Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:06 AM - Re: RV-10 Air Cond (David Maib)
2. 07:43 AM - Re: Gaps between Weld-On 10 and Window (John Gonzalez)
3. 07:55 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Perry, Phil)
4. 10:04 AM - Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing (Jae Chang)
5. 10:55 AM - Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing (Michael Kraus)
6. 11:12 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Brian)
7. 11:23 AM - Recall: Grounding Questions (Brian)
8. 11:23 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Brian)
9. 11:23 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Brian)
10. 11:26 AM - Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing (Pascal)
11. 12:35 PM - Re: RV-10 Air Cond (Robert Brunkenhoefer)
12. 12:39 PM - Re: AOPA magazine - Painted 10 (John Cumins)
13. 01:01 PM - Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing (Lenny Iszak)
14. 01:24 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Linn Walters)
15. 01:25 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Perry, Phil)
16. 02:20 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Jeff Carpenter)
17. 02:20 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Kelly McMullen)
18. 02:21 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Kelly McMullen)
19. 02:23 PM - Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing (Jae Chang)
20. 02:23 PM - Re: Recall: Grounding Questions (Linn Walters)
21. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing (Kelly McMullen)
22. 03:09 PM - Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing (Kelly McMullen)
23. 04:39 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
24. 05:45 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
25. 07:51 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (richard sipp)
26. 08:04 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Brian)
27. 11:07 PM - Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
28. 11:16 PM - Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Air Cond |
Sorry about the size of that photo in my previous post. I intended to
resize it before sending, but somehow missed it.
David Maib
40559
flying
On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:47 PM, David Maib wrote:
Robert,
I have not measured the drop from ambient, but I would guess 20
degrees is about right. I talked to John Strain at Flightline AC a
couple of months ago and mentioned that I did not think the "High"
cabin fan position put out as much air as I expected it to. He said
that the cabin fan actually has four positions. Lo, medium, medium
hi, and hi. The individual that wired the units for Flightline AC
made a command decision and wired the bottom three for the Flightline
installation. So, I really only have Lo, medium, and medium hi. I
don't know if John has corrected that on recent kits. I plan to have
John help me rewire it one of these days when we get out to Oregon.
He tells me it is not a difficult job, but getting to the area will
be difficult. However, I installed access panels on each side of the
upper forward tailcone, so I do have some AC access.
<IMG_1610.JPG>
Best regards,
David Maib
On Aug 31, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Robert Brunkenhoefer wrote:
DAVE, I TOO HAVE THE SAME A/C SYSTEM. IT DOES NOT GET CHILLY IN THE
CABIN ENGAGED ON A HOT CORPUS CHRISTI DAY, BUT IT KEEPS ME FROM
FRYING. HOW LOW DOES YOUR SYSTEM TAKE YOU. I GET ABOUT 20 DEGREES
DROP FROM AMBIENT OUT THE VENTS. ROBERT I KNOW, I LEFT MY CAPS ON.
On Aug 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, David Maib wrote:
> I have been flying with the Flightline AC system for 8 months in
> Florida. Very happy with the system and cannot imagine being
> without it. As Don Orrick notes, being able to have AC while
> taxiing is really nice. We also have the Vertical Power Climate
> Control System and it works great. Being able to run the cabin fan
> without the compressor on is desirable, and Vertical Power is still
> working on that. When we were building this airplane up in
> Minnesota, my wife was not sure we needed to put in AC, even though
> we knew we were moving south. She said "being hot and sweaty is
> just part of the light airplane experience". She has officially
> changed her tune and is really glad we installed AC.
>
> David Maib
> 40559
> Flying
>
>
> On Aug 30, 2009, at 6:23 PM, woxofswa wrote:
>
>
> I am getting to the point where I need to fish or cut bait on the A/
> C installation.
>
> Is there anyone out there with field experience of working systems?
>
> Any pros/cons between the two primary systems available?
>
> To those who've done it, would you do it again?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260521#260521
>
>
> nbsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum href="http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics-->
> http://forums.matronics.com
> - List Contribution Web Site -Matt
> Dralle, href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/co==================
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://
www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
contribution
Message 2
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| Subject: | Gaps between Weld-On 10 and Window |
Hi Jeff=2C
Don't know if anyone responded to your email. Things to test before going y
our route. Does fresh Weld On 10 bond to previously cured Weld On 10. Also
=2C you are going to lay fiberglass over the outside gap between cabin top
and window. You might consider channeling around this area so that you can
use say laminations of 9 oz satin weave as apposed to a single lamination.
Also consider how you will finish the the inside junction between cabin and
window. I went the cheap route and caulked the gap in with fuel tank seala
nt by mixing it and then putting it in a large syringe and going around the
channel/gap/ledge. It is a little difficult to get a nice result and clean
up will need to be done with alcohol.
Also know that if you use this sealant=2C you will not be able to work insi
de the plane say two weeks as it will stink as it is curing. A shop with gr
eat ventilation would be a different story. I used this sealant based on bo
nding characteristic and color. My inside cabin top is black/dark grey Zola
tone.
Just food for thought
JOhn
> From: jeff@westcottpress.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Gaps between Weld-On 10 and Window
> Date: Sat=2C 29 Aug 2009 17:20:57 -0700
>
>
> I took the plunge yesterday and bonded the window in to the left side
> door. I peeled the tape off today and found significant gaps between
> the weld-on and the window... particularly along the curved vertical
> edges. In hindsight=2C it was obviously too hot to be doing this work
> yesterday... my shop is at the base of the mountains near JPL where
> the fires have been raging for the past few days and=2C though it is air
> conditioned=2C was probably about 85% inside. The weld-on just set up
> too quickly.
>
> I'm thinking of drilling a few small holes and injecting epoxy in to
> fill the gaps. Has anyone gone down this road before? Is there a
> better way to fix this=2C shy of replacing the whole thing?
>
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> Singin those Weld-on 10 blues...
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
I'm not sure that's right Kelly.. Of course I have a hard time
following much of what Mr. Nuckolls has to say in his book. He's so
damn verbose and wants to share so much history that it's really hard to
follow his thought process. :) I wish he would write another book
called "Just the Facts" and leave the other 85% of the history, stories,
and unnecessary content out. But at least there is some good
information in there in the diagrams and in general. You just have to
get to it.
But that's just me....
So back to the topic...
On page 5-4 paragraph #2, he tells a story of when they used to own an
airport. A mechanic was reinstalling an engine that was overhauled. In
the process of connecting grounds, he didn't connect the ground strap
between the crankcase and the firewall.
When they tried to start the engine they only had smoke. Come to find
out the current tried to find a path back to the battery via throttle,
mixture, and p-lead shielding.
So it sounds like he is advocating a ground from the crankcase to the
airframe. But then in the next sentence, he says "Grounding the
crankcase to the battery directly eliminates this possibility."
He suggests grounding the crankcase with a heavy braid to the bolt
holding the Forest of Tabs on the firewall. Then from the Tabs to the
battery.
So it's open to your interpretation I guess.
I think I'm going to run a heavy ground from the battery to the tabs at
the panel. Then from the tabs, I'll run a ground wire to each wing tip
and one to the tail. FWF, I'm going to jump through the firewall (from
the tabs) and run a strap to the starter. Then a jumper from the
starter to the alternator.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for "sensitive"
electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter, battery, landing
light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through the aluminum
airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices just adds
complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt you will find
any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy loads. If you
still decide to go with separate ground leads for lighting and pitot
heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot lead to reduce
magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
wrote:
>> I'm in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
and in
>> my head.
>>
>>
>>
>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
really
>> don't like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would
prefer
>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is where I think I'm headed.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
forward to
>> the firewall.
>>
>> a. Attach this line to a "Forest of Tab" on the interior side
of the
>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to
this
>> spot.
>>
>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
FWF items
>> to the "Forest of Tab" on the FWF side.
>>
>> c. I'll also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>
>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the left
>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too.....
>>
>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot
heat,
>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc......
>>
>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the
>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>
>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on
the
>> right side.
>>
>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
a
>> "Forest of Tabs" located beside the battery box.
>>
>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
electronics. NAV,
>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
that end
>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>
>>
>>
>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be
a pain
>> to chase down, so that's the reason I'm really wanting to spend the
time
>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing |
I was looking at the Firewall Forward kit and was looking at what
modifications people made in the past.
The hose kit is really really confusing. Prices are all over the map. As
far as I see, Van's prices have been sharply reduced. Aircrafthose.com's
prices have been sharply increased since William Curtis's email below -
just 20 days ago. Are hoses tied to the stock market indices to explain
the volatility?
I called aircrafthose.com today and these are the prices quoted to me.
$596 for 7 hoses
$556 without VA-119
Hmm, that's interesting. Okay, let me check Van's prices. This is from
their online catalog:
*PART NUMBER* *TYPE OF LINE* *LENGTH &
DIAMETER* *PRICE* *Qty* *Shopping Cart*
VA-119 MANIFOLD PRESSURE 21.50"x1/4" $17.00
VA-102 FUEL PRESSURE 15.50"x1/4" $15.50
VA-133 OIL PRESSURE 27.25"x1/4" $18.25
VA-135 OIL COOLER 16.50"x1/2" $64.40
VA-190 OIL COOLER 27.00"x1/2" $97.65
VA-138 FUEL SUPPLY 14.00"x3/8" $63.30
VA-189 FUEL LINE IO-540 25.50"x3/8" $100.50
Van's total is now only $376 from $545 in William's email below. Thus,
it's now much less of an easy decision. Are the upgraded hoses worth
paying 50% more than Van's prices?
Also, aircrafthose.com told me only 1 buyer in August and previously a
buyer in May for the rv-10 hoses, so not many people went this route it
seems.
FYI,
Jae
40533
W. Curtis wrote:
> RV-10 builders nearing Firewall Forward or engine planning stage.
> Having not ordered the Firewall Forward kit yet and just planning
> ahead, I've looked at the plans and determined the following hoses are
> required for the IO-540 installation:
>
> VA-119 IE VMP HOSE (AN4, 21.5, AIR) $ 34.60
> VA-102 FUEL PRES. HOSE (AN4, 15.5, FUEL) $ 58.20
> VA-133 OIL PRESS HOSE (AN4, 27.25, OIL) $ 69.00
> VA-138 FUEL SUPPLY HOSE (AN6, 14.0, FUEL) $ 69.65
> VA-189 FUEL LINE IO-540 (AN6, 25.5, FUEL) $153.45
> VA-135 OIL COOLER HOSE (AN8, 16.5, OIL) $ 66.85
> VA-190 OIL COOLER HOSE (AN8, 27.0, OIL) $ 95.65
>
> I'm not sure but I think the only Van's hose that is Teflon with the
> integral firesleeve are the VA-138 and VA-189 hoses. I requested a
> quote from Aircraft Hose (http://www.aircrafthose.com) for the above
> hoses ALL Teflon with integral firesleeve except the (VA-119) MAP
> Hose. They came back with and initial price of $491 for the set. The
> Van's price for the set of hoses (not all Teflon with integral
> firesleeve) is about $545. I've asked them if they could offer a
> greater discount if we could arrange a group buy. I haven't heard back
> from them yet but wanted to get you thinking.
>
> Here are the specifics.
> Stratoflex Integral Firesleeve Hoses for RV-10
> 111-4 hose with a 300-4D fitting 21.50" Long (111001-4CR0214) (IO-540
> Man Press.)
> 124-4J hose with a 524-4CR fitting 15.50" Long (124J001-4CR0154)
> (IO-540 Fuel Press.)
> 124-4J hose with a 524-4CR fitting 27.25" Long (124J001-4CR0272)
> (IO-540 Oil Press.)
> 124-6J hose with a 524-6CR fitting 14.00" Long (124J001-6CR0140)
> (IO-540 Fuel Supply)
> 124-6J hose with a 524-6CR fitting 25.50" Long (124J001-6CR0254)
> (IO-540 Fuel Line)
> 124-8J hose with a 524-8CR fitting 16.50" Long (124J001-8CR0164) (Oil
> cooler)
> 124-8J hose with a 524-8CR fitting 27.00" Long (124J001-8CR0270) (Oil
> cooler)
>
> Hose with Integral firesleeve
> http://www.aircrafthose.com/images/pic1248j.jpg
>
> Hose with external firesleeve
> http://www.aircrafthose.com/images/pic2650c.jpg
>
> William Curtis
> http://nerv10.com/
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing |
Or you can make your own, it isn't that hard and it's even cheaper!!!
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:57 PM, Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>
wrote:
> I was looking at the Firewall Forward kit and was looking at what
> modifications people made in the past.
>
> The hose kit is really really confusing. Prices are all over the
> map. As far as I see, Van's prices have been sharply reduced. Aircrafthose.com
> 's prices have been sharply increased since William Curtis's email
> below - just 20 days ago. Are hoses tied to the stock market indices
> to explain the volatility?
>
> I called aircrafthose.com today and these are the prices quoted to me.
> $596 for 7 hoses
> $556 without VA-119
>
> Hmm, that's interesting. Okay, let me check Van's prices. This is
> from their online catalog:
>
> PART NUMBER TYPE OF LINE LENGTH &
> DIAMETER PRICE Qty Shopping Cart
> VA-119 MANIFOLD PRESSURE 21.50"x1/4" $17.00
> VA-102 FUEL PRESSURE 15.50"x1/4" $15.50
> VA-133 OIL PRESSURE 27.25"x1/4" $18.25
> VA-135 OIL COOLER 16.50"x1/2" $64.40
> VA-190 OIL COOLER 27.00"x1/2" $97.65
> VA-138 FUEL SUPPLY 14.00"x3/8" $63.30
> VA-189 FUEL LINE IO-540 25.50"x3/8" $100.50
> Van's total is now only $376 from $545 in William's email below.
> Thus, it's now much less of an easy decision. Are the upgraded hoses
> worth paying 50% more than Van's prices?
>
> Also, aircrafthose.com told me only 1 buyer in August and previously
> a buyer in May for the rv-10 hoses, so not many people went this
> route it seems.
>
> FYI,
> Jae
> 40533
>
> W. Curtis wrote:
>>
>> RV-10 builders nearing Firewall Forward or engine planning stage.
>> Having not ordered the Firewall Forward kit yet and just planning
>> ahead, I've looked at the plans and determined the following hoses
>> are required for the IO-540 installation:
>>
>> VA-119 IE VMP HOSE (AN4, 21.5, AIR) $ 34.60
>> VA-102 FUEL PRES. HOSE (AN4, 15.5, FUEL) $ 58.20
>> VA-133 OIL PRESS HOSE (AN4, 27.25, OIL) $ 69.00
>> VA-138 FUEL SUPPLY HOSE (AN6, 14.0, FUEL) $ 69.65
>> VA-189 FUEL LINE IO-540 (AN6, 25.5, FUEL) $153.45
>> VA-135 OIL COOLER HOSE (AN8, 16.5, OIL) $ 66.85
>> VA-190 OIL COOLER HOSE (AN8, 27.0, OIL) $ 95.65
>>
>> I'm not sure but I think the only Van's hose that is Teflon with
>> the integral firesleeve are the VA-138 and VA-189 hoses. I
>> requested a quote from Aircraft Hose (http://www.aircrafthose.com)
>> for the above hoses ALL Teflon with integral firesleeve except the
>> (VA-119) MAP Hose. They came back with and initial price of $491
>> for the set. The Van's price for the set of hoses (not all Teflon
>> with integral firesleeve) is about $545. I've asked them if they
>> could offer a greater discount if we could arrange a group buy. I
>> haven't heard back from them yet but wanted to get you thinking.
>>
>> Here are the specifics.
>> Stratoflex Integral Firesleeve Hoses for RV-10
>> 111-4 hose with a 300-4D fitting 21.50" Long (111001-4CR0214)
>> (IO-540 Man Press.)
>> 124-4J hose with a 524-4CR fitting 15.50" Long (124J001-4CR0154)
>> (IO-540 Fuel Press.)
>> 124-4J hose with a 524-4CR fitting 27.25" Long (124J001-4CR0272)
>> (IO-540 Oil Press.)
>> 124-6J hose with a 524-6CR fitting 14.00" Long (124J001-6CR0140)
>> (IO-540 Fuel Supply)
>> 124-6J hose with a 524-6CR fitting 25.50" Long (124J001-6CR0254)
>> (IO-540 Fuel Line)
>> 124-8J hose with a 524-8CR fitting 16.50" Long (124J001-8CR0164)
>> (Oil cooler)
>> 124-8J hose with a 524-8CR fitting 27.00" Long (124J001-8CR0270)
>> (Oil cooler)
>>
>> Hose with Integral firesleeve
>> http://www.aircrafthose.com/images/pic1248j.jpg
>>
>> Hose with external firesleeve
>> http://www.aircrafthose.com/images/pic2650c.jpg
>>
>> William Curtis
>> http://nerv10.com/
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
Phil,
For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block to a
forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic attached). You
would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all the way
up the starter and alternator.
Brian
N104BS (160 hours)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
I'm not sure that's right Kelly.. Of course I have a hard time
following much of what Mr. Nuckolls has to say in his book. He's so
damn verbose and wants to share so much history that it's really hard to
follow his thought process. :) I wish he would write another book
called "Just the Facts" and leave the other 85% of the history, stories,
and unnecessary content out. But at least there is some good
information in there in the diagrams and in general. You just have to
get to it.
But that's just me....
So back to the topic...
On page 5-4 paragraph #2, he tells a story of when they used to own an
airport. A mechanic was reinstalling an engine that was overhauled. In
the process of connecting grounds, he didn't connect the ground strap
between the crankcase and the firewall.
When they tried to start the engine they only had smoke. Come to find
out the current tried to find a path back to the battery via throttle,
mixture, and p-lead shielding.
So it sounds like he is advocating a ground from the crankcase to the
airframe. But then in the next sentence, he says "Grounding the
crankcase to the battery directly eliminates this possibility."
He suggests grounding the crankcase with a heavy braid to the bolt
holding the Forest of Tabs on the firewall. Then from the Tabs to the
battery.
So it's open to your interpretation I guess.
I think I'm going to run a heavy ground from the battery to the tabs at
the panel. Then from the tabs, I'll run a ground wire to each wing tip
and one to the tail. FWF, I'm going to jump through the firewall (from
the tabs) and run a strap to the starter. Then a jumper from the
starter to the alternator.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for "sensitive"
electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter, battery, landing
light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through the aluminum
airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices just adds
complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt you will find
any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy loads. If you
still decide to go with separate ground leads for lighting and pitot
heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot lead to reduce
magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
wrote:
>> I'm in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
and in
>> my head.
>>
>>
>>
>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
really
>> don't like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would
prefer
>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is where I think I'm headed.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
forward to
>> the firewall.
>>
>> a. Attach this line to a "Forest of Tab" on the interior side
of the
>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to
this
>> spot.
>>
>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
FWF items
>> to the "Forest of Tab" on the FWF side.
>>
>> c. I'll also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>
>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the left
>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too.....
>>
>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot
heat,
>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc......
>>
>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the
>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>
>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on
the
>> right side.
>>
>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
a
>> "Forest of Tabs" located beside the battery box.
>>
>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
electronics. NAV,
>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
that end
>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>
>>
>>
>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be
a pain
>> to chase down, so that's the reason I'm really wanting to spend the
time
>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
Brian would like to recall the message, "RV10-List: Grounding Questions".
Message 8
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
Phil,
For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block to a
forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic attached). You
would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all the way
up the starter and alternator.
Brian
N104BS (160 hours)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
I'm not sure that's right Kelly.. Of course I have a hard time
following much of what Mr. Nuckolls has to say in his book. He's so
damn verbose and wants to share so much history that it's really hard to
follow his thought process. :) I wish he would write another book
called "Just the Facts" and leave the other 85% of the history, stories,
and unnecessary content out. But at least there is some good
information in there in the diagrams and in general. You just have to
get to it.
But that's just me....
So back to the topic...
On page 5-4 paragraph #2, he tells a story of when they used to own an
airport. A mechanic was reinstalling an engine that was overhauled. In
the process of connecting grounds, he didn't connect the ground strap
between the crankcase and the firewall.
When they tried to start the engine they only had smoke. Come to find
out the current tried to find a path back to the battery via throttle,
mixture, and p-lead shielding.
So it sounds like he is advocating a ground from the crankcase to the
airframe. But then in the next sentence, he says "Grounding the
crankcase to the battery directly eliminates this possibility."
He suggests grounding the crankcase with a heavy braid to the bolt
holding the Forest of Tabs on the firewall. Then from the Tabs to the
battery.
So it's open to your interpretation I guess.
I think I'm going to run a heavy ground from the battery to the tabs at
the panel. Then from the tabs, I'll run a ground wire to each wing tip
and one to the tail. FWF, I'm going to jump through the firewall (from
the tabs) and run a strap to the starter. Then a jumper from the
starter to the alternator.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for "sensitive"
electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter, battery, landing
light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through the aluminum
airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices just adds
complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt you will find
any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy loads. If you
still decide to go with separate ground leads for lighting and pitot
heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot lead to reduce
magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
wrote:
>> I'm in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
and in
>> my head.
>>
>>
>>
>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
really
>> don't like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would
prefer
>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is where I think I'm headed.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
forward to
>> the firewall.
>>
>> a. Attach this line to a "Forest of Tab" on the interior side
of the
>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to
this
>> spot.
>>
>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
FWF items
>> to the "Forest of Tab" on the FWF side.
>>
>> c. I'll also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>
>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the left
>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too.....
>>
>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot
heat,
>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc......
>>
>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the
>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>
>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on
the
>> right side.
>>
>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
a
>> "Forest of Tabs" located beside the battery box.
>>
>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
electronics. NAV,
>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
that end
>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>
>>
>>
>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be
a pain
>> to chase down, so that's the reason I'm really wanting to spend the
time
>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
Phil,
For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block to a
forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic attached). You
would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all the way
up the starter and alternator.
Brian
N104BS (160 hours)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
I'm not sure that's right Kelly.. Of course I have a hard time
following much of what Mr. Nuckolls has to say in his book. He's so
damn verbose and wants to share so much history that it's really hard to
follow his thought process. :) I wish he would write another book
called "Just the Facts" and leave the other 85% of the history, stories,
and unnecessary content out. But at least there is some good
information in there in the diagrams and in general. You just have to
get to it.
But that's just me....
So back to the topic...
On page 5-4 paragraph #2, he tells a story of when they used to own an
airport. A mechanic was reinstalling an engine that was overhauled. In
the process of connecting grounds, he didn't connect the ground strap
between the crankcase and the firewall.
When they tried to start the engine they only had smoke. Come to find
out the current tried to find a path back to the battery via throttle,
mixture, and p-lead shielding.
So it sounds like he is advocating a ground from the crankcase to the
airframe. But then in the next sentence, he says "Grounding the
crankcase to the battery directly eliminates this possibility."
He suggests grounding the crankcase with a heavy braid to the bolt
holding the Forest of Tabs on the firewall. Then from the Tabs to the
battery.
So it's open to your interpretation I guess.
I think I'm going to run a heavy ground from the battery to the tabs at
the panel. Then from the tabs, I'll run a ground wire to each wing tip
and one to the tail. FWF, I'm going to jump through the firewall (from
the tabs) and run a strap to the starter. Then a jumper from the
starter to the alternator.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for "sensitive"
electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter, battery, landing
light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through the aluminum
airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices just adds
complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt you will find
any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy loads. If you
still decide to go with separate ground leads for lighting and pitot
heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot lead to reduce
magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
wrote:
>> I'm in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
and in
>> my head.
>>
>>
>>
>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
really
>> don't like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would
prefer
>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is where I think I'm headed.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
forward to
>> the firewall.
>>
>> a. Attach this line to a "Forest of Tab" on the interior side
of the
>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to
this
>> spot.
>>
>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
FWF items
>> to the "Forest of Tab" on the FWF side.
>>
>> c. I'll also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>
>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the left
>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too.....
>>
>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot
heat,
>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc......
>>
>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the
>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>
>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on
the
>> right side.
>>
>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
a
>> "Forest of Tabs" located beside the battery box.
>>
>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
electronics. NAV,
>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
that end
>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>
>>
>>
>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be
a pain
>> to chase down, so that's the reason I'm really wanting to spend the
time
>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing |
William's quote is from a couple of years ago.
There are firesleeves on all the the aircrafthose and not all of the
Van's ones. You'll need to look at the price and add the price for a
firesleeve, should you opt to go that route. Van's has these exact hoses
on their demo planes.
Pascal
From: Jae Chang
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated
pricing
I was looking at the Firewall Forward kit and was looking at what
modifications people made in the past.
The hose kit is really really confusing. Prices are all over the map. As
far as I see, Van's prices have been sharply reduced. Aircrafthose.com's
prices have been sharply increased since William Curtis's email below -
just 20 days ago. Are hoses tied to the stock market indices to explain
the volatility?
I called aircrafthose.com today and these are the prices quoted to me.
$596 for 7 hoses
$556 without VA-119
Hmm, that's interesting. Okay, let me check Van's prices. This is from
their online catalog:
PART NUMBER TYPE OF LINE LENGTH &
DIAMETER PRICE Qty Shopping Cart
VA-119 MANIFOLD PRESSURE 21.50"x1/4" $17.00
VA-102 FUEL PRESSURE 15.50"x1/4" $15.50
VA-133 OIL PRESSURE 27.25"x1/4" $18.25
VA-135 OIL COOLER 16.50"x1/2" $64.40
VA-190 OIL COOLER 27.00"x1/2" $97.65
VA-138 FUEL SUPPLY 14.00"x3/8" $63.30
VA-189 FUEL LINE IO-540 25.50"x3/8" $100.50
Van's total is now only $376 from $545 in William's email below. Thus,
it's now much less of an easy decision. Are the upgraded hoses worth
paying 50% more than Van's prices?
Also, aircrafthose.com told me only 1 buyer in August and previously a
buyer in May for the rv-10 hoses, so not many people went this route it
seems.
FYI,
Jae
40533
W. Curtis wrote:
RV-10 builders nearing Firewall Forward or engine planning stage.
Having not ordered the Firewall Forward kit yet and just planning ahead,
I've looked at the plans and determined the following hoses are required
for the IO-540 installation:
VA-119 IE VMP HOSE (AN4, 21.5, AIR) $ 34.60
VA-102 FUEL PRES. HOSE (AN4, 15.5, FUEL) $ 58.20
VA-133 OIL PRESS HOSE (AN4, 27.25, OIL) $ 69.00
VA-138 FUEL SUPPLY HOSE (AN6, 14.0, FUEL) $ 69.65
VA-189 FUEL LINE IO-540 (AN6, 25.5, FUEL) $153.45
VA-135 OIL COOLER HOSE (AN8, 16.5, OIL) $ 66.85
VA-190 OIL COOLER HOSE (AN8, 27.0, OIL) $ 95.65
I'm not sure but I think the only Van's hose that is Teflon with the
integral firesleeve are the VA-138 and VA-189 hoses. I requested a quote
from Aircraft Hose (http://www.aircrafthose.com) for the above hoses ALL
Teflon with integral firesleeve except the (VA-119) MAP Hose. They came
back with and initial price of $491 for the set. The Van's price for the
set of hoses (not all Teflon with integral firesleeve) is about $545.
I've asked them if they could offer a greater discount if we could
arrange a group buy. I haven't heard back from them yet but wanted to
get you thinking.
Here are the specifics.
Stratoflex Integral Firesleeve Hoses for RV-10
111-4 hose with a 300-4D fitting 21.50" Long (111001-4CR0214) (IO-540
Man Press.)
124-4J hose with a 524-4CR fitting 15.50" Long (124J001-4CR0154)
(IO-540 Fuel Press.)
124-4J hose with a 524-4CR fitting 27.25" Long (124J001-4CR0272)
(IO-540 Oil Press.)
124-6J hose with a 524-6CR fitting 14.00" Long (124J001-6CR0140)
(IO-540 Fuel Supply)
124-6J hose with a 524-6CR fitting 25.50" Long (124J001-6CR0254)
(IO-540 Fuel Line)
124-8J hose with a 524-8CR fitting 16.50" Long (124J001-8CR0164) (Oil
cooler)
124-8J hose with a 524-8CR fitting 27.00" Long (124J001-8CR0270) (Oil
cooler)
Hose with Integral firesleeve
http://www.aircrafthose.com/images/pic1248j.jpg
Hose with external firesleeve
http://www.aircrafthose.com/images/pic2650c.jpg
William Curtis
http://nerv10.com/
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Air Cond |
no problem. at my age i like things big. robert
On Sep 1, 2009, at 5:00 AM, David Maib wrote:
> Sorry about the size of that photo in my previous post. I intended
> to resize it before sending, but somehow missed it.
>
> David Maib
> 40559
> flying
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:47 PM, David Maib wrote:
>
> Robert,
> I have not measured the drop from ambient, but I would guess 20
> degrees is about right. I talked to John Strain at Flightline AC a
> couple of months ago and mentioned that I did not think the "High"
> cabin fan position put out as much air as I expected it to. He said
> that the cabin fan actually has four positions. Lo, medium, medium
> hi, and hi. The individual that wired the units for Flightline AC
> made a command decision and wired the bottom three for the
> Flightline installation. So, I really only have Lo, medium, and
> medium hi. I don't know if John has corrected that on recent kits. I
> plan to have John help me rewire it one of these days when we get
> out to Oregon. He tells me it is not a difficult job, but getting to
> the area will be difficult. However, I installed access panels on
> each side of the upper forward tailcone, so I do have some AC access.
>
> <IMG_1610.JPG>
>
> Best regards,
> David Maib
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Robert Brunkenhoefer wrote:
>
> DAVE, I TOO HAVE THE SAME A/C SYSTEM. IT DOES NOT GET CHILLY IN THE
> CABIN ENGAGED ON A HOT CORPUS CHRISTI DAY, BUT IT KEEPS ME FROM
> FRYING. HOW LOW DOES YOUR SYSTEM TAKE YOU. I GET ABOUT 20 DEGREES
> DROP FROM AMBIENT OUT THE VENTS. ROBERT I KNOW, I LEFT MY CAPS ON.
> On Aug 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, David Maib wrote:
>
>> I have been flying with the Flightline AC system for 8 months in
>> Florida. Very happy with the system and cannot imagine being
>> without it. As Don Orrick notes, being able to have AC while
>> taxiing is really nice. We also have the Vertical Power Climate
>> Control System and it works great. Being able to run the cabin fan
>> without the compressor on is desirable, and Vertical Power is still
>> working on that. When we were building this airplane up in
>> Minnesota, my wife was not sure we needed to put in AC, even though
>> we knew we were moving south. She said "being hot and sweaty is
>> just part of the light airplane experience". She has officially
>> changed her tune and is really glad we installed AC.
>>
>> David Maib
>> 40559
>> Flying
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 6:23 PM, woxofswa wrote:
>>
>>
>> I am getting to the point where I need to fish or cut bait on the A/
>> C installation.
>>
>> Is there anyone out there with field experience of working systems?
>>
>> Any pros/cons between the two primary systems available?
>>
>> To those who've done it, would you do it again?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> --------
>> Myron Nelson
>> Mesa, AZ
>> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260521#260521
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> nbsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ">http://www.matronics--> http://forums.matronics.com
>> - List Contribution Web Site -Matt
>> Dralle, href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co==================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | AOPA magazine - Painted 10 |
Don
Great paint job very nice.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don McDonald
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AOPA magazine - Painted 10
Ok John.... even though you've already, first hand, seen the paint, here are
some actual pictures. BTW, it was great talking to you at the Van's
Homecoming...... I can't believe how much I DON'T know!
--- On Thu, 8/27/09, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
From: John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AOPA magazine
Humbly corrected. AOPA said 200 and I meant to say 228 with pictures for
more than 128 painted birds. The quality is sure improving, as are the
number of well financed purchasers of Pro built 10's. I love Newman &
Combs.
John Cox
_____
From: Rene Felker
Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AOPA magazine
...... Flying 128/ Sold 983 leaving 755......
Looks like a typo, I think you meant 228 flying and that is 28 above what
Vans shows. I am guessing that your number is more accurate since Vans only
reports what they are told by the builders and not all builders tell Vans
that they are flying.
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AOPA magazine
Dr. Peeler holds a recent Commercial with Instrument ticket and has
authorizations for TBMs and T-33 but doesn't show a Repairman cert for
his fine AOPA magazined Raddatz built aircraft. This is similar to
Scott Gustafson's and ten other Raddatz builds that are flying. With
the final interpretation about to be chiseled in granite by the Fed, the
51% rule is allowing many RV-10s built by Professionals to be purchased
and flown by individuals of means and the passion to join this group of
flying RV-10's. As Tony Soprano would say on the subject of caring not
in the feeding a maintenance of such birds.... Forgetaboutit. There are
many who say they did the work of others or color their prose a bit to
get the airworthiness.
It was light years ago that a ragtag group of Yahoo fans migrated here
in hopes of a builder forum for RV-10 builders.
Our insurance pool will soon be made up of the wide swath of interested
RV-10 operators (some not builders). Unless an insurance company
creates a better financial deal for an improved gene pool of "builder"
aircraft, we become a product of our own success with well financed Dr.
Peeler's of the RV-10 community.
AOPA reported in the article 100 completed and another 1000 sold. My
numbers are just a bit off that projection. Flying 128/ Sold 983 leaving
755 of us out in the cold lusting after the first group that's flying
with all those stories and romantic getaways.
I concur that AOPA and EAA should both do an article on the raising and
feeding of the Olson clan while completing N104CD. Can anyone trump
Tim's accomplishments on the RV-10?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AOPA magazine
AOPA should have done the article on Tim.......
And wonder if Peeler got a repairman's certificate as well?
grumpy
N184JM
do not archive
On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:33 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I tend to get a bit irked when someone say "doesn't have the time
> or skills".
> Also, I saw a posting on another forum recently where someone
> said that they didn't build their plane, and that now they
> have some maintenance they need to do, but they don't know
> how to do it.
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> Dave Saylor wrote:
>> >>Peeler, a physician, said he doesn't have the time or skills to
>> build an airplane like the RV-10, which requires at least 2,000
>> hours for a veteran builder to assemble. But he says he complies
>> with the letter and spirit of the regulations by only using his
>> aircraft for private, noncommercial purposes and hiring
>> professional mechanics to perform the required inspections.
>> "I'm not the builder of this airplane and I don't pretend to be,"
>> he said.<<
>>
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=430
WP
>> He pretended to be the builder when he applied for the AW cert, and
>> had his signature notarized stating he was the builder on the
>> 8130-12. He may have some 'splain'n to do...
>> Dave Saylor
>> AirCrafters LLC
>> 140 Aviation Way
>> Watsonville, CA 95076
>> 831-722-9141 Shop
>> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
>
>
>
>
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing |
I was the guy who bought the hose kit from aircrafthose on May 6th:
111417-4S0214 21.50" 111-4 hose with a 300-4D fittings
124J001-4CR0154 15.50" 124-4J hose with 524-4CR fittings
124J001-4CR0272 27.25" 124-4J hose with 524-4CR fittings
124J001-6CR0140 14.00" 124-6J hose with 524-6CR fittings
124J002-6CR0254 25.50" 124-6J hose with one 524-6CR fitting and one 528-6CR
fitting
124J001-8CR0164 16.50" 124-8J hose with 524-8CR fittings Oil cooler
124J001-8CR0270 27.00" 124-8J hose with 524-8CR fittings Oil cooler
Price was $596.37
William, thanks again for posting the hose info on your site!
Lenny
#40804
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260862#260862
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Here's my take: A heavy ground from the battery to the firewall, and
from the firewall to the engine case eliminates any grounding issues
down the road. I have seen corrosion caused by electrolysis in aluminum
structures .... typically where the rivets or screws are ... from
currents in the ground. I have also seen the braided ground straps
deteriorate from vibration and electrolysis ..... but it did take a long
time. In the scheme of things, the additional ground weight is minimal,
and the absence of grounding problems in the future outweighs the weight
penalty. The 'airframe ground' problems show up when your battery is
old on a cold morning and you need to depart quickly. It is true that
most factory built aircraft use the airframe as ground ..... but the
battery is usually hanging on the firewall, not stuck back behind the
baggage compartment like RV-10s and Cherokees. I'm running both power
and ground from the battery to bulkhead feedthroughs from Waytek, and a
short cable from there to the engine case (ground) and to the starter
(power) through the start solenoid. There will be a heavy cable (but
smaller than the above power/ground) to the subpanel where everything is
connected on terminal strips. Both power and ground. Nav lights will
use airframe ground. Electronics in the tail will have power and ground
fed from the sub-panel terminal strips.
Linn
Brian wrote:
> Phil,
>
> For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block to a
> forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic attached). You
> would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all the way
> up the starter and alternator.
>
> Brian
> N104BS (160 hours)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
Thanks Brian...
What did you run from the battery to cabin-side of the firewall?
Also, do you have all of your grounds coming back to the tabs?
AKA: Wingtips and Tailcone too.
Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian [mailto:rv10builder@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
Phil,
For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block to
a forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic attached).
You would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all
the way up the starter and alternator.
Brian
N104BS (160 hours)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
I'm not sure that's right Kelly.. Of course I have a hard time
following much of what Mr. Nuckolls has to say in his book. He's so
damn verbose and wants to share so much history that it's really hard to
follow his thought process. :) I wish he would write another book
called "Just the Facts" and leave the other 85% of the history, stories,
and unnecessary content out. But at least there is some good
information in there in the diagrams and in general. You just have to
get to it.
But that's just me....
So back to the topic...
On page 5-4 paragraph #2, he tells a story of when they used to own an
airport. A mechanic was reinstalling an engine that was overhauled. In
the process of connecting grounds, he didn't connect the ground strap
between the crankcase and the firewall.
When they tried to start the engine they only had smoke. Come to find
out the current tried to find a path back to the battery via throttle,
mixture, and p-lead shielding.
So it sounds like he is advocating a ground from the crankcase to the
airframe. But then in the next sentence, he says "Grounding the
crankcase to the battery directly eliminates this possibility."
He suggests grounding the crankcase with a heavy braid to the bolt
holding the Forest of Tabs on the firewall. Then from the Tabs to the
battery.
So it's open to your interpretation I guess.
I think I'm going to run a heavy ground from the battery to the tabs at
the panel. Then from the tabs, I'll run a ground wire to each wing tip
and one to the tail. FWF, I'm going to jump through the firewall (from
the tabs) and run a strap to the starter. Then a jumper from the
starter to the alternator.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for "sensitive"
electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter, battery, landing
light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through the aluminum
airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices just adds
complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt you will find
any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy loads. If you
still decide to go with separate ground leads for lighting and pitot
heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot lead to reduce
magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
wrote:
>> I'm in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
and in
>> my head.
>>
>>
>>
>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
really
>> don't like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would
prefer
>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is where I think I'm headed.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
forward to
>> the firewall.
>>
>> a. Attach this line to a "Forest of Tab" on the interior side
of the
>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to
this
>> spot.
>>
>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
FWF items
>> to the "Forest of Tab" on the FWF side.
>>
>> c. I'll also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>
>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the left
>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too.....
>>
>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot
heat,
>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc......
>>
>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the
>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>
>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on
the
>> right side.
>>
>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
a
>> "Forest of Tabs" located beside the battery box.
>>
>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
electronics. NAV,
>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
that end
>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>
>>
>>
>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be
a pain
>> to chase down, so that's the reason I'm really wanting to spend the
time
>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
another thought...
There is a longeron that runs up the right side of the plane... from
the aft side of the baggage compartment to the firewall. My plan is
to run a ground strap from the battery to the aft end of that...
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Routing out my left window >:
On Aug 30, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Perry, Phil wrote:
> I=92m in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
> and in my head.
>
> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
> really don=92t like the idea of routing current through the airframe
> and would prefer to ground everything back to a block.
>
> Here is where I think I=92m headed.
>
> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
> forward to the firewall.
> a. Attach this line to a =93Forest of Tab=94 on the interior
side
> of the firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage
> compartment to this spot.
> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
> FWF items to the =93Forest of Tab=94 on the FWF side.
> c. I=92ll also ground the crank case at this point too.
>
> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
> the left wing tip and install a Forest out there too=85..
> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing,
> Pitot heat, Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc=85=85
>
> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
> the right wing tip and install a Forest.
> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items
> on the right side.
>
> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
> a =93Forest of Tabs=94 located beside the battery box.
> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
> electronics. NAV, Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other
> electronic devices that end up aft of the baggage compartment.
>
> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can
> be a pain to chase down, so that=92s the reason I=92m really wanting
to
> spend the time designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to
> trace.
>
> Thanks,
> Phil
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Every Mooney of more than 180hp has the battery(s)behind the baggage
compartment, and uses local airframe grounds. Some Cessnas also have
battery in back and use local grounds. As well as the mentioned Pipers.
Never have seen any corrosion anywhere but the actual cable connections,
which should be inspected annually. Pipers had problems with aluminum
battery cables on positive side of circuit.
Linn Walters wrote:
>
> Here's my take: A heavy ground from the battery to the firewall, and
> from the firewall to the engine case eliminates any grounding issues
> down the road. I have seen corrosion caused by electrolysis in aluminum
> structures .... typically where the rivets or screws are ... from
> currents in the ground. I have also seen the braided ground straps
> deteriorate from vibration and electrolysis ..... but it did take a long
> time. In the scheme of things, the additional ground weight is minimal,
> and the absence of grounding problems in the future outweighs the weight
> penalty. The 'airframe ground' problems show up when your battery is
> old on a cold morning and you need to depart quickly. It is true that
> most factory built aircraft use the airframe as ground ..... but the
> battery is usually hanging on the firewall, not stuck back behind the
> baggage compartment like RV-10s and Cherokees. I'm running both power
> and ground from the battery to bulkhead feedthroughs from Waytek, and a
> short cable from there to the engine case (ground) and to the starter
> (power) through the start solenoid. There will be a heavy cable (but
> smaller than the above power/ground) to the subpanel where everything is
> connected on terminal strips. Both power and ground. Nav lights will
> use airframe ground. Electronics in the tail will have power and ground
> fed from the sub-panel terminal strips.
> Linn
>
> Brian wrote:
>> Phil,
>>
>> For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block
>> to a
>> forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic
>> attached). You
>> would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all
>> the way
>> up the starter and alternator.
>>
>> Brian
>> N104BS (160 hours)
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Phil,
There are two issues. Yes, the engine needs a very stout ground cable to
the firewall, because the engine mounts make a poor grounding path. No,
you don't need a ground cable from your firewall ground point to the
battery. The airframe will serve very well. Just for example, my Mooney
has a braided ground from the engine crankcase to the firewall...no
forest of tabs, just a single bolt and washer connection at firewall.
ALL grounds are to the airframe. Not as good as the single point of
grounding for electronics. But more than sufficient for all your
lighting and your starter. My battery is behind baggage compartment,
just like RV-10. Ground is to an airframe rib with bolt and washer.
Carries all 300 amps or so during starting, with very little resistance.
Virtually all certificated metal skinned aircraft do the same, because
it works, is lightweight and maintenance free. Including the Piper
Cherokee he mentions reducing battery size. Other than that mention,
none of his verbiage really addresses the rear mount battery in a metal
airframe. He mostly talks about batteries on the firewall and composite
aircraft. Yes, you would run a cable from battery to firewall if it is
only 18". The subject has come up on his email list.
But you are free to install the extra heavy #4 cable all the way back to
your battery if you want. Just money, weight and space.
A quote from Bob on his email list a couple years ago:
">1) For each battery (minus) it's shown to connect locally to the
>airframe. Providing that good, secure connections with 4AWG (or welding
>cable) are done locally, does this negate the need to run heavy (2AWG or
>4AWG) ground cabling forward?
Yes.
>2) Relates to question 1. If it's necessary to run ground cabling
>forward, is it acceptable/reasonable to instead: a) Connect the battery
>minus posts with a single, short welding cable, and b) Connect another
>single short welding cable for local ground, and c) continue with a
single
>large (2AWG or 4AWG) cable forward to connect to the Brass Firewall Thru
>Bolt for the Firewall, Panel and downstream Avionics ground busses?
(This
>seems overdone, redundant and heavy to me, but I just want to be sure I
>haven't missed something here)
There's a boatload of ol' mechanic's tales out there about
the hazards of local grounds in aircraft. Aside from the obvious
and predictable issues involving ground loops (when particularly
vulnerable systems share grounds spread out over the airframe),
there are no great concerns for using the airframe as a primary
ground structure. There's some value in considering the used of
a separate ground wire for tubular structures where we've see
some instances of structure getting magnetized due to high current
flow . . . but that doesn't apply to you."
Perry, Phil wrote:
>
> I'm not sure that's right Kelly.. Of course I have a hard time
> following much of what Mr. Nuckolls has to say in his book. He's so
> damn verbose and wants to share so much history that it's really hard to
> follow his thought process. :) I wish he would write another book
> called "Just the Facts" and leave the other 85% of the history, stories,
> and unnecessary content out. But at least there is some good
> information in there in the diagrams and in general. You just have to
> get to it.
>
> But that's just me....
>
> So back to the topic...
>
> On page 5-4 paragraph #2, he tells a story of when they used to own an
> airport. A mechanic was reinstalling an engine that was overhauled. In
> the process of connecting grounds, he didn't connect the ground strap
> between the crankcase and the firewall.
>
> When they tried to start the engine they only had smoke. Come to find
> out the current tried to find a path back to the battery via throttle,
> mixture, and p-lead shielding.
>
> So it sounds like he is advocating a ground from the crankcase to the
> airframe. But then in the next sentence, he says "Grounding the
> crankcase to the battery directly eliminates this possibility."
>
> He suggests grounding the crankcase with a heavy braid to the bolt
> holding the Forest of Tabs on the firewall. Then from the Tabs to the
> battery.
>
> So it's open to your interpretation I guess.
>
> I think I'm going to run a heavy ground from the battery to the tabs at
> the panel. Then from the tabs, I'll run a ground wire to each wing tip
> and one to the tail. FWF, I'm going to jump through the firewall (from
> the tabs) and run a strap to the starter. Then a jumper from the
> starter to the alternator.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:36 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
>
>
> IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for "sensitive"
>
> electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter, battery, landing
> light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through the aluminum
> airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices just adds
> complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt you will find
> any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy loads. If you
> still decide to go with separate ground leads for lighting and pitot
> heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot lead to reduce
> magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
>
> Rob Kermanj wrote:
>>
>> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
>> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
>> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
>> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
> wrote:
>>> I'm in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
> and in
>>> my head.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
> really
>>> don't like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would
> prefer
>>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is where I think I'm headed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
> forward to
>>> the firewall.
>>>
>>> a. Attach this line to a "Forest of Tab" on the interior side
> of the
>>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to
> this
>>> spot.
>>>
>>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
> FWF items
>>> to the "Forest of Tab" on the FWF side.
>>>
>>> c. I'll also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>>
>>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
> the left
>>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too.....
>>>
>>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot
> heat,
>>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc......
>>>
>>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
> the
>>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>>
>>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on
> the
>>> right side.
>>>
>>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
> a
>>> "Forest of Tabs" located beside the battery box.
>>>
>>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
> electronics. NAV,
>>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
> that end
>>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be
> a pain
>>> to chase down, so that's the reason I'm really wanting to spend the
> time
>>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing |
You are right. For some reason I thought William's email was just 20
days ago, but actually, it was 20 days + 3 years ago. My bad! I think
i'll just stick with Van's now cheaper hoses.
Amazing, i think it's the only aviation part I have come across that has
seen price deflation.
Jae
Pascal wrote:
> William's quote is from a couple of years ago.
> There are firesleeves on all the the aircrafthose and not all of the
> Van's ones. You'll need to look at the price and add the price for a
> firesleeve, should you opt to go that route. Van's has these exact
> hoses on their demo planes.
> Pascal
>
> *
>
> *
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Brian wrote:
> Brian would like to recall the message, "RV10-List: Grounding Questions".
Hmmm. Would this recall work with politicians???
Linn
do not archive!
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing |
If you have ever handled integral firesleeve teflon hose and compared it
to ordinary 303 hose with external firesleeve, there is no comparison.
Pricewise, when you do apples to apples comparison, the integral
firesleeve hose set will cost you about $100 more to have hose that will
last as long as the airframe. Vans hoses you will need to replace every
7-10 years, minimum.
Lenny Iszak wrote:
>
> I was the guy who bought the hose kit from aircrafthose on May 6th:
>
> 111417-4S0214 21.50" 111-4 hose with a 300-4D fittings
> 124J001-4CR0154 15.50" 124-4J hose with 524-4CR fittings
> 124J001-4CR0272 27.25" 124-4J hose with 524-4CR fittings
> 124J001-6CR0140 14.00" 124-6J hose with 524-6CR fittings
> 124J002-6CR0254 25.50" 124-6J hose with one 524-6CR fitting and one 528-6CR
fitting
> 124J001-8CR0164 16.50" 124-8J hose with 524-8CR fittings Oil cooler
> 124J001-8CR0270 27.00" 124-8J hose with 524-8CR fittings Oil cooler
>
> Price was $596.37
>
> William, thanks again for posting the hose info on your site!
>
> Lenny
> #40804
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260862#260862
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Hose kit -possible group buy - Updated pricing |
Yes, but you will replace those hoses from Vans at least twice as
often as they are just Aeroquip 303 or equivalent. You won't have as
much firesleeve protection. IMHO, all fuel and oil hoses forward of
firewall should be firesleeved. It is much more difficult to add after
the fittings have been installed. Your choice.
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Jae Chang<jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com> wrote:
>
> You are right. For some reason I thought William's email was just 20 days
> ago, but actually, it was 20 days + 3 years ago. My bad! I think i'll just
> stick with Van's now cheaper hoses.
>
> Amazing, i think it's the only aviation part I have come across that has
> seen price deflation.
>
> Jae
>
> Pascal wrote:
>>
>> William's quote is from a couple of years ago.
>> There are firesleeves on all the the aircrafthose and not all of the
>> Van's ones. You'll need to look at the price and add the price for a
>> firesleeve, should you opt to go that route. Van's has these exact hoses on
>> their demo planes.
>> Pascal
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
I chose to run a #2 cable up to the firewall, same as the positive. I'm running
it though the firewall with a piece of 3/8ths all thread rod so it is acting
as the single point ground for my panel, airframe, and engine. I'll still
ground non sensitive equipment like Nav lights at the source and I also have a
battery bus back by the batteries and anything there can ground right to the
battery.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
Every Mooney of more than 180hp has the battery(s)behind the baggage
compartment, and uses local airframe grounds. Some Cessnas also have
battery in back and use local grounds. As well as the mentioned Pipers.
Never have seen any corrosion anywhere but the actual cable connections,
which should be inspected annually. Pipers had problems with aluminum
battery cables on positive side of circuit.
Linn Walters wrote:
>
> Here's my take: A heavy ground from the battery to the firewall, and
> from the firewall to the engine case eliminates any grounding issues
> down the road. I have seen corrosion caused by electrolysis in aluminum
> structures .... typically where the rivets or screws are ... from
> currents in the ground. I have also seen the braided ground straps
> deteriorate from vibration and electrolysis ..... but it did take a long
> time. In the scheme of things, the additional ground weight is minimal,
> and the absence of grounding problems in the future outweighs the weight
> penalty. The 'airframe ground' problems show up when your battery is
> old on a cold morning and you need to depart quickly. It is true that
> most factory built aircraft use the airframe as ground ..... but the
> battery is usually hanging on the firewall, not stuck back behind the
> baggage compartment like RV-10s and Cherokees. I'm running both power
> and ground from the battery to bulkhead feedthroughs from Waytek, and a
> short cable from there to the engine case (ground) and to the starter
> (power) through the start solenoid. There will be a heavy cable (but
> smaller than the above power/ground) to the subpanel where everything is
> connected on terminal strips. Both power and ground. Nav lights will
> use airframe ground. Electronics in the tail will have power and ground
> fed from the sub-panel terminal strips.
> Linn
>
> Brian wrote:
>> Phil,
>>
>> For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block
>> to a
>> forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic
>> attached). You
>> would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all
>> the way
>> up the starter and alternator.
>>
>> Brian
>> N104BS (160 hours)
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Guys/Gals,
I local grounded the battery's at the aft bulkhead...Ran independent grounds for
EVERYTHING to the tree at the firewall (no G loops by running independent grounds)
where the engine is grounded to the tree by the same size ( #2 welding
lead) cable use to deliver power to the starter. It works fine, don't mind f#*k
this.......it has worked this way on aircraft for years....and years....I only
local grounded the position lights...From my "flying" experience there is
no reason to run a #2 ground wire up front....
YMMV....and just the normal 2 cents......
Rick Sked
N246RS
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
I chose to run a #2 cable up to the firewall, same as the positive. I'm running
it though the firewall with a piece of 3/8ths all thread rod so it is acting
as the single point ground for my panel, airframe, and engine. I'll still
ground non sensitive equipment like Nav lights at the source and I also have a
battery bus back by the batteries and anything there can ground right to the
battery.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
Every Mooney of more than 180hp has the battery(s)behind the baggage
compartment, and uses local airframe grounds. Some Cessnas also have
battery in back and use local grounds. As well as the mentioned Pipers.
Never have seen any corrosion anywhere but the actual cable connections,
which should be inspected annually. Pipers had problems with aluminum
battery cables on positive side of circuit.
Linn Walters wrote:
>
> Here's my take: A heavy ground from the battery to the firewall, and
> from the firewall to the engine case eliminates any grounding issues
> down the road. I have seen corrosion caused by electrolysis in aluminum
> structures .... typically where the rivets or screws are ... from
> currents in the ground. I have also seen the braided ground straps
> deteriorate from vibration and electrolysis ..... but it did take a long
> time. In the scheme of things, the additional ground weight is minimal,
> and the absence of grounding problems in the future outweighs the weight
> penalty. The 'airframe ground' problems show up when your battery is
> old on a cold morning and you need to depart quickly. It is true that
> most factory built aircraft use the airframe as ground ..... but the
> battery is usually hanging on the firewall, not stuck back behind the
> baggage compartment like RV-10s and Cherokees. I'm running both power
> and ground from the battery to bulkhead feedthroughs from Waytek, and a
> short cable from there to the engine case (ground) and to the starter
> (power) through the start solenoid. There will be a heavy cable (but
> smaller than the above power/ground) to the subpanel where everything is
> connected on terminal strips. Both power and ground. Nav lights will
> use airframe ground. Electronics in the tail will have power and ground
> fed from the sub-panel terminal strips.
> Linn
>
> Brian wrote:
>> Phil,
>>
>> For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block
>> to a
>> forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic
>> attached). You
>> would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all
>> the way
>> up the starter and alternator.
>>
>> Brian
>> N104BS (160 hours)
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
I did just that Jeff. Seems to be working great.
Dick Sipp
N110DV
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Carpenter
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
another thought...
There is a longeron that runs up the right side of the plane... from
the aft side of the baggage compartment to the firewall. My plan is to
run a ground strap from the battery to the aft end of that...
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Routing out my left window >:
On Aug 30, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Perry, Phil wrote:
I=92m in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on
paper and in my head.
Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
really don=92t like the idea of routing current through the airframe and
would prefer to ground everything back to a block.
Here is where I think I=92m headed.
1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
forward to the firewall.
a. Attach this line to a =93Forest of Tab=94 on the interior
side of the firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage
compartment to this spot.
b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
FWF items to the =93Forest of Tab=94 on the FWF side.
c. I=92ll also ground the crank case at this point too.
2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the left wing tip and install a Forest out there too=85..
a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing,
Pitot heat, Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc=85=85
3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the right wing tip and install a Forest.
a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items
on the right side.
4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
a =93Forest of Tabs=94 located beside the battery box.
a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
electronics. NAV, Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other
electronic devices that end up aft of the baggage compartment.
How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can
be a pain to chase down, so that=92s the reason I=92m really wanting to
spend the time designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to
trace.
Thanks,
Phil
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 26
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| Subject: | Grounding Questions |
Opinions on this differ - that's O.K. I chose to run a #2 from the battery
negative post to the island of tabs on the cabin side of the firewall. The
carry through bolt terminates this lead and the braided lead to the
crankcase on the engine side. Remember that during cranking you are working
at a disadvantage; the battery isn't supplying 14V and the return path has
the starter solenoid and battery contactor in line adding additional circuit
path resistance (BTW - you may recall that in electronics 101 that current
flows from negative to positive). Having a complete low resistance path
helps deliver the current needed to crank the engine on a frosty morning.
As for the rest of my electronics they each have an appropriately sized
battery and corresponding battery return to a single point ground. The
weight of 18 gauge wire is negligible compared to other RV-10 options.
If I was starting from scratch I would likely go with CCA (copper clad
aluminum) instead of the stranded #2 to save weight but would still run the
lead.
FYI - here is a link to a presentation I prepared for my EAA chapter that
contains brief information for sizing wires (along with some other
information I hope you find useful).
http://www.eaa162.org/cmsmadesimple/uploads/experimental_electrical.pdf
FWIW - I'm a fan of 'lectric Bob (I'm a sparky in my day job).
Brian
N104BS (160 hours)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
Thanks Brian...
What did you run from the battery to cabin-side of the firewall?
Also, do you have all of your grounds coming back to the tabs?
AKA: Wingtips and Tailcone too.
Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian [mailto:rv10builder@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
Phil,
For FWF a single braided connection from the rear of the engine block to
a forest of tabs on the firewall is more than sufficient (pic attached).
You would only be adding unnecessary weight with a ground connection all
the way up the starter and alternator.
Brian
N104BS (160 hours)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
I'm not sure that's right Kelly.. Of course I have a hard time
following much of what Mr. Nuckolls has to say in his book. He's so
damn verbose and wants to share so much history that it's really hard to
follow his thought process. :) I wish he would write another book
called "Just the Facts" and leave the other 85% of the history, stories,
and unnecessary content out. But at least there is some good
information in there in the diagrams and in general. You just have to
get to it.
But that's just me....
So back to the topic...
On page 5-4 paragraph #2, he tells a story of when they used to own an
airport. A mechanic was reinstalling an engine that was overhauled. In
the process of connecting grounds, he didn't connect the ground strap
between the crankcase and the firewall.
When they tried to start the engine they only had smoke. Come to find
out the current tried to find a path back to the battery via throttle,
mixture, and p-lead shielding.
So it sounds like he is advocating a ground from the crankcase to the
airframe. But then in the next sentence, he says "Grounding the
crankcase to the battery directly eliminates this possibility."
He suggests grounding the crankcase with a heavy braid to the bolt
holding the Forest of Tabs on the firewall. Then from the Tabs to the
battery.
So it's open to your interpretation I guess.
I think I'm going to run a heavy ground from the battery to the tabs at
the panel. Then from the tabs, I'll run a ground wire to each wing tip
and one to the tail. FWF, I'm going to jump through the firewall (from
the tabs) and run a strap to the starter. Then a jumper from the
starter to the alternator.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grounding Questions
IIRC, Bob Nuckolls advocates only single point grounding for "sensitive"
electronics; that the heavy load stuff like starter, battery, landing
light, pitot heat are all fine being grounded through the aluminum
airframe. Running dedicated grounds for those devices just adds
complexity and weight for no discernible benefit. I doubt you will find
any TC aircraft with separate ground leads for the heavy loads. If you
still decide to go with separate ground leads for lighting and pitot
heat, they would benefit from twisting with the hot lead to reduce
magnetic influences on your compass, remote or otherwise.
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Have a dedicated ground for all your radio/gps equipment and ground
> everything including the headset jacks back to this point. Make sure
> that you use the washer with shoulder (comes with the jacks) to
> isolate the headset jacks from the airframe ground.
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Perry, Phil<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
wrote:
>> I'm in the process of trying to layout my electrical system on paper
and in
>> my head.
>>
>>
>>
>> Probably the best place to start is with the grounding system. I
really
>> don't like the idea of routing current through the airframe and would
prefer
>> to ground everything back to a block.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is where I think I'm headed.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery
forward to
>> the firewall.
>>
>> a. Attach this line to a "Forest of Tab" on the interior side
of the
>> firewall. Ground everything forward of the baggage compartment to
this
>> spot.
>>
>> b. Jump through the firewall on the other side and ground all
FWF items
>> to the "Forest of Tab" on the FWF side.
>>
>> c. I'll also ground the crank case at this point too.
>>
>> 2) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the left
>> wing tip and install a Forest out there too.....
>>
>> a. Install a similar setup for NAV, Strobe, Taxi/Landing, Pitot
heat,
>> Aileron Trim, Stall Warning, etc......
>>
>> 3) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
the
>> right wing tip and install a Forest.
>>
>> a. Repeat the left side setup of grounding on the wing items on
the
>> right side.
>>
>> 4) Run a line directly from the (-) Terminal of the battery to
a
>> "Forest of Tabs" located beside the battery box.
>>
>> a. This is for the point for grounding all tailcone
electronics. NAV,
>> Rudder Trim Servo, Elevator Servo, and any other electronic devices
that end
>> up aft of the baggage compartment.
>>
>>
>>
>> How have you designed your grounding system? Grounding issues can be
a pain
>> to chase down, so that's the reason I'm really wanting to spend the
time
>> designing a system that is pretty robust and easy to trace.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 27
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- Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the RV10-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV10
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV10-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV10-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV10-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV10-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV10-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV10-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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