Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:22 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Perry, Phil)
2. 01:16 PM - Re: RV-10 Air Cond (Robert Brunkenhoefer)
3. 02:25 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Rob Kermanj)
4. 02:37 PM - Re: A kid.. Really?? (nukeflyboy)
5. 02:50 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Kelly McMullen)
6. 03:47 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Fred Williams, M.D.)
7. 07:18 PM - Re: RV-10 Air Cond (David Maib)
8. 08:39 PM - Re: AOPA magazine - Painted 10 (Don McDonald)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
I think I see what you're saying Carl.
You're basically suggesting that I ground everything to the forest of
tabs behind the panel, but make a heavier run to each wingtip and ground
to those. Basically a start topology... Right?
Phil
From: Carl Froehlich [mailto:carl.froehlich@verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 9:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
Phil,
Some thoughts:
1. The only thing on the engine that needs a hefty ground is the
starter. Run your ground wire from the same bolt that goes through the
firewall to the nice ground lug on the starter (a number #4 wire works
well). On the same starter ground lug do a jumper (like a ground strap
or perhaps a piece of #6 wire) to the mounting bolts on the alternator.
This way you have an excellent ground path for both the starter and the
alternator.
2. I plan on two Odyssey PC625 batteries in my RV-10 (that is what
I'm running in my 8A). These will be enable split bus operation in the
event of a failure of one side or the other. If you plan on split power
supplies, keep in mind a single ground wire that connect both battery
grounds to a single point defeats the purpose of having redundant power
supplies. Run a single common #2 or #4 wire that connects both
battery grounds to the firewall bolt discussed above (this is the
starter ground and half of the panel ground). Run another #10 wire
ground from both batteries to another "forest of tabs" on the firewall.
Split the panel ground paths between them consistent with how you are
splitting the power distribution. The objective is to not allow a
single failure point (the firewall ground lug) take down your entire
panel.
3. Typically a single #14 ground wire is sufficient as a common
ground for each wing. You may want to run another #14 ground to the
pitot heat if it draws a lot of current. Ground these on the same
firewall lug that you have the starter on (on the cabin side). You
don't need a forest of tabs in the wing, just solder pigtails onto the
single #14 wire that go to each component. Do the same type of pigtail
for all tail cone grounds.
Carl\
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 8:54 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
I'm in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper and
in my head.
Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I really
don't like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would
prefer to ground everything back to a block.
Here is where I think I'm headed.
1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery forward
to the firewall.
a. Attach this line to a "Forest of Tab" on the interior side of
the firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to
this spot.
b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all FWF
items to the "Forest of Tab" on the FWF side.
c. I'll also ground the crank case at this point too.
2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to the
left wing tip and install a Forest out there too.....
a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot
heat, Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc......
3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to the
right wing tip and install a Forest.
a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on
the right side.
4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to a
"Forest of Tabs" located beside the battery box.
a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone electronics.
NAV, Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
that end up aft of the baggage compartment.
How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be a
pain to chase down, so that's the reason I'm really wanting to spend the
time designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
Thanks,
Phil
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Air Cond |
DAVE, I TOO HAVE THE SAME A/C SYSTEM. IT DOES NOT GET CHILLY IN THE
CABIN ENGAGED ON A HOT CORPUS CHRISTI DAY, BUT IT KEEPS ME FROM
FRYING. HOW LOW DOES YOUR SYSTEM TAKE YOU. I GET ABOUT 20 DEGREES DROP
FROM AMBIENT OUT THE VENTS. ROBERT I KNOW, I LEFT MY CAPS ON.
On Aug 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, David Maib wrote:
> I have been flying with the Flightline AC system for 8 months in
> Florida. Very happy with the system and cannot imagine being without
> it. As Don Orrick notes, being able to have AC while taxiing is
> really nice. We also have the Vertical Power Climate Control System
> and it works great. Being able to run the cabin fan without the
> compressor on is desirable, and Vertical Power is still working on
> that. When we were building this airplane up in Minnesota, my wife
> was not sure we needed to put in AC, even though we knew we were
> moving south. She said "being hot and sweaty is just part of the
> light airplane experience". She has officially changed her tune and
> is really glad we installed AC.
>
> David Maib
> 40559
> Flying
>
>
> On Aug 30, 2009, at 6:23 PM, woxofswa wrote:
>
>
> I am getting to the point where I need to fish or cut bait on the A/
> C installation.
>
> Is there anyone out there with field experience of working systems?
>
> Any pros/cons between the two primary systems available?
>
> To those who've done it, would you do it again?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260521#260521
>
>
> nbsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ">http://www.matronics--> http://forums.matronics.com
> - List Contribution Web Site -Matt
> Dralle, href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co==================
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com> wrote:
> Im in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper and in
> my head.
>
>
> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I really
> dont like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would prefer
> to ground everything back to a block.
>
>
> Here is where I think Im headed.
>
>
> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery forward to
> the firewall.
>
> a. Attach this line to a Forest of Tab on the interior side of the
> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to this
> spot.
>
> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all FWF items
> to the Forest of Tab on the FWF side.
>
> c. Ill also ground the crank case at this point too.
>
> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to the left
> wing tip and install a Forest out there too..
>
> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot heat,
> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc
>
> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to the
> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>
> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on the
> right side.
>
> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to a
> Forest of Tabs located beside the battery box.
>
> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone electronics. NAV,
> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices that end
> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>
>
> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be a pain
> to chase down, so thats the reason Im really wanting to spend the time
> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phil
>
>
--
Rob Kermanj
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: A kid.. Really?? |
Phil,
Congratulations! You are about to embark on the most rewarding and challenging
adventure in your life. You have no idea, but that little 7 lb bundle will be
the center of your universe for quite a while. It is a journey worth doing
well.
Building a RV-10 and fatherhood are not totally incompatible, but you should expect
the airplane to take a serious back seat. If you want to keep them, then
the family will have to come first. I started my RV-6 in 1992 when my 2 daughters
were 7 and 9. Working on the 6 was my hobby and stress reliever, but the
family always came first. Result: 8 years and 3 months to build.
My advice is to keep building but make it a low second priority. The kit will
wait, forget about completion schedules, and just look at building as an alternative
to golf or television.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - cabin top/fiberglass hell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260696#260696
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for "sensitive"
electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter, battery, landing
light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through the aluminum
airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices just adds
complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt you will find
any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy loads. If you
still decide to go with separate ground leads for lighting and pitot
heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot lead to reduce
magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com> wrote:
>> Im in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper and in
>> my head.
>>
>>
>>
>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I really
>> dont like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would prefer
>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is where I think Im headed.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery forward to
>> the firewall.
>>
>> a. Attach this line to a Forest of Tab on the interior side of the
>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to this
>> spot.
>>
>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all FWF items
>> to the Forest of Tab on the FWF side.
>>
>> c. Ill also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>
>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to the left
>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too..
>>
>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot heat,
>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc
>>
>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to the
>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>
>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on the
>> right side.
>>
>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to a
>> Forest of Tabs located beside the battery box.
>>
>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone electronics. NAV,
>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices that end
>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>
>>
>>
>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be a pain
>> to chase down, so thats the reason Im really wanting to spend the time
>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Bout 3-4 years ago I heard one of the electronic gurus speak at Osh. At
that lecture he did recommend couple grounds from the engine to the
airframe. He has several stories of hard starting engines with
inadequate grounds. I don't remember him saying that you had to run a
separate ground back for all the other devices (again complexity/vs wt
savings). In trying to get adequate starter power for my engine, I
have run a separate ground from the starter back to a common post on the
firewall. The post then has a number 4 wire back to the battery. I
switched out my skytec starter for a B&C starter and I think I have
solved my starter problems. I'd recommend that if you have a higher
compression engine you consider starting out with a B&C starter.
Dr Fred.
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for
> "sensitive" electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter,
> battery, landing light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through
> the aluminum airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices
> just adds complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt
> you will find any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy
> loads. If you still decide to go with separate ground leads for
> lighting and pitot heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot
> lead to reduce magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
>
> Rob Kermanj wrote:
>>
>> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
>> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
>> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
>> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Im in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
>>> and in
>>> my head.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
>>> really
>>> dont like the idea of routing current through the airframe and
>>> would prefer
>>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is where I think Im headed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
>>> forward to
>>> the firewall.
>>>
>>> a. Attach this line to a Forest of Tab on the interior side
>>> of the
>>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to this
>>> spot.
>>>
>>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
>>> FWF items
>>> to the Forest of Tab on the FWF side.
>>>
>>> c. Ill also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>>
>>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
>>> the left
>>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too..
>>>
>>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing,
>>> Pitot heat,
>>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc
>>>
>>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to the
>>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>>
>>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items
>>> on the
>>> right side.
>>>
>>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to a
>>> Forest of Tabs located beside the battery box.
>>>
>>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
>>> electronics. NAV,
>>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
>>> that end
>>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can
>>> be a pain
>>> to chase down, so thats the reason Im really wanting to spend the
>>> time
>>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Air Cond |
Robert,
I have not measured the drop from ambient, but I would guess 20
degrees is about right. I talked to John Strain at Flightline AC a
couple of months ago and mentioned that I did not think the "High"
cabin fan position put out as much air as I expected it to. He said
that the cabin fan actually has four positions. Lo, medium, medium
hi, and hi. The individual that wired the units for Flightline AC
made a command decision and wired the bottom three for the Flightline
installation. So, I really only have Lo, medium, and medium hi. I
don't know if John has corrected that on recent kits. I plan to have
John help me rewire it one of these days when we get out to Oregon.
He tells me it is not a difficult job, but getting to the area will
be difficult. However, I installed access panels on each side of the
upper forward tailcone, so I do have some AC access.
=EF=BC
Best regards,
David Maib
On Aug 31, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Robert Brunkenhoefer wrote:
DAVE, I TOO HAVE THE SAME A/C SYSTEM. IT DOES NOT GET CHILLY IN THE
CABIN ENGAGED ON A HOT CORPUS CHRISTI DAY, BUT IT KEEPS ME FROM
FRYING. HOW LOW DOES YOUR SYSTEM TAKE YOU. I GET ABOUT 20 DEGREES
DROP FROM AMBIENT OUT THE VENTS. ROBERT I KNOW, I LEFT MY CAPS ON.
On Aug 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, David Maib wrote:
> I have been flying with the Flightline AC system for 8 months in
> Florida. Very happy with the system and cannot imagine being
> without it. As Don Orrick notes, being able to have AC while
> taxiing is really nice. We also have the Vertical Power Climate
> Control System and it works great. Being able to run the cabin fan
> without the compressor on is desirable, and Vertical Power is still
> working on that. When we were building this airplane up in
> Minnesota, my wife was not sure we needed to put in AC, even though
> we knew we were moving south. She said "being hot and sweaty is
> just part of the light airplane experience". She has officially
> changed her tune and is really glad we installed AC.
>
> David Maib
> 40559
> Flying
>
>
> On Aug 30, 2009, at 6:23 PM, woxofswa wrote:
>
>
> I am getting to the point where I need to fish or cut bait on the A/
> C installation.
>
> Is there anyone out there with field experience of working systems?
>
> Any pros/cons between the two primary systems available?
>
> To those who've done it, would you do it again?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260521#260521
>
>
> nbsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum href="http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics-->
> http://forums.matronics.com
> - List Contribution Web Site -Matt
> Dralle, href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/co==================
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | AOPA magazine - Painted 10 |
Ok John.... even though you've already, first hand, seen the paint, here ar
e some actual pictures.- BTW, it was great talking to you at the Van's Ho
mecoming...... I can't believe how much I DON'T know!
--- On Thu, 8/27/09, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
From: John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AOPA magazine
Humbly corrected.- AOPA said 200 and I meant to say 228 with pictures for
more than 128 painted birds.- The quality is sure improving, as are the
number of well financed purchasers of Pro built 10's.- I love Newman & Co
mbs.
-
John Cox
From: Rene Felker
Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AOPA magazine
...... Flying 128/ Sold 983 leaving 755......
Looks like a typo, I think you meant 228 flying and that is 28 above what
Vans shows. I am guessing that your number is more accurate since Vans only
reports what they are told by the builders and not all builders tell Vans
that they are flying.
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AOPA magazine
Dr. Peeler holds a recent Commercial with Instrument ticket and has
authorizations for TBMs and T-33 but doesn't show a Repairman cert for
his fine AOPA magazined Raddatz built aircraft. This is similar to
Scott Gustafson's and ten other Raddatz builds that are flying. With
the final interpretation about to be chiseled in granite by the Fed, the
51% rule is allowing many RV-10s built by Professionals to be purchased
and flown by individuals of means and the passion to join this group of
flying RV-10's. As Tony Soprano would say on the subject of caring not
in the feeding a maintenance of such birds.... Forgetaboutit. There are
many who say they did the work of others or color their prose a bit to
get the airworthiness.
It was light years ago that a ragtag group of Yahoo fans migrated here
in hopes of a builder forum for RV-10 builders.
Our insurance pool will soon be made up of the wide swath of interested
RV-10 operators (some not builders). Unless an insurance company
creates a better financial deal for an improved gene pool of "builder"
aircraft, we become a product of our own success with well financed Dr.
Peeler's of the RV-10 community.
AOPA reported in the article 100 completed and another 1000 sold. My
numbers are just a bit off that projection. Flying 128/ Sold 983 leaving
755 of us out in the cold lusting after the first group that's flying
with all those stories and romantic getaways.
I concur that AOPA and EAA should both do an article on the raising and
feeding of the Olson clan while completing N104CD. Can anyone trump
Tim's accomplishments on the RV-10?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AOPA magazine
AOPA should have done the article on Tim.......
And wonder if Peeler got a repairman's certificate as well?
grumpy
N184JM
do not archive
On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:33 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I tend to get a bit irked when someone say "doesn't have the time
> or skills".
> Also, I saw a posting on another forum recently where someone
> said that they didn't build their plane, and that now they
> have some maintenance they need to do, but they don't know
> how to do it.
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> Dave Saylor wrote:
>> >>Peeler, a physician, said he doesn't have the time or skills to
>> build an airplane like the RV-10, which requires at least 2,000
>> hours for a veteran builder to assemble. But he says he complies
>> with the letter and spirit of the regulations by only using his
>> aircraft for private, noncommercial purposes and hiring
>> professional mechanics to perform the required inspections.
>> "I'm not the builder of this airplane and I don't pretend to be,"
>> he said.<<
>>
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=430
WP
>> He pretended to be the builder when he applied for the AW cert, and
>> had his signature notarized stating he was the builder on the
>> 8130-12. He may have some 'splain'n to do...
>> Dave Saylor
>> AirCrafters LLC
>> 140 Aviation Way
>> Watsonville, CA 95076
>> 831-722-9141 Shop
>> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
>
=0A=0A=0A
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