---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/04/09: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:14 AM - Wing root fairings (Robert Brunkenhoefer) 2. 07:47 AM - US Customs (Les Kearney) 3. 07:48 AM - Re: Wing root fairings (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 4. 08:37 AM - Re: Wing root fairings (Robert Brunkenhoefer) 5. 08:51 AM - Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Vernon Smith) 6. 08:55 AM - Re: Wing root fairings (pascal) 7. 09:14 AM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Rene Felker) 8. 09:38 AM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Robin Marks) 9. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG (Bill DeRouchey) 10. 10:55 AM - OSH Wrap Up (Perry, Phil) 11. 12:05 PM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Marcus Cooper) 12. 12:24 PM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Vernon Smith) 13. 03:30 PM - Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (jkreidler) 14. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (David McNeill) 15. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Linn Walters) 16. 06:40 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Miller John) 17. 06:56 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Linn Walters) 18. 07:03 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Miller John) 19. 07:15 PM - Re: Forward Slips (ricksked@embarqmail.com) 20. 07:20 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Jim) 21. 07:21 PM - Re: Forward Slips (ricksked@embarqmail.com) 22. 07:43 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Linn Walters) 23. 07:43 PM - Re: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG (Chris) 24. 07:43 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Miller John) 25. 07:43 PM - Re: Forward Slips (David McNeill) 26. 07:50 PM - Re: Forward Slips (David McNeill) 27. 08:02 PM - mounting steps (rvdave) 28. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL (Kelly McMullen) 29. 08:15 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Linn Walters) 30. 08:21 PM - Re: Forward Slips (Tim Olson) 31. 08:26 PM - Fw: Forward Slips (Miller John) 32. 09:13 PM - Re: mounting steps (Jeff Carpenter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:18 AM PST US From: Robert Brunkenhoefer Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big detours for weather. Sent from my iPhone Robert E. Brunkenhoefer Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C. 520 Lawrence St. Corpus Christi, Texas 78401 Phone: 361-888-8808 Facsimile: 361-888-6753 robert@brunklaw.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:34 AM PST US From: "Les Kearney" Subject: RV10-List: US Customs Hi All While making the flight to KOSH, I have the chance to meet a very helpful CBP officer who also provided the attached document. It lists key links for info about how to cross the border and not get a F18 escort. Cheers Les ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:07 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Wing root fairings I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him. Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big detours for weather. Sent from my iPhone Robert E. Brunkenhoefer Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C. 520 Lawrence St. Corpus Christi, Texas 78401 Phone: 361-888-8808 Facsimile: 361-888-6753 robert@brunklaw.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:16 AM PST US From: Robert Brunkenhoefer Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing root fairings how do i contact jesse?robert On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:47 AM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > > > > I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of Robert Brunkenhoefer > Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings > > > > > Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the > warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big > detours for weather. > > Sent from my iPhone > > Robert E. Brunkenhoefer > Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C. > 520 Lawrence St. > Corpus Christi, Texas 78401 > Phone: 361-888-8808 > Facsimile: 361-888-6753 > robert@brunklaw.com > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:47 AM PST US From: Vernon Smith Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL Hi All=2C Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test? Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fue l tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT=3B finishing) _________________________________________________________________ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:e n-US:SI_PH_software:082009 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:43 AM PST US From: "pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing root fairings Jesse is on this list- jesse@saintaviation.com; I am intrigued to see photos of the fairings in question. Pascal -------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Brunkenhoefer" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:36 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing root fairings > > > how do i contact jesse?robert > On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:47 AM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > >> > > >> >> I think that was Jesse's plane. Check with him. >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Robert >> Brunkenhoefer >> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:17 AM >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Wing root fairings >> >> > > >> >> Where can I get wing root fairings like I saw on the rv10 over by the >> warbirds ?Robert flawless flying back to corpus christi with big >> detours for weather. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> Robert E. Brunkenhoefer >> Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C. >> 520 Lawrence St. >> Corpus Christi, Texas 78401 >> Phone: 361-888-8808 >> Facsimile: 361-888-6753 >> robert@brunklaw.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:27 AM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL Yes. I have a leak on the top of my right tank. In the walk area. Only leaks with full tanks. Took months for the leak to appear. It is under my 3m walk area and is minor, so I have done nothing to fix it. Also, I flew 410RV (Vans number 1) for my transition training and it also had leaks in the same area. Rene' Felker RV-10 N423CF Flying 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL Hi All, Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test? Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fuel tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT; finishing) _____ Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL From: "Robin Marks" The hassle is not re-checking and finding a leak after painting. Another solution is to paint that section of the wing all blue so the fuel stains don't show! Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL Hi All, Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test? Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fuel tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT; finishing) ________________________________ Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:45 AM PST US From: Bill DeRouchey Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG Guys- I have not been following this thread so my comments may have already been covered. - The-best place to locate a magnometer (and/or-the AHRS if they do not i nterfer with one another) -is on a shelf-that spans the fuselage latera lly between the three longeron bolts that secure the aft seat belt attachme nt. This location has four good advantages: - I have measured the magnetic interference and this location is the farthest distance from the autopilot elevator servo and the elevator trim servo. Do not underestimate the interference from the little trim servo - it is more of a problem than the autopilot. - A shelf in this orientation is automatically aligned with the pitch and rol l-axis. - If the sensor contains accelerometers or rate gyros it will function more a ccurately along the centerline of the fuselage than a wing tip. - This location is far from the baggage compartment and the unpredictable mag netic forces contained in the unpredictable baggage. - Also - you will never get a sensor accurately aligned in a wing tip. I just had a good example of how the wing will move about-between ground and ai r. - Bill DeRouchey N939SB - - - --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Chris wrote: From: Chris Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG Ok, I'll rethink too then. Thanks Chris #40072 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:31 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG OK, I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes wit h the magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer than 18" to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for th e AHRS is, but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing tip as first choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from everything. Back to the drawing board.... John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel delivery soon. N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#255821 le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:03 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: OSH Wrap Up From: "Perry, Phil" Unfortunately I didn't make Oshkosh before the majority of the folks started departing, but I still had a chance to visit a few RV-10's and meet some builders too. Oh yeah, Oshkosh is huge and it took me 2 days to find 55th and Lindbergh. So that didn't help either. I had a chance to talk with Bob Condrey before he packed up and headed out. Spent some time with Adrian Moses, and also spent a few hours with David McNeil picking his brain on Saturday. Lots of fun and a few lessons learned. It's a great way to share some ideas, tips, and gotchas all at once. We'll make it earlier in the week next year! Phil ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:31 PM PST US From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL I thought I was leak free until painting the airplane with over 100 hours on it. Turns out there was a very slight leak from 2 rivets that went unnoticed with the pressure test as well as flying. Unfortunately it doesn't take much fuel to trash the paint. I'd recommend you do anything you can to verify no leaks to prevent pain and suffering later on. Marcus From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL Hi All, Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test? Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fuel tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT; finishing) _____ Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:26 PM PST US From: Vernon Smith Subject: RE: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL That is too funny! Of course watch them change the color of our fuel. Vern Subject: RE: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL From: robin1@mrmoisture.com The hassle is not re-checking and finding a leak after painting. Another so lution is to paint that section of the wing all blue so the fuel stains don =92t show! Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith Sent: Tuesday=2C August 04=2C 2009 8:51 AM Subject: RV10-List: Testing fuel tank with 100LL Hi All=2C Has anyone had fuel leaks on tanks that have passed the air pressure test? Here's why I ask. I built and air tested (per Van's instructions) my tanks two years ago and they tested fine. I am now getting ready to paint before the first flight and am wondering if it is worth the hassle to fill the fue l tanks with 100LL and let them set to check for leaks before painting. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Vern Smith #324 (hence forth know as N44QT=3B finishing) Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here. http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.co m/contribution _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail=AE . http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=PID233 91::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:34 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL From: "jkreidler" I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have quick-build tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as though all of the leaking rivets occur in the same locations. I hesitate to call it a design flaw, but it is definitely an opportunity for design improvement. We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went around a while back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and maybe pressure, or vacuum. Who was that, and how did you do it? This was one of the face to face conversations I wanted to have with Vans at the show. After talking to Ken K. he suggested we remove the tanks, cut an access hole in the back of the tank, repair the rivets, patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!! Has anyone removed a tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible to get at the bolts going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem like it was possible. I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save a ton of time and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems. OK, so I think I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the problem. Green loctite didn't seem to work, someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight vacuum to the tank and letting it cure. I have heard some used a Cherrymax rivet with pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to use. Anyone with any ideas? Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard side of the tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not trying to bash Van's, I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k car, the gas tank wouldn't leak, and if it did it wouldn't be my problem. To those of you going slow-build, read this every time you question your decision, at least the mistakes are your own. OK, rant off, thanks for listening. Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying #40617 4 Partner Build Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:07 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL Yes it is possible to remove the tanks. They work the same as Piper Cherokee tanks. Fortunately I have had no problems with the QB tanks although I did not remove them as Vans/plans suggested, figuring that why disturb what someone else had already tested. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jkreidler Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:27 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL --> I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have quick-build tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as though all of the leaking rivets occur in the same locations. I hesitate to call it a design flaw, but it is definitely an opportunity for design improvement. We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went around a while back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and maybe pressure, or vacuum. Who was that, and how did you do it? This was one of the face to face conversations I wanted to have with Vans at the show. After talking to Ken K. he suggested we remove the tanks, cut an access hole in the back of the tank, repair the rivets, patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!! Has anyone removed a tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible to get at the bolts going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem like it was possible. I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save a ton of time and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems. OK, so I think I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the problem. Green loctite didn't seem to work, someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight vacuum to the tank and letting it cure. I have heard some used a Cherrymax rivet with pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to use. Anyone with any ideas? Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard side of the tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not trying to bash Van's, I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k car, the gas tank wouldn't leak, and if it did it wouldn't be my problem. To those of you going slow-build, read this every time you question your decision, at least the mistakes are your own. OK, rant off, thanks for listening. Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying #40617 4 Partner Build Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:53 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL jkreidler wrote: > > > I would absolutely test the tanks before installing them. We have > quick-build tanks with leaking rivets on both sides. It seems as > though all of the leaking rivets occur in the same locations. I > hesitate to call it a design flaw, but it is definitely an > opportunity for design improvement. > > We tried the green loctite fix with no success. This topic went > around a while back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and > maybe pressure, or vacuum. Who was that, and how did you do it? Could have been me. Use minor vacuum ..... put the vacuum hose in the filler, plug the vents, and have someone hold a rag around the filler/hose joint ..... you don't want to seal it!!! Causes tanks to shrink funny! > This was one of the face to face conversations I wanted to have with > Vans at the show. After talking to Ken K. he suggested we remove the > tanks, cut an access hole in the back of the tank, repair the rivets, > patch the hole, and reinstall the tanks. WOW!! Has anyone removed a > tank after the bottom skin was on? Is it even possible to get at the > bolts going through the spar? At first glance it didn't seem like it > was possible. > > I need to get into the aircraft or auto racing industry I could save > a ton of time and effort if I could just dismiss quality problems. > OK, so I think I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the > problem. Green loctite didn't seem to work, someone had suggested > thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight vacuum to the tank > and letting it cure. I have heard some used a Cherrymax rivet with > pro-seal, I am not familiar with which rivet to use. Anyone with any > ideas? The green Loctite should work ...... use the vacuum to suck some MEK into the leak to clean it. If the MEK disappears in large quantities, the hole may be too large for the green Loctite trick. In that case I'd try the thinned MEK/vacuum step. Failing that, I'd use the Cherry rivet fix before I removed the tank, cut a hole .... a big leak waiting to happen .... > > Test those tanks!! Do not sit or set anything heavy on the inboard > side of the tanks. Quick-build workmanship is not guaranteed, not > trying to bash Van's, I love this airplane!! But if I bought a $50k > car, the gas tank wouldn't leak, and if it did it wouldn't be my > problem. To those of you going slow-build, read this every time you > question your decision, at least the mistakes are your own. OK, rant > off, thanks for listening. Either way .... your workmanship or theirs ..... the leaks are still there. It's a problem when you drill a hole and then fill it with a rivet, cover it with sealant ..... where you can ..... and hope for the best. Your 50K car has a two piece tank with rolled edges .... and yes, they do sometimes leak. Usually not bad enough to notice a stain on the garage floor .... until the warranty expires!!! However, and I speak from experience ..... auto fuel doesn't leave a stain like 100LL so it's really easy to overlook it.Linn > > Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying #40617 4 Partner Build Wayne Elsner - > Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:54 PM PST US From: Miller John Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down). What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good). At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low). The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder. Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants. Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position. Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. Hope this helps out grumpy N184JM On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote: > > I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. > > I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree > flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as > it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its > travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became > much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, > and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much, > just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return > back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder > almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during > this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain > airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). > > After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one > had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this > while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing, > although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the > floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, > he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose > the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that > maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were > forced to slow down and land without flaps. > > I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the > same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and > still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches > of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. > > Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the > rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. > At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is > limited to our copy. > > After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the > unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing > a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced > before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the > risk of what replies are sure to come. > > I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very > least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if > the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to > perform. > > Thanks, Jason Kreidler > > N44YH - Flying > 4 Partner Build #40617 > Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:26 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What is the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin. And guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone have experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're sensitive to flaming! Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your clothes on!!! Miller John wrote: > I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down). > > What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled > flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse > slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to > try to depart underneath.....not good). > > At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder > and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it > to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you > (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight > maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the > departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we > released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself > (usually very nose low). > > The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by > the wing low and opposite rudder. > > Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the > an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to > ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially > true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than > the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. > > I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip > (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you > do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the > approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants. > > Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting > idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once > you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the > rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral > position. > > Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use > about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. > > Hope this helps out > grumpy > N184JM > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:19 PM PST US From: Miller John Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips I did not let it depart. It would probably develop into a spin after the departure if the controls were held (aft stick, left or right aileron with opposite rudder). The elevator was holding back pressure to keep the at entry condition relative to the horizon. grumpy N184JM On Aug 4, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Linn Walters wrote: > > > > > When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What > is the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and > cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin. > And guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone > have experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're > sensitive to flaming! > Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your > clothes on!!! > > Miller John wrote: >> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps >> down). >> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from >> controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. >> Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine >> torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good). >> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full >> rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can >> definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your >> pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional >> departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the >> AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back >> pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether >> until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low). >> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, >> compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder. >> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip >> the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon >> to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is >> especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter >> height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. >> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap >> slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in >> case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for >> yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the >> seat of your pants. Trim your airplane up for hands off at about >> 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near >> level flight attitude. Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your >> pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously >> releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position. >> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low >> and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. >> Hope this helps out >> grumpy >> N184JM > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips From: ricksked@embarqmail.com That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90 degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here remember that or we will talk!!! He said with a big smile!!!! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What is the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin. And guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone have experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're sensitive to flaming! Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your clothes on!!! Miller John wrote: > I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down). > > What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled > flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse > slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to > try to depart underneath.....not good). > > At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder > and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it > to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you > (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight > maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the > departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we > released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself > (usually very nose low). > > The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by > the wing low and opposite rudder. > > Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the > an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to > ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially > true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than > the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. > > I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip > (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you > do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the > approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants. > > Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting > idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once > you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the > rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral > position. > > Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use > about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. > > Hope this helps out > grumpy > N184JM > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips From: "Jim" Sir Grumpy, What exactly do you mean by "Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW or ???? I don't understand that term. Jim Combs (N312F) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down). What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good). At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low). The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder. Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants. Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position. Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. Hope this helps out grumpy N184JM On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote: > > I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. > > I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree > flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as > it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its > travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became > much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, > and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much, > just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return > back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder > almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during > this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain > airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). > > After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one > had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this > while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing, > although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the > floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, > he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose > the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that > maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were > forced to slow down and land without flaps. > > I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the > same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and > still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches > of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. > > Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the > rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. > At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is > limited to our copy. > > After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the > unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing > a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced > before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the > risk of what replies are sure to come. > > I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very > least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if > the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to > perform. > > Thanks, Jason Kreidler > > N44YH - Flying > 4 Partner Build #40617 > Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips From: ricksked@embarqmail.com Great info....always stood behind the stabilized approach method and the slip is always in the back of my mind...my -10 will drop a wing in a deep stall if you don't dance on the rudder...as will most airplanes....played hard coming back from OSH with the rudder coupled with the ailerons trying to hold track in 40 kt cross winds...aircraft tracked very well but never fully hands off.. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Miller John Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:29 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote: > > That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90 > degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here > remember that or we will talk!!! He said with a big smile!!!! Sent > via BlackBerry by AT&T > Hi Rick! I have my Pitts to give me my aerobatic fix. Does your insurance really have the 90 degree prohibition?? I have no clue what my insurance says .... underwritten by Mexican company! I have no wish to get wild in the -10. I've seen enough examples of what happens when you fly out of the category!!! Linn Still thinking of renting the car. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:33 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG Good points Bill. I decided to make the shelf for the magnetometers just ahead of the seat belt attach. I am putting another shelf forward of that slightly aft of the battery to hold the AHRS. Both units will be completely aligned though separated based on GRT's inputs that the AHRS can cause some disturbance in the magnetometer. -Chris Lucas #40072 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG Guys- I have not been following this thread so my comments may have already been covered. The best place to locate a magnometer (and/or the AHRS if they do not interfer with one another) is on a shelf that spans the fuselage laterally between the three longeron bolts that secure the aft seat belt attachment. This location has four good advantages: I have measured the magnetic interference and this location is the farthest distance from the autopilot elevator servo and the elevator trim servo. Do not underestimate the interference from the little trim servo - it is more of a problem than the autopilot. A shelf in this orientation is automatically aligned with the pitch and roll axis. If the sensor contains accelerometers or rate gyros it will function more accurately along the centerline of the fuselage than a wing tip. This location is far from the baggage compartment and the unpredictable magnetic forces contained in the unpredictable baggage. Also - you will never get a sensor accurately aligned in a wing tip. I just had a good example of how the wing will move about between ground and air. Bill DeRouchey N939SB --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Chris wrote: From: Chris Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG > Ok, I'll rethink too then. Thanks Chris #40072 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of johngoodman Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:31 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: GRT AHRS Mounting and CG > OK, I got a call back from Jeff at GRT. It is true that the AHRS interferes with the magnometer. The stock answer is that the magnometer can be no closer than 18" to a magnetic source. He's not sure what the exact distance for the AHRS is, but it contains stuff that will interfere. They recommend a wing tip as first choice, otherwise a separate mount in the tail far away from everything. Back to the drawing board.... John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel delivery soon. N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255821#25582/www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV10-List " target=_blank>http://www.matronicatronics.com/" ; -Matt Dralle, List Admin========= ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:34 PM PST US From: Miller John Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled flight - usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but not always) induced by cross controls to start with. Longitudinal stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and rudder) is lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment and possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft). Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble. Which way it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque effects of the engine. Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in today, it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward pitching moment to boot. Impossible to recover from in the traffic pattern. The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're watching the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this maneuver). the Yaw is most quickly felt through the seat of the pants - going sideways in the seat. Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your first response must be to release back stick pressure and neutralize ailerons and rudder. That will keep the departure from happening. Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for this..... grumpy N184JM On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Jim wrote: > Sir Grumpy, > > What exactly do you mean by "Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW > or ???? > > I don't understand that term. > > Jim Combs (N312F) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps > down). > > What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled > flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse > slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to > try to depart underneath.....not good). > > At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full > rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can > definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your > pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure > from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can > quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the > stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane > recovered itself (usually very nose low). > > The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded > by the wing low and opposite rudder. > > Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the > an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to > ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially > true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder > than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. > > I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip > (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you > do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves > the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your > pants. > > Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting > idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once > you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release > the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the > neutral position. > > Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and > use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. > > Hope this helps out > grumpy > N184JM > > > On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote: > > > > > I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. > > > > I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree > > flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as > > it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its > > travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became > > much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, > > and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much, > > just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return > > back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder > > almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during > > this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain > > airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). > > > > After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one > > had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this > > while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing, > > although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the > > floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, > > he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose > > the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that > > maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were > > forced to slow down and land without flaps. > > > > I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the > > same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and > > still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches > > of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. > > > > Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the > > rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. > > At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is > > limited to our copy. > > > > After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the > > unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing > > a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced > > before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the > > risk of what replies are sure to come. > > > > I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very > > least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if > > the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to > > perform. > > > > Thanks, Jason Kreidler > > > > N44YH - Flying > > 4 Partner Build #40617 > > Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:42 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Forward Slips Agree. Only really aggressive slip was from 400 AGL on a one mile final out of an RNAV 6 in weather to minimums. Flaps were reflexed or perhaps zero, KIAS was 100 and power was at idle and prop full forward. Since I was flying from the right seat the nose went left and down, ailerons right, Slip continued to at least 20 degrees nose left until about 50 AGL. Touchdown was about 2000 ft down a 5000 ft runway in moderate rain. The left seat pilot was admonishing me not to skid; the prop in flat pitch and engine at idle were enough to slow and stop. My advice is that in any slip get the nose down, the objective is to lose the altitude without a significant increase in airspeed. You definitely don't want the stall one wing and it is likely that the airspeed indication will not be accurate. It is more accurate because of the static ports on each side of the aircraft but the airflow to the pitot will be skewed. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down). What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good). At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low). The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder. Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants. Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position. Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. Hope this helps out grumpy N184JM On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote: I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps. I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy. After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure to come. I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform. Thanks, Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying 4 Partner Build #40617 Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List =================================== nics.com =================================== w.matronics.com/contribution =================================== = ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:24 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Forward Slips It is called a crossed controlled stall; the aircraft will snap over and go vertical in less than a second because one wing is producing lift and the other is stalled. At low altitude always fatal. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 7:16 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips Sir Grumpy, What exactly do you mean by "Depart"? Is it an uncommanded YAW or ???? I don't understand that term. Jim Combs (N312F) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down). What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good). At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low). The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder. Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants. Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position. Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. Hope this helps out grumpy N184JM On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com wrote: > > I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. > > I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree > flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as > it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its > travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became > much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, > and felt as if it was going to swap ends. It did not roll much, > just an abrupt yaw. I then had to apply opposite rudder to return > back to neutral. I did not get to the rudder stop. The rudder > almost felt as if it went 'over center'. Weight & Balance during > this test 2510 LBS @ 112.7". Note I was using pitch to maintain > airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). > > After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one > had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K. about this > while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same thing, > although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the > floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, > he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose > the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that > maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were > forced to slow down and land without flaps. > > I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the > same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and > still there at 0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches > of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. > > Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the > rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't. > At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is > limited to our copy. > > After experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the > unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing > a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced > before. 2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the > risk of what replies are sure to come. > > I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very > least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if > the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to > perform. > > Thanks, Jason Kreidler > > N44YH - Flying > 4 Partner Build #40617 > Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:09 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: mounting steps From: "rvdave" I'm in the process of mounting steps on a QB, the steps were pre-drilled and according to the drawings the weld should be flush with the skin, which it isn't, and the measurement from rear spar should be 45 1/2, which it's about 46 with fuselage leveled. I could either let it go as is, move step to correct position and re-drill 90 deg from previous hole, or order new steps and align with existing hole. What are your experiences as to how your steps came out in relation to plans? Dave Ford -------- Dave Ford RV6 flying RV10 building Cadillac, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256093#256093 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:08 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Testing fuel tank with 100LL Folks, MEK is a poor second choice for thinning proseal. Toluene is the correct thinner. However, rather than messing with thinning, just buy one cartridge of A-2 compound, as it is already the correct consistency for brushing. Perhaps $20. In fact, the Mooney method for tank sealing is to do fillets and gap seals with B compound, then brush A compound over the fillets and all rivet heads, nutplates, bolts, etc. That is followed by a "cherry juice" top coat that is brushed on, two coats, to protect the proseal from effects of fuel, ethanol, and most anything else that gets in there. So Vans approach of only using B-2 with no access panel is a minimalist approach. My Mooney has 4 access plates in the design, and yes, there is a different access panel version of proseal. jkreidler wrote: This topic went around a while back and someone mentioned they applied heat, and maybe pressure, or vacuum. > OK, so I think I have fixed the blame, now it is time to fix the problem. Green loctite didn't seem to work, someone had suggested thinning pro-seal 50% with MEK, applying a slight vacuum to the tank and letting it cure. > Jason Kreidler > N44YH - Flying #40617 > 4 Partner Build > Wayne Elsner - Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Jason Kreidler > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256046#256046 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:47 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips Miller John wrote: > Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled flight - > usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but not always) > induced by cross controls to start with. > > Longitudinal stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and > rudder) is lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment > and possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft). > Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble. Which way > it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque effects of the > engine. Hmmm .... the airplane shouldn't snap roll unless the rudder and elevator is applied aggressively. Read "shouldn't" again. If one wing doesn't stall, then the snap roll doesn't occur. > > Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in today, > it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward pitching moment to > boot. Impossible to recover from in the traffic pattern. I'm curious .... do you have the experience (I think you do)to try this at altitude? The fact that a common forward slip morphs into some other flight regime is troubling to me. > > The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're watching > the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this maneuver). the Yaw > is most quickly felt through the seat of the pants - going sideways in > the seat. > > Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your first > response must be to release back stick pressure and neutralize ailerons > and rudder. That will keep the departure from happening. > > Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for this..... The mental picture of an A7 in a slip causes me some chuckles. Did you really??? When I read the original poster of the rudder thread my thoughts were that the rudder was blanked by the wing somehow .... but I'd just have to be there. Interesting thread. Linn > > grumpy > N184JM ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:59 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips Rick, Make sure that if you're going to hit the ground, you NEVER do it with bank angles of over 90 degrees or inverted. If you always try to hit the ground wings level, 70-80kts, slightly nose above the horizon, there shouldn't be many opportunities for you to use in-flight insurance. ;) Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote: > > That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90 > degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here > remember that or we will talk!!! He said with a big smile!!!! Sent > via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- From: Linn Walters > > > Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:55:04 To: > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips > > > > > > When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin??? What is > the elevator position in all this??? Nose high (aft stick) and > cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin. > And guaranteed to get you one. Which begs the question .... anyone > have experience with spins in the -10?? Reply off-list if you're > sensitive to flaming! Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you > can do with your clothes on!!! > > Miller John wrote: >> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps >> down). >> >> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from >> controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. >> Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine >> torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good). >> >> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full >> rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can >> definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your >> pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional >> departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the >> AF). You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back >> pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether >> until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low). >> >> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, >> compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder. >> >> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip >> the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon >> to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is >> especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter >> height rudder than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips. >> >> >> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap >> slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in >> case you do inadvertently depart the bird). You need to feel for >> yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the >> seat of your pants. >> >> Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting >> idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude. >> Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release >> release the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back >> pressure to the neutral position. >> >> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low >> and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps. >> >> Hope this helps out grumpy N184JM >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:57 PM PST US From: Miller John Subject: Fwd: RV10-List: Forward Slips Begin forwarded message: > From: Miller John > Date: August 4, 2009 10:24:28 PM CDT > To: Linn Walters > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips > > Over 4,000 hrs in single seat fighters, 1,700 in the A-7. Taught > departure training for years. A-7 would depart at 400 kts (very > violent, often tumbling end over end) or it would depart at 150 kts > - very slow motion-like, with near vertical (down) nose position to > start recovery. High speed departures (after tumbling) rarely had > nose down more than 30 degrees or so. > > Today, there was no "aggressive" rudder or elevator input - merely > held what i had as airspeed bled off. > > Slipped fighters all the time, even though we had speed brakes. > With the swept wing fast movers, you ALWAYS kept the nose low and > the speed up if you did a slip...... > > Don't think there's an airplane I've flown that I didn't routinely > slip when needed......just keep the nose low! > > On Aug 4, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Linn Walters wrote: > >> > >> >> Miller John wrote: >>> Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled >>> flight - usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but >>> not always) induced by cross controls to start with. Longitudinal >>> stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and rudder) is >>> lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment and >>> possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft). >>> Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble. >>> Which way it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque >>> effects of the engine. >> Hmmm .... the airplane shouldn't snap roll unless the rudder and >> elevator is applied aggressively. Read "shouldn't" again. If one >> wing doesn't stall, then the snap roll doesn't occur. >>> Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in >>> today, it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward >>> pitching moment to boot. Impossible to recover from in the >>> traffic pattern. >> I'm curious .... do you have the experience (I think you do)to try >> this at altitude? The fact that a common forward slip morphs into >> some other flight regime is troubling to me. >>> The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're >>> watching the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this >>> maneuver). the Yaw is most quickly felt through the seat of the >>> pants - going sideways in the seat. >>> Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your >>> first response must be to release back stick pressure and >>> neutralize ailerons and rudder. That will keep the departure from >>> happening. >>> Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for >>> this..... >> The mental picture of an A7 in a slip causes me some chuckles. Did >> you really??? >> >> When I read the original poster of the rudder thread my thoughts >> were that the rudder was blanked by the wing somehow .... but I'd >> just have to be there. Interesting thread. >> Linn >>> grumpy >>> N184JM >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:06 PM PST US From: Jeff Carpenter Subject: Re: RV10-List: mounting steps Hi Dave, From what I remember of a conversation with Vans, the step position relative to the rear spar has more to do with clearing the flaps when extended than anything else. If your step is canted a bit further aft than specified, I don't think you have a problem. You don't say how far from flush the weld is to the skin. Mine stopped at the edge of the widest edge of the weld bead... which didn't seem all that "flush." Jeff Carpenter 40304 Doors. Ugh! On Aug 4, 2009, at 8:01 PM, rvdave wrote: > > I'm in the process of mounting steps on a QB, the steps were pre- > drilled and according to the drawings the weld should be flush with > the skin, which it isn't, and the measurement from rear spar should > be 45 1/2, which it's about 46 with fuselage leveled. I could > either let it go as is, move step to correct position and re-drill > 90 deg from previous hole, or order new steps and align with > existing hole. What are your experiences as to how your steps came > out in relation to plans? > > Dave Ford > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 flying > RV10 building > Cadillac, MI > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256093#256093 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.