opposite rudder.
>
> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
> an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
> ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
> true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than
> the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>
> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
> (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
> do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the
> approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.
>
> Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
> idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
> you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the
> rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral
> position.
>
> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use
> about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>
> Hope this helps out
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
Sir Grumpy,
What exactly do you mean by
"Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW or ????
I
don't understand that term.
Jim Combs (N312F)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with
flaps
down).
What Jason describes is the early onset to a
departure from controlled
flight (depart) due to loss of directional
stability. Much worse
slipping to the left than to the right due to
engine torque (tends to
try to depart underneath.....not good).
At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with
full
rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure
from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can
quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the
stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the
airplane
recovered itself (usually very nose low).
The
departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded
by
the wing low and opposite rudder.
Somewhere in my early RV
days, I was told that if you want to slip the
an RV, you need to make
sure the nose is well below the horizon to
ensure that you do not
lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
true of the earlier RV
models and their even shorter height rudder
than the -10. Avoid
level attitude or nose up slips.
I would encourage each of you
-10 owners to practice the no flap slip
(above 5,000' AGL in to have
a comfortable recovery margin in case you
do inadvertently depart the
bird). You need to feel for yourselves
the approach to departure
feel that you get through the seat of your
pants.
Trim
your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
idle,
then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
you
feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release
the
rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the
neutral position.
Then remember the secret to a slip in the
-10: keep the nose low and
use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with
flaps.
Hope this helps out
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com
wrote:
>
> I would like to pass along a flight test
experience I had.
>
> I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note
well below Va) (zero degree
> flap setting), the rudder pedal was
fairly hard to push, however as
> it approached what I would guess
to be just beyond the middle of its
> travel the 'tone' of the
airframe changed, and the rudder became
> much easier to apply,
the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> and felt as if it
was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> just an abrupt
yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> back to
neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> almost
felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
>
this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
>
> After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no
one
> had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about
this
> while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same
thing,
> although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder
pedal to the
> floor. He could not explain exactly what was
causing the problem,
> he thought it might be dihedral stability.
I told him the I suppose
> the right answer is "don't do
that", he quickly replied that
> maneuver may be required if
the flap motor was lost, and you were
> forced to slow down and
land without flaps.
>
> I also spoke with Alex D. about
this, he has also experienced the
> same thing, he said it is
worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> still there at 0
degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> of 'real'
flaps and was able to do full slips.
>
> Ken K. asked me
(with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> rudder all the
way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> At least not
before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> limited to
our copy.
>
> After experiencing this I have a few
takeaways. 1) Expect the
> unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine
the surprise while performing
> a fairly standard maneuver and
getting a result never experienced
> before. 2) Don't do that....
3) Share what is learned even at the
> risk of what replies are
sure to come.
>
> I say don't do that but I believe Ken
has a valid argument, at very
> least we should all understand
what our aircraft behave like even if
> the maneuver is at the
fringe of what we would normally expect to
> perform.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
>
4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner -
Jason Kreidler
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
Great info....always stood behind the stabilized approach method and the slip is
always in the back of my mind...my -10 will drop a wing in a deep stall if you
don't dance on the rudder...as will most airplanes....played hard coming back
from OSH with the rudder coupled with the ailerons trying to hold track in
40 kt cross winds...aircraft tracked very well but never fully hands off..
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote:
>
> That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90
> degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here
> remember that or we will talk!!! He said with a big smile!!!! Sent
> via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
Hi Rick! I have my Pitts to give me my aerobatic fix. Does your
insurance really have the 90 degree prohibition?? I have no clue what
my insurance says .... underwritten by Mexican company! I have no wish
to get wild in the -10. I've seen enough examples of what happens when
you fly out of the category!!!
Linn
Still thinking of renting the car.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG |
Good points Bill. I decided to make the shelf for the magnetometers just
ahead of the seat belt attach. I am putting another shelf forward of that
slightly aft of the battery to hold the AHRS. Both units will be completely
aligned though separated based on GRT's inputs that the AHRS can cause some
disturbance in the magnetometer.
-Chris Lucas
#40072
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
Guys-
I have not been following this thread so my comments may have already been
covered.
The best place to locate a magnometer (and/or the AHRS if they do not
interfer with one another) is on a shelf that spans the fuselage laterally
between the three longeron bolts that secure the aft seat belt attachment.
This location has four good advantages:
I have measured the magnetic interference and this location is the farthest
distance from the autopilot elevator servo and the elevator trim servo. Do
not underestimate the interference from the little trim servo - it is more
of a problem than the autopilot.
A shelf in this orientation is automatically aligned with the pitch and roll
axis.
If the sensor contains accelerometers or rate gyros it will function more
accurately along the centerline of the fuselage than a wing tip.
This location is far from the baggage compartment and the unpredictable
magnetic forces contained in the unpredictable baggage.
Also - you will never get a sensor accurately aligned in a wing tip. I just
had a good example of how the wing will move about between ground and air.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com> wrote:
From: Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=toaster73@embarqmail.com> >
Ok, I'll rethink too then.
Thanks
Chris
#40072
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=owner-rv10-list-server@matroni
cs.com>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=owner-rv10-list-server@matroni
cs.com> ] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:31 PM
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rv10-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG
<http://us.mc344.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=johngoodman@earthlink.net> >
OK,
I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes with
the magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer
than 18" to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for the
AHRS is, but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing
tip as first choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from
everything. Back to the drawing board....
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &
Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#25582/www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV10-List
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#255821> "
target=_blank>http://www.matronicatronics.com/" ; -Matt
Dralle, List Admin=========
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled flight
- usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but not
always) induced by cross controls to start with.
Longitudinal stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and
rudder) is lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling
moment and possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing
aircraft). Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than
tumble. Which way it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by
torque effects of the engine.
Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in
today, it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward pitching
moment to boot. Impossible to recover from in the traffic pattern.
The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're watching
the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this maneuver). the
Yaw is most quickly felt through the seat of the pants - going
sideways in the seat.
Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your first
response must be to release back stick pressure and neutralize
ailerons and rudder. That will keep the departure from happening.
Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for this.....
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Jim wrote:
> Sir Grumpy,
>
> What exactly do you mean by "Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW
> or ????
>
> I don't understand that term.
>
> Jim Combs (N312F)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
> down).
>
> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
> flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
> slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
> try to depart underneath.....not good).
>
> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
> rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
> definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
> pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure
> from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can
> quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the
> stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane
> recovered itself (usually very nose low).
>
> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded
> by the wing low and opposite rudder.
>
> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
> an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
> ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
> true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder
> than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>
> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
> (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
> do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves
> the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your
> pants.
>
> Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
> idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
> you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release
> the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the
> neutral position.
>
> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and
> use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>
> Hope this helps out
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
>
> On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> >
> > I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
> >
> > I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree
> > flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as
> > it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its
> > travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became
> > much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> > and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> > just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> > back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> > almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
> > this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> > airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
> >
> > After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one
> > had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this
> > while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing,
> > although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the
> > floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,
> > he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose
> > the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that
> > maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were
> > forced to slow down and land without flaps.
> >
> > I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the
> > same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> > still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> > of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.
> >
> > Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> > rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> > At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> > limited to our copy.
> >
> > After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the
> > unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing
> > a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced
> > before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the
> > risk of what replies are sure to come.
> >
> > I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very
> > least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if
> > the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to
> > perform.
> >
> > Thanks, Jason Kreidler
> >
> > N44YH - Flying
> > 4 Partner Build #40617
> > Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 25
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Agree. Only really aggressive slip was from 400 AGL on a one mile final out
of an RNAV 6 in weather to minimums. Flaps were reflexed or perhaps zero,
KIAS was 100 and power was at idle and prop full forward. Since I was flying
from the right seat the nose went left and down, ailerons right, Slip
continued to at least 20 degrees nose left until about 50 AGL. Touchdown was
about 2000 ft down a 5000 ft runway in moderate rain. The left seat pilot
was admonishing me not to skid; the prop in flat pitch and engine at idle
were enough to slow and stop. My advice is that in any slip get the nose
down, the objective is to lose the altitude without a significant increase
in airspeed. You definitely don't want the stall one wing and it is likely
that the airspeed indication will not be accurate. It is more accurate
because of the static ports on each side of the aircraft but the airflow to
the pitot will be skewed.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down).
What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse slipping
to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart
underneath.....not good).
At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder and
opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to
depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you (I did
literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight maneuvers
in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply
unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick
altogether until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).
The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by the
wing low and opposite rudder.
Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an
RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that
you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially true of the
earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10. Avoid
level attitude or nose up slips.
I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip (above
5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do
inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the
approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.
Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting idle,
then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once you feel
that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the rudder while
simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position.
Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use
about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
Hope this helps out
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote:
I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap
setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached
what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of
the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the
airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap
ends. It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply
opposite rudder to return back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder
stop. The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance
during this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had
performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at
Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it
quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor. He could not explain
exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral
stability. I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he
quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost,
and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps.
I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same
thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there
at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and
was able to do full slips.
Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all
the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. At least not before
understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy.
After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the unexpected, I
hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard
maneuver and getting a result never experienced before. 2) Don't do
that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure
to come.
I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least we
should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver is
at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform.
Thanks, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying
4 Partner Build #40617
Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===================================
nics.com
===================================
w.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
=
Message 26
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It is called a crossed controlled stall; the aircraft will snap over and go
vertical in less than a second because one wing is producing lift and the
other is stalled. At low altitude always fatal.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
Sir Grumpy,
What exactly do you mean by "Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW or ????
I don't understand that term.
Jim Combs (N312F)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
down).
What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled
flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse
slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to
try to depart underneath.....not good).
At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure
from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can
quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the
stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane
recovered itself (usually very nose low).
The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded
by the wing low and opposite rudder.
Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the
an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to
ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially
true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder
than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip
(above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you
do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves
the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your
pants.
Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once
you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release
the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the
neutral position.
Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and
use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
Hope this helps out
grumpy
N184JM
On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote:
>
> I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.
>
> I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree
> flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as
> it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its
> travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became
> much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,
> and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,
> just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return
> back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder
> almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during
> this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain
> airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).
>
> After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one
> had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this
> while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing,
> although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the
> floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,
> he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose
> the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that
> maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were
> forced to slow down and land without flaps.
>
> I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the
> same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and
> still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches
> of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.
>
> Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the
> rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.
> At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is
> limited to our copy.
>
> After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the
> unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing
> a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced
> before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the
> risk of what replies are sure to come.
>
> I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very
> least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if
> the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to
> perform.
>
> Thanks, Jason Kreidler
>
> N44YH - Flying
> 4 Partner Build #40617
> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler
>
>
Message 27
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I'm in the process of mounting steps on a QB, the steps were pre-drilled and according
to the drawings the weld should be flush with the skin, which it isn't,
and the measurement from rear spar should be 45 1/2, which it's about 46 with
fuselage leveled. I could either let it go as is, move step to correct position
and re-drill 90 deg from previous hole, or order new steps and align with
existing hole. What are your experiences as to how your steps came out in relation
to plans?
Dave Ford
--------
Dave Ford
RV6 flying
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256093#256093
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL |
Folks, MEK is a poor second choice for thinning proseal. Toluene is the
correct thinner. However, rather than messing with thinning, just buy
one cartridge of A-2 compound, as it is already the correct consistency
for brushing. Perhaps $20.
In fact, the Mooney method for tank sealing is to do fillets and gap
seals with B compound, then brush A compound over the fillets and all
rivet heads, nutplates, bolts, etc. That is followed by a "cherry juice"
top coat that is brushed on, two coats, to protect the proseal from
effects of fuel, ethanol, and most anything else that gets in there. So
Vans approach of only using B-2 with no access panel is a minimalist
approach. My Mooney has 4 access plates in the design, and yes, there is
a different access panel version of proseal.
jkreidler wrote:
This topic went around a while back and someone mentioned they
applied heat, and maybe pressure, or
vacuum.
>
OK, so I think I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the
problem. Green loctite didn't seem to work,
someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight
vacuum to the tank and letting it
cure.
> Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying #40617
> 4 Partner Build
> Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
Miller John wrote:
> Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled flight -
> usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but not always)
> induced by cross controls to start with.
>
> Longitudinal stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and
> rudder) is lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment
> and possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft).
> Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble. Which way
> it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque effects of the
> engine.
Hmmm .... the airplane shouldn't snap roll unless the rudder and
elevator is applied aggressively. Read "shouldn't" again. If one wing
doesn't stall, then the snap roll doesn't occur.
>
> Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in today,
> it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward pitching moment to
> boot. Impossible to recover from in the traffic pattern.
I'm curious .... do you have the experience (I think you do)to try this
at altitude? The fact that a common forward slip morphs into some other
flight regime is troubling to me.
>
> The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're watching
> the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this maneuver). the Yaw
> is most quickly felt through the seat of the pants - going sideways in
> the seat.
>
> Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your first
> response must be to release back stick pressure and neutralize ailerons
> and rudder. That will keep the departure from happening.
>
> Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for this.....
The mental picture of an A7 in a slip causes me some chuckles. Did you
really???
When I read the original poster of the rudder thread my thoughts were
that the rudder was blanked by the wing somehow .... but I'd just have
to be there. Interesting thread.
Linn
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Slips |
Rick,
Make sure that if you're going to hit the ground, you NEVER do it
with bank angles of over 90 degrees or inverted. If you always
try to hit the ground wings level, 70-80kts, slightly nose above
the horizon, there shouldn't be many opportunities for you to
use in-flight insurance. ;)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote:
>
> That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90
> degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here
> remember that or we will talk!!! He said with a big smile!!!! Sent
> via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Linn Walters
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:55:04 To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
>
>
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
>
> When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What is
> the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and
> cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin.
> And guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone
> have experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're
> sensitive to flaming! Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you
> can do with your clothes on!!!
>
> Miller John wrote:
>> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps
>> down).
>>
>> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from
>> controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.
>> Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine
>> torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good).
>>
>> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full
>> rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can
>> definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your
>> pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional
>> departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the
>> AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back
>> pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether
>> until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).
>>
>> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness,
>> compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder.
>>
>> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip
>> the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon
>> to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is
>> especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter
>> height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.
>>
>>
>> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap
>> slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in
>> case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for
>> yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the
>> seat of your pants.
>>
>> Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting
>> idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude.
>> Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release
>> release the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back
>> pressure to the neutral position.
>>
>> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low
>> and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.
>>
>> Hope this helps out grumpy N184JM
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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Begin forwarded message:
> From: Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com>
> Date: August 4, 2009 10:24:28 PM CDT
> To: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips
>
> Over 4,000 hrs in single seat fighters, 1,700 in the A-7. Taught
> departure training for years. A-7 would depart at 400 kts (very
> violent, often tumbling end over end) or it would depart at 150 kts
> - very slow motion-like, with near vertical (down) nose position to
> start recovery. High speed departures (after tumbling) rarely had
> nose down more than 30 degrees or so.
>
> Today, there was no "aggressive" rudder or elevator input - merely
> held what i had as airspeed bled off.
>
> Slipped fighters all the time, even though we had speed brakes.
> With the swept wing fast movers, you ALWAYS kept the nose low and
> the speed up if you did a slip......
>
> Don't think there's an airplane I've flown that I didn't routinely
> slip when needed......just keep the nose low!
>
> On Aug 4, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Linn Walters wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> Miller John wrote:
>>> Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled
>>> flight - usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but
>>> not always) induced by cross controls to start with. Longitudinal
>>> stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and rudder) is
>>> lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment and
>>> possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft).
>>> Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble.
>>> Which way it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque
>>> effects of the engine.
>> Hmmm .... the airplane shouldn't snap roll unless the rudder and
>> elevator is applied aggressively. Read "shouldn't" again. If one
>> wing doesn't stall, then the snap roll doesn't occur.
>>> Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in
>>> today, it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward
>>> pitching moment to boot. Impossible to recover from in the
>>> traffic pattern.
>> I'm curious .... do you have the experience (I think you do)to try
>> this at altitude? The fact that a common forward slip morphs into
>> some other flight regime is troubling to me.
>>> The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're
>>> watching the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this
>>> maneuver). the Yaw is most quickly felt through the seat of the
>>> pants - going sideways in the seat.
>>> Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your
>>> first response must be to release back stick pressure and
>>> neutralize ailerons and rudder. That will keep the departure from
>>> happening.
>>> Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for
>>> this.....
>> The mental picture of an A7 in a slip causes me some chuckles. Did
>> you really???
>>
>> When I read the original poster of the rudder thread my thoughts
>> were that the rudder was blanked by the wing somehow .... but I'd
>> just have to be there. Interesting thread.
>> Linn
>>> grumpy
>>> N184JM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: mounting steps |
Hi Dave,
From what I remember of a conversation with Vans, the step position
relative to the rear spar has more to do with clearing the flaps when
extended than anything else. If your step is canted a bit further aft
than specified, I don't think you have a problem. You don't say how
far from flush the weld is to the skin. Mine stopped at the edge of
the widest edge of the weld bead... which didn't seem all that "flush."
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Doors. Ugh!
On Aug 4, 2009, at 8:01 PM, rvdave wrote:
>
> I'm in the process of mounting steps on a QB, the steps were pre-
> drilled and according to the drawings the weld should be flush with
> the skin, which it isn't, and the measurement from rear spar should
> be 45 1/2, which it's about 46 with fuselage leveled. I could
> either let it go as is, move step to correct position and re-drill
> 90 deg from previous hole, or order new steps and align with
> existing hole. What are your experiences as to how your steps came
> out in relation to plans?
>
> Dave Ford
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 flying
> RV10 building
> Cadillac, MI
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256093#256093
>
>
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