---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/21/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:41 AM - Re: Painting The Baffling... (Richard Bibb) 2. 04:41 AM - Re: Riveting wing skin (Richard Bibb) 3. 05:20 AM - Re: Riveting wing skin (John Trollinger) 4. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Riveting wing skin (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 5. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: Riveting wing skin (Richard Bibb) 6. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: Riveting wing skin (Kelly McMullen) 7. 07:19 AM - Re: Painting The Baffling... (Dj Merrill) 8. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: Brake line exit holes (Perry, Phil) 9. 07:50 AM - Re: Painting The Baffling... (Richard Bibb) 10. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Brake line exit holes (Perry, Phil) 11. 12:01 PM - Re: Riveting wing skin (Bob Turner) 12. 01:01 PM - Re: Painting The Baffling... (nukeflyboy) 13. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: Painting The Baffling... (Geoff Combs) 14. 02:07 PM - operators handbook rv10 (Robert Brunkenhoefer) 15. 03:10 PM - Re: Rivet direction? Important comment!!!! (Don McDonald) 16. 03:43 PM - Re: Painting The Baffling... (Fred Williams, M.D.) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:58 AM PST US From: "Richard Bibb" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Painting The Baffling... I wouldn't worry about powder coating the baffling for reasons cited. I'm making modifications to my RV-4 baffling and am using 5052 cause I have some lying around and it sure is easier to form. I wouldn't anodize because, over-time you will have to take the stuff off a couple of times and it will get scratched. At least with paint or powder if you do scratch it you can touch it up easier than having to send the whole piece out for re-anodizing. That would get expensive with all the lot charges. Richard Bibb 972-771-2598 972-835-5979 mobile -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 10:02 PM rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Painting The Baffling... Dear Listers, I had been planning on black anodizing the various engine baffling pieces in keeping with my black-n-chrome theme under the hood. But I'm noticing that the pieces are getting pretty scratched up during all of this extra fitting that's necessary for the IO-390. Since the pieces can't be run through a surfacer first because of the bends, I'm rethinking how good anodizing is really going to look. I know we're not suppose to power coat the 2024-T3 because the curing heat required can un-T3 the 2024, but does it really matter for the baffling? Its not really structural, per say. And if power coating is alright, what effects will the engine compartment heat have on the power coating? There's probably a high-temp power coat, but it would likely require a higher curing temp, and that get's us back to the first sentence of this paragraph... Power coating the baffling would definitely look pretty cool. Has anyone ever chromed their baffling? That would look super cool. Can you chrome 2024-T3? How much would that cost compared to power coating? Am I fussing too much under the hood? ;-) Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com FWF Baffling, Intake, and Governor... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:58 AM PST US From: "Richard Bibb" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Riveting wing skin I haven't riveted skins on a -10 wing yet but on my RV-4 I did one in the stand and one on a table. I preferred the table as gravity held the rivets in place before I got the gun on them and I avoided picking up all that fell on the floor. Also, there used to be a school of thought to slightly heat the skins before final riveting so that, as they cooled post riveting, they would be tighter. Not sure if that actually works but I did rivet one set of -4 wings horizontal on saw horses outside in the sun and they turned out nice. Had to be careful not to get burned as the skins sure got warm in a hurry. Since you are in Arizona you might not want to try that. Obviously it turns out to be a personal preference and at least no one has started a flame war on this one yet - skirmish perhaps but hardly classified as a minor engagement let alone full hostilities. Richard Bibb 972-771-2598 972-835-5979 mobile -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of woxofswa Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: RV10-List: Riveting wing skin I'm close to riveting my first QB wing skin. Is the consensus of the brain trust that it is easier to do flat on a table or upright in a stand? Thanks in advance. -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263994#263994 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Riveting wing skin From: John Trollinger Wow, did not mean to get you all riled up, I just was trying to let they gu y know that there is not one approach to doing this. I myself set it up righ t on the bench, but as you can see other people did it other ways. I was trying to let the builder know that it is ok to try out different technique s and find out which worked best for them. The one thing that is nice about this group is they all bring their unique way of solving a problem and give other builders options that they might not have thought of or tried. On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 8:33 PM, wrote: > Oh that's helpful!!! "Good luck" WTF!! I wasn't going to respond, but > A-hole check intervention. I did it solo on the wing stand....worked > great... Take your time.....for those still building this is sure fun to > fly...keep pounding...and wiring and painting. Etc., etc,..... > > Rick S. > N246RS > Flying > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > ------------------------------ > *From*: John Trollinger > *Date*: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:07:03 -0400 > *To*: > *Subject*: Re: RV10-List: Riveting wing skin > good luck getting a consensus here.. everyone has what works for them and > t= hat is different for everyone.=C2- Try a way and see if it wor ks well > for= you, if not, try another way. > > John > > On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Bill Watson wro > te: > > I did my wing upright, singlehanded. =C2-Worked well > > <= span> -- Sent from my Palm Pr=C4=93 > > ------------------------------ > Bob Leffler wrote: > > --> RV10-List me= ssage posted by: "Bob Leffler" > > I did mine upright in the wing stand. > > Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of woxofswa > Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:58 PM > To: rv10-l= ist@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Riveting wing skin > > > > I'm close to riveting my first QB wing skin. > > Is the consensus of the brain trust that it is easier to do flat on a t > able > or upright in a stand? > > Thanks in advance. > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D263994#263= 994 > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > * get=3D"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List tp://fo rums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution * > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:14 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Riveting wing skin Acutally, I thought I discerned a pattern - on the bench for 2 people and upright for 1. FWIW, I can't imagine how 1 person does it on the bench but I'm sure someone did. Another thanks to Deems for the safety wire pics. I forgot where I saw that but it worked like a charm. Like so many jobs, it's very satisfying once it's done. Note that you may need to file down the leading edge of the skin just a bit so that it clears the leading edge skins when it's riveted on. Bill woxofswa wrote: > > Thanks for the input. I didn't realize that I had breached "Ginger vs Mary Ann territory. :) > > For some silly reason I thought there would be a clear cut logic based reason for one particular way. Maybe I'll do one one way and the other the other and give a detailed pro/con for the next schmuck down the line. > > On second thought, the safety wire in the stand sounds intriguing. > > That's it. I'm going to do it on the stand. (unless I do it on the table). > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=264077#264077 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:28 AM PST US From: "Richard Bibb" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Riveting wing skin Actually I was able to do my RV-4 wings by myself on the bench. I have long arms and was able to reach from the rear spar to the front to buck the row of rivets where the skin attaches to the front spar. It wasn't really all that much of a stretch as I recall. I don't think the -10 wing will be all that different in that regard. Richard Bibb 972-771-2598 972-835-5979 mobile -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mauledriver Watson Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:22 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Riveting wing skin Acutally, I thought I discerned a pattern - on the bench for 2 people and upright for 1. FWIW, I can't imagine how 1 person does it on the bench but I'm sure someone did. Another thanks to Deems for the safety wire pics. I forgot where I saw that but it worked like a charm. Like so many jobs, it's very satisfying once it's done. Note that you may need to file down the leading edge of the skin just a bit so that it clears the leading edge skins when it's riveted on. Bill woxofswa wrote: > > Thanks for the input. I didn't realize that I had breached "Ginger vs Mary Ann territory. :) > > For some silly reason I thought there would be a clear cut logic based reason for one particular way. Maybe I'll do one one way and the other the other and give a detailed pro/con for the next schmuck down the line. > > On second thought, the safety wire in the stand sounds intriguing. > > That's it. I'm going to do it on the stand. (unless I do it on the table). > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=264077#264077 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Riveting wing skin From: Kelly McMullen I wish someone would summarize the old primer wars arguments(reader's digest style, so to speak), just so that the newbies, and not so newbies could decide which way to go, without a need to relight the arguments, and whether those of us that didn't bother to research could decide whether we need to give up our corroding parts carcass and start over. ;-)) On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 12:29 AM, woxofswa wrote: > > Thanks for the input. I didn't realize that I had breached "Ginger vs Mary Ann territory. :) > > For some silly reason I thought there would be a clear cut logic based reason for one particular way. Maybe I'll do one one way and the other the other and give a detailed pro/con for the next schmuck down the line. > > On second thought, the safety wire in the stand sounds intriguing. > > That's it. I'm going to do it on the stand. (unless I do it on the table). > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=264077#264077 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:18 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Painting The Baffling... From: Dj Merrill On 09/20/2009 11:02 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: > Has anyone ever chromed their baffling? That would look super cool. Can you chrome 2024-T3? How much would that cost compared to power coating? > > I've seen chrome colored baffling. I can't tell you if it was chromed, or just chrome colored paint, but it did indeed look super cool. :-) -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Brake line exit holes From: "Perry, Phil" I don't have my documentation with me this morning and I can't seem to find Section 4 on Tim's site. Does anyone know if the main gear mounts are 4130? I think I've found an aircraft welder who can patch the hole for me, but I'd like to be certain of the material first. Thanks, Phil -----Original Message----- From: Phil White [mailto:philwhite9@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Brake line exit holes Phil: We Phil's can hang together, as we make the same mistakes. Look at the photo attached, which shows how I put a small piece of .035 or .041 with the correct smaller hole in it, on top of the gear leg flange, put the fitting thru, and 'twas fixed. the slightly oversize hole in that flange won't cause a problem. Can't recall whether there is a washer on the underside or not, but the fitting is solidly attached to the plane now. Phil White #40220 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=264005#264005 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/brake_line_hole_patch_sml_198.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:35 AM PST US From: "Richard Bibb" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Painting The Baffling... You can't chrome aluminum.... Richard Bibb 972-771-2598 972-835-5979 mobile -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 9:09 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Painting The Baffling... On 09/20/2009 11:02 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: > Has anyone ever chromed their baffling? That would look super cool. Can you chrome 2024-T3? How much would that cost compared to power coating? > > I've seen chrome colored baffling. I can't tell you if it was chromed, or just chrome colored paint, but it did indeed look super cool. :-) -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:58 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Brake line exit holes From: "Perry, Phil" Got the answer for those who are wondering. (Or for those who might search the archives later.) 1) Yes, it is 4130. 2) Unfortunately the mount has been heat treated. So touching the thing with a welder is not a good idea for fear of weakening the structure. 3) Van's doesn't believe there is a structural issue with the hole, but they're running it by engineering to check. 4) The proposed solution from Van's is to insert a bushing into the hole and then a large flat washer on top to hold it into position. Once we reach a resolution, I'll send the fix for the archives. Phil -----Original Message----- From: Perry, Phil Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 9:27 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Brake line exit holes I don't have my documentation with me this morning and I can't seem to find Section 4 on Tim's site. Does anyone know if the main gear mounts are 4130? I think I've found an aircraft welder who can patch the hole for me, but I'd like to be certain of the material first. Thanks, Phil -----Original Message----- From: Phil White [mailto:philwhite9@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Brake line exit holes Phil: We Phil's can hang together, as we make the same mistakes. Look at the photo attached, which shows how I put a small piece of .035 or .041 with the correct smaller hole in it, on top of the gear leg flange, put the fitting thru, and 'twas fixed. the slightly oversize hole in that flange won't cause a problem. Can't recall whether there is a washer on the underside or not, but the fitting is solidly attached to the plane now. Phil White #40220 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=264005#264005 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/brake_line_hole_patch_sml_198.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:14 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Riveting wing skin From: "Bob Turner" I did it laid down horizontally; one person, short arms. Whatever works for you. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=264183#264183 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:14 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Painting The Baffling... From: "nukeflyboy" I used a clear coat on my RV-6 baffles and 9 flying years later it does not look that good. It has yellowed somewhat and the baffles do move around a bit leaving rub marks. I don't know if paint holds up better but it sounds like it. I recall that it took a lot of persuasion to get the baffles in place, which will scratch any paint. You also need to RTV the gaps. I don't know why you would need to remove the baffles frequently. I have not ever and don't anticipate it for another 10 years. Whatever you use needs to hold up to bugs and heat. The engine paint does not hold up well either (at least Lycoming gray) so it will look good under the hood for only a short time. Unless you are building a show plane I would not worry much about it. Few people will ever see it. If you are building a show plane then go nuts (like the rest) and get it gold plated. Or better yet use carbon fibers and make a pressure cowl, then gold plate that. Or better yet write a big check and have someone else do it. Sorry about that last comment - I could not help myself. -------- Dave Moore RV-6 flying RV-10 QB - cabin top/fiberglass hell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=264192#264192 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:53 PM PST US From: "Geoff Combs" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Painting The Baffling... I powder coated them after they were built. Not my idea but a have seen I few do this and they look great and seem to hold up well. Geoff Geoff Combs President Aerosport Modeling & Design 8090 Howe Industrial Parkway Canal Winchester, Ohio 43110 614-834-5227p 614-834-5230f www.aerosportmodeling.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nukeflyboy Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:00 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Painting The Baffling... I used a clear coat on my RV-6 baffles and 9 flying years later it does not look that good. It has yellowed somewhat and the baffles do move around a bit leaving rub marks. I don't know if paint holds up better but it sounds like it. I recall that it took a lot of persuasion to get the baffles in place, which will scratch any paint. You also need to RTV the gaps. I don't know why you would need to remove the baffles frequently. I have not ever and don't anticipate it for another 10 years. Whatever you use needs to hold up to bugs and heat. The engine paint does not hold up well either (at least Lycoming gray) so it will look good under the hood for only a short time. Unless you are building a show plane I would not worry much about it. Few people will ever see it. If you are building a show plane then go nuts (like the rest) and get it gold plated. Or better yet use carbon fibers and make a pressure cowl, then gold plate that. Or better yet write a big check and have someone else do it. Sorry about that last comment - I could not help myself. -------- Dave Moore RV-6 flying RV-10 QB - cabin top/fiberglass hell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=264192#264192 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:53 PM PST US From: Robert Brunkenhoefer Subject: RV10-List: operators handbook rv10 i have a io540 , afs 3500, trutrak dgsv, and 1 lightspeed ignition w/ backup alternator. does anyone out there have a handbook i can adapt for my little 661G ? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:45 PM PST US From: Don McDonald Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rivet direction? Important comment!!!! Gotcha Bob... Pascal already updated me on the list on Tim's site.=C2- Ma ybe we should provide some directions as to how their info can be updated. =C2- I know several that are on the list without updated info, and some t hat aren't even on the list. Thanks again, Don --- On Sat, 9/19/09, Bob Leffler wrote: From: Bob Leffler Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rivet direction? Important comment!!!! Don, =C2- A better idea is to encourage everyone to register on Tim=99s site, w here contact information is secure.=C2- I have no problem if any new RV-1 0 builder gives me a call looking to get questions answered, but I prefer t o not post my unlisted phone number on a public forum. =C2- Bob =C2- =C2- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Don McDonald Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 11:58 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rivet direction? Important comment!!!! =C2- Hey guys, can we follow the new guys lead (gosh, it's kind of nice NOT to b e the new guy anymore) and put our address and maybe a phone number on the bottom of each email.=C2- It sure would make it easier to contact each ot her for both direct questions/responses, and linking up on cross country fl ights.=C2- What do ya think? Don McDonald Lincoln CA=C2- LHM 916-801-8402 --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Sam Clark wrote: From: Sam Clark Subject: RV10-List: Rivet direction? Hello RV-10 builders, =C2- I have just started building.=C2- I pretty much jumped right in wi th both feet and it seems to be going well so far. I have finished the vert stab and am getting ready to start riveting the rudder.=C2- I started on the horizontal stab spars while waiting for a replacement rudder stiffener and have come across a bit of a perplexing question, how do I know which w ay to orient the rivets?=C2- It isn=99t really clear in the plans, I think they should probably all go the same direction so the side I counte rsink gives a pretty good clue to the direction a flush rivet goes.=C2- A m I correct in thinking they all go the same direction or does it matter? =C2- I know for the trailing edges I should alternate direction to help k eep things straight.=C2- Any insight would help, thanks in advance. =C2- Sam Clark Lexington Park, MD =C2- =C2- =C2-get=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?RV10-List=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.comblank rel=nofollo w>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- =C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://foru ms.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:30 PM PST US From: "Fred Williams, M.D." Subject: Re: RV10-List: Painting The Baffling... Matt; I don't see any reason why the baffling wouldn't hold up being powder coated. I think it would look cool. It also would be easier to clean the front dams where they get all bugged up. It's just money...... 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